The Relational Brain 101 ­­ full transcript Episode 2 Cameron: ​Welcome to Therapists Uncensored, a podcast where therapists freely speak their minds about real life matters. Ann: ​Hi, today's episode is on the basics of the relational brain. This episode is going to provide you with a foundation for future episodes, and if you listen closely, it's going to really impact how you understand what's happening, both inside you and in close relationships around you. So Sue Marriott's going to start off with an introduction, and then we'll move into a three way discussion with myself, Ann Kelley, and our other co­host Patty Olwell. Sue: ​Hey there, we are so happy that you have found Therapists Uncensored podcast and that you're giving us a listen. So welcome aboard! In today's episode, I'm going to be speaking with my co­hosts Patty and Ann about the idea of building security in ourselves and building secure relationships. The fact is, not everyone has been fortunate enough to start off with a general, basic, organized level of security. And some of us have gotten the short end of the stick actually, and come preloaded with not as much security as other people. So the good news is, no matter where you start, everybody has security within them and the capacity for it. And we are going to break it down so that you understand what parts of the mind are operating in this positive place, and how we can turn those on, and cool off some of the problem areas, so that we build security no matter where you begin. We are very excited. It's actually part of why we even started this podcast ­ to get the material out as widely to the world as possible. And also to connect listeners to more information about it. So we will have show notes and resources and all kinds of things if you like what you're hearing here. Okay, so the first thing, the foundational thing, is a little bit about the mind. So we're not going to go into tons of stuff about neurons and glial cells and things like that, but we do want to know that there's three specific structures that really affect our sense of well being. And the more that we understand them, the more that we're going to have control, and insight, and awareness, and a greater capacity to manage ourselves. And even­ you might be doing okay, but maybe your partner is having trouble, so if you can visualize what's happening in their mind, it's really going to empower you to help them out and to help them get back into this secure place. So, this episode is going to be about those structures of the mind that you need to know which are three things: the prefrontal cortex, the hippocampus, and the amygdala. Okay, now let's decode this and pull this apart about why you need to know these structures, what they are, and what they do. The prefrontal cortex is where we want to begin because that's where we are going. That's where we want to end up, so that's the most important part, and that's where we are going to be focusing on. (Sue?) How do we keep ourselves connected as much as possible? If you imagine looking down at a brain, the top part that you most typically think of when you think of a brain is the cortex. The front of the cortex, the front half of the part that you can see, is the frontal cortex. And then the front half of that, just imagine your forehead, is the prefrontal cortex. That is where, if our lights are on all the way up there, then we are going to be in our best self. We are going to be acting like adults and being able to be flexible and adaptive and keep other people in mind as we're speaking and care how we are coming across and really be able to get a sense of what's going on in the mind of other people. So that's the goal, that's where we want to be. Just to be super specific for any of you science folks out there, right in the middle of your forehead, if you imagine a heart between your eyes, that is the orbitofrontal cortex. That's really the gold, so if you're using any visualizations or anything, those neurons we want to be firing as much as possible. Now why don't we just hang out there, right? That's a good place to be, so why aren't we there all the time. Well, we are going to talk about that. Sue (in conversation): ​Well we have other characters on the scene. So that's the highest part. If you drop down, there's a middle part of the brain called the limbic system. Some people think of it like the mammalian system. It's basically where you assess if you are safe or not safe, is there danger. So kind of like if you imagine a fox with his family near a den, and a new fox pops up. Their ears are alert. They check it out. They are going “is this a friend or a foe?”. And they are communicating quite fluidly with each other about…”is this guy coming to hurt somebody or is this just a friendly fox?”. So there's a lot of emotional communication that's happening, but it's at the level of mammal. It's not that higher part of the brain. There's the prefrontal cortex and the limbic system. Within the limbic system, there's another interesting structure called the hippocampus. People don't talk a ton about it, but it's going to be really important in building this theory about what works in relationships because the hippocampus is what modulates memory. Particularly memory where we know we are remembering and where we can tell stories about ourselves. Patty: ​So autobiographical memory? Sue: ​That's right. And later we will go into more about this related to long term memory and how emotion is stored. It's really quite interesting. But the more that we can remember our past and our future, then when something happens in the moment, we are going to be able to stay more connected to our higher part of our mind. So the hippocampus is what regulates past, current, future. Almost think of grappling hooks that go backwards and forwards, and if we can keep that part active, we are going to be less likely to do the third piece, which is to drop down into the amygdala which is a really interesting almond shaped structure that is lower down. It's more primitive. It's kind of more Fred Flintstone. The best way to think of this is that this is your real fight/flight freeze. And that's the thing scanning for if everything is okay. If you think about a home alarm system or I personally like to think of it like a friendly Rottweiler because I was raised with Rottweilers. They look really scary, but they're actually big teddy bears, but they are good at fending off danger. So...think of it as your guard dog. So the amgydala's your guard dog. Which is great when there's actually a threat, right. And one of the things that is actually interesting about the amygdala, is that its’ one purpose is to exaggerates things particularly related to threat. Which is why when we get activated in our amygdala and it shoots out all this cortisol and the norepinephrine and adrenaline. It is getting us activated to take care of ourselves. So particularly when that threat response is going, guess what happens to our prefrontal cortex? Patty: ​I'm guessing it goes offline. Sue: ​Exactly. It gets a little flooded. It gets drowned out and it's not as important according to our biology as the threat system cause it has to handle the saber toothed tiger first before we can think about freedom and morality, right? Ann: ​I agree. It's not only not as important, it's actually an interrupter. If you have a saber toothed tiger coming at you, and you stop to pontificate about whether this is a nice one or a threatening one, that in and of itself could lead to extinction, so intentionally our survival mechanism is to disconnect any of that frontal cortex at the time that we perceive threat. Patty: ​I like to think of it as speed. We have a very sophisticated prefrontal cortex that is very good at rational thought, but it's a slow system. When you drop down to the limbic system, this is fast. Is this how you get out of the way when a car is coming at you. It's how you run from the saber toothed tiger. This is the part that's really designed to protect your life. Ann:​ And then the amygdala is the hyperdrive. Sue:​ And when that's going, it affects our perception. So if we are perceiving some level of threat, if the guard dog goes grr ­ it's not good at discerning what's actually threat. It's the Fred Flintstone. It's very primitive. So that's summarizes­ let's go over it again. Prefrontal cortex, the hippocampus which does what? Patty: ​Long term autobiographical memory. Sue​: Very good. And short term. And the last one is the amygdala which is what? Ann:​ That's the get the hell out of here response. Sue: ​Or I'm going to get in your face response. It's anxiety or anger. Ann (in voiceover):​ Okay, now that we've covered the specifics relational brain structures, we are going to move on to how this affects us in our everyday lives. In this half of the episode, we are going to discuss how the deepening of our understanding of our relational brain can actually change the way that we engage with ourselves and our relationships and deepen our understanding and compassion and intimacy. Sue: ​So the problem with that, and this all goes back to, so what about the brain, but how does it affect relationships? If I am in a low grade threat response, I think of it almost like riding on the accelerator just a little bit where I am a little revved up, then Jaws music is playing in my mind, and so my perception of what's happening, let's say the door slams, I am going to think ­ What the? Why'd you slam the? I'm going to be more activated versus if the activation is low and I’m in my prefrontal mind and my lights are all the way up to the top of my body and the same door blows shut, partner comes in door blows shut ­ I mean, see? I just said it. The door slams, but my perception is going to be oh the wind must have caught it or oh my gosh what's wrong? You must have had a­. My interpretation of events is affected. Patty:​ And your ability to stay connected to your partner is there when you're up in the higher part of your brain as opposed when you're down in your limbic system. Sue: ​That's exactly right. When we are up high, we can say huh, it may have been this or it may have been that. She's not texting me back ­ it could be this, it could be that. I am able to get in the other person's shoes and have lots of possibilities. Maybe this, maybe that. Once I am activated and the limbic system is online, the Rottweiler is going grr, then I just know that whatever is already in there is what I am going to be thinking. It's kind of like my ghosts come out. So abandonment and my interpretation will be really different. Patty: ​And historically if you've grown up in a very volatile family and somebody slams the door today, you're right back in your family of origin. Sue: ​Right, but what's really interesting about that is that you don't know it. Becasue you're not remembering your family of origin. You're attributing your threat response to the person in front of you. Which gets a little­ that's not a great thing to do, I've found out. Patty:​ How'd you find that out Sue? Sue: ​Oh many many examples. Then related to relationships, we are wanting to grow security so that I stay in my prefrontal cortex as much as possible, and I help my partner stay in her prefrontal cortex as much as possible. Sort of drawing out the best of us. So next time your partner is really upset with you, just think it's not me, it's her amygdala or his amygdala, it's his Rottweiler is going. (Laughter) Ann:​ A really great idea is to tell them that at the moment. (Laughter) Sue: ​That hasn't gone so well for you? Ann: ​It reminds me, it harkens back to a previous podcast we discussed. The part about knowing your partner's language of love is very important. And we often talk about that. And what makes someone feel loved. But as I mentioned in a previous podcast, knowing your partner's language of security ­ this is exactly what we are talking about. The more you can know their language of their history and what actually feels like an alarm bell to them. But what often happens is because their alarm bell is so different from ours that we actually get angry or frustrated and keep telling them don't have that as an alarm bell. But that doesn't work because what y'all are bringing up is such an important point. All our amgydala's are shaped way before the relationship and developed and what is an alarm for us we just can't tell ourselves. Getting back to our original point, there's the highjacking, we can't just tell ourselves oh that's not a threat because our bodies respond so quickly and without our frontal cortex. And it is a threat no matter how much our brain tells us it's not or how much we try to tell ourselves. Patty: ​Yeah, and one important thing that I think we need to keep in mind as we talk about the brain is that histories and destiny. A lot of the new research is about brain plasticity. Sue: ​That's what is so exciting about this. It's why I want to get it out to the public. Go ahead. Patty: ​And what brain plasticity means is that if we practice new behaviors, we can actually change the structure of our brains. So yes, how we were formed in our families, and we carry this patterns, but playing with new patterns actually changes our brain. I think that's the most hopeful part about all this really exciting work that people are doing in neurobiology and relational science. Sue:​ I totally agree. I am so glad you said that, it's awesome. To make good on our promise to make this usable, I mentioned the thing about see it and don't take it personally. See it as your partner's dysregulation. Because one of the things that happens is like if I get approached harshly then guess what my Rottweiler is going to do. It's going to want to defend me. So once that happens, my perception begins to narrow and I begin to think of black, right? The other thing it does in that system is that we get into this morality and ethics. So it's like innocent and guilty. Black and white. I'm feeling this so it must be true. Remember I've lost contact with the top of my brain so I can't go well it could be that or it could be that. That's not where I am. My feelings are hurt, so therefore you must have meant to hurt my feelings. I am not a part of that. I am innocent and you are guilty. That's part of what the limbic system activation does. So if we can know­ when I am activated, because I've lost my prefrontal cortex, I'm really going to believe those things. So even just talking about it and knowing it doesn't necessarily immediately help. But here's the thing, if I can know some of my cues that I am in my limbic reaction, that my Rottweiler is going, so at least then I can notice Oh I am cueing to I am not feeling any vulnerabilty, I feel totally justified, I feel righteous. If I can begin to have, you know, like when you're skiing there are warning flags. If I can have a few warning flags of what my personal limbic reaction would particularly look like or what my automatic thoughts are when I am activated, it won't stop those thoughts, but it's begin the battle towards the top of the mind. Because that's an observing part. So we are in better shape to go huh, I am not sure I am assessing this correctly, but still feeling really mad. But be like Okay, I think this is an overreaction. I am still going to be overreacting, but you can feel like even having the awareness that it is an overreaction is already turning those lights on where we want to go. And with space and by pausing and by going slower, we will be able to­ because you talked about time­ because the limbic is so fast, it needs time. So that's a good time to take a walk, to get outside, to slow down your breathing. We want the slow wave to be happening. It's literally giving time for the prefrontal to come back online. And it takes time because it is slow. It's the newest kid on the block. Ann: ​That comes back to when we have­ relationships are probably the most common way that we can experience the highest threat and the highest security. Sue: ​That's so true and that's totally related. Ann: ​Totally related because they happen in the same element. It's really confusing because when our most secure object then becomes our most threatened object, it is­ Sue: ​Or threatening object­ Patty:​ And when you say object, what do you mean Ann? Ann: ​When the person in our life that we count on to be the most secure loving person, our partner or our object, becomes the most threatening one. Because if the person is most secure now doesn't understand me and is coming at me and feels very threatening, it is very common for us to get completely dysregulated and upset. This is why we save our worst selves, sometimes, for our partners. Because they are the ones that can scare us and threaten us the most and how difficult that is. And so one of the things that you just said, to get practical, one of the things I love to suggest, or I need to do that when I am in conflict, the walk is an amazing. I love to suggest what I call a two sided walk. If you are really dysregulated or upset at your partner, high threat, and like Sue mentioned, can see all the signs of it, the first sign you're in threat is self­righteousness. The reason we get angry, number one, is cause it feels good. It is releasing all sorts of chemicals in our brain to feel safer and powerful and we get very self righteous and energized. And then it's hard to stop that. Because why do we want to calm down? Sue:​ And get all vulnerable? The v word? Screw that. (Laughter) Ann: ​We don't want to get vulnerable. We want to stay powerful. Sue: ​Particularly if the threat system is even the tiniest bit activated. Ann​: Good point. So we don't want to come down. Patty:​ Are you saying it's fun to be the Rottweiler? (Laughter) Ann:​ I think sometimes. Sue: ​To let the Rottweiler go. This also explains why in a fight, or after a fight, if your partner comes back to you in the kind soft way, that you still might have your arms crossed and be like whatever. And even though we do want security, if we have low grade activation, we are not very good at being soothed. We think, oh you're feeling guilty, that's why you're doing that. Ann:​ And, truthfully, on the unconscious level, we don't want to be soothed when our threat is activated and our partner comes back, which is an important thing to do. But when you're coming back to try to soothe and your partner doesn't immediately receive it and instead stays angry, it's an easy part to get angry again yourself. But to understand that when we are really activated and angry, there is a certain part of us that doesn't want to come down. And we need a little time. And to finish my point about the self­righteous walk­ Sue:​ Oh, that's right. The two­sided walk. Ann: ​The two­sided walk. What I suggest, if you are really angry, take that walk. Walk as far in your neighborhood as you need, and the first half you get to be self­righteous, you get to be right, you get to be a victim, and you get to be all of those things that make you powerful and angry. And you can walk until you are tired of walking and tired and ready to turn back. But once you turn back, you have to let go of the self­righteous and go okay, I am going to turn back, and at least on the way back, think about what my partner is threatened about. What is their language of security? And if I can't get there, keep walking. And at some point, we are going to want to turn around. Sue:​ That's lovely. Patty:​ And I think it gets back to the brain plasticity. What I mean by that is having a different experience. Our brains were formed by a set of experiences and if we keep repeating the same patterns, we are going to keep having the same experiences. And if that's a negative experience, we are going to keep having that negative experience in our relationships. But when we start to have new experiences, one, they feel better, but two, they are actually changing our brain. So, you know, when you start, you may actually have a new experience once, and then you fall back to the old. But you keep practicing. It's not an all or nothing thing. It's a slow process of having a new experience. Sue:​ It makes me think about when we think of neural connections, the ones that are really practiced are the super highways. They are real fast and easy and we don't have to think. Sometimes I think of like a groove. If anything comes even near it, I am going to put it in that groove. Meaning whatever that is, even security­ but let's say when it's more problematic and say we feel abandoned frequently, there's that groove, that trying a new behavior that you're talking about. Like I am really upset with you Patty, but I am going to come and talk to you Patty. Which is not what my groove says to do. My groove says to say screw this, I am out of here. But my new thing I want to try to do is try to come talk to you. So the freeway is going to take me away. But there's these little country roads where I have to pull the map out and turn it rightside up and figure it out to be able to come back to you and create the new neural connection. And of course, like you said, the first couple of times it is going to be awkward and take a long time. But if we practice and practice that, we are going to get a little trail going in our brain, and it's going to be much easier. We're also practicing knowing what the bad groove is that we don't want to do. So as we map it a little better, notice even the mapping is from the top of our brain, so that means we are more up there. But I really like what you're saying about the plasticity and the hope. Because this is a very hopeful message around the more you can understand about what's going on biologically in yourself and in people close to­ we have talked a lot about partners­ any close relationships, co­workers, children, parents, therapists (Laughter). So we will be talking more about attachment and our family histories in future podcasts. Go ahead Patty. Patty: ​You started to say, the more you practice this, and I think the end of the sentence is, the more choices you have. You don't always have to go back to your pattern. You can create new more positive patterns. Ann: ​You can and actually one of the things that we have talked about that is also important to take from this, is the step is understanding first. Because if we don't have awareness of our own threats, or our partners, or our children, if we don't have some level of awareness, we stay in the reactive mode. Which gets back to the point of the whole conversation today, and that is why we want to understand the brain and understand these connections because that insight can really help us navigate different patterns and not be just a reactor. Sue:​ That's right. We want awareness and then compassion. Ann:​ Self and other. Sue:​ Right. Like I just got really mad and shut down. And as I noticed that then what I want to have happen is to come in with oh wow you must have really­ that was a powerful­ this is really important to you Sue­. Instead of saying oh god you did it again. The more we can be aware and care about what's happening. Remember what activates the Rottweiler is threat. So what calms the Rottweiler down is signs of safety. So like you said earlier, it's not verbal. It's a soft face. It's like I am touching my hand to my chest right now. It's physical. So if we can begin to do that for ourselves first, that's going to cool it off. And then it will be much easier to access that towards other people. Patty​: Right. To stop the highjacking that we started this with. Sue:​ Right. So to stop the highjacking we have to first be aware of it and understand it. And then activate our care network and nurturing to kind of grow ourselves back up. Patty:​ Right. And then to have the option of making new choices. Because basically it is a­ when you are not being highjacked, you have choices. Sue:​ That's right. It's all about choices. Choices are good. I don't have to come talk to you if I don't want to, but I can. (Laughter) Ann:​ I have a choice to stay angry. Sue: ​That's not Fred Flintstone anymore. That's like higher order Simpsons or whatever. (Outro Music) Ann (Voiceover):​ Thanks for joining us on this episode of Therapists Uncensored. If you know somebody who might be, or should be, interested in learning more about themselves and their relationships, please share this freely. You can find us on TherapistsUncensored.com. Thanks for joining us. Cameron:​ Therapists Uncensored is Ann Kelley, Patty Olwell, and Sue Marriott. Cameron Lindsey edits the show.