ABA Senior Lawyers Division
Women Trailblazers in the Law
ORAL HISTORY
of
PEGGY A. QUINCE
Interviewer: Christine David Graves
Dates of Interviews:
July 29, 2009
September 21, 2009
September 29, 2009
THIRD INTERVIEW
September 29. 2009
Ms. Graves:
Ok, this is Chrissy Davis Graves again with Chief Justice Quince. This
is our third and final interview and today is September 29, 2009. Ok,
Justice Quince, I think we last left off with finishing up your tenure at
the Attorney General's Office. Before we start with your appointment
to the Second District Court of Appeal, let's talk about your family,
personal life a little bit. How long had you been practicing by the time
you had your first child, Peggy?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, it couldn't be more than a little over a year because I finished law
school in December of '74, actually, and my degree says '75 and
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worked and Peggy was born in '77. (Laughter) So I had been out of
law school for a couple of years and working for a couple of years
before Peggy was born.
Ms. Graves:
And how old were you when you had Peggy?
Chief Justice Quince: Oh, I was on the verge of 30, I would say 29, but in a few months I
actually turned 30, yep.
Ms. Graves:
Did you work full time?
Chief Justice Quince:
I did. I worked full time. Well, you know, quite frankly, it did not
affect me as much as it did some women, because my father lived with
us. I guess I didn't tell you. The story of when I was at home with a
baby for several weeks and just sitting around talking with my Dad, and
he asked me when was I going to go back to work. And I said, oh,
probably in a few weeks, I need time to find someone to take care of the
baby, and so he says to me, what's wrong, you don't think I can take
care of the baby? And I said, "no, that isn't it, but you are retired, you
have worked hard all of your life. You don't need the stress of taking
care of a baby, and he said, "well, I'd like to take care of the baby and
he said to me, almost verbatim, "I worked all of my life and I never had
a chance to see my children grow up except from afar, and so I would
like to see my grandbaby grow up."
Ms. Graves:
That is awesome. So he knew he wanted to move . . ?
Chief Justice Quince: No, he actually had already moved with us, and he said he wanted to
take care of the baby, so that's what he did and not only did he take care
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of my baby, but I had a friend who had a baby a week later, and he took
care of both of them.
Ms. Graves:
Wow, you can't get any better than that!
Chief Justice Quince: Not only did he take care of both of them, he would go off for the
weekend and he would take the babies with him.
Ms. Graves:
That is awesome. What was a typical day back then as you were a new
mother and starting a new career?
Chief Justice Quince: You know, I think our day was pretty much the way a normal working
day was. I got up in the morning, I started out by breast-feeding the
baby and during the course of the day your breast milk is wreaking
havoc later. I'd work all day, and I would come home and feed the
baby. During the day my father would have given her a bottle, of
course. My husband and I cooked dinner, and it was really pretty much
a normal day, except I did not have the hassle of getting a little baby
ready, and taking her somewhere, or even having to have someone
come in and wait for them to get there before I leave. I could leave at
any time I wanted to because my dad was right there. And he was, quite
frankly, he was much better with the baby than I was. It was just
magnificent to see them together.
Ms. Graves:
How long did this go? How much longer did you live in D.C. at that
point?
Chief Justice Quince: Let's see. We moved to Florida maybe a year later in 1978. And when
we were getting ready to move to Florida. we told him that we were
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going to move to Florida, that Fred's mother was not well, and he was
perfectly free to move with us if he wanted to, but he didn't have to, and
he said "well, I have always wanted to live in Florida, so I think it's a
great idea." So he moved to Florida with us. He continued to take care
of the baby and it was while we were in Florida, actually in Bradenton,
but we transitioned into Tampa, that I had my second child, and he took
care of her, too.
Ms. Graves:
What year did you have your second child?
Chief Justice Quince:
1980, they are 3 years apart. Same month.
Ms. Graves:
Oh really? And you have two kids?
Chief Justice Quince:
I have two daughters, Peggy and Laura.
Ms. Graves:
How long did your father take care of them?
Chief Justice Quince:
He actually took care of them until he died in 1986, which was really a
very traumatic time for all of us. My husband and I were at work the
day he got sick. I mean he had been sick for a while. He had had a
triple by-pass, a valve replacement, but the day that he got sick and had
to go to the hospital and never returned, my children were home with
him and by that time, let's see, Peggy was the one who called 911, and
went outside in the yard to make sure that the 911 people came to the
right house and took care of all of that, so . . .
Ms. Graves:
That's a big responsibility for a 9-year old.
Chief Justice Quince:
Yeah, and then she called us and we went to the hospital, came home
and then we went to the hospital. My 6-year old, Laura, for several
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months afterwards was very distraught. Her teachers called me and we
had a conference because she was just sort of lethargic and not
responding well in school and one day she opened up enough to one of
the teachers and said "yes, she was still very upset 'cause she had lost
her best friend. So my husband and I talked about it and we were
considering taking her to see a counselor. But for one reason or another
we didn't get one right away and she then started, and the teacher
started reporting that she was back into the groove, and she was kind of
a talkative, chatty kid. So they were very concerned when she wasn't
doing that anymore, but she got back into it. But for a while she was
really upset that he wasn't there anymore. Then of course it was the
transition into taking them now to daycare situations.
Ms. Graves:
Can you kind of describe how your schedule changed at that point?
Chief Justice Quince:
You know, it's one of those situations, I always liked to go to work kind
of early, and they were both in a private school at the time -- a
monastery school. They had some early hours and some late hours at
the other end, so we would get them there at a time when we need to be
at work and then you had to pick them up by at least 6 o'clock. So
that's how we worked it out. Some days, my husband did, and some
days I did, just depending on what our schedules were. It was just so
different because before, even with after school activities, my father was
always there to pick them up directly after school or after whatever
activities they may have been involved in, so now my husband and I
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were trying to juggle and do these kinds of things. Even something as
simple as school trips, my father was always there to drive the kids on
school trips and now Fred and I had to find the time to do those things.
Because all the parents were suppose to take turns at least coming to
school activities, taking kids on field trips, and so we had to start
juggling our lives to be able to do those kinds of things, but luckily for
me I was working at the AG's Office, and it was a much more family
friendly environment, especially back in those days. So that certainly
helped a lot.
Ms. Graves:
And where was your husband working at that time? Did he still have
his own firm?
Chief Justice Quince: Yes. Let's see when we first moved to Tampa, he had been at the State
Attorney's Office in Bradenton and then he was transitioned into the
State Attorney's Office in Tampa. But I think at that point, he only
stayed another year or so, and so, yes, he had gone into private practice
with several other attorneys. He had more of a longer day, so I ended
up doing more of the coming home at regular hours.
Ms. Graves:
So, you shared the majority of it?
Chief Justice Quince: Right, we would get the children together in the morning together. You
know with two girls, you've got to do their hair every day and my
husband could do hair as well as I could, and we would both do
someone's hair. While he was making breakfast, I was normally
making sure that the kids got dressed and that their lunch was made.
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And so we shared that way. In the evenings, normally I was the one
who came home and started dinner, although quite frankly they much
preferred a dinner that he cooked. He was a much better cook than I
was. So basically, the days changed because even with something like
an after work activity, say a Bar meeting, when my father was alive, we
always knew we could go to any Bar activity and not have to worry
about getting a sitter. Then, of course, once my father died, those kind
of issues came up. And sometimes one of us would go and sometimes
both of us would go if we could get a sitter in time.
Ms. Graves:
Well you said that the AG's Office was family-friendly, do you recall
any issues you might have had as being a woman and a mother as
compared to men who were fathers?
Chief Justice Quince:
Not really, because you know it really was a matter of if you have leave
that you could take and if you had your work caught up. If you wanted
to use your leave because you wanted to be home with your children,
and I would always stay at Easter, take off a couple of day just so the
kids and I could do some things together. I mean, I wouldn't take a
whole week, but several days of a week. And I just don't recall that it
was ever, ever an issue at the AG's Office. It was really just a matter of
making sure that I did my work, and yes there were times when I
actually had to bring work home because I couldn't stay any later than
say 5:30 or quarter of 6:00, however, much time it took me to get to
pick them up by 6:00 pm. I would take work home with me. For the
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most part I would wait until after dinner was over and the kids were
bathed and doing their homework, or whatever the situation might be
that night before I would start any kind of work from the office, and that
was another great thing, because it was appellate work, it was the kind
of work that you could do at home. So, it was really great. And so my
husband never felt pressured to come home at any particular hour
because he knew I was in the kind of situation that I could be there.
Ms. Graves:
That's great. Did you guys take a lot of family vacations or travel a lot
when the kids were growing up?
Chief Justice Quince:
We traveled some, but I'll have to tell you my big secret. From the time
my younger child was about 2, until the older one got to be about 15,
every summer I would take them to my sister's and brother-in-law's and
they would be there for 6 weeks during the summer.
Ms. Graves:
By themselves?
Chief Justice Quince: Yeah, I wouldn't be there, my husband wouldn't be there. I had a sister
who lived in North Carolina. One who lived in D.C. And my brotherin-law lived in Maryland right outside D.C. and so I would take them to
my sister's house who lived in North Carolina and they would be with
her for a week or so, and then she would take them to my sister in D.C.
and my sister in D.C. would take them to my brother-in-law and I
would, at the end of 6 weeks go to one of their houses to pick the
children up. So my kids always had a great 6 weeks in the summer.
Gave us a wonderful break. But we would also take trips together and a
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lot of times it was Bar association things, or sorority, I'm still very
active in my sorority, so it may have been sorority. My sorority has a
national meeting every two years. And they have a regional meeting
every year, and so I might be taking them to some of those kinds of
things. The National Bar Association also has a national meeting every
year and so I would take them to those kinds of meetings. And so a lot
of the traveling we did really was a part of going to association
meetings.
Ms. Graves:
What do your daughters do now?
Chief Justice Quince:
The younger one, Laura, is an accountant and she lives in Baltimore.
Ms. Graves:
Okay.
Chief Justice Quince:
And the older one, actually, just finished law school this summer at St.
Thomas. And so I believe she's taking the Bar exam in February.
Ms. Graves:
I don't envy her.
Chief Justice Quince:
I told her for years, . . . when she first finished, and she's my older
child, she's 31 or something like that, and when she finished
undergraduate school, she wasn't sure what she wanted to do and she
worked and I always tried to tell her, don't think about going to law
school because I'm a lawyer and your father is a lawyer. You have to
go to law school for yourself. Law school is nothing to play with. Then
one summer three years ago, she and her sister were living together in
Orlando in an apartment together and she came to me and said, "Mom,
the younger one said "Mom, I have a new job, I'm moving to
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Baltimore." And the other one said, I'm moving to Miami to go to law
school. So, I said okay if that's what you want to do.
Ms. Graves:
Let's talk about your judicial career. When did you apply to the Second
District Court of Appeal.
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, I'm trying to think if it was 1992. I believe I applied for an
opening on the Second District Court of Appeal. And actually my name
was sent to the Governor along with 3 other names. But at that point the
statutes said you were only supposed to send 3 names, they had sent 4
names, and so when it was sent back to the committee my name got
chopped off. But then the next year, in 1993, there were 3 openings on
the District Court of Appeal. Someone had retired and the Legislature
had given the Second District two additional judgeships. So I applied
again, and was appointed to one of those judgeships.
Ms. Graves:
So that would have been by Governor Chiles?
Chief Justice Quince:
By Governor Chiles. Started there January 4, 1994.
Ms. Graves:
What made you decide to become a judge or apply for a judgeship?
Chief Justice Quince:
You know, I don't know. I really never thought about it. A lot of
young people you talk to today will tell you, yeah, I want to be a judge,
but quite frankly when I went to law school, I never thought about it. I
didn't know any judges. I appeared before judges, but I just never
thought about a judicial career. I worked for years. I had been a
lawyer, but 1992, which was the first time I applied, I had been a lawyer
since 1975, so that was 17 years or so. But I still to this day. I question
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what made me decide to do it. And I think it was a combination of
having been an appellate lawyer for a long time and I thought, let me
see if I can serve in a different capacity.
Ms. Graves:
How old were you when you got appointed?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, let's see, 1973, ah I mean 1993, 1948, I was 45? Yeah.
Ms. Graves:
What was it like starting there?
Chief Justice Quince:
You know, when I think back on that it was so different being an
appellate lawyer and being an appellate judge. As an appellate lawyer
or any kind of lawyer for that matter, you have a certain leeway. I mean
as long as you are not lying, or dishonest, or anything, you have some
flexibility in your arguments, either in the written form or in the oral
presentation, but when you are a judge, you are really trying to get it
right. You are trying to make the best decision that you possibly can
based on the facts, circumstances, and the law that is applicable to the
issues, and so the thinking really is different.
Ms. Graves:
Did you feel comfortable from the first day?
Chief Justice Quince:
It was a little uncomfortable, and a part of that uncomfortableness for
me was I started serving on a court of people who I used to do
arguments in front of. It was a hard transition to make, even just calling
them by their first name. It was a very difficult transition and they were
always the authoritative figure, and now we are colleagues. It was a
difficult transition for a while.
Ms. Graves:
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Were you located in Lakeland at that time?
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Chief Justice Quince: I was located in Lakeland. I lived in Tampa and had to drive to
Lakeland every day and that was about an hour and 15 minute drive one
way. But I did have a law clerk who also lived in Tampa. Actually,
both of the law clerks that I had lived in Tampa. But one of them, he
would drive one week and I would drive one week, and so during the
week when he was driving, I could do whatever. I could read if I
needed to, and use my time wisely. And then on the other hand during
the week when he was driving, we could still discuss cases, because he
was my staff attorney.
Ms. Graves:
What about the collegiality of the Second DCA when you were on it.
What was the atmosphere like, the influence other judges had on each
other, the overall relationships between the judges on that court while
you were there?
Chief Justice Quince: I think we had a great relationship. With the two new judgeships that
started in '94, there were 14 people on the court. Half of us, however,
were in Tampa, and half in Lakeland, and of course being low down on
the totem pole, I had to go to Lakeland because the Tampa spots were
the judges on the court who lived in either Tampa or Pinellas, and one
that could be in the Tampa courthouse because they were obviously
closer. So, I had to drive to Lakeland, and I got to know the judges in
Lakeland really well. We would go out to lunch together sometimes,
but you know, in an appellate court, and I don't know how the trial
court settings are, because I have never been a trial court judge, but on
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an appellate court, we would stay in our offices a lot. You know, if you
are not working on an opinion, you were working on summaries, or you
are reading other people's opinions, and so there's a lot of -in the
office" kind of work that you have to do. And a lot of people stayed in
their offices. Even living in Tampa, I usually got to work by 7:30 and I
may not emerge from my office until close to lunch time. And I may go
ask someone if they were interested in having lunch today, or somebody
might come by my office and ask if you are interested in having lunch
today. If there's a question that comes up about something, there was
always someone you could go to their office and especially those who
had been on the court for a while, you might want to go discuss issues
with them. There was always someone to talk over things with, and of
course, we started 3-judge panels for the most part, and so you would
talk with the judges on your panel. We even had motion panels, so you
had that kind of contact with the other judges, too.
Ms. Graves:
Would you talk with the other judges first and get their opinions, or
would you do the research and analysis yourself and then go discuss it?
Chief Justice Quince: I think it was more the latter. You did the research and analysis
yourself, but there were occasion when, you know, the reverse may be
true. Look, I'm working on this issue. Have you ever done this? What
is the best way to start this? But for the most part you did your research
and analysis of the issues first.
Ms. Graves:
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And how many staff attorneys did you have?
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Chief Justice Quince: I had two.
Ms. Graves:
What was your relationship like with them?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, you know, it really depends on my personality and their
personality. When I first started, I had two male staff attorneys. One of
them, the one that we drove back and forth together had a wonderful
,
relationship. The other one was a very quiet, reserved person and
beyond the working together, he was a brilliant guy, but beyond
working together, we had no other kind of connection.
Ms. Graves:
So it just depends on the personality. How much did you use them
workwise? How much did you rely on them?
Chief Justice Quince:
To some extent it was difficult to discuss in depth every case that a staff
attorney worked on because there were so many cases. So, take for an
example, if you had no request cases, you may have all week long, and
you know, for 3 days, say 3 days, and you had your six cases and the six
cases that were assigned to the other judge, and the other six cases that
were assigned to the other judge, and so beyond your cases, it was very,
very difficult time wise to have them address some of the issues that
you might have about other people's cases. So I had to pretty much rely
on myself unless I got bogged down in an issue on other people's cases.
But with the cases that were actually assigned to me, there was much
more give and take with the staff attorneys.
Ms. Graves:
So they had the opportunity to sort of take a firsthand at analyzing
things or drafting an opinion for you?
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Chief Justice Quince:
Yes, but for the most part with other judges' cases, unless I really
needed some quick research done or something like that, they didn't
have as much input on other people's cases.
Ms. Graves:
How do you approach a case?
Chief Justice Quince:
I would try to at least read through one of the briefs and get some idea
of what the issue is about and try to assign the case, even though I'm
trying to make sure that everyone has an equal amount of work, but sort
of assign the case to somebody who may have had some dealing in that
particular area of law, if that was possible. So that's how I started out.
Even out the cases and find the best fit for whatever that issue is, and
keeping in mind that because we do a lot of death penalty cases, those
are pretty much assigned randomly because I don't want anyone to get
bogged down in doing more death penalty cases than anyone else. Then
you give the case to the staff attorney and they understand what their
role is, and they are going to have to read the record. That they are
going to have to read and analyze the briefs that the parties have filed
and given me, and eventually provide the court with an analysis of the
issues that have been raised. Now, when they do their analysis and their
summary, I get it before it is distributed, and then we may talk about it.
Well, did you think about this particular issue? What about that issue?
Maybe we would like to do some more work on this, and you know
those kinds of things, and so it takes some time to put it together.
Ms. Graves:
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When you were getting ready, did you always read the briefs?
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Chief Justice Quince: Yes, and sometimes there are issues and you really only need to read a
small portion of the record. So you read what is necessary. In some
cases the record is so short that there is no picking anything out, you
read the whole thing. So it depends on what issues are raised as to how
much of the record that you have to deal with.
Ms. Graves:
Ok. Do you have any sort of either most memorable cases while you
were at the Second District or more difficult ones?
Chief Justice Quince: I can't think of any right now. I know of cases I did not like. And we
had quite a few of them -- they were termination of parental rights
cases. I just saw them as so heartbreaking. I'm not sure I had a favorite
kind of case, but that was my least favorite kind of case. And here, of
course, the death penalty cases are always time consuming and
somewhat emotional, too. You know, I have done death penalty work
for a great deal of my career, but it is still difficult. It is still someone's
life in the balance. So, of course, here on the Supreme Court, we have
had a variety of interesting cases. You know, the 2000 Election,
parental consent for abortion. You know, a lot of these citizen initiative
cases. And so there is always something it seems of interest here at the
Supreme Court.
Ms. Graves:
Were you the first woman on the district court?
Chief Justice Quince: Yes. There were black men on most of the district courts of appeal.
Ms. Graves:
Ok, you were the first black woman? What was that like?
Chief Justice Quince: You know, quite frankly, I never even thought about it until actually
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someone mentioned it years later. I never thought about being the first
black woman on the district courts. I was very proud to have been
appointed because the one black man who had been on the Second
District Court of Appeal had resigned and he was ill, and so I was really
happy that we now had another person of color on the Second District
Court of Appeal. But at the time I was appointed, I know that there was
. . . Emerson Thompson was on the Fifth, and Judge Shaw was on this
Court, Judge Mickle was on the First. Ah, I'm trying to think if there
was, no there wasn't anyone on the Third, and there wasn't anyone on
the Fourth at that time.
Ms. Graves:
And there had been no females before that?
Chief Justice Quince:
And no females before that. And shortly after I was appointed, they
appointed Judge Green, Judge Melvia Green to the Third District Court
of Appeal.
Ms. Graves:
Did you have any sort of difficulties, or were you treated differently
being the first black woman on the court?
Chief Justice Quince:
There were always occasions. You know, what still stands out in my
mind is I was at a reception one evening and there were a group of us
standing around chatting. And some young man, I don't know if he was
young or old now that I think about it, came up to the group and started,
you know, chatting with the group and then he turns to me and says,
"oh, are you Judge Altenbemd's law clerk?" Here he is, doesn't know
me from Adam's housecat, but, you know, that was his first inclination.
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Always reminds me of the story of you know, you walk in, and they
ask, who are you? The court reporter? Those kinds of little things
would happen occasionally, but for the most part, I didn't think about it.
A lot of people didn't. Now, to a great extent I was probably asked to
do more speaking engagements because of that, certainly in the black
community, and the legal community as a whole.
Ms. Graves:
Yeah, that makes sense. What made you decide to apply for the
Supreme Court?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, you know, I had been on the District Court of Appeal for a while,
and I really enjoyed it and then I just go, maybe I could serve on a
statewide basis. You know, the Second District was a large court. The
covering of a 14-county area and, I actually thought I could do the same
kinds of service, but on a statewide basis and impact interpretational law
on a state-wide basis. So that's what made me apply for the Supreme
Court.
Ms. Graves:
And you applied once?
Chief Justice Quince:
No, actually I applied twice.
Ms. Graves:
Oh, you applied the second time, . . . second time . . .
Chief Justice Quince:
Second time's the charm. Actually, I applied back when Justice
Pariente was appointed to the Court. And then I applied the second
time, I'm trying to think who had retired. Justice Grimes, Justice
Grimes had retired and the person had to come from the Second
District. No, it wasn't Grimes, it was Overton. It was Overton, Grimes
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had already retired, and Overton was retiring, and that meant that . . .
because when Grimes and Overton were here together, when Grimes
retired, his was a statewide seat. But now that Overton was the only
person who left from the Second DCA area, it was restricted to that
area, so yeah, it was when Justice Overton retired.
Ms. Graves:
Ok, what did you think, or what do you think if it has changed, of the
judicial nominating process?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, I thought the process was working well as it was. At the point
where I went through a judicial nominating process, I believe the
Governor had three appointments to the Judicial Nominating
Committee, the Florida Bar had three appointments, and then those six
people chose three people. I believe that's how the process worked.
Now, essentially, I think the Governor makes all of the appointments. I
don't know why the process was changed. I thought the process was
working well. I think that merit retention versus elections make it a
little less political. But politics is not going to be gone totally, but I
think the more people who have input into even the Nominating
Committee, makes it less political.
Ms. Graves:
Right. So going through it, I'm sure it was a stressful process, do you
have any sort of memories, good or bad, going through either of those,
the second level or other Florida Supreme Court level?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, the first time around I think it, was the first interview I ever had,
of course, was the first time on the Second District. And you really are
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uptight. Sometimes, even the questions can kind of throw you for a
loop. but especially, more personal questions. Like the question about
who is going to take care of your children if you are appointed to the
Court, those kinds of things. The second time around I was much more
relaxed. I had some inkling, of course, at that point of the kinds of
things that they were interested in. So, you go in and you answer the
questions, and there's always something about, they will throw in some
curves like philosophy of somebody, or what does all of that really
mean? I can remember being asked at one of those interviews about
who is your favorite Supreme Court Justice and why? And, you know,
those kinds of things were, in my estimation, don't really tell you
anything. I mean, if I said, Rehnquist, does that mean I believe in
Rehnquist's philosophy? If I had said Brennan, does it mean I believe
in his? So there was always some of those kinds of questions that are
thrown in, I am always going, why? .
Ms. Graves:
Right, like what is your greatest weakness?
Chief Justice Quince:
I talk too much!
Ms. Graves:
You were sort of an anomaly when you were appointed to the Supreme
Court because you were a joint appointment between Governor Chiles
and Governor Jeb Bush. What year was that?
Chief Justice Quince:
Let's see, I think that process, actually started on the Court in 1999,
January 1999, so I actually interviewed with them and they made a
decision in December of 1998.
15478417.4
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Ms. Graves:
Right, Chiles, the verge of his last day and Jeb Bush's first day?
Chief Justice Quince:
Yes, and it was actually 3 days before Governor Chiles died, because it
was the 8th of December, and I think he died on the llth of December.
Ms. Graves:
Had they announced it before he died? Or was it announced after he
died?
Chief Justice Quince:
Yes. yes, the announcement was on the 8th of December, I believe.
Ms. Graves:
And did you have to interview with both of them?
Chief Justice Quince:
I did. And it was the same day. I have to tell you this, this was such a
funny story. The first time that I had interviewed with Governor Chiles
back when I was interviewing for the Second District Court of Appeal, I
came up here to Tallahassee and had on my cute little suit and stockings
and all that, and had like 3 pair of stockings with me, and I actually
changed stockings, I had on the pair I had on that morning, I changed
again, and I changed again for my interview, because I kept getting runs
in my stockings, and after my interview, I saw a run in my stockings. It
wasn't immediately after, I was never sure whether I had run in my
stocking during that interview. So when I came up here for the
interview with Governor Chiles and Governor Bush, I wore a pantsuit!
Ms. Graves:
Very smart.
Chief Justice Quince:
I said I am not going to run the risk of having this run in my stocking
making me feel uncomfortable, if I get one, no one will know under this
pantsuit. But any way, I ended with Governor Chiles at 11 o'clock in
the morning, and I think my interview with Governor Bush was either 3
15478417.4
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or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, so it made for a pretty long day.
Ms. Graves:
Were they really different types of interviews?
Chief Justice Quince:
They were very different kinds of interviews. I had the interview with
Governor Chiles, of course, at his office, and I believe, one other person
was in the room, but that person didn't ask any questions, didn't make
any comments, didn't say anything. I had my interview with Governor
Bush at the Governor's Inn in one of those rooms on the first floor, and
there were, I believe six other people in addition to the Governor in
there. And they were all seated around this table, and they all asked me
questions. I think it was his transition team people. So it was like all
the way down the line, I had all these people. And the first one might
ask me two questions, or three, or whatever, and then the next, and that
was a little nerve-racking to have so many people asking questions.
Ms. Graves:
At that point you would have been 49?
Chief Justice Quince:
Actually, yes, because I had a big 50th birthday party, wait a minute,
when did I have my 50th birthday party?
Ms. Graves:
Would have been right around the time you were getting sworn in,
probably?
Chief Justice Quince:
No, I started in, I would have started in '98, I would have had a . . . so it
was just, I was 50 at that point, and actually turned 51 when I started.
Ms. Graves:
Okay. And you were again, the first black woman to be appointed to
the Florida Supreme Court, and the second black person overall, right?
Chief Justice Quince:
15478417.4
Right.
-72-
Ms. Graves:
Justice Shaw,
Chief Justice Quince:
Third, and Justice Hatchett.
Ms. Graves:
Justice Hatchett, right. Third black person overall, and first black
woman? What, how does that make you feel? Does it make you feel
different?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well it was different because this is the Supreme Court and it was. I
can't believe "this happened" kind of thing. I enjoyed it, don't get me
wrong. I really enjoyed my time on the Second District Court of
Appeal, and I was very, very grateful, and thankful and blessed to have
been appointed to that court, but the Florida Supreme Court, I had done
so many, . . . and the Second, too, I had done so many arguments in
front of this Court, but again, I found myself in a situation where people
are still in the court that I had already done arguments in front of. It is
a much more interesting dynamic with seven people versus three
people. And it changes how you even discuss the cases, especially for
me, because being low man on the totem pole, I got to discuss things
last. But when you are on a three-judge panel, it's, if you have a point
of view that is different from say, you and I are on the panel and there is
a third person, and my point of view is different from yours, it is one
dynamic to try to convince one other person, one person of your point of
view as opposed to you need at least three more. So it makes for a
different lay even discussing the issue.
Ms. Graves:
15478417.4
How did your day-to-day go? Did that change at all as far what you
-73-
came in and did?
Chief Justice Quince:
Because you have fewer cases than you had on the district court of
appeal, I really think you have at least more time to actually get into
researching things, and if you have even the slightest question about
something, you have a little more time to deal with trying to find the
answers you were looking in various issues. So, your day changed
somewhat because you didn't have as many cases to actually deal with,
than you did on the district court of appeal. The district courts really
have a lot of cases to deal with.
Ms. Graves:
Did you find that because there are 7 judges as opposed to the 3 that it
was more contentious during conferences with all the differing opinions
and personalities?
Chief Justice Quince:
You know what. The one thing that I thought was so great and still do
is that there were differing opinions, no doubt about it, but very rarely
was there ever any contentious disagreement.
Ms. Graves:
So everyone remains professional.
Chief Justice Quince:
Every now and then the volume of your voice may go up, because you
might be so passionate about something, but it was never in a way that
was to try to shout someone down or tell someone that their point of
view was stupid or any of that kind of thing.
Ms. Graves:
Well, you mentioned this before, since you have been on the Court
several really exciting historical things have happened, probably the
most well known is the 2000 presidential election. Can you talk about
15478417.4
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what your life was like, what things at the Court was like back then,
how that impacted you as a judge, as a person?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, you know, the day-to-day life was really we were -- I don't want
to say held hostage -- but we were pretty much in this building, you
know, 14 and 15 hours a day. A part of it had to do with there were
always media types outside that once you came into the building, you
wouldn't even go out for lunch. I mean, because you didn't want to be
accosted by people trying to stick a microphone in your face, and I
never went out in front of this building for the 36 days that was going
on, I never went out the front of the building. And I can remember, I
came in here on Thanksgiving Day or the day after Thanksgiving, and,
`cause someone with a camera would get you as you were driving into
the garage, and so we had so much, so many emails, I actually had to
change my email address, . . .
Ms. Graves:
From the public?
Chief Justice Quince: Yes. And so many, so much mail, that we actually had the police to
police our neighborhoods,
Ms. Graves:
Your home neighborhood?
Chief Justice Quince: Yes.
Ms. Graves:
I imagine there were probably threats to some of you?
Chief Justice Quince:
Yeah. There was. For the most part, the Marshall's office tried to keep
that away from us, but you know, you didn't want to be too distracted
about the kinds of things, and you know that kind of thing is bound to
15478117.4
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happen, but the police would come in and check on us in our houses
occasionally. We could have had people bringing us to and from work,
but to me that is even more conspicuous than just driving yourself and
so our lives had changed quite a bit for those 36 days. As I said, we
spent a lot of time here. We, everyone on this floor was involved in it.
All of our . . . where you here then?
Ms. Graves:
No, it was right after that. A year later.
Chief Justice Quince:
The central staff attorneys were involved, all of our staff, but in that, all
the other work of the Court had to continue . . . if you remember, the
first week of November was oral argument week. And so, the election
was that Tuesday of that week. We had to continue on with our oral
arguments. At some point during that month, two death warrants were
signed, so we had all of that to deal with, getting ready for December's
oral arguments, so all of the . . . work of the Court didn't stop just
because people wanted to contest the election. So we spent a lot of time
on the election cases, but we were also spending a lot of time on the
other cases that were before the Court. Normal cases that we would
have heard at any other time, and then, of course, as I said, on top of
that two death warrants which requires, quite a bit of work, because
you've got to become familiar with a case you may not have even been
on the Court at the time all the other things were going on, so you've
got to come up to speed what went on in the defendant's direct appeal.
What went on in the defendant's 3.851 motion, his habeas petition, his
15478417.4
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federal habeas petition, his cert petitions to the United States Supreme
Court, the Eleventh . . . so you've got all this information that you have
got to get together for the death warrant cases so that you have some
idea of how this case even got to this point and the kinds of issues that
the Court has had to address along the way.
Ms. Graves:
How did the Court as a whole, or the judges in particular, act? I mean,
was there a high amount of tension, less collegiality, or did everyone
sort of go about doing the things you do?
Chief Justice Quince: No, I don't think there was less collegiality. I think we probably spent
more time just discussing it. If something came up, you needed to
really try to pinpoint. Because, we'd hope that whatever came out of
the Court would be unanimous. And the first one, in fact, the first
opinion, full opinion, was, in fact, a unanimous opinion, but then when
we got to the second one, it was not a unanimous opinion, but it still
required, in order to write the majority opinion, it required
understanding what the dissent was taking issue with and vice versa, so
it was just more intense and you knew you had to do it in a short period
of time.
Ms. Graves:
Did that situation change your view of being a judge or your judicial
philosophy?
Chief Justice Quince:
I don't think it did at all. Because I think we handled that case truly in
the same manner we would have handle any other case. You know, it
really came down to your interpretation of the statutory provisions
15478417.4
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concerning elections and any constitutional provision concerning
elections. I think we handled it the way we would have handled any
other kind of case.
Ms. Graves:
Just under a lot more of a time crunch?
Chief Justice Quince: A lot more of a time crunch, and you know, emails from people who
think they all know best, so I, quite frankly, I just stopped reading them
and had them just delete them. You'd get 2,500 in a couple of days.
Ms. Graves:
I can't imagine.
Chief Justice Quince:
Who even has time to read them.
Ms. Graves:
Right. One other thing before we get to your own personal cases that
you can remember as good or bad, or difficult, is I was actually here on
September H, 2001, and you know that kind of fear that came around
right after that happened, and the courthouse being shut down or locked
down, how, what was your day like that day?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, I was in the courthouse, the day was court conference day. We
had court conference and, I believe it was Justice Pariente who was on
the computer, you know, taking notes and things, and she was one who
told us about it. Justice Anstead had a daughter who lived in New York,
and so he left to go see what he could find out about his daughter. And
so it was really a somber mood. It seems to me, some . . .who else, did
someone else have a relative or something in New York? Let's see . . . I
know Justice Anstead's daughter lived in New York and so he went to
see if he could get any news about her, and I think the problem, not
15478417.4
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problem, but I think she was not able to get downtown because she was
on her way after everything happened. It was so unreal, and even when
you think about it now, I mean, I can't even, you know, to fly a plane
into a building, . . . so we took a break for a little bit just so everybody
could figure out what was going on and check on any relatives or
friends who may have been in that area, but then we finished court
conference.
Ms. Graves:
Well after that, a lot more security measures were put in place. Did that
impact your day-to-day activities?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, you know, it takes awhile to put new security measures in place,
and of course, we always have to go through the legislative process in
order to get any additional money, so we've had a few changes here at
the court. In my personal life, I don't think I have changed much at all.
For a while it seemed that we had more security at various functions
that we would go to, and they still do to some extent. It certainly, when
we travel, the Marshal's office tries to figure out if there is anything
going on in that particular area, any particular threat that they might
need to be aware of, but for the most part in my personal life, I don't
think I've changed my lifestyle very much because of 9/11. Although, I
do remember the first time I had to fly after 9/11. It was like two weeks
later. and a good, good friend of mine had retired and she was having a
retirement party in Kansas, Kansas City, and I really did not want to go.
Ms. Graves:
154'4417.4
I don't blame you.
-79-
Chief Justice Quince: But I said, I'm going to have to do this at some point, and so I went.
But you know the first time we got on the plane after 9/11, you are
looking at everybody . . . What are you going to do? But other than
that, and probably as time goes by, we get less and less aware, you are
always aware of your surroundings and you know looking at people, but
I think that was about the extent of it. I mean what can you really do?
In a situation like this, I mean, just think about it. You can't really stop
people who are bound and determined to mischief Of course, and it
made it very difficult, even to this day, I don't like to fly any more. I
used to love to fly, but if I have to go to Tampa or Orlando, or even to
Atlanta, I drive.
Ms. Graves:
Well, not even just not liking to fly, but it is impossible to fly from
Tallahassee
Chief Justice Quince: Yeah, and you know, by the time you go through everything you have
to go through, you are almost where you need to be. It's just, I guess
there is nothing else to be done, but there used to be such freedom and
being able to get to the airport, especially Tallahassee airport, 20
minutes before the flight's going to leave, and you are still going to
make it.
Ms. Graves:
Well, the cases that you handled on the Supreme Court we already sort
of said are much different than those in the intermediate courts of
Florida in that you have limited jurisdiction and you also have
mandatory review of death penalty cases among other cases that are a
15478417.4
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little bit more rare. I imagine death penalty cases have got to be some
of the most difficult cases you deal with, or death warrants. Is there any
other kind of case or issue that you have had to deal with that sort of
sticks out as a particularly difficult issue?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, I think any time that you are dealing with the constitutionality of a
statute, those are difficult issues to deal with. You've got the
Legislature who has passed this statute and who is really charged with
setting the policy for the State. But if the proper case is brought before
you, you have got to look at that statute, not just as "this is what the
Legislature thought was good for the State," but does it comport with
constitutional provisions, and so, that's always, you know, a dicey
thing. We don't get to see a lot of determination cases, you know,
because our district courts of appeal really are designed to be the court's
of last resort for most cases. So the ones that always get to here are the
death penalty ones and when the statute has been declared
unconstitutional. And we have had some interesting ones over the years
concerning the constitutionality of the statute. Even recently, a year or
so ago, the constitutionality of the statute concerning this new regional
counsel office. I mean, that case was brought to us and whether or not
this was in essence another public defender's office. The case involving
prior to the constitutional amendment, the case involving parental
consent for abortion. So those are the kinds of things that really impact
on people's lives. So there are just always interesting, and always all
15478,417.4
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kinds of cases that you think, is really going to make a difference in
people's lives.
Ms. Graves:
Do you have any sort of favorite kind of issue or some really
meaningful case that you dealt with that you recall.
Chief Justice Quince: Actually, we have one pending right now, so I can't comment on it.
Just needless to say, it's a Fourth Amendment case. The Fourth
Amendment is always very interesting to deal with.
Ms. Graves:
Enough said.
Chief Justice Quince:
Yeah, enough said.
Ms. Graves:
Now you became Chief June of , . . this is your second year, July 1st of
2008, so just . . .
Chief Justice Quince:
One year.. .
Ms. Graves:
2008. Of course, the first female, African-American, Chief Justice of
the Florida Supreme Court. What changed as you became Chief
Justice? Obviously you took on a lot of administrative stuff that you
didn't have before?
Chief Justice Quince: The budget did not accommodate what the court system really wants
and needs. So that really has consumed a lot of my time because in my
knowledge on the Court, and I have been in the court system for 15
years, I don't recall a time when we actually had extended hiring freezes
and travel freezes. And so it is very difficult to tell people no all the
time. You can't do this, or the court doesn't have the money for that.
Those are the kinds of things that have been going on, and trying to get
15478417.4
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the Legislature to understand the importance of fully funding the court
system you know, our work doesn't decrease because the economy is
,
down. Our workload actually increases because the economy is bad.
Florida is second or third in mortgage foreclosures in this country. We
haven't had an increase in the other kinds of economic things. People
not paying their credit card bills and those kinds of things, and so the
workload of the court increases while we're losing resources, and that
leads to less efficiency, it leads to cases taking more time to get through
the system, and so you try to explain that to the Legislature that, you
know, for want of a better phrase, you are being penny wise and pound
foolish. That you need the court system to keep all this going. We had
an economic study that really shows how not funding the court system
just exacerbates the problem, really. So, it has been a rough year trying
to get that kind of information disseminated and understood. And we
still have to continue down that path, because the Legislature gave us
our trust fund, but they put monies in that trust fund that are the
appropriate monies in my estimation. Fines, judges impose fines, we
shouldn't be running a court system on monies that the judges have
imposed. They put in a lot of the mortgage foreclosure fees. That's
finite. It's going to run out. We are not going to have this excessive
number of mortgage foreclosures and so what happens when that runs
out. That means our money runs out. So there is still a lot of work that
needs to be done with the Legislature about the funding of the court
15478417.4
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system.
Ms. Graves:
Is that the most difficult issue as Chief that you have had to deal with so
far?
Chief Justice Quince:
Yes.
Ms. Graves:
Have there been any other issues that have been taking up a lot of time?
Chief Justice Quince:
I think most of the issues that have taken up a lot of time are simply
reflective of the economic issues. Whenever someone wanted to do a
travel exception, for example, I'd have to make a decision as to whether
or not this is something that really was in the best interest of the branch
and that I should give an exception to. A hiring freeze, a hiring
exception is something that is in the best interest of the branch and I
should do it? So those are not the kinds of decisions normally that a
Chief would have to make, the Chief Justice would have to make
because it would be made on a local level, but because the money was
so tight, . . .
Ms. Graves:
It all came to you.
Chief Justice Quince:
Right. Most of the things are just a reflection of the money situation
really. If that situation was not there, a lot of the other things that I had
to do over this past year, I would not have to do. I could safely say,
look, you're the Chief Judge of that circuit, you make a decision as to
whether that circuit can handle that.
Ms. Graves:
I think that the last couple of questions are sort of probably ones you
have heard before. We've covered your life and your judicial career
15478417.4
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and everything. What do you think are the qualities of a good judge,
lawyer, court administrator?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, I think there are several things that make a good judge, lawyer,
court administrator. One is honesty, integrity, patience, perseverance,
preparedness, and just good old fashioned hard work.
Ms. Graves:
One thing I didn't ask you is what is your typical day like here? Do you
still get here at 7 in the morning?
Chief Justice Quince:
I try to on a lot of days, but I have been kind of tired recently. I still try
to get in early because I find that before people start calling you, before
you have to start going to meetings, that you can get a lot of work done.
I tried to, if I am in town and I like to go to early church on Sundays, 8
o'clock service, and when 8 o'clock service is over, I like to come by
the office for a couple of hours. You know, just to get some things
done. I normally, assuming that I got to the office at 8 o'clock, I would
try to get some files moved, work on possibly draft opinions, a lot of
times I'll read a lot of those at home and make my scratches and
changes and all that. I may have one or two meetings during the course
of the day. I may have to answer some correspondence, or send out
some correspondence. But you've always got to work on your cases,
too. Typically, by the time the evening comes, there may be even a Bar
activity to go to. So a typical day is working on cases, answering and
preparing mail, meeting . . . generally I have a meeting pretty much
every day with someone in the system.
15478417.4
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Ms. Graves:
Have you enjoyed being the Chief?
Chief Justice Quince:
Most days. There are days you go aye yah yah! What is this all about?
If I could just work on this case. I don't want to solve any problems.
Ms. Graves:
Right. Do you have any thoughts on the appointment of judges? We
talked a little bit about the judicial nominating process and how it has
changed. Do you have any thoughts about the way it is now. What
could be better, anything like that?
Chief Justice Quince:
You know, I'm a real proponent of merits election and retention.
Simply because I think that judges should not be put in a position of
raising money. And we know who is going to be giving judges money.
Every citizen knows nothing and cares less about the judicial system
unless they get sued or they have to sue someone. For the most part,
judges are going to be getting contributions from lawyers and business
people and I just don't think judges ought to be put in that kind of
position. We know that over the years, the amount of money that it
takes to run a campaign, even for judges has just increased
astronomically. I know in a state where the Supreme Court Justices are
elected, it has been millions of dollars, each candidate raises millions of
dollars. You know you look at the Caperton case, I mean that's the kind
of thing you end up with, when judges are out there campaigning and
raising money.
Ms. Graves:
Do you think that circuit judges, trial judges should also be subject to
merit retention?
15478417.4
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Chief Justice Quince:
If I had my druthers, I would. That is the way I voted when the issue
came before the people, but the people decided that they wanted to keep
electing trial court judges. But when you think about it, how often do
you even do that? Most trial judges, if you look at the statistics in this
state, most trial judges after they have gone through one election, rarely
get any opposition. So the people aren't really getting in to vote on that
judge again, but if I were queen of the world — merit retention at all
levels! And I just think that the money part really, really bothers me
that you have to raise so much money. But I am really sick about the
amount of money that is raised in political campaigns. In fact, in some
of these elections, people get very close to the line of what they even
say, and you know, judicial elections are supposed to be non-partisan,
you have to be careful what you say about your opponent, and so it just
never seems quite worth it to me.
Ms. Graves:
What is your approach to writing opinions?
Chief Justice Quince: What is my approach to writing opinions? In what, you mean ...
Ms. Graves:
You know you have the case that has been assigned to you and you
reached, you've gone to conference, and you know sort of where you
are headed, what the facts are, do you have a law clerk usually draft it
and give it to you or are you more hands on?
Chief Justice Quince: No, we sit down and talk about the nuances of it, because sometimes
there are a couple of ways you can approach it, but what's the way that
is going to garner more support. So, I will sit down with my staff
15478417.4
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attorney who has worked on this case with me and discuss it in that
sense. How we are going to approach this. Which aspect of this case is
the way that the majority of the court would be comfortable with the
drafting of the opinion. If I am drafting it, if the first draft is my draft,
that's the way I do it, and that's the way I hope, if I have the staff
attorney do the first draft, that I tell them "this is the way I want you to
do it." No one writes exactly like you would like and so when I hire a
staff attorney, I tell them I hope they aren't offended by redlining.
Ms. Graves:
Yeah, . . .. you can't be, or it will be a problem.
Chief Justice Quince:
I start off trying to make sure that I have set the stage and I think that's
the way most opinions are written. Sometimes the hardest part is
getting all of that history and why we are at this point together. For the
most part that's how you do it. Because you have done most of the
research prior to getting ready to draft the opinion and hopefully, you
don't have to do a lot more research. You can rely on the research that
you have already done to start talking about why this issue is being
decided the way it is being decided. Because that is in essence what
you are doing. You are telling the reader, and building up for the
reader, why the Court's ultimate decision is being made, and why that
decision is being made.
Ms. Graves:
On that same note, because the Supreme Court has limited jurisdiction
in many cases, you exercise your discretion to take review of a case of
those that have an impact on the state or an issue that could impact lots
15478417.4
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of people as opposed to an issue that just might affect this one person,
and perhaps may even be moot by the time the case is over. What role
does policy, or public policy play in your decisionmaking?
Chief Justice Quince:
That's a very, very complicated and touchy issue because we are not the
policy makers and I don't care how much you think that you were a
legislator, you would not have passed this, as long as that statute is
constitutional, you have got to decide the case the way the statute
requires you to decide. Only if the constitutionality of the statute is
before you and that's still not so much a policy issue, well, it's a policy
issue in the sense that the Constitution is the ultimate policy of the State
and so if this statute does not comport with the ultimate policy of the
State, then you can do it, but your personal policy feeling, it's a rare,
rare occasion when that would ever come into play. I guess, except to
the extent that a statute can be so ambiguous that it could go either way.
That you could read that statute to say this or that, and I would probably
think that in that kind of situation a certain amount of your own
personal policy on that issue might come into play, but only if it is
really and truly ambiguous.
Ms. Graves:
How do you view the role of oral argument?
Chief Justice Quince:
I think it can be the way you win or lose a case. There are a number of
cases that you learn nothing new in oral argument. You know that all of
us, before we go to argument, we have already read the briefs and the
summaries, and case law, and so you have some initial inkling of how
15478417.4
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this case should be decided, but there are those cases where there are
questions that are either not answered in the brief or whatever, and so a
good advocate, if they can satisfy you with those questions, can make a
difference in how you ultimately decide the case. Now, no doubt there
are any number of cases where you know what the ultimate outcome is
going to be, but there are others where you really could be able to
convince someone one way or the other because you are clarifying
something that was not quite clear in the briefs. I think it can make a
difference. Most lawyers know whether or not, where they are, and we
probably have more cases that we don't have oral argument on than we
do. We always have oral argument on death penalty cases, whether on
direct appeal or post-conviction. For the most part, we probably always
have oral argument on constitutional challenges to statutes.
Ms. Graves:
As an appellate judge and appellate lawyer, most of what you see are
writing and oral advocacy. What are the qualities you see in a writer or
a good brief? What qualities are best to have for a good writer or good
brief?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well both of them need to be prepared. You need to able to tell a story.
There is nothing (well, I shouldn't say "nothing") but to do, say
Statement of the Fact, and say this witness said this, and this witness
said that, is . . .you know, read me a story here. You know, John Blow
came into his house, pulled the telephone wires out so he couldn't make
any phone calls, and then weave it so that the person that's reading it,
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wants to read it and you are helping them to understand and get a visual
picture of what's going on here. I think that is magnificent writing.
Ms. Graves:
What do you think is the most important part of the brief?
Chief Justice Quince:
I personally think it is the argument. Now I have seen terrible
Statement of the Case and Facts, but I think that's more a reflection on
the lawyer than the case. When you twist the facts or leave out facts
just because they aren't helpful to you, so to me that's a reflection on
the lawyer. The argument really has to be the most important part of a
brief to me because that really focuses the judge in on the facts and the
law. So I say hands down it's the argument portion. I can, you know,
read the facts for myself, and I can do the law for myself, but your take
on why under the circumstances of this case, this Court should do XYZ
is just the most important thing to me.
Ms. Graves:
How many issues, no excluding death penalty cases where there are like
ten thousands issues, in a regular civil type or similar type case, what do
you think is a normal amount of issues?
Chief Justice Quince: Four, four. Yeah,
Ms. Graves:
You don't think more than four?
Chief Justice Quince:
It is very difficult, it's very rare that you've got a civil case that's got
more than 3 or 4 issues in it.
Ms. Graves:
What qualities do you find are best in oral advocate at oral argument?
Chief Justice Quince: Honesty and answering the question. Whether you have a good answer
to the question or not. There is nothing I find more irritating than not
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answering the question. I've had people say, Judge, you know. I've
never really thought about that, but XYZ, something. I would prefer
that than, you just deciding you are just going to go on with your own
version and act like the question was never asked.
Ms. Graves:
What do you think the qualities of a good lawyer are overall in any kind
of practice?
Chief Justice Quince:
I think practicing with professionalism, really and I just think if we
could hearken back to those old days when you called me up or I called
you and I said, Chrissy, I'm going to send you XYZ, and you knew I
was going to send exactly what I said. Why put people through the
misery of filing a motion to compel and that kind of stuff. What's the
point, who are you helping?
Ms. Graves:
What's the hardest part of your job?
Chief Justice Quince:
Hardest part. Finding enough hours in the day. You know there really
is a lot to do and I, quite frankly, I like being out in the public too. So
really finding enough time to do all that the job itself requires and those
other things that sort of come with it. It is really challenging.
Ms. Graves:
What advice would you give young lawyers, particularly women
lawyers?
Chief Justice Quince:
I would first of all say, be sure this is something you want to do. That,
to a certain extent, even to this day, the law is a jealous mistress and
requires a lot of your time. There is nothing wrong if you find that this
is not how you want to spend your time, so just once you have gotten
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out there and start doing it, if you find it isn't something you want to do,
don't be ashamed of that. I have known young people who decided that
the practice of law was just not for her. She didn't feel that she was
aggressive enough. I was going to say "cut throat." But she wasn't
aggressive enough and so she was not happy with the law firm setting
she found herself in, but, and if you find yourself in that kind of
situation, then there are other aspects of the law that are not as
aggressive. Whatever it is you get into, you need to do with vigor, you
need to do it to the best of your ability. So if you find that you don't
want to put it into the legal profession then I would say that you should
find another profession to be in, because no matter what aspect of the
law you get into, it is going to require some real concentration and
intense effort.
Ms. Graves:
What sort of changes have you seen, good or bad regarding women in
the profession?
Chief Justice Quince:
Well, when I started law school in 1972 probably women made up
somewhere between 10 and 20 percent of the law school, maybe not
even that much. So I have certainly seen the number of women in the
legal profession increase. A corollary to that, the number of women
judges has increased, the number of women partners has increased, but
the number of women in those parts of the profession, the judgeships
and partnerships in law firms have not increased to the same level as the
number of women in the profession overall. And so there's still a lot of
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work to be done, but there has been some progress made. The same can
be said for blacks and other minorities in the legal profession. It has
changed, but it is still kind of closed in some aspects. It is really kind of
closed, especially for women in minorities. Women, whether we like it
or not, are still the primary caregivers in most households. I know of a
few househusbands, but for the most part, women are still the primary
caregivers and yet there are so many places where women cannot
progress if they want to take time off to raise a family. They are not
accommodated for job-sharing, or part-time and not given credit if they
only work part-time. There are many situations where young black
lawyers, I mean a lot of them are still first generation lawyers, many of
them don't have access to the kind of clients that firms want you to
bring in, and even when they get into those firms, quite often they arc
not invited to the situations where you might possibly intermingle and
mix with people who could bring in business. So there are lots of things
that have changed, and certainly the numbers, but there are other things
that we still need to do to be working on the profession.
Ms. Graves:
Do you have any advice to those young minorities or young women
who are trying to break through some of those barriers that still exist?
Chief Justice Quince:
It's hard. I've been to a couple of diversity things in the recent past and
you know some people don't think there's a problem. There are still
people who don't think that a State with a population of blacks, for
example, of 13 or 14 percent, where the population is black, yet in our
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profession, we are talking about 2 or 3 percent. That in a State whose
population of women is probably 51 percent, that you know very few,
well let me see, women, what was the last figure I saw or women who
make up the profession? 30 something, maybe?
Ms. Graves:
That sounds about right, and that's probably mainly the increase in the
last few years.
Chief Justice Quince: In the last few years, yeah. They see nothing wrong with that, and so
what if they aren't partners. So what if, you know, they are making less
than their counter parts, so
Ms. Graves:
Right.
Chief Justice Quince: So a lot of it has to do with trying to change attitudes of the people who
are, for lack of a better word, in control. But I would tell them to keep
working at it. I would tell the minority lawyers and the women lawyers
that you have to keep working on it. That if you don't, nothing will
ever change. It won't get any better. You know, many of us didn't start
out wanting to be the first of anything, but we keep working at whatever
it was we were working at, and so you did. So, you just got to keep
going. If it is really what you want to do, you've got to keep going.
One of the things that is troubling to me is, we are actually losing
numbers of minorities and women in the profession, and I am
wondering what the reasons are. Is it dissatisfaction with the legal
profession because of these other things that I talked about? I don't
know and I'm very concerned about how far this is going to go. Are we
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going to end up with a legal profession that will look the way it did, you
know, 20 or 30 years ago.
Ms. Graves:
What's your greatest regret, if you have one?
Chief Justice Quince:
Oh, greatest regret . . . . I actually wish I had had a couple more
children.
Ms. Graves:
Yeah?
Chief Justice Quince:
Yeah. That really is my greatest regret. Yeah. Were you thinking of
career wise?
Ms. Graves:
Oh, I was just thinking in general.
Chief Justice Quince:
Okay, because I really don't have any regrets career wise. I don't really
have any regrets in my career because, I have found myself in some of
the best situations I think you could possibly be in. I chose to go into
public service, really because I wanted my husband, who is a much
more aggressive person, and much more the type of what I perceive to
the type to be the trial lawyer in the courtroom and all that, so I wanted
him to have that kind of opportunity and I was perfectly happy. I found
out with the first brief I ever wrote, I knew that it was something that I
liked. So I was perfectly happy in the situation that I was in and it
allowed me the kind of flexibility that I needed in order to raise my
children and to be there for them, especially after my father died. So I
don't really have any regrets. As I told you earlier, the AG's office was
a wonderful place to learn and train and be with people. We had just a
wonderful time there. I never felt, that I was being treated less than any
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of the other attorneys there, that there was any racial or gender issues
there. Now, I know that other people in other offices had issues, but in
the office I was in, I never had those kinds of issues. And then from
there to the Courts where in both situations that I found myself in at the
Second District and here, I could not have asked for better colleagues.
So I really don't have any regrets in my career.
Ms. Graves:
Personally or professionally or both, you have accomplished so many
things. Do you have any particular accomplishment that you would say
is your greatest accomplishment?
Chief Justice Quince: Well, I have educated my children. I come from a family where my
father and mother were not college trained people, and so my sisters and
brothers and I got the opportunity to go to college. And so my goal was
to make sure that my children went to college, and that their children,
build a legacy in our family that this is what life is all about. You
know, high school wasn't enough and certainly dropping out is not for
us, and so for me having done that is really wonderful. And I think,
other members of the family, not just my siblings, but cousins and it's
like building a family legacy.
Ms. Graves:
Is there anything professionally or personally that or more than one
thing that you want to do before it's all over?
Chief Justice Quince: Actually, no. I'm not interested in moving to the federal courts, none of
that. I am very happy and content here. I do plan to, when it is all over,
I would like to give more back to the community in the way of helping
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young people. And so that's what I'm planning to do when that day
comes, when I retire from the Court. I want to work with young people,
probably through Guardian Ad Litem programs, just because I just want
to help. A lot of the young people that we find in our dependency
system, don't have anyone. So that's my next goal in life.
Ms. Graves:
Yes. Well, Chief Justice Quince, on behalf of the Women Trail Blazers
in the Law, the Commission of Women in the Profession of the
American Bar Association, we thank you very much for your time.
Chief Justice Quince: Thank you.
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