Interviewee:
Mary Ann Martinovich Higgins (M)
Interviewer:
Gillian O’Mara
Date of Interview:
8th March, 1994
Transcription notes: nil
E0033 Track 1
M:
Oh, that would have come on the thing.
I:
It’s the 8th March today and we’re doing an interview on some of your feelings
and life in Wanneroo. Could you please tell us your name and maiden name?
M:
Mary Ann Martinovich.
I:
And when were you born, Mary?
M:
I was born on the 26th of May, 1914.
I:
Whereabouts?
M:
Boulder.
I:
That’s here in Western Australia.
M:
Yes.
I:
And when did you move to Wanneroo?
M:
Ah, 1920.
I:
In 1920 where did you live?
M:
We lived at the what was called those days 10 ½ Mile peg sort of thing we called
it. And of course now as you know our home is Conti’s Restaurant.
I:
Can you explain what the house looked like when you were there?
M:
Well of course it’s not the same as it is now, but the original limestone is the
same. But the inside wasn’t … it was just one wall of limestone built, and a roof on it. It
had no ceilings in it, it was just the rafters, the building or the pitching of the roof
actually. There was no ceiling in it and the walls weren’t plastered. We did that
eventually with the workmen that came from Europe and were able to do that sort of
work. They did it for us. But we didn’t line it with … like you do now with the
plasterboard, the ceiling. We did it with floorboards, ‘cause that was the easiest to do at
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the time. Plasterboard, I don’t know whether … I suppose there was … must have been
around but the men put up the boards and they still remain there today.
I:
What effects did your first six years of your life, before you moved to Wanneroo,
the war, have on you?
M:
Well the war had very little on me because I was only young, I was only six, six
going on for seven when we went to Wanneroo. But I have memories of Boulder even
though I was that young, ‘cause the Aborigines were very frequently around, and lots of
times in their war paint, and of course to a child that, you know, sticks in its mind. It did
mine anyway, ‘cause they chased me one day. I gave them cheek and … I was taking
soup, my mother made some soup, there was a lot of single men around, and they relied
on the married women, you know, giving them a meal. And he hadn’t been well so I was
taking this billy of soup to him. I think I finished up hopping over the fence, gate. I
couldn’t hop the fence ‘cause most of them were six foot tall because of the Aborigines,
so, not that they were dangerous in any way, but they used to come around begging and
to keep them out everyone had a six foot fence around their home and practically a gate
to match so that they couldn’t come to the door. They’d sing out from the gates and that
and asking for tobacco and bread and different things that they wanted. Of course my
mother was a softie, she used to always give them something so they were around our
way quite a bit.
I:
So by the time you moved to Wanneroo you were school age.
M:
Yes.
I:
Where did you go to school?
M:
Wanneroo was my first school. We used to walk three miles there and three miles
back, yes, until Mr Steele converted a wagon into a sort of mini bus thing. You had seats
each side and steps at the back so as we could get on to it, but it was drawn by horses.
And later of course he had a motor one but when he first starting taking the children to
school it was just a horse drawn one.
I:
Did you go on to other education after you left the primary school?
M:
Well I attempted to go to a higher one because I was always interested in school.
But I went to St Brigid’s for a while but there was no transport. We had to catch the milk
wagon that came out and got the milk and come home on it. If you missed of a night
time, tough bickies, you couldn’t get home. So I tried that for about six months and then
had to give up. And I still only … wasn’t even 13 at the time, because I was nearly two
years in 6th Standard out there. There was no further to go. But I did love my schooling,
and I would like to have gone further.
I:
Do you remember any of the teachers?
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M:
Well, Mr Harris was one and Mr Spiers was there with his wife and two
daughters. He … more so remembered him because of … he was there a bit longer than
the other one. Well I believe his name was Mr Harris. I asked to rectify that when we
went to the Perry Lake reunion out there. And somebody said his name was Harris. But
he was only out there … used to only come out there and go home for weekends. He had
a wife and daughter in town somewhere. But Mr Spiers had his residence out there and
his wife was very helpful to us girls. She taught us lots of things, preserving and making
jams and things, and preserving figs. She did them in a sort of rolled them in icing and
they were beautiful. That sticks and, you know, remains in my mind quite … because of
the fact that I had never seen them done that way. And then she taught us sewing. She …
we did fancy work. And the girls of course went to the same school. Actually there was
two girls. There’s only one remaining now I believe, the other one passed away. One was
Jean and I just don’t know the other one. Jean’s the one that I met again at Perry’s Lakes.
And … but we used to have games. The teachers were very good. We didn’t have
anybody extra to teach us or anything and then we had no recreation. We built … the
school children built the tennis court. They brought the stones there and we … of course
with the help of some of the fathers and that, and then later on they put the nets and that
up, but we hammered the stones down in and helped them out in that respect, the boys,
the bigger boys and the girls helped. And then we did have a tennis court. But then of
course there were so many of us it used to be a bit hard to get a game. Everybody would
want to play. But we all managed to have our fun out there. We played, well it was
rounders now and these days they call it baseball but those days it was rounders. We
didn’t have any cricket, we weren’t cricket fans. But when the tennis court came up we
had a lot of fun with that.
I:
Mary, would you name your brothers and sisters for me?
M:
My eldest brother was John and the next one was Tony. He’s in Kingsway now,
he lives in Kingsway. And I had a sister, Rose, and a sister Ruby and the youngest
brother of the family was Frank.
I:
And where did you come in the family?
M:
I was the eldest, of course, one that did all the work.
I:
What sort of house jobs did you do around the home?
M:
Oh well practically everything, help. We used to go down mostly in the gardens
and I used to milk the cow when I was only about 10 years old. And used to help down in
the garden. I learned to drive when I was 11, to help out, and pack tomatoes, pick peas,
pick beans. And at the younger time, before I started doing the bit heavier jobs, I used to
help out when the men were planting things, I’d go along with the seedlings and drop
them where they could plant them. They’d come along behind and plant them, you know,
you have … from the time you’re about eight years old you started working out there.
Everyone had a job to do. And of course as you got older you had more things to do. But
in the house I used to help the mother, used to look after the bread, cut all the bread up so
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that it wouldn’t go flat, wouldn’t … it would have to rise, keep it warm. And we used to
do it in the oven at the time, first, and then some of the workmen made us a proper
bakery oven outside which was a big boom because we could put several loaves of bread
in there. Whereas in the oven, you could more or less only put two at the most to cook
properly. And when we had the oven built of course, then things were better. And we
used to make several loaves of bread a day. We always had workmen, used to have to
make their afternoon tea and take it down to the gardens for them when I came home
from school. Of course I wasn’t there in the mornings. I didn’t like missing school so
sometimes you had to if something cropped up, when any of the children were sick and
the mother had to go down the gardens to help out with the packing, I used to have to
stop home and look after the children. Of course being the eldest and five years older
than the next one to me, a lot of the responsibility for them fell on me. But as you got
older you had different jobs to do.
[10:12]
I:
In the home you lived in, do you know who built it?
M:
Well I was told by our neighbour that two brothers called Iles, and they lived up
Moore River way somewhere, had built the house. But when I asked her a few years later
as she got … ‘cause she’s 93 now, and I asked her later, you know, did she remember
telling me who built them, she said she hadn’t … well she told you she didn’t remember
anything that’s why she wouldn’t come … Mrs White was the one I’m referring to, she
was a Darch. She lived next door to us. They have a dairy farm. And when I asked her
again she didn’t remember. But I remember her telling me that the two brothers, Iles,
built the house. But of course any information I wouldn’t have on them at all. They’d be
long gone now, ‘cause they would have been nearly middled aged or around about their
40s those days. So …
I:
When you left school what did you do?
M:
Well I helped around the place, apart from trying to go to school, to St Brigid’s
for six months, I helped around the house and down the garden and drove the truck for
my father when he wouldn’t have a driver for it. Carted limestone for the roads for a
while until some of the men objected to a woman driving a truck. Those days it was
unheard of, sort of. Well I wasn’t a woman, I was only a child really, 11, 12, you know.
All I did was the driving. Sometimes I’d throw some of the limestone off but mostly the
men would do it and I think that’s what they objected to, having to, you know, unload the
truck. And … but when the father couldn’t find anyone to drive, they … those days they
never stayed very long. They were mostly drifters that worked out there on the roads and
a few of the locals drove for him for a while but then they’d get something else more
interesting than just driving the truck. And I’d help him out ‘cause he had two at the time
and he couldn’t drive both. But …
I:
What road are you talking about?
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M:
Well Main Road was one of them, when they took up the planks. There was a lot
of planks and the round wooden ones, their blocks, in front of where Waldock’s (sic)
there for about, oh I suppose, oh a few hundred yards or more there were the blocks. And
had to shift them. My dad got the contract to shift them and there were some further
down and they put them up Gnangara Road. And then later on they decided they would
build the road up Gnangara Road and I carted limestone up there and of course carted the
limestone down to where they’d taken the blocks away and did that. And past our own
house, the road was done too because the … some tents there where they used to camp
and then they’d shift camp as they went along further. But it was mostly up to there, and
just around the corner from Pearsall’s garage. After that we … the father didn’t … he
went up the country and worked, mostly, so that … but most of the blocks and there were
some of the planks, he did most of those, he shifted most of them and then brought the
limestone along to fill in.
I:
How old were you when you got married and how did you meet your husband?
M:
Well I was 18 when I got married, like a fool. My husband, I met him in
Leederville. We … two girls that I was going with happened to know them and I used
never go out because I was … I used to work long hours. I was the only one working at
the time, of course the Depression was on. My dad had lost his job. And we had three
children at school, my two brothers, and somebody had to bring in some money to buy
shoes, books and things for them. And I used to work long hours at a fruit shop in
Leederville. Of course being able to drive, he had two shops and I was able to take the
stuff from one shop to the other. And I met him … one night they talked me into going
out with them and he happened to be amongst them and he had a push bike. So I pinched
his push bike and went for a ride. And that’s how we met. He … the pushbike belonged
to his employer so he was very worried about it, he thought he wasn’t going to get it
back. And that’s how we met. And I found out he was born in Kalgoorlie but we didn’t
know that of course until later. That was the beginning.
I:
And how many children did you have?
M:
Three. Two girls and a boy.
I:
Mary, what was your religious upbringing in the area of Wanneroo?
M:
Well we had no religion out there when we went there. But my parents were
Catholic and then the Sisters, that’s how I happened to go to St Brigid’s later, but they
came out there one day, driven in a sulky by a driver and of course those days they were
very, very strict. Our house, being close to the road and it was the one they stopped at,
and asked me would I take them to all the Catholic families around the place. Well as it
was so scattered, you couldn’t take them to all, so I took them to the ones that were
nearest to the road and that. And eventually they got to know all of them, and then they
had a church service. Father Maloney from Mt Hawthorn, he used to also be in Osborne
Park, he came out and had the first Catholic service out there. And they … every time
they came out they’d stop at our place and they’d have lunch there, but the driver had to
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sit outside and they sat in a room, my bedroom actually. They wouldn’t … you
couldn’t … they wouldn’t eat amongst anybody else then, they were very, very strict and
they used to have their lunch in my bedroom. And then of course, as I say, I tried to go to
school there but it was … wasn’t convenient. And that’s how the first religion came out
there, to Wanneroo. And then Father Prendiville, who became Archbishop Prendiville, he
came out there and gave some services. And also Father … a Father Murphy. He was a
very nice person. But Father Maloney, he was a bit of a hard nut to crack. But he was
very, very strict in his religion. But that’s how it came out there. When we were first out
there of course there was none, not even a … you know, any other religion.
I:
Do you remember any particular festivities or sports affairs or gatherings of the
people as a whole, of Wanneroo?
M:
Well Perry’s Lakes … Perry’s Paddock, I should say, I don’t know why I call it
Lake, although it had a lake down the bottom of it but it was called Perry’s Paddock, they
used to put a fence around it and paint it white once a year and have horse racing. And
they had foot racing and stalls, a couple of stalls, you know, people that sold things came
out with a stall and that. And that used to be the biggest thing they had. But they used to
have square dancing, they’d have … well, it wasn’t called square dancing then, it was
called the Alberts and the what-have-you, you know, the old fashioned dancing. And they
had a popular girl competition. Had a few … then they started the picture shows out
there. They had picture shows and it was done in the old hall, the old tin hall that they
had there. (Phone rings)
I:
We were talking about the dances.
[19:06]
M:
Yes. Yes, they were very, very interesting, of course I was young but the people
were all so generous, everybody joined in, you know, you’d get up … at that time I was
only about 12 years old, and you’d get up and you’d have a dance with everybody. The
older people were very good in that respect, you didn’t just sit there all night watching.
Of course children used to go everywhere with their parents those days. And if my
parents didn’t go, well I went with the neighbours, the Darchs from next door. And they
had a daughter, she’s four years older than I am, and I used to sort of be companion to her
because her sister was quite a bit older than her. She was about nine years older and the
boys were in between, so of course the boys didn’t want her tagging along whenever
they’d go. We used to even go right to North Beach to the dances out there when they
had them. A Mr Hopkins used to run them. And then the Nookenburrah, there was a hall
there and they used to go to the dances there. But Wanneroo were quite good, they
regularly had a dance, you know, every so often. And then of course the pictures started
once a week later on. When they first started they weren’t so frequent. Often they’d break
down, you’d have to sit and wait ‘til they fixed them up, but it was something for them to
go to.
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I:
Do you remember how much it used to cost you to go to the dances or to the
pictures?
M:
No, I don’t in fact. I really don’t think they charged anything in those days. They
might have for the older people, you know, but I don’t ever remember paying anything.
But of course the pictures we did, but what it was I wouldn’t know. Be only about a
shilling, whatever, those days. You used to be able to get into the pictures when my
children were babies in Leederville for … they had a special night for eight pence, so I
mean wouldn’t have been more than about a shilling to go in those days to the pictures
out there. So, but I wouldn’t remember, that’s what I regret really that … that I didn’t sort
of think of it at that time, of course being young you don’t think it … (phone rings). Oh
this is ridiculous.
[21:27]
E0033 Track 2
M:
… cinema. Yeah, but it was just … it was just in the hall, but it was very, very
pleasant, you know, to the people out there. So we all really enjoyed it. Yes, it was one of
the most meeting places. Perry’s Lake (sic) was only once a year run. They had the …
and but that was, you know, every week, came in weekly. And it was very welcome.
I:
Mary, can you remember who your neighbours were and other people around the
town were?
M:
Oh yes, our neighbours next door was a Mrs Darch. She was widowed just after
we … just after we came there. And she was left with eight children, four boys and four
girls. And across the lake were Pearsalls, were Duffys, and there were Gibbs down on the
main road down the road from us. And there was Jones, they had the phone bizzo there,
they could get in touch, you know, they were like an exchange sort of thing. And the
other side of us of course was the Cockmans. And then further up was the son, another
Cockman. And then there was Crisafullis, and further out, off the main road or more,
Ashbys, and Tappings were up Pinjar Road. Everybody knew everybody at that particular
time. And of course there was relations. There was a couple of Ashbys and a couple of
Gibbs and a couple of Duffys. There were some Duffys down where Waldocks were, and
they had 10 children. And there were some Gibbs there, and they had … oh members in
their family … there … I think there was only about six in their family. And then there
was Gibbs further up at Yanchep. He was a sort of caretaker, the two boys were going …
they weren’t actually going to our school. I think they were older. You see when I was
going to school, there was girls 16 and 18 going to school because they hadn’t had
schooling. And so they went back, sort of, to have a bit of schooling and they were with
the younger ones. And the Gibbs girls, they were 16 and 18, and even Elsie Tapping, she
was older. And they used to come from up Pinjar Road to come to school. And who were
the other older girls? There was about six of them altogether: two Gibbs, Tapping, and …
(pause) I can’t remember the others. But there was about six of them I think. And they
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came to school to … don’t know whether they’d had school anywhere else, but while
they were in Wanneroo there was no school until … I started at the proper age, I was only
about six or seven, and I hadn’t been to school before, but some of them may have been
somewhere else and then they came and caught up on more schooling, and that was when
the teacher that only came out during the week, he didn’t live out … well he stayed in the
house the week, but then he went away weekends, went back to his own family in Perth.
I:
Did you ever ride horses or did you walk everywhere or …
M:
Oh no, I rode horses, I was horse mad, yes. I got a niece now has about six of
them. She’s horse mad too. She’s got Arabian horses. She’s won a lot of ribbons. One
room, the wall’s full of ribbons that she’s won. And I have another niece that’s very
interested but she couldn’t afford to, she used to just go out and ride. And then I have
another niece that’s up Bellenden(?) way. They have a couple of horses there and she
does a lot of riding, but I used to do anything to be able to ride. We didn’t have a riding
horse but next door did and if I did them a favour they’d let me … lend me a horse.
Weekends my mother would send me down for fowl … we had fowls but only for our
own … for eggs. And there was a place there near Hepburn Avenue, just this side of it,
Perth side of it, people by the name of Pike had a poultry, and I used to go down every
Sunday. And of course it was an excuse to go and borrow a horse from next door to ride
from our home to there and get this chook for Sunday dinner. Yes, so, and when we went
out, the Darchs … I don’t know whether they got interested at the time but there was
some people living across the lake, the name of Howells. He was from the First World
War and he was given land over there after the war, you know, was sort of repat. And he
had a home over there and he … they had about six children. I think they had three boys
and three girls. Well we used to go over there ‘cause the parents played the piano and the
violin and one of the boys could and the girl could play the piano and the boy played the
violin and we’d have either a games night or a musical night.
Well those days there was … we had to ride the horses, there was no other way of getting
there besides where that water is now, we used to have to ride through there and the water
would be up to the horse’s tummy at times. And we’d double-dink, you know, we’d get
on, two of us on the one horse and depending if the water was low enough for us to get
across, we’d go over there of an evening and come home and they’d dump me home,
chuck me off the horse sort of thing and I’d go home there because we were right on the
road, and they’d continue on home. But no, we had a lot of fun that way too. But mostly,
as I say, it was the socials and the pictures that were the biggest attraction out there. But
eventually one of the boy Darchs married the girl Howell, and the other one, the other girl
married one of the Duffys from out that way. So it was all sort of family. And the other
boy Darch, he married one of the girls whose parents had the property there opposite,
Kingsway. There’s vacant land there and I think there’s a tank still standing. Well they
came out from England, her parents, she was an only child, and they built a house there
out of hessian and whitewashed it, made it waterproof. And they used to have a most
beautiful flower garden. I don’t know what work he did, if any. I shouldn’t say that I
suppose but he didn’t seem to. He seemed to work around the property there. So whether
that was his main interest I don’t know. But the other boy Darch married Dorothy Fry, I
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think her name was, Dorothy Fry. Yes, Dorothy Fry. Well there was a cousin there and I
just get mixed up with the two girls. No she was the Dorothy Fry. And he was a
school … he was nearer to my age than any of the boys Darchs, we … so we were pals,
you know, we … he was nine months older than I am. And we used to do a lot together.
We’d stay home sometimes and milk the cows while the other ones went to the Osborne
Park Show. And then they had a show at Wanneroo, they used to hold the show at
Wanneroo. But they used to get home in time to milk the cows themselves for that. But
Peter, he was called, later nicknamed, his name was Cyril at the time, we used to milk the
cows so as they could all go to the show, to Osborne Park. Of course it took a while to
drive there and drive back. And he … his wife and I are still friends and a daughter lives
Nollamara. I see her every Saturday. And so I mean we didn’t see a lot of one another
over the years but I mean we were there all the time, you know, we never sort of got
away from each other.
I:
Mary, when you say milk the cows, I know that you don’t mean in these great big
milking machines of today. Could you explain so that somebody listening …
M:
It was all hands, it was all done by hands those days. And we had about, oh
roughly I’d say about up to 20 cows to milk. Sometimes perhaps less if some were in
calf. But there’d be … they used to have … the milkman come out (clock chimes) … this
is going to strike. Yes, so there’d be about … up to about 20 cows, you know, we’d have
about at least eight cows each to milk.
I:
And what did you do with the milk?
[9:33]
M:
We used to have a separator and used to have to separate it to cool it down. And
then you used to put it in drums and cover it over, make it all … keep it cool ‘til the next
morning when the milkman came along. Well actually he came twice a day because I
used to come home with him from the school at … in the afternoon, so he used to come
out and pick up twice a day. Well how could he? No, only the once. Used to have to keep
it cool, had a little separate room about the square of that, and they separated it out, then
you used to have to put water on it to run through the whatsanames while it cooled the
milk down. Was all done by hand, there was nothing mechanical done those days. Even
the cutting of the food, you had the big round cutters, you know, and you fed the food
through to cut it up for the cows. Was all done by hand. In fact one of the Crisafulli girls
got her fingers cut off with it. Right across. She was feeding it through and the brother
was, you know, winding the wheel around and she pushed it through and pushed it in
through too far and cut all her fingers off. She was a lovely girl too. She used to sew, do a
lot of things with, you know, with her hand like it was. Married. She had five or six
children. Wonderful person. Yes.
I:
Did you ever make butter or cheese?
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M:
Oh yes, yes, they made butter. I used to help them sometimes churn the … used
to … there was a knack in that, you couldn’t do it too fast ‘cause otherwise it’d turn to,
you know, bit curdled. And they had their little machine to do that. They had that inside
the house. But this other was out near the dairy part and it was a little separate room all
by itself. Used to have to keep it spotlessly clean of course, with milk and that. But they’d
have a couple of 10 gallon drums filled just with the milk. Yes.
I:
What do you remember as being your main food for daily meals?
M:
Well I don’t think the food was much different those days because they used to
kill a lot of … we used to have pigs and we’d sometimes kill pigs for food. And then my
father went to market three times a week and he’d bring home meat from the markets.
And … not from the markets but from the shops and butchers. Just the normal way of
living. My mother used to make what they term these days is an Italian sausage from the
pork. We used to kill it and we used to use everything of the pork. It was my job to clean
the gizzards, we used to call them those days, and absolutely clean them to put the
sausage meat through. Nothing was plastic those days, of course not like now you get this
plastic stuff around the sausage. And we used to hang them on the back veranda, dry
them off. We used to have plenty of visitors while we had those there, all the Slav people
from Osborne Park used to come out and visit us. And she was very good at that. And my
dad used to kill the pig of course and then we’d mince up the pig and do all that was
necessary, and use every bit of it. You never wasted anything. All the fry from it and all
the heart and everything. Everything got eaten, nothing was thrown away, only the bones.
And my job was to put the mince through the thing. We had a … it was only a hand
machine as well, nothing as I say was mechanical those days and you put them through
and you twist the thing and then you, you know, put some more through and twist the
sausages. But no, how … living was all off the farm mostly. But because going to market
three times a week, you had access to the butcher shop in town and you … it wasn’t as if
you didn’t get into town if you were out further and weren’t doing gardening ‘cause the
vegetables had to get to market. And it wasn’t any different to any other way of living I
don’t think, as far as food was concerned.
I:
How far away were you from town and …
M:
We were only 12 ½ miles from town. And … but it used to take two hours by
horse and cart to get in there, to get into town. And if we had friends come in, we had
friends from Spearwood one time and I was sent in to meet them. Of course bit of a mix
up. We used to have a trough there opposite the North Perth Hotel, Mr Ballantyne run the
grocery store, and there was a, you know, tie your horses up there if you wanted to. And
we used to put a feed bag on them, tie them up and we’d go into town. I was supposed to
meet these people that day and I was waiting up on the bridge. Of course none of you
would remember, there was a bridge up there and a paper thing, selling papers and books
and what have you where the Barrack Street bridge is. And opposite there there was like
a big billboard and in front of that was this kiosk thing you’d call it, I suppose. Well I sat
there waiting for them there all the day practically, eating bananas. And they got off at
the main station. So anyhow for some reason they thought they’d come up and see if I
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was up the other end. They found me at long last, so and we got on the tram there, the
tram was running from there to the North Perth Hotel those days, and got on the cart and
we set off sail for home. I wasn’t very popular (chuckles).
I:
Were the carts pulled by bullocks or cows or horses?
M:
Oh, no, just horses. Horses, horses. Yes, no, we weren’t in the bullock days. That
was a bit earlier than my time. No, just horses we had. And they were … we used to …
wasn’t a sulky, it was like a masher cart. You could have a seat facing that way and
face … and a seat up the back, used to sit back, at the back, and you got up on this
masher cart thing, you know, what they call it. We never had a sulky. Some of the people
out there had sulkies, but we didn’t. They … we had the masher cart and the wagon to
take the stuff to market. Yes, so …
I:
So you then saw the advent of say the cars in Wanneroo?
M:
Oh, yes. The first old T Ford.
I:
Who owned that?
M:
Well there was a Tapping and there was a Neaves and there was another one, Mr
Leach. I think he had the number one on his vehicle. But there was three or four of them
got the first one. My dad didn’t get a T thing, he got … T Ford. He had the first Chev, a
Chev 4 I think they called it. And then later on he had a Chev 6. But the Chev 4 was the
first one he had but there was about three or four T Fords out there. Mr Leach I think,
from memory, his daughter-in-law, she’s still living out there, they’re … most of them
have gone. I think there’s only one boy left now and there’s a daughter. But they had the
number one on their vehicle. So, but Mr Tapping, he had one, he used to take rushes in
somewhere, I don’t know where he took them. That’s Elsie’s father. He used to take all
these load of rushes in to somebody. I don’t know whether it was to make wickerwork or
what it was for. And Rimmer, the one she married, he used to cart blackboy from out
there and used to take it somewhere every week he’d go past two or three times with a
load of blackboys. And, but he had a bigger vehicle than the T Ford. But no, was quite an
event when the T Fords came in. And of course they had a hotel here at the … what they
call the Seven Mile. It’s where the Big Rock Toyota is, and there was a hotel there. And
the couple that ran that used to have breakfast ready for them every morning. Used to be
a sort of half way mark and they’d have breakfast there then they’d go on to the markets.
I:
When did the hotel disappear and the saw mill come there?
M:
Oh, I wouldn’t know the year it happened but it was quite a while later. But the
saw mill disappeared. It came, oh, I wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t know for sure when that
came. But then of course Toyota took over and they’ve been there quite a while now.
They’ve been there nearly 20 years I think, Toyota has. Yeah, so used to be there on
North Beach Road where we used to go onto North Beach, just up from there. And it
used to be a plank road for quite a way. And then it … yes it was quite a way. It was
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nearly to North Beach Road where the, you know, great big turn off thing is, before you
get to Hamersley Golf Course, was nearly all plank road to there, those days.
I:
Did you ever go swimming?
M:
Oh, yes. Yeah, we were only three miles from the beach. We used to go out to
Mullaloo and camp every year. And we’d be up five o’clock in the morning going
swimming. Yes, we used to love to go to the beach.
I:
Did you camp in tents or …
[19:56]
M:
In tents, in tents, yes. Sleep on the floor. No mattresses or camp stretchers or
anything like that those days. I used to go sometimes with the neighbours and sometimes
my parents went out for a few days. But they didn’t go out as often. The Darchs used to
go out regular every year. And I’d go out with them. We were pretty good friends. But
no, we loved the beach. We used to quite often walk out there. Used to pack the wagon,
you know, and then walk behind the wagon. Was only three miles from there to the
beach.
I:
Do you remember having any pets as a child?
M:
Well all our animals were our pets I suppose. We had … no, we didn’t have dogs
or cats I don’t … oh yes we had one cat. We had a cat, but you know, our horses and
even the cow, she was like a pet but she was a brute of a thing. Every time she calved
she’d cut her udders, you know. She used to jump the fence, of course most of them were
barbed wire fences, and she’d go off and calve and you would have to follow her to find
the calf and she wouldn’t bring it home. And the boy next door, Peter, or Cyril and I
would get on horseback and we’d follow, but if she saw you she wouldn’t go to the calf.
And, but she was a great milker. Oh, she used to give gallons of milk. But she was a brute
of a thing. Jumping fences and then of course you used to have to wash her teats and sort
of, you know, try and get the milk without blood going into the milk. And no, our
animals were our pets, you know, we didn’t go in for pets like the children do.
Sometimes we’d have a bird we’d find, you know, and … but then we’d let it go, we
wouldn’t keep in cages. Something had been hurt or something a bit wrong with it. And
we’d keep it for a while and then we’d let it go. We didn’t have time for pets.
I:
Do you remember any of the men that went away to the Second World War?
M:
Well, from out there, there were the Cockman boys, two didn’t come back. Their
seven boys went. They had 14 children, seven boys and seven girls. I believe the seven
boys went but of course I was only six when the war finished. I was born when war
started. So I mean that part of it, was only what you heard them say later and there was
others from out that way that had gone and come back. Two of the boys never returned
and the mother would never accept it I believe. She always thought that they would come
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back some day, or they were prisoners of war over there, which could have been the case,
I don’t know. But the other five came back. But they were the only ones because they
were the closest to us. But there were others that went away. But they were the only ones
because they lived not very far from us. But I don’t know whether Mr Pearsall ever went.
I think I remember him wearing a little badge, but whether he had been to the war or not,
I wouldn’t be sure of that. Or any of the Duffys.
I:
Did you …
M:
Look, I can’t believe this. Look … (sound file cut).
[23:33]
E0034 Track 1
I:
Do you remember doing much reading and …
M:
Oh, yes. Yes, I read a lot. But unfortunately not anything sensible, you know,
mostly mystery books and cowboy books those days. And we didn’t have any lighting
and I was forbidden to read. And of course with our home not being properly plastered,
the opening, you could see through it and my mother would know when I had the candle
on. So I used to have to hold a book up like … so as to hide the candle going up to the
vent and read, you know, as long as I could. I used to borrow books from next door and
get … I used to read a lot, but pity I hadn’t read something sensible, you know, just these
mystery books and cowboy books and what have you. I did keep my schooling up a bit as
much as I could, you know, on your own. I tried to improve that but of course it’s very
hard to do when you haven’t got anyone to help you. But I used to do a lot of reading.
I:
What about playing cards or other activities like …
M:
No, no, we … the grown-ups used to play. We had workmen coming from across
the lake. They were cutting down timber and they used to come over perhaps one or two
nights a week for a bit of company and they’d play cards with my dad and my mum
didn’t play unless they needed an extra hand. And sometimes I’d fill in if they needed an
extra hand. But it wasn’t my thing those days. I wasn’t very interested in cards. And I
used to … and I was very hard to get on with because I was brought up as an Aussie and
listening to these Slav people talking was a strange sort of language to me. In fact I could
understand them but I couldn’t talk it very well those days. But I was very grateful for the
fact that they made me learn to talk because they said they wouldn’t talk to me unless I
spoke back to them in Slav, which helped me when I went overseas and went to Europe.
And the sort time I was at school, at St Brigid’s, I’d started to learn German and French.
And I knew a little bit of French, not such a lot of German, ‘cause I actually wasn’t very
interested in that. But it came in handy when we were overseas because our driver was
French and our guide was from Innsbruck. And wasn’t very handy. One time we were on
the top of a very high mountain, look out in Innsbruck. We had no brakes. I understood,
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nobody else understood what the driver said to the guide who came down that hill in low
gear and the handbrake on.
I:
That would have been quite an experience for you.
M:
Yes, but …
I:
When …
M:
… that’s the extent of my languages. But I was very happy that I was taught Slav.
And everybody over in Yugoslavia commented on the fact that I spoke so well. But I
thought I had a little bit … of course there are different dialects. You know, it’s like
different places you come from in England, they’ve got different dialects. And over there
they have like I’ve got a bit of everything, I must have, you know. But they said, the
relations and other people that I spoke to over there said that I spoke the language very
well. Well my brothers, you see, they were very disappointed, they can understand but
they can’t talk it properly. And the one down at … from Esperance that was coming up
here, he … first thing he was going to do, oh he was so happy about coming to Perth.
First thing he was going to do, he was going to join the club, the WA Yugoslav Club, and
then he was going to learn to speak Slav. And they had everything packed ready to come
up, and he dropped dead.
I:
Oh, what a shame.
M:
Oh, that was so sad. And he was … we went over there to a dinner, something
special was on. I think they were having a dinner for something. I don’t know what it
was, but we went over to … of course he was the there and … and he was that thrilled
with everything and meeting old friends, ‘cause he was in a band when he was a teenager,
my brother is still in the band, and course with him being away and having a family and
that, he couldn’t keep it up. But he met some of the chaps that were in the band with him,
and then of course he realised he couldn’t speak the language. They thought he could talk
it, they revert back to their own language no matter how long they’ve been here. A lot of
them … most of them have been born here but they’ve had parents that have made them
learn the language and they mixed more with it. But I was out Wanneroo, we were the
first Yugoslav family to go to Wanneroo. And course I was a … I was an Aussie wasn’t I.
I was Australian, I’m a real pig too at times, in my own mind now when I look back. I
didn’t have anything to do with Slav people. So that when these woodmen came out there
or wood choppers, I wasn’t very fussed, I’d go to bed, you know, unless I had to help get
something for them to eat. Mum might have needed a hand or something. But they did
make me learn the language, so for that I was very grateful really years later. But that …
no, cards were never my thing.
I:
Now when you went to school and did your learning, did you write with pen and
paper as they did today?
M:
No. We had …
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I:
What did you use?
M:
… ink. We had ink and nibs on pens, and pencils. There was no biros or anything
like that those days. It was just pen and … with a nib on the end of it, and ink. You had to
have a bottle of ink. You had ink stands in your desk, you know, to put the ink into. Yes,
but …
I:
What did the teacher use?
M:
Well he had to use the same, yeah, unless he had … I wouldn’t know unless he
had a pencil, you know, that you wound up. I wouldn’t know, I can’t remember that,
about those little things. But he used to have an ink stand on his desk too, so he must
have used ink quite a bit. I don’t know whether they had pencils those days that, you
know, wound up and down.
I:
Do you ever remember being strapped for anything?
M:
Oh yes, I got the cane on the hands, you know, a couple of times. But I suppose
we deserved it. Wouldn’t have got it otherwise.
I:
Do you think it did you any harm?
M:
No. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think they should bring it back, myself,
well and truly. Yeah. Some of these children, and especially this bizzo about them being
able to report their parents, I’d like to … oh. I think that’s disgusting. A person … I mean
I don’t believe in child abuse but I believe a bit of a strapping now and again doesn’t do
any harm. I don’t … you know, even with a hand across the seat’s okay but I … I don’t
believe people hitting anyone across the head, that’s one thing that I wouldn’t … and a
lot of course was done those days, you know, you’d hall off and hit them. Well I don’t
believe even in a milder way hitting anyone on the head. But a strapping now and again
wouldn’t do anybody any harm. Our teacher had a cane that he did us with. He, you
know, hit us on the hand if we did something wrong.
I:
Were boys treated differently to girls?
M:
No I don’t think so. They used to get the cane too and … if they did anything
wrong. But we really didn’t have time those … you know, to get into trouble. We used to
be keen to have a game of something and you know, we’d spend our time playing
rounders, we didn’t get into much mischief. And I mean you didn’t get this bizzo of
throwing papers or giving cheek in class. If you were in class you had to be quiet those
days, you … it wasn’t for anything like that that you got into trouble. It would have to be
something a bit on the serious side. But, no …
I:
Do you feel that your time in a place like Wanneroo was good for you rather than
in a bigger city? Or how is your feeling on that?
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[9:17]
M:
Well, if it hadn’t been for the Depression, I think we could … might have been
still out there, but things were tough, you know, begin to get very tough and my dad had
two lots of partners out there with him, ‘cause the property was quite big for one person.
And the first one went back to Yugoslavia with his six children and wife. And the second
one, he decided to go to Osborne Park and farm in Osborne Park. So that it left him on
his own and with a sort of debt that left him with it at an awkward time, ‘cause he had to
pay off the money that he had borrowed to buy the property out there ‘cause he came
down from the ‘fields but he didn’t come down with very much. And there was a
boarding house in Fremantle that they stayed at and my mum used to help him do the
cooking which probably alleviated any expense. But this man lent him the money to buy
the farm with. And of course the person they’d bought it … well that’s another story, I
wouldn’t go into that, he sold it and then he wanted it back. He fired at my father going to
market one day, fired a gun at him and there was all sorts of … I was with him that day
too. Because dad and I became very good friends. I was the eldest and I should have been
a boy, but I wasn’t. But dad and I became very good friends. And then when the boy
came along, my mother ruined him and my dad didn’t approve of it so he and I became
better friends again. So I happened to be with him that day. But anyhow that man was
taken to task over it, you know, and that fizzled out. I don’t know what happened, but he
did go back to Italy. He was an Italian that they bought the property off. And for some
reason he wanted it back again. He was sorry he sold it, you know. But anyway that’s
neither here nor there. But that’s just a little incident that went on. And … but he had
some ups and downs, but I don’t think we’d have ever left out there if it hadn’t have been
for the fact that things were tough. And of course my mum thought that, you know, she
could run a boarding house, ‘cause a lot of single men came out and having nowhere to
stay they were always wanting to stay with people of their own, you know, country. And
a couple of boarding houses were quite successful. So we thought we’d do better at that,
but of course then things got so bad they couldn’t get a job and we were … my mother
was feeding them and you know, buying food and stuff and getting into debt because of
them. They weren’t paying their board. So it didn’t, you know, work out any better really.
Everybody was feeling the pinch at that particular time.
I:
Mary, what sort of clothing did you wear or did your mum wear?
M:
Well, you didn’t have much choice. Anything you could slap up. Well I had a bit
of a … bit better for school, you know, but you had practically nothing different,
everything was just straight up and down really, mum used to make it. She was a good
crocheter and she could sew. She made me a uniform when I was little. They had
something special on up at Boulder to do with the nationality, you know, and I had the
uniform. She made that for me. But out there, you know, for something straight up and
down like a shift, that’s about all you’d wear.
I:
Did you ever wear trousers?
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M:
Yeah, when I was driving the truck I used to pinch my … an old pair of my
father’s trousers. It was more convenient than a dress for driving. Used to have to put a
belt around to keep ‘em up. But that was the only time and I’ve never really worn them
since. Bought some to go to New Zealand, but I didn’t like ‘em, I don’t like myself in
trousers. Don’t wear slacks or anything. But I did wear his for driving.
I:
Do you remember it being very hot or very cold?
M:
Yes, yes, used to get frost on the whatsaname. And it was colder out Wanneroo in
the wintertime than it is in New Zealand where the lake was frosted over when we were
over there and everybody was complaining about the cold. I said you don’t know what
cold is. I said when we were at Wanneroo, I said, it was colder than this. Oh all the grass
used to be frosted. And I said I don’t feel this is cold. I was only getting around in a twin
suit. I took a card … a parquet but I never wore it. I never felt it over there. I think the
cold in Wanneroo was worse than over there in New Zealand. Well you know New
Zealand is noted for its coldness.
I:
Did you ever remember storms that sort of made … lightning storms or storms
that may have affected the people fishing off the coast or anything like that happen?
M:
Not really. They didn’t have them that severe down around this coast. They had
storms and of course we had some bad lightning and thunderstorms. But nothing serious.
There was none of this that anything was struck by lightning as far as we heard. We
didn’t … we’d have heard of it because it’s such a small thing. Everybody knew
everybody and news carries. But no, there was a couple of wrecks up the coast but that …
whether that was caused through storms or what I don’t know. But … or whether they
just run onto something. They are still there, or they were there. My brother was helping
to get some of the whatsanames off them, you know, to put in … they put them in the
museum. Or he was protecting them, stopping the looters from coming in once they
found them. And there were things there of value. And while he was patrolling the coast,
he had from Lancelin right down the coast through Wanneroo to patrol, when he was in
the police force, and he was looking after it. But what caused those wrecks I don’t know.
I:
Mary, is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you’d really like to tell us
about on the tape?
M:
Well, not really. I think that covers most of it. I did … I think I remember last
time I mentioned a young English lass that was … her husband was working on the
roads, and she had a young baby. She went and worked for Mrs Lindsay, Honourable Mrs
Lindsay, or the Honourable Mrs Lindsay. She was a marvellous cook. She could make,
you know, anything taste like … even tinned stuff she could make taste like fresh meat
and stuff. But I think her husband interfered. They eventually I believe separated later.
That was a sort of highlight ‘cause she was only a little bit older than I was when they
were camped outside our place there and of course we took her under our wing while
they were there, then when the camp shifted, we … and then when she went up to
Lancelin … actually I drove her up there. One of the men that was helping, he’d bought a
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new vehicle and he didn’t want to drive the bush track those days to Lancelin, ah, to
Yanchep Beach, and where she had a summer place she called it. She used to come out in
the English winter and stay in Australia. But it was all pretty rough and ready for a person
of her, you know, well I should say she must have been well off. Her husband was …
he’d distinguished himself during the war over there. And he was … but he never came
out. She used to come out on her own. He died I think, and they used to call her Lady
Lindsay, but she wasn’t Lady, she was Honourable Mrs Lindsay. And I drove … he said
would I drive the vehicle out. He wasn’t game enough to go through the bush track. So I
took her out there but I think her husband interfered and anyhow she separated and went
into Perth somewhere and worked. And I heard years later that she’d found something
very expensive, what it was I don’t know, but the … she returned it of course to the
person concerned and he told her that he’d give her, you know, anything she wanted.
What did she want? And she said oh I’d … you couldn’t give me what I want. And he
said well just try me. And she said I’d like to go back to England. And I believe he paid
her fare back to England, her and her little boy. He would have been a bit older of course
by then. But they went back to England. Whatever happened to her husband I’d never
know, but he was just a little upstart. But she was a very nice person. So that is the only
other highlight of it, you know, ‘cause lots of things happen. But I don’t think anybody
would be that interested in them.
[19:46]
Like this girl, one of the Leach’s boys, he … he had a motorbike. Of course I was, you
know, had to try everything. And so I rode a motor … I could ride a motorbike, I could
ride a horse. I could drive any vehicle at that time, I don’t know about now. Some of
these computerised looking things, I don’t know whether I’d be able to drive one of
those. Everybody says why don’t you buy a new car? I said my baby will do me. She’s 23
years old which is good enough for me to get from A to Z. And another friend we had, he
had a motorbike. He came to our place when we were living in town, and of course I …
no licenses or anything you know. So they asked me something at the Historical Society
and I said oh I couldn’t answer that, I said I’ve got a superintendant of a son here for
policemen, and an ex-policeman for a brother, I said I couldn’t tell you that. I said I’d get
put in jail. Didn’t have a license until I was about 40. So I mean, you know, different
things that were perhaps interesting to me but they wouldn’t be interesting to anybody
else I don’t think.
I:
Well Mary I’d like to thank you for a very, very good interview.
M:
Oh, well I’m glad I could remember some.
(Sound file cut)
M:
… I felt this morning, you know. I felt like …
[21:22]
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E0034 Track 2
I:
Mary, I was going to ask you a little bit about your parents. Would you like to
start with your mother first?
M:
Well my mother came from a place called Bol, B-o-l, spelt. And she was an only
child, and her parents were separated and her father was a fisherman, a professional
fisherman, he had his own boat. And he was very seldom at home so she was sort of
fostered from one relative to another. And at the age of 18 she decided she’d like to come
to a cousin that she had here in Australia, in West Australia in Kalgoorlie, and she came
out here and after a while she met someone that she knew from home but from the other
side of the island, from a (clock chimes) … oh. And he had gone to New Zealand with a
relation but they didn’t like it. So he came to Kalgoorlie and they met up again there. And
the place he came from was the other side of the island which was called Brač, B-r-a-č,
with a tick on the end and you pronounce it Brarch. And after 12 months they got married
but her father wasn’t … didn’t approve when he heard of who she was going to marry
and he came out here to stop the wedding.
I:
Oh, really?
M:
And course he was comfortably placed to be … you know, having his own boat,
for those days. And when he saw that he couldn’t stop her from marrying him, he went
home and he didn’t even wait for the wedding. Or went back …
I:
What was she … what was your mother’s maiden name?
M:
My mother’s name was Ivalic …
I:
Right.
M:
… her maiden name. And so they stayed up at the gold mines for about five years,
five or six years. I was the only child they had for about five years and anyhow, after a
while they had a boy, my brother, first brother was born when I was about five and half,
five and three months or something. And then they decided to come down to Perth. And
they stayed at Fremantle for about three months with a gentleman that … a Yugoslav
chap that was running a boarding house, just facing the ocean there. I don’t know what
the … that street is called, right on the ocean part. There was a lot of houses. Some
Parade I think it was called. Anyhow she helped out with the gentleman and he helped
them to get the farm at Wanneroo. And a relative, a cousin of my father’s went in with
him. But he wasn’t very happy out there. And after they’d been out there a short time the
man that sold them the property for some reason wanted it back again and got very
annoyed about, you know, having sold it and he used to make a proper nuisance of
himself. In fact one morning going to market, and I was with my dad at the time, so I
know it for a fact that it happened, he fired shots at my father. But we used to get half
way in and the men those days would have a rest before they went on to the markets in
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Perth. So it happened while he was resting and the wagon sort of shielded him, otherwise
if he’d have perhaps been sitting up driving, you don’t know what might have happened
or he might have only did it to frighten him, I don’t know, but the shots were definitely
fired. But … and so after not very short time, his cousin decided he’d get a place of his
own. So he went to Osborne Park and he started his own garden at Osborne Park. And
my father carried on there at Wanneroo. But they were the first Yugoslav people that
settled in Wanneroo. There were Italian people, in fact a Mr Crisafulli who his
descendants are still there, he and his wife came out on the same boat as my mother.
They travelled on the same boat. I don’t … not sure of where they left from but they
didn’t leave from Yugoslavia. I think they had to go to Naples to catch a boat to come to
Australia. But my mother used to talk a lot about her home town, but my dad never did.
And there of course it was very hard for them. They had a terrible struggle and there was
nothing at Wanneroo as most people in those days knew, there was no medical help, there
was no nothing. And my mother was often called on to see to women that were having
babies. In fact she delivered two babies in Wanneroo, and ‘til they could get proper
medical attention. And herself with her third child didn’t make it to the doctor’s or the
hospital. She … it was inevitable that the baby was going to be born at Dog Swamp and
my dad went into the nearest house for help. And my mother got out of the masher cart
and as she stepped down, the baby was born. And when the lady came out that was going
to help and she picked up … she didn’t know what it was, so when she saw it was a baby
she dropped it again with fright. But anyhow he survived it and today he lives at
Wanneroo himself in Kingsway. But it was a very, very difficult time for them those
days. And doctors didn’t come out ‘til very much later, very much later. And nothing
in … as far as I could tell, there are medical centres out there now but there was nothing
out there at the time.
I:
What happened if there was an emergency like an accident or …
M:
Well you had to do the best you could. Everybody had to try and help out. We had
quite a few emergencies. My brother, he was … he walked through hot ashes and of
course they had to pick him up and take him to town. Well that was a little bit later and
by then there were vehicles. But in the old masher carts you had to do it yourself, you
know, a horse and cart. And I trod on a nail one time and these days you’d have to be
rushed to the doctor, have tetanus needles and what have you. All they did to mine, which
was quite a big … it was a floor board off the veranda upside down, all they did was pour
some kerosene on it and bob was your uncle and that was it. It’s all the medical help you
got those days. And cuts, you had to do to themself, I had several bad cuts myself. And
we just wrapped them up and they healed. But other, in sicknesses and that, well people
had to get to the doctors as best they could, which was a couple of hours run from out that
way those days. When the trucks and that came in it was a lot easier for some people. But
it was not everybody that could get one right away. A lot of people got one as they came
in, the old T Fords and then the Chev 4, and then of course the different types of cars
later as time went on. But that’s all there was out there at the time.
I:
Was there anyone with any medical knowledge that you would turn to …
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M:
No, only the … oh only the older ladies, lady next door to us, a Mrs Darch,
although she lost her husband, he was killed in an accident. He fell off the wagon. And
there was a write up in their local paper about the Darchs, did you notice that with that
missionary? And that was theirs … her … his father. She was a Stubberfield, they came
from North Beach, the Stubberfields, lived out there. There was a big family of them.
And she came from out there. But the Darchs, and one of the Darchs married Mr Perry
who Perry Lakes belonged to. And he had a lot of property out Mullaloo way also. She
was a very nice person, his wife.
I:
Do you remember that area between … you mentioned the Fry property which is
at the bottom of Kingsway. If you come back towards Balcatta Hotel, do you remember
who was in the properties along that area, you know, going back towards Balcatta?
M:
Well there weren’t very many. There was only the Gibbs there and there is one of
the Gibbs still there I think. He’s the nearest to it. In fact he’s the nearest house to it now,
Ernie Gibbs. And then there was the Duffy family. There was about 10 or 14 children in
their family. That was where Waldocks (sic) were, they had one of those … well Gibbs
was the same, those historical type of homes. I think they got photos of them up in the
Agricultural Hall up there, they’ve got some photos of them. And then there was over the
road there was Pikes. They had a chicken farm like poultry farm.
I:
That would have been a bit different than poultry farms you know …
[9:44]
M:
Oh yes, oh yes, only an ordinary one, you know. They used to keep them for eggs
and sell them. We used to go quite often on a Sunday for Sunday dinner and get ones
when I said I used to borrow the horse from next door. And then there was Parins. They
came out later in the ‘20s. I forget what year Rose said they came out, but it was later in
the ‘20s. And they made a vineyard there. At the time they were just the two of them,
then they brought their wives out and they built another house. But apart from that, there
was no homes ‘til … more houses until nearly … ‘til the Seven Mile, not on the roadway,
not close to the roadway, there were some in what goes up … what’s the … no, I don’t
think there was from there on. Might have been one or two closer to the Seven Mile
Hotel, little old homes.
I:
That’s the Balcatta Hotel, the Seven Mile, yeah.
M:
Yeah, yeah, Balcatta Road there, well what is the Balcatta Road. But apart from
that there was no others there. There was just the Pikes over the road and of course
Steeles and those weren’t there at the time, they came a bit later. Mr Steele came there
and he used to take us to school in the wagon. And that would have been the only one
that side within the ‘20s. But over this side was … they’re very old homes, Gibbs and
Duffy’s homes were one of the first ones out there I should imagine by the build of them.
Little stone places. Yes, so that would have been about all and from there towards our
place, I don’t think there was any homes. Oh, Jones’ home was there, that’s right, Jones,
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they were down off the road a little bit. And then Chokolich’s came, they came around
about the ‘30s I think. I think I heard father Chokolich say around about ’32, I’m not sure
when they came out. And they built in between that and our place. And of course there
was another Gibbs but they were down off the road a little and there was Duffy’s over the
water and then there was the Darchs down … they were down off the road as well, they
were our next door neighbours at that time. And then from there on along the road there
was no other homes. There was Cockman’s, Cecil Cockman, he was down off the road,
you couldn’t see his house, that’s just past Pearsall’s, what used to be Pearsall’s garage,
Sariti’s garage now. And then there was the Crisafullis, they were down off the road also.
And over the road there was nothing those days. No homes at all. And the rest of them,
there was only one … two houses that you could see from the road. There was Tappings,
well Tappings just past the school, past Pinjar Road, and then there was Chitty’s. He was
… he was manager of the cattle place. Isn’t that awful, my son mentions it every week
and I still can’t remember it. He used to have cattle and Mr Chitty used to look after them
for him out that way. His house you could see from the road as well. But the others, there
was an Ashby and they were in the bush off the road further up. And there was one down
opposite the school where one of the Cockmans went, Wes Cockman I think and but that
wouldn’t have been at that time, it was a bit later because they got married after we were
out there, so they weren’t there really when we first went out. But that would have been
all of … about all the homes that were there, that you could see.
I:
You’ve got a good memory.
M:
Well, yes, I’m afraid I have but I wish I had good legs (chuckles).
I:
And what … did you mix with the other Yugoslav families that came into the
area? Did your parents …
M:
Well Rose, you see when Rose Parin came to school, she was older. She’s …
she’s actually a year older than I am I think she said. She’s had her 80th birthday. And
when she came to school, you see, she couldn’t speak at all. And the teacher put her …
‘cause I was the only other Yugoslav there and I felt so sorry for her. But I at that time as
I told you I couldn’t speak the language very well until these men, the woodcutters came
out there and they made me speak it. She came then, so I said to the teacher one day, I
could help her, you know. And so he sat her next to me and I used to explain to her as
best I could in Slav what was going on. And she soon picked it up of course, you know,
children do. They pick it up much quicker than grownups. But no, that was about the only
Yugoslav family that was there that … and they were a fair way away for us those days.
I:
Did the other children ever tease you because … oh well you were born here,
but …
M:
Well they did the others, you know, there they … but for some reason they didn’t
me, so but I used to take their sides, I used … ‘cause oh one day they were calling them
names and they were getting upset about it. And so I went down with them. They said oh
we’re not calling you that, you know, we’re not saying it to you. But I said I am the same
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as them, although Rose came out, she was born in Yugoslavia, she wasn’t born here. And
I said (clock chimes) so I mean and what you say to them, I said, you might as well be
saying to me. So they stopped teasing them after that, they didn’t worry. And they used to
have a go at all of them, you know, they did for years after that. It dies off now,
everybody’s a ethnic or they’re new Australians but they’re not dagos and they’re not
wogs and they’re not … what else did they used to call them? Oh, I just can’t remember
what the others … dings or wogs? Something like that, you know. But no, I always got
on very well with both sides, but you know, I used to hate to see anybody get abused like
that, so I used to take their side, and after a while it just died off, they didn’t worry about
it and they got used to them being there.
I:
Did your parents ever encounter any of that?
M:
No, not really. My father was a very liked person. He got on with anybody.
Although he wasn’t a well educated person because there was 10 in their family, and the
place he came from I’ve seen it. I don’t know how they ever survived there, I don’t know.
And of course they had some of the old building there. My uncle, the one that’s a
physiotherapist, he brought his brother out here years later, and he became quite famous.
He was Chris Martinovich, the physiotherapist. Not … it is physio isn’t it? Yes.
Chiropractor, chiropractor. And when I went back … he sent the money over to have the
place modernised but they still had some of the old … oh, talk about the prisons, the
prisons were a lounge room compared to what these little rooms were. I don’t know how
they ever lived in it. But they had modernised and had upstairs rooms he asked them to
build them. I think the roof collapsed one winter. The snow was that heavy that the roof
collapsed and he sent them over money to have it all fixed up. And but I don’t know how
they ever survived to live like that.
I:
Your father was involved with the football team up there was he?
M:
Yes, he was playing football at Wanneroo, yes, he was their fullback because he
was a big man. There’s a photo of him up in the Wanneroo football club, of all of them,
and he’s the one on the side without his waistcoat on. They couldn’t get one big enough
for him. And I think there was another one, Mr Rimmers there, the old Mr Rimmer. And
the others, the ones that they had jumpers for, could fit, but they were on the side. He had
a white shirt on and he was a full back for them. But it was great days. We used to go and
watch them. Next door, Ruby Darch and I used to go along and watch them ‘cause we
were the closest to being of age. Her brother was the closest, the one that just died
recently. He was only nine months old then, but being a boy of course he … we were
cobbers, you know, we were friends. But he was like a big brother to me because me
being the eldest did … used to appreciate the fact that I had a sort of bigger brother
figure. And, but Rube and I, she was a little older than I was, but we were fairly good
friends and we used to go everywhere together and when she’d go … they’d go dancing,
of course they didn’t want to take her because she was younger than them so I used to tag
along to be with her, sort of partner with her and we’d go to these different places. But,
and no, we used to go and watch the football.
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[19:45]
I:
Where did they play?
M:
Well they played down at Perry’s paddock mostly …
I:
Did they?
M:
… down there. They used to play football, yes. And I don’t know whether they
played up where the showgrounds is, but that came I think a bit later, they organised that.
I remember going to one of the shows up there while we were still out there, but I don’t
remember them playing football up there, I only remember them playing football at
Perry’s Paddock there.
I:
You used to socialise after the games?
M:
Oh well there wasn’t anywhere to socialise really. They had no, you know, rooms
or anything where they could have anything. Everybody sort of went home, mostly,
unless the men, you know, might have had a few drinks and that, I don’t know, but of
course we wouldn’t hang around. We’d go home ‘cause we only had to go through the
paddock there and through the swamp, which had a log across it. We’d cross over the log
and we’d just walk up to our place there, we were quite close to Perry’s Paddock, as the
crow flies. And that’s where I cut my leg once. We had visitors from Fremantle and the
wife saw the lilies that were growing in the swamp and of course she wanted some. And I
didn’t notice the fence come down and I jumped off the log and jumped across this
barbed wire fence and ripped my leg. I’ve still got the scar to show for it, because she
wanted these bloomin’ lilies. I don’t know what she was going to do with them, but she
must have taken them home. We used to get a lot of visitors. My … as I say, my dad was
very popular with everybody. And he used to always have someone coming out to see
him. A lot of businessmen used to come out that way, people from sort of Skipper
Baileys when the vehicles come in, you know, promoting their, you know, trucks, cars,
whatever. And of course us being up close to the road, would be the first stop sort of
thing. And that’s how the nuns came to stop at our place because we were on the road.
And even people from papers, later on in life we met up with a couple and their daughter
was learning dancing with my youngest girl, and we invited them to the eldest girl’s
wedding. We turned out, when he saw my mother, he recognised me, said I used to come
out to your place and quite often and then we’d sometimes go out to the beaches. And
they’d have, must have been sort of social thing out there because these business men had
come out there and they must have done something, you know, they must have had
something to drink or something to eat, I don’t know. Us as kids, we didn’t worry
because all we thought about was swimming. But we used to have a lot of visitors drop
into our place.
I:
Did you have travelling salesmen, you know, did they come out selling goods?
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M:
Yes, well that’s what I mean, you see, these Skipper Bailey’s men, and I don’t
know what Mr Walton was but he worked for a paper, but what his … why he came out
there, Daily News I think he worked for. But they used to all sort of drop in at our place.
And we had a lot of visitors like that. And of course my dad got very popular with a lot of
people. As I say, he didn’t have a chance to have much of an education, but he … in other
ways he was very clever in some things, yes. So …
I:
I wondered if anyone delivered … did anyone come out from Perth delivering
food stuffs or anything like that?
M:
No, no. No, well there wasn’t any need really because, as I say, they used to have
to go to market three times a week. But no, there was nothing like that. Oh, the only
thing, a lot of … but I think they were pretty shady, chaps used to come off boats with
bales of material and try and sell you suit lengths, things like that well you occasionally
got them. But I don’t think anybody bought them because you couldn’t afford them
anyway, really, and because once they bought the material they have to pay to have them
made up. So they never ever bothered but they … I remember you know, a few times
people like that came out that way. But that’s about the only thing that they tried to sell.
The others were … the machine man came out, the Singer machine man, he came out.
And strangely enough when we come to live in to town we lived in the same street as
him. And at the moment his grandson does a lot of odd jobs for me. A small world it is.
I:
It is, yes.
M:
And when I told him I knew his grandfather, he got quite a shock. And he … I
knew his mother also ‘cause they lived up the street from us. But no, but Wanneroo was a
very, very isolated place. Only 12 miles up to about 20 miles from Perth at the most
where people were gardening. And it was absolutely nothing there to help them. No
shops, not a chemist or anything like that. Nothing.
I:
Did your mother like life out there?
M:
Well I don’t know whether she liked it, she accepted it. It was nothing like the life
at home. I visited where she came from when we went to Europe and I could understand
why she always talked about it. It’s a very pretty place and it’s a very, very popular
tourist place at the moment. It’s gone ahead, they’ve built big hotels there and the
beaches are always full of visitors. It’s a very pretty place. But … it’s on the ocean,
where my dad comes from, they haven’t got the ocean, they’ve got to come other side of
the island to get to the ocean. But she really loved it there but as I say, she was fostered
out to relatives and she didn’t have a very good life, the father not being there all the
time. But I don’t think she had much better when she came out here. She had a very, very
hard life. She never got anything out of life, for what she’s put into it, I don’t think
anyway. And of course she got married so soon after she came out, within 12 months.
Perhaps if she’d hadn’t met him so soon after having known him, it might have been
different. But she made the best of life. She had a … I wouldn’t like to have gone through
what she went through and not have anything to show for it.
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I:
She had wonderful children.
M:
Well, yes, the eldest son, like that came after me, he was very good to her. But
unfortunately our young brother, he was hurt in an accident after he came back from
Korea and he had some brain damage. And while he was on medication he’s not too bad,
but it changed him completely. He used to be fantastic to her also. And the one that was
in the police force, he didn’t leave home ‘til he was nearly 40 when he got married. He
had one unfortunate incident in between, he’d married a girl that was a bit unstable and
they got divorced. And my mum had my sister, I’ve got a sister that’s got a roof missing
in her mouth and she had a lot of trouble with her. And the other sister, of course she’s
okay. I think I’m okay, I don’t know, I sometimes wonder.
I:
Gosh.
M:
But my … you know, they were fairly good to her although the brother, he … his
wife used to go to work and they had six children. Used to palm them onto my mother
and of course she seemed to be looking after children all her life. And that’s when I say
she didn’t have a chance to get anything out of life. But she always seemed to be working
and working for, you know, somebody else. But …
I:
What about your father? Was your father in the First World War?
M:
No, no, no, they … they wanted him to sort of … he wasn’t in camped, most of
the Yugoslavs were put into a camp, well all foreigners probably, but he wasn’t. That’s
what I say, he was very popular, I mean he … I don’t know whether he could wriggle his
way out of everything, but they wanted him to be a sort of police officer or a sort of a,
what would you call them, in between, but he wouldn’t do that. He said no, no, he said he
couldn’t do that, you know. And so they … a lot of them went into camp, but he didn’t,
he didn’t have to go into camp. And they wouldn’t take him to war of course, being a
Yugoslav. And, but he was only up on the mines for about five years, five or six years,
and then as I say we finished up in Wanneroo. Yes, so …
[29:24]
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