South Carolina Political Collections
Oral History Project
Interview
with
James P. Harrelson
University Libraries
University of South Carolina
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 2
Interviewer:
John Duffy
Date:
December 14, 1999
Location:
The Harrelson home, Green Pond, SC
Transcriber:
Dorothy Hazelrigg
Synopsis:
James P. "Preacher" Harrelson (1919-2003) of Colleton County served in the South Carolina
House, 1957-1960, and Senate, 1963-1976, with distinction, gaining a reputation for his ability to
work within the system as a mediator to pass good legislation and derail bad bills. Prior to
entering into the practice of law in Walterboro in the early 1950s, Harrelson served as a pastor of
the Cottageville Baptist Church, c. 1945 to 1949, chairman of the Board of Trustees of the Baptist
General Board of South Carolina, 1948 to 1953, and a pastor with various congregations in the
Walterboro area, c. 1949 to 1952. He also served as president of the Colleton Young Democrats
Club, 1950 to 1958.
In this interview, Harrelson reflects on his experiences in the General Assembly, the nature of that
legislative body, and key legislation with which he was associated.
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 3
[Interview Begins]
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Senator Harrelson, will you tell us about your background, growing up in Georgia?
Well, I was born at Mullins, South Carolina, in Marion County, the day the
Versailles peace treaty was signed; that was June 28, 1919. My parents were living in Saint
Augustine, Florida, at the time, but my grandparents were in Mullins and my mother came up here
long enough to birth me. I think she thought I wanted to be a South Carolina politician, so she
wanted to do that. My father was superintendent of car records for Florida East Coast Railway.
He'd been a schoolteacher up until 1905, and then he went with the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad in
Wilmington, and then in January, 1912 went to Florida East Coast.
My mother and he were both born in Horry County originally. Her father was a Baptist preacher
and her grandfather was a Baptist preacher, and a lot of Baptist preachers in the family. They also
went to Florida in the early '90s and preached in Bradenton, Florida, and the first church in Live
Oak, Florida, and so forth.
I was raised primarily up in Saint Augustine, Florida, in my younger years, but I would always
come back to South Carolina to spend the summers and so forth, mostly in Marion County with
Mr. Frank Jones, who was an uncle, who was on county commission a long time, a surveyor and
timberman. Sometimes with my grandfather, who was a Baptist preacher, J. Davis Harrelson.
As I said, my father was a schoolteacher in Horry County. His father was RMC before the turn of
the century for Horry County, and his brother, Doc D[avid] Harrelson served in the legislature a
long time, and was also superintendent of education, Horry County. One of Doc's boys was a
professor of mechanical engineering at Georgia Tech for all his life. I had people when I'd hold
revivals up in Horry County say, "Was Carson your daddy?" And I'd say, "Yes." They'd say,
"Well, he taught me everything I ever learned about reading, writing, arithmetic. But he taught it
to the tune of a hickory stick." But then he went into railroading in 1905.
As I said, I lived in Florida. I was a second child. My older brother is five years older than me.
He now lives in Canada. He's a retired rural mail carrier, and was in the Pacific during World War
II. My sister was in the Navy during World War II. Her husband was a flight instructor, she was
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 4
married to Bob Laidlaw, Laidlaw Brothers Publishing Company, you may have taught from some
of their books. Laidlaw Brothers Textbook Publishers out of Chicago. My younger brother was
injured in Pearl Harbor. He retired, however, from the Air Force, after three tours in Vietnam. I
just ran across a clipping where he saved some man's life while he was stationed in Arizona. I had
another uncle, a lawyer, who was president of the Board of Education of Atlanta back in the
thirties, when two of the main high schools were built back in those days.
I entered the service as a member of the Army Air Corps at Langley Field, Virginia in December
'39. I was injured and subsequently I was medically discharged after four months in Letterman
General Hospital in San Francisco. I later went to Southwestern Baptist Seminary, our largest
seminary, in Fort Worth, Texas. I also studied law. My law study was primarily with other
lawyers or also by correspondence, primarily. Then I was in the ministry for several years, and
then I was injured, I had my back broken in three places. Result of that, I stood the South Carolina
Bar in 1952 and been practicing law pretty well after that.
Duffy:
You did what they call "read for the law."
Harrelson:
Read law, yes.
I took a three-day written examination which some of the
University students were being required to take at that time. Some of them flunked. Judge
Eltzroth, who gave me that book on Aristotle over there, he flunked that time. That's what he said
out here in my [eightieth] birthday party [in the summer of 1999]. I was the first one through
every day, but I guess I was just short on knowledge, but Ed Mullins said I made the highest grade.
I missed one question. And he gave me credit for that for my reasoning, because I realized I was
arriving at the wrong conclusion before I got through, and it was too long to go back, so I said,
"However, tenants in common can't hold adversely each other."
I practiced law for roughly forty-five years. I lost three cases at the hands of a jury. I got those
back on appeal. The fact of the matter is, I got one back from state Supreme Court and I got the
other one back before the United States Supreme Court. Justice Warren wrote the majority
opinion on that. That made law. That was a F.E.L.A. Railroad case, which I actually won it in
district court, got reversed in court of appeals. I told Judge Warren...
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James P. Harrelson Interview, page 5
Duffy:
Chief Justice Earl Warren.
Harrelson:
Earl Warren, yes. I rode with him from the World Series in Cleveland. I had
been at a Democratic meeting up in Toledo, and rode with him from the Series back to
Washington. I was then on the way down to Richmond to argue the appeal, which I was being
appealed. I told him I might be up to see him. So he wrote the opinion in my favor on writ of
certera without oral argument and reversed the court of appeals in my favor, Read, Burton and
Minton dissenting, I think I got a little plaque up there on that. I got that case back. So I felt like
I was a fairly successful lawyer. However, I practiced law forty-five years and never charged for
an office visit in my life. I charged what the traffic, I thought, could bear. If they needed
representation, I'd represent them whether they had the money or not. That included automobile
accident cases. I handled automobile accident cases in which I thought the circumstances were
such I'd give them all the money. I'm not complaining. I didn't miss any meals, and pretty well
saw the world, and so forth.
I was always a little bit interested in politics, because being even a minister, you're interested in the
welfare of the people and so forth. I ran for office one time, was not successful. I think that was
the first thing I ran for, was probate judge. I got kind of snookered into that race to keep me out of
a Senate race. Then I ran for the legislature, was elected, served in the House, two terms in the
'50s, and came out in '60.
Then I ran for the Senate, and there was five of us in the race, and I was successful in that race, and
went to the Senate in 1962. That was back in the time when they had one senator per county.
Then in 1966 we did a reapportionment.
At that time, had a compromise on getting the
reapportionment through, was fifty senators, instead of forty-six. That gave me five counties,
including Dorchester, and we served two years, and the state Supreme Court then determined that
we had to come back to the forty-six senators, because our state Constitution required forty-six
senators. One senator per county. Unfortunately, the state Supreme Court held us to the
Constitution of South Carolina but the United States Supreme Court didn't recognize that form of
government on the state level, which we had the little federal system, that senators primarily
represented the territory and representatives primarily represent the population.
So they
reapportioned us after two years, and after that I had four of the same counties, gave up Dorchester,
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James P. Harrelson Interview, page 6
took on Beaufort, and then there was Colleton, Beaufort, Jasper, Hampton, and Allendale counties,
which I went through three or four reapportionments as representing those counties with two
senators, with what's called numbered seats. I usually ran for seat number one, and [James]
Waddell ended up as senator of seat number two. Henry Walker, [in] that aborted two-year term,
Henry Walker from Jasper, was the second senator in that five-county [district], but Beaufort
County was not in our district at that time.
I got on the Judiciary Committee, worked very closely with Marion Gressette. In fact, when they
went to further reapportionment bill, Marion Gressette and I were pretty well the ones who wrote
those. Well, we wrote them in a way where they didn't split precincts and divide counties. We
kept counties as whole units, but that necessitated having the numbered seats situation. Then I got
on the Finance Committee, and I got up to vice chairman of the Finance Committee. Edgar
Brown, Rembert Dennis, and then Waddell and I were the two vice chairmen. I became chairman
of Agriculture [and] the Natural Resources Committee. I was also chairman of three joint
statutory committees that functioned for a long time. But I wrote the legislation for all those.
One was the Worker's Compensation Committee, which is composed of gubernatorial appointees
and people from the House and the Senate, and as a result of that, I rewrote practically all the
workman's compensation laws. Of course, they've been changed so much since I left the
legislature. At the time I started, the maximum benefit was, I think it had originally been
thirty-five, had gotten up to fifty dollars a week, nothing definite for back injuries, you went back
to work for a couple of weeks, you didn't have any more claim and so forth. I rewrote all those
bills and instead of having a hard, set figure for disability, I tied it into the average industrial wage
that's set by the state Employment Security Commission each year. So that figure got greatly
expanded all the time and they kept track with the economy. If the average salary went down, of
course, the benefit would go down. If the average salary goes up.... Usually they're mostly
going up instead of going down, provided specific compensation for back interest and so forth.
I was also chairman of the Medical Care Delivery Joint Committee, trying to get more medical
professionals into the small towns and rural areas. I was also chairman of the Water Resources
Joint Committee, and I was commended at the Governor's Conference for my contributions to
protection of water resources. However, some guy named Mason in my last year in the Senate,
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James P. Harrelson Interview, page 7
had campaigned, he put out something because he was trying to get a bunch of senior senators, and
he put me down as one of the "Dirty Dozen" on the environment.
Duffy:
Who was this?
Harrelson:
Some guy named Mason. I ran across this clipping the other day that he called it
the "Dirty Dozen," which was me, and all senior senators. I introduced legislation when I was in
the House first back in the '50s to create the Tidelands Commission and so forth to protect the
tidelands against development and so forth. I served on that commission, and I was appointed to
that commission even after I got out by Governor Hollings. When I introduced [the legislation] in
the Judicial Committee in the House, it was opposed by the chairman of the Committee, Gus
Smythe, who was from Charleston, because he primarily represented large landowners and so
forth. But I was able to get it through, which converted into the Coastal Council, which two,
three, maybe four years ago was put under the Health Department.
I was chairman also of the state Reorganization Commission, which had been laying dormant since
back in the '40s. The newspaper said that was revitalized under my chairmanship. I introduced
what's called sunset legislation; that state agencies, every five or seven years, I don't recall which it
was, had to prove their right to continue to exist. Of course, we had proliferation of so many
boards, commissions, agencies, and so forth. Sometimes they're overlapping and duplicating the
work. The purpose of the Reorganization Commission was to see that that didn't happen and if
they couldn't be justified, then they'd be discontinued or curtailed. Joe Riley from Charleston,
mayor of Charleston, was in the House. I was in the Senate. But we wrote the legislation
creating what's now known as DHEC, Department of Health and Environmental Control. That's
the title we gave it and it stuck. They call it DHEC. I was cited by the Environmental Health
people and put on a task force; I was vice chairman, chaired by.... I can't recall his name, a
professor from Clemson University. I never could get the idea of where Mason got the idea of I
was a "Dirty Dozen," except he was wanting to get rid of all senior senators.
I guess the escheat law that became law of South Carolina, I kept introducing it. Finally it was
made law by being a permanent provision of the state budget bill when I was on the Finance
Committee, which is known as escheats, all these funds and banks and insurance companies held
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 8
it, nobody'd claimed it and so forth. I thought the state ought to have the benefit of using them in
the meantime. Of course, anybody ever could claim them; they could file a claim and get them
back. That escheat law was basically my baby, but I think it got into the actual law as part of the
permanent provisions of the appropriations bill. And the deferred income of state employees, Mr.
Ellis, the state employees association Executive Director. Every time he sees me, it reminds me
that he and Purvis Collins, who was head of the retirement system, [of] my work in developing the
right for the state employees to defer their income until their retirement years, when the tax rate
wouldn't be as high, and so forth, as a benefit to them. That was basically a baby of mine.
Gosh, I didn't keep a journal, I didn't keep a diary, and I was somewhat of a negotiator. I wrote the
rules reorganizing the Senate, limiting the members to four committees. You have to do the art of
the possible. And art of the possible included, to get it passed, I had to allow some of the senior
senators to remain on as many as five committees. But you could not chair but one committee,
and some of them chaired several committees, as you probably recall. In order to get that through,
I had a little stumbling block, particularly with Rembert Dennis, because he loved to be on the
Wildlife Commission. To be on that, you had to be chairman of the Fish and Game Commission
in the Senate. And he was also the Finance Committee chairman. So I wrote legislation
providing that where an ex officio member served on boards and commissions that by the virtue of
their position, they could designate a different member, other than the chairman of the committee.
I went over and had a little trouble getting that through the House. I went over to Jim Moss, I said,
"Jim, I can't get this reorganization of the Senate through and limit the committees, unless Rembert
can stay on the Wildlife Commission as ex officio and give up the chairmanship of the Fish and
Game Commission." And he said, "Well, we'll get that passed right quick." So they did, and the
present rule now is that they limit to four committees and one chairmanship in the Senate. That
allowed the Young Turks to get on committees and eventually become chairman of some of those
committees.
Duffy:
Who are the Young Turks?
Harrelson:
Young Turks are usually the first-termers.
first-termers. They become old Turks.
Young Turks are usually the
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
Duffy:
Harrelson:
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 9
Were you a Young Turk?
Well, I recognized early in getting in to the Senate, that if you were going to do
anything and get anywhere, you had to learn to play the game. You had to be a little bit of a
realist, and somewhat of a diplomat, and become somewhat of a negotiator. As Rembert Dennis,
at a dinner for me one time, got up and said I was a good negotiator and arbitrator, and worked
things out. I picked up one of those clippings where there was a bill about the hot lunches in the
school program bottled up. Couldn't get out. It was on the floor. And the clipping said,
"Senator J.P. Harrelson presented an amendment allowing a certain option to the local school
officials," and it passed.
Lot of times, those kinds of legislation I thought had some merit but it was in problem, so I'd try to
get in and slip in an amendment or something that could override the opposition, and maybe it was
somewhat of a compromise, but democracy is government by compromise. Compromise is not
bad as long as it moves you forward. Compromise that moves you backwards, of course, is bad,
but I think you always want the whole loaf or none; you usually end up with none. A piece of loaf
is better than none, provided that's not stale bread that you get.
I wrote legislation providing for the incorporation of cities and towns for Edisto Beach, which
Hilton Head used, incidentally. It wasn't designed for Hilton Head, but that's how Hilton Head
became a town. I rewrote a law on annexation of parts of one county to another county. As a
result of that, Colleton County took two big hunks out of Charleston County. I provided the first
county-wide garbage collection system, you know, the dumpsters. I did that in Colleton County;
first county in the state to do that.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
When you served in the Senate, this was the period before home rule.
Home rule was adopted while I was in the Senate. Dick Riley was one of the
proponents of that. I worked with him on that. I think home rule was adopted about '74 or '75.
Colleton County had at the time, the commissioner form [of government], even though it had a
Board of Administrators which wrote the budget and presented it to the delegation, which they
could make changes in, which was a little bit more than commissioners, and the Board of
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James P. Harrelson Interview, page 10
Administrators were elected people. They were not appointed people. But the state Supreme
Court struck down the commissioner form of government because they said the commissioner
form of government depended on the state legislature passing the annual supply bill, which the
appropriations bills are normally called supply bills. It couldn't pass legislation after that for
special legislation for individual counties. So one of the pieces they knocked that down on. But
I provided, by legislation, a five-member county council, single-district plan, in the event that the
county did have a referendum on changing [the] form of government, or were forced to do it by the
Supreme Court. Then they'd have the five-member county council set up based on giving black
minorities a chance to get representation on it.
However, Colleton County, after I came out of the legislature, ended up with the court writing a
plan for them, which is just kind of a hybrid plan now. Which is two from the eastern district, two
from the western district, with staggered four-year terms, and then one member at large, which is
not exactly one of the forms in this Home Rule Act, but it still exists in Colleton County as a result
of a federal court order. Of course, they have to reapportion every ten years, and they've
reapportioned once or twice on that, but still keeping the same style.
Duffy:
When you were in the legislature, what kind of role did the various governors play?
Did they have very much control, very much power? If any, how'd they exercise it?
Harrelson:
Fortunately and unfortunately, they didn't have a great deal of power, except the
power of influence. If they were a strong governor that knew how to deal with the legislature,
they seemed to have more power. If they tried to buck the legislature, they just sat over there like
a eunuch, you know. Couldn't breed any.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Who were the strong governors, in your opinion, of the ones that you worked with?
Fritz Hollings was a fairly strong governor. Of course, he did the technical
education program, good on the education, set up about the first state-operated technical education
program of this type that we have, probably in the nation. And, many other states came over and
studied our system. I think he was a pretty good forerunner in that. George Bell Timmerman
was a good governor but he was not really aggressive.
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James P. Harrelson Interview, page 11
Dick Riley, of course, I didn't get to serve really with Dick. I served in the legislature with Dick,
but Dick was pretty strong on education and of course, he was strong on the Home Rule, and he
and I didn't always agree but we were always great friends and supporters of each other. We
didn't disagree as to objectives, sometimes on how to reach that objective. As Dick would say
when I'd get up and say "my good friend Dick Riley," he'd say he's waiting for the shaft.
John West, Lois, his wife, and my wife were classmates at Winthrop. John Drummond's wife was
[a] classmate with her, too. John made a little better than average governor, I'd say.
Donald Russell made a fair governor, but Donald had difficulty working with the legislature.
He's originally from Mississippi, and probably accustomed to Mississippi-type governors. The
fact of the matter, the 1964 National Democratic Convention in Atlantic City, the Mississippi
governor was fixing to walk out of the national convention and Donald was trying to lead us out
there in the same direction. I got up and made my speech. Olin Johnston said, "Preacher, if it
hadn't been for you, South Carolina walked out with Mississippi." But we did not walk out. I
told him I didn't come there walking, I came in a hundred million dollar airplane and didn't expect
to walk to the convention, still expect to ride in a taxicab but he couldn't find one, still had to walk
anyhow. But that was when Lyndon Johnson was nominated; he'd served a little over a year after
the assassination of President Kennedy. I was a good friend of Donald's, but I recognized he had
some difficulty working with the legislature. His wife used to slip me some good Cuban cigars.
I was a cigar smoker at that time.
Of course, I served with Jim Edwards. I just got a letter from Jim here a day or two ago. Jim and
I were good friends, even though he is a Republican. I served in the Senate with him and then
served under him as governor. Edwards was a fairly good governor. But he was a Republican
and I disagreed with him a lot on his objectives. I don't think Republicans have the same
objectives as I have as far as welfare of the people are concerned, the interests of the people.
They're a little bit more special interest oriented than others.
Of course, I'm a Democrat. No question about that. I was a delegate to several national
conventions and I served on the Credentials Committee in 1972 for ten days in Washington. I told
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James P. Harrelson Interview, page 12
them they're trying to change the rules of the party for Mr. McGovern. They're known as
McGovern rules and we've been kind of cursed under those rules ever since, a little bit. They're
trying to change the rules for individuals rather than for the benefit of the party. We were put in a
challenge in Miami and I spoke to the Miami convention in '72. That was the year of the dirty
tricks by Nixon. We were challenged because we had two black delegates from the Sixth District,
who had gone through the process of being elected, but McGovern wanted to replace them with
two white women, who had not gone through the process. I defended the situation. Of course,
we won the challenge and we were seated and Governor West asked me to defend the challenge,
and I did.
When we started having a strong two-party system in the state, I was in the House again. That
was from '91, '92, '93, '94. [David] Wilkins was running for Speaker Pro Tem of the House. I
told Bob Sheheen, who was supporting, Bob was speaker. I said, "Bob." He said, "Oh, but he'll
be a good fellow, he won't run against me." I said, "Bob, when it comes to legislation, the state
comes first. The welfare of the people comes first. If we're going to have a two-party system,
then we ought to organize on a two-party system." "Oh, he'll be all right." I voted for..., Lucille
something or other, black lady from Charleston.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Whipper.
Whipper. I voted for her. I think about eleven, twelve of us voted for her. I
wanted to support Joe McElveen from Sumter. Because Joe was a good fellow. You know Joe.
And Joe was a good fellow, very capable. But Joe couldn't get the support of Bob Sheheen and
without the support of Bob, you couldn't do it. Bob called me two days after the election, says,
"You got a place down there on your farm for a farm man? That [so?] is going to run against me."
So I said, "Well, I told you, once they got control of the House, they wouldn't give you the time of
day." It's true. The Speaker controlled it as a Republican. And controlled the memberships and
everything.
[End of Tape 1, Side 1; Side 2 begins]
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
Duffy:
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 13
A lot of your contemporaries switched parties.
But you remained loyal, as a
yellow-dog Democrat. Why do you think you remained steadfast...?
Harrelson:
Well, I think a lot of those that switched are opportunists. A lot of them switched
because frankly, the Republican Party, though it is more conservative than the Democrats are,
perhaps, but most South Carolina people, even the Democrats, are fairly conservative people.
Compared to Northern liberals and so forth.
But they switched party because it was an
opportunity, it looked like the Republican Party was the party where they could do better. Power.
But more than any one single feature that created the Republican Party of South Carolina was the
race question. I think that was a white flight situation. Course there are those people who have
Republican leanings and philosophies, that was based not so much on race as it was on special
interests and big government and not so much big government, but big business and big
corporations, and so forth.
I think the race question was the single greatest factor in the development of the Republican Party
in South Carolina; and it has been, because the whiter it is, the more Republican is the district.
The blacks made a compact in the House with the Republican Party; they gained four or five seats
and lost influence. Republicans don't need them, because they can pass anything without them.
The smallest minority in the House today is a white male Democrat. They're very scarce. The
blacks, I think, lost influence, they lost ground, but they got more seats. When they were in
counties like Colleton County, where the vote was forty-eight to fifty-two percent, and so forth,
like that, any white candidate didn't do something for the black people, he just couldn't get elected
either. But now they don't have to. In fact, there's some candidates that can appeal a little bit
more to race a little bit, and win easier in some areas. So that, probably, I think, was bad for the
state. Back when it was a one-party state, people thought mostly as state senators, they thought
mostly as state representatives, and they thought about the interest of the people and the welfare of
the people, even though there were some who thought a little bit otherwise, of course. But now
they think too much more of partisanship. What affects my little frog pond, because my little frog
pond's all I got to satisfy. So I'm not interested in what's going on in the state, just what I can do
for my little frog pond and get myself reelected. Of course, that goes back to this single member
district stuff, and I think that’s created a lot of bad government situations. They're more parochial
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James P. Harrelson Interview, page 14
in their thinking than they used to be.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
You think that single member districts broke down state leadership, basically.
I think it did. I had a good friend who was the secretary of the Alabama Senate,
which pays more money than the governor does down there. But he just retired after about thirty
years down there. He and George Wallace got reapportioned together in Alabama, so he didn't
run. He was the youngest mayor in the United States at one time, at Clover, Alabama. But he
wrote an article that somebody sent me from Montgomery, which he's talking about it. He says
that now people didn't know how to debate, they didn't know the rules, and there's no great
debating society anymore in the Alabama Senate. Of course, I figured he must be getting ready to
retire when he wrote that situation. Not going to get reelected as secretary. He did retire. Big
article written up in that Alabama, Montgomery paper and was sent to me by some friends in
Alabama.
I was an active Democrat and a Young Democrat, even when I got into the '40s, I was called the
oldest Young Democrat in the United States. I traveled all over this country in behalf of
Democratic Party, and making a few talks here and there, and Fritz Hollings, when he was trying to
run for president that time [1983], he told me over at Marion Gressette's funeral, said everywhere
he went somebody asked him did he know "Preacher" Harrelson? That was my activity. I'm not
saying that as braggadocio, but I've been in every state as Young Democrat, and then as senior
Democrat.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Who were some of the Democratic leaders that you've dealt with over the years?
Well, of course, my memory's getting faint now. I ran across a picture of me
sitting down having lunch with Hubert Humphrey. I sponsored a dinner in [the] Florence Country
Club. It was not the Country Club dinner, but we used their facility. Novak and those fellows
were down for it, and I think, was it Kefauver that ran with him, I believe, in '68? I sponsored a
dinner for them. And I had Adlai Stevenson, Jr., the senator Adlai Stevenson, down as the
speaker for that dinner. It was a fund raiser for them, Humphrey, and I think that was '68, when
they had the convention in Chicago. They had all those riots and so forth there on Jim Daley, the
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James P. Harrelson Interview, page 15
mayor of Chicago.
I talked with Harry Truman on a number of occasions. He liked to stay in the old Blackstone
Hotel when he's in Chicago. I used to prefer the Palmer House. I was in his suite one night with
him, talked with him about an hour. He was just like an old common shoe. Anytime I ever
talked to him, he was just an ordinary fellow, said, "The buck stops here." He didn't blame
anybody but himself for any of his failures. I remember one time that he appointed somebody to
some position and one of his advisors said, "You can't appoint him. That fellow's a son of a
bitch." Now, that's a quote. He said, "Yes, but there's a lot of sons of bitches out there that need
representation." The vice president from Minnesota…was a protégé of Hubert Humphrey...
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Mondale?
Walter Mondale. Names get away from me a little bit more now. Used to be on
letter writing terms with him, and so forth. Of course, Olin D. Johnston was a great friend of
mine. We used to go back and forth.
Duffy:
What was Olin like? What was your impression of him when you were a young
man?
Harrelson:
Olin was a man of the people. He wrote the model rural electrification act. He
also helped start worker's compensation and state benefits for employees, which is an original idea
that originated in Germany, worker's compensation.
He served as governor twice, not
consecutive terms, as you recall. Of course, he was [U.S.] senator for a long time and I used to
visit him in Washington a lot. I could go to Olin and get results like that. He could pick up a
telephone and get results. Today, everybody's scared of the newspapers. Scared if they pick up a
telephone they'd be accused of doing something improper. But if a constituency can't go to their
elected representative, who can they go to? You've got a mammoth government. Who can you
go to? You go to the people in agencies and the bureaucracies, and you're just a face, you never
get a satisfactory answer. I find that dealing with bureaucracies and bureaucrats in Washington,
by the time they got to give you an answer, they change agencies. Somebody else is in there.
They've moved on to another agency, a thing like that. But if you had a senator or a congressman,
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 16
that they can pick up a telephone, not that he was doing anything improper, not that he was making
them do something that they shouldn't do, but he'd get some action out of them, one way or the
other. I find that Olin Johnston was capable of that. Mendel Rivers could do that. To some
extent, Fritz and Strom can do it.
But it's not like the old days. I know you can write Strom a letter, and you can write Fritz a letter.
You'll get a call in two days from Strom's office, where he's given it to his top staff, and he can take
care of that. Of course, you'll get some action out of Fritz, but it's a little slower. But that's
staffing problems, I think. Of course, Fritz was down here on my birthday. My birthday's the
twenty-eighth, but had the party on the twenty-seventh. He takes care of his constituency, fares
better when that six years comes around in the Senate, and the two years comes around in the
Congress. Because people are going to remember you not so much by what the newspaper said
about you, maybe, as what you did as far as they were concerned.
Duffy:
What about Thurmond? You mentioned Thurmond. Thurmond was defeated by
Olin Johnston way back [In 1950, then Gov. Thurmond unsuccessfully sought to unseat incumbent
U.S. Senator Olin Johnston]. Did you support Olin, obviously?
Harrelson:
I supported Olin. I supported Olin when Fritz ran him [in 1962, then Gov. Fritz
Hollings opposed Johnston in the Democratic primary].
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Olin beat Fritz, too, didn't he?
Yes, he beat Fritz. And Olin died, and Donald Russell was the governor. Bob
McNair was lieutenant governor. And they made a deal. The fact of the matter, at Olin
Johnston's funeral, I was in line with Frank Jordan, and I think Walter Bristow, or some of them.
We were leaving the funeral and saw McNair and Donald Russell and their wives standing there by
their cars at the station, talking. I said, "That's right now, Donald's going to resign, Bob's going to
made governor, and appoint Donald to the Senate." Which he could of course, you know; you
can't appoint a congressman but you can appoint a senator, because senators theoretically represent
territory. Up until the turn of the century, senators were selected by the various state legislatures,
anyhow. So that's what happened. But Donald Russell didn't survive the next election [1966],
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 17
because that's when Fritz went in.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Duffy:
Harrelson:
A tremendous amount of resentment toward him [Russell].
Oh, yes.
And what about the way Thurmond got to the Senate?
Well, Burnet Maybank died after the primary. And too late to hold a primary and
get it on the ballot, because it's in September. So the Executive Committee, it'd just happened in
North Carolina and they didn't fuss about it, but it happened in this state, the Executive Committee
nominated Edgar Brown. And Edgar Brown; I wrote some of Edgar's flyers for him, with Bob
Martin, the state judge at that time but later became a federal judge. He asked in a meeting with
Edgar Brown, several of us, that he'd get me to do some of that. The newspapers showed you
every day how to write in Thurmond's ballot, even in some of the old type machines they had in
those days, because most places had a paper ballot. How to write in Thurmond's name. He got
millions of dollars' worth of free publicity from the press, and so he won as a write-in candidate.
And then, of course, later became a Republican. In 1948, of course, he ran as a Dixiecrat [for
President], carried I think four or five Southern states, including South Carolina, and became the
official nominee of the Democratic Party in South Carolina.
But I was one of those people that helped, with Maxcy Collins and Guy Whitener. We didn't get
the secret ballot in South Carolina until 1950, called the Australian ballot. In 1948, it was open
ballot. You had to go up and ask for the Truman ballot if you wanted to vote for Truman. I was
pastor at the Cottageville Baptist Church at that time, and I went up and I had to ask..., because I
was Executive Committee of the Democratic Party, too. I asked for the Truman ballot. Because
there's no secret, you had to ask for it. I think I was one of eleven people at Cottageville to vote
for Harry S. Truman in 1948. Of course, Harry Truman surprised everybody pretty well and was
elected anyhow.
Strom was a Dixiecrat, ran on the Dixiecrat ticket nationally, as a Dixiecrat ticket, but he was the
official nominee from South Carolina at that time. We had to raise the money to print the ballots,
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 18
spread them all over the state, so we could vote for Harry Truman in that year.
I don't know, as far as legislation is concerned, I wrote a good bit of legislation, but I doctored a lot
of legislation. Either to help bury it or to help have it to survive, depending on what the situation
might have been.
Duffy:
Were you in the legislature when the Confederate flag was put up [in 1961]?
Harrelson:
Duffy:
'61, '62, I was out.
That's what I thought.
Harrelson:
Yes, I wasn't there in '61, '62. Newspaper called me the other day, "What about
that?" I said, "Fortunately, I don't have to answer that question, because I wasn't there in '61, '62."
Duffy:
What about the rise of the Republican Party, people like Thurmond switching to the
Republican Party, Floyd...?
Harrelson:
I was sitting by Floyd Spence in the old Township Auditorium, in the Democratic
convention, and the question came up about loyalty to the Democratic Party, meaning the national
party.
And Floyd Spence jumped up and raised cain about that, that's when he changed.
Because I used to sit by him in the House at the time, back in the '50s. But he changed on that and
because he was opposed to the liberalism of the national Democratic Party. Of course, this theory
of limited terms actually started with the liberal Democrats in the urban North. It's the only way
they could figure to get rid of Southerners in Congress was to have term limits. That's not new,
it's old Northern liberalism, but the so-called conservatives are preaching it today. Of course,
those that get elected on that term limits, they decide it's not a good idea after they get elected.
They want to stay a little bit longer.
Of course, [First District Congressman Mark] Sanford is giving up in Charleston, but he didn't
make too much of a congressman. I know him personally; I ate supper with him the other night.
You can't do much for people now. Ideally, it's fine to be against government and against all this,
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 19
against all that. But the government is a great big pie. And it's going to be sliced. And if you
don't know how to slice it, your people are going to get shortchanged and they're going to pay the
same amount for the ingredients in that pie, they're going to pay the same amount of money.
Sanford didn't believe in slicing into the pie, but it's being sliced, and of course, his district is not
getting any of their share of that slice.
Duffy:
Has the First Congressional District had any kind of strong representation since
Mendel Rivers?
Harrelson:
Not really. Of course, you'd hardly recognize the old First Congressional District
from what it is now. They've gerrymandered these districts so. I'm in the Sixth District. Jim
Clyburn's my congressman.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Oh, really?
I'm in the Sixth District. Floyd Spence's got part of Colleton County, he's got the
white Republican part of Colleton County and then Jim Clyburn's got the rest of it. McKinley
Washington's my senator, and W.P. Lloyd is my representative. That's the district I live in. Of
course, Lloyd represents the same district I did when I went back to the House in the early '90s.
Of course, the court's now beginning to back up a little bit. You cannot gerrymander just for the
sake of race alone. They're also backing up on a lot of this busing and quotas in the schools
anymore. I see up in Boston even, a judge reversed an old court order up there that required
busing and so forth. It'd served its purpose.
Duffy:
One of the big changes between the start of your career and the rest of it, was the
admission of the blacks to vote in South Carolina.
Harrelson:
I was always in favor of the black voting because I was always an advocate of equal
rights for everybody. I always got good black support. Some of the black community still call
me their senator. In fact, sometimes I was called a sort of bad name about it, because I was a
strong supporter of the blacks. They called me a "lover," you know, and so forth. But the blacks
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 20
voting, probably as a unit, because in the old days, the few blacks that voted, voted Republican,
because that was the party of Lincoln. But blacks became Democrats because the Democrats did
more things for the black people, and did more things for working people, black people, and
maybe the poorer white people. Of course, when they get to the point that they feel that when
they get elected to office, that they're only supposed to represent black people, then that's bad for
government. They must remember that they're there to represent all the people in their state or in
their district or whatever it is. I don't think people should limit themselves to representing just the
people in their district. They got to look at the people as a whole. People in the state legislature
have got to look at what's good for the state of South Carolina.
Now, I think a child in Jasper County's entitled to the same quality of education as a child in
Greenville County. I can remember when Greenville wasn't a really rich county, but it's been so
industrialized, it's a rich county. The education of a child in Jasper County's going to affect the
quality of life in that whole state of South Carolina. It's going to affect the pool of workers in
South Carolina, by their education. Because the pool of workers have to come from all over the
state and elsewhere. People, say, in Greenville County, they don't want to do anything to help
somebody in Jasper County because they can take care of their own pretty well. Programs that
might cost them a little bit of money, have to be a little missionary-spirited to go down in Jasper
County, because Jasper County can't afford to do what Greenville County can do for its children.
Some people call that the Robin Hood theory. But I believe in that, and Democrats generally have
been a little more liberal in that respect. Whites would criticize because they said they didn't
represent the blacks, but the whites had to represent the blacks to get elected when the blacks had
the franchise given to them and were admitted. In the old days, in the Democratic Party, you
know, you didn't have to be a registered voter. The primary pretty well determined the election.
You just signed the party roll book, you sign the book and come in and vote. A lot of
businessmen and professional people didn't register to vote because November didn't count much
anyhow, but they didn't want to be called for jury duty. Now, of course, you got so far with it, if
you got a driver's license you're automatically in the jury duty pool, and so forth. I don't know
whether I answered your question or not.
Duffy:
What's your reaction to some of the people that you served with, like Bryan Dorn?
Bryan ran for governor, too [in 1974].
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
Harrelson:
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 21
Bryan and I are personal friends. I gave him some bad advice one time in the First
Baptist Church in Charleston. He was sitting by me and he said something or other about running
for senator. He ran against Maybank. I said, "Well, it's about as good a time as any." He didn't
make it against Maybank. Then he went back to Congress, because you couldn't do both in that
same election. Then he went back to Congress. Bryan was in anti-civil rights positions in the
early '40s and so forth, probably hurt him. It hurt him in his campaign for governor, because he'd
changed his philosophy, but they used it against him. They used some of his old votes against
him. I think he was an able congressman. Of course, he was a man in a position of authority,
power that he could utilize, and I think he made a reasonably good congressman. He was a good
Democrat. He was on the wrong side of the civil rights question in the early days.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Duffy:
Harrelson:
He shifted on that.
He shifted on it.
What about people in the Democratic Party, like Don Fowler?
Don Fowler, I helped bring him up through the Young Democrats, and so forth.
He was a big Young Democrat.
Don is an able fellow. Of course, he's never run for elective office as I know of,
and he probably was a good professor of political science. But Donald, I think, is a good
Democrat. But he's also got into the public relations business. In the public relations business,
this time you represent Republicans, next time maybe represent Democrats. This time maybe you
represent Joe Smoak, next time you represent somebody against Joe Smoak. Then, if you
represent clients as a lobbyist, which he does, that can put you in some ticklish situations,
sometimes. If you represent the client, he may be against what your political philosophy may be.
Duffy:
years?
What's the role of the lobbyist in the legislature? How has that changed over the
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
Harrelson:
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 22
I think lobbyists play an important role, because it gives you two viewpoints. Of
course, if there's a lobbyist for a bill, there's a lobbyist against a bill. Sometimes individual
legislators may not know all the ramifications of a bill, pro or con. They can listen to the
proponents and the opponents and then they can do a little research on their own, they come up
somewhere in between. Like I've chaired a lot of committees, and I always found out, listen to the
experts and arrive at your own conclusions somewhere in between. I stated, when I served on the
Wildlife Commission, that we could take two scientists in there, equally qualified, they'd come up
one hundred and eighty degrees apart, scientifically, in their opinions. Of course, you have to be
able to analyze and sift. I thought I was pretty good at analyzing all that stuff and coming up
somewhere [with] what I thought was the right answer, the best answer, in between the two
extremes you suddenly run into. But I think lobbyists helped to that extent. When a lobbyist
gets to the point where he starts to, other than just sheer influence by the weight of his argument,
when he starts to try to get a vote by an improper means, then, of course, that's bad. But when
lobbyists, by the sheer weight of their argument, are trying to get your attention, I think that is
helpful to the legislator, because it helps him to raise questions that he might not have thought of
before. But then he's got to arrive at somewhere in between the two schools of thought.
Duffy:
Why do you think South Carolina had a relatively less violent history of the
implementation of civil rights in the state than, say, Alabama, which you mentioned?
Harrelson:
We get more agitation right now than we did twenty years ago. I guess some of the
agitation is probably generated from both races. I think that basically, maybe, that may be not
always treated as real equals, but respected each other races. Had a respect for each race.
Though we had separate, they were not always equal. Certainly our schools were not equal.
They were separate but unequal. And I think that we've reached a point today where a lot of
people in the black community want to get back to their community schools. But they expect to
get an equal quality of education, even if they go back to that.
Albert Watson, when he ran for governor, he used a lot of racist material in the newspapers and so
forth. He wasn't successful, fortunately. But other than that, most of our people who've been in
public positions and politics, even though they may have felt differently in their heart, they tried to
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 23
keep it from being made a point of their arguments or their showing of racism. I think that's
helped a lot in the past.
But right now, this county was always good and in the last few years there've been some things
happening in the county government, and the lack of representation of the people. We have an
eight-member delegation, only one of which lives in the county. The majority of the registered
voters in his district is in Beaufort County. He's not particularly competent. We've got two
black senators; they represent, between the two of them, thirty-three percent of registered voters in
the county. You've got one white senator, who represents sixty-seven percent of the voters in the
county.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Who is that?
[Larry] Grooms, Republican.
But he lives over in Berkeley County.
And
McKinley Washington represents thirty-nine hundred registered voters in the county, and [John]
Matthews represents about twenty-seven hundred registered voters.
That's a slight white
majority, even in the ones they represent. But they don't need Colleton County, because they've
got five or six other counties they get varying hunks out of, you see. And then in this county, we
have a five-member county council, two blacks from this district. I got a black councilman too.
Everything I vote for is black dominant in this county. The two black Democrats from this side
joined in with a white Republican on the county council and they formed a little power clique. All
written up in the papers. Of course, the white Republican chairman of the county council couldn't
have been elected dogcatcher when he got out. Anyhow, they made a deal, the three of them
elected a black man who lives across the road from me right down here. Elected him county
administrator, when the county administrator retired. Got the best contract in the state. Highest
paying, can't break it, and all kind of fringe benefits and so forth. And that created a lot of
resentment in the county.
Of course, then he turned around and gave a job to the white
Republican, gave him a job as county planner, of course, made a pretty good salary.
[End of Tape 1; Tape 2 begins]
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
Harrelson:
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 24
[House member] Bill Bowers, who teaches at Salkehatchie, and lives in Hampton
County, he's got the whole town of Walterboro pretty well. But a little thin string from it to
Hampton County, and he represents about sixty-five hundred...
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Colleton County, is there only one person from the county?
Only one person lives in the county, and the majority of voters in his district are in
Beaufort County. But it is a Democratic district in November, but hardly anyone in Beaufort
County votes in the Democratic primaries.
Because even a lot of the blacks vote in the
Republican primary in Beaufort County because it's the only way they can cast a meaningful vote
for local officers. If they'd vote in [the] Democratic primary, Beaufort would eliminate the one
from this county in the primary. But in November, the Democrat majority in November, so
you've pretty well got to be a Democrat to win it. We're a large county. We got little counties all
around us that got resident members, but we just don't have any. Of course, we had nobody
looking out for us. "Preacher" wasn't there.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
The last senator from this county was Peden McLeod, right?
The last resident senator was Peden; he became code commissioner and Director of
the Legislative Council. Bill Howell just got elected long enough to get the judgeship, before
Peden.
Duffy:
What in the long haul would you consider to be the most important achievement you
had here in the legislature?
Harrelson:
I guess reorganization of the Senate.
As Dewey Wise says, "If he's not
remembered for anything else, he ought to be remembered for that."
Harrelson:
Of course, on that Reorganization Commission, I had a lot of agencies that started
straightening up some stuff because I held a lot of hearings in them. The DHEC bill, we put
environment and pollution control and all that, I put under there, because pollution is a question for
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 25
health, so it ought to be in the health department. Because they can be too easily influenced by
industry. I'm not anti-industry, I am pro-industry, but I'm pro-people, too. If industry pollutes
and sickens and kills the people, then they're going to create a bad environment, hurt business and
growth, so I think that and some things I did for other health programs. My support for education
programs and what I even did for the education in Colleton County, compared to what had been
done for it before. As I said, I was considered a negotiator, and a lot of the things I did were not so
much directly by writing legislation as I did by trying to stop what I thought was bad legislation, or
try to mend crippled legislation so it could be passed. I was just an average Joe. I just think I was
a pretty good, average senator, but not outstanding particularly.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
If you had to do it over again, is this the career that you'd choose for yourself?
I don't regret it. I could have been elected a judge a few times. But I felt that
people didn't elect me up there to look for a judgeship, or look for another job. Of course, I
wouldn't mind that seventy-five thousand dollar pension the judge gets down there. I could use
that. But as I said, I'm not complaining. I never charged for an office visit in my entire life.
You go to the average lawyer's office, he starts the clock at a hundred, two hundred, three hundred
dollars an hour, now. But I've given out a lot of advice over the telephone, a lot of advice in the
office, and of course, maybe the advice is worth what you pay for it, as the old saying goes. But I
just like people and I like to serve people. Both as a minister and as a lawyer, and as a politician.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Duffy:
Harrelson:
How long did you remain active as a minister?
I pastored churches in this county for nine years.
And you also played a major role in the Baptist Convention, didn't you?
Yes.
In your younger days?
Served on the Baptist General Board. I went to Southwestern Seminary.
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
Duffy:
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 26
You were at the Democratic Convention in '64, '68, '72. '72 was the one that
nominated...?
Harrelson:
McGovern.
He didn't even carry his own state.
I think he carried maybe
Massachusetts and the District of Columbia is the only thing he carried. And we've been
suffering under the McGovern rules ever since. Party-wise. '64 was Atlantic City, and '68 was
the Chicago convention.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Duffy:
Hazelrigg:
With the riot.
They had those riots and so forth.
Any questions that you can think of that we should ask?
How about your own campaigns? Did you ever have a hard time with your
campaigns for election?
Harrelson:
Well, I ran one time, I think, without opposition. I was always outspoken, even
my enemies said they always knew where I stood. I always wrote all my own ads, handled my
own publicity. The last time I ran for reelection to the Senate, some of my friends and supporters
said, "You need to get somebody else to handle that, because you've got five counties you've got to
campaign in. This'll be a tough election." And that was the year they were trying to get rid of a
lot of senior senators. And got rid of some of them. Don Fowler's firm was hired to handle it,
and I spent some time arguing with some of his crowd up there. They run ads in the paper in one
county that hurt me in another county. I had to, on my own, just call the newspapers and cancel
some ads they proposed. But I got into a second primary, that time. I led the first primary. I
think I got forty-eight, forty-nine percent of the vote in the first primary. And had a wild man
named Clyde Ackerman, later disbarred from practicing law...
Duffy:
Who was that?
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
Harrelson:
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 27
Clyde Ackerman. He always fought me. But later he got to telling people I was
the best senator he ever had. But he just would tell all kinds of things on me. Just, "Sue me! I
got a million dollars." But he knew you can't sue anybody in a political campaign under the New
York Times decision. You can lie about them, unless they can prove you did it with malice, they
can't do a thing about it. He supported my opposition, and they really supported me in the first
primary when he was a candidate himself, and in the second primary, I got edged out. Incumbents
have trouble in a second primary, because they show vulnerability, forced into a second primary.
But I always had tough campaigns, except one time I ran without opposition. But I got edged out
in the second primary in '76.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
And that was by...?
Bill Howell. He went up there and got elected judge. One of those judgeships we
created before I left. Of course, I didn't create one for myself. Because I could have been elected
to one. But I could have been elected to one before that. I could have been elected to one where
Clyde Eltzroth was elected, but Clyde said, "If you're not going to run, I'm running." So I helped
Clyde get elected. And that's what started the screening of judges. Because he got so much
criticism.
But Clyde made an excellent judge.
He got criticized so much by The State
newspaper, that's really what brought about this screening committee they have now.
Duffy:
Is there anything else you can think of that we haven't asked you, that you might want
to comment on.
Harrelson:
There's probably lots of things I could think about.
Hazelrigg:
Some of those other people on that list?
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Duffy:
Edgar Brown?
He was chairman of the Finance Committee when I first got on Finance Committee.
And your impression of him?
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
Harrelson:
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 28
Edgar was a very, well, I was thinking about the word "shrewd." I was looking at
one of those clippings the other day. Hugh Gibson, remember Hugh, reporter for the News and
Courier? Hugh called me "shrewd." He called me "shrewd and powerful." I didn't recognize
all that. I did my homework. When I get up to speak, I've done my homework. But Edgar
Brown was shrewd. He understood state financing. Of course, he was from Barnwell County;
he sure took care of himself. But Edgar was probably good for a conservative, fiscal policy in
South Carolina, kept us in a good bond rating. Edgar was recognized pretty well nationally,
party-wise. Edgar would tell you, "Now, what you need? What you need? What you need?
What you need? Okay, okay, okay. Now, I want THIS." In effect, that's about what it
amounted to. He had a tremendous influence, particularly through the Finance Committee, over
the Senate and over the state government. Of course, he and Sol Blatt was always on the surface
battling, but they managed to make out pretty well for themselves.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Some of the black senators that you served with? Kay Patterson?
I believe Kay came right after me.
DeQuincey Newman?
Quincey Newman. Quincey was very able. He was very liberal and he was a
militant, but he was not a violent militant. He was a militant, say, for civil rights and equal rights.
But he was a fellow that was reasonable and he recognized the reality of things. But he was very
capable.
Duffy:
Did we talk about [Robert E.] McNair? What was your impression of McNair as
governor?
Harrelson:
McNair was a good diplomat. He knew how to reach out and persuade people
pretty well. I think he's developed a large law practice, and sits on several boards, like Georgia
Pacific, it used to be, the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad, stuff like that and those things. But he has
made his time as governor, and his experience as governor, has parlayed into a very profitable and
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 29
large law practice which I don't think he has to try any of the cases, kind of like the governor from
Georgia, from several terms back, who lived in Augusta, developed a tremendous large law
practice that brought in twenty-five, thirty million dollars a year, and all he did was go by
occasionally just to get his check. They got their business based on his reputation and so forth.
But Bob McNair has developed a very large, lucrative law practice, which he has very capable
lawyers handling, but personally, he doesn't have to try too much of the cases. Just like I have a
nephew in Chicago, he's managing partner of a law firm that occupies five floors in the building
across the street from the Palmer House. He manages around five hundred lawyers, got offices in
eight cities, and got international offices. But he doesn't have to try many cases, but he has to
manage all those other lawyers. It's a very profitable, lucrative practice, and that's what Bob does.
He does it well. But he was a persuasive type governor. I don't know of any particular feat that
he was outstanding for.
Duffy:
The last Republican governor, [David] Beasley. What was your feel about him?
He was a relatively young man.
Harrelson:
You mean "Old Pumpkinhead"? I thought he was a pretty shallow fellow. "Little
Bit" liked to brag. Maybe you think I'm bragging too, but he liked to brag about accomplishments
that he didn't have. I served with him when I went back to the House. He served in the House
with me. Of course, he was Speaker Pro Tem of the House at that time. David Wilkins was
elected Speaker Pro Tem to take Beasley's place. I thought he was a hand-picked candidate by
Carroll Campbell and those, and they thought they could manage him. But they didn't manage
him very well.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
When he was in the House with you, he was a Democrat at that point.
Yes. And then he flipped over. They kind of hand-picked him but they didn't
manage him too well. So he didn't stay there very long. The fact of the matter is, in this county,
I was chairman of the Democratic Party for a long time. I was not chairman of the party and the
party was getting in bad shape in this county, and they prevailed on me to take over the
chairmanship last fall to get through the election. I said, "I'll take it just to get through the
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 30
election," which I did, and got through the election, I resigned. I brought Jim Hodges down here.
Somebody asked Jim Hodges who he knew in Colleton County, he said, "I know 'Preacher'
Harrelson." I brought him in down here and I had a Republican friend of mine that used to
support me to the hilt financially, all he could, and got him to support Dick Riley back then, and the
fact of the matter, even got him to be a Democratic Executive Committeeman in his precinct when
Dick was running. But I got him to support Jim Hodges, and he said, "Well, do you think we can
have a dinner for him and get fifty people there?" I said, "Let's try for two hundred." He
underwrote the entire cost, paid the caterer, and rented the building, and everything. So I called
fifteen people together and we presold the tickets.
We had about two hundred fifty people there, and Jim Hodges came down early, and he was very
good one on one. Had [state Senator] John Land down and John introduced him for me, because
John talked more about me than he did about Jim Hodges. John Land was a page when I was in
the Senate. He was a House page. Said "The senators up there now, look like kindergarten
people compared to the days when 'Preacher' was up in the Senate." Anyhow, we raised a good
bit of money, and we carried this county by a thirty-eight hundred majority. The fact of the matter
being, his majority in this county equaled the black vote in this county. So he broke even with
Beasley even without the black vote in this county. I forgot what the question was now.
Duffy:
Harrelson:
Just getting your impression of David.
He had a bad case of hoof and mouth disease. In fact, I was in Jim Hodges' office
last Monday, a week ago yesterday. I talked with him about an hour. John West was waiting to
come in. I guess they were fixing to have that little conference on the flag. I asked him did he
still have some of Beasley's people on his staff, because he was getting a little of that hoof and
mouth disease himself. I asked him one particular thing, did he think he could win the battle with
John Rainey. He said, well, he thought so. I said, "I don't like to pick battles unless I'm pretty
sure I can win them." He said, "Well, he put his thumb in my eye. I had to do something." But
I'm not so sure he's going to win that battle, either. [Rainey was the Republican chair of the
Public Service Authority.
Gov. Hodges sought to remove Rainey by executive order in
December, 1999. Rainey contested his dismissal, arguing that the Authority is a unique agency
whose chairman may not be removed by the governor. The state Supreme Court ruled in Hodges’
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 31
favor in June, 2000.]
But anyhow, South Carolina has had, compared to other states, weak governors. I think overall
through the years, it hasn't been maybe too bad. Because if the governor has a lot of power, and
he's a bad governor for four years, it's kind of hard to survive under it. The reason the power was
taken away from the governors in this state over a period of time was because we had a few bad,
and they were Democrats, because all there were were Democrats. So came along with Jim
Edwards [James B. Edwards was elected governor in 1974, becoming South Carolina's first
Republican governor since Reconstruction], of course. Took the power away from them through
the years, took away the pardoning power, because some of them just opened up the prison gates
and pardoned everybody, like Cole L. Blease and some of those.
They reduced the power of the governor through the years and the legislative became the dominant
power in the state. I guess there've been abuses in that. But they're closer to the people,
probably, than the governor. Most people don't know the governor. Most people did know their
representative. People used to know their representatives and their senator because they were
county wide and district wide, and now they split precincts, and split counties, and gerrymander
around so that most people, half the time, don't know who their senator, who their congressman,
who their House representative is. I think that's bad for government.
The dominant force, of course, was we had the most citizen participation of any government in the
world, I think, in the old South Carolina system.
Because we run it through boards and
commissions, citizen participation. Unfortunately, sometimes people [who] served the boards
and commissions became rubber stamps for the boards and commissions instead of really the
policy makers. I served on the Wildlife Commission for nine years and I never did just take the
agenda as they presented it. I'd ask questions. The chief of law enforcement in boating told me
one day, "I come in here with my mind made up absolutely." He said, "When you get through
talking, you change me a hundred and eighty percent." Somebody's got to question somebody.
You've got to question it. The lawyers get back in there in their library sometimes and question
each other. If you don't, you're going to get a question in your courtroom that you don't have the
answer sometime. Don't take anything at face value. You've got to question it.
South Carolina Political Collections Oral History Project
James P. Harrelson Interview, page 32
[I would like to add some legislation that was mine outright or started by me that ultimately
became law:
Such as the escheat of abandoned property in bank and insurance companies that I kept proposing
and finally became law, I believe, as permanent provisions of an appropriations bill. Annexation
of parts of other countries - coauthored by Dick Riley by bob-tailing a House bill languishing in
the Senate Finance Committee. Colleton took in Edisto Beach and later another bite out of
Charleston County. An act that brought about the incorporation of the Town of Edisto Beach also used to incorporate Hilton Head Island.
My act that caused Blue Cross/Blue Shield to change from an unregulated association into a
regulated mutual insurer - the Medical Association fought it but Senator Dr. Frank Owens told
them they might as well accept it because “Preacher” has the votes. It brought them from an
association with questionable assets into the largest health insurer in the state.
Much legislation on health and education, aeronautics, codification of ordinances, etc. Recently I
was at the hospital where three of my newborn great grandchildren were being tested for P.K.U. I
remembered that thirty-five or forty years ago I wrote the law requiring P.K.U. testing of newborns
and asked myself--”How many children have been saved from mental retardation because of this
test?”’
And, such things as starting the first county-wide waste collection in the state, that spread to all
counties.]
[End of interview]