Transcript
7 February 2016
WILHELM HARNISCH DEBATES DAVE NOONAN ON THE
NEED FOR THE ABCC.
ABC RADIO NATIONAL, SUNDAY EXTRA.
JONATHON GREEN (Host): It’s time to do that thing we do at about this time – look at
two sides of a story.
It’s back! The Construction Industry Improving Productivity Bill 2013 – number two to be
precise. That Bill is all about bringing back the Australian Building and Construction
Commission (ABCC). The legislation is heading back to Senate for a second time.
The Prime Minister wants the Bill passed by March to re-establish the ABCC or maybe
take it to a double dissolution election. That was the threat to the cross bench Senators
last week before some acted with Labor and the Greens to kick the thing ‘back into touch’
by sending the Bill to a Senate Committee from which it will emerge just days before the
PM’s deadline at the end of this parliamentary session.
So we’ll see what happens there but let’s just strip the politics out of it just for a moment.
Does the argument that we need a new ABCC stack up?
Joining me now to chew this over is Wilhelm Harnisch, he’s Chief Executive Officer of
Master Builders Australia and Dave Noonan who is National Secretary of the CFMEU
Construction and General Division.
Welcome both. Wilhelm to you first. Make the case, make the argument why do we need
an ABCC.
WILHELM HARNISCH (CEO MASTER BUILDERS AUSTRALIA): Not only this Prime
Minister but other Prime Ministers and other government leaders over nearly three
decades have pointed out the need for a strong construction industry regulator like the
ABCC.
There have been at least three Royal Commissions, there was an inquiry instigated by a
Labor Government and we had a Labor Government that deregistered the predecessor to
the CFMEU the Builders Labourer’s Federation (BLF).
And the reason for all that was that over those two or three decades, just as the Prime
Minister stated and just as Justice Heydon has found, that there is an ingrained and
institutionalised culture of unlawfulness that creates an environment where criminality,
corruption and extortion can flourish.
The evidence given under oath to the recent Heydon Royal Commission quite clearly
demonstrates that those behaviours regrettably still exist and that is why we need a
specialist agency to deal with the extraordinary behaviours that were identified not only by
the Heydon Royal Commission but by the Cole Royal Commission, the Gyles Royal
Commission and the Labor instigated Wilcox Inquiry.
JONATHON GREEN: Well Dave Noonan, Terence Cole from the Cole Royal Commission
has broken cover during current debate and says that with the abolition of the ABCC
means that unlawful and inappropriate is again prevalent.
What’s your response to that?
DAVE NOONAN (NATIONAL SECRETARY OF THE CFMEU CONSTRUCTION AND
GENERAL DIVISION): Well of course Terence Cole was the Royal Commissioner that the
Howard Government when Abbott was Minister appointed to make recommendations that
were largely adopted not only in the building industry but in WorkChoices and of course
that is the exact point here.
You know the fact that Mr Cole supports the ABCC, he recommended the ABCC it’s not
surprising he wants its return. It’s a bit like Davros calling for the return of the Daleks. The
real point of course is that Wilhelm again is, as always occurs when the proponents of the
Australian Building and Construction Commission (ABCC) put their case, misrepresenting
the facts, and he’s doing so in this way.
The Australian Building and Construction Commission is not proposed to have any powers
in relation to corruption, it is not proposed to have any powers into violence or in fact any
other criminal matter. Those matters are outside the purview of the ABCC, of the current
agency the Fair Work Building Commission and its predecessor. The FWBC only has legal
power and the ABCC will only have power to implement industrial laws and they do not
include violence, they do not include thuggery and they do not include any criminal matter.
JONATHON GREEN: Do you admit though that those things do take place?
DAVE NOONAN: Well we saw one of Australia’s largest construction companies and a
member of Wilhelm’s organisation hire an outlaw motorcycle gang member to intimidate
our workers on a construction site in Brisbane. It was printed on the front page of the
Fairfax Media. And that company whose site they appeared at is a member of Wilhelm’s
organisation and in fact their CEO was appointed to Tony Abbott’s business roundtable, so
yes those sorts of things go on.
But our union’s got a very clear position, we oppose corruption. Where any of our people
have been credibly identified with corruption, and that can happen in any organisation,
we’ve dealt with it ruthlessly by sacking them an in many cases expelling them from the
union.
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The real point about the ABCC and Building Code attached to it is all about reducing
worker’s rights, for example banning any limitations to the casualization of the building and
construction industry, on banning ratios for apprentices to tradespeople, stopping unions
and they effectively put the ‘building commissioner’ into the position of arbitrating what and
can’t go into collective agreements. And that’s a walk back to WorkChoices and Wilhelm
knows it.
JONATHON GREEN: Wilhelm Harnisch this is all about productivity isn’t it? I mean it’s in
the title of the legislation.
How does a body with the investigative powers of an ABCC, how does that act to improve
productivity in the industry?
WILHELM HARNISCH: Jonathon just before I come that I want to rebut something that
Dave said.
The ABCC and indeed the Cole Royal Commission were never about WorkChoices. The
ABCC is about unlawful industrial behaviour, so let’s get that very clear.
Now, in terms of productivity, it’s a fancy word that economists use but let’s try to make
clear what it actually means.
Productivity means where workers can come to work and do their job for a fair day’s pay. It
means contractors and employers can go about their work without being threatened with
their business being closed down, it means women don’t get abused on building sites, it
means contractors can complete projects on time and on budget without unlawful and
unnecessary stoppages and delays.
In the end that’s what productivity means. Now Dave knows, because it’s a well-known
fact that unlawful industrial conduct adds between 10 to 30 percent to the cost of publicly
funded projects.
That is a cost that the community bears.
The CFMEU needs to justify why the community should pay a 30 per cent more for their
schools and hospitals because of their behaviour. The CFMEU are cheating the
community.
JONATHON GREEN: Do we need a reconstituted ABCC? That’s our question here on
Sunday Extra. Wilhelm Harnisch is CEO of Master Builders Australia and Dave Noonan is
the National Secretary of the CFMEU Construction and General Division.
Now Dave there is an issue with disputation in your industry. It is higher at a time when
disputation in other industries is on the decrease. In construction industry it remains high
against the general trend in the rest of the economy.
What’s the story there and is that something that bears greater scrutiny?
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DAVE NOONAN: Well if it’s ok Jonathon I’d like to make a comment on productivity.
Unlike Wilhelm I’m not a qualified economist. I started off as an economist and I’ve worked
on construction sites and been in the union for over 30 years.
Productivity I think in the economic world has quite a different meaning. Wilhelm just
described something but it wasn’t productivity. Productivity in the building and construction
industry is amongst the highest in the world.
Now turning to the behaviours in the industry, now no industry is perfect. There are
hundreds of thousands of people who work in the construction industry my organisation
has about 100,000 members across Australia and from time to time people do the wrong
thing.
Let’s talk about some of the things that really occur in the building industry. The largest
construction company in Australia has five convictions for serious breaches of health and
safety breaches in the courts.
Now what we’ve got is an agency funded at $35 million a year that does nothing but
pursue the CFMEU. FWBC refuses to prosecute employers who underpay workers and
that is endemic in our industry.
JONATHON GREEN: There is a point in this isn’t there Wilhelm? When the ABCC was
disbanded in its last incarnation it was beginning to look at issues of corruption and
malpractice on both sides. Should that be something that the reconstituted ABCC should
also do? Investigate corrupt behaviour whether by unions or employers?
WILHELM HARNISCH: The ABCC prior to its abolition did not have a bias either way and
nor will the re-established regulator that is proposed. It does not pick on unions.
The issue of safety is important, the issue of non-payment of employee entitlements is
important but there are Government agencies that do a good job dealing with them.
Every state and territory has a safe work agency. The Federal Government has
established the Federal Safety Commissioner and last year they introduced a drug and
alcohol policy – so safety matters are being addressed.
The issue of non-payment of worker’s wages is equally important and we have the Fair
Work Ombudsman who investigates and recovers unpaid wages for workers.
What we do not have is a regulator that can deal with the ingrained unlawful industrial
behaviour that unfortunately besets the nation’s commercial building sector.
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JONATHON GREEN: Is there a culture issue here Dave Noonan that needs to be tidied
up?
Wilhelm referred to the BLF earlier on our conversation and there is a sense of a legacy
into the CFMEU from the BLF of a pretty hardnosed approach to industrial conduct.
DAVE NOONAN: Well the BLF was deregistered over 30 years ago and I was there at
that time and it’s completely different now. And the culture of the BLF which achieved
many great things, the BLF did many good things, is not the culture of the CFMEU.
JONATHON GREEN: Getting both parties around the table is what we have attempted in
our own small way this morning on Sunday Extra. But there are deep divides as I think you
can hear.
The ABCC Bills are before a Senate Committee. Whether the ABCC is re-established will
be voted on perhaps at the end of this parliamentary session and perhaps at a double
dissolution election.
Ends…..
For further information contact:
Ben Carter, Director Media & Communications, 0447 775 507
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