TRANSCRIPT - JEWISH CADETS AT THE CITADEL
Panelists: BERNARD WARSHAW; BERNARD SOLOMON; LES BERGEN; STEVE
JOSIAS; ALAN REYNER; JONATHAN ROSEN
Moderator: JOELLE NEULANDER
Panel Date: September 29, 2013
Location: Charleston, South Carolina
Length: 84 minutes
MARTIN PERLMUTTER: I’m Marty Perlmutter, Director of the Yaschik/Arnold
Jewish Studies Program at the College of Charleston. Just some organizational remarks,
if you have a cell phone, can you take a moment and perhaps turn it off? We had a brunch
over at Jewish Studies before this, and I’d like to thank the volunteers who made that
happen. Those of you who are here for the first time, whenever there’s a Sunday morning
event, it’s called a brunch for a reason, and we try to treat people who come by well. And
that happens because of the volunteers, so I’d like to thank Thelma Becker
[unintelligible], Monty Schwartz for making it happen.
Today is a different format. Typically, we have someone speaking and then
there’s a discussion with a [unintelligible] immediately afterwards. Today, we will not
have that subsequent discussion. That’ll continue next week. So, here’s the introduction.
As the director of academic program with as much going on as we do, I’m inclined to
kvell, but I’ll do my best to be brief. That’s not what was a virtue of Jewish Studies
events.
Jewish Studies has started the academic year stronger than ever with a vibrant
academic program offering more than a dozen classes to Jewish Studies majors, minors,
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students, seniors. Many students audit our programs. This year we welcome two new
professors, Oren Segal and David Slucki, to our academic faculty. And we have a new
staff member, Jodie Singer, in Jewish Student Life.
It’s a good opportunity to mention and praise Marsha Alterman, our Jewish
Student Life advisor. Is Marsha here? Marsha, will you stand up? For the past six years,
Marsha has advised and provided religious, cultural, social, feeding, programming for
Jewish cadets at The Citadel. Just as establishing Jewish Student Life program at the
college was Jewish Studies’ own initiative, so Jewish Studies at the College of Charleston
is really committed to providing Jewish opportunities for Citadel cadets, have done so for
a number of years, and it really is a commitment that we hope to continue.
The next few weeks are packed with Jewish Studies programming. Next week,
October 6th , we will be back in Arnold Hall. We’ll be joined by Professor Ted Merwin of
Dickinson College, who’s an expert on Jewish delis in America. Actually, we will have
Jewish rye bread from New York shipped down for that event.
And for those of you who don’t know it, there is a deli that opened up in
Summerville, the Charleston Bakery. It’s not a kosher deli, but it’s very kosher-style.
They’re the ones who are going to supply the rye bread. Good rye bread is almost as good
as a good bagel. The Sunday after that, October 13 th , two weeks from today, we’re
hosting Israeli Consul General Opher Aviran, a friend of the college, who will address
ongoing events in Israel and their foreign policy implications. For more community
programming, refer to our latest newsletter. And we’re actually also on the internet. Just
go online.
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I’d like to begin this morning’s event by honoring a Citadel alumnus who
certainly would have been a worthy and proud panelist this morning. Maurice Fox,
Citadel Class of 1953, was a man truly dedicated to his alma mater and to his beloved
Jewish community and Charleston community. Maurice died last month. A decorated
scholar at The Citadel, Maurice was a member of the Summerall Guard, commanded the
Air Force battalion, achieved the rank of lieutenant colonel, and served as the chair of the
Round Table. He also served in the Korean War.
The longtime president and leader of his family’s Fox Music House, Maurice was
almost as invested in the local and national music industry as he was in his true passions,
the Charleston Jewish community, where he served too many positions to be named, all
the while maintaining the highest moral and ethical standards, a true tribute to his Citadel
training. He was truly a mensch. He’s dearly missed.
Paul Wurtzel, Arnold Triskowski, and Maurice were regulars as senior auditors of
Jewish Studies classes for many years. Please join me in observing a moment of silence
for our friend Maurice Fox. His memory is already a blessing.
This morning’s panel is a first of its kind. The College of Charleston and The
Citadel have enjoyed many years of friendship and collaboration, and the Jewish
community of Charleston has historically been incredibly welcoming to students from
both downtown campuses. Local oral historians and archivists have spent many hours
compiling the memories and experiences of Jewish cadets, including many of our
panelists. But never before have a group of Jewish cadets come together to share together
their memories in a public forum such as this.
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Our panelists span more than seven decades. All have deep commitments to their
alma mater. Thank you to our panel for sharing their time and their memories, and it’s
now a distinct pleasure to welcome a personal friend of many years, my former dean at
the College of Charleston, current provost at The Citadel, Dr. Sam Hines.
Sam knows as much about Jewish Studies as most anyone in the room. Sam
watched, fostered, helped in many ways the growth of Jewish Studies at the college from
its inception. Jewish Studies at the college is testimony to his leadership and to his vision.
It’s an honor to introduce him.
SAM HINES: Thank you, Marty. It’s a real pleasure to be here today. I have one
of my distinguished faculty on the panel, Joelle Neulander, who will, I think, be
moderating the whole panel. Marty only touches on the significance of the relations hip
that he and I had in the thirty-four years that I was here. Marty exemplifies the highest
qualities of academic leadership.
As a department chair, he was probably the best department chair I ever worked
with. He got more out of me than any other department chair when I served as his dean,
and he was constantly looking for ways to improve the quality of student life, the welfare
of faculty, and to be able to bring, in this case with Jewish Studies, something that he
knew would resonate so well with this community and would help make the College of
Charleston an even more distinctive institutio n.
And in my thirty- four years here, Marty, I’ve got to tell you, one of the memories
that I will always cherish is all the work that went into what you now observe as an
unbelievably successful academic, student-oriented, community-oriented partnership that
touches people in so many ways. And I thank you so much for the collaboration, and
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Marsha, the work that you’ve done at The Citadel for Jewish cadets. We have a few in
the audience.
It’s wonderful to see these two great institutions sharing a common bond and
interest with the Jewish community in Charleston. So, I thank you for giving me an
opportunity to acknowledge the time I spent with you in this great enterprise and to
complement the panelists on this landmark occasion where we will be looking at Jewish
life at The Citadel through the eyes of cadets over, I think you said seven decades, Marty.
So, thank you for the event, and thank all of you for being with us today.
JOELLE NEULANDER: Well, I want to thank everybody for coming out today.
This is a wonderful group to see. What we’re going to do here is we’re going to have
each of our panelists talk a little bit, for about five or seven minutes, about their own
experiences as Jewish cadets at The Citadel. And then we will open up the floor for
questions, and also hopefully you have some stories of your own for those who graduated
from The Citadel themselves.
I am absolutely thrilled to be up here with six such extraordinary men. And as a
historian of Europe myself and a professor at The Citadel, it’s really wonderful to see
such a collection from the Class of ’42 all the way to this year’s graduating class of 2014.
So, let me first - I want to just mention, there are some sheets of a photograph in the
audience that is a photograph of a Hillel meeting from 1960. And it’s interesting to see
the number of Jewish cadets who were there at the time. And I just think if you get a
chance to look at it, it’s just a fascinating historical artifact, as I like to say. So, have a
look at that.
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And then, I will right now just introduce all six of the men on the panel, and then
we will go one by one as they share their stories with you. So, we have Bernard
Warshaw, Class of 1942, Bernard Solomon, Class of 1947, Les Bergen, Class of 1969,
Steve Josias, Class of 1970, Alan Reyner, Class of 1972 and Jonathan Rosen, who will be
the Class of 2014. So, Bernard, can we start with you, Mr. Warshaw, and have you tell us
a little bit about your experience at The Citadel and perhaps how that experience shaped a
little bit of your life after you left?
BERNARD WARSHAW: I’ll be glad to do so. And I didn’t realize I was going to
be in a Citadel kindergarten down here. Some of these graduates down here weren’t even
considered being born at the time I finished The Citadel. And that’s been about 70 years
ago or thereabouts or whatever. But let me tell something. We were not fortunate enough
to have a lady at The Citadel when I was there like this lady sitting on here who takes
care of The Citadel cadets now. And I thank you for your efforts and for getting them
together.
I wish we had had a little more cohesive organization when I was there, but it was
rather helter-skelter as far as religion is concerned. Now, I was told earlier that I’m
supposed to talk about the anti-Semitism when I was at The Citadel, but I can’t. I was
very fortunate. I have nothing to tell you about anti-Semitism at The Citadel. I had no
such occurrences during my stay there.
And let me get on another subject. I’m a five-year cadet. I stayed there five years
because General Summerall, when my application was put in requesting to come, turned
me down because of my educational background, my age - I was sixteen - and because of
a gentleman who was on the board of visitors at the time, Colonel Joe Mura and my
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father and I had an audience with General Summerall. And he said you’ll never make it.
You should be going to a prep school. I said, guess what, General. I feel as if I’m going
to try. And if I don’t make it, I’ll count the first year as a prep school.
But I made the freshman basketball team, and that was a feat because I walked
around with a big letter at Walterboro for a W and for those of my friends who are here,
and I thank you for coming, I know it’s an effort to have gotten up as early as some of
you had to get up and come to this affair. I certainly thank you for coming. But
nevertheless, at the end of my freshman year, having had a good basketball season, I
failed two subjects, and I changed from engineering to business, so was told that I’ll have
to spend another year because [unintelligible] school, which didn’t make a difference to
me.
But I finished on May the 31st , 1942. And when I got home I had a telegram
ordering me to active duty. And I had ten days to report to Camp Stewart outside of
Savannah, Georgia. Within a matter of months, I was in Casablanca for further training
going into the desert and that sort of thing. And Rommel quit, thank God, a little earlier
than he thought he was going to, so we never did get our fray in the desert.
But nevertheless, from there I went to invasion of Sicily and Italy, Anzio
Beachhead, Cassino Front of course, Southern France, Germany, Battle of the Bulge back
into Germany. And I had a job to do - no hero, no hero. But nevertheless our flag is still
flying and that’s what it’s all about, and we must protect our flag. I’m a great believer in
taking care of our constitution, taking care of our people in our country, taking care of
those people out of the country who still are friends of ours.
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We have very few, but the friends that we do have in the world is truly a friend.
And we have so many who burn our flags, tear up our flags, find fault with not only we
Americans but we Jews as well. And getting back to The Citadel, again I tell you I
experienced no anti-Semitic moves. And if I did have some, I didn’t have the intelligence
to realize that I was being turn the wrong direction.
So, for all my classmates and Citadel people who were there at the time, I thank
them for being gentlemen. But now, let me tell you anti-Semitism comes in all colors, all
shapes, all places. You never know where it’s going to happen or when it’s going to
happen. But the smart person is the person that knows how to handle it. You just don’t
take whatever is said to you.
Each incident is different. Each incident is to be remembered by you. The incident
that is committed by someone who is anti-us, you don’t want to associate with them to
start with. But again, I say it comes in all shapes and forms and colors. It’s people with
intelligence, such as you folks who are sitting in the audience today, who can help the
situation and help the world become more intelligent, to understand not only your own
religion but other religions.
All my life I was raised - I have attended all the churches in our community.
Many of you have done the same thing. I’ve learned the Bible from one end to the other,
even though I’m not a student of the Bible. But nevertheless, to answer the final question
that was asked me before I accepted to be on the panel, I was fortunate. I had no antiSemitism remembrances at The Citadel. And I salute those who have helped us, we Jews,
get along in the world. That’s all I can say. Where else do I go?
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JN: I think we’re good for now. That was wonderful. And we’ll definitely open it
up to questions once everybody’s had their chance to speak. Now, let’s turn over the
microphone to Mr. Solomon, Class of 1947.
BERNARD SOLOMON: Bernard is a hard act to follow, I’ll tell you. He’s very
loved by so many people. In fact, I was out with four lovely ladies last night, and all they
commented was, we’re going to hear Bernard Warshaw talk. I said, you know, I’m going
to be there, too.
I’m going to echo Bernard in the sense that never did I feel any anti-Semitism at
The Citadel, never experienced it. Of course, you do have your individuals, and there
were a few there. But as a whole, there was never any of that.
My going to Citadel was by a fluke. I really wanted to go to Ohio State. And I
was accepted there, but I was sixteen and a half years old. The war was going on. And I
said, you know, I’d better learn a little bit about Army life and see what the hell it’s going
to be. So, I opted for The Citadel, and I went there, and my first experience was
[intimate]. We had set our rooms. My trunk was still there. The upperclassmen came in,
and they said me and my roommate strip. I said, what? They said [be great].
We stripped. Then they said, you lay on the trunk, and told my roommate there’s
a basin in the room. Fill the basin with water. You sit in the basin. Now, you in the basin
sing Row, Row, Row Your Boat, and you on the trunk paddle your way like you're
swimming the ocean. I said, holy cow. What did I get myself into? We’re going to lose
this war. I said, if the Germans weren’t so bad I was ready to join the Germans. But that
was my introduction to The Citadel.
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And then, after that, there were other things. And my experience there was very
good. I had no problems. We had - it was not normal times for The Citadel. The corps
was down to five hundred people, and people kept moving in and out, in and out. They
were called to service. I had about five or six different roommates because they would be
called to the service. There was very much of that going on.
There was still a meeting about the compulsory formation for religious services
on Sunday, and we did that. But there was no [strong] Hillel going on at that time. And
we went ahead with programs. The one thing that did happen, and the commandant I had
at that time, I think, was McMurray. And he cut out any holiday privileges for Jewish
cadets for the Holy Days.
And so, we had to confront that. And with the rabbis we went to him and we got
that restored. But I don’t think that had anything to do with anti-Semitism. I think it was
probably just the Army, so to speak. So, we got that restored.
My main connection with The Citadel came in around about 1969 when MV: Earlier. [1965]
BS: Earlier? Well, I had Steve and Les. I became very interested, and the rabbi
approached me about getting the cadets more integrated with the Charleston community.
At that point I got Hillel going. Every Sunday morning, we had the B’nai B’rith girls
come in, serve them breakfast, a little bit of breakfast, a hot roll or whatever. And they
enjoyed that. And then we had speakers come to speak to the cadets.
And one of our - I remember very - I thought it was a memorable occasion. At the
time, KK Beth Elohim was observing its 250th anniversary. And I had a speaker come in,
Tom Tobias. And he was such a wonderful guy. His great - I don’t know how many
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greats, but his great-great-great-great- grandfather was the first president of KK Beth
Elohim. And at the anniversary, they made Tom Tobias president of KK Beth Elohim in
honor of that situation.
And he came to speak to us. And I mention that because it was a very warm and
wonderful occasion. The cadets had very warm reception by the Charleston community.
They were taken into the homes. They enjoyed hospitalities. I had these boys over at my
house. He lost his ring at my house. I keep [searching].
LES BERGEN: My high school ring.
BS: High school ring. And Les was really very much favored by the girls. I never
saw too much of him. But anyway, we did have a wonderful time. And my time at The
Citadel, although short, after I was sixteen and a half, I was called into the service. And
when I came out, I did not go back. I went back to The Citadel and served a couple of
years but took my last year of Citadel as a combined degree with law school. So I didn’t
spend too much time at Citadel. I went to law school.
I was supposed to go to Ohio State, but again I stuck with The Citadel to finish up
my years, and then I went through law school. From that, I went into the Navy. I had a
wonderful time. I thought that world was beautiful, and I didn’t have to go overseas. The
war ended when I entered the service, in April of - I entered in January. The war ended in
April of ’45. And so, that was my career.
And I enjoyed every minute of it. The Citadel, the hazing, there was no real
hazing at The Citadel when I was there. I don’t know what goes on now. They had some
stupid things that you had to do. For instance, I had to roll a roll of toilet paper with my
nose around the quadrangle. That was wonderful. And then they had one where they
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would come into the room and say it’s time to give you a swat on your behind. And what
they did is you took a book, stood it up and opened up, and it was either the last number
of the first page or the last number of the second page.
So, I beat that rap. What I did is I trained my book to open so when I opened it up
it said either one or two. So, I trained that. And there were other little things like that, but
it was all - the way I interpret all that is The Citadel made good men. And it taught you to
cope with situations, ridiculous as they may be, but to cope with it. And it actually
destroyed and built you up. It destroyed and built you up. And I found that very
interesting in my thinking. And I really had no qualms with going to The Citadel.
What I don’t remember, maybe some of you can help me, I don’t ever remember
being served ham or pork at The Citadel. Do you recall that? I don’t recall. The reason
why I say that, because when I went into the Navy, my first mess hall at the Navy, I
turned to my shipmate and I said, gee, this is the most wonderful veal cutlet I ever had in
my life. He said, what the hell are you talking about? That’s pork. I go, oh my God! I
didn’t know what pork was. I came from a very Orthodox home. And that’s why I don’t
remember eating pork at The Citadel.
Of course, we had a good mess sergeant where we would contribute money and
he would have food brought in. It was small, five hundred cadets, and they could do those
things. And so, we had special meals. We paid for it separately, but we had special meals.
And as you know at that time, all ration books were turned in to The Citadel, everything sugar, everything, even for stockings. I had no use for stockings, but everything was turn
into The Citadel.
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But it was a good time, and I did learn a lot. I think it helped make me a better
person, and I do recommend it highly. I don’t think there should be any regrets. You’d
have to put up with a lot of bull, but it helps make a better person out of you.
BW: You’ve sold it.
JN: Thank you so much, Mr. - there we go. Next, let bring the mic over - oops.
I’ll just talk like this for now. Next, we’ll turn the mic over to Les Bergen, Class of 1969.
LES BERGEN: Hi. How are you? I’ve got to come back on something Bernard
said here. I was either a sophomore or junior before I realized that those were not veal
chops. One of the things Bernard, I think, or I’ve heard it from Reina, I guess, realized
that his daughters were coming into their teen years. There had been an active Hillel at
The Citadel in the mid-1950s that I think met once a month. And then it fell apart.
And so, in the mid-60s Bernard recreated Hillel at The Citadel. And we met. At
that time, we had mandatory chapel every Sunday morning. So we would - there was this
huge Protestant chapel with all their sashes and swords and whatever marching into the
main chapel at The Citadel, and separate chapels at Bond Hall for the Catholics, the
Episcopalians, the Eastern Orthodox. And we had a little Jewish chapel. We had, what,
about twenty-five Jewish cadets in the late 60s.
And we would form up in a platoon in front of the sallyport at Padgett-Thomas
Barracks. That’s the one with the tower. And we would march around the parade ground,
around the Protestant chapel, into Mark Clark Hall, into a second-floor room where
Bernard was there with his bagels and cream cheese.
And the one who remembered that - I must admit I didn’t recall that. Ira Stern,
who’s still a good buddy of mine, related to the Fox family here all he remembers is the
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bagels and cream cheese. And then you would arrange to have - one of the three rabbis
would come through in a rotation each Sunday. And we would hold an abbreviated little
Shacharit service out of an Army prayer book, a Siddur. And then, they would give a
little talk while we’re eating. And then we’d break up.
And, twice a year I think you had a social. And that’s where I met my wife, Jane,
who was then Jane [Banov], in high school, and other high school girls. We didn’t know
any of the women our age because they were off in college somewhere. But it was Karen
Lapin, who’s now Karen Cohen and still our dear friend, and Patricia Rones, now Sykes,
and a few others. We’re still friends with some of these, and of course Reina [Solomon
Rubin] still.
And then, other things I remember, well, from back earlier, 1950s period of the
Hillel, in 1954 was a guy from Philadelphia who graduated, Ed Goldenberg [who also
met his wife at Citadel Hillel events]. And his family owned Goldenberg’s Chocolate, a
regional firm in the Philadelphia area that sold between Philly and New York. The family
owned it for almost a century. When he retired he sold the firm about eight or ten years
ago. But Ed has still been active in Citadel affairs. Particularly in the late 90s he got
active in Citadel affairs.
BS: I don’t see a K on these things. I don’t know.
LB: They are kosher. They’re OU kosher. And Ed told me back in the 90s he sold
these in Saudi Arabia for that reason. They trusted him. Except he took the name
Goldenberg off.
Let’s see, High Holy Days, back then we would be free to leave campus for those
days. I would go to Emanuel, which back then was over by - near The Citadel.
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BS: Gordon Street.
LB: Gordon Street, in a concrete block building. And the first year I stayed or had
dinner with the Bluesteins, who were Dad’s customers. And then I think third year was at
your [Bernard Solomon] house. That’s where I lost my high school ring that time. By the
way, that’s why BS: On the sofa.
LB: That’s why Jane and I are married. I’d be coming over to the Banovs’ house
and forget something each time, so I had a reason to come back. And I haven’t changed.
Other things I remember, little things about Citadel life, all messes or all meals were
mandatory back then. I think that’s not entirely true on the weekends anymore or
breakfast. I’m not sure for upperclassmen.
So, we had grace before meals said by somebody on the regimental staff. And
they rotated. It’d be a Catholic, a Protestant and a Jewish. Now, the Catholic and
Protestant graces were the ones that you would all be familiar with. We’ve all heard them
many times, very lovely. But the Jewish grace before meals was some long, archaic
something I’ve never heard before or since. It was just really bizarre, and I was
embarrassed every time I heard it and wished they would have just replaced it with the
Hamotzi translated into English, which would have gone over really well with the cadets.
Short, get it out of the way, have something nice to say. But that’s what we had.
There was also a cadet prayer. And at the time we were cadets, there was a little
book called the Guidon that’s given to all the knobs to memorize plebe knowledge and so
forth. Back then it was on page two, and it was written by an alumnus who became an
Episcopal bishop, Class of 1892. And it was written for the centennial of The Citadel in
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1942. And it had a very Christian ending, so we never said it in Jewish chapel. I never
learned it.
And I regret - this has had a lasting impression. That was a very emotional prayer
to all of our classmates. So even today when we have five-year reunions, we started with
a memorial service for our departed, and part of that is the Citadel prayer. But the
difference is now it’s in the middle of the Guidon. It’s clearly stated as optional. And now
the Christian ending to that is stated as optional.
So, we have mixed-group type things like our class memorial service, the
Christian ending is left off. When we have - also many of the alumni associations once a
year have something very similar to a Jewish Yizkor service where we memorialize all
the alumni who has been deceased during that past year. And we call out each of their
names and so forth.
And among other things we always do the cadet prayer, which again is very
emotional to all my classmates. We do it without the Christian ending, but I’m the only
one who doesn’t know it by heart. I’m the only one that doesn’t have that. So, that’s a
lasting difference. I’m trying to think what else.
I interviewed Henry Rittenberg, Class of 1938. And he always was computerliterate. Many of you remember him. So, he would be in touch with a lot of us in the 90s
and early 2000s before he was unable to do it on the computer, listservs with all of us at
least a generation, most of us two generations younger than him. And he would tell about
Citadel life in the 30s.
I interviewed him about a year and a half ago before he passed away, and he
confirmed what Bernard Warshaw has just said. He was about four years older than
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Bernard. There was no Jewish life on campus at that time. He was let off for High Holy
Days. One year he was there High Holy Days were just like this year, the first week of
school. And he informed General Summerall, who let all the Jewish cadets report in two
days late. I’ve got lots more, but I think that’s enough for the time.
JN: Thank you so much.
BS: One important comment I wanted to make - I’m sorry to take this time, but at
The Citadel they had rooms for different religions. We had no special room. The
Catholics had a special room, and I went with the rabbi and we finally got The Citadel to
consent to give us a room which I wanted dedicated to our services and to make a
reference library.
And we were working on it and it was coming through. Then when - getting back
to what the Supreme Court said, they said no further mandatory attendance at services, I
saw no Jewish cadets anymore, so we lost our position. But I wish they could do that. I
don’t know what they do today, Marsha. Maybe you could explain that, whether there’s
any special room.
MARSHA ALTERMAN : Yeah, they have given us a room that we use every
Monday night. And once a month we do a meal. When we need a bigger room, it’s
provided by the College of Charleston students, and they provide us with the space for
that as well. [unintelligible] We have the wedding room.
STEVE JOSIAS: Good morning. My name is Steve Josias. I am a member of the
Class of 1970. I came to The Citadel from Long island. So, the biggest problem that I had
to overcome initially was not being Jewish but being a Yankee. After attempting to deal
with that problem, probably unsuccessfully, being Jewish was somewhat secondary. Of
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course, in addition to that I was also a smart-mouth, so I had three problems to deal with being a Yankee, being Jewish, which I didn’t really consider a problem, and being a
smart-mouth. So, I could never really understand. If I had a problem, I wasn’t really sure
exactly why, but it always tended to be one of those three reasons.
What was interesting to me was, of course, learning about not just my own
religion and other religions, learning about the South. And when I came to The Citadel,
for example, I’d never met a Southern Baptist. And I hadn’t met very many people from
the South, if any. So, it was an educational experience in many dimensions for me. And it
was also an era of The Citadel when I was there - I started in 1966. It was an era of
intense civil rights change in America.
The first African-American to attend The Citadel was Charlie Foster, who was a
classmate of mine. And there was, I think, a sense of awareness of racial differences,
religious differences, geographic differences. It was interesting in that respect. That was
something of a backdrop and something that we could intellectualize and discuss in all of
its - sometimes ugly ramifications, sometimes sort of enlightened ramifications.
Let me just also say that I wasn’t entirely sure about some aspects of my Judaism.
But thanks to Bernard Solomon, who really opened up his home, his heart, to all of us
when we were there, there was an ability to develop a better sense about Judaism. And I
always thank him for that. In addition, he allowed us to meet his daughter, Reina, and he
was a great inspiration in a tumultuous era that certainly increased my self-awareness.
And I always thank him for that.
A big shift took place at The Citadel in the 1972 Supreme Court decision that
changed this mandatory chapel situation for us. And so, even if you didn’t know you
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
19
were Jewish, you sort of found out you were Jewish because you went to services. And I
think that to some degree we may have lost a little bit of something when that changed.
But it was sort of an important part that I might have had a sort of a philosophical
opposition to, but something that helped me to be aware of my own religious identity.
Another interesting thing that occurred when I was there was the Arab-Israeli War
of 1967, the Six Day War. I suddenly - when that occurred, an upperclassman who I
didn’t particularly like and didn’t particularly like me appeared in my room one day and
said, “You Jews really know how to fight.” So I was somewhat uplifted and gained some
credibility, at least in the eyes of a militarily-oriented individual, because this person, at
least, and some others realized that there was something going on in the Middle East and
that it’s something that might affect other people’s lives and international relations were
occurring.
Anti-Semitism at The Citadel, I never thought was institutionalized ever, in any
way. But it was, to some degree, individualized. You could have an experience with
someone over something. And sometimes it was just almost harmlessly initiated. I
remember frequently being asked if I was a Jewish. They would say, you're a business
administration major. My answer was, no, I already have a degree in that. I’ll get a degree
in something else.
That was kind of my irresponsible, immature answer to that. I pretty much said
we’re born being smart in that area, so I’ll learn about history or political science or
something else. Probably, as I say, an immature answer, but it was the answer that I liked
at the time.
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
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Let me just talk a little bit about how anti-Semitism could materialize. I think that
to some degree there were cadets who just didn’t know enough about what it was to be
Jewish, and they were exploring as much as we were exploring. I was learning about
Southern Baptists, and I was learning about Protestants and Catholics, and they were
learning about Jews.
I never had a Jewish roommate, but everyone that I knew, or all of my roommates
were always curious and supportive. Many upperclassmen, whether they were Jewish or
not, were protective. They understood that you might have the odd experience and that
maybe - I remember upperclassmen like Les and others who would say, look, if anything
happens, if there’s anything that goes on, just let us know. And certainly, occasionally,
something did occur.
I certainly never experienced any issues in the classroom other otherwise. I
always felt that the faculty and staff, all of those understood. But there could be the off
event. I’ll spare you some of the details of this, but I did have an incident that did occur
when a cadet who was somewhat anti-Semitic took one of those squeeze ketchup bottles
in the mess hall and drew a swastika on it and tossed it at me and hit me right in the chest
with it at a weekend mess and then went on to abuse me a good deal thereafter.
That cadet learned from another cadet that that was not the right thing to do.
Unfortunately, the evidence of this incident was all over my uniform, and when I got
back into the barracks an upperclassman took me aside and forced me to sort of describe
what occurred, which I reluctantly did. And that upperclassman went down to this other
upperclassman’s barracks and taught him a lesson in tolerance. And that upperclassman
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
21
who had perpetrated this incident learned from a couple of days in the hospital of study,
learned about probably not a good idea to do that kind of thing.
So, those things did occur, but I actually focused more on the fact that somebody
went down there and sort of stood up for me. I kind of took some great comfort in that.
So, yes, things occurred, but things occur in society. The Citadel is, percentage-wise,
probably no higher or lower than anyplace else with intolerant behavior, unacceptable
behavior. And it wasn’t a tremendous focus all the time.
I also would like to say that - and I’m not saying this just because of where I am but it was wonderful to be in a community that had an active Jewish cultural life. The
Jewish cultural history in Charleston is rich and expansive. When I came here, many of
the stores on King Street were closed on Saturday. This was much different from where I
was from in New York. That was not the case.
And the community itself was very embracing and very welcoming. And I
thought that that was a marvelous aspect of being in the South and being at The Citadel.
Charleston was a very supportive Jewish community, and I enjoyed my time here. I
enjoyed it, to some degree, because I was Jewish. And I liked being a little bit different
and being appreciated for the difference.
JN: Now, Mr. Reyner, Class of 1972.
ALAN REYNER: Steve, do you think they discriminated against you because you
were Jewish or because you were a smart-mouth? I tell you, for the Southern guys down
there, Yankees and smart-mouths did not go over well.
My name is Alan Reyner, and before I get into the topic at hand, I want to go back
to Mr. Warshaw. I had read with great interest the wonderful article in the Post and
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
22
Courier this past Sunday. And for those of you who are not historians or don’t know
much about it, when Mr. Warshaw mentioned just a minute ago that he had kind of
missed out on any fighting in North Africa - and then I was waiting to hear talk about
Italy.
He kind of glossed over that as well. But to fight at Anzio and to fight at Monte
Cassino, there wasn’t any more difficult fighting in World War II. And we salute you, sir.
I don’t know if [unintelligible]. I’d like to think - can you hear me? I seem to get an echo.
I’d like to think in some small way because of the little conversation Les and I had a few
months, maybe a year or two ago, that Marty overheard that I’m playing a small part in
this little gathering today. But the colloquy between Les and I went something like this.
Well, you know, Les, when I was at The Citadel, it was Corps Day - that’s March,
for those non-graduates here - before I realized my first name wasn’t Heeb for Hebrew.
But the important part of that colloquy was that second part of it, to me. And I hope it
was to Marty. And I said to Les, the same people that kept calling me Heeb all during my
freshman year ranked me third in my company at the end of the year.
And I think the message in all this is, there really wasn’t any discrimination to
amount to anything there against Jews. They were really discriminating against
everybody for anything and everything. If you were fat, they got on you. If you were
South of Broad, boy, they got on you there. If you had a girlfriend, oh Lord, were they
jealous. I mean, it was really something.
And obviously - now, let me say this. Being ranked third in your company is not
ranked third in the whole corps. It’s just thirty of us. But obviously the same people did
not hold that against me at all for any reason. Let’s see. What else? I think probably I
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
23
have experienced much more discrimination outside of The Citadel than at The Citadel.
And not that it’s been a lot, but you’ve got to keep everything in perspective the way
times have changed over these years. And The Citadel was no different from anything
else.
In thinking about - I’ll give you a good example. In thinking about what I was
going to say today, I chose The Citadel, one, because it was something I really felt I
needed. I felt it would give me structure. I felt it would give me discipline. But in
thinking about it I realized there was another reason that was kind of very latent and
hidden back in there.
I grew up in Columbia, South Carolina. All my friends are WASPs, virtually
every one of them. I mean, I have a few Jewish friends that I’m very close with, and of
course we have our temple community that I’m close with. But my closest friends,
they’re all Episcopalian. They’re Presbyterian. They’re Protestant, a Catholic or two,
Greek.
But I realized most of my friends were going off to Southern schools, and you
know what? I just might not be accepted into KA or SAE like all of them. Bernard, I bet
you probably had similar feelings. I see you smiling over there. And so, in a way The
Citadel was the great equalizer, because I can tell you the best thing about The Citadel is,
they don’t care who your daddy and mama is. They just break you down to nothing real
quick. And I mean it’s the quickest, most humbling experience you’ve ever seen in your
life.
Bernard Solomon mentioned there was no hazing when he was there. Well, I can
tell you, these two gentlemen right here to my right, your left, they were there in the
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
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Class of ’70, and if you think about the Class of ’70, they would have matriculated the
fall of ’66. Vietnam was ratcheting up at that time. I came in the fall of ’68. That’s right
after the Tet Offensive in Vietnam.
And we had all these guys there. They knew exactly where they were going to go,
or where most of them were going to go. And there was a lot of bravado. There was a lot
of toughness. But underneath it, they were scared blankless. And they know what I mean
by it. To make matters even more poignant, at night - and I know Les and Steve will
remember this well - we would always have, at eleven o’clock we’d have to play Taps,
and that was time for ESP, or evening study period, to end. You’re supposed to cut your
lights out. Everybody kind of snuck around and studied with flashlights and stuff like
that.
But when a cadet had died in Vietnam, they would play what we call Echo Taps,
or some people call it Tattoo Taps. And instead of your just normal da-da-da,[singing]
whatever, however - I can’t carry a tune - but it’s basically two buglers dueling with
alternating notes back on what we called Indian Hill back there. And you’d be sitting in
your bunk and you’d hear, gentlemen, on November 22nd or whatever, 1970, Cadet Soand-so, who’s now a first lieutenant, was killed in a firefight in Da Nang or something
outside that. And it just sent chills up and down your spines.
And so, it’s hard to explain to somebody who wasn’t there, but my later years, I
would know those people. And it had a tremendous impact on all of us there during that
time. And believe me, they took it out on the underclassmen. These guys did as well. And
so, we had a lot of hazing. Was it positive leadership? I doubt it. Were we any worse for
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
25
it? Not really, I don’t think. I think there are better ways to lead, but it did bring you
together.
I think on the broader subject of anti-Semitism, The Citadel is no different. In
fact, in a lot of ways it’s much better. The services have been wonderful about integrating
all races, all cultures, everything. The Citadel was very much - most of the Corps was
very much against putting women in or allowing women in. I myself wasn’t particularly
fond of it, to be candid with you.
But, you know, when that case came down at VMI, our president at the time put
out a statement. Our Supreme Court has spoken. We know our orders, and we’re
following them. And we’ve had a wonderful record of doing that.
One last thing, and it’s not just The Citadel, but I think it’s being Jewish,
especially here in the South - and again, I think Bernard [Warshaw] who, in case you
don’t know it, again he is Mr. Colleton County - understands this as well as anybody. I
think the best way to fight anti-Semitism is to be proud of your religion and to speak of it
with pride with your friends.
A lot of Christians don’t understand that. They don’t understand our religion.
They don’t understand what we do. Most have a healthy respect because of our covenant
with God. We’re people of the Book, etc. But in, let’s see, ten days I will get on a boat,
and this will be the 25th year, with three other guys. One happens to be a Citadel
graduate. They’re all deep South of Broad people.
I’ve missed one day, one trip in twenty-five years, and that was because of Yom
Kippur. And they know our trip doesn’t coincide with my holidays. And in a small way I
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
26
think I’ve educated them quite a bit about who we are and what we stand for. That’s
enough. I’ll pass it on. Thanks.
JN: Go ahead, Jonathan. It’s all yours.
JONATHAN ROSEN: It’s interesting to listen to these gentlemen speak about
their experiences seeing as they’ve graduated and gone on and done incredible things
after they’ve finished from this institution. And I think that that’s definitely one of the
cornerstones of what makes this place so special, is the gentlemen that are sitting up here
and that one day I hope to be a part of after I finish my time at The Citadel.
One of the most interesting things that I also have been hearing from them is how
there have been a lot of changes at The Citadel, but the fundamental principles and what
the school really is hasn’t really changed that much. As far as what makes this school so
great, it’s definitely the sense of equality and the fundamental principles that really
produce that principled leader. And being Jewish at The Citadel, it was just another
chance and opportunity for me to practice those leadership skills.
And largely in part that’s been made possible by Mrs. Marsha Alterman, who has
been there every step of the way making sure that Jewish cadets on campus have a place
to go for Shabbat, have the approved specialty that they need for the High Holidays, but
more importantly to mentor us in the right direction of pursuing Judaism in whichever
aspect that we would be interested in living a Jewish life.
As far as the traditions, though, that I think are just absolutely beautiful to hear is
the concept of the fact that when a soldier would pass away from The Citadel, the
concept of Echo Taps, those traditions, again, are the things that make this place so
beautiful.
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
27
AR: Do you still do it?
JR: We still do it. We just did it for an alum who was killed. But, in short, I came
from Wisconsin, and I had absolutely no idea what I was getting myself into. I was the
only Jew at the high school that I attended, which was a Jesuit college preparatory high
school. And most of my friends, they were going on to Notre Dame or to some Ivy
League college. And then, when it came time for me to choose which university I was
going to attend, I had no idea. The only thing that I knew was that I wanted to become a
better individual and that somehow after googling different paths that I could take I found
The Citadel, and I instantly just fell in love with the concept of what we were trying to do
here.
And, I haven’t regretted my decision one bit. And I think it’s definitely largely
due to the fact, the chance and the opportunity that I’ve had as a Jew at The Citadel. It’s
been a great opportunity for me to not only practice my own version of Judaism but to
work with the Jews on campus. That’s the thing that I really have loved and enjoyed was
working with those two cadets over there.
Honestly, it warms my heart to think of the fact that after I graduate those two
gentlemen will be taking my position as the president of the Jewish Student Union, and
they’re going to do amazing things. And that, to me, is really the highlight of me being
part of the Jewish Student Union.
As far as Jewish life at The Citadel, every Monday we have a coordinated
meeting with the Jewish Student Union. Sometimes this function will be meetings with
College of Charleston girls, which are very enjoyable. Also, though, sometimes we’ll get
different speakers. We’ll have rabbis come talk to us about stuff about - it could be
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
28
anything. It could be about the High Holidays, about conceptual Judaism. It could be
about just - they want to understand, what is this place that you go to? Why do they have
shaved heads?
But it’s really great because of the different opportunities that we’re given. And
it’s interesting to hear that those opportunities weren’t always there. And I think that’s
largely due in part because of people like Marsha Alterman and to the current chaplain,
Chaplain Harris, who’s so adamant and so invested in making sure that not just Jewish
cadets but all cadets are given the chance and the opportunity to pursue whatever spiritual
life they’re interested in.
And that’s made evident by the mandatory services that every cadet needs to
attend as freshmen, as knobs, from matriculation until, I want to say, Parents Weekend.
And then, after that period is over, it’s always interesting to see that even after the Jewish
cadets are done having their mandatory, obligatory services, the majority - I would say
about eight out of ten, nine out of ten - choose to continue their Jewish culture. They
choose to invest time into being a part of this great community that we have, which is
incredibly small.
There’s only ten of us. But for those ten, even as a freshman I looked up so much
to the leaders that were involved in the Jewish Student Union. I just remember walking in
as a knob into the upperclassman lounge and seeing the size of the biceps of the guy who
was in charge of the Jewish Student Union. I was like, I’ve got to stay close to this guy. I
need to listen to what he does.
But it’s really been a great chance and opportunity to really be in a position where
I get to, not only as a freshman or as a sophomore to witness these great leaders in our
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
29
community. But more often than not it gave me a sense of pride about being Jewish. You
know, everybody - or at least not everybody, but I feel like the common stereotype for a
Jew, it’s not necessarily a nice stereotype.
You think of somebody who’s not good at sports or somebody who’s a little bit
scrawny. But looking at those men and seeing those men and how strong they were and
the way that they carried themselves and the character that they had, it was awe-inspiring.
And it motivated me to really turn into that. And it really is something that I look back on
when I think about myself as a cadet. I don’t just think of myself as just a cadet. I think of
myself as a Jewish cadet because it’s really been an incredible experience.
And the mentors and the people that I’ve met along the way that have been so
supportive, not just within The Citadel but also the CFC, through the Jewish Student
Union. And even just the alumni who are at temple, we would go for services and these
alumni would ask us, please come for Shabbat. Please break bread with us. And they’re
always so supportive and so kind. And for that, I’m so grateful and thankful for.
As far as hazing and anti-Semitism, the way that I see it now is, it’s not too
different from what these gentlemen have stated before. The way I see it, The Citadel is a
place where if you’re doing something wrong you’re going to be told that you’re doing
something wrong. They’re going to find things that are different about you.
And it’s not the fact that you’re Jewish. It’s not the fact that you're Muslim or
Catholic or whatever religion. It could be that you have red hair. It’s the concept of what
that freshman year is like. You’re meant to feel a little bit broken down. Now, have I seen
instances of anti-Semitic attitudes by individuals? Yes. But more often than not, it’s like
these gentlemen have also said. Those individuals are just too ignorant to understand the
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
30
fact that it’s a religion. It’s a way of life. It’s a philosophy that we have. And you can’t
change that.
And I guess that’s one of the biggest things that I tell my freshmen is, you guys
are going to be put in leadership positions and leadership roles, and you really need to
take responsibility in the fact that you need to understand when you’re leading somebody
or leading a group of people, not everybody is going to be the same.
And being Jewish on campus really gives us that insight as a minority. It teaches
us that we are the minority. We know what it’s like to be treated a certain way. But we
learn that you really need to know your people, and you need to treat them with the same
respects that you are given.
And then, as far as hazing goes, really what it boils down to is, I never, ever felt
bad for being Jewish. If anything, any comment that anybody made about me being
Jewish, it only strengthened my resolve and made me more proud for who I am. And I
think that that’s coinciding with what these gentlemen have said, too.
So, again, like I said, a lot of things have changed. But I think it’s safe to say that
The Citadel is still an institution that produces fine gentlemen. And I hope to join the
ranks of these gentlemen in a year and be on that list of notable alumni.
BW: I’ve been given permission to think about three minutes. I’m going to
eventually get to an incident that happened at The Citadel we haven’t discussed. It
happened the early part of 1990. But after I introduce our favorite middle daughter, Miss
Beth, sitting here and her friend, and Joe Engel, my cousin, and Doctor Glassboro, my
cousin, I would like to ask all you participants here if you’re a Citadel person please
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
31
either stand or raise your hand so we’ll know and give you all the accolades by applause,
all Citadel people. There’s Joe down there.
And the reason I wanted to have the audience see you, in case you decide you
want to contribute to the organization of Hillel or whatever else, because you know that’s
a quality the Jewish folks have. We’re always looking for contributions. I was not asked
to say that.
MV: Now we know who you are.
BW: Absolutely. But nevertheless I’m sure that Jewish Studies would appreciate
donations as well. I want to thank some very special people who are here today, and that
means all of you. Everyone’s important and all VIPs, and I want to thank especially
Marty Perlmutter, our founder. I became very close to Marty when I was fortunate
enough to be elected as the president of the South Carolina Jewish Historical Society
some years ago. It didn’t teach me too much other than to appreciate this gentleman who
captured into the Charleston atmosphere. And I thank you, Marty. And in the same office,
you will find Enid Idelsohn. And without Enid, Marty couldn’t answer the telephone.
In the early part of the 1990s I received a telephone call from a father of a cadet at
The Citadel who advised me there was a Nazi group or cell at The Citadel and they met
once a month. And they had the normal Nazi flags and the Nazi this and the Nazi that. I’d
gotten a bellyful of it a few years before that anyway as a lot of my friends have asked,
did you bring any souvenirs home? I said I’m not a souvenir traveler. That came with
little groups behind us. Those waves were behind us. They were the ones who got the
souvenirs.
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
32
But nevertheless I made a call to [unintelligible] at The Citadel, and after about
three or four weeks that meeting and group was disbanded. And then we did have followup checkings on it by this official at The Citadel who is no longer associated with the
school. But he saw fit to have it broken up immediately, and the father of the cadet who
initially called me called me again. And I tell you this for the first time. I don’t think I’ve
ever told this story to anyone. But everything was brought to a halt, and the Nazi regime
at The Citadel ended.
I want to thank you all for coming, and let me tell you it’s an absolute pleasure
seeing some of my [unintelligible] out there that I’ve known for many years. In fact,
before we started I was offered a job by two businesses in the audience, by Mr. Henry
and Steve [unintelligible]. They asked if I’d like to come back to the cleaning business.
And Mr. Manny [unintelligible] offered me a job [unintelligible]. And they want to pay
me what I think I’m worth, not what they think I’m worth.
And those who’ve come from [unintelligible], my longtime friends, I thank you.
The [unintelligible], I thank you for your interest, and we certainly enjoyed having you.
And now I think it’s time to ask if there’s any questions. Is that correct?
JN: That’s right.
BW: Any questions?
MP: Yes, sir.
AUDIENCE MEMBER 1: About two years ago there was an article in the Post
and Courier talking about an open meeting for the formation of the [unintelligible]
[Muslim Student Assn on] campus. The imam of the local mosque spoke, and his
message was [unintelligible]. And so, they got the question answered, and then
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
33
[unintelligible]. My question, is that organization functioning on the campus today? If so,
what effect does it have?
BW: [unintelligible] [I have no] knowledge to answer your question, and I can’t
do that.
JN: Here, I can do that. I think the organization is still running. It’s not as active
as it was in the past, but it is still there. It’s really for Muslim students but also for
students at The Citadel, I think, in a similar way to learn something about Islam. And so,
there have been some speakers who have come into campus and spoken about the
religion. It’s certainly not a politicized organization in that kind of way, but it’s
absolutely the same way I think that Jewish students at The Citadel work hard to teach
people about what it means to be Jewish, the same way I think for the Muslim students,
that they also have a responsibility in some ways to teach about that.
So, it is an organization that still exists on campus, although not as active as it was
a couple of years ago. But it does serve an excellent role for education for those people
who really don’t know anything about Islam. And especially, I think, of course, to many
of our students who do end up in service in the Middle East. So, it has become a very
important organization for them.
BW: Any other questions? Oops, so sorry.
LB: A few weeks ago I was at a Citadel Club meeting up in the Washington area,
and one of the guys that’s very active up there is originally from Iran. And there were a
lot of Iranian students here, I guess, in the late 70s just before the Shah was overthrown.
He was here at that time, and he told me - of course, he’s Muslim. And his initial knob
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
34
roommate was a Jewish guy from New York who had never been out of New York
before. And the guy wouldn’t talk to him. He was very unfriendly.
And finally after several weeks - I mean, this is really unusual the beginning of
knob year. And he asked, why are you avoiding me and all that? And he said because
you’re an Arab and I’m afraid you’re going to kill me at night, slit my throat. Of course,
he was Persian. He wasn’t Arab. And he was the nicest guy in the world. He’s now a
retired US Navy Captain and a very respected fellow. So, we have a little bit of bigotry
going on in various directions here. And the guy dropped out. I think he couldn’t take
Southerners or Muslims or anything else.
On a related short thing, at Annapolis, the Naval Academy, Jane and I were up
there at a Southern Jewish Historical Society conference several years ago. And the
Jewish chaplain also took care of the two or three dozen Islamic Muslim students. And
the reason was, a lot of the issues were the same - Kashrut and, I’m going blank, the
Muslim equivalent, holidays, special holidays, time off, different other things. And so,
they just made him chaplain for all the non-Christian students.
He worked off-post with a couple imams informally by phone. And they were all
quite delighted with that arrangement. I don’t know if that’s still true.
AUDIENCE MEMBER 2: [unintelligible] In the 30s, how did you feel about
[unintelligible]? I wasn’t around then, but I did [unintelligible]. I was wondering
[unintelligible].
BW: I’m not sure if I understood you. You asked about the concentration camp?
Is that what you said?
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
35
AM2: At first, yeah. Then I want to know about in the 30s, the late 30s. Did
President Roosevelt have the Jewish people in the United States, attempt to bring in
Jewish people?
BW: [unintelligible], if you recall. Excuse me for interrupting. But President
Roosevelt would not permit [unintelligible]. The ship left [unintelligible]. He would not
let them come in. Since you mentioned the concentration camp, anybody want to hear
about it? I have two feelings in my hands when I open two ovens. One is an old
grandmother, and the other one I can’t tell you.
[unintelligible] opening the other two. It was a sight and smell that I just couldn’t
imagine seeing during normal times of one’s life. Piles of bodies around the ovens, right
out of the shower baths. [unintelligible] There’s no answer as to why. Everyone has an
opinion as to why the folks were killed and maimed. I have pictures that my colonel, who
took pictures of everything during combat all the way - this was April the 30th , 1945 - it
was the day that Hitler saw fit to commit suicide. It’s too bad we didn’t help him do that
years before.
But nevertheless, it’s a sight and scenes that one does not forget. It was always
there, especially the five- or six-year-old little girl who was about a third way up on one
of the piles. The colonel got his camera and said take pictures. He said here’s a roll of
film I brought for you. I said I’ll just get a copy of yours. And he said, no. One of these
days you may need to show it to some folks who may be interested. Anyway, I took the
pictures not knowing it was going to be of value.
And I’ve used them in many of my speeches with my cousin, Joe Engel there. Joe
is a real professional [unintelligible]. But remembering Dachau, there’s a memory as long
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
36
as I’m in my right mind I shall not forget. The smell was there about five miles before we
got to the camp. We walked around with our kerchiefs around our noses. We wore nasty
combat clothes. It was just not a good time in my life. And again I say, and I keep
repeating, and I’m sorry I’m repetitive, but that scene never leaves one once you’ve seen
it.
Let me get back to The Citadel for one second. I’ll tell you that The Citadel’s a
turning point in my life. It’s probably one of the highlights other than meeting my wife
and having children and friends. That’s what life’s all about is family and a few friends.
But The Citadel had an effect on me because of the friends that I met. And I’m still
friends with a few of them. There are a few of my class still living. I think there’s about
21 left.
And anyway, do you want to know some more about Dachau? Is that enough,
Marty?
AUDIENCE MEMBER 3: One of your classmates, [unintelligible] president, he
called me up and got $200 [unintelligible].
BW: I was on the plane with him when he called you.
AM3: He never did run. I’d like to have a refund.
BW: Believe me, [unintelligible] decided to cut it off while I was traveling with
him quite a while. He didn’t get enough money to continue the race. [unintelligible]
AM3: Could you elaborate a little bit about the late 30s, like ’35 or so, ’39, after
the United States [unintelligible]?
BW: [unintelligible]
AM3: I didn’t realize. I thought you said you could relate to it. [unintelligible]
Jewish Cadets at The Citadel
37
JN: Absolutely. The issues of anti-Semitism, obviously, in the 1930s, both in the
United States and really throughout the world, are definitely a wonderful perhaps future
topic for our conversation in terms of thinking about the War. Anyway, I’d like to take
this chance once again to thank our wonderful panelists for speaking about their time.
And if you like, maybe we’ll have a chance to have a little bit of a chat afterwards up
here on the stage. But again, thank you all for coming today, and thanks again to our
panelists.
End of recording.
Edited Les Bergen 4/21/2016