ALL MY EFFORTS WITH RACISM GROUPS
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Eisa Johali 2 days ago • Yes, why not to it if it unethical I challenge you to find unethical inhumanity
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What is DIVINE LOVE? ........
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Whistle-blower or Traitor?
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Japan What Does It Mean to You ?
Japan the last far east ....what does it mean to you ...did you visit ....Are they really thinkers ? .... I am
here now
posted 14 days ago
Eisa Johali 13 hours ago • No I came bock to my lovely land with my lovely family .....thanks
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ALL MY EFFORTS WITH RACISM GROUPS
The Universe of Thinkers is not for Thinkers b Atheists Only
Discussions You've Started
Japan What Does It Mean to You ?
Japan the last far east ....what does it mean to you ...did you visit ....Are they really thinkers ? .... I am
here now
posted 13 days ago
Eisa Johali 13 hours ago • No I came bock to my lovely land with my lovely family .....thanks
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Do You Believe in Great Creator of Our Great Creation ?
I spend about thee years with others research sites including the racism 'research gate' debating the
"Truth that " Sure behind every ...
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Pranshu Gaur 1 month ago • And please Quran is not your identity.............you existed even before
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Let us have a poll
posted 8 days ago • 21 votes
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I believe in God
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Let us have a poll
posted 8 days ago • 21 votes
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I believe in God
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I do not believe in God
15 (71%)« your vote
6 (28%)
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God Only One God "Allah" not your gods ......Bye
God Only One God "Allah" not your gods .....Remember this result is true support my pool
that you deleted as don't like just because it came from Muslim ..... .Bye
They keep the above and deleted my similar discussion just becayse it came from Muslim
….Why
Do You Believe in Great Creator of Our Great Creation ?
I spend about thee years with others research sites including the racism 'research gate' debating the
"Truth that " Sure behind every great work there is a great worker. = Behind Our Great Creation Sure
There Is A Great Creator"
Do You Believe ?!
As you are exist with great 'mind-brain' to think and share here, I think believe !!; If no, kindly let us
know who create our great life, soul and death ?!
1 month ago
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257 comments • Jump to most recent comments
FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Well, Stephen Hawking has said that basically the universe is self-initiating and selfperpetuating, making it unnecessary to have a "creator."
I'm not sure about humans having souls either. It's a pretty abstract concept with no proof that souls
actually exist except that "my mom, dad, and priest told me so," which is lovely but not exactly solid
proof. Certainly the world's greediest people do not have souls, how could they?
Also, have you considered that if there is a "Creator," that He/She/It is not pure good but an amalgam
of good and evil just like almost every human is? At times I lean to Creationism but as I said, if there is
a God then I must question the nature and character of God, who I see as more of a "G'dEvil."
1 month ago• Like
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Stephen Hauskins • You make the statement that 'we' are a great creation. That is probably debatable
and you imply we were created, therefore there has to be a creator. It seems that your question sets the
answer.
The human brain developed the ability to create a sense of being and an ability to be self aware. Why
do we need anything else in order to justify our existence?
It is also apparent that in animals they are somewhat self aware as well, as far as we can determine
from observation.
I would ask the question, "If we are this great creation why was (is) humanity in such great turmoil and
why don't we make sure that all of humanity is living a decent and fulfilling life?"
1 month ago• Unlike
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Eisa Johali • Welcome Frank & Stephen with pleasure ...I know it is strange for you and it had long
debating.....Despite that, I am sure I am saying the "TRUTH SCIENCE" as well as all believers not me
only....
If Hawking & Darwin here I will work hard to promote him to accept the truth that there is no alike...
...
Everything in our live came with logic reason .... NOTHING is a self-initiating and self-perpetuating,
As I am sure that we are not develop from animal !!! we have been created to build this great earth that
human will never made alike, I am sure also personally and from well trusted source that there is a
"Great Creator" create our universe with great great Space and then create human kinds by creating the
first "Adam & Eve" with great mind -brain differ than animals ..., then create heaven and hell the two
great promotion ways for logic thinkers and non logic .....
Step by step with self only self thinking ......
Just forget all previous ancient and contemporary human made philosophies and sciences 'every has
right and false'..... and forget all religions too.
Just set at top of tower or mountain be meta-thinker while you have deep contemplate on yourself &
space the sky and let me know how did you think and feel
1 month ago
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Eisa Johali • Again KINDLY forget all previous ancient and contemporary human made philosophies
and sciences 'every has right and false'..... and forget all religions too.
Just set at top of tower or mountain be meta-thinker while you have deep contemplate on yourself &
space the sky and let me know how did you think and feel ?
If you are not able to set out ....just have a moment meta- self reflection in your self, life and death
....how do you came, born, how did your father. mother, grand.. ....grand....and ancient grand fathers
and mothers come ?! Do you have a great organs, how they work, who control it to work perfect .....Do
you really know your self....is there some thing you don't know .......?!!
1 month ago
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Eisa Johali • If you don't forget "all previous ancient and contemporary human made philosophies and
sciences and forget all religions " there is no way for Self Truth NEVER.way to find our right
way...one way
1 month ago
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P VUnfollow
P V Rajeev • You can beleive that there is a god who created everything. Otherwise how could all
these wonderful things come into existance, you could argue. But a person like Bertrand Russel will go
a step further and ask: if God created everything then who created God - how did He come into
existance. That leads us to the question: is it god who created man or man who created god?
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FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Eisa, I believe we are having a one-way discussion here and since I already said what I
think and you have said what you think I'm going to leave it at that. Perhaps someone else will sit on a
mountain top and engage with you.
Peace,
Frank
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Ian Miller • Frank, a minor comment re souls. Whether or not you have a soul depends, I suspect, on
exactly what you mean by the word "soul". In this, and many other debates, the debate is really never
resolved because people are not talking about the same thing.
As an aside, the argument that the Universe was created from "nothing", therefore needed a creator is
spurious, because it is quite possible that the mass of the Universe is precisely zero mass units! The
reason: fields have negative energy, hence mass, and the gravitational field may exactly offset mass. Of
course nobody knows where the universe ends, so maybe not!
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Jennifer Czislowski • Only creationism works for me - it is the only position that makes sense which
ever way life is viewed.
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Stephen Hauskins • @Jennifer
Try science. You will be amazed.
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FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Ian interesting comments. I suppose the "soul" could be defined as a form of
consciousness. I think it's whether or not the "soul" lives on after the physical body dies is the big
question that no one can answer. But I can say that I haven't heard a word from my grandparents,
mother, or two uncles since they passed some years ago.
I think the religious theory (maybe creationism) says that the universe was created by God out of
nothing. But as I understand scientific theory the universe had mass when it was created. And if you
ascribe to the Big Bang theory it could have happened one of at least two ways. The first is that two
universes bumped together and caused the Big Bang, and the second is that some super-massive black
hole focused all the matter in the universe down to a single almost infinitely massive sub-atomic point
and then all hell broke loose, i.e., the Big Bang.
Curiously, I saw a post from someone over at the Unofficial TED group who said that there are a few
Red Giant Stars recently discovered that predate the Big Bang by many years. So if this is true, either
another universe has drifted (expanded) innocuously into ours, or the Big Bang must be called into
question. Stephen, what do you know regarding the scientific viewpoint?
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Stephen Hauskins • Frank
You might look at this
http://www.space.com/20112-oldest-known-star-universe.html
No one has talked much about inflationary universes. Also people may want to look
at various sources of information that explain the various theories and viewpoints.
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/32917/size-of-universe-after-inflation
As for creationism - what can you say? Nothing. Since it has no rigorous methodologies to demonstrate
and support the "propositions" of creationism.
It is very easy and takes little effort to simply say, I believe in creationism and that some higher power
made all of things we see. Even if that were true it is irrelevant to the functioning of science. Science is
not the method by which we determine if the universe was created by god(s). It is only the tool by
which we understand and discover how the universe works.
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FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Stephen, thank you for the links. It appears that the Methusula star they thought was
older than the universe is now estimated to be closer to the age of the universe with the universe
possibly being older, which makes sense.
But as far as Creationism goes there are two issues that stand out from a scientific viewpoint. One is
that the odds of life occurring on a lifeless planet are billions to one against it. The thing that science
has on it's side (as far as Darwinism is concerned) is that the universe is about 14 billion years old so
the spontaneous emergence of life could have happened in that amount of time.
The other thing is that there is no real proof that an ape evolved into a human or a dinosaur turned into
a bird. No matter how similar they may be from a genetic standpoint, they are still distinctly different
animals. So maybe Darwin was not 100 percent correct?
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Stephen Hauskins • Frank
How can you conclusion about the odds of life, when we haven't found any given our limited ability.
We use to think that the sun went around the earth, we use to think that radiation wasn't harmful (ask
the Curies), we use to think the earth's surface was static... on and on and on, we use the tools of
rational thinking, math and science to find the answers.
If you don't understand evolution and genetics then you wouldn't see the very basic link that is
displayed in the Hominid family.
http://courses.washington.edu/tcsig100/tcsig100_early_hominins.pdf
If you want to believe that we were simply created - please provide the proof.
I am sorry but creationism provides nothing in terms of explaining the phenomenon of the universe.
I mean science has only given us everything that we use today and our ability to help ourselves in the
sense of medical science.
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FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Stephen I saw from your link that there was a new hominid species discovered in
Ethiopia that had more human proportions, and used tools to get meat from slain animals. So I can see
that this might represent the "missing link" between apes and humans... consistent with Darwin's
theory.
Regarding the odds of life forming on any planet or place that has no life, if you look into it you'll find
that the odds of the right chemicals combining together to result in a living organism are astronomical
against it happening. I was not talking in the context of life forming on other planets; I was talking
about the odds of life happening anywhere in the physical universe including the Earth, which as we
know is now teeming with life. So the odds of this happening randomly are much less likely than
winning the big lottery, if you catch my drift.
I don't really want to believe in Creationism because then I would have to believe in a God that is both
extremely good and extremely evil, and everything in between (the G'dEvil), and to me this would be a
scary realization. So by all means, talk me out of it.
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Stephen Hauskins • Frank
I still disagree. The odds may be low. Let's make a comparison. If you play the California Lottery you
have the odds of 1 in 41,000,000 in winning. That's against a population of 34million and probably a
population of 10 million that play. YET people win.
Now if you look at the universe, with billions of stars, and therefore with billions of planets, you have
to weigh the odds. Our solar system is not unusual or odd. In fact today we are finding more and more
planets just in a very localized area. Of course all stars don't have planets. Many seem to have ones that
just wouldn't work (in our view) for life.
I think the odds are fairly good for intelligent life in many places in the universe. The problem is how
long it takes to communicate.
The universe appears to be composed of the same chemicals. Are they evenly distributed, probably not.
But still the odds of life in the universe besides us is good in fact, I am sure it is so.
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Ian Miller • Frank, for what it is worth, I haven't heard from my parents either, but I do to regard that
as significant one way or another. The advantage of the argument that the "soul" dies with the body is
that it does not have to invoke anything extra, but I am not convinced that argument is especially
significant.
Also, I have to disagree with you on the odds of life forming. Agreed there are problems, but not nearly
as bad as you may think. My argument is too complicated to express fully here, but I have put it in my
ebook "Planetary Formation and Biogenesis". The essence of the argument is that there is a good
probability of getting an Earth around a sun-lik star (the criterion is an early T tauri event, and it is
estimated almost half reach this criterion) and if so, the carbons and nitrogen so accreted react with
water to form a barrage of chemicals. What is really fascinating is that most of what you want to get
started are there. There are two points that are a little questionable: I require Fischer-Tropsch - type
reactions underground (no problem - these have been found in mid-atlantic trenches) BUT they have to
also react the hydroxyl with phosphate, which requires the phosphate to be reasonably available. If so,
you will get oily micelles on the ocean surface, these will adsorb the necessary chemicals, and from
then on, osmotic pressure should do the rest, with the help of sunlight. I know that sounds outlandish - I
am sorry, but it took me over 200,000 words and an analysis o=f over 600 scientific papers to get there.
As an aside, I am a professional research chemist, so if nothing else, I stand behind my chemistry
arguments.
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FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Thank you Ian and Stephen for showing me the light. Now I know that out of John
Lennon's and Ian Anderson's philosophies that Lennon was correct, just Imagine!
This is good for me because I really didn't want to believe in a God that allows politicians and
corporations to evolve to their present levels of greed, obfuscation, and ruthlessness.
Cheers!
Frank
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FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Ian, since you and Stephen have just proven to my satisfaction that God does not exist,
does it follow that people don't have souls or would you speculate that the issue of the soul is a separate
and independent matter?
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Eisa Johali • Don't be followers.......You don't forget what so-called human fallacies .....
Forget to find the reality of Creation.....:
1. Who Create You ?
2. Who will let you die ?
3. When you will die ....?
1 month ago
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Ian Miller • Frank, sorry, but I hope I haven't implied that God does not exist. That is equivalent, in
logic, to saying the statement
God is . . .
is false. I am not sure I can finish that statement. I certainly do not believe there is a God personally
responsible for politicians, though!
As for a soul, I tend to go along with Descartes - "I think, therefore I am". As far as I am concerned,
my body is a bunch of chemicals doing some rather sophisticated things, but under no circumstances
can I come up with a scheme in which a bunch of chemicals start reasoning and become self-aware. So
thinking is something additional, and I would label that as the basis of the soul. I also think it is
induced by the body chemistry and environment (because we all think differently) and that chemistry
will cease when we die. Accordingly, the inducing of the basis of thought dies with our body, but I
suppose we cannot exclude something continuing. That raises the question, if you think it continues,
where could it continue? Modern physics is now playing around with up to 8 additional dimensions, so
based on science I am not prepared to exclude anything.
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FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Ian, very nicely said. Thank you for that. At least we can agree that God did not create
politicians, and by extension, their keepers.
Frank
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Jennifer Czislowski • Stephen, when I say creationism I mean the earth created us through evolution. I
don't believe in god - I believe in science. Sorry if I confused you.
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NARENDRAUnfollow
NARENDRA MURTY • Questions concerning ultimate origins are always difficult to handle. We
must understand that mere intellect is incapable of penetrating through the ultimate mysterious. Since
this is the case, we should also be careful that in our need for answers, we shouldn't accept blind beliefs
either. A merely rational/intellectual approach would ultimately lead us into a cul-de-sac. For example,
the big bang theory is accepted as an explanation for the origin of the universe. That time and space (on
which everything depends) had their beginning at the point of big bang. But if questions like "what
caused the big bang" or "how did the material that caused the big bang come into being" or "what lay
before the big bang (i.e. before 14 billion years)", scientists skirt the issue saying that the big bang is
called a Singularity and all physical and mathematical laws break down at Singularity. So such
questions are meaningless since space and time only begin at Big Bang. I think we have reached an
intellectual blind lane here. We have simply arrived at a variation of the old problem: If God created
the world, who created God? If Big Bang caused the universe, who or what caused the Big Bang? No
answer either from religion or from science but an intellectual cul-de-sac.
If we say creation, it implies a beginning. And beginning always implies an agent, something that is
responsible for that beginning. If we say God created the universe, the question is bound to come up
"who created God?" Neither the word "God" nor the words "Big Bang" solve anything. We are in the
same boat with either of these explanations.
Now I will share with you what Hindu metaphysics (Vedanta) has to say on this. It says that nothing is
created. Whatever is, was always there. Sometimes it manifests (comes into being) and sometimes it
again becomes unmanifest (dissolves, merges into emptiness). There was a point in time when
Narendra did not exist; now Narendra exists and there would come a point again when Narendra would
cease to exist. This process has been called involution and evolution. Where was Narendra before his
mother conceived him? (In Unmanifest state). Now he is here (Manifest state) Where would he be
when he is cremated?(Unmanifest state). (This is just an illustration and entirely a perfect illustration
either).
The tree is the evolved seed; the seed is the involved tree. Potentiality and manifestation. Potentiality is
called the Void and Manifestation is called the universe. And both these processes are happening in
eternity and infinity. Now Infinity and Eternity cannot be grasped by the human mind; neither the
scientific nor the religious mind. Because mind itself is trapped in time and space. Being trapped in
time and space it cannot penetrate and grasp Infinity and Eternity. It doesn't have the capacity to do so.
So these arguments about ultimate origins would lead us nowhere. Let me conclude with a quote which
is very remarkable:
"The effort to understand the universe is one of the very few things that lifts human life a little above
the level of farce, and gives it some of the grace of tragedy".
STEVEN WEINBERG
Nobel Laureate Physicist
Notice that Weinberg uses the words "effort to understand". He doesn't say he understands it. I think
we should approach these questions with more humility.
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NARENDRAUnfollow
NARENDRA MURTY • About the question whether we have a soul. There are two approaches to
this. The Judeo-Christian tradition comprising Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not believe in soul,
reincarnation and after life. They believe in Day of Judgement. However, the eastern religions like
Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, though they differ in other aspects are unanimous in their belief in
reincarnation and after life. I too subscribe to the view because our individuality cannot be explained
merely through heredity and environment. Two brothers in the same family are poles apart. Two
individuals brought up in the same environment also turn out to be vastly different. So heredity and
environment are incomplete explanations. Pre existence is amply indicated where we find that children
come to this world with talents and tendencies that are peculiar to their individuality. Child prodigies
also seem to point to pre existence. Mathematical and musical genius in a 5 year old child simply
cannot be explained through science and rationality. Musical and mathematical ability (or any other
talent) come only with conscious intellectual effort. And if they are found to spontaneously exist in a
child who had no previous exposure, then if have to accept that the knowledge has been gained
sometime in the past before the present life. Whether we would use terms like "soul" would depend on
what kind of a religion/culture we have been brought up. Let's just say that the consciousness continues
in some form.
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ChrisUnfollow
Chris Sparnicht • A lot of loosely-defined words are being tossed out in this discussion. Regardless of
whether we're perched on the fence or leaning on one side or the other, there are a number of things
that come to mind. Please forgive the length of what follows.
Part one...
1. Creationism as currently defined in the United States is the belief that the entire universe was
manifested some 6000 years ago rather than 13+ billion years ago. I'm not sure the term creationism as
it is being applied in this thread is the same Creationism that has caused factions across state lines and
in US schools. Are we fully agreed on what the term creationism means in this thread? If we're talking
US 'creationism', I have to say I don't believe the universe was spawned 6000 years ago.
1. The science/religion thing is another fence over which neighbors talk, but perhaps don't really agree
on the position of the fence. As long as Eisa *believes* nothing can self-initiate and Stephen and Frank
contest that some things (or perhaps everything) can self initiate, we cannot even agree on the axes of
the fence. There is a discrepancy between communication and understanding. We may as well be
monkeys randomly pecking at typewriters.
1. Regarding the term "soul": Narendra, Christians believe they have souls. The only sect that did not
believe in souls in the entire Abrahamic tradition that I am aware of were the Saducees, a Hebrew sect
that no longer exists, if I'm not mistaken. The rest believe they have an immortal spark that continues
on after the body dies. The concept of "soul" is yet another term that seems to flout definition. Some
Christians believe that only humans have immortal souls. For Christians, after life means going to
heaven or hell for eternity. Many Christians believe that animals and other life forms do not have souls.
Some believe in non-corporeal beings like angels that may or may not have souls. Again, terms and
belief in something without confirmation is causing a discrepancy in communication between those
who believe or have faith without scientific confirmation and those with a more skeptical bearing. We
need to agree on what a soul is before we can agree whether or not such a thing exists.
1. If we define "soul" as a "spark of self-awareness" or conciousness, it brings up other questions. Let's
sweep aside the argument of whether souls exist and assume they do. How do we measure a soul? If we
could measure a soul, would it adhere to the universe's quirky standard of quantum/wave duality, or is
it something more physical, measured out like cloth or flour? Can one person's soul be bigger than
another's, or is it like molecular orbitals, where each life-form is alotted specific quanta to be retained
or expressed? If it were a quantum/wave duality, would our bodies somehow hold a specific measure
that is purged all at once at death or are we continually acquiring and expressing soul quanta like
molecules acquire and express photons? Quanta imply preservation of mass and energy, so a quantum
of soul has got to go somewhere when it leaves a body. Where? There was a time when we did not
know how to measure some forms of radiation. Is it possible that at some time in the future, we could
find a way to measure soul? How would the universe look if we could modify Hubble or the JWST to
scan for some "soul" frequency the way we scan for x-rays or CMBR? What would humans and other
life forms look like through such a lens close up? Until we can measure it, I'm not sure we can debate it
other than conceptually. Is it enough to believe in an immortal soul because that's what our parents told
us or do we need more?
5. Frank, technically, according to the theory of evolution, we aren't decended from apes. Cladistically
and genetically, humans *are* apes *and* concurrently
monkeys.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A-dMqEbSk8
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ChrisUnfollow
Chris Sparnicht • Part 2...
6. Probability of self-initiation: Again, we have to define the limits of probability. Are we talking about
one specific liter of ocean or quadrillions of liters of ocean? Given an ocean a billion years in the
making and quadrillions of liters in size teaming with countless instances of frothing chemicals in
solution within the habitable zone of a star like ours, I suspect that probability is on the side of selfinitiation. All it would take is _one_ successfully-self-initiated molecular structure to begin evolution.
Given the copious time, space, mass and energy already manifested, spontaneous life seem inevitable.
7. Space and topology are key to my perception of the universe, so I hope it's okay to elaborate my
thoughts in those terms. If our universe is just part of a multiverse in 3+n spacial dimensions plus time,
what would a 3+n dimensional being look like? Would such a being even be aware of us? Is our
existence merely the thinnest 3d section of some appendage of some 3+n dimensional being? I am
aware of my opposable thumbs, but I cannot fathom communicating verbally with a being residing in
an infinitesimally-thin 2D cross-section of my right thumb. This is conceptually akin to what it would
be like for a 3+n dimentional being to converse with 3d beings like us. Our existence as an
infinitesimally-thin 3d subset of the 3+n whole can only be acknowledged by the 3+n dimensional
being in relation to its whole being, the way we can only acknowledge the thinnest cross-section of a
thumb as an indistinguishable subset of the our thumb. What would a 3+n+1 dimensional being look
like? If measurable souls exists as quanta, could soul quanta be pan-dimensional the way some
physicists today imply that gravity may be pan-dimensional, with gravity "slipping" into other
dimensions in order to explain the discrepancy between our expected measurements of dark
energy/matter and what we observe?
8. Planck's contant: This concept leaves me baffled, but as far as I can determine, physicists suspect
now that nothing material in our universe can be smaller than Planck's constant. This has a lot of
implications, one of which is posterization or digitization of existence. Given enough computer space,
the whole universe could literally be defined as a single string of ones and zeros, meaning our
perception may be merely holographic and not indicative of the true nature of the universe. That
physicists also suspect the topological edge of a black hole's event horizon has similarly
digital/holographic qualities tends to have me leaning toward the concept of Big Bang as the result of a
super massive black hole (SMBH) as suggested by Frank earlier. Our perception of this universe may
be nothing more than our occurence of self-awareness on the inner edge of some very large accretion
disk in yet another universe. Apparently, that universe doesn't even have to be a larger universe than
our own, nor are we apparently capable of enduring a transition between our universe and the one that
spawned our prospective SMBH because the dimensions involved are like apples and oranges. It makes
me think of fractals.
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ChrisUnfollow
Chris Sparnicht • Part 3
9. Creator beings: The concept of 'creator' implies a rational, thinking being acting as an architect. To
my mind, such a being implies a thought process that must 3+n dimensions plus time, at least to create
beings in three dimensions. That this connotation of "rationality" even has meaning in more than three
dimensions is unsupported by evidence. We have no concept of emotion, much less perception in four
or more dimensions. For the sake of simplicity, let's collapse four dimensions to three and three
dimensions to two. Imagine some sentient entity within the thinnest cross-section of my thumb, a three
dimensional portion of my four-dimensional body. Can I create, recreate or design the cross-section of
my thumb and its contents? Imagine I procreate to have a child. Does that constitute creation of a set of
sentient beings within the thinnest cross-section of my resultant child's thumb? Now let's unfold 2d to
3d and 3d to 4d again. How can merely existing and perceiving a specific set of dimensions
automatically make us master and creator of all existing dimensions fewer than our own, as with the
case of myself and my child's thumb?
10. In the same way that what constitutes being human seems to point to a whole larger than the sum of
its parts with regards to perception - conciousness or "soul" - perhaps the multiverse, at however many
dimensions it may exist, may be larger than the sum of its parts. Some beings composed of spatial
dimensions greater than our three may seem similarly larger than the sum of their parts, but we cannot
know since we perceive only in 3d. Whether that makes any 4d or 5d or more dimensional being
master of my corner of the multiverse or merely master of its own perceptions remains to be
discovered.
Of course, these are merely questions offered in the thread.
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Ian Miller • Looking specifically at Planck's constant - it is a discrete unit of what is termed action.
Part of the reason this is baffling is that most people do not know what is meant by the physicist
discussing action. Even physicists tend to avoid it where possible, for example if you look at Richard
Feynman's books, he does just about everything to avoid talking about it, despite the fact that, in my
opinion, it is totally fundamental to quantum mechanics because it is action that is quantized (NOT
energy, as you usually see, and definitely not mass.)
If you manipulate Newton's second law a little by integrating it, you end up with a way of representing
energy, and a key term is the difference between potential energy and kinetic energy. A more
sophisticated treatment was presented by Lagrange, so this difference is usually called a Lagrangian.
(No correspondence will be entered into regarding slight deviations from that explanation - I am trying
to simplify!) If we integrate the Lagrangian over time, we end up with this term called action. If the
state is not explicitly time dependent, there is something called a reduced action, namely momentum
times distance. In classical physics, action is continuous, and in most ways, it is simply a
mathematically complicated way of presenting classical mechanics. However, in quantum mechanics,
action occurs in discrete units, or quanta, and these are usually thought to represent the action
generated of one period of a wave. Thus the Einstein relation energy = h.nu, can be rewritten
Energy.periodic time = h (Action has the dimensions energy times time.)
You might also note that angular momentum (mvr) could be written as mv(2pi.r) and since 2pi.r =
circumference of orbit, and hence a wave length, we could write mv(2pi.r) = h, which is why the Bohr
theory worked. Of course it was wrong because by stating it as angular momentum instead of action,
one further assumption was introduced (the specific trajectory) and it was this that introduced the error.
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Eisa Johali • With 'like' I welcome of you with pleasure.....
I will do the best to replay, to exchange my thought with you ....start by correct some points of views,
then give natural answers to what I can answer....wither God exist or not, no one can decide since we
do not know the bases for that ...mainly 'creation vs revolution'.
First I think in Ian first two comments, "There is some secrets that may will lead us to truth or at least
narrow the gap .. ……let us follow …..
Ian can you explain more about gravity..mass of the Universe with zero mass units !' ... and is there
100% correct human theory regarding creation or revolution....?!!..please
1 month ago
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Eisa Johali • correct some points of views from Islamic view (1):
All Inspired religions Noahism; Abrahamism, Judaism, Judeo-Christian, Christianity ,and Islam which
covers all calling for 'worshiping One God' and are acknowledge 'spirit – soul with Day of judgment…
' who say that 'they don't' is not right
1 month ago
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FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Chris wrote "Frank, technically, according to the theory of evolution, we aren't decended
from apes. Cladistically and genetically, humans *are* apes *and* concurrently monkeys."
Well, that certainly explains much about our behavior... though I am a bit disappointed that we've lost
our tails. There are so many times when I've wished for another useful appendage. Oh well.
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Frank Alles • Also Chris, after viewing your 3-act, 10-point pack of facts, observations, and questions,
I have to ask: "What planet are you from and do you come in peace?"
I have a very rudimentary understanding of the physics of the multi-verse and I must confess that some
of what you have said is past my level of comprehension.
Frank :-)
1 month ago• Like
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Ian Miller • Elsa. First, mass units. They are just kg, tonnes, whatever units you like. If they are going
to be zero, it hardly matters. Second, from Einstein, Energy/(speed of light) squared = mass. In other
words, according to Einstein, energy and mass are equivalent.
In mechanics, there is something called the virial theorem, which says, for an inverse square field (like
gravity) kinetic energy = minus total energy = minus twice potential energy. Given that all mass in the
universe attracts other mass, the potential energy between them must be negative, therefore all the
energy in the gravitational field, which goes over the entire universe, must be negative. Since we do not
know the size of the universe, we cannot know, but since this field offsets the total mass, it is possible
that it offsets it exactly. Of course it might not either.
Actually, there may be NO 100% correct scientific theory! My guess is, though, the second law of
thermodynamics comes close, and I back Maxwell's electromagnetic theory. I am totally convinced the
theory of evolution is more or less correct, by that I mean conceptually correct, but in the details of
how it actually works in practice, I think there is more work required.
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Frank Alles • Chris, in thinking about your dissertation on the "Creator" and the "Multi-Verse," I think
what you are getting at is that it is likely that if there is a "Creator" he may exist in many more
dimensions than just the 3 we know... which would make it difficult for us to "know" Him or
comprehend Him. Is that what you are saying?
1 month ago• Like
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Stephen Hauskins • @Frank
Him?
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NARENDRAUnfollow
NARENDRA MURTY • Darwin's theory of evolution is supposed to be science. At least scientists
swear by it. I too see some logic in it. There is a progression from less intelligence to more intelligence,
from less complexity of organic life to the most complicated human brain. Human beings are supposed
to be a better version of the apes. And there's no denying the fact that a chimpanzee does look like an
inferior man. But I have only one doubt which evolution does not satisfy.
If man and other animals have indeed evolved from lower form of creatures WHY DO WE NOT FIND
A SINGLE ANIMAL/HUMAN WHO IS IN THE INTERMEDIARY STAGE? We have evolved from
the apes, that's fine. But the apes are coexisting with us! And they are stuck at the same place. Why
don't we see a single specie in transition to a higher form? In the intermediary stages? Evolution must
still be going on, if it is science?
Agree with Frank that though Chris has presented very impressive information, could not understand
most of it.
1 month ago• Like
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Ian Miller • Narendra, evolution is survival of the adequate to survive in a niche. Once species start
expanding into new niches, and start evolving, the new forms are stronger and the older forms become
less adequate for survival, so they die out. There are intermediate forms, but they are fossils. Basically,
the evolving homo genus wiped out the australopithecines, then sapiens wiped out neanderthalis, and
so on. The apes are not coexisting with us - they have stayed in the forest niche, and they have
probably evolved too, but not so obviously.
By the way, evolution is not directed towards more complexity - complexity only survives if it provides
advantage. Probably, one of the driving forces for the evolution of man was the movement of
continents that lead to periodic ice ages. Because there were continual climate changes, this favoured
either animals that could migrate, or could deal with change. Man is not particularly well adapted to
any environment, but intelligence allows man to deal with just about all of them.
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FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Stephen, yes... the G-dude from the 11th dimension of the Multi-verse that Chris alluded
to. I had never really considered that if there is a God, He would not likely confine Himself to this
common 3-dimensional universe. I have to admit that I find the idea of a Multiversal God intriguing.
Just think of the scope and capability that a multiversal nature would allow...
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Eisa Johali • Thanks Ian, I know humans will never know the Space, ever the earth space they still
don't know, don't reach first sky and may they will never.
This is just a simple evidence that human ability is very limited....they don't know and will never know
their ego ....
As logic philosopher and scientist, It is prefer not to think about God, not possible to decide now... Just
we have to think about logic answer of the first part of my natural question ?
Is Universe ....Life & Death are Great Creatures or Great thing do exist ?!? Grater then human thinking
?
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AnnaUnfollow
Anna Fernandes • NARENDRA MURTY • About the question whether we have a soul. There are two
approaches to this. The Judeo-Christian tradition comprising Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not
believe in soul, reincarnation and after life.
Sir, I would humbly beg to differ. Judea - Christians do believe in soul. In fact it is body, soul and
spirit. we do not believe in reincarnation, but we definitely believe we have a soul. And yes we believe
in the day of Judgement
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NARENDRAUnfollow
NARENDRA MURTY • Anna, You say Christians believe in soul but in not in reincarnation. Soul
implies post mortem existence in some form, doesn't it? Is it forever burning in hell or getting bored in
heaven? Moreover, how can soul (which is a non physical entity) suffer hell or enjoy heaven?
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RobertaUnfollow
Roberta Maduro • Why does it matter to believe (or not) in a creator and creation? What is the point?
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AnnaUnfollow
Anna Fernandes • We have a spirit and soul Narendra. Soul is will and emotion. And our spirit is the
breath of God in us, which returns to Him. The soul is the real you where you make decisions choices
etc. when say a person dies you feel sad and it is an emotional pain. it is also where you make decisions
good or bad which is the will. so your soul goes for judgement when you die. Just as on earth you feel
pain so in the afterlife you will experience both joy in heaven and pain in hell. Now I do not know if
anyone is bored with joy, but I certainly wouldn't. As regards hell yes it is described in the Bible as a
lake of fire burning with sulfur. Both heaven and hell are described in the Bible. You can also go on
you tube for heaven and hell experiences which even atheists talk about
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P VUnfollow
P V Rajeev • Regarding existence of soul my understanding of beliefs held by Hindus and Christians
are as follows: Both believe in existence of soul. Christians believe that after death soul goes to either
heaven or hell depending on whether the person has led a good life or not. Hindus believe that after
death the soul becomes part of another person or animal. There takes place a rebirth and the soul enters
the body of a new individual. The body dies, but the soul doesn't. I am not very familiar about beliefs
of other religions.
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AnnaUnfollow
Anna Fernandes • We as creation have been called to praise and worship the creator, not creation
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Eisa Johali • You are right Anna Worship the Great Creator ...
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Eisa Johali • Regarding Soul all religions including Islam do believe in existence of soul and spirit too,
differ in interpretation only
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Eisa Johali • Natural, every livings including human live with soul, soul is the live, when died it leaves
to the Great Creator.....no one know what is 'soul' and what will happened exact after death but at the
day after every soul came back to its body this One of The Greatest Miracle of God the Great Creator
of our Great Creation
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Eisa Johali • Everything we are talking about and all ancient and presence human philosophies and
scientists discovered and thinking about are well documented in all Holy Scriptures the original.
Everything was One came from One, the all human kinds were one came from 'Adam-Eve" the first
human in the earth that God the Great Creator create to praise and worship theHim and to live ...
All the above and all the history of all human civilizations are well documented in Quran
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AnnaUnfollow
Anna Fernandes • @ Eisa. I humbly beg to differ sir, Every living being has a spirit. What is a spirit.
A spirit is the breath of life from God and returns to the creator on death. A soul is will and emotion.
Only humans have it. By will we make decisions and are responsible for it. By emotion we feel
emotional pain suffering joy etc. The soul goes for judgment on death, and it is to everlasting bliss or
the fiery lake with sulfur
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Eisa Johali • Thanks Roberta
If all human kinds believe in creation and the One Great Creator we live in earthy heaven, there will be
no hate, no killing, no injustice, no inequity ....all will be happy .....I know its impossible now but this
is the Truth
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Eisa Johali • IT IS UNBELIEVABLE TO SAY " the earth created us !!!!!" !
This statement is not accepted even by science.
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Eisa Johali • Thanks Anna
You are the right "Spirit" or Soul (for me) is is the breath of life from God the Only One God the Great
Creator and returns to the creature the human after death and at the day after
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AnnaUnfollow
Anna Fernandes • You have not got me right Eisa. Spirit and soul are different Spirit is the breath of
life from God. the soul is you. The breath of life that is the spirit on death returns back to God. the soul
goes for judgment to God
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Eisa Johali • Spirit used as a name of God the Great Creator, from Spirit the soul came 'this my
understanding, I know it is debatable even in my society but I claim there no way to separate between
"Spirit & Soul" as we don't know and we can not see both, only the believers, may some of feel.
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Eisa Johali • You may right, but I have the above believe ....look for the synonyms of both .....
May you mean psyche = soul !
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Stephen Hauskins • Well I see where this thread is going...
Off to something more interesting.
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Anna Fernandes • WE dont debate on it and we say body soul and spirit which are separate and
distinguishable You can call the soul psyche mind. It is the seat of will and emotions.
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Eisa Johali • You are right " The breath of life that is the spirit on death returns back to God. the soul
goes for judgment to God" it is close to our interpretation But from where the soul came ? it has no
relation to Spirit !!?
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Anna Fernandes • The soul as you say could be the real you, your mind thoughts emotions. the soul is
responsible for your actions etc that is why we say the soul goes for judgment in the resurrected form.
It has no relation to the spirit. The spirit is the breath of God in us which gives us life
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Eisa Johali • Thanks a lot Anna, you are close 99% the truth.
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FrankUnfollow
Frank Alles • Anna and Eisa, you have the right to believe whatever you want to believe and it appears
that you both had religious upbringings and that nothing anyone says will change what you believe. But
there is no evidence anywhere for most of what you believe... like heaven, hell, the soul, etc. And the
Bible was written by men, not "God." So I consider it a work of fiction.
Anna, do you still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, or are they just lies you've outgrown
but still tell to children?
Even though your beliefs are very real to you, you must understand that to others your beliefs are
children's fairytales perpetuated over generations. So by all means, worship your "Creator", believe in
the soul and heaven and hell... as someone else suggested, in the end it will make no difference.
And I know you disagree with what I'm saying but since I must live in the real world I don't really care
what archaic notions you have or wish to perpetuate. If it keeps you and Eisa from robbing and
cheating your neighbors and killing them then the men who wrote the Bible have done their job. I am
satisfied that you need commandments and rules to live by and a fictional character who will love you
always...although you could just get a dog for that.
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Eisa Johali • Hello Frank; you are welcome, you have your believe, we have ours ...don't worry...
At the beginning I call for : Forget all our God based Religions and all your human philosophies and
theories" just let us meta self thoughts in existing Nature, Universe...." but you don't ....if you like I am
ready
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Eisa Johali • I am still have slight difference with Anna in the relation between "Spirit - Soul" only
while we agreed on 99% Truth.
All human philosophies and scientists tried to reach truth but they didn't, so they prefer to leave Truth
just to focus on what they limited observe. we have more our own observation plus the trusted truth
that we hold will never change .
1 month ago
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Stephen Hauskins • @Eisa
Did god create your computer? Did god create medicine to help you live longer and better?
Did god create all of the things that have helped humanity go forward?
Science is the only tool we have that produces results.
Once your god shows up and starts doing something that helps humanity let me know.
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Frank Alles • Eisa, I appreciate your reply but I'm not certain of your intent... probably because your
English language skills are not optimum. I don't take it as hostile. I'm just not sure what you meant.
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Eisa Johali • Welcome Frank, I know my English is not well but I think the title and its summary
description are clear:
- Do You Believe there is creation ?
- If, yes, is it great or 'amazing, wonderful, perfect '
- If yes, do think there is a great create this great creation .....who ?
Welcome Stephen;
- First there is God not god or gods
- Second; No God does not create computer and medicine... God created who discovered our amazing
computer ?!
1 month ago
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Stephen Hauskins • Eisa
I can say god(s) if I want since there are none. In a court of law, if you can't produce the evidence it
doesn't exist.
You arguments are at best circular.
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Eisa Johali • Stephen be relax step by step;
Forget 'God" ; answer my questions " Does Computer discovered or created from nothing ?: Who
explore or create computer ?)
1 month ago
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Stephen Hauskins • The computer was created by humans period. Many scientists worked on it. Then
engineers. Nothing more nothing less.
I will now predict your answer. "god created humans and therefore humans created computers."
It is once again a circular argument with no proof.
You can believe what you want.
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Frank Alles • Stephen don't forget that humans created god long before humans created computers...
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Eisa Johali • Q3: Who create human kind ? and how ?
Forget all human philosophies and theories all have no sense; No human can accept Darwin theory that
we came from animal ?! and other who said matter, energy, physic create our universe and human ....all
not logic
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Eisa Johali • Again I am taking about 'Great Creator' not 'god',
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Eisa Johali • Who is first the computer or the 'brain' .....can human create brain ?!!
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Eisa Johali • Again forget 'god' or human made gods ...I am taking about 'Great Creator'
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Eisa Johali • Also; forget 'believe ; faith' let us exchange personal logic thought only ...
- Who is first the computer or the 'brain' .?
- Can human create brain, human mind-brain'?
- Which is greater the computer or human brain " how many cells and tissues are there in the computer
& in baring ?
- Can human create any living thing with soul ?
1 month ago
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Frank Alles • Eisa, I see now that part of our language problem is your choice of the words "Great
Creator," which most English-speaking people would equate to "God." But it appears that you are
asking if there is an "Intelligent Designer," I believe.
As I was saying in response to Chris S the other day, I think he may be onto something when thinking
of an Intelligent Designer (and I used the word "God") in the context of a Multi-versal entity... an
Intelligent Designer who spans all universes and dimensions. But having said that I can't be sure that
such an Intelligent Designer exists because there is no real proof of his existence (at least not in our 3dimensional physical reality).
But another, perhaps more important question would be "If you believe in an Intelligent Designer, do
you think It is all good, all evil, or a mixed entity of both good and evil traits?"
If you think It is all-good, then It must have an all-evil counterpart in the negative Multi-verse, it would
follow.
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Anna Fernandes • @ Frank. The Bible is the inspired word of God whether you believe it or not is
another question. The Bible is a book on the history of the world and is full of prophecies. So far all the
prophecies have come true and we can see the unfolding of some more. It is only when you know the
Bible, study it and understand what it says then you will have no doubts about God and thus I have no
problems in believing the Bible. God says test every spirit. if it be from God or man. If it is from God it
will come true.
as regards Easter bunny, Santaclaus they are child's play and have no relevance to the word of God
And yes Frank I just need the love of Christ and what He has done for me at the cross. I dont need
commandments. Jesus came to free us from the curse of the law for by the law we are cursed and by
Jesus we are saved. There is no condemnation in Jesus. However big a sinner you are he loves you.
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Frank Alles • Thanks for the info Anna, I'm sure Jesus loves us all very much. Have a nice night.
Since you're tight with Jesus (practically a saint in my book) perhaps you could say a prayer for me. I'd
appreciate it.
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Anna Fernandes • Frank here it is 11.30 am though i know it is pretty late there. No I was a sinner like
all of us are, but I have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus. I am no saint. At present i am human but
would definitely aspire to be one. I pray that Jesus may reveal himself to you and you sincerely seek
him and you will find Him. This is my prayer for all mankind too.Goodnight Frank... God bless
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MikeUnfollow
Mike Rana • What is Sin ?
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Frank Alles • My definition of sin is:an act or deed that violates your own personal morality.
In other words, if you do something that you view as "sinful" by your own standards, you have sinned.
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• Flag as inappropriate
With Terrorism discussion
Eisa Johali • Sure terrorism never have link to Religion of all Holy Prophets ...It us due
human men mentality ...Only the crazy suicide them self and kill others peaceful humans
I delete it
Eisa Johali • "Religions" of Holy All Prophets One Religion Never Create Terrorism ....Humans are
the disaster create all current human disasters
25 days ago
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Eisa Johali • All current human researchers, comments and works have no justice, not equity, not fair
not honest, unethical and against humanity = Terrorism
Look what is going on in Syria !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????? in Mali .........In
Somali.... ......Iran.... all have no relation to religions never....who says is lying .....all are political,
economical. social special human needs and interests
25 days ago
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Eisa Johali • Yes terrorismue to sovereignty
22 days ago
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Eisa Johali • Yes terrorism due to \ outcome of sovereignty
22 days ago
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Eisa Johali • God Only One God is Well Known to Who Want To Know , see and feel ...If You
Worship God Only One God the Great Creator You Will see by feeling happy, then all we will live in
peace ...in Earthy Heaven
22 days ago
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Phebe Baltazzi • No more comments dear Sir @Eisa Johali (at least from my part) !!!
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Eisa Johali • Thanks Dear Phebe .....Welcome
I am sure in a day you will know the worthy truth
21 days ago
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Mike Rana • Thank you fro the lyrics Benoit
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Eisa Johali • imply link terrorism to human 'bad human or human with wrong understanding or special
interest ..." and all goodness to Religion.....Truth
16 days ago
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Len Robertson • Cut to the chase: if you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime.
16 days ago• Like
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Len Robertson • It's to be hoped that the media takes a hard look at WW1 and its consequences as we
near the anniversary of that disaster and that followed.
Why hasn't Stephen Spielburg or someone else done those eight days in hell at Verdun. There is plenty
of source material. They don't need to invent a scenario. All they have to do is pick the history of one
of the French regiments and replay everything as it happened. If it's even a tenth as accurate as it
actually was, people should leave the theater shell shocked. Who knows? Maybe some of them would
leave with newly whitened hair.
16 days ago• Like
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Eisa Johali • Human ......human .....humans are the crazy the satans, human the rulers, politicians, the
riches who look for more money and false religious promote the poor to suicide and kill others
16 days ago
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Phebe Baltazzi • We need to become choosers and not enslaved followers ! We know much but when
we come to the point of applying, primarely the arrogance and selfishness gains control! As in the case
of the majority of cases of cancer's treatment we apply chemotherapy which destroys healthy cells too,
while there are natural alternatives, already pooven by thousands of healed, while also a considerable
part of scientists talk and want to make serious research ( in which case of course only the cancerous
cells are naturally eliminated) we continue in the name of big profit to let die all these people !!!
The insufficiency of chemo has been prooven, but with the alternative healing methods, prooven to be
natural remedies, as cannot be patentised, money gain would become almost nule !!!
There is still much injustice in the name of "democratic justice" ...! Millions as to maybe billions have
"disappeared" from greek economy, that commoners have nothing to do with it, but still in the name of
"democratic justice" people are threatened of loosing their basic well-being, (in the same time that
salaries have been cut down up to the half), if they don't pay for the "sins" of the people that have
governed so far...! Just an example, with electricity bill comes (with the supplementary taxes of "due"
money) twice as much as in the past..., while cost of life cannot be diminished - due to exactly to all
these unbearable taxes! The excuse : people have not and are not paying their taxes...!!! What "official
organizations and state power"... in behind all this ???!
I believe that we have been used, and brain-washed to "live" little by little in an atmosphere of terror
and accept injustice !!! Most of you, i believe, know about the story of the cooked frog; it didn't
understand that temperature was going little by little always on, as arrived the moment that his aptitude
of self-defense couldnt' help it anymore for jumping out....In our days open wars are seen as stupid (and
of course are), came the time in the past of cold war, and now what kind of war do we have in the midst
of a "world economy" ??!
16 days ago• Like
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Len Robertson • Check out my preceding blog. If Muslim states behave toward their women
populations like abusive husbands at a time when there is a shortage of women in much of the world,
they are courting with disaster. Put it another way, would a pretty, young woman who faces third class
treatment in her current situation stay in that situation if she knew there were Japanese and Chinese
millionaires desperate for wives?
Any man who discovers 72 virgins in his next life is as close as he'll ever come to a woman is very
likely to have second thoughts about his personal situation. As has been said many times, be careful
what you wish for.
14 days ago• Like
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Eisa Johali • Len
Your actually is not actual …… ..instead of saying Muslim women turn down or what so you say
…Ask who live better, happy, safe, secure ??!! the Muslim women or the Western !!?
Ask Muslim women what they want …..what they like …..are they better than Western women in
everything …..
14 days ago
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Len Robertson • Honor killings, female circumcision, and being beaten for not wearing a head scarf or
wearing lipstick are a good thing? I don't think my two daughters would agree.
13 days ago• Like
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George Rohr • I think in the mind of a terrorist leader terrorism is sovereighnty to them. I believe kids
and young adults who have been indoctronated into thinking that all their problems stem from the
western world or Jews join the terrorist groups plus any anarchist who want to use the terrorist group to
do their dirty work for them so they can walk in and take over when mass disruption of government
takes place.They don't need any special weapons and little training they just need continual
brainwashing to make sure that the judgement of what is right and wrong in the recruits doesn't pop up
and keep them from following thru with the killing.
Mike Rana these are just my thoughts as to what you asked.
13 days ago• Like
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Continue with Tirnity
The Muslim faith thinks that monotheism is actually polytheism (a belief in multiple gods).
Birmingham
Your true except in phrase that " The Muslim faith thinks that monotheism is actually
polytheism (a belief in multiple gods)" may I don't understand !!
Do you mean "Muslims believe and worship more than one god " !!
If you mean that; It is not true Islam = Monotheism in Allah Only One God
Muslim faith thinks that monotheism = polytheism (a belief in multiple gods).
Very Interest discussion, at least for me 'ha ha ha' and the few who looking for
"Mercifulness, Compassionate ; Forgiveness…….." have to look for God the Only One God
the Great Creator; the Almighty; the Glorify "Allah" the Only Who has 99 Names the
Merciful, Forgiver. The Justice, The Scholar, Kindness , the First, the Last …….. (
http://www.faizani.com/articles/names.html;
Allah.htm#IN THE BEGINNING;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Islam; http://islamicbooks.info/H-1-Iman/01-
http://islamicbooks.info/H-1-Iman/01-Allah.htm#ALLAH CREATES MAN;
http://arthafez.com/GALLERY/99NAMESOFALLAH/index.html
All of These 99 are Reasons
All of These 99 are Reasons