1
ZOYA ELHASSAN.
TRANSCRIPT of OH 1985V
This interview was recorded on August 20, 2014, for the Maria Rogers Oral History
Program. The interviewer is Akiko Tohno. The interview also is available in video
format, filmed by Ghada Elturk. The interview was transcribed by Susan Becker.
ABSTRACT: Zoya Elhassan emigrated from Sudan to Boulder eight years ago. In this
interview, she describes where she lived in Sudan, near the capital city of Khartoum,
some of the traditions of her homeland that she treasured—such as the warm, supportive
social structure among women and the elaborate wedding customs; the reason that she
and her husband immigrated to the United States; how she adjusted to life here, learned
English, and created friendships; her enjoyment of the beautiful landscape and the
friendly, helpful people she has met here; and how she now considers Boulder her home.
She has special praise for the Boulder Public Library, its Outreach Program, and former
outreach director Ghada Elturk for being instrumental in helping her feel at home in
Boulder.
NOTE: This interview is part of a series in which immigrant members of the Boulder
Public Library’s English conversation class interviewed each other about their home
countries and their experiences since arriving in Boulder. The interviewer’s questions
and comments appear in parentheses. Added material appears in brackets.
[A].
00:00
(Thank you for coming. The first question is where you were born?)
Okay. Thank you so much for having me today for this interview. The first thing to say,
my name is Zoya Elhassan, and I'm originally from Sudan.
(Sudan!)
Yes, Sudan, which is a country in Africa. I can show you here on the map where my
country is. This yellow, with this green, this is the Sudan, and it is just like in the north or
center of Africa, south to Egypt. Sudan is considered—was—the biggest country in
Africa before the separation.
(So how long have you been living in United Sates and Boulder?)
Okay. I came to United States finally in 2005, and I came right away to Boulder. So I live
in Boulder since 2005; eight years now, living in Boulder.
(Can you describe the climate and the landscape in your country?)
2
Okay. Sudan is considered like a country of—almost is a desert. Desert country in north
of Sudan. And like forest in the south of Sudan. So the north of Sudan is very dry and
very hot area. And you move towards the south, so you see like green and forest and very
nice climate and weather in the south of Sudan. In the north of Sudan, we don't have a lot
of rain, the rainy season is very short, but in south of Sudan, it rains a lot.
(Which is the most beautiful place in your country? Can you describe it?)
The most beautiful place in my country. [smiles] Okay. Everything ______ in my country
is beautiful. We have really—the most beautiful thing is the Nile River. We have the
longest river in the world. Along the Nile River you can go and see beautiful views all
over the country from the south to north. And also we have very beautiful wildlife in
Sudan. If you visit some area, we call it _____ area, which is full of wildlife, and it's
very beautiful. You go to the west of Sudan, and we have the mountain we call Jabal
Marrah mountain, which is a wonderful place to visit, to stay, and you see the waterfalls
and the trees and the mountain.
And if you go to the east of Sudan too, also we have beautiful mountain too, and we have
the gulf like the Red Sea area. So we have many places in Sudan to go for tourists and to
see.
(Wow. Such a beautiful place.)
And actually, the place that I came from, the city—or say the village that I grew up in,
and I lived in it for a long time—it's very nice. It's an island. It is in the middle of—if you
see here, the map, and here is Khartoum, where the river—where the Blue Nile and the
White Nile meet to form the river line is where I live. It is called Tuti Island. We have to
cross everyday before—until—like 2006. Since I was little, we have to cross the river
everyday. We started by ferry, at that time, and then it come a little bit like more
advanced, and they have a small boat—this is electrical [?] we call it, the boats that use
machines. And now they have a bridge—it's just like six years ago they have it.
05:11
(A really long bridge or—?)
Yeah. It is kind of not very big, but it is good for the _____. And people love it; they
come across riding cars, driving cars. Before we have to park our cars. There's a huge
parking lot, this is in the side of the capital. So we have to cross every day to go to
school, to go to work, because it's only—it’s a living area. People just live there but they
go across every day to go to schools or work.
But the good about the place that I lived in is it is surrounded by farms. So everybody,
most of the people own their own farms, they cultivate their own vegetables and all that
fruit, everything, in the same island.
3
(So, island. Because of the Nile River?)
Yes, you see the Nile River it comes—I have to prepare _____ map for you. But it goes
like that—
(Yeah, I understand.)
And here [demonstrating on map], the White Nile and the Blue Nile meet here, this area
is an island called Tuti. It is in the middle here.
(You think the culture is very different?)
Yes, this is a good question. The culture is very different. You know what? Although we
live in the middle of the capital of Sudan, Khartoum, but if you cross the Nile from
Khartoum to go to my place, my village, it's completely different culture. Because still
people live their old traditional life. So you see, people are very bonded to each other,
and the social life is people like visiting each other every day. Everybody you know,
every single person, in that village. So it is different from the modern and the style in the
capital.
(But they still speak same language.)
We speak the same language, yeah, and most of them originally are like from the same
tribe, or maybe two to three tribes only live in this island.
(Wow; it's interesting. So, will you please describe a custom you think is most
representative of your culture?)
Okay, my culture. The most custom that represents my culture—our social life, with all
our traditions we have in our culture. This is completely different, because we are mixed,
we are not like completely African, and we're not completely Arab. We speak Arabic, but
it is still our African culture is deeply originated in my culture. So one of the things that I
really like in my culture—how the strong bond between people. Like people in the same
neighborhood, even in the same village, they are very connected, they are very supportive
to each other—help each other—celebrating ever single thing—happiness or sorrows
together, yeah?
And also our tradition—I like our tradition in the wedding—is completely different,
totally different. And it's very beautiful, like we're wearing our own tradition[al] dresses,
and we have our drums, and maybe the wedding can be continued for five to six days.
(Really!)
And you have to invite the whole village and all your other relatives from every place—
they come—and maybe a wedding may be a thousand or two thousand attending it.
4
(So what do you do, during the five days?)
Okay, you have to celebrate the bride. There is three days before—celebrate the bride—
what we call a El Henna, which is a kind of tradition with henna—
10:06 (Ah, yes!)
—and this is like a big party for all the people, especially women, to dance. And we have
our traditional singer at that point. Women also come and use the drum and sing a lot, a
lot, for that day, and then you have to celebrate other days the groom—henna too. There
is henna for men too.
(So one day for bride, one day for groom.)
Yeah. And then the second day is for both of them. They can do whatever they want to
do—if they want to wear a white dress, they have to do it. And then the fourth day, they
have to wear our traditional—with a lot of gold all over—and again, it's also like only
traditional songs by men and women, and traditional dance. And then, the last day, they
have to do—we have some traditions, we call it jirtik, and it is a tradition about wishes
for the bride and groom by the old women in the community. They have to come and put
some kind of perfumes that are local-made by women too. They put them in their head
and their face, and also they drink milk—which makes a sign because it is white, so it is a
sign of happiness, and wishing for them a good life. So they drink this and they have
to switch [?] together, drink it, and that means on that day now it is done and they can go
on their honeymoon. But maybe still you have part of your family still staying with you.
(So people still have the traditional way?)
Yeah, we have it until now.
What kind of dress or clothing—?)
It's like—you know what, this is what I'm wearing now—this is like normal wear, but
because in that day, all the women, they have to wear very beautiful wear—beautiful with
beads, sparkling, and making henna all over their hands. So, the bride, she has a special
one to wear that [was] made like a couple of months ago, and then she has to put gold in
her hair, gold all over her hands. She looks different from the others, but all the women—
ladies— in that day, they wear really beautiful dresses.
And I just wanted to mention—in Sudan, mostly we wear this [indicates what she is
wearing], most women, we wear this when you go out to visit. And if you go to work,
still, you can wear it, but we wear it in very light color to work. Maybe most of the
women work it in like white, maybe or off-white. It's just like—a place to work, you don't
wear something sparkling and colorful. But you go for visits and if you go for anything,
you wear—we call it toob. Sudanese toob. These days, not all the girls wear it, but still, it
is our tradition, and we stick to it.
5
(It's a beautiful culture.)
Thank you.
(Thank you. So next question: can you tell me about jobs you held in your country?)
What do you mean?
(Did you have a job?)
Ah! When I was there? Yeah. Actually, I graduated from University of Khartoum, Sudan,
while I was there. And I started working right away in women issues. I started for,
actually, environmental awareness, because as I told you Sudan is a very drought country.
So we started to go and work with women, encouraging them to plant trees in their
area—in their houses, in their villages—around their villages—to protect them
from desertification. And then after that, I did my master's degree in Germany, in
women's development, and I worked in Sudan in different non-profit organizations,
mainly empowering women—by education and by income-generating activities. This is
what I work in Sudan.
15:02
(Okay. So how is the women's status in Sudan? Is it easy to find a job or—)
You know what, it is just like what is going on all over the world now. You can find—but
we have inflation, we have some economic problems in Sudan, so there still like
struggling to find jobs. But they can go to school—a woman in Sudan, she can go to
school until higher education, and they can work in any position, like judge or in the
government.
(Okay, next question: when and why did you decide to come to the United States?
[laughs] You are smiling.)
Okay. We—you know what? Like, say, fifteen, twenty, or nineteen years ago, the
situation in Sudan start to degenerate. The government that is in [?] Sudan now, is not
like really working towards helping people, so everything is getting _____. Like if you
talk about education. Education is not very good, and at the same time it's very
expensive, and they move to the private education more than the public, which in Sudan,
most of the people are like middle class—they need public education more than can be
available for everyone. And then, also, the health is very bad—the hospitals and
everything. So we decided to find another chance, opportunities for our kids. So we
decided to see if we can go, and we got lucky to be able to come here to United States.
We decided to see if it works for us and our kids, so we can stay. And now, we stay!
([laughs] So then, you come to Boulder from Sudan?)
6
Yes.
(Oh, wow. How did you find the city of Boulder?)
Okay, yeah. It is very interesting.
(If you don't mind telling us—)
No, it's fine. We moved 2005, and I remember when we moved to Boulder, it's very rare
and hardly to see dark skin in Boulder, at that time. I remember, we walked out of the
house and like no diversity at all at that point. But what I like—and it impressed me from
the first time—how people liked—nice—like people—the smile on your face. They will
look at you—if you need help, they will try to help you. So this gives me some comfort,
like okay, we might try this place. And we tried it, and we had really good experience
here.
And also, like the thing that they have here, open for the public, like the public library.
And this is what I did like—the first day I moved, and then the second day I went to the
library. And it was really funny to me, because I went, and I was like, "Can you just
walk—"and then I asked and I met Ghada [Ghada Elturk, outreach librarian at the time]
by chance in the library, the first person that I met, and right away she came to me, and
she greeted me, and I'm like, "Okay, somebody now—." And my daughters, they were
very little at that time—eight and five years old. And then she introduced herself to me,
and then I feel more comfortable—okay now.
And then she asked—I'm sure she recognized—like, "I think you are from Sudan."
And I was shocked, this lady knows even—and from where. We talked together, and she
right away tried to give me like full orientation about the library, what the library offers
and everything. So I thought, okay, this is a place of knowledge, all the information you
need, so you don't have to worry about anything. And from that day it started—whenever
I need something, even walk or just pick up the phone and ask, even if I want something
around Boulder, I just like—my reference is the Boulder Public LIbrary to ask about
anything there, which is really very helpful.
And I found also, the same day, she told me about, we can now issue you a library card.
And I asked, "How can I get the books?"
And she said, "No, you just borrow the books and bring them back."
And I’m like, "All free? How do they trust?" Because, you know, like back home, we
don't have that. Because you get the book, maybe you—
(You think somebody's going to take it.)
7
_____ or not, yeah? Oh, that is good—even you can have books and go and read for your
kids. So I started—from that time, I started to come to the public library, borrowing
books, and also volunteer at the library at some events.
(Wow. It's a really good story.)
21:15
(So—)
[break in recording]
Continue about public library?
(Yeah, or if you want to talk—yes—)
Just because, to me the public library is a very good thing for people, especially for
foreigners who are coming from overseas and for people who are coming
from developing country and are overwhelmed by everything here that you do. So you go
to the library, and especially the Outreach Program. Because when you go there you see
the people who are working there, you see how they really welcome you, and they help
you to feel comfortable about even if you are from a different place, but still this place is
also for you.
So I started, the first thing when I—the most things that I started at that time, like to
volunteer a lot at the public library. Which I did like—they opened this volunteer
opportunity for people, yeah? So this helps you feel confidence, to feel that you trust
others, to feel like, okay, I can do something here—even in a new place, different culture,
different climate—especially the snow is really like something new to me, yeah.
(You saw the snow, first time—)
It was the first time for me. I came from like 120 or 130 degrees. And I came to
minus _____. So, you feel like, okay, this is a place that you can do something even if
you are struggling with the culture or you are struggling with weather, but still you can
do something. So because of that, I keep going and volunteer a lot in the public library,
because also it opens opportunities for you to know other people, to know other places in
Boulder, other opportunities like job opportunities and all this. So it's very helpful to me
when I moved here. And now I'm like, a Boulder person.
(What do you think about Boulder?)
It's my place now. I can go everywhere, I can do everything. And I like the nature here. I
really like the nature. To go out, especially during summer, to go and see trees
everywhere, and go and see the mountains—it's a very beautiful place.
8
(Do you remember the first impression of Boulder when you arrived? Do you remember
the day?)
It's just a mix of feelings, the first impression to you. Because, like, you feel like you—
okay, it's like the first impression is really hard to describe, because you feel like, okay,
I'm here now, far away from my home, from my people, from my country, and you came
from a totally different place, from all points—like different people, different culture,
different weather—yeah, so the first impression is kind of like some fears [?], asking
yourself, are you sure that's the way you want to make it here, you can make it here, you
can find your _____ here, you can do something here.
25:22
But gradually, you can change your feelings and then extend to positive things.
(So how was your English? You learned English—)
I learned a little bit back home. But when I came here, also one of the things that in the
public library and one of the things that I remember Ghada told me—from the first day
she gave me like books and also DVDs and tapes—you can go and listen. Because the
same thing to me is the difficult accent. Somebody talk to you and how do you pick up
only two words? And I'm like, what's that? Because the accent, people speak fast—fast
compared to back home, because back home we speak our language: Arabic. So English
sometimes we just see on papers. But also after that, she introduced me to Boulder
Reads! and I joined the program, and I benefitted a lot from it.
(What are your favorite things to do in Boulder?)
Okay. As I told you, I love nature, so I go for a walk a lot. I like to go and walk. I also do
hiking, not that much—and this is interesting, because before I was really scared of
hiking, because I came from sea level area, sea level place, and I didn't live next to
mountains all my life until I moved here. So the mountains felt to me a little bit scary, but
I was with my friends here, and we want to talk about, okay, this is like a little bit scary—
okay, let us try hiking. So I tried hiking, and I like it really. So I go like for—
(So you like hiking. That's good!)
And walking more.
(Walking more?)
Yeah.
(Do you walk around your house?)
No, I love to walk in the trails. I go on trails and walk the trails a lot.
9
(Tell me about your friendships that you have made here in Boulder.)
Okay. I just wanted to say something that I'm very open, outgoing person, and I'm not
like a person who prejudges on people. I like to know people. So this has helped me a lot
here, when I moved. So I started to—I can even introduce myself to someone. I started
actually also by my neighbors, because, traditionally in Sudan, you cannot live by
yourself in your house. You have to have connections with all neighbors around you. And
we lived in a complex like for the student housing. And this was very helpful here,
because I started like, okay, see my neighbor and I started to say hi and introduce myself
and spoke to them. And even because traditionally in Sudan, if you make something at
home, you have to give some to the neighbor. So I started to do that. And I was like, how
they can accept it? And they did accept it. When I make any kind of food, I took some
and then okay, can you try my food?
And this is what—this brings me back, because we were in Germany for a couple of
years, my husband and I, and I remember in Germany—the difference between the
German and American—American is very open people. And they are very eager to know
about you—your culture—everything about you. German a little bit very contained. So I
remember it's hard to offer some food to them, but here I found it easy. People can eat,
can try your food.
And I went even further here, like with my neighbor; like, okay, if you need something
and you don't want to run to the store, don't go to the store, come and knock on my door,
because in Sudan we do that. And we had this, like someone wants just one bit of
onion—she doesn't need to go to the store and get it. She can knock on my door—and I
do the same too.
(Yes. Yes. Very traditional.)
Yes. And I made friendship with different people. Like American, other nationalities—
like from Africa, from South American, from Asia—from all over the place. Yeah.
30:37
(Yes, I see a tea set there. Could you describe that?)
Okay, as I told you, when you asked me about—I said I like the social life.
(The social life? Mm-hmm.)
Because most of the women in Sudan, especially the woman in my age, maybe your age,
they don't work, and even in our holidays, we always have a social time together—like
noon or a little bit after noon—the people get together, women get together and have tea
or coffee together. It's important. Every day in the neighborhood it happens. You cannot
stay one day without someone knock on your door and come in. You don't have to make
an appointment to come in. So this is one of our traditions.
10
We use this part for the coffee [shows a vessel with a round bottom and a long neck].
And then, the women, they have a small stove using charcoal next to them, and they put
it, they make the coffee in it and then they pour it here and you can put it [the coffee
holder] also in the charcoal to stay warm. And you have this, like a stand for it [shows a
stand shaped like a ring that stabilized the spherical bottom of the coffee holder]. This is
made by the women too. And they do it here when they are drinking their coffee, they
start making this and then just give it away to each other. And this is also, like this is how
we drink our coffee traditionally. So you pour it like that [demonstrates pouring coffee
into small cups]—yeah—and you may add sugar, which is important—you cannot drink
coffee or tea without sugar back home.
And also one of our traditions, you have to offer something if you have—like dates, like
you see dates [points to dates on a tray] and maybe if you have any kind of candy. If not,
you don't have to. And also, we make—because we have some festivals we do—after
Ramadan, if we are fasting, after Ramadan we have a big feast. We call it Eid al-Fitr.
And then we cook, we bake this kind of cookie [shows cookies that she has brought that
are on the tray next to the dates], and it's easy. Made by women and with sugar in it. And
you have it for the whole holiday celebration. And also you make it maybe throughout
the year for people if they come to your house and visit.
(How does the coffee taste like. Is it like American?)
No.
(Is it darker?)
Yeah, it's dark. Yeah. You want to try some? I can give you—
(Later I will try—)
I can give you some now.
(No, that’s okay; I'll try later for sure.)
Okay.
(Okay, thank you. So can you find those kind of date or cookies from your home town
here?)
Yes, because you now what? We produce dates in Sudan. We don't need even to get it
from anywhere. In the far north in Sudan, there's a place there; it's like they have date
trees all over. So it grows there, and then they bring it to Khartoum or all over Sudan.
(Can you find it in Boulder?)
11
No, this one, we cannot find ours in Boulder. But we can get it from Sudan. And it’s
different. The one that I had, we ate it all during Ramadan, because in Ramadan, we have
to eat dates. But here, we buy it [the dates] from here. But usually we bought some from
Sudan. Which is different, like a little bit harder than this here. But this [the cookies] is—
I can make it—I made it.
(Wow. You made it!)
Yes.
(I thought you purchased it.)
No, no, no. Ours is different. Tastes different too. You have to taste it too.
34:50
(Okay, I will taste it. Next questions is: what do you miss about Boulder, like when you
are away from Boulder, do you miss something about Boulder?)
Yeah, yeah. Boulder now became my place, yeah? My home now. So I really miss
Boulder, and I miss the quietness in Boulder, because when you go to—naturally, I don't
like crowded, busy cities. I like Boulder, because I miss—it's very calm, very quiet, and
easy to drive.
(Yes!)
Which is really important to me, to drive around. People—I miss people too. People here
are very helpful, if you ask for something, you find help right away. And the nature! The
mountains,you find different _____ here. Yeah. I miss it a lot here when I am away from
it.
(How about, do you miss something—your country, do you miss it?)
Yeah, definitely. I miss it every day. I'm here now for eight years, but still—
(What kind of thing do you miss?)
You miss your people, you miss your family, because you are far away, and if you want
to go, you can not make it every year; you need to make it for three, four years, which is
far. But I miss them every day. I miss socializing there, hospitality. Yeah. Your home.
(Do you have a job here?)
Yes. I'm working at Boulder Valley School District. Assistant teacher in Community
Montessori School here in Boulder.
12
(That’s for children?)
Yeah. Elementary school in Boulder.
(Elementary school. How do you like it?)
I like it, yeah. It's a very good place to work, the school that I work in. Very good
environment. And very helpful people. They work in teams—the spirit which is—which I
like.
(Okay. Next question is can you describe how did you know about the library? And what
does it mean to you?)
How did I know about the public library? You know what? When I moved here, the
second day, the first place I visited by chance was the public library. I walked, and I
found public library. And I was: what is that place? What do they mean by public library?
So this is the reason I went in, and as I told you before, I met—I guess by chance—in the
lobby was Ghada. And she looked at me, and she walked back to me, right away, and she
asked me about—
(By chance?)
Yeah.
(So what does it mean to you, Boulder Library?)
It means to me—it's really like a world of knowledge and information, the place that you
can find everything. And you can feel—especially at the beginning, you feel it's like your
family, because you start—bonded with people there, and especially the Outreach
Program. You feel this is your family, your place. Whenever you need something, you
just right away ask questions and you find answer right away.
(Oh, you described before, but I'll ask the question anyway: do you feel that Boulder is
home to you now?)
Yeah. Yes. Definitely.
(And why, do you think?)
You know, just you live in a place, you will love the people around you, and you find
people are nice too, and it's comfortable to work in it. So you feel, okay, this is what I
need, so it's my home now.
(Thank you! Is there anything else you would like to talk about? Or you want to say?)
13
Um—I'm trying—okay. [pause while thinking] Maybe, I don't know if I miss this or I
don't know about it, but I think if there is—I feel like we need more programs for women
here. Especially for like women who came from overseas. To expose themselves more
and find more opportunities, because you come here and you're struggling with different
things—like you have kids and you need to go for a vacation—although in the public
library, they help you, they direct you—but I think we need more programs or more
networking that can help you more.
(To support the women from the foreign countries.)
Yup. And thank you so much for the interview. I appreciate your time too.
(Thank you so much!)
Thank you.
[Break in recording. Recording resumes to cover one more topic]
(Oh, I noticed that you have a picture of Martin Luther King, Jr. Could you tell us about
it a little bit?)
Yeah. I have the picture of Martin Luther King with "I have a dream"—the speech that he
had long ago. Martin Luther King for me is a hero, and when we were back home, we
read a lot about the history here. And it's always to me, he is a hero, because he was a
leader of the—and still, I think—even [though] he's died, he still is a leader of the peace
movement, which I really believe in it, that everything can be solved by peace. And his
journey for peace to change everything in the country by the peace movement—I admire
that. So for me, he is like an inspiration. And I love to read about him. I like that. And put
it here also for my kids, my daughters, to read it, to read about it, and see everything what
can be possible, and everything can happen if you are using the right tools in your life to
change. So if you want—and also to me, you have, as we say, you have to be the change
you wish. So to me, Martin Luther King, he changed all the world—not only here in the
United States, yeah? So I always look at it at some point—at every moment that I feel
like this is something difficult, I cannot do it, I look up here and see, okay, it can be
change and it can happen, but by peace.
(Thank you so much.)
Okay, thanks.
43:11
[End of interview]