© Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc. 2009
Interview of Former Special Agent of the FBI
Robin L. Montgomery (1971 – 1997)
Interviewed by Susan Wynkoop
On November 18, 2009
Edited for spelling, repetitions, etc. by Sandra Robinette on December 21, 2009. Final edit with Chief
Montgomery’s corrections made by Sandra Robinette on February 19, 2010.
Susan Wynkoop:
Hi. Today is Wednesday, November 18, 2009. This is Susan
Wynkoop and today I am interviewing Robin Montgomery,
telephonically. Robin is in Connecticut also. So I think this is the
first Connecticut interview I have done to date. I want to start off
by reading into the tape the Copyright Release form, which states:
We, the undersigned, convey the rights to the intellectual content
of our interview, on this date, November the 18th, 2009, to the
Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI. This transfer is in
exchange for the Society‟s efforts to preserve the historical legacy
of the FBI and its members. We understand that portions of this
interview may be deleted for security purposes. Unless otherwise
restricted, we agree that acceptable sections can be published on
the Worldwide Web and the recordings transferred to an
established repository for preservation and research.
So again, as I mentioned before, I‟m interviewing and talking with
Robin Montgomery. He was a former Special Agent with the FBI
from 1971 until 1997.
Before we begin our interview, I do want to take the time to thank
you, Robin, for your service during the Vietnam War. Robin is
probably one of the most highly decorated former Special Agents
in the United States. Robin received two Purple Hearts and
received the Navy Cross in 1969, which is America‟s second
highest medal for extreme gallantry and heroism in combat.
During the Vietnam War, I think there were less than 500 Navy
Crosses awarded and there were about 363 awarded in the Marine
Corps. So Robin is a very rare and highly decorated individual.
Is there anything you would like to comment on concerning that
time in your life, Robin?
Robin L. Montgomery
November 18, 2009
Page 2
Robin L. Montgomery:
Well, I think, you know, when you‟re, like most of us were, very
young and, at age twenty-three, having the responsibility for forty
to fifty other Marines that relied on you and your advanced years
for guidance in a combat situation, it, it kind of hones you for the
rest of your life. You know, the values that you picked up in that.
And, you know, at twenty-three you‟re invincible at times.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And I was dealing with nineteen, eighteen-year-olds, and what you
found is that most of the Marines that were in Vietnam were kids
off the block, so to speak.
Wynkoop:
Right.
Montgomery:
And, so this was the first time they‟d ever been out of, you know,
out of their town or wherever they were from. And they were
extremely loyal to one another. And that‟s the thing that you really
picked up and I think it helped me in the Bureau, that it was a team
affair, you know. And that‟s the thing that you tried to get across
when you left, when I left the Marine Corps into, going into the
FBI, is that you were just part of the whole and you weren‟t the,
the major attraction. You were attempting to lead folks to really
do something for the good of the whole. You know what I mean?
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm. Yes.
Montgomery:
And, obviously, you saw a lot of, I think, given the death and
destruction you saw at that age, then, that I saw, I, the rest of my
life I didn‟t, you know, when you had something that was
relatively hard to do, you could always harken back to what you
had done before, and things weren‟t so tough. You know what I
mean?
Wynkoop:
Right. Draw upon that whole experience.
Montgomery:
Exactly. At age twenty-three, having responsibility in life and
death situations for forty or fifty young Marines is quite an eye
opener. You need to mature very fast given the reliance everyone
has on you. The lessons I learned were invaluable in my career
with the FBI.
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Montgomery:
As an aside to that, I had a Platoon Sergeant who lost both legs and
an arm there, who was my age. And he is, today, a very productive
citizen. I have been in touch with him forever; and his son
graduated from Annapolis; is now a Lieutenant Colonel in the
Marine Corps. But whenever I had folks thinking their life was
tough, because they either had a deadline to make or they had a
long commute, I‟d yank them in my office and show them the
picture of this guy in a wheelchair and that put it in perspective.
You know what I mean?
Wynkoop:
Boy! I do.
Montgomery:
So I think that‟s the one thing I learned with my combat experience
is that, you know, what true hardship is. This allowed me to put
events within the FBI in a proper perspective.
Wynkoop:
Hmmm. Yes. I‟m sure you were able to utilize that, that whole
experience a lot during your career.
Montgomery:
Well, it helped. It did help. And it helped because, you know, the
FBI‟s got a long relationship with the Marine Corps.
Wynkoop:
Exactly.
Montgomery:
And I was able to bridge that, particularly my last assignment at
Quantico. You had instant credibility. So that helped. And in
some of the things that I did later on with the Critical Incident
Response Group, having been in the military during Vietnam also
helped the program.
It helped in the sense that I made a connection with some militia
folks that ended up actually helping us in the long run during that
time when militias were in vogue right after the Murrah Building
bombing and everything else.
Wynkoop:
Well, we really, I know Veteran‟s Day was only a couple of weeks
ago.
Montgomery:
Yep.
Wynkoop:
I thought of you that day and we all thank you.
But tell me just before we start into your career as an Agent, a little
bit about where you grew up and your background.
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Montgomery:
Well, I‟m a military brat.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
And my dad was a career Army officer, and so I grew up all over
the world basically. I never lived anywhere longer than two to
three years. He was somewhat chagrined when I enlisted in the
Marine Corps but that was my call.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
So I lived in Europe. I lived in Japan, you know, as a youngster. I
went to my first two years of college in Munich, Germany. But I
never established any roots. So I think, in part, when I look back,
that helped me in a lot of the things that I had to do, you know, on
the spur of the moment type thing, because I was used to having to
be thrown into another set of circumstances every two years. You
know what I mean?
Wynkoop:
Wow. I see. Oh yes! That makes a difference.
Montgomery:
It does! Yes.
Wynkoop:
I didn‟t know you were a military brat.
Montgomery:
Yes.
Wynkoop:
Because I saw that you were born in Augusta, Georgia. So I
thought, oh my gosh, did Robin grow up in Georgia.
Montgomery:
No.
Wynkoop:
Okay. So you were everywhere.
Montgomery:
I was everywhere. Absolutely.
Wynkoop:
Okay. Well now, when you joined the Marine Corps were you
already interested in the FBI?
Montgomery:
No.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
And that‟s so typical of how my ADHD comes in to play, you
know. (Chuckling)
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November 18, 2009
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Wynkoop:
Hmmm!
Montgomery:
I was, my last assignment was at Quantico and I was in charge of
the troops in the Weapons Training Battalion … that was adjacent
to the FBI Firing Range.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
Quantico had not been, the Training Academy hadn‟t been built
yet.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
So this would have been in ‟71. I think it was built in ‟73. But
some of the FBI Agents that were Firearms Instructors asked what
I was interested in when I was getting out because I was going to
get out and I had no idea. And they suggested the FBI. And they
kind of walked me through the process and the rest is history. So, I
have to say there was no great revelation. Do you know what I
mean?
Wynkoop:
Okay. Well, I was, you know, I was looking at the dates that you
got out of the Marine Corps in ‟71 and you became an Agent in
‟71.
Montgomery:
Right.
Wynkoop:
So I just thought oh, that‟s something you wanted to do prior to
even …
Montgomery:
That, I mean, it worked out in the sense that I was down there
already.
Wynkoop:
Exactly.
Montgomery:
And when I got out at Quantico, I just kind of went up to DC. And
then they‟d bring us back down for firearms because the Training
Academy hadn‟t been built yet.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm. Where would you do the shooting? In Quantico?
Montgomery:
Shooting, Quantico.
Wynkoop:
And the athletics, the physical things, I guess … ?
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November 18, 2009
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Montgomery:
All the physical training was down in the basement of the Justice
Department.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
And then we had all our classrooms in the Old Post Office
Building.
Wynkoop:
Right. Okay. So you were sort of the last of that group.
Montgomery:
Yes.
Wynkoop:
Okay. And so after Quantico, what was your First Office?
Montgomery:
Well, like everything else, I thought well, the Marine Corps owes
me a move to Seattle so I‟m sure the FBI is going to send me, you
know, use that money that the Marine Corps owes to send me a
distance. I went to Baltimore.
Wynkoop:
(Laughing) Oh, that‟s funny!
Montgomery:
Yes.
Wynkoop:
So that was your first office. Okay.
Montgomery:
Yeah. And actually, I was involved in the Bremer shooting of
Wallace there, also.
Wynkoop:
Oh, okay.
Montgomery:
As far as guarding Bremer, you know, around the clock at the
hospital he was in. And so I was involved in that. Ironically, then,
involved in the next one in DC in ‟81.
Wynkoop:
In ‟81. Because the Bremer shooting, what year was that?
Montgomery:
That was probably 1971.
Wynkoop:
Right when you got out of training. Okay.
Montgomery:
Yeah. Or ‟72. Seventy-one, ‟72; something like that.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
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November 18, 2009
Page 7
Montgomery:
That‟s when Wallace was shot at. You know, he was making a run
for the presidency.
Wynkoop:
Right.
Montgomery:
That was the end of that.
Wynkoop:
When did you get to WFO? From Baltimore?
Montgomery:
Well, see I went from Baltimore … my second office ended up
being Omaha, Nebraska.
Wynkoop:
Oh, wow! So they sent you out there.
Montgomery:
They sent me out there and what I ended up primarily doing was, I
was involved with Wounded Knee and with the RESMURS
investigation. You know, the, the murder of the two Agents?
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
I actually participated in the crime scene search where the two
Agents were murdered and discovered the round that we were able
to link to the AR-15 that Peltier had in his hand that ultimately
convicted the guy.
Wynkoop:
Oh wow!
Montgomery:
I can recall having to dig, you know, with a K-Bar knife on the
blood-soaked ground just to try to come up with something. But
even though having been in combat, to see the mutilation, if you
will, by the gunshots of the two Agents were pretty … pretty sad;
pretty sickening.
Wynkoop:
I can imagine that would really hit, hit you hard. Did, were the,
this round that you found, was that deep in the earth?
Montgomery:
Yeah, that was one that, you know, another one where the Agents
were dead, or down, and fired at point-blank range. It was a
through and through, so there wasn‟t much damage to it.
Wynkoop:
I see.
Montgomery:
And so we were able to dig that out and it was actually used in
trial, I think.
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Robin L. Montgomery
November 18, 2009
Page 8
Wynkoop:
And, again, because I didn‟t look up that case, that was what like
1970 …
Montgomery:
Five.
Wynkoop:
Okay. I was going to say four.
Montgomery:
Yes.
Wynkoop:
Okay, 1975.
Montgomery:
I want to say June 26th, 1975. Yep. And so I was up there two
months or so. Wounded Knee, I was up two months or so.
Wynkoop:
And what was your involvement there?
Montgomery:
Well, I was like everybody else, you know. They had roadblocks
and so they imported guys from all over the place to man these
roadblocks to not let Indians out or in … Pine Ridge is just a …
Pine Ridge is a huge Indian reservation, but Wounded Knee is just
a small portion of that.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
It‟s like a little village, if you will. And so this is the first time that
I think the Bureau got involved as heavily as they did. And they
just started, I think, in the Department of Justice, with this, I want
to say Civil Affairs, but they‟re the special Civil Rights folks.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm. Okay.
Montgomery:
So they had five SACs up there. You could see this was kind of a
transition. We didn‟t have SWAT Teams then. This was …
Wynkoop:
That‟s crazy.
Montgomery:
… pre-SWAT Team. As a result of, you know, everybody
showing up in the wintertime in their snap brim hats, being issued
M-16s, of which probably 75 percent didn‟t know how to shoot.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
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Robin L. Montgomery
November 18, 2009
Page 9
Montgomery:
It was kind of a debacle in some ways. And I think after that, the
SWAT Team concept, for the Bureau, came into play. Where
you‟d have the specialty trained folks that understood the longterm tactics and could use the weaponry attendant to that, trained
separately. And then when the Agents were murdered in ‟75, the
people that responded to that were actually SWAT Team folks.
Wynkoop:
Oh, okay.
Montgomery:
So in the two years, they‟d stood up a program that hadn‟t existed
before.
Wynkoop:
It‟s hard to even imagine pre-SWAT days.
Montgomery:
I know.
Wynkoop:
But it really … that‟s amazing! And, you know, right off the bat,
I‟m sure the SWAT Teams knew and were responding to events
throughout the United States, I would think.
Montgomery:
Uhm-hmm. Well, and you know, each Division had a SWAT
Team.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
But a lot of the SACs were very apprehensive about it because they
were from the old-school, so to speak. And, you know, you got to
keep remembering that Hoover was still alive when I came in.
Wynkoop:
Right.
Montgomery:
And they‟re just, there were a lot of management folks that didn‟t
have real world experience. You know what I mean?
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And so what you had, this onslaught of a thousand Agents coming
in around the time that I did, that, you know, had been in the
military, or done other things and …
Wynkoop:
Exactly. Yep.
Montgomery:
So it was kind of interesting to see the transition, if you will.
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Wynkoop:
Yes. And it sounds like you were right there in that major
transition.
Montgomery:
Oh yeah.
Wynkoop:
Wow.
Montgomery:
That made it interesting.
Wynkoop:
I am sure. Gosh. So had you lived in the Midwest at all? You
know, growing up through all your … ?
Montgomery:
No. No. No. That was just an assignment. And then I got back to
DC because I was interested in advancement and the only way to
do that was to go to a large field office.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And, consequently, I OP‟d to WFO and got there in April of ‟79.
And right away, I was assigned to a Task Force that was starting to
prosecute all those GSA cases. Do you remember all those
corruption cases?
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And so I ended up working with an attorney who was a former
Marine, a Korean Marine veteran; a very smart guy. Offsite, on a,
on a case against an attorney who was corrupting the, one of the
vendors for the Government. And that was, ended in a trial in
September of ‟79, and a conviction up in Newark. So I got right in
the middle of that.
Wynkoop:
As I recall, I can‟t remember the exact … was it like trash cans that
were 500 dollars? Or what was, something that was crazy.
Montgomery:
(Unintel). This particular thing involved, you know, desk
contracts, painting contracts, and sub-standard stuff that was being
pawned off as high-class stuff.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And, you know, it was just, it was a mess.
Wynkoop:
Wow!
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Montgomery:
But shortly thereafter, I ended up being promoted to a Supervisor
in WFO on a White Collar Crime Desk. And at that same time,
Public Corruption was taking off and WFO ended up having two
Public Corruption Desks. One for really the Field Office, which
was primarily DC; and then one for the national stuff, the
congressmen and that. And so I ended up having supervisory
responsibilities for the Congressional side of that whole thing.
And another supervisor, whom I‟m still in touch with, an attorney,
he‟s about 70 now, but he had the internal, you know, the DC stuff.
Wynkoop:
The more local.
Montgomery:
So he was involved with, you know, a lot of the pre-Barry stuff.
Wynkoop:
(Chuckle) Right.
Montgomery:
And just the way contracts were being done in, in DC. So, it was
kind of interesting.
And then in 1982, when the FBI got mutual jurisdiction with Title
21, you know, with the drug stuff?
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm. Right.
Montgomery:
I became, I was appointed the first Drug Supervisor for WFO.
That would have been ‟82. And what I did was hook up with the
DC guys and I rode with the cops and kind of got a first-hand
knowledge, but it was short-lived because I ended up being
transferred to Headquarters, to the Inspection Division in ‟82.
Wynkoop:
Okay. What had, I guess, forgotten from history in high school or
somewhere along the line, that you being in the District of
Columbia, you could investigate local things.
Montgomery:
Yeah.
Wynkoop:
You could, see I had just sort of forgotten about that. So that must
have been very interesting. And a good way to learn.
Montgomery:
That‟s actually, that‟s what Mueller did in one of his times
between … God, my radio‟s loud.
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Page 12
Wynkoop:
That‟s okay. I forgot to tell our folks that you‟re currently a Police
Chief. So, Robin is at his Brookfield Police Department. So go
ahead. Yes. I didn‟t know Mueller …
Montgomery:
Yeah. He actually was, I think, before he went out to be the USA
in, I think he was the USA in San Francisco, at one point.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm. You‟re right.
Montgomery:
But he was one of the major prosecutors of homicide cases, etc.,
etc., in the DC courts.
Wynkoop:
Right. Okay. I knew he did a lot of that.
Montgomery:
So I went to, in the Inspection.
Wynkoop:
But before we go to the Inspection, just describe, and again, this is
early „80s, it sounds to me like the corruption scene, the drug scene
in Washington, things were pretty rough in the District of
Columbia. I would suppose at that time.
Montgomery:
Yes, they were. And also this was the time, you know, the
narcotics was coming in full bore down to Miami.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And they were hiring a lot of, some minorities very quickly
without any backgrounds. And you recall the number of them that
they hired down in Miami were, ultimately, were found, you know,
for homicides and every other thing. Remember that?
Wynkoop:
Who were being hired as what?
Montgomery:
As cops!
Wynkoop:
Okay. I thought you meant police.
Montgomery:
Yes. And, ultimately, you know, were committing crimes while on
duty and, I mean, because they just hadn‟t vetted everything. They
needed to get a bunch of cops on the street that were …
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
… you know, Hispanic, could speak the language and it was a
mess.
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Wynkoop:
Wow.
Montgomery:
And the same sort of thing happened in DC. I mean, they hired,
because DC is primarily African-American. They hired a lot of
folks that were not qualified. And they did it because they were
forced to do it and a lot of the troubles that plagued DC were as a
result of that.
Wynkoop:
That‟s interesting. Okay. I did not know that.
Montgomery:
Uhm-hmm.
Wynkoop:
And I‟m sure that could very quickly wreak havoc, you know.
That just being in that (unintel) situation.
Montgomery:
You couldn‟t trust, you know, who to trust; who not to trust.
Wynkoop:
Exactly. And then, again, because you said you went to the
Inspection Division, what year? Eighty …?
Montgomery:
It would have been like December ‟82, I think.
Wynkoop:
Okay. So before we go there, I just …
Montgomery:
Yes, we need to do the Reagan.
Wynkoop:
Yes. I know you were very involved in the 1981 attempt on [the]
assassination attempt on the President, Ronald Reagan, at that
time. And just tell me your involvement of, in that.
Montgomery:
Okay. My first involvement, once the incident occurred and …
nothing has changed probably, but there was a lot of who‟s in
charge stuff, obviously.
Wynkoop:
Hmmm.
Montgomery:
Secret Service or the FBI; the FBI, obviously, investigates attempts
now. I think that was pre-legislation though, I think. You can, I
don‟t, I‟m not …
Wynkoop:
Okay. I‟m not certain on that either.
Montgomery:
Yeah, you might want to look at that.
Wynkoop:
Uh-huh.
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November 18, 2009
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Montgomery:
But I think they may have been. But, so the FBI became, you
know, responsible for the investigation of the assassination
attempt. And we had, oh God, I‟m getting all these names mixed
up … Hinckley in custody and needed to get him out of DC. And
we were able, this goes back to the Marine Corps thing again, to
get him into the brig at Quantico, which was very much more
secluded and much more secure-conscious than, you know, the
jails that were up in DC.
Wynkoop:
Right.
Montgomery:
And I was asked by the SAC at the time, Ted Gardner, to get a
group together and coordinate with the Marines down there to get
Hinckley down there as quickly as possible. And we had to make
a straight shot down I-95. I think we had maybe five or six cars so
that we kind of kept traffic at bay our whole trip down there and,
you know, got him housed and …
Wynkoop:
And again, Robin, you said, I guess the shooting took place around
one or so, I guess, after lunch.
Montgomery:
After a luncheon engagement. Yes.
Wynkoop:
I just wonder what had Hinckley done all afternoon?
Montgomery:
He had been in lockup somewhere.
Wynkoop:
Just, okay.
Montgomery:
I don‟t have a clue.
Wynkoop:
I just wondered.
Montgomery:
I mean, because they got him right away, obviously.
Wynkoop:
Exactly.
Montgomery:
But, so that was my initial role. And then the FBI had to interview
the victims. That was part of the investigation. And there was a
huge push back from the Secret Service, and, I think in part
because they didn‟t know what may come out of it regarding their
agency and all this other stuff. You know what I mean?
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
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Montgomery:
So it probably took a week, at least, to finally come up with the
rules of engagement for this whole process, if you will. And, if
you recall, that‟s about the time, remember how Reagan, they
didn‟t realize it, but he was bleeding internally.
Wynkoop:
Exactly. They didn‟t think he was really hurt that badly.
Montgomery:
Yes. And so this is about that time. So we finally were given the
okay to conduct the interview and a Supervisor by the name of
John Pavlansky and myself were chosen by the SAC to conduct
that interview.
Wynkoop:
Now, how do you spell his last name?
Montgomery:
P-a-v-l-a-n-s-k-y.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
And he‟s somewhere down in Fredericksburg now.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
But we were, we were selected to conduct this interview. And we
had a couple dry runs in the sense that we were given explicit
instructions by the U.S. Attorney‟s Office that you would not show
any photographs; this was kind of a perfunctory thing, which we
have recognized. But it was still very much media driven.
Wynkoop:
And you‟re speaking of interviewing the President.
Montgomery:
Yes.
Wynkoop:
I just wanted to make sure.
Montgomery:
And, so a couple of, we had a couple of false starts; and finally the
day came when we were called over to Headquarters to meet with,
it was Director Webster at the time.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
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Montgomery:
And from there we were to go to the hospital to interview him.
John and I were not armed, which we weren‟t supposed to be, went
over to the, to Headquarters and Webster was talking with a group
of, I think, Assistant Directors about the interview. The guy, the
Assistant Director from the Laboratory had come up with a replica
of the devastator bullet that actually was used to shoot Reagan.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And had it encased in a glass that was going to be presented by
Webster to Reagan. I mean, John and I just looked at each other
and said “you gotta be kidding me.”
Wynkoop:
(Laughing) That is kind of odd.
Montgomery:
Well, it is odd!
Wynkoop:
(Laughing)
Montgomery:
And you had some odd folks about that time, so.
Wynkoop:
(Laughing)
Montgomery:
So Webster, I can recall this to this day, came up and said, “Are
you carrying? And we thought he meant guns, and we said, “No.
We‟re not allowed to do that.” “No. No.” And then he took out
this photograph of Hinckley actually shooting.
Wynkoop:
Hmmm!
Montgomery:
If you recall, there was a photograph of him.
Wynkoop:
Exactly.
Montgomery:
And I said, you know, “Director, we‟re not allowed to show any
photographs.” And so he crumpled it back up and put it in his
pocket. And then we finally left, went down. His driver drove us
to the hospital. And, you know, it was supposed to be a low-key
thing.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And about the time we go into the driveway, the driver puts the
red, the ball, the red ball and light on the dashboard of the car.
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Page 17
Wynkoop:
Gotcha. Okay.
Montgomery:
John and I jumped up almost simultaneously to put it back down
on the deck there. Because that was another thing that we were
told, this is, you know, don‟t make this a media circus. Because
the media was lined up all the way from, you know, the hospital
door to the street almost.
Wynkoop:
I‟m sure. Right.
Montgomery:
And, you know, they would yell at the Director and can you give
me information; that kind of thing. So we went into the hospital
and met with Ed Meese, who was one of the three at that time that
was running the White House.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And he basically said … oh, Webster asked about the press and
should he give any comments, and Meese, being a former
prosecutor, said, “Isn‟t this a pending case?” He said, “Well, yes.”
“No comment.”
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm. Right. (Chuckling)
Montgomery:
Webster, I think I heard him say that, you know, he was going to
take maybe twenty minutes and we‟d have five minutes of the half
hour that was allocated for this. And it, it flipped around and we
ended up with twenty minutes and he ended up with five. But one
of the things that bothered us is that when we walked in the room,
supposedly nobody else was to be there, instead there was …
Wynkoop:
Other than the three of you? The President and the two of you?
Montgomery:
Yes. They had Jerry Parr, the guy I mentioned to you, who was his
Secret Service Agent.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
Was there; as was somebody from the White House. You know.
But we went through the motions anyway because it just would
have been too much to say “hey wait a minute, time out; the
protocol says” x, y, z. You know what I mean?
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm. Right.
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Montgomery:
One of the things that struck us was how personable Reagan was
and the fact that he was reaching for water and none of those other
two guys got up to get it. And so John and I got up and, you know,
poured him some water. And so we just, it was strange, you
know?
Wynkoop:
Very strange, sounds like. Uh-huh.
Montgomery:
It was a strange situation. But, as I said, the interview didn‟t take
that long and, quite frankly, we knew nothing was probably going
to come out of it, but the matter of the fact that he normally stands
on the running boards and waves to folks, you know, was kind of a
good indication that this was not something that was a wellplanned out. You know what I mean?
Wynkoop:
Right. Because you had mentioned that President Reagan usually
does stand on the running board …
Montgomery:
Yes.
Wynkoop:
Thank goodness this individual didn‟t know that because he didn‟t
even let him get to that …
Montgomery:
Right.
Wynkoop:
… point.
Montgomery:
So anyway, then I think, I‟m not, yeah, we had to come, we came
back, well, anyway, let me finish this one. So we‟re leaving …
Wynkoop:
And he really didn‟t recall all that much, I …
Montgomery:
No. No.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
You know, he talked about California; and, no, not really.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
But very personable. And so when we left … he had a lot of
second grade photographs, or paintings, on his wall … of course,
he got this devastator bullet thing now that‟s by his phone, you
know.
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Wynkoop:
So that was given to him?
Montgomery:
I think so, yeah.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
As we left, the Director, it was William Webster, ran into Nancy
Reagan.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
But, I mean, in retrospect, this was probably the most serious time
that he was there then, because he was going through these internal
things they weren‟t aware of yet.
Wynkoop:
So when you spoke with him, they weren‟t aware of that yet?
Montgomery:
No.
Wynkoop:
Ohh, okay. Because was it one, how many days after the incident
is it that you‟re in there speaking to the President?
Montgomery:
I want to say it was a week, maybe.
Wynkoop:
Oh wow! And they still didn‟t know at that time.
Montgomery:
No. And then I think it was like the tenth …
Wynkoop:
Wow!
Montgomery:
… I want to say the tenth day or something like that things …
Wynkoop:
Okay. But you also, I think, interviewed, as you said, the other
victims that were shot.
Montgomery:
Yes. The other two, Delahanty and McCarthy. And again, those
were perfunctory really just to round out the investigation to have
talked to them. There was nothing that was provided that was of
any note, basically.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
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Montgomery:
But as we were leaving, Meese, you know, reminded us “no
comment,” which I think was interesting because, you know, the
Director was interested, I think, in giving a statement because there
was press there. But we had to keep walking.
Wynkoop:
Right. Okay. I‟m sorry, when you, were you in the car with
Hinckley when he was transported to Quantico?
Montgomery:
I don‟t think I was in the car. No. I was like in the lead or in some
sort of command and control capacity. So I was not in, because I
think we had him boxed in so that, we had cars in front, to the side
and to the rear.
Wynkoop:
Well, that must have been an exciting trip; I would think.
Montgomery:
Very.
Wynkoop:
Okay. And that, that was, I remember that very well. And it all
went better than we, I mean, he became well and got out of the
hospital and continued on. So that was a good thing.
Montgomery:
Yes. Absolutely.
Wynkoop:
Now, so you‟re in Headquarters a bit longer, or, you said you went
to the Inspection Staff which, of course, is a lot of traveling and …
Montgomery:
Yeah, and I was. I was in what they called the Review and
Analysis Unit.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
And that unit primarily took the data from the office that was to be
inspected, and then I looked at it and then kind of put a game plan
together that the Inspection team would look at. .
Wynkoop:
Oh, that‟s interesting. I didn‟t know that happened.
Because I was always amazed, I don‟t know, the Inspectors would
come to the New York Office and they‟d just seem to have a very
good sense of things, which always amazed me because I knew the
office was so large.
Montgomery:
That‟s how that happened.
Wynkoop:
Okay. I see.
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Montgomery:
So you‟d put together a document that would kind of give them a
road map of what to look for.
Wynkoop:
I see.
Montgomery:
And some of the issues, you‟d put the issues out also, you know.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
That were there.
Wynkoop:
So that‟s sort of a desk, couple of years, part of your career, I
guess.
Montgomery:
Yes. That was about two years. And then I ended up being the
Assistant Career Board Secretary; and then evolving into the
Career Board Secretary under John Otto.
Wynkoop:
Oh, so that was this time, this time in your career that that came
along?
Montgomery:
Right.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
So I got out of Headquarters, ultimately, in May of ‟86 and went
up to Philadelphia to be ASAC.
Wynkoop:
So that was 1986. So you were in Headquarters like say five or …
Montgomery:
Yeah, three and a half years, or so.
Wynkoop:
Oh, three and a half.
Montgomery:
Uhm-hmm.
Wynkoop:
I was thinking it was almost five up there. That‟s a good length of
time. And I‟m sure, though, you‟ve learned a lot that you can take
out to an office again.
Montgomery:
Well, yeah.
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Wynkoop:
And then you went to Philadelphia. Now that, again, nice east
coast. Nice size town, I would think, there‟s a lot going on there.
And you just basically worked Organized Crime, Corruption,
again?
Montgomery:
Well, I mean, it was kind of interesting in the sense that my forte
was White Collar Crime, basically. And Violent Crimes. But
there was an issue with, it was a two ASAC office then.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And the other ASAC had been there a while and the mob case was
just breaking with the Scarfo crime family.
Shortly after my arrival, an internal investigation was undertaken
and the SAC assigned me the Scarfo case on top of my other
assignments.
Wynkoop:
Oh wow! And that was a big case. Well, in Philadelphia, how
many families were there?
Montgomery:
Well, Philly, it started off with the Bruno family.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And then, like everything else, the young guys try to get in the act.
I mean, it was one family. So there was activity there. And then it
was right when Atlantic City was getting built up with all those
casinos, and so they were trying to hook into the unions there, and
then extorting businessmen that were trying to build up the city, in
Philadelphia itself. And so it was a, it was pretty interesting.
Wynkoop:
An active time, it sounds to me.
Montgomery:
Uhm-hmm.
Wynkoop:
Because you‟re an ASAC, so I guess you had just one Squad
working on this Organized Crime?
Montgomery:
One squad handled the organized crime case. And then you had a
number of drug squads, which the other ASAC handled. And then
you had some White Collar Crime; you had the traditional stuff;
and then you had RAs also.
Wynkoop:
Right.
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Montgomery:
So, you know, 150 Agents or so at that time. So that was twenty
years ago, or twenty-three years ago.
Wynkoop:
Wow! But, again, I would just think Philadelphia would offer just
a wide range of really great cases.
Montgomery:
Oh, it did.
Wynkoop:
I would think.
Montgomery:
It did. And it still does today, I‟m sure. What was interesting, you
know, South Philly had Ozzie Meyers hooked up in the ABSCAM
case in 1980; along with, you know, a couple of Jersey
Congressmen, and the Senator. And they reelected him while he
was in the joint, basically.
Wynkoop:
Wow!
Montgomery:
So, it was interesting. A lot of wiretaps and surveillances, and
some good things came out of that.
Plus we had, I think we had ten judges that we indicted for a
variety of things. And actually ended up, they were throwing cases
for money. And we ended up putting wires in, in their chambers.
Wynkoop:
That‟s amazing! The work that the tech crews do in getting …
Montgomery:
Oh absolutely!
Wynkoop:
I just … that must have been a very difficult …
Montgomery:
They are.
Wynkoop:
… installation; I would think.
Montgomery:
Yeah.
Wynkoop:
And that many judges! That‟s amazing.
Montgomery:
Yeah. And see they‟re all, they all are elected so they all are
looking for something to bolster their election coffers but they
were, yeah. So if you did, you know, an archival search, if you
saw probably in ‟87, ‟88, that all took place.
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Montgomery:
Plus I was in charge of that 250th, I think it was 250th, the
Bicentennial celebration in Philadelphia happened then.
Wynkoop:
So you were in charge of security and …
Montgomery:
Yeah.
Wynkoop:
… that whole …?
Montgomery:
Of what the FBI‟s involvement was in that thing. So it was a busy
time. A busy three years.
Wynkoop:
It sounds like it. But, you know, it sounds to me like it was very
fulfilling though.
Montgomery:
Oh absolutely!
Wynkoop:
That, I think, which is the fun part.
Montgomery:
You‟re right. And, I have to say, you know, I was going through a
divorce and I was up there by myself. So I was devoted one
hundred percent to my job. No distractions.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
So that helped, you know.
Wynkoop:
Well, I was going to ask because you‟re being moved around a lot
and, you know, and I was just wondering how your kids did and,
with all of those moves also.
Montgomery:
Yeah. They didn‟t make the move to Philly. In fact, their only
movement was from Omaha to DC; and that‟s where they stayed.
Because I ended up getting divorced and stuff. But they‟re now 36
and 34. And one‟s an Agent in the FBI; and the other is Director
of Sales for the Washington Capitals.
Wynkoop:
Oh neat! Wow!
Montgomery:
Yeah.
Wynkoop:
Now, where‟s your son an Agent at the present time?
Montgomery:
He‟s at the Manassas RA.
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November 18, 2009
Page 25
Wynkoop:
And I‟m sure, so you know a lot about what‟s going on today,
then, through your son.
Montgomery:
A little bit. But, you know, he keeps his own counsel.
Wynkoop:
Right. Well, that‟s great. So, you‟re in Philadelphia. And then
you just keep right along with your great career and become
(unintel) …
Montgomery:
Well, I was asked to come back as the Violent Crimes Section
Chief. And I think one of the …
Wynkoop:
That‟s right. See and I was hoppin‟ ahead. Okay. That was ‟89?
Montgomery:
Right.
Wynkoop:
Nineteen eighty-nine.
Montgomery:
And at that same time, about the time I got there … Bob Ricks was
the Deputy Assistant Director then … he and I, we were fighting
amongst each other for resources. And it was ridiculous. You
know, the Bank Robbery had a separate thing; and the Fugitives
had a … so we came up with combining all the Violent Crimes
under one umbrella, which we ended up doing, and successfully
so. Because there were, I think, about twelve hundred Agents
working that kind of stuff; which is a considerable sum.
Wynkoop:
Throughout the United States?
Montgomery:
Yes.
Wynkoop:
I would have thought there would have been more.
Montgomery:
No.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
But just for Violent Crimes.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm. Right.
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Robin L. Montgomery
November 18, 2009
Page 26
Montgomery:
But we had the VANPAC case. Which was the, if you recall, the
judge getting blown up with a mail bomb; and then an alderman in
Savannah back in December of ‟89, getting blown up also. I was
the Section Chief then, which that all came under. Ultimately,
Larry Potts ended up being selected as the Inspector in Charge of
the case.
And, ultimately, Louie Freeh came in as a Special Prosecutor. And
that‟s how those two met and that‟s how that relationship came to
be. And then the rest is kind of history, you know.
Wynkoop:
Right. Right.
Montgomery:
And it was kind of a sad deal at the end.
Wynkoop:
I‟m sorry, though, you say this judge and alderman killing, that
was the VANPAC case?
Montgomery:
That was the acronym for the case.
Wynkoop:
Right.
Montgomery:
I couldn‟t tell you, what the names were.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
But that was the acronym, just like they have …
Wynkoop:
For UNABOMBER?
Montgomery:
Exactly. So that was a very lengthy, unique case, as well. And,
ultimately, wired the guy‟s cell room and he convicted himself.
He basically confessed to himself and what he …
(end of side A)
Wynkoop:
And you were saying, just again, about Mr. Potts and Freeh, that
their relationship started during this case.
Montgomery:
In that investigation. And, ultimately, the guy was, I want to say
his last, I forget his name, was convicted.
Wynkoop:
I know what I was going to ask you. And then it ran out. So this
individual who confessed was already in prison for something?
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November 18, 2009
Page 27
Montgomery:
Or no. He was being held; he hadn‟t been convicted yet.
Wynkoop:
Okay. I mean, he wasn‟t on, in prison for some other charge?
Montgomery:
No.
Wynkoop:
Okay. And so he was just sort of rambling to himself.
Montgomery:
Yep. Yep.
Wynkoop:
Now, I wonder how many times they put a wire in a cell.
Montgomery:
I don‟t know.
Wynkoop:
That‟s an interesting; it certainly worked though. Wow! I wonder
how long it took before, was it a long time before this revelation
occurred? Or do you recall?
Montgomery:
Yes. This probably took eight months or so.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
Yes, there were a lot of resources devoted to that.
Wynkoop:
So you‟re in Headquarters again?
Montgomery:
Right.
Wynkoop:
And you‟ve already sort of restructured this whole Violent Crime
Program?
Montgomery:
Yep.
Wynkoop:
So you have a lot of input into the violent crimes that are being
committed throughout the U.S.?
Montgomery:
Yes. And, and what we did, we initiated a lot of the stuff that you
see going up, a lot of the task forces. The Violent Crime Task
Forces; we started those.
And I was also the Chair of the Shooting Incident Review Group.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
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Page 28
Montgomery:
So I had oversight for review of all the shootings that took place in
the Bureau.
Wynkoop:
How did you find most of these shootings? Justified, I would
hope.
Montgomery:
Yes. Quite frankly. I mean, there were some that were borderline
but all of them, you know, were, were justified. I can only think of
one, I‟m not going to divulge, but it was borderline a little.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm. And, again, did you play any part in dealing with
Agents who were involved in shootings?
Montgomery:
Yes. And, in a way, I ended up, because of my Vietnam
experience, you know … do you remember the name Jim Horn, by
chance?
Wynkoop:
Jim H-o-r-n?
Montgomery:
Yes. He was an Agent down at Quantico, a former Vietnam
veteran that really began this post-critical analysis of an event. I
mean, a lot of the folks would get traumatized, you know.
Wynkoop:
Exactly.
Montgomery:
And so you bring them back and take them through about a week
training, you know, bring in some professionals and, it was very
helpful. You bring in victims, Agents that had been in shootings.
And it was a way to demonstrate that we understood what was
going on and, you know, what they were going through. And then
you try to give them some assistance, you know, in that process.
And I would speak on a regular basis to that group, you know,
because …
Wynkoop:
I see.
Montgomery:
… you do get traumatized by the things you see and do.
Wynkoop:
Right.
Montgomery:
So I was involved in that.
Wynkoop:
And for a long time, I mean, for many, many years there was
nothing that occurred for these Agents who were involved.
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Montgomery:
Right.
Wynkoop:
So it‟s an excellent step.
Montgomery:
Yep.
Wynkoop:
And I‟m sure they very much enjoyed hearing you speak and
things you were able to …
Montgomery:
Well, I don‟t know. You try to be as forthright as you can be.
Wynkoop:
And how to deal with all of this, right?
Montgomery:
Uhm-hmm.
Wynkoop:
Which is important for them to be able to get on with their, the rest
of their careers.
Montgomery:
Oh absolutely! And I can‟t tell you the number of times that I
referred my Platoon Sergeant to the guys that had been hurt in
shootings.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
You know, so he could talk to them.
Wynkoop:
That‟s great.
Montgomery:
Yeah.
Wynkoop:
And then, so you did a lot of restructuring and had a lot of input;
which is, again, a very meaningful time for Headquarters. Because
often you hear of the dreading and the things that went on there, at
Headquarters; and no one seemed to want to go, etc. But it seems
like you were just very involved and made really great strides with
your time there.
Montgomery:
Well, it was productive. And, what we tried to do, and I think the
field will tell you, that we tried to be the pivot man, so to speak.
You know, some Sections are, think they‟re running the show, and
I just always had a lot of faith in … and I had to deal with SACs,
you know, the Section Chief level.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
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Robin L. Montgomery
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Montgomery:
And I had faith in the individuals and let them go their way
without having to instruct them, so to speak. So there wasn‟t a lot
of micro-managing. But folks knew what was and what wasn‟t
accepted. That kind of thing.
Wynkoop:
Right. That‟s exciting.
Montgomery:
So it was good.
Wynkoop:
Well, and then you went on from that position …?
Montgomery:
To Portland.
Wynkoop:
Now you finally get to Portland, Oregon. And this is ‟92, as a
Special Agent in Charge.
Montgomery:
Right.
Wynkoop:
And, I know, I guess early on in this office, you went to the Ruby
Ridge, Idaho, confrontation.
Montgomery:
Yes.
Wynkoop:
That had just occurred?
Montgomery:
It had just occurred. In fact, the Inspection Division was in
Portland and they were due to have, a couple of them, to have
dinner at my place. I got called, like on a Friday. I think Ruby
Ridge happened on a Friday. And I got called late Friday night to
get a plane to Spokane, Washington, Saturday. And I was picked
up by an Agent and taken up to Ruby Ridge in Idaho.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And there were some issues that I‟ve had to testify on regarding
the Deadly Force Policy; the shooting, the rules of engagement.
Wynkoop:
Which I read about and I know the rules changed a bit and then
they changed back.
Montgomery:
Yeah.
Wynkoop:
And so you had to testify on, on what they were at a certain time,
or on a certain day?
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Montgomery:
Yeah. Well, what I ended up doing, really, from the git-go, was
saying that the rules were, of engagement were our FBI Firearms,
was our FBI policy. That is, if your life‟s in danger or somebody
else‟s life‟s in danger. But there‟s no shoot-on-sight thing. It had
been proffered earlier, you know.
Wynkoop:
Right.
Montgomery:
And so I, there were three SACs, Gene Glenn, who was the SAC
of Salt Lake, whose territory this thing was taking place in; and
then the SAC from Seattle, his wife was an Agent, Bill Gore.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
And then myself. And you had the Marshal Service and all their
tactical folks there. „Cause that‟s who …
Wynkoop:
Whose case it was, initially.
Montgomery:
Whose case it was. And all these, and then the Hostage Rescue
Team was there.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And all ready. And Dick Rogers was the Hostage Rescue Team
Commander. I was very familiar with the Hostage Rescue Team,
having dealt with Woody Johnson when he was there and I was the
Section Chief, because we had the Talladega Prison rescue.
Wynkoop:
Oh yes.
Montgomery:
And that, so we had to help and assist in that process. So I was
aware of that. Plus we sent him down to St. Croix when they had
the huge hurricane down there where it wiped out the prison and
all these inmates escaped into the hinterland. So we had the HRT
down there for that.
But it was just, it was a mass confusion in the sense that there were
so many resources there, you know.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And, I mean, what we had was a barricaded subject; and we didn‟t
have a hostage situation. The Hostage Rescue Team wasn‟t
talking to the Negotiators and I was involved in breaking that up.
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Montgomery:
But the long and the short of this thing is that there are some things
I have seen during this ten days that I was there and, ultimately, it
was resolved … that I felt were not good. And one of them was
using the Hostage Rescue Team in a stationary situation, which
this was. I mean, SWAT Teams could have done the same thing,
you know. They had to just really man the perimeter.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And they‟re not trained for that. They‟re trained, primarily, as,
rescuers, active responders.
Wynkoop:
Right. You‟re right.
Montgomery:
And I could see a little blue flu occurring.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And what happened is that you had the Marshals going right to
their headquarters; their headquarters going right to, I think,
Sessions was the Director then, and then the Director sending this
HRT out, which really wasn‟t warranted when you get right down
to it. I mean … and there are a lot of things that, you know,
surfaced after that with … the Marshals were not real cooperative,
necessarily. I don‟t know if you, he was one of their top fugitives,
I guess. And, you know, they had had a surveillance teams out
there probably for six to eight months.
Wynkoop:
Exactly.
Montgomery:
Rotating in and out. It was kind of a boondoggle when you get
right down to it.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And then they, once we arrived, they kind of made themselves
scarce. So you didn‟t really have a good story.
Wynkoop:
You didn‟t really know what had …
Montgomery:
No.
Wynkoop:
… evolved, had gone on.
Montgomery:
No.
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Wynkoop:
Yeah.
Montgomery:
Because the word was that this is this huge firefight going on, you
know. And that was not the case. I mean, so we, the FBI got
involved in a homicide in the middle of the stream, basically. And
that‟s the other bad thing, you know. It‟s a lose, lose. Because
you‟re not going to, you know, once the deeds been done, I mean,
you really can‟t extricate yourself from it.
And then one of the problems I saw was Headquarters wanting
updates every ten minutes. And feeding the media, basically;
which is the wrong thing to do; because that occupied all your
time.
Wynkoop:
Well, it doesn‟t get you anywhere.
Montgomery:
No. Not one bit.
I was involved in getting Bo Gritz to act as an intermediary in the
negotiations. He was a highly decorated Vietnam veteran that did
not like the Federal government. He and his partner were true to
their word about trying to resolve the matter and ultimately the
situation was resolved after ten days.
There were some things I observed during my involvement that
had to do with operations. I went back to Washington D.C. in
November and imparted those observations to an after-action
group. My observations never made it up the management chain
and ultimately the Section Chief leading the after-action was
convicted of lying to the FBI.
Wynkoop:
Exactly.
Montgomery:
Because the things that I had mentioned in my „After Action‟ took
place.
Wynkoop:
In Waco.
Montgomery:
Six months later.
Wynkoop:
Yep.
Montgomery:
You know, in February of ‟93.
Wynkoop:
Who was the Section Chief who went to jail?
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Montgomery:
Mike Kahoe, I think.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
Well, it was, last name was Kahoe. Something like that.
Wynkoop:
Okay. That sounds right. I did not recall that. But, yeah, Larry
Potts and Danny Coulson; „cause I guess I knew Danny a little bit
in New York. Or well, I met him somewhere. But, yes, what
occurred six months later.
Montgomery:
But, I mean, that whole thing surfaced about who the rules of
engagement, who did what to whom; and, I mean, it was a mess.
Wynkoop:
We were just talking about Waco, you know, that six months later.
Montgomery:
Okay. Yeah.
Wynkoop:
So many things were not, so many things you recommended just
sort of didn‟t get to the table.
Montgomery:
No.
Wynkoop:
One question though, again, back at Ruby Ridge, so you and Bill
Gore, these ten days, were you just sort of …?
Montgomery:
We tried to keep negotiating … is what you try to do.
Wynkoop:
So you were speaking directly with Weaver?
Montgomery:
No. He wasn‟t answering. That was the big problem …
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
… for a good four or five days.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
And then we brought in his sister. We brought in, you know,
trying to get something going that we could establish a dialogue.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
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Montgomery:
And finally, Bo Gritz name came up. And Gritz was a native up
there. He‟s a kind of a war hero from Vietnam. And had a lot of
followers up, and this guy, I guess he‟s got a radio program or had
a radio program. And during this time, they were, a huge crowd at
the outer, outer perimeter …
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
… regarding this matter. And, calling for the impeachment of
Sessions and, you know … „because they did; they sent a whole
armada there for this thing.
So we got approval to use him as an intermediary. Which you
don‟t do that often because you don‟t have much control
sometimes when someone goes inside and starts talking. But I
remember, again, this goes back to my Vietnam thing again, sitting
in a jeep with him on the top of this hill and, and talking to him
about his experiences in Vietnam and mine and that how he needed
to do the right thing when he went in to talk to Weaver. That we
just want to resolve this thing and, you know, so that you built up a
rapport.
Wynkoop:
Exactly.
Montgomery:
And he did. He did a very good job of finally getting, coaxing
these folks out. They were, the problem is, you know hindsight‟s
20/20, but Vicki Weaver‟s lying dead on the floor in front of these
kids and, you know, we‟re talking to her. We don‟t know she‟s
dead.
Wynkoop:
Oh right.
Montgomery:
And the weather is cold enough that there‟s no odor.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And, so you can see why they were thinking that this government
was deliberately jabbing them, you know, talking to their mother
when she‟s laying dead on the floor and … because she was the,
from the profile, she was really the one that was kind of the strong
person of the family.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And that was the reason that …
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Wynkoop:
You were trying to talk with her.
Montgomery:
… we were trying to talk with her.
Wynkoop:
Now, in reading about the case, the whole thing, you know, the
missed court date and the letter; and it just, the whole thing, I
thought “oh my gosh, how many more things could go wrong
here.”
Montgomery:
Oh I know it.
Wynkoop:
Hmmm!
Montgomery:
I know it.
Wynkoop:
Wow. Okay. But, again, I‟m sure you just learned and saw, and
hopefully it‟s, after Waco we, the whole organization learned,
maybe more what we needed to learn.
Montgomery:
Yeah. I mean, and I think, you know, the testament to that is what
we did out in Montana, in ‟96. With the Freeman compound thing.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
You know, we took the lessons learned. We had Agents dress
down in blue jeans, with police cars rather than armored tracked
vehicles and jungle fatigues. You know what I mean?
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm. Uh-huh.
Montgomery:
And had the media, if they wanted information, they had to go
back to our Headquarters. We weren‟t going to entertain the media
out there on-scene.
Wynkoop:
Hmm! Which is important, I‟m sure.
Montgomery:
And so, you know, a lot of the things that we picked up from Waco
we applied there. And it worked. You know. It was a long haul,
83 days. But, you know, it was resolved, ultimately. And we used
some really unique techniques. I mean, you know, taking one of
the subjects out of the compound and flying him up to Billings to
interview the guy we had arrested initially to get this … and then
taking him back and letting him get back in the compound. I
mean, you know, things that you just don‟t realize that took place.
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Wynkoop:
Things that hadn‟t been thought of to try before.
Montgomery:
Right. Yeah.
Wynkoop:
That proved effective.
Montgomery:
And now, to get back to this, when I took over, when we started to
create CIRG, the militia was really in vogue. I mean, I don‟t know
if you recall in the early „90s, you know. Guns were a real big
thing and the government‟s coming in, when Clinton came in,
they‟re going to take away guns and all that other stuff.
Wynkoop:
Kind of like now.
Montgomery:
And I had a contact … well, Don Bassett, I guess, he‟s from
Quantico, a long-time guy at Quantico, was a contact with the
Michigan State University. And he approached me, and I
concurred. I said I‟d rather talk than not. So he put me in touch
with the folks at the Michigan State University Critical Incident
Response Program. They, in turn, put me in touch with the head of
the militia up in Michigan. And I had probably a two-hour
conversation on the car phone with him. And, you know, gave him
my cell phone number; gave him my pager, and we were in
communication, having never met. But we trusted one another.
We both, again, had that Vietnam experience.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
And he was able to persuade, you know, more radical types to keep
out of things. And I was able to give him information that was
accurate and not, you know, blown up so that there was a mutual
working agreement there. And there‟s no question that he made
our job easier by not letting these idiots come out and screw up the
crime scene. You know what I mean?
Wynkoop:
Oh yes.
Montgomery:
So that worked. And I didn‟t, I have to say, I didn‟t ask anybody
for permission to do that. And it was more like a hip-pocket thing.
But it worked very effectively.
Wynkoop:
And, again, that, what year is … well, you‟re just talking about the
early „90s?
Montgomery:
Uhm-hmm. But I‟m talking, when I took over that thing in ‟94.
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Wynkoop:
Well, you‟re talking about the Critical Response Group back at
Headquarters?
Montgomery:
Back at Quantico. Yes.
Wynkoop:
Okay. So we kind of just skipped over to there. Okay. And you
were appointed by Janet Reno to do this. Is that correct?
Montgomery:
Yeah. Obviously, with a recommendation by Freeh, but, I mean, I
had to be vetted by her personally. And I dealt with her after that;
and Jamie Gorelick who was her number two person. And, I have
to say, I found them very accommodating. I mean, they listened.
They were more of a collegial group rather than you get into that
mano a mano thing when you‟re dealing with males at that level.
You know what I mean?
Wynkoop:
Yes.
Montgomery:
So it worked very effectively. She‟d call me off-line on things,
you know; ask my opinion and, you know, without going through
the …
Wynkoop:
Chain-of-command?
Montgomery:
So, it worked.
Wynkoop:
And, again, you know, the Critical Response Group just sort of
evolved from things not going so well.
Montgomery:
Right. It was an effort and, to Freeh‟s credit, it was an effort to put
the resources necessary for crisis management under one umbrella
so that … and the other lynch pin to that was training all our
executives on how to use those resources. They hadn‟t done that
before. And, of course, when I first … I was looked at very
skeptically because they thought I was an informant for Freeh
anytime something would happen.
Wynkoop:
Uhm-hmm.
Montgomery:
Because my role was to go out on-scene no matter where. Okay.
Wynkoop:
Uh-huh. Anywhere in the U.S. you‟re saying.
Montgomery:
Yeah. That‟s right.
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Montgomery:
But, you know, I was able to demonstrate, I think, that my interest
was not in making a name for myself but to get the job done, and
use the resources we had at hand and I think that philosophy
trickled down throughout the group. And, I have to say, it‟s
expanded four-fold now.
Wynkoop:
It has.
Montgomery:
So it‟s very successful. And, again, it was to knock down the
stove-piping that was going on. And to provide the training to the
executives that had to use the resources so they just weren‟t
looking at whoever had the strongest scent on that date, you know.
So all those were interesting.
Wynkoop:
But I have talked with some individuals who have gotten out, you
know, somewhat recently, who were involved in the CIRG and it
has, as you said, it‟s evolved and has sort of been restructured to an
extent. And I think all for the positive.
Montgomery:
Yeah.
Wynkoop:
Are you in touch with many of those people down there now?
Montgomery:
I‟m not. I have talked to the Assistant Director a couple of times.
My son actually worked there, not as an Agent, but as a support
person before he became an Agent.
Wynkoop:
Okay.
Montgomery:
I still talk to my old secretary down there once in a while.
Wynkoop:
Who‟s still employed?
Montgomery:
Yes.
Wynkoop:
Okay. Great.
Montgomery:
But what‟s neat to me is standing something up that didn‟t exist
previously and having to do it under some real adverse conditions.
Number one, we didn‟t have, you know, we were spread all over
Quantico. We didn‟t have any one building or anything else like
that. Plus you had the Hostage Rescue Team wasn‟t talking to the
Negotiators and …
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Wynkoop:
Hmmm. Wow!
Montgomery:
Yeah. So there are a lot of things to overcome that don‟t come
down the pike in your normal course of business. So it was
interesting.
Wynkoop:
I‟m sure it was just interesting to see this evolution.
Montgomery:
Oh yeah!
Wynkoop:
Which had made you become a very patient individual. I would
think. It just doesn‟t happen overnight.
Montgomery:
No. No. Plus I had, at that time, I had a one- and a three-year-old
at home.
Wynkoop:
Well, that sounds, so much that you accomplished. It just sounds
like an amazing career. It really does.
Any other comments?
Montgomery:
No. I think one of the hardest things is when you leave, you don‟t
realize that the FBI has been your primary family. And you need
to get over that. It‟s hard to do sometimes.
Wynkoop:
I think it takes adjustments. Some people adjust better than others,
I think, perhaps.
Montgomery:
Well, I agree. You know, I think folks that have other interests …
I didn‟t. You know, that‟s my only interest was what I was doing
and so I‟ve had to learn. So, that‟s okay.
Wynkoop:
But you had interesting jobs, you know, after that. And now …
Montgomery:
Oh, I did!
Wynkoop:
… being the Chief of Police, I‟m sure you‟re able to draw on so
many things.
Montgomery:
No question.
Wynkoop:
Ohhh, I just think that‟s great!
Montgomery:
And it‟s kind of nice to be in a place where my kids are growing
up.
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Wynkoop:
Okay, Robin. Well, again, I‟m going to turn this off and I‟ll just
say a few words.
Montgomery:
Okay.
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