HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
CONFIRMED MINUTES
OCTOBER 24-27, 2016
PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA, USA
These minutes are not final until confirmed by the Task Group in writing or by vote at a
subsequent meeting. Information herein does not constitute a communication or recommendation
from the Task Group and shall not be considered as such by any agency.
MONDAY, 24-OCT-16 to THURSDAY, 27-OCT-16
1.0
OPENING COMMENTS
1.1
Call to Order/Verbal Quorum Check – Open/Closed
The Heat Treating (HT) Task Group meeting was called to order at 8:00 a.m., 24-Oct-2016.
It was verified that only SUBSCRIBER MEMBERS were in attendance during the closed portion
of the meeting.
A quorum was established with the following representatives in attendance:
Subscriber Members/Participants Present (* Indicates Voting Member)
NAME
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Pedro
Nigel
Carolyn
Jd
Christopher
Alexandre
Craig
Karen
Martin
Jean-Luc
Mark
Melissa
Laurent
Moses
Greg
Peter
Brian
Gerald
Christina
Linnie
David
David
Jeff
Serge
Marc-André
Joe
William
Steven
Doug
Juan Antonio
Tim
Mark
Tom
Luis Gustavo
COMPANY NAME
Aranda
Ashby
Backus
Bodell
Borg
Bourgeois
Clasper
Dannis
Day
Dupain
Emerson
Facas
Geerts
Greasham
Haataja
Hammarbo
Harvey
Harvey
Heiman
Hook
Isenberg
Knack
Koss
Labbé
Lefebvre
Lundin
Macias
Mackenzie
Matson
Molina Aranda
Nance
Nigels
Norris
Pacheco
Eaton Aerospace
GKN Aerospace Filton
Boeing Company
309th Maintenance Wing
Gulfstream Aerospace Corporation
Bombardier
Spirit AeroSystems
BAE Systems - E & I
Honeywell Aerospace
SAFRAN Group
Rolls-Royce Corp
Pratt & Whitney
SONACA
Spirit AeroSystems
Bell Helicopter Textron
GKN Aerospace Sweden AB
Gulfstream
Triumph Group
Cessna Aircraft Company
Cessna Aircraft Company
Parker Aerospace Group
Eaton Aerospace
The Boeing Company
Héroux-Devtek Inc.
Héroux-Devtek Inc.
UTC Aerospace (Goodrich)
UTC Aerospace (Goodrich)
Pratt & Whitney Canada
Boeing
Airbus Defence and Space
Rockwell Collins
Parker Hannifin
UTC Aerospace (Goodrich)
Embraer SA
Chairperson
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Eddy
Earl
Sunder
Chris
Alex
Simon
Paul
Yuichi
Marc
Jeffrey
Jennifer
Cyril
Ronit
Robin
Grzegorz
Mark
Pham
Pruett
Rajan
Reilly
Richez
Scott
Slater
Sugiyama
Taillandier
Thyssen
Tromble
Vernault
Weisblit
Worley
Wryk
Zelle
Northrop Grumman Corp
Lockheed Martin Corporation
Raytheon
UTC Aerospace (Hamilton Sundstrand)
Airbus
BAE Systems MAI
Rockwell Collins
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries,Ltd
AIRBUS HELICOPTERS
GE Aviation
309th Maintenance Wing
SAFRAN Group
IAI - Israel Aerospace Industries
Parker Hannifin Corp
Rolls-Royce Control Systems
Pratt & Whitney
Other Members/Participants Present (* Indicates Voting Member)
NAME
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Roy
Abdul
Mark
Dan
Chavez
Sandra
Amy
Nathaniel
Andrew
Paul
Griff
Noel
Tim
Patrick
Nancy
Dennis
Jon
Donald
Jason
Charles
Chad
Joe
Tina
Kennia
Mark
Joshua
Jessica
Robert
Tammy
Vicki
Jeff
Jason
Bill
Roger
Nathan
Michael
COMPANY NAME
Adkins
Admani
Affoller
Antos
Arturo
Asset
Azzano
Baker
Bassett
Blaisdell
Braddock
Brady
Brooks
Brueckner
Brummel
Burkes
Butler
Camus
Chernick
Cho
Clark
Clarke
Corbin
Corona
Crevier
Crockett
Crone
Cvetichan
Davis
Delaney
DeToffol
Deysher
Dhillon
Dunn
Durham
Eddy
Braddock Metallurgical Daytona Beach
East Carolina Metal Treating, Inc.
Paulo - Kansas City
Canton Drop Forge
TIGHITCO LATINOAMERICA
Asco Aerospace
Arrow Gear Company
Jorgensen Forge
Aerospace Testing & Pyrometry
Astro Aluminum Treating
Braddock Metallurgical Inc
Paulo - Cleveland
Advanced Integration Technology
Aero Gear, Inc.
Aerospace Aluminum Processing, LLC
Winston Heat Treating Inc.
Exotic Metals Forming Company
Carpenter - Hartsville Operations
HTG/HiTech Aero
Alcoa, Inc.
Advanced Heat Treat Corp.
Eurotherm by Schneider Electric
Haynes International Inc
Brazonics Inc
Morton Manufacturing
Ellison Surface Technologies
Carpenter Technology
Paulo - Cleveland
Aurora Flight Sciences
Haynes International Inc
Heat Treating Services Unlimited,Inc.
Carpenter Technogoly
Senior Aerospace - Thermal Engineering
Bodycote Thermal Processing
Ipsen Inc.
Wyman-Gordon
Secretary
Vice Chairperson
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Gary
Edward
Bob
Kelly
Dennis
Jose
Chad
Tony
Susan
Lisa
Jonathan
Justin
Bertrand
Travis
Christoph
Brian
Brian
Christian
Richard
Ira
Bryan
Eisenman
Engelhard
Ferry
Frederick
Fried
Fuenes
Funderburk
Garcia
Generalovich
Golden
Gonzalez
Grice
Haenggi
Harding
Henkel
Hill
Hoffa
Holman
Houghton
Hughes
Jageman
Matt
Jeffries
Kailas
Kurt
Adeel
Zia
Keith
Stephan
Alexander
Jason
James
Jeremy
Max
Richard
Jondhale
Jungheim
Karim
Karim
Kastner
Kaunike
Klyuch
Kusher
LaFollette
Leetz
Levy
Lewis
David
Lindey
Johanna
Connie
Rich
David
Sarah
James
Patrick
David
Adam
Tom
Jeff
Ken
Mitch
Van
Jim
Jon
Jung
David
Joe Rico
Lisa
Mackey
Madsen
Mailes
Mansuetti
Mayeski
McCarthy
McKeagney
Miller
Murray
Neer
Nelson
Nelson
Nguyen
Oakes
O'Donnell
Ohm
Osenar
Osequera
*
*
*
*
*
Aero Gear
Solar Atmospheres Inc
FPM HEAT TREATING
Elgiloy Specialty Metals
Carpenter Technology
Vac Aero International Inc.
MMS Thermal Processing
Blanchard Metals Processing
Solar Atmospheres of Western PA Inc.
Metallurgical Processing, Inc.
Alcoa Fastening Systems & Rings
Braddock Metallurgical Inc
Inland NW Metallurgical Services Inc.
Barnes Aerospace
AMAG rolling
Canton Drop Forge
Carpenter Technology
B/E Aerospace
Spectrum Thermal Processing
general Dynamics OTS Garland
Modern Industries
Braddock Metallurgical Aerospace
Service, Inc.
Constellium Rolled Products,
Ravenswood WV
Modern Forge Indiana
Doctor Furnace InC.
Heat Treat Professional Inc.
Metal Finishing Co., Inc. Heat Treat
Carpenter Technology
Blades Technology Ltd
Braddock Metallurgical Daytona Beach
GeoCorp, Inc.
MMS Thermal Processing
Wyman Gordon
PCC Structurals
Nitrex Metal Technologies - Bodycote
Heat Treatmen
Continental Heat Treating / Quality Heat
Treating
Advanced Heat Treat Corp
Blanchard Metals Processing
Paulo
Rex Heat Treat
B/E Aerospace
Canton Drop Forge
Timken Aerospace
Carpenter Technology Corp.
Curtiss Wright Controls Inc Eng Systems
Astro Aluminum Treating
Continental Heat Treating
Bodycote Thermal Processing
Vac Aero International Inc.
Super Systems Inc
Heat Treatment Australia
Braddock Metallurgical Inc.
PAKO, Inc
Newton Heat Treating
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
*
*
*
*
*
*
Marcus
Rozalia
Tim
Robert
Nels
John
Scott
Gordon
John
Michael
Barry
Chris
Richard
Stanley
Neil
Brian
Danielle
Elena
Noel
Anthony
Bill
Frank
Bob
Carol
Richard
Owens
Papp
Paradis
Peters
Plough
Popovich
Porter
Porterfield III
Quaglia
Quann
Rafan
Reed
Reitberger
Revers
Revis
Reynolds
Richesin
Ritoli
Rivera
Rizzo
Rogers
Saenz
Sartori
Schmidt
Seagrave
Kevin
Dave
Jeffrey
Elizabeth
Klaus
Chris
Steve
Gregg
Curtis
Anthony
Wayne
Robert
Stanley
Natia
Tom
Kevin
Wilfried
Aaron
Bryon
Brian
Seidel
Shonts
Sipf
Small
Sommerauer
Strickler
Sykes
Temple
Templeton
Tenaglier
Terwilliger
Thompson
Trull
Turmanidze
Valenti
VonScio
Weber
White
White
Yazumbek
*
*
*
*
PRI Staff Present
Mark
Marcel
Rob
Shaun
Lori
Kevin
Burval
Cuperman
Hoeth
Mbateng
McClain
Wetzel
Timken
Air Liquide US LP
Metallurgical Processing Inc.
RPeters Consulting, LLC.
Stack Metallurgical Services
Ultra-Electronics - Furnace Parts
Johnson Gage and Inspection, Inc.
Solar Atmospheres Inc
Bennett Heat Treating & Brazing Co.
Pacific Metallurgical Inc.
Dunkirk Specialty Steel
Ducommun AeroStructures Parsons
Stack Metallurgical
Senior Aerospace - Thermal Engineering
Heat Treating Services Unlimited, Inc.
Alcoa
Haynes International
Metallurgical Processing, Inc.
Carpenter Technology
Hercules Heat Treating Corp.
Alcoa/Arconic
Hi-Tech Metal Finishing
Accurate Brazing CT
ATI Forged Products - Cudahy Operations
Haynes International Inc.
Dunkirk Specialty Steel - Universal
Stainless
Bodycote McLean
Haynes International
Curtiss Wright Controls Inc Eng Systems
Bahler Schmiedetechnik GmbH & Co KG
Carpenter Technology
Industrial Furnace Specialties, Inc
Winston Heat Treating Inc.
GeoCorp, Inc.
General Metal Heat Treat
Vac-Met Inc.
Syracuse Heat Treating
Honeywell Aerospace
Solar Atmosphere
Specialty Steel Treating, Inc
Perryman Company
PFW Aerospace
Modern Industries
Pressure Technology
Modern Forge Indiana, LLC
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
1.2
Safety Information – Open/Closed
1.3
Review Code of Ethics (Ref: Attendees’ Guide) and Meeting Conduct – Open/Closed
1.4
Present the Antitrust Video (Only @ The First Open and First Closed Meeting of The Week for
Each Task Group) – Open/Closed
1.5
Review Agenda – Open/Closed
2.0
TASK GROUP TUTORIAL – CLOSED
Marcel Cuperman reviewed the Task Group tutorial and Subscriber Matrix.
A recommendation was made by Doug Matson of Boeing to have the Task Group tutorial review
only in the open meeting in future.
3.0
REVIEW DELEGATION STATUS – CLOSED
Staff Engineers Delegation, review of t-frm-07.
Delegation data was reviewed - Anne Allen met requirements in OP 1115 for maintaining
delegation (≥ 10% Oversight, ≥ 90%concurrence, ≥ 10 audits reviewed in the last 12 months).
Motion made by Mark Emerson and seconded by Jeff Thyssen to continue to delegate Anne
Allen. Motion Passed; Delegation Maintained.
Delegation data was reviewed- Jerry Aston met requirements in OP 1115 for maintaining
delegation (≥ 10% Oversight, ≥ 90%concurrence, ≥ 10 audits reviewed in the last 12 months).
Motion made by Doug Matson and seconded by Cyril Vernault to continue to delegate Jerry
Aston. Motion Passed; Delegation Maintained.
Delegation data was reviewed- Marcel Cuperman met requirements in OP 1115 for maintaining
delegation (≥ 10% Oversight, ≥ 90%concurrence, ≥ 10 audits reviewed in the last 12 months).
Motion made by Mark Emerson and seconded by Gerald Harvey to continue to delegate Marcel
Cuperman. Motion Passed; Delegation Maintained.
Delegation data was reviewed- Rob Hoeth met requirements in OP 1115 for maintaining
delegation (≥ 10% Oversight, ≥ 90%concurrence, ≥ 10 audits reviewed in the last 12 months).
Motion made by Doug Matson and seconded by Gerald Harvey to continue to delegate Rob
Hoeth. Motion Passed; Delegation Maintained.
Data was also reviewed- Mark Burval (Non-Delegated) met requirements in OP 1106 & 1114 for
a non-delegated Staff Engineer (100% Oversight, ≥ 90% concurrence).
For information only, Mark Burval Delegation status was reviewed. Continue Non-Delegated.
4.0
VOTING MEMBER UPDATES & COMPLIANCE WITH VOTING REQUIREMENTS – CLOSED
The following requests for additions or changes to voting membership were received and
confirmed by the Task Group Chairperson pending verification of PD1100 requirements:






Subscriber Voting Member: UVM
Supplier Voting Member: SVM
Alternate: ALT
Task Group Chairperson: CHR
Vice Chairperson: VCH
Secretary: SEC
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
First
Name
Surname
Company
Position:
Meetings Attended
(Month/Year)
(new / updated
role)
Paul
Slater
Rockwell Collins
ALT UVM (updated)
Feb-2016
Oct-2016
Tim
Nance
Rockwell Collins
UVM (new)
Feb-2016
Oct-2016
Greg
Haataja
Bell Helicopter
UVM (new)
Feb-2016
June-2016
David
Knack
Eaton
Aerospace
ALT UVM (new)
June-2016
Oct-2016
Serge
Labbe
Heroux-Devtek
ALT UVM (new)
Tom
Norris
UTC Aerospace
(Goodrich)
Chairperson
(reconfirmed)
June-2016
Oct-2016
The compliance to voting requirements per PD1100 were reviewed. Subscriber voting
participation was discussed with the appropriate Subscribers. No Subscribing voting rights were
removed by the Task Group / Task Group Chairperson at this time.
Extended discussion was held on revised Operating Procedures that seem to place very few
limits on Supplier voting member quantities. Concern was raised that Subscribers’
interest/checklist content may be overruled by suppliers. It was observed that PD1100 Section
7.5 allows the TG Chairperson to call for a “Subscriber Member Only Vote”.
5.0
AUDITOR CONSISTENCY – CLOSED
The standard data set was presented, along with the traditional +/- 4 data report.
A draft of an Evaluation Rating Metrics for auditors was described by the Chairperson, Tom
Norris. The Auditor Consistency Sub-Team to continue work on developing the scoring and
weighing system.
Discussion occurred on the value of performing a deep dive into individual NCRs once the +/- 4
are identified.
6.0
AUDITOR OBSERVATIONS – CLOSED
There were four Auditor Observation forms reviewed for the observations conducted since the
June 2016 meeting. Observer and supplier feedback were presented.
7.0
AUDITOR CONFERENCE – CLOSED
This year there was a new subject presented “Travel Safety”.
Discussion on categorizing checklists and writing NCRs. Point made by an Auditor that he was
being observed by the same person multiple times. Most observations are being done based on
geographic logistics.
Subscribers who want to post their contact information may do so by sending the information to
Marcel Cuperman, [email protected]. A list will be posted in eAuditNet in Public Documents
– Heat Treating (HT).
Towards the end of the 2016 Auditor Conference, auditors asked for time management guidance
from the Task Group on how to handle significant addition scope of work created by newly
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
released AC7101/4 Metallography checklist, which added a total of 16 Job Audits, each with at
least a dozen items to fill out.
8.0
GOOGLE CHAT SUBJECTS AND DISCUSSION – CLOSED
A summary of google chat subjects was presented by Marcel Cuperman. It was agreed that each
subject / question will be reviewed in the closed HTTG Meeting. Once agreement is reached by
the HTTG, the subject and the decision will be posted to HTTG Google Chat. Subjects that
require additional work by the HTTG will be noted in the minutes.
SAT Frequency and replacement of Thermocouples was discussed by HTTG and it was agreed
that an Auditor Advisory to be written to address this issue.
Motion made to Cyril Vernault and seconded by Doug Matson to write and issue an Auditor
advisory on SAT Frequency and replacement Thermocouples. Motion Passed.
ACTION ITEM: Cyril Vernault to write Auditor advisory on SAT frequency and replacement of
thermocouples. (Due Date: 1-Feb-2017).
9.0
FAILURE ANALYSIS & VCA DATA – CLOSED
The Staff Engineers presented the Audit Failure Data by Sector and Overall. The 2016 Failure
Rate for HTTG is at 2.3%. Failure Rate for the individual sectors are 3.6% for Americas, 0.9% for
Europe, and 0.6% for Asia.
There were nine VCAs performed this year to date compared to a total of eight VCAs for 2015.
There were two audits that have failed after a VCA audit in 2016.
10.0
APPEAL ANALYSIS & POSSIBLE APPEAL – CLOSED
There were a total of six appeals in 2016 of which three accepted and three denied.
Details of the appeals: One raised for NCR reclassification, two for Merit and three for Failure.
11.0
AUDIT ALLOCATION – CLOSED
Audit Allocation was conducted by those in attendance. Remaining allocation to be populated and
sent out by Sunder Rajan, as is typically done.
ACTION ITEM: Sunder Rajan to populate the audits that still require a reviewer on them and e-mail
to the HTTG Subscriber Voting Members to notify them what audits they should be reviewing.
(Due Date: Completed).
Considerable discussion on whether this activity should be addressed in Thursday Closed
meeting or even if it should be addressed in the meeting at all. No resolution made.
12.0
LAPSED ACCREDITATIONS – CLOSED
Suppliers that had lapsed accreditation in the last quarter was presented to HTTG. The task
group agreed to the extensions suggested by the Staff Engineers for these audits.
13.0
TASK GROUP CHAIR – CLOSED
Succession planning was discussed for the Chairperson.
Motion made by Cyril Vernault and seconded by Sunder Rajan to extend the existing term of
Chairperson Tom Norris by another year. Motion Passed Unanimously.
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
14.0
SAT & ALTERNATE SAT PRESENTATIONS – CLOSED
A discussion was held regarding SAT and Alternative SAT presentations given at the meeting
discussion centered around that they show different requirements. It was agreed The Doug
Matson and Cyril Vernault would review and produce a consistent approach.
ACTION ITEM: Sub-team of Doug Matson and Cyril Vernault will review the two presentations on
SAT and Alternative SAT to reconcile the differences and have one presentation with one
consistent approach. (Due Date: 1-Feb-2017).
15.0
LOAD THERMOCOUPLE DURING TUS – CLOSED
It was debriefed that during the 2016 Auditor Conference the topic of Load Thermocouples was
discussed. Resolution is described in section 26.0 of these minutes.
16.0
MATERIALS TESTING LABORITORIES (MTL) METALLOGRAPHIC CHECKLIST
The previous issue of AC7101/4 (Rev E) checklist consisted of nine pages which had no job
audits. On revision of the checklist to Rev F, it now consists of 19 pages with a total of 16
required job audits, and each with 12 new questions/fields. The question raised was how will
HTTG Auditors work with these new time management challenges? Especially given that ~150
HTTG audits per year (out of the ~950 annual audits) are already five days each.
Primary HTTG concerns are:
Firstly, that AC7101/4 MOU (and that for AC7101/3) requires MTL to consult with HTTG prior to
release of new checklists. This was not done prior to the August 2016 release of AC7101/4 Rev.
“F”, preventing HTTG from addressing this significant change in the October 2016 Auditor
Conference.
More importantly, each task group conducts its business in substantially different ways. For
example, MTL grants 18-month accreditation upon approval of initial audit and 24-month
accreditation on second approval; HTTG grants only 12 month approvals, until at least after the
second audit and only after merit criteria are met. MTL initial audit failure threshold is 40 total
NCRs; HTTG initial audit failure threshold is 12 total NCRs. Also, MTL rotates checklist content
after the initial audit, such that certain sections of its checklist (including those of interest to the
HTTG) are only audited to in the first and fifth years. HTTG requires that all its checklist
questions be asked in every audit – or annually for a non-merit suppliers, and every 24 months
with maximum merit suppliers.
Most importantly, HTTG has 12 checklists of its own, and uses three from other task groups
(Welding and MTL) – for a total of over 250 pages and almost 400 questions to be answered in a
5-day audit – including 10 Heat Treat-specific job audits. Given such a large dataset it is
extremely difficult to reach agreement on checklist content within HTTG itself let alone work to
requirements of another task group.
MTL Task Group’s Senior Staff Engineer. Kevin Wetzel, was invited and came to the HTTG
meeting and presented the MTL position that the requirements have been there all along. HTTG
does not require such a rigorous scrutiny of the lab documents.
Motion by Gerald Harvey and seconded by Doug Matson for the HTTG to approach the Nadcap
Management Council (NMC) to request consent to pursue creation/release of a captive laboratory
audit checklist (not subject to approval from MTL) for heat treat modelled along the lines of the
Chemical Process Laboratory Analysis Checklist. Motion passed 17 to 2.
ACTION ITEM: Tom Norris to approach NMC to request consent to pursue creation/release of a
captive laboratory audit checklist (not subject to approval from MTL) for heat treat, modelled
along the lines of the Chemical Process Laboratory Analysis Checklist. (Due Date: 1-Feb-2017).
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
17.0
HT-STSTG – OPEN
Wilfried Weber presented the most recent version of the pyrometry form covering calibration. The
form will be presented to the UVM.
18.0
TASK GROUP TUTORIAL – OPEN
Marcel Cuperman presented the task group tutorial.
19.0
JUNE 2016 MEETING MINUTES – OPEN
The June 2016 minutes main topics were reviewed by the HTTG Chairperson. These included:
The importance of self-audit and addressing findings which arise from the self-audit in preparation
of the Nadcap Audit was emphasized.
Decision that 10 Job Audits shall be performed by the Supplier as part of the self-audit and data
provided to the auditor 30 days prior to Nadcap audit.
Motion made by Cyril Vernault and seconded by Richard Lewis to accept the June 2016 meeting
minutes as written. Motion Passed.
20.0
CLOSED MEETING REPORT OUT – OPEN
Tom Norris gave an update on Risk Mitigation process which will changed with responsibility for
closing the Risk Mitigation audits migrating from ad hoc Subscriber Task Group Member Review
Teams to Staff Engineers planned to take place 1-Jan-2017. The HTTG Subscribers have
competed 47 Risk Mitigation audits to date. This change is expected to provide the suppliers with
a better turn-around time on audits going through Risk Mitigation.
21.0
RAIL REVIEW – OPEN
The RAIL was reviewed. It is posted on www.eauditnet.com > Resources > Documents > Public
Documents > Heat Treating.
Sub-team formed to update checklist AC7102/2 (Aluminum Heat Treating) to address the
“straightening” process and to include its own job audits.
ACTION ITEM: Sub team Tom Norris, Doug Matson, Sunder Rajan, Christoph Henkel, Bob Sartori,
Michael Quann, Bill Dhillon, and Marcel Cuperman to update AC7102/2 checklist. (Due Date: 1Feb-2017).
22.0
OP 1117 AUDITOR CONSISTENCY SUB-TEAM UPDATE – OPEN
Cyril Vernault presented the update.
23.0
AC7102 REV. I – OPEN
Marcel Cuperman presented highlight of the revisions followed by discussion on ITAR/EAR
requirements and flow down.
24.0
AC7102/4 REV. D – OPEN
Nitriding checklist comment resolution was started. The checklist needs to go back to the Nitriding
Sub-Team, especially to address the testing table.
25.0
HT-STSTG – OPEN
Wilfried Weber presented the Instrumentation Calibration (IC) Master Form Rev “W”. The Task
Group will discuss this and determine if a pilot Implementation can be recommended.
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
26.0
AUDITOR ADVISORIES – OPEN
New Auditor Advisories were reviewed.
27.0
OLD AUDITOR ADVISORIES – OPEN
All the old advisories were reviewed and determined if they could be removed, need changing or
are valid as they are. It was agreed Marcel Cuperman will update those needing changes.
ACTION ITEM: Marcel Cuperman to update Auditor Advisories. (Due: 1-Feb-2017).
28.0
HTTG PYROMETRY GUIDE UPDATE – OPEN
The HT Pyrometry Guide was updated September 2016.
A discussion on load thermocouples in contact with load material or heat sink. The question was
‘Should the load sensor be in contact with the heat sink?’ Section FAQ 63 vs FAQ 44. It was
agreed that the load thermocouple must be in contact with, or in a heat sink when used with
production. The HT Pyrometry Guide will need to be revised to address this.
ACTION ITEM: Marcel Cuperman to modify the Pyrometry Guide (section FQA 63). (Due Date: 1Feb-2017).
Wording agreed to be added; For empty furnace (including with a rack) Load Sensor may be
attached to a piece of material, or left free. The method shall be defined during the initial TUS. In
case of a production load, the load sensor shall comply with definition in AMS2750E Section
2.2.27.
29.0
MTL CHECKLIST DEBRIEF – CLOSED
Mark Emerson and Marcel Cuperman provided details which were discussed in the closed portion
of the meeting with the MTL representatives. MTL has agreed to allow HT Auditors to mark NA
against any job tracker triggered questions.
ACTION ITEM: Sub-Team of Mark Emerson, Doug Matson, Rob Hoeth, Marcel Cuperman, and Cyril
Vernault to review the MOUs with the MTL Task Group and present results to the HT Task Group.
(20-Feb-2017).
30.0
OP 1114 CHANGE REVIEW – OPEN
Changes have been made to the document which were reviewed by Marcel Cuperman. The OP
1114 Appendix HT will be sent to ballot and will reflect these changes.
31.0
SSC PRESENTATION – OPEN
Roy Adkins presented the SSC Activities. It was requested that suppliers would also like to
establish a method to contact and communicate with Subscribers, similar to how the auditors
have a “Google Group”.
32.0
SUPPLIER VOTING MEMBER PARTICIPATION – OPEN
There are 27 Supplier Voting Members and some Companies have alternate representation.
The following requests for additions or changes to voting membership were received and
confirmed by the Task Group Chairperson pending verification of PD 1100 requirements:




Subscriber Voting Member: UVM
Supplier Voting Member: SVM
Alternate: ALT
Task Group Chairperson: CHR
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED


Vice Chairperson: VCH
Secretary: SEC
First
Name
Surname
Company
Position:
Meetings Attended
(Month/Year)
(new /
updated role)
Keith
Kastner
Metal finishing Inc
SVM
Oct-2016
Oct-2015
Bill
Dhillon
Senior Aerospace;
Thermal
Engineering
SVM
Oct-2016
June-2016
Stan
Revers
Senior Aerospace;
Thermal
Engineering
ALT SVM
Oct-2016
June-2016
David
McKeagney
Timken Aerospace
SVM
June-2016
Oct-2016
David
Mailes
Paulo – Cleveland
SVM
June-2015
Oct-2016
The compliance to voting requirements per PD1100 were reviewed. The Chairperson
emphasized the fact that suppliers failing to meet voting participation criteria or meeting
attendance requirements will be removed as a voting. Supplier meeting attendance noncompliance was discussed with the appropriate Suppliers.
No supplier voting rights were removed at this time.
33.0
FAILURE ANALYSIS & VCA DATA – OPEN
Analysis was presented for number of audits failed from Jan.2013 to date. The year to data rate
of failure is 2.3%.
34.0
SSC REPORT OUT – OPEN
Activities of the SSC were reported by Roy Adkins.
35.0
AMEC REPORT OUT – OPEN
Doug Matson debriefed the attendees on updates or revision status of; AMS2658 Revision
(Conductivity Value for Clad Removed from Table2), AMS3025, AMS2771 Revision (Pyrometry
Reqmt. removed for Freezer), New AMS for Heat Treat Salts AMEC14AA, AMS2759 Revision
(13 slash sheets), AMS2769 Vacuum Heat Treat.
36.0
PLANNING & OPS MEETING REPORT OUT – OPEN
ACTION ITEM: HTTG to review the Observation Audits’ metrics again and determine if there is
additional information which can be gathered which may shed light on Auditor Consistency. (Due
Date:1-Feb-2017).
37.0
NEW BUSINESS – OPEN
Question 3.2.1.7 in the checklist AC7102 Rev I was discussed.
ACTION ITEM: Doug Matson to draft an Auditor Advisory to address when the ITAR/EAR may not
be applicable for 3.2.1.7 in the checklist AC7102 Rev. I and forward to Cyril Vernault for review
prior to sending to PRI Staff to post. (Due Date: 1-Feb-2017).
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
Motion was made to add N/A to Customer (who are raw stock suppliers) regarding question
3.2.1.5 in the checklist AC7102 Rev. I.
Motion made by Tom Norris and seconded by Doug Matson for Doug Matson to draft an Auditor
Advisory to address AC7102 Rev I paragraph number 3.2.1.7 and forward to Cyril Vernault to
review prior to issuing. Motion Passed.
ACTION ITEM: Doug Matson to draft Auditor Advisory to address AC7102 question 3.2.1.5 and
forwarded to Cyril Vernault to review prior to sending to PRI Staff to post. (Due Date: 1-Feb-2017).
38.0
OPEN MEETING TABLED SUBJECTS – OPEN
The MTL Checklist Revision debrief was made by Tom Norris and discussed with participation
from Subscribers as well as Suppliers. Tom Norris reported NMC preference for HTTG to meet
with MTL to resolve the issues. Mitch Nelson commented that it took quite a while for HT and
MTL to come to an agreement in the past and expressed concern that this could take a while to
resolve.
39.0
SAFRAN PR-0011 – OPEN
Not presented. Item 25.0 presented in its place.
40.0
HOW TO RESPOND TO NCRS – OPEN
Cyril Vernault gave a presentation on How to Respond to NCRs.
41.0
BOEING FLOW DOWN REQUIREMENTS – OPEN
Presentation was deferred since there is no new information to share.
42.0
SAT & ALTERNATE SAT PRESENTATIONS – OPEN
Presentation is postponed, see action item in 14.0.
43.0
Q & A SESSION – OPEN
1) Flow Down Q: Discussed in a lot of meetings. Has any statistical analysis done on flow down
and if so what are the results? A: None to our knowledge:
2) Audit Advisory Q: Why are auditors being advised to look for certain things that are not
specification requirements? Do we need specifications or do only what Nadcap says? A:
Need specific number of the Advisory to give you a better answer.
3) Q: How does one become an auditor. A: Start by applying in http://p-r-i.org/about-pri/careers/.
Register there for the Commodity of your interest.
4) Q; Load Thermocouple TUS. Can Load Thermocouples be free on a fixture or do they have
to be embedded in the load? A: Already discussed, see section 28.0.
5) Q: Type B Instrumentation with expendable load Thermocouple are recorded on channels 14, Channels 1-4 make up the 9 points required of the zone, is this acceptable for TUS? If not,
do 9 points on channels 5-13 and 1-4 load? A: Any channels which are convenient to you
(supplier). All channels used shall be calibrated to the appropriate type of Thermocouple.
Process recorders cannot be used for TUS.
6) Q: 3 Zone Furnace instrumented to Type D. If a customer requires only one load
Thermocouple do we run a TUS with Option A) Type B Instrumentation (3 Load
Thermocouples for each zone), Option B) Type D (No load Thermocouples) or Option C)
Type D plus 1 load T/C A: Option C (run TUS for Type D Plus 1 load Thermocouple)
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
7) Q: How many job audits are to be performed? How is it to be controlled should the
requirement be exceeded during the audit? A: 10 Job Audits. We are not going over a 5 day
audit.
8) Q: Can automated surveys be included? Should this be in Pyrometry Guide or as an Audit
Advisory? A: You can use it if the system still lets you know if there is a problem and shuts
down and if all the relevant information shall be provided to the auditor and help the auditor
verify that the Pyrometry Requirements are all met.
9) Q: Will more Subscribers be requiring periodic competency testing from Suppliers? Will this
be through eQuaLearn? A: We do not know.
10) Q: With Type A or B instrumentation how many load Thermocouples are required to run in
the TUS? We run 2 load T/Cs. A: One Load T/C in each zone Type A and B.
11) Q: If we build a new facility on the site where a Nadcap Accredited facility exists, will it be a
new initial audit? How about if the old facility has merit? Will it get merit as the main facility?
A: If it is in the same facility, this will be an add scope if it is a different process. If it is same
process, it will not even be an add scope; will be audited during the next audit. Regarding the
merit- both will get the same merit-(the lower value).
12) Q: What Flow down document is required to tell us it is not ITAR? We cannot flow up a
checklist question! A: Get answers from your customer.
13) Q: Why is it OK for Subscribers to designate ITAR across the board but not for the Supplier?
A: Subscriber is customer – flow down. For Supplier, due diligence, try to get answer and
document your actions.
14) Q: AC7102/ 8Para2.1.3 Should the Supplier review the test lab internal procedures? A: To
comply with the quality system, you (Supplier) need to verify that their procedure meets the
specification and your requirement.
15) Q: Why are forgings heat treated by the forging houses accepted when they follow AMS2772
or AMS-H-6875 (less stringent requirements) when the heat treaters are required to follow
more stringent specs? A: Forgings and Castings require additional properties testing and
data. Also, they are not parts but mill products.
16) Can stitching Thermocouples be used for Pyrometry (AMS 2750). Can normal load sensors
be replaced by stitching Thermocouples? A: No.
17) If there is a lower specific temperature being used to soak, do we do a TUS at that
temperature? This temperature may be during Continuous cooling or Step Cooling. – A: this
may require a calibration at that stage.
ACTION ITEM: Jeff Thyssen and Martin Day to write an Auditor Advisory to define and clarify the
calibration requirements. (Due Date: 1-Feb-2017).
18) Q: Furnace equipped with 4 Thermocouples. One Zone /One Load Thermocouple. Is this
OK? A: Yes, agreed. (27-Oct-2016)
44.0
TBD-CLOSED
No subject discussed.
45.0
TBD -CLOSED
No subject discussed.
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
46.0
NEW BUSINESS -CLOSED
The following new business discussed:
1) Advisory 10-2012 and FAQ #63 in Conflict – Should we Cancel? A: 10-2012 is just for
frequency not TUS, so no conflict. Do not need to cancel.
2) D1-4426 (Boeing) – “Specifications and Procedure Implementation sub-team” to develop
a generic version of this document. Tom Norris, Gregorz Wryk, Jeff Thyssen, Mark
Emerson, Earl Pruet, Marc Taillandier, Cyril Vernault, Doug Matson, Sunder Rajan and
Marcel Cuperman.
ACTION ITEM: Specifications and Procedure Implementation Sub-Team to develop a generic
version of D1-4426 (Boeing). (Due Date: 1-Feb-2017).
3) HSTSTG, Wilfried Weber presented the latest version of the Instrumentation Calibration
form. There is an Instruction Sheet which goes with the form which describes every box
in the form. Five Suppliers have offered to be “Pilots” to implement this form. Sub-Team
of Steven Mackenzie, Tom Norris, Doug Matson, Earl Pruett and Sunder Rajan.
ACTION ITEM: Sub-Team formed to select supplier to trial form. (Due: 1-Feb-2017).
4) New Technologies – Other Heat Treating Technology which may warrant a checklist was
discussed. No action to be taken at this time.
5) Welding Supplier Advisory Type C for a Supplier. This Supplier had just passed a heat
treat audit and is on merit. However, this advisory might indicate a systemic problem with
the Supplier. HTTG decided that accreditation to be withdraw if a systemic problem
identified. Staff Engineer (Rob Hoeth) will wait for the Welding Task Group decision as to
whether they withdraw accreditation and then ballot for failure of the Heat Treat
Accreditation.
ACTION ITEM: Rob Hoeth to poll the Heat Treating Subscriber Voting Members for consideration
of suspension or withdrawal of the current accreditation for audit 157381. (Due Date: 18-Nov2016).
6) The addition of new job audits to some of the slash sheets has resulted in ambiguity in
the number of audit days that are needed.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineer to add clarification in the HT Audit Handbook regarding the number
of job audits needed to be performed by the supplier as part of their internal audit. (Due Date: 1Feb-2017).
47.0
CLOSED MEETING TABLED SUBJECTS-CLOSED
No subjects to discuss.
48.0
RAIL REVIEW – CLOSED
Added all the action items and Sub-Teams from the meeting.
49.0
FEBRUARY 2017 AGENDA – CLOSED
Marcel Cuperman will create February 2017 Heat Treat Task Group Agenda and send to Task
Group for review prior to posting.
ADJOURNMENT – 27-Oct-2016 – Meeting was adjourned at 1:00 p.m.
Minutes Prepared by: Sunder Rajan, [email protected]
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2016
CONFIRMED
***** For PRI Staff use only: ******
Are procedural/form changes required based on changes/actions approved during this meeting?
(select one)
YES* ☐ NO ☐
*If yes, the following information is required:
Documents requiring revision:
Who is responsible:
Due date: