EXECUTIVE INTERVIEW
TALENT BUYER DIRECTOR
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LouisTMGMessina
/ The Messina Group
L
ouis Messina was reflecting on his days at his company,
PACE Concerts – one of the first in the United States to
promote nationally.
“I’m kind of the devil, honestly.”
If there’s one thing anyone knows
about Louie in addition to being
a down-to-earth fellow, it’s he’s refreshingly straight forward. PACE
was the first company to build
outdoor venues across the U.S.,
but with it came an unfortunate
byproduct: the facility fee. Louie
confessed to being the madman
inventor.
Why did PACE start charging
a facility fee? Why not?
“There shall be a facility fee!”
Messina says, putting on his best
imitation of a deity. He chuckles.
“What’s a facility fee? Well, you
know, it’s for the facility! A facility
should have a fee! Everybody gets
a fee, right?
“Basically, we were stealing
$2.50 a ticket from the artists and
from the fans. We were saying, ‘But
the ticket’s only $59.50!’ We added
$2.50 and then, of course, we made
a deal with the ticketing company
and added additional money with
the service charge.”
But times have changed and
Messina knows what he unleashed.
A $60 ticket nowadays is actually
a $90 ticket.
Messina, currently running his
own company under the umbrella
of AEG, has long been associated
with country music – and has the
ACM awards to prove it – but he’s
spent many more years in rock
’n’ roll booking acts like AC/DC
into 200-seaters and creating the
Texxas Jam stadium shows, which
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would fill up a day with acts like
Journey, Van Halen and Aerosmith.
There’s even a 2007 documentary
film about the event.
He sort of fell into country
music promotion but came to
rule it. As he said, he is one of
the second generation of promoters, the one that followed Bill
Graham and Barry Fey, the one
that perfected the rock “event.”
That gave him a distinct advantage in the traditional country
music business, where he brought
in a bag full of rock promotion
tricks – marketing campaigns
beyond the local newspaper advert,
a carnival atmosphere and the
famed rock backstage area. He
also provided his balls-to-thewall attitude.
It all added up to the George
Strait Music Festival and the events
seen at every Kenny Chesney tour
stop.
When did you first get the
music bug?
I was about 8 years old when my
dad and I went to see Elvis Presley
at the Municipal Auditorium in
New Orleans. I remember the
energy in the air, the screams.
I didn’t know what was going on,
but I knew it was something special.
My dad was a boxing promoter
but that didn’t lead me to music
promotion. As a kid growing up in
New Orleans, I’d go to every show
that came to town. In my early
teens I was a huge James Brown
fan and when he came to town
there would be this white speck
in the audience – just me and my
five white buddies.
I started promoting local bands
in high school. They were dance
concerts, basically. I didn’t go to
college; I went to work at a radio
station selling advertising so I
could start making connections
in the music business.
I got into promotion when I
finally found some backers, some
clients of mine who owned a
record store back in New Orleans.
Joe Sullivan, a promoter in Nashville, came down to New Orleans
and we co-promoted a concert
with Curtis Mayfield and B.B.
King. It was November 3, 1972. It
was my first professional concert
and I hate to keep on repeating
the story because I’ve repeated
it for 30 years. It was a disaster.
It sold out but I had to cancel it
because they didn’t show up because of weather and I had a riot
on my hands.
Joe and I started co-promoting
shows on the Gulf Coast. Beaver
Productions was in New Orleans
at the time and I basically started
getting everything they didn’t
want. I created events like Dr.
John’s Mardi Gras Mambo, right
before Mardi Gras season would
start. I did Wet Willie every
New Year’s Eve for three or four
years.
So how did this lead you to
PACE?
I met Allen Becker in 1975 with
the grand opening of the Louisiana Superdome. Allen’s company,
PACE, had the grand opening
rights to the Superdome and he
booked all kinds of events, from
the Grambling-Southern football
game to Ringling Bros. to George
Wein’s jazz festival to Bob Hope’s
variety show.
The only thing he didn’t have
was a rock show. Eddie Sapir, a
judge who was also an attorney,
represented my company and
PACE. He put the two of us together and we did the Allman
Brothers in September 1975.
It was successful but, once
again, somewhat of a disaster.
There was a misunderstanding
between Phil Walden, us and
my dear friend Alex Hodges. Alex
mentioned the story in his [“Lessons Learned” feature in Pollstar]
but he kind of got the story backwards. They were the ones who
totally screwed us over. Anyway,
Alex and I are still friends.
Anyway, PACE was in the business for 10 years doing Supercross
and the Houston Boat Show and
Evel Knievel thrill shows. After
the Allman Brothers show, Allen
called me and said, “If you ever
want to do concerts in Houston,
give me a call.”
But I was still broke after the
Allman Brothers show. I called
Allen and suggested forming a
TALENT BUYER DIRECTOR
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company with him. The deal I
made with him was just pay my
bills and I will bet on the come.
He and I never had a contract
(until we decided to sell to SFX).
He said yes, and I packed up my
family and we drove to Houston
and started PACE Concerts.
Our first show was November 1,
1975, with The Who. They were
the grand opening for the Summit back then. The second show
was ZZ Top. The third show was
Willie Nelson. The fourth show
was Cat Stevens. The fifth show
was Paul McCartney & Wings
and then, after that, it went downhill.
It was the same story. There
were so many concert promoters
in Texas and I was the last man
on the totem pole. I had to start
doing shows all over again, doing shows that basically nobody
else wanted. And here I am, even
though we had a booking agreement with the Summit, it was
such an expensive building and
everybody was used to playing
the Sam Houston Coliseum here.
The Coliseum was 12,000
seats but it was dirt cheap. The
Summit was a newer building
with suites and facility fees and
parking charges, and people
back then weren’t willing to pay
that kind of money to buildings.
So we just started chipping away
and, before you knew it, we became king of the hill in Texas.
That’s me up to PACE.
How did PACE get into the
unprecedented decision to buy
real estate across the U.S.?
I remember Allen Becker and
I walking on the grounds of the
Cotton Bowl around 1980 or
so, and he just said to me, “You
know, Louie, promoting concerts really sucks. First of all,
I don’t know how you deal with
it, with the attitudes. One good
thing about motorcycles: they
don’t talk back to you. If you get
upset with them, you just kick
them over. In your business, it’s
ruthless.”
He went on to say, “Unless
we can control our own destiny
and own the venues, own the
popcorn, the peanuts, parking
and beer, we’ll never survive.”
That’s when Brian Becker
entered the scene. Brian had
just graduated from Stanford
and he came to work under
Miles Wilkins in the theatrical
department, and he started helping us develop amphitheatres.
We built the first one in Nashville
and then we joint-ventured with
MCA, when Irving Azoff was
running it, and built Dallas and
Atlanta together. We built 13
amphitheatres around the country.
So we’re the ones that broke
the mold – just going and becoming one of the first national
companies, along with Concerts
West. But we were building amphitheatres all over the country;
we were sort of the carpetbaggers
(laughs). We came into everybody’s backyard and basically
took over the concert business.
We became, probably, the top
concert business in the United
States and that kind of leads up
to the SFX acquisition.
Before we go into your dark
days, could you please elaborate on the Texxas Jam?
EXECUTIVE INTERVIEW
and Mike Evans, who now
runs sports and entertainment
at SMG, were the heads of my security in 1978. Bob later bought
Avalon Attractions with Brian
Murphy, and he and Irving Azoff
were partners, but he and Mike
basically got into the music business through doing security.
It was crazy. We didn’t know
what we were doing. David
Krebs, who managed Aerosmith
and Ted Nugent, was my partner.
We did this Texas Battle of the
Bands and we had all these people judging. We had AC/DC – it
was their first time in the United
States and they headlined these
local bands in what was a dirt
coliseum behind the Cotton
Bowl. We were shooting from
the hip and we didn’t know what
we were doing but we did it. We
did, like, 13 of them.
SFX bought PACE in the late
’90s and you’ve been candid
about how unhappy you were
working there.
Well, everybody lost focus of
what we’re all about. It’s a people
business but it just became corporate and it was all about numbers. Everybody became booking
machines.
We sold our souls. They took
our spirit away.
I wasn’t allowed to make a
decision on my own. It used
to be, when Peter Mensch and
Cliff Burnstein started and they
had Metallica and their young
bands, we’d say, “What do we
need to do for them in Texas?
What do we need to do to break
Metallica?”
Then all that went away. All
of our friends looked at us as the
enemy. The agents looked at us
as the enemy. And the personal
relationship side went away.
I used to drive up, park in
my space, take a deep breath
and get in the elevator. I remember one night at a concert, I was
walking into a room with Eddie
Van Halen and because of the
people in the room we immediately felt the life get sucked out
of us. Eddie turned to me and
said that some people are just
“vibe suckers.” I felt the same
thing every morning when that
elevator door opened. Whatever
good vibe I had in me just got
sucked away.
They wouldn’t let us put pictures on the wall. I used to call it
the Federal Building. I hated being there. I just hated being there.
And there were so many bookers.
The first Texxas Jam, in 1978,
put me on the map. That and
the Rolling Stones. Bill Graham
gave me five cities on the Rolling
Stones tour.
The most we ever had at the
Jam was right at 92,000 tickets.
I think Boston and Deep Purple
headlined that year. The first year,
1978, we sold out at 81,000 tickets
with Aerosmith and Ted Nugent
as headliners. We had the Who’s
Who of the music industry on that
show. You name a band – from
Van Halen to Journey to Heart –
everybody was on that show.
What was “security” like in
those days?
We created a force. Bob Geddes,
who started out as a security guy,
THE NAMES OF THE COMPANIES HAVE CHANGED but the participants still smile. A 2003
snapshot at a Dixie Chicks show captures Louie at the First Union Center (now
Wachovia Center) with Comcast-Spectacor’s Peter Luukko, Clear Channel
Entertainment’s Larry Magid, Comcast-Spectacor’s John Page and Clear Channel’s
Charlie Walker.
2008/2009 Edition
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EXECUTIVE INTERVIEW
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LOUIE with one of his top clients, George Strait.
Everybody was going for the
same act. I would make a bid and
somebody from another office,
within the same company, would
outbid me.
It seemed like because I am
who I am they were trying to
phase me out. I was getting less
and less authority and that’s
why I went into the country
music world. I created Louie
World.
When was the transition?
Was it while at Clear Channel?
Yeah, yeah. Well, I always had
a relationship with country
music. From the late ’70s to early
’80s, I used to do a lot of Willie
Nelson tours. Willie, Waylon,
Kris Kristofferson – I did all the
outlaw country bands. Emmylou
Harris. And I had a relationship with George Strait since
the early PACE days. That relationship kind of went away
but I always stayed in touch
with the Strait camp. And I
created, along with Irv Woolsey
and Danny O’Brian, the first
George Strait Music Festival in
San Antonio. So I was starting
to do some country while I was
at SFX.
And it was a lot of fun because I was basically running
my show again. Because nobody
knew what the hell I was doing
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(laughs). Nobody knew what
country music was. When I
came into country music, it was
like Louie’s Rolling Thunder
Review.
We did the first show in
San Antonio with George and
three years later we put the
George Strait Music Festival
on tour. We toured for four
years playing stadiums all over
the country. Looking back, we
had the Who’s Who of country
music: Tim McGraw, Dixie
Chicks, Faith Hill, Brad Paisley,
Alan Jackson, Kenny Chesney.
That’s where my relationship
with Kenny started.
As time went on, I just decided
I could not be at Clear Channel
anymore.
I read through my contract
and I thought I had a one-year
non-compete. They thought
they sentenced me to life without parole. I was finally able
to compromise. I did a twoyear non-compete but I was
able to carve out five country
acts, and those were George
Strait, Kenny Chesney, Tim
McGraw, Dixie Chicks and
Faith Hill.
John Meglen and I have always
been best buddies. When he and
Paul Gongaware started Concerts
West he said I should go work
with them. I said maybe down
the road.
Then John got involved
with AEG. I knew Tim Leiweke’s
brother when he ran the hockey
team in Houston. So I went out
and met Tim, and he and I became, like, best friends in 10 minutes.
I was planning to go to work
with them but Clear Channel
sent them a letter saying that if
they continue to have any more
dialogue with me, they would
sue. Needless to say, Tim did not
want a lawsuit. So I started TMG/
The Messina Group. I just went
out and promoted George Strait,
Dixie Chicks, Tim McGraw and
started working with Kenny
Chesney from the beginning.
So I was doing pretty damned
good for a guy who couldn’t
work, who’s handcuffed!
After my official non-compete
was over I went back to Tim and
I sold half the company to AEG
and the rest is history.
It appears you’re pretty independent for an AEG company.
were definite rumblings of an
Academy Award nomination.
I might have just missed it.
Probably got too cocky at
some after-party.
Yeah, humped a director’s wife
or something.
You say you brought the
rock ‘n’ roll world to country
music. That sounds like Kenny
Chesney, who will tailgate with
his fans.
Yeah, he always does that, in the
stadiums or the amphitheatres.
He’ll get in his ’gater, he and his
buddies, and go out and just hang
out with the crowd. Kenny’s a
rock star who sings his version of
country music, but he’s a people’s
guy. He’s a huge Van Halen fan,
a huge Bruce Springsteen fan,
a huge Aerosmith fan. He’d ask
me to introduce him to these
people when no one knew who
Kenny was. I introduced him to
Oh, I’m totally independent.
And I need it that way. If Tim
Leiweke and Randy Phillips
feel they have to manage me
they made a huge mistake
(laughs). We all do what
we’re supposed to do. And
I just do what I’m supposed
to do. Tim and Randy know
they don’t need to waste their
time managing my company
but we still work very closely
together on projects.
We understand you’re a
star of the movie “FM.”
I’m a star! They discovered
me! Nah, what happened was
they were filming the movie
and at the time I was promoting Linda Ronstadt at the
Summit. They wanted to film
a segment of Linda’s show
and I helped them organize
it. They gave me a bit part as
a stage manager. I had lines
and everything! I’m shocked,
shocked, that I was not discovered from that movie. There
KENNY CHESNEY HANGS with Louie backstage
at the Houston Livestock Show & Rodeo
February 27, 2002.
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Springsteen, I introduced him
to Hagar, to a lot of people. Now,
everybody wants to get to know
him!
want to emulate him. They have
the same vibe, energy and vision
as him and, beyond that, they
really are just great people.
So exactly how does one make
a concert an event?
What can rock music learn
from country music?
It’s like what we did at the Texxas
Jam. We had second stages out in
the parking lots. We had games,
we had rides, we had fortune tellers, body piercers. We took that
kind of approach with Kenny,
both in small halls and amphitheatres.
You don’t see that as much
in rock. Festivals like Bonnaroo,
ACL and Coachella create a
world outside of the music,
but it’s really Strait and Chesney
who created this and now a
lot of bands are beginning to
copy it.
Every band now has a “vibe
room,” which started with
George. Everybody used to
gather in the tent after the show
and do stupid stuff. Now Kenny
has the vibe room and every
country artist on the road has
the vibe room.
We have the backstage decorated – it’s just a fun, fun, fun
environment. And the audience
picks up on that vibe that’s in
the parking lot and the backstage. As Kenny says, “For the
next two hours leave your problems at the door.” If he makes
a mistake, he makes a mistake.
He doesn’t throw a guitar. He
just sits onstage and laughs at
himself or his band.
So many people went to
school on Kenny it’s unbelievable. Every act that plays with
Chesney is a headliner, basically,
because that’s how he treats everybody. There are no boundaries. It’s Kenny’s world of course,
but the opening acts feel like
they’re the stars, so when they
hit the stage, they’re full of all
this energy.
Same with Sugarland. Hopefully, I’m beginning to get involved with Sugarland, and they
went to school on Kenny. They
saw how he operates and they
Loyalty. Loyalty, that’s the fucking
difference. We’re talking with
Strait and Chesney about where
we’re going to be next year and
the year after. It’s the same thing
Brian O’Connell has with Rascal
Flatts: It’s loyalty.
I toured with a major act last
year. I’m not going to mention
names. It’s an act few people
believed in before I got involved
with them and we proceeded to
sell out shows across the country.
But when the tour was over, it
was over. The other company
comes in and makes a huge,
huge offer.
After all my work, doing
everything I promised to do,
all I got out of it was the right
to match. Even though my style
of doing business is that I’m partners with the band and a nickel
is a nickel and there are no “skeletons in the closet” – if you want
to read between those lines – it
didn’t matter. It just broke my
heart. But it’s just time to move
on. It’s a drag, they’re going to
work with Live Nation and we
put a lot of effort into them and,
you know, got left at the alter.
Well, we got married but it was
a quickie divorce. Hopefully,
one day they will come back
to the “A Team.”
The point was made at the
CIC several times that profits
are going up, but ticket counts
are dropping and the audience
is disappearing.
You said it: The average attendance keeps on going down and
down and down. But the grosses
keep going up. Last year The Police sold out instantly with a high
ticket price. No disrespect to the
Police; they’re great, but I think
they’re not as strong this time
EXECUTIVE INTERVIEW
LOUIE JOINS IN THE “STADIUM TOURS – DEAD OR ALIVE?” panel at the Concert
Industry Consortium in Los Angeles in February 2008. L-R: Dolphins Stadium’s
Bruce Schulze, Heinz Field’s Jimmy Sacco, Louis, Live Nation Touring’s Brad
Wavra, Apregan Group’s Jeff Apregan and SMG Stadiums’ Shea Guinn.
around. Kenny’s keeping prices
low and that’s why he’s going to
be around for 25 years.
But it’s hard when people offer
you so much fucking money.
But Kenny Chesney and George
Strait will be around as long as
they want to because the people
are going to respect them. We’re
not going to outprice ourselves.
You know the expression, “You
can lead a horse to water but you
can’t make him drink”? We’re
leading the audience somewhere,
but we’re taking the water away.
I’m starting to see resistance
with some of the younger bands,
too, when it comes to pricing.
What else can rock learn
from country?
I remember meeting Clint
Higham, who’s Kenny’s manager,
along with Dale Morris, back
when they were out with George
Strait.
And the advice I gave them
back then was, “You’ve got to
go out there and build a fan base.
You’ve got to go out there and
play venues with your name on
the tickets. You can’t be playing
next to the town fair or some
yippy-kay-oh thing where there’s
a wet T-shirt contest next to you.
You’ve got to become a real artist.
You’ve got to believe in yourself.”
And I told them that if you’re
willing to bet on you, I’m willing
to bet on you.
So Kenny and Clint started
booking 1,500-seat rooms, 3,000seat rooms, and they started
chipping away. They opened for
Tim McGraw and then we went
out and headlined.
But there are too many country artists who take the easy
money. They get a hit record and
all of a sudden they’re a $35,000
act because they can get it playing fairs, festivals and places like
Billy Bob’s. And that’s the reason
there’s only a handful – maybe a
dozen artists – that can sell hard
tickets, if that. And look at smart
artists like Sugarland, playing
4,000 to 6,000 seaters right now
and selling out and leaving tickets behind. We don’t open more
seats. If it’s 5,000, that’s what we’re
going to sell.
Other bands can make a shitload more money short term but,
long term, a lot of these people
just become casino acts. Back in
the old days it was all about the
fan base. Not many artists have
fan bases now. That’s why you see
artists come and go so fast.
Arena shows, stadium shows,
call them what you will –
what’s the future hold for
the major concert event?
2008/2009 Edition
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Glen Rose
EXECUTIVE INTERVIEW
BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN VISITS with Louie and Kenny Chesney on Chesney’s tour bus
during the 2007 outing. Louie introduced Chesney to Springsteen, one of his heroes,
years earlier.
I was interviewed at South by
Southwest and the question was
asked of me: “What’s the difference between theatre shows and
arena shows?” I said, “About
15,000 seats.”
Come on. There’s nothing like
arena rock. There’s nothing like
walking into an arena or a stadium, full with 15,000 or 18,000
or 80,000 people. If you’re just
looking for the “quality” of it,
go buy a DVD and listen to it in
surround sound and watch it on
a flat-screen TV. But it’s all about
the gathering; it’s all about the
event. That’s what arena shows
do and that’s what stadium shows
do.
The other question was, “What
makes a stadium act?” Well, the
answer is a band that can sell
50,000 or 60,000 tickets.
There’s nothing like a stadium
when it’s rockin’. It’s electrifying.
That will never go away.
So you’re saying there are
acts out there that will replace
the current arena attractions?
Oh sure! Come on! Look at
Coldplay. Look at Radiohead.
Oasis. In country music, look at
Sugarland, Carrie Underwood
and Taylor Swift. People have
been saying there are no new acts
coming along since I started in
the music business. The question
is, How many acts are going to
stick? But if you go down the list
there are a lot of headliners that
aren’t from the late ’70s or early
’80s.
But remember, when it
comes to new acts, it’s about
nurturing. And this goes back
to the old-time way of promoting concerts, where everybody
had their regions. And by the
way, I believe in a national promoter because I can do a better
job than a local promoter when
I’m involved with an act. When
an act and a promoter are on
the same page, we do a better
job. And we live and breathe
that act.
And I gotta say, guys like
Danny Zelisko or my friend Bob
Roux – they grind it out, man.
They’re good promoters but, unfortunately, they’re forced to push
numbers. They don’t have time
to promote. How can you promote when you’re dealing with
40 acts a month? How much time
can you really spend on an act?
I know, for instance, if I was a
manager … wait, I am a manager.
I manage my son’s band, Electric
Touch! Let’s see what I can do
with them. They’re playing
Coachella this weekend.
But again, if I was a manager,
I would pick a handful of people
I want to work with and just have
everybody get on the same page.
Everybody has the same focus,
same end goal. But you can’t do
that when one buyer out in California is buying the whole tour
and basically shoveling it off to
the regional offices.
Been there, done that. I’ve
heard marketing people when
they’re on the phone, turning
pages, “Uh, OK, we’re doing soand-so, what’s that date again?
We’re playing our hometown
when again?” They’re overworked, underpaid and they
don’t have any emotion anymore
because they’ve got too much
on their plate. Anyone who tells
you differently, I’ll call them a
liar.
What’s your opinion on 360
deals?
I think that if you can pull it off,
why not? But you need the right
infrastructure. I’m a concert promoter but if I had Clive Davis
working with me, all of a sudden,
I’m in the record business!
It’s like anything else: you’ve
got to get pros. You can’t do it just
to have control. It’s very rare for
a record company, promoter and
the manager to talk to each other.
They’re doing one thing, we’re
doing another – the publicist is
out doing their own thing – and
it’s very rare that we’re all on the
same page.
There needs to be one force
of energy again. But if you
create a 360 deal just to lock
up the bands, it’s going to be a
disaster.
Originally, with Kenny
Chesney, everybody – the promoter, the manager, the outside
publicist, the record company
publicist, the sales force, the promotion team – sat down and got
on the same page. And last week
Kenny opened his tour in Connecticut. We sold out two shows
at Mohegan Sun. We did something like 22,000 tickets and it
was an amazing show, the best
show he’s ever done.
When we were riding back
to the hotel I turned to Clint
(Higham) and said, “You know
what? We’ve got to go back to
the basics again. We’ve got to
go back to where we started.
We’ve got to get everybody to
see what Kenny’s about again.
Everybody thinks Kenny’s the
800-pound gorilla and he’ll take
care of himself – so we can’t get
complacent.”
That night, when Kenny did
the biggest show he’s ever done,
Clint sent out 27 e-mails to rally
the troops.
Keep in touch with Bob Roux?
I hired Bob at PACE. He was
basically a middle agent and, as
a matter of fact, he worked under
Bruce Kapp (this interview was
conducted soon after Kapp passed
away). Then I gave Bob the lead
rope and he went for it. And he’s
done very well. I’m very proud of
Bob. He’s a dear friend and I wish
he was working with me again. I
miss my people. That’s one thing
I do miss by being on my own –
the Bob Rouxs and the Steve
Lawlors of the world who were
such a part of PACE and such a
part of my life. But Bob and I talk
all the time.
Anything else?
My parting thought is we’re
in the entertainment business
and we need to get back to where
we started. I know it’s all about
money but money will be there
if everyone just gets on the same
page and if we get a little more
loyalty and trust back in this
business.
When I grew up, concerts were
a lifestyle. Even if they weren’t
your favorite band, you still went.
I think we need to make live music a lifestyle again and the way
to do that is cater to the audience,
the people who buy the tickets.
Those are my parting words.
Joe Reinartz
34
2008/2009 Edition