Question:
From: Jerry Schetterer <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 8:16 PM
Subject: [ASCA-L] Question to all BOD Candidates
To: [email protected]
To this year's BOD Candidates,
Very soon, ballots will be mailed. I would like to get some insight on how you feel about the stockdog
program. Specifically, I would like to know how each of you stand on the ASCA Board's proposed
Introduction to Stock "Program" that has been talked about the last couple of weeks.
Is this something that you think will be beneficial to ASCA or do you think it will be detrimental to the
SDC Program and ASCA. If you could spend a few minutes and state your reasoning behind your opinion.
Thanks for your time in advance.
Jerry Schetterer
Answer from: Jan Wesen <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [ASCA-L] Question to all BOD Candidates
To: [email protected]
I am running for the ASCA BOD and on the BOD and among the 6 that is working on Introduction to
Stock to add to Stockdog Program. We sent to membership so we would get input and we got
outstanding comments to improve this project to be something that can help people to learn about
stock. The response to the survey was in favor of this project. I believe as a BOD I need to work for all
members not just the most vocal.
Reason:
People are nervous with livestock and getting involved.
Educational project for affiliates to bring new people to ASCA
Insurance
On Event page on ASCA Web site so people can find them.
ASCA giving new people an opportunity will bring them to our program instead of others.
Personal- I don't like Instinct Test in other programs it isn't a good start for dogs. I am involved because
with work we can make this educational and informational and a good experience for livestock, dog and
handler.
Strategic Plan
This has been part of the strategic plan from before I was on the board. Obedience has introductory
level and Tracking is also working on introduction.
We need to invite people to Asca.
Thank you Jerry.
People are welcome to call with any questions it is an easier way for me to communicate. 360-3337131.
Jan Wesen
www.janwesen.com
Answer from: Pete Dolan <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [ASCA-L] Question to all BOD Candidates
To: [email protected]
This item is a work in progress. I responded to the survey from the Board soliciting membership input
concerning this topic. As an ASCA member, I responded that this should be an Affiliate educational
function not a Board mandate. This take was based on the "as written" proposal. My understanding is
that there is rewriting/amending in progress and the majority of respondents was in favor of the "as
written" proposal.
If you haven't responded to the survey, respond. Send your comments/suggestions to the Executive
Secretary so she can provide the Board a broader range of member input.
Thanks.
Pete
Overboard Aussies
Molly, Vinny, Annie II, and Lonnie
Never Forgotten - Gridley, Annie, Powder, Ohlee, Dewey, Nix, Lightning, and Squeak
Common sense ain't common. - Will Rogers
Answer from: Carol Gerken <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ASCA-L] WG: [ASCA-L] Question to all BOD Candidates
To: [email protected]
I am very interested in promoting the Stock Dog program. We work diligently in our area to do so. I
responded to the ASCA survey as an ASCA member and I urge all ASCA members to participate, even if
you have not participated in any stock venue before, or plan on doing so in the future. I believe that
promoting this as an educational program at the Affiliate level with herding demonstrations put on by
the club would be a great way to expose people to the sport of recreational herding. We have done
many for historical groups, pet fairs, and at community cultural events. I am not sure it needs to be
mandated by ASCA BOD or Stockdog committee. There are many many variables on what is available at
different locations, what is appropriate for the group you are presenting to, who is available to
participate, and what stock is available. I think the biggest thing is to show Australian Shepherds doing
the work they were bred to do with positive people in a positive light. I would be happy to discuss this
topic with anyone that might want to speak to me about it. The best way to reach me is to leave a
message on my phone 208-739-3246 :-)
Carol Gerken
Answer from: Preston Kissman
<[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:29 AM
Subject: [ASCA-L] Question to all BOD Candidates
To: [email protected]
I believe the Introduction to Stock Program would be beneficial to ASCA. Not in its current form, but
with the correct changes to the initial proposal such as removing the Pass/Fail decision. The ASCA Board
has assigned several of us Board members to take the initial proposal that was originated by a sub-set of
the Stockdog Committee to make improvements to the proposal with membership input, and then bring
it back to the Board for consideration. I hope that the ASCA Board can reach consensus so that every
Australian Shepherd will have the opportunity, if their owner is willing, to demonstrate the talent that is
bred into our great herding dog.
I believe there are Aussie owners that do not have the resources to provide that opportunity for their
dog. The ASCA Affiliate that they have membership in may not be able to provide no cost ‘play days’ or
seminars. These dogs and their owners are missing out on a real opportunity to have fun working
together as was the case 20 years ago. The Introduction to Stock Program may be able to help bridge a
gap between those of us that are dedicated to the herding program and those of us that want the
opportunity to try.
I also believe that identifying the right individuals to judge the Program is very important. They would
need to have the same skill set as ASCA Herding Judges. While I believe that not all herding judges
would want to be part of this Program, I do believe that there are those individuals that do enjoy
working with dogs and owners new to the herding program. I can remember when I was new to the
ASCA Herding Program 25 years ago and a supreme dog trainer and ASCA Judge by the name of Red
Oliver encouraged me. Please do not sell our ASCA Herding Judges short in their knowledge and ability
to handle this Program.
Preston Kissman
ASCA Board Member
Answer from: Lizette Busquets <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, May 2, 2017 at 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [ASCA-L] Question to all BOD Candidates
To: [email protected]
I think the stockdog program is extremely important and I, regardless of the fact that I am running for
the Board, have concerns about this proposal. Working dogs on stock for the first time is not for the
faint of heart. The safety of the dog, the novice handler, and the stock should be a primary concern. Yes,
we do have introductory levels for obedience. However, the potential for damage in working and
obedience are hardly comparable. It takes particular care to introduce dogs to stock and people who
compete in obedience at any level usually have had training of some sort before stepping in the ring.
Moreover, what exactly is the purpose of this proposed program?
One reason I have seen is to attract people to ASCA. This can be accomplished in so many ways that do
not entail an ASCA introduction to stock program!!
Another reason, that it will provide opportunities not available to many people, has been mentioned in
social media. Sure...I have personally been in situations where I have to drive hours to get to a trainer I
trust. It's difficult to get anything done in that situation. But, this is not the way to remedy a personal
issue. I think fun "Meet the Stock Days" can be an affiliate activity. It doesn't have to be part of an ASCA
program.
Here's another problem that I see and it has to do with the nature of dogs that work stock in the first
place. Dogs many times do not turn on to stock and it takes a patient, knowledgeable person in an
environment with no pressure to work with such a dog. On the other hand, there is the dog with
extreme prey drive or the dog with too much of an authoritarian approach. Each of these dogs need
different approaches to achieve control and I just think we're asking for trouble.
Finally, I have a problem with the idea that people who are judges or who have high level titles can
automatically do this as evaluators. Not everyone has approaches to training and introduction to stock
that are compatible with all dogs or all novice handlers. Under normal circumstances, the working judge
is not directly interacting with dogs or handlers. So, I'm not sure how evaluators will be accepted to the
program.
I'm also concerned that this will be used by breeders as proof of working instinct in the lines.
If ASCA wants to introduce a level below Started that still evaluates working ethic and instinct on a dog,
I'm sure that working savvy members could come up with a course that would do that. But, it would
have to be one that presumes that both the dog and the handler have received some previous training
in working stock.
Hope this answers your question.
Liz Busquets
ASCA Provisional Breeder Judge, Obedience Judge through Open
Member # 114984, since 1997
Answer from: Rachel Vest <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, May 4, 2017 at 3:55 PM
Subject: [ASCA-L] Candidate Questions & Other Topics - Rachel Vest Response
To: [email protected]
Introduction to stock – I support this as a method by which we may bring those interested in working
stock with their dog into the ASCA Stockdog program. I support a program that educates those
interested on how to handle stock in a respectful manner, what is required of them to work with their
dog, and to understand that a one day stock introduction does not mean that they have a trained
stockdog. I support the use of dog broke stock in a contained environment in which the Evaluator can
and must ensure the safety of stock, dog, and handler. Sanctioning these events through ASCA provides
Affiliates with the same insurance benefit that is common with ASCA stockdog trials. This is beneficial as
some Affiliates do not carry insurance. I do not support this as a method by which the Evaluators are
setting themselves up to make income from the dogs they are evaluating. If an ASCA Judge applies to be
an Evaluator, they must do so understanding that their purpose is to evaluate the dog’s interest in stock
on that day.
RV
Answer from: Judy Boone <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:15 PM
Subject: [ASCA-L] question for BOD candidates
To: [email protected]
Do I want to see some type of introductory event for stock? Yes.
Do I think it could benefit ASCA? Yes.
I don't see this "Introduction to Stock" as a measure of a dog's natural ability. No piece of paper or title
will tell us that. I do see it as a way to involve more people in our competitive program.
Will some people use it to say their dogs work? Perhaps - but those people probably already say it. A
title/certificate/instinct test by a trainer isn't a true estimate of a dog's ability. It only shows us what a
dog did on a certain day at a certain place.
Whether it is a certificate, a title, or an affiliate fun day, I would like to see something that promotes and
introduces people to stock work. This is a basic and integral part of our breed. I'd like to see them
introduced to the ASCA program, rather than other organizations.
Judy Boone
Member 100171
ASCA Director Candidate
Answer from: Leah Swatko <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 6:10 AM
Subject: [ASCA-L] Intro to stock
To: [email protected]
I am in agreement with Terry, re what is the value of adding this program.
I have attended instinct tests under the banner a several breed clubs. Mainly because the overall price
was lower and gave me an idea of what my dog could do in an arena.
We all know that not every dog turns on to stock the first time they are exposed. Then others get easily
frustrated and get a little grabby and barky.
IMO if an Affiliate wants to have an instinct test they can and do as an educational one or two day
seminar and practical exposure. However that slip of paper is nothing more than that dog on that day. It
holds no more value than winning a major and never getting the dog past that. On that day it was a
winner.
Leah Swatko
Date: Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 10:57 AM
Subject: [ASCA-L] MVA etc
To: [email protected]
I would like to remind all that derogatory remarks are more damaging to ASCA than I am sure the poster
intended. If I may recount something that could of easily turned me off of ASCA. I was entered in my
first ASCA Novice Obedience trial which happened to be at a Pre Show many years ago. I did not know
the dog went off leash for the stand, in CKC off leash started after the stand for exam. I was a little
surprised but my dog was fine doing the stand regardless. When I exited the ring I commented that I
didn't know ASCA went off leash for the stand and a long time ASCA person rudely remarked "I should
read the rules before I enter so I don't look like a fool" It was like a slap in the face. I still to this day
remember that person, even what they were wearing. I obviously got over the insulting remark and
have progressed. But I will never forget how that person made me feel.
Yes there will be poor stock runs, there will be tired annoyed and difficult stock who have learned over
the course of a week where the good places are to avoid the dogs. Started dogs are last to run and by
then the stock has learned well how to get back to the peace and quiet in the holding area. How to avoid
the dogs who have fewer skills (hey they are started) Been there done that and learned. Requiring a Q
on stock to enter MVA is going to remove many who do not have the money to get to stock trials. This
year the nearest trial is over 10 hours drive away and I will be on a judging assignment so won't be able
to go. My other options are 12+ hours away. Yet my dog who recently passed away was an excellent
stock dog in the real world of holding sheep away from the feed as I laid it out, he also kept the ram
from killing me on more than one occasion. He was the dog I took when called by a local farmer to go
and get his cows out of the bush. Could drive to the site tell him to go get the cows and he would be off
1/4 mile in dense bush and bring them out. That dog never titled so he would not be welcome in MVA?
He died of cancer the week before an event. Sit happens.
My opinion of the Introductory programs that have been handed to the already busy committees?
Personally I don't see the value of some of these entry level programs. As asked, how does this pertain
to the ASCA Intro to Stock?
I think there are more than enough instinct tests that people can utilize to test their dogs. For me it is a
4 hour drive each way. Which I have planned for the next month. I will be testing 3 dogs. Affiliates can
and should host learning opportunities for their area. The person who owns the stock and does the one
or two day limited entry seminar with a "test" is the better direction.
This additional program, if it does come to life, will generate much more work, meetings, rule
amendments, testing qualification requirements etc........ ad nauseam. It will take away from some of
the more serious work of the various committees who have been given this additional task.
Will this devalue the ASCA Stock Dog Program? No I don't think any of these programs will devalue any
of the performance events. However my earlier comments of an added burden of monitoring a program
and all the added requirements that come with making something official will spread the volunteers
over yet more acreage.
Change for changes sake, sometimes a waste of energy. The people who want this will "title" their dogs
and then move on to other interests. I have seen it time and again in my All breed club.
I am open to change for the betterment of the breed and of ASCA. I think the Altered program is a
shining example of what amounts to an excellent addition. Rally as well has generated tremendous
interest and participation. The addition of Finals in most ASCA programs gave me great joy. I was on the
Obedience committee back in the day and worked developing the OB finals. I was the first Canadian to
gain entry and competed in Open coming 7th the first year. I still treasure that medallion though my girl
has long ago left this world. It hangs on a painting of her and two of her offspring.
Thank you and have a good day...........
Leah Swatko
Judging ASCA
Rally Provisional
Obedience
Provisional Breeder Judge