TAPEll~
INTERVIEW WITH CASPER
Saint Paul's Westside Mobster (Latin King)
17 year old Euro-American
20.16
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November 1996
Pinnacle correctional facility
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Interviewed by Kate Cavett
Hand in Hand
__ , the first important question. What's another name I can I use to identifY you?
Casper.
How old were you when you first became aware of gangs?
I became aware of gangs at the age 12 and got into it at the age 13.
How old are you now?
17.
How did you first become aware of gangs?
Urn, I seen gang activity down the block and didn't realize what it was until ah, I seen
some of my friends down there wonderin' what they were doin' and I just kinda followed
them after that.
And where was that?
On the West Side ofSt. Paul.
What was the gang doing?
Ah, I seen a beating ofa person and police and ambulance down there and I didn't really
know what was going on so that's when I went to go down and find out.
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20.48
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What was the next step in your process of finding more about gangs and being attracted?
C:
Getting into the gang and showing myself how I was able to be a positive person to the
gang and what I could do for the gang.
K:
What could you do for the gang?
C:
If they needed money or help in something, I'd be there for 'em. If they needed help or a
way of getting money, how they could need me in that sort of situation.
K:
You were initiated in when you were 13?
C:
Yes.
21.07
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What gang are you in?
C:
Westside Mobsters. It'sjunior Latin King gang.
K:
How long did you hang with the gang before you were initiated?
C:
About a week or two?
K:
What was your initiation like?
C:
It scared me but I was able to follow through.
21.19
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Yes, I did.
What was the literature?
Wearin' certain color clothing. Certain finger signs with pockets that carry a flag in and
who to like and who not to like.
After you learned those things and you were initiated, what was the next step for you?
To prove to top rank people how I could become a hi~her success in being in the gang by
following the higher leaders and helping them out and showing them that I could be in
there place, too.
How far up in rank did you get in the Westside Mafia?
I became leader of Insane.
Tell me about all the things that you did to become a leader.
IfI had a member gettin' hurt~ I'd be right there to help 'em so he wouldn't get hurt. Ifhe
needed help hurtin' others, I'd be there to help 'em so nothin' went wrong.
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Tell me the story of the process.
Ah, just stand in a circle and then they'll take three people from the circle out of how
many is there and have a five minute fight.
So three people were fighting with you?
Yes.
You were expected to fight back?
Yup.
Did you fall down?
Ah, yea. I fell down. I got back up, though.
Does that make a difference if you fall down?
No, it does not.
Were you pretty bruised up when you got done?
Urn, yea, I was bruised up. I had a swollen jaw. No deep wounds or no cuts or no
permanent damage.
Have you participated in initiating other people?
Yes, I have.
When your initiation was complete, how did you feel?
I thought that was step one to following the rest of the steps to get to a higher rank.
Did you have to memorize any literature to be initiated?
22.27
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What about makin' money?
C:
We usually made money by burglaries and small profits and it kept adding on from there
from drugs to guns.
22.33
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In selling drugs and guns?
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Yes. Or trading from guns to drugs for money.
What drugs did you sell?
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I have sold cocaine and marijuana and acid.
What part of town were you mostly selling?
The East Side and West Side.
So you left your home turf to go sell?
Yes, I have.
On the West Side, is there a lot oftuff? This is your area and other gangs aren't supposed
to come in?
Yes, I do. That was a real risk to go from the West Side to the East Side. That's not my
turf
Why'd you do it?
'Cuz I figured I was strong enough and my people that was with me were strong enough
to stand up for who we are, go over there. Ifwe didn't start nothin' and we was hopin'
that we wouldn't get into too much trouble with the stuffwe had on us.
You went to the East Side only to expand your area to make profits?
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I wouldn't really listen to her. If she told me, find different friends, I couldn't 'cuz already
bein' in a gang, people know who you are and it's hard to choose friends after that. So I
just kept bein' with my friends and tried to keep to my friends away from my house so my
rna wouldn't get so mad.
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23.10
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Yea, that is and to go places that we've been to before that we know people over there.
K:
Tell me some specific stories of things thatyou're doing. A day when you supported one
of your hornies.
C:
I supported one of my hornies when he came to me. He said, Ya know, I'm havin'
problems. My girlfriend, she threw me out of the house. Can I stay with you? I was like,
Yea, sure. Come stay at my house any time you want. I'm your hornie. Can't throw you
out on the streets. After that, they could stay at my house for awhile. It's just that we
couldn't get into trouble.
K:
This was at your morn's house?
C:
Yes, that was.
K:
So your mom knew that you were in the gang. Did she support you being in the gang?
C:
She knew I was in the EanE but she didn't have the choice to support it. She just didn't
like the idea.
23.50
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Tell me more about she didn't have the choice to support it.
24.01
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Were you going to school?
Sometimes. Otherwise~ no.
How long have you been out of school?
About a year or two.
What was the day in the life of Casper?
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Goin' from one side of town to the other tryin' to make it there without gettin' shot or
gettin' stabbed on a bus or somethin' without tryin' to meet other local gangs that you
don't know and hopefully gettin' through it.
How did you travel mostly? By bus or by car?
Depends on who I was with. I would travel by a bus. IfI had to go like through shipments
of drug dealers, I would be in a car.
How large was the business of the Westside Mafia?
It was pretty large when it came down to guns 'cuz we had other local gang members that
was different from us wantin' to get guns and stuff from us so we could make our profit
there. It's about makin' money instead of hurtin' others, too.
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24.37
What would be circumstances that would require you to hurt others?
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If they disrespected us and tried takin' what was rightfully ours, not theirs. Tried takin'
C:
over certain land or certain territories that's not theirs.
What is the territory ofyour gang?
K:
The West Side basically. The whole West Side.
C:
Annapolis to the river?
K:
From
Annapolis down to Concord Street. From Concord Street to Winifred.
C:
What's the west boundary on that one? Concord? It's on an angle.
K:
Concord is a main street. And Robert Street is a main street. Annapolis is the border from
C:
West St. Paul to the West Side. From Annapolis down to Concord, we call. That's the
whole West Side practically. Further on from Concord Street to the river, not much gang
activity's going on from there. It's mostly buildings. But from Concord Street up to
Annapolis past Annapolis even is practically West Side turf
I used to live in West St. Paul. My son graduated from Sibley so I've driven through the
K:
West Side thousands of times. You were a junior gang of the Latin Kings?
C:
Yea.
25.29
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You're 17 now. Are you still a junior?
C:
No, I am not. I already had a chance to be a Latin King but I chose to not go into a bigger
gang. Ya know, I'd just rather help the other people that I supported before and stay with
them.
25.40
K:
And you're the leader of the Westside Mafia.
C:
No, I am not. I'm really high ranked into a branch ofInsane. That's a branch of Mobsters,
but I am the leader of that, yes.
K:
Do some education with me. I kind of understand GD structure but I've not interviewed a
lot of Latin Kings. How does the structure work?
C:
For initiation Of...
K:
You say you're a branch of the Insane Latin Kings.
C:
I'm a branch of the Westside Mobsters. Insane is a rank.
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Tell me more about the rank ofInsane.
The rank ofInsane is people that's in the gang that's been known to do more things that's
more crazy, more hurtful to people as in violent ways.
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Yes.
Do you use the term OG?
Yes.
So OG is even higher rank?
Yes, it is.
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26.22
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What are the different ranks in the Latin Kings?
C:
There are different ranks in Latin Kings and there's different ranks in Westside Mobsters.
The different ranks in Latin Kings is from soldiers to OG. There's others but OG is the
one that's most respected and soldiers are the ones that make more money.
K:
And in the Westside Mobsters, what are all the different ranks?
C:
There's soldiers, there's bishops, and there's insane, and there's OG.
K:
How many are in the Westside Mafia?
C:
The last time I can remember, there's about 60 on the Westside.
K:
How long have you been away from the Westside?
C:
I've been away from the Westside 8 months now that I've been locked up.
K:
So if there's 60 Westside Mafia, what percentage are soldiers, what percentage are
bishops? How do the different percentages divide out?
26.57
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The different percentages is by the nationality. There's whites. There's some white. 90%
of the gang is Latin. Soldiers are people that just got initiated and have to prove
themselves to be higher ranked. Bishops are people that hold onto the money, that's able
to be trusted. Insane is people that's known to take care of business that's dirty. And
OG's are the people that get stuff organized.
K:
How many OG's are there on the Westside Mafia?
27.15
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I know about 20.
K:
What's the total age range of people in the Westside Mafia?
C:
The total age range? The oldest, I think, is 22. The youngest, I think, is 14.
K:
Will some of the OG's move onto the Latin Kings or do you think the Westside Mafia will
just continue to have older members?
C:
I think that they wanna continue with the Westside Mobsters and be known as Latin Kings
and continue with the Westside Mobsters.
K:
Do the OG's see themselves as more Westside Mobsters or Latin Kings?
C:
They see themselves more as Latin Kings but they know they're Westside Mobsters 'cuz
they've been with the gang for quite awhile and they can continue it and they know they
could be a Latin King if they wanted.
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Do white kids get to be OG's?
Yes.
Is your goal to be an OG?
No.
What are some of your goals?
My goal is to try not to be so functioned with the gang as much and stay away from it as
much public activity such as violence and stuff and drugs, like that.
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27.57
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How do you plan on doing that?
C:
I plan on trying to get them more organized, more civilized instead of more crime. Try to
do it legal be gettin' a normal job and real money that they can spend on what they really
want. Not stolen money from stolen items or hot money or stolen narcotics that's not
theirs to sell.
K:
Are you planning on getting a real job for yourself but also creating ways for other people
to get real jobs?
c:
Yes. I try.
K:
How long have you been trying this or how long have you had these goals?
C:
I've had these goals for about four months now. It goes through your mind when you're
locked up but it's kinda hard gettin' it through to other gang members from the activities
they've been through for so long. It's gonna be hard to change their ways.
K:
Do you think you'll be successful?
C:
In myself, I think I will. In others-, I know I can change some others but there's some
others I don't think I'll be able to.
K:
What happens if they don't wanna change or if the money isn't as good? What's Kane
gonna decide to do?
28.40
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What I'm gonna decide to do it keep tryin' to talk to 'em, ya know, on how to be able
to ... whatever dirty work they're doin' is to be able to do it without gettin' caught or
without hurtin' so many people. Do it civilized. Do it organized where they're not hurtin'
nobody or hurtin' themselves by doin' it.
K:
What are some of the strategies that you think you can do?
28.53
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The strategies that I think I can do it to just help 'em out more, ya know. I'm known, I'm
trusted and I'm very respected. If they take my word for it, they should be good. And if
not, there's not too much I can do except get 'em off to the right track, hopefully.
K:
What would you have to do to become an OG?
C:
To become an OG, you've gotta ... you gotta settle down on bein' out in the public so
much without bein' so known to other people, other gang members so you don't get shot
up so quick 'cuz if you're high rank, then you're more wise and stuff and you're pretty
respected. Stay low with certain other gangs and things like that. Let other OG's know
that you think you can become an OG or you wanna become an OG 'cuz it's probably that
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time maybe.
Are there initiation steps where all ofa sudden somebody says, Hey, you've been a good
soldier. We're gonna have you be a bishop now. How did yo know when you were
Insane?
They would give me tasks to do different things and if I completed it, ya know, they'd be
pretty proud and they'd be happy with what I've done and they'd give me different jobs to
do and ifI did it well without messin' up or somethin', ya know, I'd be pretty good and
well respected on the work I've done and proved to them that I can do what basically
they've been doin' for awhile.
29.49
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What were the kind of tasks that you were given to move from a soldier to a bishop?
Bein' able to hold money and handle money for awhile without spendin' any money that's
c:
not mine. Bein' able to get things that's worth money, sellin' it without gettin' caught such
as stolen merchandise, stolen stereo equipment worth money. Things like that. Able to
help your gang out with other things like that.
K:
So it would be about taking part in robberies and selling drugs and then handling the
money well afterwards?
Yes, it would and makin' more profit after a certain amount of money came.
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You trade for some guns or you steal some guns and then you're able to sell them at a
K:
profit. Then you don't spend that. That's what it takes to become a bishop?
30.18
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Not just to become a bishop. Just for whoever that can make the money and see, what
they do is they'd steal the guns. They wouldn't wanna get caught with stolen weapons so
they'd trade it for money that can't be traced.
What did you have to do to become Insane?
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30.28
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You had to show other people and lower ranked people and higher ranked people like the
things that you can do if someone was to mess with you, that you would not walk away.
Step up to them face to face and fight 'em one on one. Or fight yourself on three.
Somethin' that you don't see every day between a person. Somethin' that's just not seen.
Runnin' up to a person in the car and start hittin' 'em. Try to pull 'em out, take their
money. It's not considered natural.
K:
How long were you in the gang before you became Insane?
C:
I was in it for about a year and a half
K:
You've been Insane for about 1 V:z or 2 years?
C:
About 2 years now.
K:
What would they ask of you if you said, I wanna be an OG?
C:
They wouldn't ask me too many questions 'cuz they know, ifI wanted to become an OG,
I'd be able to. But they'd be shocked from asking me to come out of my Insane rank
because nobody's able to take my rank of that and they'd be wondering who I would give
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it to.
So only certain number have the rank: of insane?
Yes.
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How many have the rank: of Insane out of 60 in the Mobsters?
About 10.
And you're saying that none of the bishops have started to prove themselves that they
could be Insane?
Some of them could but since they're the ones handling most of the money, we wouldn't
want the chances of them gettin' caught with the police and stufflike that with the amount
of money they have on 'em so they lay low from all the ... from nobody knowin' so much
about what they do.
How many bishops are there?
There's quite a few bishops. We've got 'em here and there. There's about 25 or so. We
have a lot of 'em. It just depends on where most of the money's at and where they're
stationed on the West Side or the East Side is where they'll handle a lot of money.
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Is it harder for a white kid to get rank: than a Latin kid?
C:
No. It ain't but it depends on if you could trust 'em more. 'Cuz where I'm comin' from,
most white nationality people are known to tell on people, known to snitch more than
others and ifwe can have 'em in the gang for awhile and be down with us for about a
month or so before they start sayin' anything or snitchin', so anything that we can be able
to trust 'em, then we'll probably get 'em in. Doesn't matter about what their color is. It's
just if we can trust 'em and if they're respected. If they respect us or not.
32.03
K:
When you go back and you want to start "reforming," restructuring the gang, what do you
think you're gonna do?
C:
I'm gonna back and tell them I ain't gonna do so much violent crimes and so much things
that are so hurtful, ya know. I wanna go back and tell them that if you're still gonna do
your thing, try to stop most of the violence and stop most of the hurtings and hurtin'
yourself and hurtin' other's families. Think how they feel.
K:
What if they shut the door? What if they say, We don't wanna have anything to do with
this? Will you have to leave the gang?
C:
No, I won't have to leave the gang. I just wanna put better choices into what they're doin'
so they don't make many mistakes so they don't get locked up 'cuz that's what most of
'em feared was getting locked up. If they listen to me, they won't get locked up.
K:
There are better ways to do the crimes and to sell the gun so that you don't get caught?
C:
Well, there is. It's just not to sell so many guns. Try to make more money legal instead of
illegal.
K:
What did you get caught up in? Is this the first time you've been incarcerated?
C:
Yes.
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What happened?
I got caught robbin' a house and sellin' guns.
Was it worth it?
At the time, 'cuz of the amount of money I was holding and seein', it was but all the time I
spent in here with no money and no respect, no.
Why don't you have respect here?
I have respect here. Just not the respect I want or the respect I expected to get.
What was the respect you wanted and expected to get?
It's not what I wanted. It'sjust what I expected. I didn't expect all this that happens here
to come at me like this all at once and stand up for so much stuff at once. Stand up for
what I can believe in.
T ell me about that.
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33 .. 19
When I came here, I was different and people here help you change your life. They know
C:
what you've done 'cuz of your record. They know what you're about and how you
actually act. But bein' in here, they can't exactly tell because there's nothing you can do
that shows you the gang affiliation that you've done. So by yourself, you have to work on
what you've done and how you can do it.
What are some of the changes that you've made for yourself here?
K:
C:
I've changed by not thinking so much about disrespectin' other gangs members. They're
people, too. I don't wanna just come up and start trouble with 'em or start tryin' to cut
them down because they're in other gangs. I've changed my ways ofliving and the clothes
I've wore and the colors I wear. I won't cock a hat no more to the left side or wear flag
bandanas no more. I'll probably stay wearin' the same kinda clothes, just not so much
gang lookin'. People will know that I'm part of a cartel and they realize that I'm not tryin'
to start nothin' with them but if they start trouble with me, it's always known for me that
I'm not gonna go walk away. I'm not lookin' for a fight but I'm not walkin' away from
one.
34.15
K:
You sound like an OG to me.
C:
Others said that, too, because of how long I've been and how respected I am and some
ask me why I don't become one. And I said, well, maybe I would have that chance. But
bein' inside lookin' outside, you can't do that much.
K:
Have you had communication with your cartel since you've been out?
C:
No, I haven't. It doesn't bother me though, neither, 'cuz when I get out, I'll just be able to
see what they've done and how they've changed and new ways of respect in', ways of
livin' .
K:
What other gangs hang out on the Westside?
C:
There's quite a few gangs. You've got the RCB's. You've got the TMC's. You've got the
Vice Lords. You've got the Home Boys. You've got GD's. You've got Crips. You've got
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Insane Puerto Ricans. There's a lotta gangs out there.
Brown for Life? Are they on the West Side, too?
Yea, that BFL.
You say that the West Side Mobsters have this territory. If these other gangs hang out on
the West Side, do they think they have the territory, too?
Yes, they do. It's the certain blocks you will walk on. Ifl am walkin' on the West Side
goin' down to another part of the West Side, I know what blocks not to go on and who
hangs out here and who lives there. I know where most other cliques are stationed at most
of the time.
So there are some blocks that are Mobsters. There are other blocks that are BFL. There
are other blocks that are Vice Lords?
Yep.
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35.13
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Can you walk on one side of the street and not on another side?
C:
No, you can't actually because where my friends live now, right across the street, there's
another gang. But if you walk on that side and they now that you're from across the
street, they won't do nothin'. Same thing with us. They're walkin' on our side of the
street, we're not gonna do nothing 'cuz we live right across the street from each other.
But if we seen them some people that live across the street further down the street on one
of their friends' blocks further down where it's not our block, then they'll probably do
something.
K:
If I brought you a map of the West Side, you could take different crayons and mark off
different areas.
C:
Yep.
35.35
K:
Wow. That's a lot like the L.A. gangs and the Chicago gangs and not as much like some
of the other areas of St. Paul.
C:
I don't know too much about any other city gangs such as the West Coast ofL.A. and
Dallas and Ft. Worth, down there. But I know there's a lotta gangs stationed everywhere.
It's just allover the nation.
K:
You're affiliated with the Latin gangs but are there people that come in? Do you do any
traveling for the Mobsters?
C:
Yea. I've done traveling from St. Paul to Chicago.
K:
For drugs, guns?
C:
For drug money, drugs.
K:
Taking money over, buying more drugs?
C:
No. Taking drugs over to get money.
K:
I thought drugs sold for more here than they do in Chicago.
C:
No. The thing where you can get most profit is where you wanna go. And here, I picked
up merchandises in Wisconsin for very cheap prices, brought 'em down here, sold 'em for
a high price and made double profit and then did the same thing and then got a higher
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price in Chicago and then transferred it from there to there.
C:
K:
C:
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You were a big money maker.
Yes.
Were you a bishop for awhile?
I was a bishop for awhile until they decided to make new rankings.
When did they decide to do that and how did they decide to do that?
They did decide to do that when they seen certain things happening. How they did that,
they brought it up with the rest. There's the two pretty most high ranked people in the
gang.
So of the OGs, there are three that are even higher than all the rest of the OGs.
No, the OGs are considered higher than first and second rank people because they've
already been there and then they became OG. But the first and second ranked people, they
will take it up with the OGs and see what they think about it.
First and second rank are like president and vice president?
Yes.
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36.53
K:
Do you have meetings?
C:
We do on occasions when somethin' goes down, somethin' bad happens, money is missin'
and stuff like that.
K:
How often might you have meetings?
C:
We'd have it once a week. Ifwe was havin' a good day, good week for the past few four
days, we'll let it go by.
37.05
K:
Meetings would be once a week or twice a week?
C:
We would have almost a meeting every Friday unless someone is gone or somethin'
happens, then we'll miss out on the meeting and then we'll just continue with the meeting
later.
K:
Where do you have meetings?
C:
We usually have 'em in a house of somebody's that's nobody's around. We'll have 'em in
local parks in areas where nobody's around. Where we could talk about certain things.
K:
What about Queens?
C:
Queens, yea. Queens are also ... we have Queens, yes.
K:
Do the Westside Mobsters call them Queens or do you have another name for females?
C:
No, we call them Queens.
K:
So there are different Queens for the Westside Mobsters than there are for the Latin Kings
on the Westside?
C:
No, they're the same kinda Queens, just some are Mobster Queens, some are Latin
Queens.
37.45
K:
What's the role of the Mobster Queens?
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C:
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The role is to ... that I do not know. I've seen some females do some pretty crazy things for
bein' a female. They've done stuff that my guy friends have done and some of that stuffis
pretty crazy and if we could see females doin' that and then other females doin' that, then
we're eligible to have 'em in.
What I think I'm hearing you say, the assumption that I'm making is the Mobsters are all
male.
Yes, most of them except the Queens.
In your gang, the Queens are gangsters in their own rite as much as the males are. They're
not just an auxiliary organization? (Explain auxiliary) If the Queens are an auxiliary they
don't get involved in any of the business?
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38.33
C:
Some of 'em have gotten into the business of carrying the narcotics or carrying the guns
because most police people would not suspect women if they're not right out lookin' like
a gang member already. So usually we'd have them carryin' stufffor us. We'd have them
do certain things in case there's police lookin' for certain members already and have their
face and description. So we'd have the females go down the block and do somethin' 'cuz
if we have a male go down to another side of the block where we need to do business,
we'll send a female where usually they probably won't get jumped by other gang members
guys or other women.
38.59
K:
What's the initiation for a Queen?
C:
Some of them fight and some of them is sex.
K:
If it's fighting, is it the same? You have to fight with three people?
C:
No. It's different. You get a female and then they see another female somewhere else and
then they start talkin' stuff to each other and then they'll fight.
K:
F or a female to be beat in, it's just one on one.
C:
Yes.
K:
What's the ritual if they're gonna be sexed in?
C:
If they do not wanna fight, they'd have to choose somebody from who they're closer to in
the gang to have sex with.
K:
Do they have to have sex a certain number of times or just have sex once?
C:
Just once.
K:
You mentioned the Police, what do the police do to try to stop you?
C:
They try to stop us by just pullin' us over for no reason, typin' our names up in the
computer, see if we have warrants in there. Ifwe have warrants, then they'll arrest us to
get us off the streets knowin' that we're gang members.
K:
Does it do any good?
C:
No, because some of them have fake names. Some of their friends that's with 'em will
back 'em up sayin' that's they're fake name. If they're runaways, they'll say, I'm his
cousin. He lives with my aunt or somethin' like that.
39.46
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What could the police do that might be effective?
I don't really know because they haven't affected us too much unless they caught us red
handed doin' somethin' where we were caught on the scene of the crime.
How'd you get caught?
I got caught on the scene of the crime.
How come? You're bright.
It wasn't exactly on the scene of the crime. Me and my other friend, or he went back to
the place. And then, when we was leavin', a day later, the person know who did it and
then he had a cellular phone behind us in the car callin' the police tellin' 'em we're on this
freeway with this kinda car. Too many people in the car.
So your friend went back and the owner saw him?
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40.16
C:
The person that knows who did it, the person that we robbed was somebody my friend
knew. When we went back there, he knew that he did it and then he knew that I had
somethin' to do with it, too, 'cuz we're usually hangin' around the most. He let us get
away with it for a day and then we was drivin' in the neighborhood again and then he
came by, drive behind us with a cellular phone sayin' he's in this kinda car on that street.
K:
How come you robbed somebody you knew?
C:
I didn't know him. My friend did. I was with him because I knew it was big money in it
and he did, too. That's why he went for it.
K:
It wasn't like it was a close friend.
C:
No.
40.45
K:
Did he set him up?
C:
No. He didn't set him up. He just wasn't respected enough for him. He didn't have
enough respect for him to care for him as much as a close friend.
K:
Was he in a gang?
C:
No.
K:
Somebody older?
C:
Yes.
K:
Tell me a story about a weapon.
C:
Well, I could say a story when me, a few of my home boys, we was walkin', it was on the
East Side of St. Paul and we seen another gang rival. We was on the wrong side of town
again so we was expectin' it. That's why we had a gun with us. We was goin' to the store.
It was 11 somethin' at night. Goin' through an alley and we just heard voice, bottles
breakin' and we just seen 'em. Then right away, we knew that we was already end up
fightin' because it was night time and other gang people in an alley. So we was ready to
fight right there. We started fightin' then a few of the other people, they broke out some
knives so we just stepped back. We didn't wanna ... nobody really wanted to shoot nobody
right there real quick so we just let it slide for a little bit. Then one of my friends, he got
stabbed right in the back with a screwdriver. Then when my other friend pulled out his gun
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and then he started shootin'. That's about that and after that, we just started runnin'.
41.42
K:
Was anybody hurt?
C:
My friend was hurt. I don't know. I'm not too sure about the other people. I knew a few
of 'em were hurt.
K:
Did you take your friend to the hospital?
C:
Yea.
K:
What hospital?
C:
Ramsey Hospital.
K:
Do you usually take people to the hospital?
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C:
No, we do not 'cuz usually some have warrants like I said and they'll ask the name and
they'll call police and say we have people here that seem to be gang members and one's
stabbed or one's been hurt. They'll ring up the original name for the medical and then right
there, it written in for a warrant.
K:
Why'd you take him to the hospital this time?
C:
Because he was bleeding pretty bad and it was a deep wound and it was on the left side of
the back and I thought it maybe hit his heart or something so I was scared.
K:
Good for you. Did you guys just drop him off or did you stay with him?
C:
I stayed with him. We all stayed with him. It's just that after a certain amount of time, we
couldn't be in the hospital.
K:
Did the police come?
C:
No, we just did what they asked because we knew they would call the police if they was to
have to bring it to that situation so we just left while we were still there without police.
K:
So when you brought him in, they didn't suspect you as gang members?
C:
No, they knew we were gang members. They just don't know if we have warrants or what
we're all about, if we have guns on us or not so they just didn't say nothing. They just
said, Time's up. You can't be in the hospital at this time so we're askin' you to leave. So
right away, if we didn't leave, they would have called the police so we left.
42.39
K:
When were you the most frightened?
C:
The most frightened, I was by myself one night on my way to my house and seen about 13
other different gang members come right around the comer when I was about 2 blocks
away from my house. They didn't even say nothin'. They just started fightin' so I started
fightin', too. I had a billy club on me so I just used that and helped myself but every time I
kept hittin' one, there's always one that's comin' towards me, too.
K:
What gang was that?
C:
I think it was the Bounty Hunter GD's, East Side.
K:
That's a set I've not heard of What happened?
C:
After awhile, some of 'em left 'cuz they was gettin' busted up and I was backin' up
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43.25
towards my house too so we heard sirens so they just all ran. Pretty sure they had
warrants, too, ya know. They're other gang members just like us. Just different
nationalities, different sets, different neighborhoods.
Are there any black gang members in the Mobsters?
Nope.
What about your family?
My mom, she knows ... she didn't exactly know what I was doin'. She was just scared for
me, hopin' that I wouldn't be gettin' hurt. So I did what I could do the best by not gettin'
myself hurt by lettin' my mom down.
Was there anything your mom could have done to keep you from being in such dangerous
situations?
No, not really because I basically almost did what I wanted. Then now since I've done
what I wanted most of my life, I feel bad about my mom 'cuz she tried what she could do
the most to help me.
How's she gonna feel when you go back and you're involved as you were before?
I'm not going to be but ifI was, she'd be really disappointed in me.
Will you still be living on the West Side?
No.
What if someone wanted to leave the Westside Mobsters? How would they do it? Could
they do it?
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They could do it but they wouldn't wanna see the wrong people at the wrong time later on
in the future. 'Cuz if they wanted to leave, they'd have to talk it up and they was like,
Well, you know what'll happen. And then they see 'em again. Then they've got a beating
coming to 'em mostly.
K:
You've been gone for 8 months. If you were to go back, living in another part of town
and you just didn't go to the West Side and you went to school and you went to college
and you just kept a real low profile, would you be able to get out?
C:
Yea. They'd probably figured that I wasn't there no more. They know that I wasn't
interested no more. They realized that since I been in placement, I changed probably for
the better 'cuz they know what they do is not right but that's what they do to make their
living.
K:
What happens if you see somebody? Would they have to give you a beating?
C:
No. 'Cuzjust one of 'em couldn't do it. Most of the people I know are mostly under my
ranking. They'd just ask, Where have you been? I could tell 'em where I've really been or
what I've wanted to do or not. IfI was to tell 'em that I didn't want in the gang and I
wanted to be away from 'em and not participate in any of their things they do, I'll tell 'em
that. They won't really do nothin' about it. They just think, Why are you doin' that after
all that time? I tell 'em it's for the better.
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K:
C:
You've beaten somebody in. They've been in for a year. Could they now say I'm leaving
the gang and not be beaten out?
They wouldn't be beaten out right then and there. They'd tell 'em... they could be.
Depends on who they are and how they've been trusted. But if it was somebody that
wasn't trusted too well, they'll probably get a beating right there on the spot.
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45.14
K:
Like a soldier?
C:
Yap. A disrespected soldier that didn't show us much respect or not. Wasn't able to do
too much. Didn't stand up for what he thought or nothin'.
K:
What about a respected soldier?
45.24
C:
We'll be like well, you started from day one. Why you wanna come out now? It depends
on what their excuse is. We'll tell 'em later on, you know what'll happen to you if we see
you again. Then, they'll know what the agreement is on that.
K:
In other words, if anybody sees somebody after they've announced they wanna get out,
they just know it's gonna be a beating.
C:
Yea.
K:
A certain length of time beating or just a beating as long as people wanna beat?
C:
As long as people wanna beat, you could say, 'cuz I've seen it til the police showed up or
until people had to get 'em away from 'em.
K:
Have you ever beaten anybody to death?
C:
No. Not to death.
K:
How long have you beaten people?
C:
Probably about 10-15 minutes straight. Like six of us.
K:
Six of you beating one person for 10 or 15 minutes?
C:
Not straight as in me from then til then but on and off, we'd take a few hits here and there.
K:
You guys didn't get the brunt of it but the other person definitely did.
C:
Yes.
46.03
K:
Would this be for a violation or somebody saying they wanted to get out?
C:
It would be for somebody that said they wanted to get out. It would be for a violation too,
if somebody had done something they wasn't supposed to that violated ... they'd probably
get the same thing except it wouldn't be a beating. It would be a one on three fight again
like the beginning.
K:
What are the kinds of things that people can get violations for?
C:
Not showin' up for three meetings in a row. Puttin' something on the set that they didn't
do or that they said somethin'. Like they'd put it on the set that they didn't do somethin'
and when they did it and they find out about it, they'll get a violation for that.
Disrespectin' things. Disrespectin' people more than too many times. You can only go so
far. That's about it. Not too many violations occur.
K:
What happens at the meetings?
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C:
We discuss who's been messin' up and who's been showin' more achievement. People
that mess up, we'll let 'em know what they're messin' up on. What's gonna happen if they
keep doin' it.
46.49
K:
C:
K:
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K:
C:
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K:
C:
Not beat them right there but just jump 'em the next time they see 'em?
No, probably beat 'em there in case they don't see 'em next time.
That wouldn't be a three on one for five minutes but for as long as they wanted it?
Yep.
How badly have you hurt somebody?
Urn, others were charged with second degree manslaughter charges. I could say I've done
that. I've bruised people pretty bad. I've split people's heads open and hurt people, color
blinded people.
Those that were charged with manslaughter, the person died later?
No, they didn't die. That's why I don't see why it's manslaughter but it was attempt to
kill. A person's ear came off. They're braces went through their jaw or their cheek.
It sounds painful.
Probably was.
Are you scared of anything like that ever happening to you?
Yes, I am.
ne
47.14
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Who runs the meetings?
Probably the highest rank person there. Some people might show up and then they'll wait
for a certain time for how many people to show up. They'll start the meeting without 'em
and then the highest ranked people will start it.
What happens if somebody's always messin' up? Do you ever say you're not in this set
anymore?
Yes. That's when a violation will occur.
You might violate somebody. You might do a three on one beating and just say you're
out.
Yea, we could say that. We could give a three on one and tell 'em, start showin' up and
start hangin' around more. If they say that they want out or they're not tryin' to be in it,
then they'll probably jump 'em.
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47.51
K:
Tell me more.
C:
I'mjust ... cuz I've seen it and I'm scared that that might happen to me. But I have enough
confidence in myself, not lettin' things like that get to me, hopin' that that won't happen.
K:
If you go back and start asking them for changes, what do you think will happen?
C:
They're gonna ask me what kind of changes will be made. I'm gonna say all changes. A
lotta changes. The way you disrespect other sets. Change that. Flaggin' color changes.
Cockin' your hat. That way. Not show so much as gang
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members by hangin' out in crowds that's in one spot and all that. Throwin' up
the air. Not that.
sets in
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48.22
K:
Besides the East Side, do you ever go the Mall of America as a gang or anything like that?
C:
Yes, we do. Usually, we won't really go with two or three people. Usually, it's like 1 to
15 to 20 people.
K:
You go as a big gang?
C:
Yes, 'cuz usually that's where a lot of other gangs are, too. If they are there, they don't go
in small groups neither. And if they are, we don't do nothin' to 'em 'cuz it's 20 people
against 3 other people. But we won't go startin' trouble. We're just goin' there knowin'
that we don't wanna fight. We're just here makin' sure that none of us do get hurt.
K:
Is Mall of America kind of free territory for everybody?
C:
Yea, it is 'cuz they know that a lot of violence has happened there in the past. Fights and
all that. Anybody can go there. It's just that if other gang members see other gang
members that's in like a certain amount of people, then they'll start sayin' stuff. But if
there's a big group and then a bigger group, they probably won't say much neither 'cuz
that's a pretty big crowd and it'll cause a pretty big distraction.
49.03
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C:
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How much interaction is there between the OG's and the Latin Kings?
There's quite a bit 'cuz it's mostly about money. And between that and respect, how long
you've known a person, how well you know the person. A lot of it's relation and family,
too. People know people that are in OG's have relatives that are Latin Kings and
interconnect with them through family and by money and probably the Mexican Mafia
through gangs.
So the Mexican Mafia is kind of a larger umbrella over the Latin Kings and then the
Westside Mobsters are a very small umbrella?
Yes, it is.
Do you know people in the Mexican Mafia?
I can't say I don't but I know they are but they try not to show that they are, even though
I can tell. I know what they're about and know who they are. They just don't wanna
advertise it 'cuz it's a pretty big thing.
Is that where you get your drugs?
Urn, no. It's not. Most of the drugs come from is from the Kings and where they get it is
probably the Mexican Mafia from Texas. So yea, it's like a chain reaction.
49.44
K:
C:
Does that make your drug business and easier run business than some of the other gangs?
Yea, it is 'cuz we .. J could say that when it goes through conceptions from the Kings, it
goes straight to Texas. And from cheaper prices, the more money down to ... the more
money that goes down to Texas is more money for them. That means more money for us,
too. So the more we make on the streets and burglaries and crimes and thuggings and stuff
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K:
C:
and muggings and stuff: that means more money for them. More money for us.
Does a certain percentage of all your money go back to the Westside Mobsters?
No. That depends on if there's something we need that can be right for the clique. Like,
we need a car so we sell so much stuff and when we give it back, we keep the money that
we made from it and invest back through the drugs to get more money.
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50.18
K:
Do you have to buy drugs? You're gonna do your own business. Do you have to buy
drugs, then you get to keep the profit or are the drugs given to you and then a certain
percentage of the profit has to go back to the organization?
C:
I could have the narcotics loaned to me and then sold for what I want and then give 'em
back what they want. The percentage that I made, I could go back and ask them for more
by buying and fronting, I get it loaned to me. I'm makin' triple the more money.
K:
What percentage has to go back to the organization?
C:
The amount of money they ask for that's in the amount of money of narcotics they give to
you.
K:
It's not like 50 percent has to go back? It just varies?
C:
It kinda varies. You could ... they would give you $100 worth of stuff and that's all they
want back is $100. Then you could make that into $200 with what they give you so you'd
give 'em back the $100 that they ask for and then you've got the $100 to yourself.
K:
What do you do with your money?
C:
That's where you can invest into other things. Most of us, we save it up until we can get
what we want. If we needed a car or something important. If somebody wanted a large
shipment of narcotics, we'd start savin' to double the money that we put into it. 'Cuz
usually, we could get our narcotics for a very low price and sell it for a very high price.
51.08
K:
What about robberies? A certain percentage of what you make off of a robbery when you
turn it into cash go into the organization?
C:
Yea. In that part, robberies and houses usually is .. .ifyou get all cash that's split up or it's
put to something that can help the gang. If you get jewelry and expensive stuff like stereo
equipment, VCR's, TV's, radios, stuff that we know we can get money for, we'll probably
take what we can get the money for and keep the amount of money that we want. Then
usually, that could go to the gang or usually some of it does go to the gang and the rest
would just go the gang by itself and then keep whatever you want.
K:
So there isn't a quota where you're expected to make so much money a week or month to
go to the gang.
C:
No. If you're with 3-4 other members and you're the only one that finds stuffworth a lot
of money, you're expected to share it, too, because all of you went into help do it. It's just
that you found something. So right there, you're expected to help out and give them
money or give them what they expect, too. But if everybody goes in and finds something
that they have that's worth something, then they'll go ahead and cash it in and then turn it
in. If each of us got a certain amount of money, a certain amount of stuff for money and
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each of us got different amounts of money, we'll combine it to get double the profit. We'll
go buy narcotics with the money that we got from the stolen merchandise and then double
the money that we had already.
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52.03
Tell me about your chemical use.
K:
C:
My chemical use. Well, when I was about 15, I started using it. When I got into the gang,
I wasn't using it. That's what really helped me out on money is because I didn't smoke
marijuana or I didn't do cocaine or nothing. I would sell the weed that I had 'cuz it was
given to me and I didn't smoke it. Most of my friends, they smoked some so they didn't
always get exactly the large amount of money. And then when they came towards me to
buy the weed and that's where it also turned back around there to our gang. And that
helped them with their weed habit and back to more money in my pocket, too.
K:
What drugs have you tried?
C:
I have done cocaine before. I've snorted cocaine. I've done acid before.
K:
Marijuana?
C:
Yes.
K:
Alcohol
C:
Yes.
I used marijuana. I didn't put money towards marijuana for me to
smoke.
some with me, I'd
I put it towards the stuff that I was gonna sell. If they was gonna smoke
smoke some. My alcohol use. If we were partyin', we was happy through the day, we got extra
pitch in for a certain amount of beer or
money that don't need to be done with, we'll
whatever kinda booze. And the cocaine
that came in, we'd give guns for cocaine. Then we'd
sell the cocaine and make
the money back for whatever money. Then lines would be spread
out for people.
Some people could go snort it if they want. Some people could roll it into
some of their weed if they wanted. Otherwise, it could be given to me.
53.05
Would you use every day?
K:
No.
C:
How often would you use in a week?
K:
Are you talkin' all of the stuff?
C:
K:
Yes.
C:
I would probably smoke weed probably every other day. I didn't drink much. I didn't
drink at all really unless I was at a party. Cocaine, we didn't really wanna get into the
cocaine business because too much killing's going through there and stuff like that. We
didn't know what we bein' cut and uncut so we didn't deal with that. When we did, it was
just once in awhile. Probably not even once a week. It'd be once or twice a month at the
most.
53.29
K:
How often have you done cocaine?
C:
I've done cocaine once in my life. I didn't feel nothin' so I just won't go back to it since it
didn't do nothin' to me. And I'm glad it didn't do nothin' to me 'cuz I didn't wanna get
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C:
addicted on it.
Real cocaine is real addictive.
I don't know 'cuz like I said, it didn't do nothin' for me. That's why I'm glad I didn't get
hooked onto it. I've met people that has gotten hooked onto it and then keeps comin'
askin' me for stuff and I say no. Even though I'm gettin' money lost from me but I don't
wanna hurt too many other people like that by bein' addicted and sellin' everything they
got to get the stuff
What else should I ask you?
Is there anything else you need to ask me?
What haven't I asked you about that you see as a piece of gang life?
What I see it as, ya know, as myself, I don't go lookin', to other gangs and try to start
stuffwith 'em just because we're in other gangs. I see it as I could be standin' into a
whole crowd of other gang members. IfI ain't flaggin' or nothin' how they gonna know
what I am, ya know? Unless I go out and tell 'em. It's not like I'm tryin' to brag ifl was
in another gang but it's just ifI respect somebody else, they should respect me, too. It
doesn't matter if I'm in a gang or not. Most people that are older now, that see a lot of
gang activities because a lot of disrespectin's goin' on, ya know. A lot of it's because of
nationality. A lot ofit's because people try to act tough, ya know. Try to start fights and
don't want 'em around there again. But all that's gonna cause is a bigger war. A certain
amount of people on this side of town's gonnajump them. Then that person that got
jumped is gonna go back and get their boys and come back over there and start a bigger
fight. I just see it...you don't go lookin' for stuff. Don't start nothin'. Don't get into other
people's business. It'll be all right. Try not to interfere with nothin'. Don't go around
doin' nothing stupid. If you know you're gonna go to another place where there's other
gangs that's gonna definitely say somethin' to you and start stuff and try fightin' you right
away, don't go 'cuz you already know.
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54.53
K:
What would be a comparison of war that you see yourself as a gang member to some
other piece of society?
C:
Like comparing nations?
K:
Do you see yourself like a physician or like police? What other part of society is a gang
like?
55.09
C:
I don't really know what part. It's just natural. Kids are gonna do what they want
practically. If they wanna be with their friends, they're gonna do that. If they wanna make
bad decisions and do things that's gonna get them put away and realize that gang members
and police are attracted to them, they're gonna do it. That's what I think it is. People are
expressing to the public too much that they're gang members and braggin' to the police
about who they are. Graffiti allover the place, tryin' to realize who they are. If you're in a
gang, keep it to yourself Don't try throwin' it in anybody else's face 'cuz it's just to
yourself and the people in your gang.
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C:
If you get back to St. Paul and you realize the gang doesn't wanna listen to the changes
you're going back to suggest and you decided you need to get out" what type of support
would you need?
First, if! was to get out of the gang and who I'd go back to ... who could help me without
myself gettin' hurt or without others gettin' hurt, I don't know who I'd go to. I'd actually
go to the person, one of my family members. I'd go to one of my family members, a wise
person in my family. Like I said, most Mobsters have relatives that are in high ranked
Latin Kings which I do so I'd just talk to him about it, ya know. Then he'd talk over it
with 'em too and bring it to the Mobsters and stuff like that. If I wanted to get out, I'd be
able to get out. But again, people .. .I' d expect what would be comin' to me.
56.21
K:
It sounds like you've done a lot of changing down here. You're looking at things
differently down here. What's made that difference for you?
C:
It's something that happened and somethin' .... basically, somethin' that happened. Things
have happened in my gang between other members, ya know, and it really made me mad
and disappointed in between 'em, ya know. So I thought differently. And because of how
I've hurt my family also. It made me think different and think twice about what the gang
life is.
K:
What happened with the gang?
The gang, they'd come to a suggestion and ifit didn't happen right, they'd go right along
C:
fightin' each other, which made me mad. Then when I'd say somethin' about it, they'd
realize what's goin' on and how they're comin' apart and how they're actin'. So different
against each other. I don't know what it is, if it's the money or the disrespect showin'
between 'em or not.
57.14
K:
A lot of internal fighting?
ne
M
K:
C:
Not a lot but some of it, it is because of amounts of money, I think it is. The amount of
money it is, it starts to become an internal fight, yea.
How do you know you've hurt your family?
Because they've told me and I can tell how I've hurt my family because of the way they've
looked against me and the way they've changed against me on tryin' to help me with stuff
on things that I needed.
in
C:
57.31
K:
Have they given up?
C:
No, they haven't given up because they know that they've gotta give me another chance
now that I'm getting out of placement. They'll see how I've changed and that's what I
wanna do is put trust back into my family and show them how I've changed.
K:
It sounds like from the beginning, Mom expressed concern about you being involved in
the gang. What's happened now that you're gonna be willing to look at that?
C:
Being willing to look at the gang?
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K:
Being willing to look at how much your family's been hurt.
I've been looking at it for quite awhile. Then I just gotta put trust into them from all the
years that I have been in the gang and how I can do that is just by stayin' outta trouble,
not doin' the things that has been done.
Do you have any children?
No, I do not.
If you had a son, would you him to become involved in the gang?
No, I wouldn't.
Why?
Because I wouldn't want him to grow up that way. I wouldn't want him to end up in
places like I am now. I'd move outta the state probably, go to a place where I didn't know
nobody 'cuz I'd want my son to grow up in a good environment. I don't know too many
environments that are too good without gangs anyways but I'd want what's best for him.
Him or her. For the baby. I wouldn't want to raise a child to go through what I've done.
End up like I was, have tattoos and have gang friends with him, gettin' him into trouble or
him getting others into trouble.
In St. Paul, they're trying to put in a tattoo removal program. I don't know if we've
gotten funding for them yet, but if you wanna have them removed. You have to be outta
the gang though.
What could have been done that would have kept you from getting in the gang?
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58.46
Probably neighborhood recreation. There's a lot of that. Usually, that's a big place where
C:
people try to stop and prevent gangs, ya know. Like schools also. You go there and they
help other people sayin' how not to get into gangs. If you're in one, how you wanna get
out and how we can protect you.
K:
You didn't listen to that.
I didn't really know where to go. At the time, I didn't really care. I was already in it and I
C:
thought it was too late. I'm with my friends now already so why would I go there? Ifwe
went there, we'd think it was just a bunch of bull because they don't exactly know what
our life's like. We don't wanna go out hurtin' people makin' the neighborhood look bad.
It's just we are who we are. Doin' things that we do is not something we're happy about
doin'. It's just things that we have to do or somethin'.
59.19
K:
Could anything have been done to have stopped you from getting into the gang? Would
there be some type of an activity or program or an interest that you could have gotten into
that would have stopped you from getting into the gang?
C:
Not really. An interest? I'm not too sure about programs neither but I know there is
programs. I don't know where they're at. I don't know what they do. I don't know what
they're about. It's just that if there are programs, I'd like to go to one just to see what
they got to say or what they do.
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c:
Has there been anyone down there that has said anything or made a difference in
your life?
Yes, there has. It's our Bible study teacher. He made me take a look at God and God,
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to me, is great and stuff like that. Now that I put more belief in myself instead of so much
of the gang life, I have more confidence in myself
K:
How did he help you take a look at God?
c:
He talked to me. All you gotta do is listen real well to what he's tryin' to say and realize
that he's helpin' you, not hurtin' you. He got me lookin' at it, ya know, 'cuz of things
that's in the Bible are stories that's happened. He brought in guest speakers and things
that happened to them was somewhat the same as things that happened to me. I was
wonderin' how they was feelin' and what might happen to me and how I'd feel and how
my family feels.
1.00.18
K:
Sounds like he took a personal interest in you.
Yea. The Bible study teacher, he looks at me like a really nice guy, ya know, and I am,
c:
too. It's just the things that I've done that looks real bad on some parts and the gang
activities I've done and bein' known as a gang member is also not too good.
K:
I agree with him. I think you are a nice person. What else do I need to ask you? Anything?
C:
No. I don't know if you have any more questions.
K:
Thanks.
1.00.40
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