Managing the Defiant Child
Transcript of Speaker
BY:
ANTHONY SCANELLA
BUILDING BLOCKS OF PARENTING
WHERE DO WE START?
So, where do we start? Well, here are some building blocks; and we can start at a
basic level. And the first thing that we have to consider is, again, your attitude. One of
the things that we encourage you to do, and you really need to practice this, is to be calm
at all times. You never punish or get at your kids through anger. When you're angry,
you're not thinking properly, you say things that you don't mean; and sometimes the
anger can get the best of you. And, in some cases, some people get so angry that they
spank their kids, or they hit their children, which is the worst thing that you can do. So
the idea is that in any confrontation, especially with the highly defiant child, you want to
remain calm. Okay.
If you can't remain calm, and you feel the anger starting to build, then walk away
from the problem. So, your child is in front of you and starts to talk fresh to you, and
you've having a little dialog, and it starts to escalate. And you can feel the anger
building. One of the things that you can do is a very simple strategy, is to say, "We'll talk
about this later." And walk away from it. Because it won't do you much good to stay
there and to be angry and to increase the anger in your child. So, we'll talk about how
you are to remain calm and what you could do in certain situations using language
patterns.
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Another thing that we have to talk about is if you aren't in rapport with your child,
you usually have some bad feelings going on or you're out of rapport with your child
means that you're not functioning the way you're supposed to. What I'd like to do is to
show you how to get rapport with your child when you are out of rapport with your child.
Or actually how to get rapport with anyone through body language.
Now, before we start—and I'm going to bring in my colleague, Sharon McCarthy,
in just a minute. Before we start, what I want you to do is to get out of your heads all of
that stuff that they used to write about in terms of body language in the books in the 80s.
They would say things like, this meant what. This meant that you were closed are
defensive; that you didn't want to talk; or whatever they assigned to this physical posture.
What this means simply is that your arms are crossed; that's all it means. It can't mean
anything else. All right, so if I come up to you—and let's say I'm a little chilly—and I
come up to you and I say, "I'd like to talk to you right now." And you go, "What the heck
is wrong with him? Look at the way he's standing." All right. So what I want you to do
is get that out of your heads because that's not true. All right. It simply means your arms
are crossed.
But we are going to show you how to use body language to gain rapport instantly.
And it only takes about a minute or two before you do that.
PARENTAL-CHILD RAPPORT, PART 1
I mentioned to you before about getting rapport with your child or your children.
We're going to show you how to get rapport almost instantly. It works on an unconscious
level through body language. What this also does is forces you to listen to your child
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when he or she is speaking to you. So this exercise not only can be tested immediately—
we'll show you how to test it—but it also is good to train you in how to listen when you're
children are opening up to you.
So I have with me right now Sharon McCarthy, my colleague, and we're going to
demonstrate how to get rapport with your children. And you'll notice whenever you're
sort of at odds with your children, if you pay attention to the body language, you usually
see parents doing something like this. They'll be standing over their child like this, or
they'll be doing this. So the child might be seated; you're standing. Or a whole bunch of
other things in terms of body language.
So what we're going to do is just show you a very simple thing to do. And you
could test it out yourself if you want to. The idea is to look at the person—and you can
do this standing up or sitting down; it doesn't matter—and to try to simulate, try to look
as if you are in a mirror; and you're taking on the same posture as that individual. So,
let's say it's two adults right now just for the sake of demonstration.
I would come in to Sharon, and I would look at Sharon. I notice the way she's
sitting. And what you want to do is to get into that similar posture. So I would cross my
legs—it doesn't have to be exactly sitting like she's sitting, sort of like very aloof; and I'm
a little more relaxed. But I want to try to sit up straight. My hands are in my lap. Or I
could simply do something like this. It's really basically the same kind of posture. So it
looks like we're sort of like in a mirror. And that's all you have to do.
As opposed to—now, watch this. You could see this instantly through the body
language. I come in and I look at Sharon—she could be my child, could be a friend—and
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I go, "Hi, Sharon. I heard you wanted to talk to me." So instantly you could see that
there's something wrong with that. What it is, is I'm right in her face; I'm in her space.
And that's a very uncomfortable thing to do. There's an easy way to know if you're in
someone's space is when they start pulling back like Sharon just did. But you don't want
to go into someone. And I've seen parents do that. When someone's so close to you, you
can't think, and you want to get away.
Here's another example. I've seen parents do this. I've seen colleagues do this at
work. When they're trying to get rapport. They would go in, "Hi, Sharon. Heard you
wanted to talk to me." Instantly you could see that I'm sort of looking away and not
really paying attention to the person who's opposite me.
So what we want you to do, again, is to take on the posture of the person. And
you start to talk. All right. So we start to talk. Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And that's
the end of the conversation. Now, during the conversation, suppose Sharon moves. So
she shifts her body posture. What I want you to do is to wait a couple—about 25
seconds; I don't want you to shift right away and do this. Because that would be
mimicking. So, Sharon was sitting like that; I was sitting like that. She shifts. You wait
about 25 to 30 seconds. In the course of conversation, you go, "That was a really, really
important idea that I had to talk to you about." And, so, then we start the conversation
again.
Now, suppose she shifts again—all right—shifts her body posture again. You
wait about 20 seconds. In the course of conversation, you would shift your body posture
to match hers. So you don't have to do it exactly. So you say, "Oh, there was another
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thing I wanted to talk to you about." Now, I don't have to sit exactly like this. I could put
my hand sort of in this kind of position. All right. Put one hand down and one hand sort
of casually up just a little bit. It doesn't have to be exactly like Sharon is sitting.
Now, how long do you do that? Well, you do this until you feel you have rapport.
And it's generally about three minutes and so on. But there's a way of testing to see
whether or not you are in rapport.
PARENTAL-CHILD RAPPORT, PART 2
And, again, it works on an unconscious level. While you've done this about three
or four minutes, you make a very dramatic move. You go something like this, "Oh, you
know there was something else that I had to tell you." And you wait about 25, 30
seconds. If she moves—now, it doesn't have to even be in this position. If she shifts her
hand like that within the 25 seconds, or if she comes into the same position as I am, you
have rapport. So she could even just move her hand, she could shift a little or, a lot of
times, they come right into the same position as you. As soon as you see that, when you
make your dramatic move, and you see a movement on the person opposite you,
immediately after that you have rapport. Then you could do whatever you want. You
could stand on your head at this point. You could do whatever you want. You're in
rapport.
Now, what happens if we're sitting like this; I make a dramatic move and Sharon
doesn't, in fact, move. Well, what I do is I go back to matching again until I feel that we
have rapport. And then I shift. And if she shifts, we're in rapport. So that's how you
would test to see whether or not you're in rapport with another person.
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Now, are there some problems? Well, sure, there's plenty of problems. A lot of
times, ladies and gentlemen, we see children or teenagers. They slouch over, they sort of
sit like this. So take on the position of a lazy teenager. Now, you don't want to come in
and go, "Sharon, I want to talk to you about something." Now, you could if you feel that
comfortable at your own home. But what could I do? What I want you to do is look at
the position. I want you to get in sort of this same position. You could lean back—now
you see my elbows? Hers are back here, mine are up front. But it's really the same
position. It's called cross-mirroring. All right. Do you get that?
Now, this is simply really being in the same position. A lot of times, for example,
teenagers or younger children will—and I know this from when I was doing therapy and
counseling—would sort of sit like this. Does that mean that you come in and you sit like
that? Yes, it does. You would come in; let's say your child is despondent or very angry.
You would come in and you would go, "Oh, boy, I know, things are really miserable."
See, what I'm really doing is getting into that child's model of the world. If I come in and
go, "Come on. Now perk up; sit up." That's not matching her. So what you want to do is
to start like this and start the conversation with one or two words. "Boy, it really feels bad
to be like this." All right. Eventually you will start moving up little by little and little by
little. And in a few minutes, if you have rapport, your child will come up. And then you
could start the conversation like you wanted to in the beginning.
So what you want to do—it's like the thing when you're very anxious and nervous
or you're worrying. And someone comes in and says, "Oh, don't worry." Immediately
that's not matching your model of the world, and you reject that advice. So you say,
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"Don't tell me not to worry." Okay. What you want to do is say, "Boy, you really look
worried. Well, sit down. Maybe we could talk about this." Now the person is starting to
attach to you. That's how you gain rapport with an individual.
There are other—if you go—for example, if you see two people in rapport, two
lovers, for example, in a restaurant. They're sort of sitting like this, and they're moving
their heads the same way. Yes, yes. It's like a dance. All right. And that's really what it
is. It's a psychological dance. They're in perfect rapport. And that's what we suggest
you do. This also—and it takes some practice—but it also forces you to be with that
person. That's the object of this exercise. But if you're standing like this trying to give
your child advice, or if you're doing this, or if you're doing this, you're not with your
child. And they know you're not paying attention. Nonverbally, you aren't paying
attention. So that's what we mean.
Now, so, we're starting with—again, to go back—we're starting with the basic
building blocks of how to establish rapport and trust and responsibility in your home.
And these are at the very basic level. So the first thing is that you have to be calm at all
times, for the most part. Now, we know that anger's going to come up. If you're a human
being, it's going to happen. The idea is to do this as much as you can when you're
conversing with your children, whatever it is. It could be something very bad; it could be
something on a minor level. But you need to be calm. The second thing is that you get
rapport. All right. That's the second building block. And we just showed you how to get
rapport.
SAYING NO
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Now, there's another thing that I've found that parents aren't doing. Before we
talked about tolerance and we're letting kids get away with so much. I think somewhere
along the line we have forgotten to say something that's really important. And we're
going to talk about that. But before we start this exercise, what I'd like you to do is I
want you to think about something. I'm going to ask you a question. The question is: If
you could reduce discipline, this idea of discipline in parenting, all the way down into
one word, what would you say that word would be? How would that encompass
everything that you feel about and think about when you hear discipline? Make that one
word. And I'm going to give you some time to think about this; about 15, 30 seconds.
And if you need to pause, you could press pause and think about it a little bit more. But
just take the time right now to think about what's the one word that you think about when
you hear the word discipline. How do you sort of encompass that feeling or that idea,
those beliefs and convictions, into one word?
Okay. Like I said, if you wanted to think a little bit more, all you would have to
do is press the pause button.
But let me give you the word, how I see this word, or how I would verbalize this
concept. I think the word is this: No. I think we've forgotten how to say no. I remember
growing up, and my father—even though I was a bad child, in the home I was an angel.
My father, if he said no; or if my grandfather said no; it meant no. And there wasn't any
other interpretation. Now, my father was a strict disciplinarian, but I knew my mother
wasn't. And I could get away with murder with my mother. So I always ran to my
mother. And most of my arguments and screaming and yelling took place with my
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mother because she was a pushover. My father, however, he had a look about him that he
just looked at me and I stopped dead in my tracks. And when he said no, it meant no.
Now, I'd like to demonstrate to you why saying no is a very powerful word. And
we've gotta to try to start saying no more often. And I think we'd save ourselves lots of
aggravation and long hours of thinking whether we did something right or wrong by
simply saying no. What I'd like to do with Sharon is to show you. Sharon's going to be
the teenager or whatever age she would like to be—11, 12, teenager; she could be 5 or 6;
it really doesn't matter. And she's going to start making excuses to—
BY:
SHARON McCARTHY
Use the phone.
BY:
ANTHONY SCANELLA
Use the phone. Let's say I took away her privileges of use. You abused the
privilege of using the phone, so I took away that. And she wants to try to convince me to
use the phone. And I'm simply going to respond by saying no. And here's how you do it.
Now, I know what happens when parents have to say no. We'll talk about that in a little
while. So, Sharon's the child.
BY:
SHARON McCARTHY
Dad, I know I'm not supposed to use the phone right now; but I really need to use
it. Can I just use it this once, and I won't use it anymore today.
BY:
ANTHONY SCANELLA
No.
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BY:
SHARON McCARTHY
But I need to get my homework assignment. I left school. I don't have my
homework assignment. I have to—you want me to do well in school.
BY:
ANTHONY SCANELLA
Yes, I do. And the answer is still no.
BY:
SHARON McCARTHY
But you know that my girlfriend Stacy's mom is sick. And I just want to call and
see how she is. And she has the homework. So I'm actually going to be using the phone
getting two things done in one short conversation.
BY:
ANTHONY SCANELLA.
I understand. And the answer is still no.
BY:
SHARON McCARTHY
Come on, dad. I really need to use the phone right now. And I'm only going to
use it this once.
BY:
ANTHONY SCANELLA
No.
BY:
SHARON McCARTHY
Come on. Yes. Say that—turn that no to yes. I know you can do that. Say yes to
me.
BY:
ANTHONY SCANELLA
I know I could do that. However, the answer is still no.
BY:
SHARON McCARTHY
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Come on, dad. I need to use the phone.
BY:
ANTHONY SCANELLA
I know you need to use the phone, and the answer is still no.
BY:
SHARON McCARTHY
Oh.
BY:
ANTHONY SCANELLA
Now, see what happens is Sharon is groping now for ideas because she's run out.
So it's gets frustrating. And then, of course, if that escalates, there are other techniques
we're going to show you later to stop that.
However, if you do this, here's what happens. Eventually your child will stop
thinking of ideas. What happens to you, however, is that you feel guilty; and you want
to—she's coming up with lots of excuses. Her friend's not feeling well, or whatever they
are. They'll pull them out of the air, and they'll have all kinds of –if you just stick to your
guns. And you notice, the other thing that I'm doing is I'm saying it calmly; I'm not
getting aggravated; I'm not getting myself all hot and bothered about something that she
wants to do. And the answer is no. And I think we need to practice that more often.
Now, we've done this exercise, for example, in schools with teachers. And we
have the teacher play the part of—one teacher play the part of a student trying to get out
of the classroom and another teacher who is taking on the part of the teacher as saying no.
And you'd be surprised because lots of them want to say yes. And that's the whole idea
of the exercise. So the more you say no about things that you think should be no, the
better off you're going to be.
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So, now we're talking about some very basic things. Be calm. We're talking
about get rapport with your child—and, before you discuss anything. And, if you're out
of rapport, you know how to get in rapport with your child. The other thing is that we
want you to be able to say no. And don't feel guilty by saying no. You have a right as a
parent to say no.
HOUSEHOLD RULES, PART 1
The next building block we would like to talk about has to do with writing rules.
Most parents do not know how to write good rules. Now, whether they're written or
they're said orally to the smaller children, it really doesn't matter. And there are certain
criteria that you must follow in writing rules.
Now, let's talk about rulemaking and why it's important to write good, specific
rules. Number one, in writing a rule, you should always tell your child what to do, not
what not to do. Most rules are written, believe it or not, in the negative. For example, a
rule will be written to say, do not run; or do not hit your brother. But when you state it in
the negative, it doesn't tell you what to do; it just tells you what not to do. So what do
you want your child to do? And that should be stated specifically—extremely
specifically—and it should be stated in the positive. When you have, for example, you'll
have parents—when I say something to you in the negative, what you think about is the
thing in the negative. For example, if I say, "Don't think of a pink elephant," you have to
think of a pink elephant. If a little child is walking with a glass of water, and you say,
"Don't trip," what she visualizes is tripping. What do you want the person to do? Walk
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with the glass carefully, one step in front of the other; something like that. Tell them
what to do.
So, rules also have to make sense; they have to be clear and reasonable; and they
need to be modeled by the parents. If you say to your child, "I don't want you yelling and
screaming in this house." Then you're at the dinner table and you're having dinner, and
your husband or your wife or somebody says something that irks one or the other, and
you go, "Don't you tell me what to do!" And all of the sudden you have broken, you have
shattered, that rule because you're not modeling. It doesn't mean that you never can yell
or scream, it doesn't mean that at all. It just means as much as possible to model the rules
that you want your children to follow. It doesn't make much sense if you tell your
children not to hit each other, all right, and your husband batters you or your wife slaps
the husband. I mean, that doesn't even make sense. And it's not in the realm of good
thinking.
So, the other thing is that rules should be said over and over and over again. If
you remember back as a child, the reason you remembered the rules that your parents set
up years and years ago is because they always said them. You could—you know, your
father would start the rule and you could even finish the sentence because you knew what
was coming. So repeat the rules over and over again.
You know, this idea about modeling is important. We tell teachers, for example,
in our QUICK Discipline Program, if you want children to raise their hands before they
speak, what you should do is to say, "I'm going to ask a question." Now, do you see
where my hand is; my hand is raised. And you do it over and over again so they
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constantly see what's going on. So, repeat the rules. They should be sensible rules; they
shouldn't be outrageous rules. But the most important part is to tell them what to do.
HOUSEHOLD RULES, PART 2
The second thing that's really important about rulemaking is that you need to be
consistent. For example, you can't have a father saying one thing and a mother saying
another thing and putting the child in between. So if the father says it's okay to come
home at 10 o'clock, and the mother says it isn't, you can't have that rule. You can't
compete with each other. What you need to do—you talk about good communication—is
sit down; listen to each other; write a list of what the father wants, what the mother
wants; and then you see where you can compromise or come to some agreement. You
need to do that before the rules are given to your child. If you're a single parent, you can't
say yes one day and no the other. That is very confusing to children; and the younger
they are, the more confused they get. So, again, write down what you want your child to
do in terms of rules, basic rules, and then share that with your child. But please be
consistent.
And the last thing is—and I think where many parents fall down when it comes to
rules is—once they make a rule, they very rarely follow up. Let me say something to
you. If you have a rule that says there aren't to be any drugs in this home, drugs are
dangerous, very dangerous for you, I don't want to see drugs in this house or anywhere on
your person, ever. If that's the rule, and you want to know if your child is taking drugs,
you need to go to the party. You need to show up at the party. Now, you'll embarrass the
heck out of your child, and your teenager will say, "What are you doing here?" Say, "I
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just want to see if there are drugs and alcohol at this party." You know, it's a question of
either embarrassing them or, in the end, really feeling bad that something terrible is going
to happen to your child. Because it's not a joke today with the drugs. There are very
serious problems with drug use in this country. So you need lots of supervision, lots of
follow through. So, once you make a rule, okay, you need to be consistent with those
rules, and you need to follow through.
In that respect, if that isn't done, the rulemaking is sort of just pushed aside; it's
not going to work. And, you know, kids will always push. And that's just human nature.
For example, we know the speed limit on some highways is 65. And we know that you
won't get a ticket unless you go over 65. So, when you drive a car, you'll go to 64; you'll
push it. Sometimes you'll go to 66. You'll keep pushing, all right, because there's that
leeway. You can't have any leeway when you're making rules, particularly rules that are
very serious rules that deal with drug and alcohol use.
The other thing is that you should have some very basic rules. For example, if
you want to have a list of chores or something that you want your children to do around
the house. It's a good training concept to start them very young with a couple of chores.
But only have a few rules. Kids cannot remember 15 to 20 rules. So what you've gotta
do is to focus in on what you want your children to do, sort of summarize some of the
things and combine some of the rules, and make just a few rules so they can remember. I
would say that 5 to 7 rules would be the most that you would have in any household.
And, again, if the rules aren't being adhered to, or if the rule is broken, sit down
with your child, involve them in making some of the rules—not all of them because as a
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parent, you should have some mandatory rules. However, they should be involved. That
would give them a sense of empowerment, a sense of control. If you involve them, if
they're old enough to understand. And we have done this rulemaking process with
children as young as four years old; children in kindergarten can make up rules very
easily. They understand that concept. And once you involve them in it, the idea is that
once a person has a say in something, very rarely will they break that rule. And if they
do, all you have to do is sit down and talk about why they're breaking the rule. And it's
real important to have few rules. They should make sense; they shouldn't be these
outrageous rules that you know that they can't achieve. And, so, that's basically what we
have to say about rulemaking.
HOUSEHOLD RULES, PART 3
But you have to be very careful about rules because that is sort of a basic building
block of good discipline.
Now, I'm going to throw out some rules to you; and you tell me, according to the
criteria—Are they specific? Are they stated in the positive? Are they clear? Some of
those things. Are these good rules? The first one is this. You tell your 11 year old never
associate with Laura. That's the rule. Now, is that a good rule or a bad rule? Well,
obviously, that's not a good rule. Never is stated in the negative. She may or may not
understand the word associate. Your child may not know what that means. Never
associate with Laura. That's a very vague rule, and it doesn't even make sense because
it's stated in the negative. Who do you want her to associate with? That's the question.
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And that's the way the rule should be formed. Only associate with so-and-so and so-andso.
How about this rule. Keep your hands and feet to yourself. Is that a good rule?
Well, I would say it's specific enough; it's clear; it's stated in the positive; and it tells kids
what to do. So, it's a good rule.
How about this rule. Do your homework every night at 6:00 p.m. If there is a
change, I will decide what time to do the homework. Is that a good rule or a bad rule?
Well, it tells your child what to do; it's very specific. It tells you time and what happens
if something comes up what to do. So I would say that that's a really good rule.
And the last rule. Is this a good rule or a bad rule? Clean the garage when you
have time. Now, I could tell you through experience—and if any of you out there have
teenagers—that that's not a good rule. First of all, they will not find the time because
they'll always be busy when it comes to cleaning the garage. Clean is a very vague word;
it's a small word, but it's a very vague word. What do you mean by clean? It's like
anything else. I remember when my son turned 17, and he bought his own car. He was
very proud. And he was leaving the house, and he said he was going out. And I said,
"Okay." And he went out, and he didn't come back for three days. I had no idea where
he went. When he came back, I said, "Where did you go?" He said, "I went out with my
friends." I said, "Where did you go for three days?" So you get the point? You need to
be specific, and you have to be clear. Otherwise, kids will push and push and push.
Again, they are born to wear you out; and you need to be calm and you need to be a little
smarter about this.
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There are some rules that I think that I said before that you can make up yourself,
and you tell your children, "This is the way it's going to be. These rules need to be
followed." For example, curfew is a rule that I think should be a mandatory rule. And,
remember, if you're not going to be consistent and you're not going to follow up with
your rules, get rid of the rule, throw it out. Otherwise, they're going to take advantage.
And they'll interpret rules, if they're not specific enough, they'll interpret rules the way
they want to. That's what teenagers, that's what little children, do. They're very smart at
that. And they have lots of stamina. So this will go on and on and on.
WHY DISCIPLINE FAILS
Let's talk about, just for a second now, why parents fail at discipline so much.
Again, one of the things that they do is they react in anger, or they let children argue with
them. Again, if an argument ensues or erupts, just walk away from it. Say, "We will deal
with this later," and walk away. Highly defiant children, those seeking lots of control,
love to get in arguments. And the funny thing is, they will argue, and they can argue, for
an hour straight. And they can go in the room, all right, and come out two minutes later
and say, "Can we go for ice cream?" as if nothing else happened. Meantime, you're
seething inside; and you're full of anger. So the idea is to be calm, and never argue with a
child.
Never, ever argue with a teenager. That's so very—I mean, parents do that all the
time when they're having trouble with discipline. It's one of the things that we ask right
off the bat. One of the first things—do you argue with your child? Do you argue with
your teenager? And when the answer is, "Yes," we know we have a problem here.
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So, arguing is not a good idea; getting angry is not—never dole out a punishment
or a consequence unless you're calm.
The second thing is that lots of parents fail because there is no plan. They don't—
we tell parents to anticipate what's going to happen; have a plan before you do anything.
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Suppose you have two
nine-year-old boys, and the day's activity is going to be lunch at McDonald's. Now, you
know ahead of time that in McDonald's they have videogames, and your kids like to play
videogames. You know it's going to be very crowded. You know that they have some
activity there where they can run around and play and jungle bars or something like that.
What you're going to do is to sit down and think about the things that could possibly
happen.
So, you would set up a plan for your children. And, again, for highly defiant
children this works in an excellent way. You would say to your two boys, "We're going
to McDonald's. I know it's going to be very crowded, so we might be crunched in. I
want you to be polite to each other; I want you to be polite to other people. I don't want
you to be running around and knocking over people. The third thing is that I know that
they have videogames there. You are each allowed to have your time with the
videogame. You're allowed one game a piece. That's what we're going to do. Anything
that you do other than that's going to cost you something."
So now they know what to expect. And you have it planned. And you really—
most parents who fail in terms of discipline never anticipate; they always think of the best
that's going to happen instead of the worst. I know that's stating things in the negative,
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but you need to plan ahead. So have good plans and always think and anticipate what
could possibly happen.
Being inconsistent is another reason why parents fail at discipline. Again, I
mentioned that before—one parent says yes, the other says no; or if it's a single parent,
yes, yes, no.
Impatience is another reason why parents fail. They don't take the time to sit
down to talk to children. If they get into some kind of discussion or altercation, it's
always like, "I don't have time to deal with this." They get stressed out; they wish that
kids would go to school; they don't have—you know, so they're very impatient. And
parenting takes lots of patience; that's key in good parenting.
Another thing that parents do—believe it or not—they have no rules; they make
up the rules as they go along.
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