Section 1
1.
2.
3.
Geraint's third and fourth cars
trydydd a phedwerydd car Geraint [1 2 3 4 5]
the third and fourth weeks
y drydedd a’r bedwaredd wythnos [1 2 3 4 5]
my third and fourth cars
Var A:
fy nhrydydd a’m pedwerydd car1 [1 2 3]
’y nhrydydd a ’mhedwerydd car2 [1]
fy nhrydydd a 'mhedwerydd car i [3]
fy nhrydydd a’m mhedwerydd car [4]
Var B:
’y nhrydydd a phedwerydd car3 [1]
fy nhrydydd a phedwerydd car [5]
X1: Almost as above, only mutations differ.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
Geraint's third or fourth car
trydydd neu bedwerydd car Geraint4 [1 4]
the third or fourth week
y drydedd neu’r bedwaredd wythnos [1 4]
my third or fourth car
fy nhrydydd neu fy mhedwerydd car [1]
’y nhrydydd neu ’mhedwerydd car [1]
fy ail [sic!] gar, neu fy mhedwerydd [4]
[Richard Burton was] Elizabeth Taylor's fifth and sixth husband.
RB oedd pumed a chweched gŵr ET [1 2 4]
[Richard Burton was] the fifth and sixth husband.
RB oedd y pumed a’r chweched gŵr [1 2 4]
[Richard was] my fifth and sixth husband.
Richard oedd fy mhumed a’m chweched gŵr5 [1 2 4]
Richard oedd ’y mhumed a ’n chweched gŵr6 [1]
10. [Michael was] Elizabeth's third or fourth husband.
[Michael oedd] trydydd neu bedwerydd gŵr Elizabeth.7 [1 4]
11. [Michael was] the third or fourth husband.
1
formal for X1; X3 adds i.
colloquial for X1.
3
possible but less likely for X1.
4
X4 ... neu pedwerydd.
5
formal for X1.
6
colloquial for X1.
7
X4: ... neu pedwerydd.
2
Michael oedd y trydydd neu’r pedwerydd gŵr. [1 4]
12. [Michael was] my third or fourth husband.
Michael oedd fy nhrydydd neu fy mhedwerydd gŵr.8 [1]
Michael oedd ’y nhrydydd neu ’mhedwerydd gŵr .9 [1]
fy ail [sic!] neu fy nhrydydd gw^r [4]
Comments on this section:
X1: Trying to get real data with ‘fy’ is problematic as colloquial Welsh differs a lot from
written Welsh. I blame William Salesbury.
X3: All these sets seem to behave the same for me. I have to repeat the definite article
and the possessive. The possessive may be realised as a rhagenw mewnol clitic on a
previous a / neu, or as a rhagenw blaen clitic on the following noun. In the second case it
may be lost and only the mutation survives.
8
9
formal for X1.
colloquial for X1.
Section 2
1.
2.
3.
the only towns and cities
yr unig drefi a dinasoedd. [1 2 3 4 5]
its [= a country's] only towns and cities
ei hunig drefi a dinasoedd10 [1 2 3]
the only towns and cities of this country
unig drefi a dinasoedd y wlad hon. [1 2 3 4 5]
4.
5.
6.
the only books and films / boys and girls
his only books and films / sons and daughters
Geraint's only books and films / sons and daughters
7.
[Mr X was ] the only thief and burglar [who was caught].
X3: I have a problem with 7 but it is lexical, in that I can't come up with a
natural word in Welsh which corresponds to 'burglar'. I would use 'lleidr' for
both 'thief' and 'burglar'. The other examples are OK.]
[David is] my only friend and colleague.
X2: if you don’t repeat ‘unig’ it implies David is the only one who is friend
AND colleague. I don’t think it implies there are only 2 people working in the
firm (speaker plus David). You’d need to repeat ‘unig’ if you want to make that
clear. But in ordinary conversation you might use it with either meaning, and
not notice the ambiguity or resolve it with contextual knowledge; once you start
reflecting however (e.g. when writing) you realise the lack of clarity. But isn’t it
unclear in English also? What exactly does it mean?
[Peter was] David's only friend and colleague.
8.
9.
10. all the towns and cities / books and films / boys and girls
yr holl drefi a dinasoedd / pob un o'r trefi a'r dinasoedd [3]
11. all its/his towns and cities / books and films / sons and daughters
ei holl drefi a dinasoedd / pob un o'i threfi a'i dinasoedd [3]
12. all the towns and cities of this country
holl drefi a dinasoedd y wlad hon / pob un o drefi a dinasoedd y wlad hon [3]
13. all [of] Geraint's books and films / sons and daughters
holl lyfrau a ffilmiau Geraint / pob un o lyfrau a ffilmiau Geraint [3]
X3: 14-16 "a bit odd"
14. the only five towns and cities
yr unig bum(p) tref a dinas11 [1 3 4 5]
15. its only five towns and cities
10
11
X4+X5 inadvertently omit the pronoun and translate unig drefi a dinasoedd [gwlad].
X3+X4: bump; so in 15 and 16.
ei unig bum(p) tref a dinas12 [1 3 4 5]
16. the only five towns and cities of this country
unig bum(p) tref a dinas y wlad hon.13 [1 3 4]
Comments on this section:
X1: This seems fairly straightforward and unambiguous. You’d only repeat ‘unig’ and
‘holl’ for emphasis, in an oddly marked context.
X3: 1-3, 4-6 are OK.
In 10-13 I might feel more comfortable with the second set of options I give, though I
can't rule out the first set.
I find 14-16 rather odd.
12
13
X3 hunig.
X5 translates yr unig bum tref a dinas yn y wlad hon.
Section 3
Yes = a and b have roughly the same meaning.
No = a and b have different meanings (or: b makes no sense).
14
1.
a. llyfrau banc a llyfrau rhent
b. llyfrau banc a rhent
Yes [1 5]
Yes ? [3]
No (b = 1 book for both) [2]
No [4]
2.
a. cyllyll bara a chyllyll menyn
b. cyllyll bara a menyn
Yes [1]
No [2 3 4 5]
3.
a. cadeiriau olwyn a chadeiriau breichiau
b. cadeiriau olwyn a breichiau
No14 [1 2 3 4]
Yes [5]
4.
a. llyfr banc a llyfr rhent
b. llyfr banc a rhent
Yes [1 5]
No [2 3 4]
5.
a. cyllell fara a chyllell menyn
b. cyllell fara a menyn
Yes15 [1]
No [2 3 4 5]
6.
a. cadair olwyn a chadair freichiau
b. cadair olwyn a breichiau or freichiau
No [1 2 3 4]
Yes [5]
7.
a. calchfaen a thywodfaen
b. calch- a thywodfaen
No16 [1 2 3 5]
X1: "cadair freichiau is a chunk"; X2: "means nothing".
X1: "Yes - though both readings are more accessible with the singular than in 2 above.
This could mean one type of knife or two different types."
16
X1: "can’t split these".
15
Yes [4]
8.
a. pinwydd a ffynidwydd
b. pin- a ffynidwydd
No17 [1 2 3 4 5]
Comments on this section:
X1: It’s difficult to think of good compound examples.
X3: I think the first example is marginally OK because the compounds involved are
unfamiliar. Once you get into the territory of familiar compounds, the (b) forms are not
OK.
17
X4: "no sense".
Section 4
X1: These examples don’t work well for me. Cas + NP is more selective, i.e. you could
say ‘cas bethau’ but put in front of any noun, it sounds distinctly odd. Using just the
article is also implausible in 2, even just with hoff.
X3 on 1-3: ALL THESE A BIT ODD
1.
2.
3.
Geraint's most favourite and least favourite books
Var A:
hoff a chas lyfrau Geraint [1 2alt 3 4 5]
Var B:
hoff lyfrau Geraint a’i gas lyfrau [2alt]
the most favourite and least favourite books
Var A:
? yr hoff a chas lyfrau [1]
yr hoff a chas lyfrau [4]
Var B:
yr hoff lyfrau a’r cas lyfrau [2alt 5]
Var C:
yr hoff a'r cas lyfrau [2alt 3]
my most favourite and least favourite books
Var A:
fy hoff a chas lyfrau [1]
Var B:
fy hoff a'm cas lyfrau [3alt]
fy hoff a 'nghas lyfrau [3alt]
fy hoff a fy nghas lyfrau [4]
Var C:
fy hoff lyfr a fy nghas lyfr18 [2]
fy hoff lyfrau a fy nghas lyfrau [5]
X3: [4-6] "better than 1-3"
4.
5.
6.
7.
18
Geraint's most favourite or least favourite books
hoff neu gas lyfrau Geraint [3]
the most favourite or least favourite books
yr hoff neu'r cas lyfrau [3]
my most favourite or least favourite books
fy hoff neu fy nghas lyfrau [3]
Geraint's five most favourite and least favourite books
Var A:
pump hoff lyfr Geraint a’i bump cas lyfr19 [1]
pum hoff lyfr G a’i pum cas lyfr (?) 20 [2]
Var B:
pum hoff lyfr a chas lyfr Geraint [5]
X2: in my idiolect I never use this way of saying favourite and least favourite; I would
say: y llyfr dwi’n ei hoffi/licio fwyaf a’r llyfr dwi’n ei gasáu fwyaf.
19
X1: "*pum hoff a chas lyfr Geraint is ungrammatical for me. *?pum hoff a phum cas
lyfr Geraint is distinctly odd."
20
X2's preferred translation is y pum llyfr mae G yn eu hoffi fwyaf a’r pum mae’n eu hoffi
lleiaf ("I don’t use ‘cas’ in this way myself").
Var B:
8.
9.
pum(p) hoff a chas lyfr Geraint21 [3 4]
the five most favourite and least favourite books
Var A:
y pump hoff lyfr a’r pump cas lyfr [1]
y 5 hoff lyfr a’r 5 cas lyfr (??)22 [2]
Var B:
y pum hoff lyfr a chas lyfr [5]
Var C:
y pum(p) hoff a chas lyfr23 [3 4]
my five most favourite and least favourite books24
Var A:
fy mhump hoff lyfr a ’mhump cas lyfr [1]
Var B:
fy mhum hoff lyfr a chas lyfr [5]
Var C:
fy mhum(p) hoff a chas lyfr25 [3 4]
X3: 10-11 again better than 7-9
10. Geraint's five most favourite or least favourite books
pum hoff neu gas lyfr Geraint [3]
11. the five most favourite or least favourite books
y pum hoff neu gas lyfr [3]
12. my five most favourite or least favourite books
fy mhum hoff neu gas lyfr [3]
Comments on this section:
X1: Again, I don’t think there’s much difference in the way ‘a’ and ‘neu’ behave.
X3: I am very uncomfortable with these examples. In fact I broke off earlier, and put the
whole thing aside as I was so uneasy with these examples and they didn't feel right.
The and examples are very odd. They or examples a bit better - I can think of plausible
contexts for them.
21
X4 pump.
X2: "sounds odd to me, but what is odd is use of ‘hoff’ and ‘cas’ as adjectives. I tend
not to use them in this way."
23
X4 pump.
24
X2 paraphrases: y 5 llyfr dwi’n eu hoffi fwyaf a’r 5 dwi’n eu hoffi lleiaf.
25
X4 pump.
22
Section 5
1.
every group and artist
pob grŵp ac artist [1 2 3 4 5]
2.
the different animals and birds
y gwahanol anifeiliaid ac adar26 [1 3]
3.
the main journals and newspapers of Wales
prif gylchgronau a phapurau Cymru [1]
prif gyfnodolion a phapurau newydd Cymru [2]
prif gylchgronau a phapurau newyddion Cymru [3]
y prif gofnodolion a phapurau newydd Cymreig [4alt]
prif gofnodoliad a phapurau newydd Cymru [4alt]
prif gylchgronau a phapurau newydd Cymru [5]
4.
those old chairs and tables
yr hen gadeiriau a byrddau/bordydd ’na/yna/hyn27 [1 2 3]
5.
those old men and women
yr hen ddynion a menywod/men’wod/gwragedd ’na/yna/hyn28 [1]
6.
those old Greeks and Romans
yr hen Roegiaid a Rhufeiniaid (yna)29 [1 2 3]
7.
the old customs and traditions of the Welsh countryside
hen arferion a thraddodiadau cefn gwlad Cymru [1 3]
hen arferion a thraddodiadau y wlad [2]
8.
9.
10.
11.
every group or artist
the different animals or birds
the main journals or newspapers of Wales
those old chairs or tables
yr hen gadeiriau neu’r hen fyrddau hyn [4; only translated 11/12 here]
12. those old men or women
yr hen ddynion neu’r hen wragedd hyn [4; only translated 11/12 here]
13. those old Greeks or Romans
14. the old customs or traditions of the Welsh countryside
X2+X4+X5 postpose gwahanol (yr anifeiliaid a’r adar gwahanol).
X2+X3 byrddau; X1 bordydd. — X1 'na; X2 yna; X3 hyn.
28
X1 men'wod; X2 menywod; X3 gwragedd. — X1 'na; X2 yna; X3 hyn.
29
X1+X3 inadvertently omit yna (vel sim.).
26
27
15. my five favourite books and films
fy mhum(p) hoff lyfr a ffilm30 [1 2 3 5]
fy mhump hoff lyfrau a ffilmiau [4; PL sic!]
16. the five main towns and cities
y pum(p) prif dref a dinas31 [(2) 3 5]
y pump prif drefi a dinasoedd [4; PL sic!]
17. Geraint's five main books and articles
pum prif lyfr ac erthygl Geraint32 [1 2 3 4 5]
18. my five favourite books or films
19. the five main towns or cities
20. Geraint's five main books or articles
Comments on this section:
X3: 8-14 seem to behave the same as 1-7.
Another meaning of 'hen' is 'dear' as in phrases like 'hen blant bach', where the literal
meaning is clearly not relevant. I don't think I would coordinate such phrases, as the
secondary 'dear' meaning would be lost. Like English 'silly old thing'.
hen blant bach drwg
hen gathod gwirion
*? hen blant a chathod drwg / gwirion
I find 15-17 and 18-20 a bit odd.
There would be a lexical problem with 16 / 19 over repeating 'prif', in that 'prif ddinas'
means 'capital city'. You can't have 5 of them in any country!
X5 mhum; X1+X3 mhump; X2 pum (sic!). — X2: "this means 5 in total; otherwise has
to be fy pum hoff lyfr a fy pum hoff ffilm"; so 16.
31
X5 pum; X3 pump.
32
X3 llyfr. — X1 forgets the numeral (y prif drefi a dinasoedd) — X2 forgets the article
(pum brif dref a dinas).
30
Section 6
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
Geraint's five books
pum llyfr Geraint33 [1 2 3 4 5]
the five books
y pum (l)lyfr [1 2 3 4 5] {check llyfr/lyfr}
my five books
fy mhum llyfr [1 2 3 4 5]
these five books
y pum(p) llyfr ’ma/yma/hyn34 [1]
y pum llyfr hwn [4]
five books and film
pum llyfr a ffilm35 [(1) 2alt 3 5]
pump o lyfrau a ffilmiau [2alt 3alt 4]
the five books and films
y pum(p) llyfr a ffilm36 [2 3 4 5]
my five books and films
fy mhum(p) llyfr a ffilm37 [2 3 4 5]
these five books and films
y pum llyfr yma a’r ffilmiau [2]
y pum(p) llyfr a ffilm yma/hyn38 [(??2) 3 5]
[?] y pump o lyfrau ac o ffilmiau hyn39 [4]
Geraint's five books and films
pum llyfr a ffilm Geraint [2 3(...pump...) 4 5]
10. five books or films
pum llyfr neu pump ffilm [2]
pump llyfr neu ffilm [4]
11. my five books or films
fy mhum llyr a’m pump ffilm [2]
fy mhump llyfr neu ffilm [4]
12. the five books or films
y pum llyfr yma neu’r pump ffilm yma [2]
y pum llyfr neu ffilm [4]
33
X3 pum(p); X2: "pump o lyfrau G = something different = five of his books".
X1 'ma (hyn "formal"); X2 yma; X3 pum(p); hyn/yma; X5 hyn.
35
X3 pump. — X1 translates y pum llyfr a ffilm, adding the article here.
36
X3 pump; X4 expands: y pum llyfr a ffilm (gorau dwi wedi eu darllen a gweld eleni
yw…).
37
X3+X4 mhump.
38
X3 pump, yma; X5 pum, hyn. — X2: "Y pum llyfr a ffilm yma sounds odd".
39
X4: "but sounds slightly strange".
34
13. these five books or films
y pum llyfr yma neu’r pump ffilm yma [2]
y pum llyfr neu ffilm hwn [4]
14. Geraint's five books or films
pum llyfr neu pump ffilm G [2]
pum llyfr neu ffilm Geraint [4]
Comments on this section:
X3: 1: The two types of expression would not mean the same.
pump llyfr Geraint - he has only 5
pump o lyfrau Geraint - he has lots and these are 5 of them
2-4: I don't think you can use 'pump o lyfrau' with a definite article or related items such
as possessives and demonstratives. This is true also for 5-9.
I am not terribly comfortable with any of these, though I expect I would use them if
necessary. I might reword things and in stead of (1) for instance use this or a similar
form:
y pump llyfr sydd gan Geraint
I realise I am being inconsistent over the use of pum / pump. I find that I tend to use pump
regardless of what follows unless I am being very careful. Probably a reflection of normal
informal usage.
Section 7
1. pump o lyfrau a ffilmiau
a. ten items (five books + five films)
Pts: 5 [1]
Pts: 3 [4]
Pts: 1 [2 3]
Pts: 0 [5]
b. five items (some of them books, some of them films)
Pts: 5 [1 2 5]
Pts: 4 [3]
Pts: 3 [4]
2. 125 o lyfrau a ffilmiau
a. 250 items (125 books + 125 films)
Pts: 5 [1]
Pts: 2 [4]
Pts: 1 [3]
Pts: 0 [2 5]
b. 125 items (some of them books, some of them films)
Pts: 5 [1 2 5]
Pts: 4 [3 4]
3. pump o drefi a dinasoedd
a. ten places (five towns + five cities)
Pts: 5 [1]
Pts: 1 [3 4]
Pts: 0 [2 5]
b. five places (some of them towns, some of them cities)
Pts: 5 [1 2 4 5]
Pts: 4 [3]
4. 125 o drefi a dinasoedd
a. 250 places (125 towns + 125 cities)
Pts: 5 [1]
Pts: 1 [3]
Pts: 0 [2 4 5]
b. 125 places (some of them towns, some of them cities)
Pts: 5 [1 2 4 5]
Pts: 4 [3]
5. pump o fechgyn a merched
a. ten children (five boys + five girls)
Pts: 5 [1]
Pts: 2 [4]
Pts: 0 [2 3 5]
b. five children (some of them boys, some of them girls)
Pts: 5 [1 2 3 5]
Pts: 4 [4]
6. 125 o fechgyn a merched
a. 250 children (125 boys + 125 girls)
Pts: 5 [1]
Pts: 2 [4]
Pts: 0 [2 3 5]
b. 125 children (some of them boys, some of them girls)
Pts: 5 [1 2 3 5]
Pts: 4 [4]
Comments on this section:
X1: Both readings are accessible for me in all these examples. Or do you want to know
which reading comes to mind first?
X3: For me the (b) use is normal, but I could imagine some people having the (a) use.
In (5) and (6) this would not be possible - the phrase is normal usage, meaning children
regardless of sex.
X4: Ambiguous phrases such as ‘pump o fechgyn a merched’ are likely to be avoided.
More likely to use ‘pump o ferchgyn a pump o ferched’ for 10 individuals, o’r ‘pump o
blant (children)’ when referring to a mixture of 5.
When the number is large (e.g. 125 towns and cities), it is inferred that the author is
referring to a mixture of towns and cities. The exception is when a figure such as 100 is
used. In this case however, a phrase such as ‘100 tref a 100 dinas fwyaf y byd’ (the
world’s 100 largest towns and 100 largest cities) is likely to be used in order to avoid
confusion.
Generally speaking (as the marks that I have awarded suggest), most of the above
sentences are ambiguous. Such constructions are therefore likely to be avoided.