AnInterviewingFocusedNewsletterHamletsmind.com
Hamlet’s Mind
Issue 44
December 2015
“He was wise enough to know that nothing ever happened on this globe, for good, at which some
people did not have their fill of laughter in the outset.”
― Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol
A selection of upcoming courses with open enrollments:
New Course: Once Upon A Fraud: North Carolina Justice Academy, Dec. 9–10.
$100 fee includes all course materials;
Professional Interviewing Skills: Association of Certified Fraud Examiners, New Orleans, Jan. 14-15;
Note: The training fee for the five-day courses offered through the community colleges is
approximately $125.00 and for the two-day courses, $70.00.
Interviewing and Interrogation: Guilford Technical Community College, Feb. 29–Mar. 4;
Interviewing and Interrogation: Robeson Technical College, Apr. 4–8;
Interviewing and Interrogation: Stanly County Community College, Apr. 25-29;
Once Upon a Fraud: Stanly County Community College, May 9–10;
Investigative Discourse Analysis: Robeson Technical College, May 23–27;
Advanced Interviewing: The Concept of Persuasion, Stanly County Community College, Jun. 6-7;
Interviewing and Interrogation: Rowan County Community College, Jun. 20-24;
Investigative Discourse Analysis: Rowan County Community College, Jul. 25-29;
Advanced Interviewing: The Concept of Persuasion, NC Justice Academy, Aug. 17-18;
New Course: How to Interview like a Psychopath: NC Academy, Sep. 20-21;
New Course: Surviving the First Three Minutes of Your Interview: NC Justice Academy, Sep. 22;
Interviewing and Interrogation: Guilford Technical Community College: Sep. 26-30;
Once Upon a Fraud: NC Justice Academy, Oct. 3-4;
Advanced Interviewing: The Concept of Persuasion, Rowan County Community College, Oct. 17-18;
DonRabon,[email protected]
AnInterviewingFocusedNewsletterHamletsmind.com
Note: In 2016:
My next book: “The Auditor’s Interviewing Survival Manual” – scheduled for release in late
spring.
New courses to be scheduled:
“Interviewer Personality Dynamics”
“Interviewer Communication Profile”
Also, next year, I will be providing free one-on-one coaching sessions for members of the
readership. Stay tuned!
The Concept of Persuasion
As we have addressed in previous issues, of the three, broad interviewing dynamics:
questioning, detecting deception and persuasion, the third element is the most challenging and
problematic for the interviewer. I have not seen a goodly number of interviewers in harm’s way
because of their inability to ask questions or evaluate veracity. Anytime I have had to go to bat
for an interviewer, it has always been over an issue regarding gaining compliance. Gaining
compliance is one thing. Gaining compliance in a manner that will “stand” is quiet another.
Confrontational, acrimonious and contentious approaches that may have been ubiquitous and
accepted thirty, twenty, ten or even five years ago, are now, no longer going to “fly” and have
the distinct possibility of returning like Jacob Marley and haunting the individual as well as the
organization.
The interviewer, now, must not only be an effective persuader, but additionally, a
persuader who can close with the persuadee being accepting of the process whereby the
compliance was secured. In most cases, I do not expect the persuadee to be happy with regard to
the consequences of their compliance but I do want them to be tolerant of the manner in which I
brought about their willingness to comply. Failing to do so, opens the door to the regret factor
coming into play, which causes the persuadee to either recant their admission or challenge the
manner in which compliance was obtained.
Three, most effective, compliance gaining strategies that can serve to minimize the
adverse outcomes described above are: stories, metaphors and similes. A story serves to engage
and focus the mind of the interviewee. The story transports the interviewee into a world
(example, circumstance) wherein the interviewer can make the point in an indirect fashion. For
example, “Mary, you remind me of a woman that sat in that very same chair. And what had
happened was . . . . . .”
DonRabon,[email protected]
AnInterviewingFocusedNewsletterHamletsmind.com
Similes compare something to something else – something it is not. Think of the usage
of the words “like” or “as”. For example, “Mike, this situation is just like you have fallen out of
a boat.” The interviewee sees the construct and their subsequent reaction in the first and applies
it to the second.
To me, while serving a similar contra-comparison purpose, metaphors are stronger in
their application than similes. For example, “Mike, you have fallen out of the boat.”
In the “Advanced interviewing: the concept of persuasion” course, we learn
specifically how to develop and apply all three – stories, similes and metaphors.
Try this: really pay attention to conversations going on with and around you. Notice how
other persons’ narratives are replete with stories, metaphors and similes. Next, listen to your
own narratives. The big three are already there. It just takes a bit of effort to purposefully and
effectively incorporate them into your compliance-gaining undertakings. Believe me, it is well
worth the effort.
Interviewing tips
Interested in getting your interviews off on the right foot? Do this:
Put away your cell phone in advance;
Immediately establish comfortable eye contact with the interviewee;
Smile (it won’t hurt, no matter who they are);
Speak their name;
Shake their hand;
Introduce yourself and
Thank them for taking the time to talk with you.
Always appreciated wires from the bunkers
Don, the dynamics of society are moving toward less contact with other people and
more time with technology. Because of this circumstance, I think over the next five years, the
role of body language assessment in an interview will need to be re-evaluated. I have taken many
CPE hours on the topic as I find it to be very interesting. It is my understanding that body
language plays a very important role in interviewing.
Rabon: These observations from this readership representative are accurate. The diminished
quality and quantity of interpersonal communication is having a dramatic, negative influence for
those sitting in each of the two chairs in the interview setting. Check out nomophobia.
DonRabon,[email protected]
AnInterviewingFocusedNewsletterHamletsmind.com
Hi Don,
I was introduced to you when I attended one of your ACFE two day, training sessions last year.
In that class, you talked about the importance of a formal, written, interview policy and manual.
You mentioned if we emailed you, you might be able to provide a sample or baseline for getting
started. I am hoping that offer is valid. I handle most of the internal, audit, forensic interviews
and have been tasked with developing an internal interviewing manual and policy. Any guidance
you offer would be greatly appreciated.
Rabon: I have attached a template that identifies a process for policy development. If you do
start down this road, it is important that you keep minutes of each meeting: dates, those in
attendance and summaries. In addition to the policy development itself, being able to show the
time and effort put into developing a policy, illustrates the good intentions of the organization
toward developing a policy that is valid, effective and fair to all concerned. In the event there is
ever an issue regarding an interview, this documentation is most advantageous.
Note: I received the following inquiry from the field: "What do you think is the most difficult
part of an interrogation"?
Rabon to readership: I have AN answer, not THE answer - when we believe we have THE
answer, we tend not to think anymore. That being the case, what is AN answer from YOUR
perspective?
Note: Another inquiry. This one is ongoing, but I thought you might be interested in the
beginning of this dialogue and might even have a thought or two of your own:
Don,
___________ here. Hope you remember me, district Court judge. Would you be willing to give
me your cell number? I use what you taught me in court often to help decide, weigh who to
believe. Might want to share observations as lying, deceiving is getting worse and at times
seems to be more sophisticated than ever.
Rabon: First off, thank you for contacting me. Second, I know your assessment from the bench
is spot on. The willingness to deceive has most certainly increased, while the inclination to feel
badly about doing so, has decreased proportionally. Concurrently, I am not seeing those who
feel badly about what they have done, but rather feel badly that they got caught. I wonder if that
mindset parallels your finding in the courtroom environment?
Look around, from vehicle manufactures regarding emission tests to sports figures
utilizing performance-enhancing drugs to teachers changing end-of-grade tests to increase their
salary bonus, agenda-driven media reporting (?), not to mention national and international issues,
one cannot throw a rock and not hit an example of deception. And that's the thing for us – the
DonRabon,[email protected]
AnInterviewingFocusedNewsletterHamletsmind.com
interviewer examines society on a cellular level. Society’s “suit” may look wonderful – like that
worn by a corpse in a coffin. But if the pathology on the cellular level is not treated, it’s just as
dead.
Let’s look at the gamut that concludes in the good judge’s courtroom:
(1) Societal ------- (2) Commission of the crime ------- (3) Interview ------- (4) Adjudication
Beginning in this issue, and for the next three issues, I will address (hopefully, not aud
nausium) what I see as the connectivity beginning with “one” and concluding with “four”.
Ultimately, I want to address what interviewing accommodations I think will need to be made.
Why? As we have addressed previously, whatever may be going on in the world today – rightly
or wrongly – is exemplified by whoever is sitting in the other chair across from the interviewer.
I don’t care whether it is an employment interview or a crime related interview, the
interviewee brings with him, like lint on a dark suit, the societal DNA that he has picked up and
incorporated along the way. You, the readership, are part of those that will be conducting the
interviews in the future, long after I have “Harleyied off” into the sunset. Addressing the “now”
is the first step for preparing for the “then”. Now, back to the DNA metaphor:
That DNA includes, but is not limited to:
A. Situational ethics;
B. Relinquishment of responsibility;
C. Principle indistinctness;
D. Narcissistic self-absorption.
Since the 1960s, the four criteria listed above have been illustrative of the societal mindset. An increasingly steady diet of:
A. “You have to decide what is right and what is wrong in a given situation - no absolutes”;
B. “If you are not getting good grades, it is certainly not your fault”;
C. “Do, whatever – just don’t get caught” (think radar detectors);
D. “Lets all sing the, “I am special song and then take a selfie”.
What are we seeing as the downstream consequences? What existential accommodations
and modifications have we made, currently are making and will, in the future make, to adjust to
the increasing temperature of the water?
Deception is the polar opposite of trust. Trust is the fabric that holds society together.
As deception becomes more acceptable and increases, there is a negative, inverse relationship
regarding trust.
With the first element, “societal” and I, most definitely, include the family unit within
DonRabon,[email protected]
AnInterviewingFocusedNewsletterHamletsmind.com
that category, there has been, in the last fifty years, a dramatic shift from “children should be
seen and not heard” to “children are the center of the universe.” There are now books
encouraging adults to seek the wisdom of a child. Add to the mix, the whole “self-esteem, I-amspecial and most certainly entitled” and voila, you have an individual who is, at best, selfcentered, easily offended, unable to delay gratification with the belief that the world owes them a
living for just being the wonderful, special person that they are. Now, these individuals, in their
twenties, thirties and forties are still, emotionally, children.
Don’t get me wrong – I don’t blame them. They are nothing more than a product of their
environment. I believe more often than not, those who molded them into what they devolved,
had good intentions. I just have to investigate them and subsequently, interview them. With
regard to the interview, I have made the adjustments but we will address those later.
Why do you think we are experiencing this reluctance to transition into adulthood and the
parallel dearth of respect for the truth? I have my ideas but before I put more of them on paper, I
would like to know your thoughts.
Agree?
Disagree?
What do you think?
Take a moment and put in your two cents worth.
Remember, it isn’t necessary that we agree. As my dad told me, “Son, if we all thought
alike, everyone would be in love with your mother”. It is only necessary that we think.
My five texts (and no one should ever be without them all):
The texts I have currently in publication are:
Interviewing and Interrogation, 2nd edition;
Fraud Related Interviewing;
Persuasive Interviewing;
Investigative Discourse Analysis 2nd Edition;
These can be ordered directly from Carolina Academic Press - (919) 489-7486, online at
http://www.cap-press.com or www.amazon.com.
DonRabon,[email protected]
AnInterviewingFocusedNewsletterHamletsmind.com
My newest text, “An Endless Stream of Lies: A Young Man’s Voyage into Fraud” – is
available in electronic and print formats. Either format can be ordered directly from
www.amazon.com
If you would like a set of power points
and an instructor guide that parallel the
text, please contact me at:
[email protected]
Do you like to read good fiction? Check
out, The Inheritance by J.W. Scott. It is
just the thing for airplanes, airports or
just relaxing by the fire. It is available in
print and electronic format at:
Amazon.com
Until the February, 2016 issue: may next year be best ever for you and yours.
Don Rabon, CFE
DonRabon,[email protected]