use the draft as a basis to consult within their own individual partner

Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
Agenda Item 2
Page 1
Meeting of the Lake District National Park Partnership
Monday, 24 September 2012 at 10.00 a.m.
at the Lake District National Park Authority, Murley Moss, Kendal
Name
Lord Clark, Chairman
Steve Ratcliffe
Clive Wickham
Kate Harnott
Fleur Gilchrist
Jess Lawson
Bill Jefferson, Member
Richard Leafe
Bob Cartwright
Becky Willis
Richard Greenwood
Haydn Spedding
Mike Innerdale
David Thornton
Simon Humphries
Helen Younger
Keith Hitchen
Jonathan Brook
Anne Powell
Douglas Chalmers
Helen Titterington
Jack Ellerby
Graham Gill
Keith Jones
Cllr Malcolm Smith
Judith Nelson
Leslie Johnson
Sue Savege
Dave Champness
Carole Barr
Jim Walker
Viv Lewis
Lionel Spencer
Organisation
Apologies
Facilitator
Monitoring adviser
Secretariat
LDNPA
Cumbria Tourism
National Trust
National Farmers Union
Natural England
Cumbria County Council
Allerdale Borough Council
Copeland Borough Council
South Lakeland District Council
Cumbria Wildlife Trust
Cumbria LEP
Country Land & Business Association
ACT
Environment Agency
FLD
Forestry Commission
Robert Sheasby
Eden District Council
Robin Hooper
Oliver Shimmel
English Heritage
CALC
Nurture Lakeland
United Utilities
Local Access Forum
RSPB
Business Task Force
Federation Cumbria Commoners - Observer
DCMS (Item 6(b))
Jim Savege
Paul Shackley
Julie Betteridge
David Sykes
Stephen Broughton
Lorrainne Smyth
Jez Westgarth
David Claxton
Tony Conway
Bill Kenmir
Peter Hensman
Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
Agenda Item 3
Page 2
Item 6(d) The Carbon Budget and Carbon Reduction Priorities for the Partnership – a
facilitated session, as members of the Climate Change Sub Group:
Martin Allman
Cumbria County Council
Facilitating Session
Ian Baker
TADEA
Facilitating Session
Sam Hagon
LDNPA
Facilitating Session
Diane Hubbard
CAfS
Facilitating Session
Carissa Lough
LDNPA
Facilitating Session
Lucy McQuillan
1
Welcome, introduction and apologies
Lord Clark welcomed all to the meeting.
2
Minutes of meeting held on 18 June 2012
Agreed. In item 5 (a) Coordinated approached to learning (action 26) on page 5 – agreed
the action: circulate communications strategy for education groups to the Partnership be
amended to read: Action: circulate learning messages for education groups to the
Partnership.
3
Matters arising
Item 6(b) Partnership Annual Report – Steve Ratcliffe thanked those who had provided
comments on the draft. Copies had been sent to each partner organisations’ Chief
Executive and further copies were available on request from Clive Wickham or Jess
Lawson.
4
Partnership sub group activity – updates and papers for consideration
(a) Farming and Forestry Task Force
Keith Jones presented the Partnership with an update from this group and noted
progress to develop a tree, woodland and forestry strategy and action plan for Cumbria
and the Lake District. Funding for this was in place and 15 contractors had been invited
to tender for the project with a completion date of the end of March 2013.
Agreed recommendation: The Lake District National Park Partnership:
a. Notes the draft project plan, associated timescales and costs for a Trees,
Woodlands and Forestry Strategy and Action Plan for Cumbria and the
Lake District
(b) Land Management Strategy Sub Group
Jack Ellerby presented the Partnership with an update from this group noting that the
group were meeting on 25 September 2012 to discuss membership, terms of reference
and the delivery of the actions relating to the Partnership’s priority for valley planning.
Partner comments included the need for a coordinated approach between the work of the
group and the Farming and Forestry Task Force, and that there was no reference to
employment which was vital in terms of stabilising communities. Jack Ellerby
emphasised the need to develop a common understanding of whole valley planning
through a collaborative approach to land management, visitor management and
community planning by giving communities a greater say in setting the agenda and
actions.
The term “Observatory profile” in the paper referred to engaging with local groups to
provide data from the bottom up. It was important to have a common basic data set, for
example, number of farm units, camp sites and income profile before involving a
community.
Agreed recommendation: The Lake District National Park Partnership:
a. Agrees the Land Management strategy sub-group reviews its title,
membership and terms of reference reflecting its lead role for valley
planning; and.
Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
b.
Agenda Item 3
Page 3
Notes the preparation of a proposed standard approach to valley planning
for presenting to the December meeting of the Partnership.
(c) Business Task Force
Jim Walker presented the Partnership with an update from this group noting their current
three key priorities; simplifying administrative arrangement for Windermere, improving
the planning process and establishing a consistent car parking approach across the
National Park. Their last meeting visited Coniston Boating Centre to see a
demonstration of the new pay on exit car park system being piloted by the LDNPA and
congratulated them on this excellent example.
Agreed recommendation: The Lake District National Park Partnership:
a. Notes the outcomes of the July meeting of the Business Task Force.
(d) Lake District Still Waters Partnership
Bob Cartwright presented the Partnership with an update from this group and advised
that the 10th anniversary of Bassenthwaite Lake Reflections Programme was to be
celebrated with the Ninth Annual Lake District Still Waters Partnership Liaison meeting
on 16 November. The LDSWP fully supported the Whole Valley Planning approach to
be piloted at Ullswater.
Agreed recommendation: The Lake District National Park Partnership:
a. Notes the activity and updates since the previous meeting on 01 May 2012
(e) Climate Change Group
See item 6(d) and Annex A with notes of the facilitated session.
(f) External Fundraising Group
Sue Savege presented the Partnership with an update from this group. Attention was
drawn to coordination and prioritisation of HLF bids for the Lake District; progression
with Visitor Giving branding in the Lake District and nationally; development of an APP
encouraging visitor giving to all of the Partners projects. Steve Ratcliffe asked Nurture
Lakeland, as a member of the External Funding Group, for the Group to provide the
Partnership with a list of HLF bids agreed, submitted and being prepared for the
National Park and to keep Partners updated.
Steve Ratcliffe confirmed that due to the economic climate, the HLF bid for the Glebe
has been reduced in monetary value and focussed on the public realm. The bid had
been submitted by SLDC and backed by LDNPA, CCC and National Trust. The
Allocation of Land DPD would outline preferred land uses for within the Strategic
Regeneration Location, including a new hotel development. This document will be
consulted on in October.
Agreed recommendation: The Lake District National Park Partnership:
a. Note that the group met on 4 September 2012. Minutes of the meeting are
available.
(g) WHS Project Management Group
Keith Jones presented the Partnership with an update on progress with work to revise
the technical evaluation, including the Statement of Outstanding Universal Value, due
to be presented to the Partnership meeting in June 2013 for agreement prior to being
submitted to DCMS. It was important to note the need to develop the inter-relationship
between the WHS bid and the Management Plan for the National Park.
Steve Ratcliffe thanked those organisations who had provided financial support and
who had offered contributions in kind towards this next piece of work. Those Partners
who had not yet responded were invited to do so.
Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
Agenda Item 3
Page 4
Action: Revised WHS bid to be considered by the Partnership at the LDNPP
meeting in June 2013.
Agreed recommendation: The Lake District National Park Partnership:
a. Notes the progress of the Lakes World Heritage Site nomination and the
draft timeline of the Lakes World Heritage inscription shown as Annex 1
5
The Partnership’s Plan – where we are now: includes any action reporting)

2012 Review of the Partnership’s Plan and Partners Declarations to deliver
Steve Ratcliffe thanked all Partners, particularly the Partnership Plan Sub Group, for
contributions to the review, improving the process and providing feedback. On the
part of the LDNPA the review had involved staff and Members in order to improve
understanding of the Partnership Plan (the Plan), and in setting the priorities to
ensure the actions start making a difference. The onus was now on Partners to
deliver the actions. Consequently all partners were reminded to sign a Declaration
to deliver on behalf of each organisation. LDNPA confirmed it had signed its
declaration to deliver. A summary document was also being drafted to accompany
the Plan and this will be circulated to all Partners when completed. Progress with
the Plan priorities will be considered at every Partnership meeting and full monitoring
every six months.
Prosperous Economy
Keith Hitchen noted that under PE3 – 1B – MWRS would not be in existence by
December 2013. Steve Ratcliffe noted that the three decision making bodies were to
decide on the future role previously undertaken by MWRS and that the Plan needs to
be amended
Leslie Johnson referred to PE3 – 2 – enterprise hubs for small businesses. Steve
Ratcliffe confirmed that the means for spending this money had yet to be agreed and
it was not yet known if planning permission would be required for those units at
Ambleside.
Spectacular Landscape
Mike Innerdale referred to action 48 – landscape scale projects and recommended
including the visitor management work in Wasdale. This was agreed.
Mike Innerdale highlighted that the NPAPA report recommended improving the
biodiversity in the National Park. Steve Ratcliffe confirmed that this had not been
identified as a priority this year by the Partnership but that we need to closely
monitor progress, particularly the work of the new Local Nature Partnership and the
development of a new biodiversity indicator. Additionally action 52 and whole valley
planning should further biodiversity.
Action:
 An easy to read summary of the Plan priorities to be circulated to all Partners,
when available.
 Reference to MWRS Partnership under PE3 – 1B to be removed
 Wasdale to be included in the Partnership Plan.
Agreed recommendation: The Lake District National Park Partnership:
a. Agree the revised significant updates, shown as Annex 2 and the revised
actions, shown as Annex 3, which together constitute the major review
updates to Part Three of the Partnership’s Plan
b. Delegate any further final pre-publish, editorial changes to the Partnership
Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
c.
Agenda Item 3
Page 5
Plan sub group: and
Requests all partner organisations sign a 'Declaration to deliver' actions
which they lead or are involved in Annex 4
Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
6
Agenda Item 3
Page 6
The Partnership’s Plan – our priorities and where we want to be:
(a) Adventure Capital – what it is and next steps
Richard Greenwood gave a presentation, noting that the review of the Plan provided an
opportunity to review and refresh the AdCap strategy first prepared in 2009. AdCap
was well established in Cumbria, and the National Park, as a world class physical
environment set in a spectacular landscape. AdCap’s ambitions, working with the public
and private sectors, was to achieve health and economic prosperity using £750K of
European money, and match funding, with a strong programme of development at
Grizedale/Whinlatter, around the coast and at Honister. The Olympic Games had
encouraged healthier lifestyles and a growing participation in sport, generating an
additional £7.5M to the Cumbrian economy. There had been a significant increase in
visitors to events and festivals such as the Great North Swim with 2,000 participants in
2008 and 10,500 participants in 2012. Just a 1% increase in numbers to those events
would have a significant impact on the economy.
The key issues were to increase the range and quality of opportunities for adventure
‘dabblers’ and family markets by improving accommodation, transport links (to assist in
reducing carbon emissions) and opportunities for disadvantaged groups. Additionally
AdCap offers improved health, wellbeing and social inclusion for residents and visitors,
whilst promoting Cumbria as an all year destination.
Richard Greenwood presented a draft revised Ad Cap Strategy and asked partners to
take this away and provide comments by 9 November. This would allow those
comments to be considered and a further iteration of the Strategy be presented to
Partnership in December.
Discussions centred around:
 The need to secure additional funding to deliver AdCap including its marketing;
 The need to encourage youngsters to get involved in the environment and
support National Parks.
Richard Greenwood advised that Partners were discussing a possible Tour of Britain
Mountain Stage in the Lake District.
Action:
 Partners to respond to the consultation by 5.00 p.m. on 9 November 2012 and
 The Steering Group to prepare final strategy and action plan for agreement at
the Partnership meeting on 3 December 2012.
Agreed recommendation: The Lake District National Park Partnership:
a. Note the content of the draft Adventure Capital Strategy and suggest any
amendments, as necessary and
b. use the draft as a basis to consult within their own individual partner
organisations, as necessary noting the deadlines
(b) Mobile Infrastructure project - DCMS
Lionel Spencer referred to the Chancellor’s decision in October 2010 to invest £150M in
improving mobile infrastructure where up to 20% of the population currently have no
mobile connectivity. DCMS were currently undertaking a procurement process with
four mobile operators, with a decision due by the end of January 2013.
Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
Agenda Item 3
Page 7
For this project, the UK had been divided up into four areas, with Cumbria being one of
the first to be rolled out. “Not spots” (areas currently not able to have basic 2G
coverage) have been identified, which shows data on the number of premises involved.
Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
Agenda Item 3
Page 8
It is estimated that 18 new masts will be required in the Lake District National park to
address the “Not spots”. The new masts, of varying sizes depending on land mass
involved, need to be installed in line of sight to an existing networking site, require
planning permission and for all four operators to use that mast. Everything Everywhere
(Orange and T-Mobile) and Cornerstone (Vodafone and O2) were each working
together to unite their technologies.
For a successful roll out it will be essential to get community buy in, as the mobile or
broadband infrastructure was vital for economic growth. The funding would be provided
on a first come first served basis and if communities were resistant, this would be
moved to another location. DCMS were holding similar discussions with other National
Parks. The project was linked to broadband delivery in the UK and a number of
stakeholders have been identified and engaged in this process. The Partnership will be
provided with further updates as the project progresses. Jack Ellerby said FLD were
keen to be involved in this initiative to maintain sustainable communities.
Richard Leafe reported on Owen Paterson’s recent visit to Threlkeld to see Everything
Everywhere’s (Orange and T-Mobile) 4G broadband initiative. Defra were supporting
the rolling out of broadband in the National Park and the LDNPA as planning authority
were keen to offer pre-planning advice and try to agree locations before planning
permission was sought. There were a number of masts with only one provider and he
questioned whether these could be upgraded for all the other operators to use for 3G or
4G. Lionel Spencer explained that the project dealt only with 2G and plugging the gap
where there was no infrastructure. Feedback from operators in terms of 4G indicated
that where there was a MIP mast (allows mobile device users to move from one
network to another while maintaining a signal) in place this could serve well for a given
area because the MIP was already there. Mobile operators based their statistics on
15M visitors and 42,000 residents but it was essential that both could get access to
information such as how to travel round the National Park. Keith Hitchen advised that
the Mobile Association did not take visitor numbers into account as there was no
revenue or benefit.
A concern was raised about State Aid. DCMS were shortly to submit their findings to
The European Commission in Brussels. A decision is expected at the end of the year.
Further information can be obtained by contacting: [email protected]
Action: Richard Leafe/Steve Ratcliffe to discuss LDNPA involvement in preplanning process for this project.
(c) Affordable Housing – Planning control over holiday home ownership
Steve Ratcliffe reported that SLDC were leading this priority and had set up a very
successful meeting in June with the then Communities Minister, Andrew Stunnell and
five Cumbrian MPs. The meeting highlighted the difficulties of holiday homes in certain
parishes such as Chapel Stile, where they represented 75% of the housing stock.
Holiday homes were extremely important to the economy of the National Park but they
also affected the vitality of the community. The Minister, whilst sympathetic, was
concerned about the legality of introducing a Use Class approach in terms of planning
law and invited us to provide a response to the use class order which could be used in
consultations with DCLG. Steve Ratcliffe confirmed that statistics were also being
obtained from other National Parks, with Exmoor and Dartmoor being particularly
supportive. If a pilot is necessary then the Lake District would be used
(d) The Carbon Budget and Carbon reduction priorities for the Partnership – a
facilitated session
Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
Agenda Item 3
Page 9
Becky Willis lead a presentation reminding the Partnership that the carbon budget is a
national and international initiative linked to the 2008 Climate Change Act. The aim
was to reduce the emission of carbon and other greenhouse gases by 1% year on year.
Currently 41% of emissions are created by visitors to the National Park and one way of
substantially reducing this is by encouraging visitors to use different means of transport
and to stay longer. Other initiatives included:
 measuring the carbon effects of land management
 advice to businesses from CBEN (Cumbria Business and Environment Network)
saving 2000 tonnes
 Cumbria Warm Homes project – offering energy efficiency checks to householders
saving 5600 tonnes
 Taste Cumbria – promoting local food and drink saving an estimated 911 tonnes.
 The GoLakes Travel project was expected to deliver significant carbon savings.
A breakout session, copy attached, allowed the Partnership to look at priorities for
further action which would then be taken away by the Climate Change Sub Group for
developing in to an action plan. This action plan will be presented to the Partnership at
its December meeting.
The Climate Change Sub Group and External Fundraising Group continued to look at
external fundraising sources and developing these initiatives.
Agreed recommendation: The Lake District National Park Partnership:
a. Notes the progress made to date on the carbon budget – shown in Annex 1
b. Agrees priorities for further action to achieve carbon savings; and
c. Delegates to the Climate Change Sub-Group responsibility for developing
an action plan to be presented at a future meeting of The Partnership
The action points from the break-out sessions are attached as Annex A.
7
Any Other Business
Consultations from United Utilities
Dave Champness of United Utilities advised that there were to be two consultations over the
next twelve months:
 a Drought Plan to be issued before Christmas 2012 and
 Water Resources Management Plan – looking 25 years ahead at water supply in the
North West and the need to balance keeping water in the area with the need to
supply water to the economy.
NPAPA Improvement Plan
Mike Innerdale of National Trust asked when the NPAPA Improvement Plan was to come
back to the Partnership meeting.
 Action: Steve Ratcliffe to follow up and report back to the next meeting.
8
Date of Next Meeting
The next Partnership meeting will take place on Monday, 3 December 2012 at 10.00 a.m.
9
Dates of Partnership Meetings in 2013
Monday, 4 March 2013
Monday, 17 June 2013
Monday, 23 September 2013
Monday, 2 December 2013
Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
Agenda Item 3
Page 10
Lake District National Park Partnership
24 September 2012
Annex A
Page 1
6(d) The Carbon Budget and Carbon Reduction Priorities for the Partnership – a facilitated session
Bob’s Group (verbal - top three initiatives)

Carissa’s Group (verbal - top three
initiatives)
Personal and individual commitment and they are
all written down
Personal
Local produce
Asset Management
We all ought to be ambassadors and promoters for
Low Carbon, AdCap and local produce.
By being centrally located, stop in the Lake District
Local produce – champion carbon labelling.
Promote corporately – Sticklebarn pub, Taste
Cumbria Food Festival at Cockermouth
Energy efficiency of our buildings, e.g. chimney
flues, roll out across the county. Shared facilities,
carbon sinks. Would advocate some form of
reporting back and challenge ourselves and look
for further synergies that you work together.

Bob’s Group (flipchart information)
Carissa’s Group (flipchart information)
What my organisation can contribute:

5% reduction in travel; 3% reduction in energy; water
saving (Forestry Commission)

Long-term use for timber; managed use of
woodland/woodfuel; new woodlands; land management
to improve carbon sinks/protect bogs (Forestry
Commission)

Promote Lake District assets to encourage holidays
closer to home (Forestry Commission)

Visitor travel – through GoLakes Travel – 16000 tonnes
of reduction in three years. Change habits while here.
Don’t come by car! Rail (Cumbria Tourism)

Taste Cumbria: local produce; beer festival – all local.
Carbon rating on produce? (Cumbria Tourism)

Adventure Capital – educate/inform (Cumbria Tourism)

Chimney flues – following SENS project – potential for
7,500 – 10,000t CO2 savings, funnelled through ECO but
needs pump priming for evidence base (CAfS)

Food agenda – Sticklebarn pub (National Trust)

3% annual reduction on energy; building
stock/renewables – hydro in Langdale (National Trust)

Land management (peatlands) (National Trust)

Valley Planning; masts and trees; ELMS; own carbon
reductions (LDNPA)
What my organisation can contribute:

Investing in agri-environment schemes; upland and
lowland peat (Natural England)

Upland management – focus more on carbon
benefits (Natural England)

Advice to farm businesses – need to expand.
Funding about to end. (CREA and Natural England)

Environmental Quality Mark (Nurture Lakeland)

Sustainability ‘big tick’ for communities (LAF)

What is the carbon footprint of LAF? Travel to
meetings and to site visits. How can LAF reduce
travel mileage? Resource materials locally (LAF)

Tap water – use this as it’s from the Lake District –
rather than buying Perrier/Evian (UU)










Knowing where the biggest gains are to
convert those figures specifically to
organisations and tell people what the carbon
budget for this meeting was
Using local product and sourcing local produce
– difficult with supermarkets driving costs
down. Want to buy local but cheaper to go to
supermarket. Procurement process to go
direct to supplier.
Tap water not bottled
Monitoring simple way for organisations to
understand carbon reductions and monitor this
themselves.
Clive/Richard’s Group (verbal - top three
initiatives)





Insulation – existing and new building
Use local products, e.g. Windermere and Ambleside
Fairtrade
Local Authority enforcement ensure buildings are up
to standard, e.g. insulation/green deal
Peat Management and awareness of
Opportunities for hydro and biomass
Clive/Richard’s Group (flipchart information)
What my organisation can contribute:





Peat management (CWT)
Biomass – supply and own business – convert (NT)
Highways coppicing (CCC)
Implementation of CS16 policy (LDNPA)
Involvement of projects and advice – energy,
transport. Measures e.g. insulation (TADEA)
Lucy’s Group (verbal - top three initiatives)
 Transport – although people recognised that this has
been talked about for a long time, sustainable,
affordable and accessible transport. Working from
home, more shopping from home but balancing that
with having social interaction. Making transport very
affordable and accessible.
 Local sourcing e.g. food and business and benefits
that would bring (buy less, eat less, waste less, live
longer)
 Use low carbon products for building homes, e.g.
wood and insulate existing housing stock
Lucy’s Group (flipchart information)
What my organisation can contribute:
 Improve awareness of support and grants available
 Communicate to parish councils & residents: what’s in it
for me? To get people on board. Plain English version of
benefits (CALC)
 Reduce waste; carbon efficiency for own organisation
(CCC)
 Promote reduce / reuse / recycle employment and
training – e.g. refurbishing fridges
 Woodfuel/renewable energy – grants available to
woodland owners (Forestry Commission)
 Encourage sustainable land management
Lake District National Park Partnership
3 December 2012
Agenda Item 3
Page 12
What else I would like to see the Partnership doing:

Challenge ourselves: report back

All to advocate, advertise, promote GoLakes Travel and
aims of the project

Promote SORCE (guide to sustainability of recreational
event)

Energy efficiency

Renewables

Carbon storage

Food – local produce; carbon labelling
What else I would like to see the Partnership doing:

Joining up existing programmes e.g. farm advice,
Seeing is Believing events as demonstration

Encouraging better links between suppliers and
retailers – Local & Fair

Cost of buying local is difficult as supermarkets
drive price down. Local procurement group?

Marketing local food

Community ‘catalyst’

Monitoring – simple monitoring system

Carbon cost e.g. of Partnership meetings
What else I would like to see the Partnership doing:
 Home insulation – second homes/holiday lets;
bespoke local building advice, breeze block buildings
in Windermere/Ambleside (particular kind of
construction)
 SLDC – building regs and green deal
 Greater awareness and info on hydro – including
agency guidelines. Promotion of hydro.
 Woodfuel
 Advocacy on building regulations and code for new
housing
What else I would like to see the Partnership doing:
Top three priorities:

Travel: All to be advocates; ambassadors; advertisers;
promoters – of GoLakes Travel and AdCap. Central UK
position offers competitive advantage

Local produce: all to promote, use, supply local;
champion carbon labelling

Asset management: energy efficiency; renewables;
carbon sinks; shared facilities
Top three priorities:

Knowing where the biggest gains will be on the pie
chart and converting this to figures that are easy to
understand – e.g. what’s the carbon cost of this
meeting?

Sourcing local products – a local
buying/procurement group. Tap water not bottled!

Monitoring – a simple way for organisations to
monitor carbon, reductions and increases.
Top three priorities:
 Insulation and use of local products; local authority
enforcement of building regulations; green deal
opportunities
 Peat management and awareness
 Opportunities for hydro and biomass – advocacy,
advice, implementation
Top three priorities:

Transport – negate the need to travel – working at
home/more affordable and accessible alternatives

Local sourcing – food, business – buy less, eat less,
waste less. Buy more local – live longer!

Use low-carbon products for building new homes –
e.g. wood – and insulate existing housing stock
Also need to report back: challenge, measure, look for synergy.






Affordable public transport
Promote locally-sourced food for residents and visitors
Reduce food wastes – social and economic benefits
Food quality and quantity
Change culture – throwaway society
Promote Taste Cumbria/Local & Fair/Made in Cumbria
(need more permanence to these brands)