UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
CENTER FOR LOWELL HISTORY
ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
LOWELL NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS LOWELL
“FROM CREATION TO OPERATION: TWENTY-FIVE
YEARS AT LOWELL NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK”
INFORMANT: ROBERT GERVAIS
INTERVIEWER: MEHMED ALI
DATE: MAY 14, 2003
A = ALI
R = ROBERT
Tape 03.05
A: Okay. This is interview with Robert Gervais on May 14th, 2003. And Bob, first a little bit of
background information. Where and when were you born?
R: Lowell 1931.
A: Okay. And where did you go to school at?
R: I went to Lowell schools, and I also went to the schools in Fall River. (A: Okay) [Unclear]
and that’s pretty much Lowell High School.
A: Sure. Did you go (--) Did your family live down in Fall River for awhile?
R: For a short time, yes.
A: Okay. And what did your folks do for work?
R: My father at that time managed the [unclear] Woolworth’s Five and Ten. (A: Oh yah) Yah.
That’s why I went to school here.
A: And did your (--)
R: As a manager of the Five and Ten in those days we were transferred around. We did [a stint]
in Arlington also, because he was in Boston.
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A: Oh, oh okay. (R: Yah) And what neighborhood did you grow up in?
R: Pretty much Belvidere.
A: Okay. And which church?
R: Immaculate.
A: Okay. And what was your first employment?
R: Dishwasher at Hampton Beach [Frolic].
A: Oh yah.
R: Shoveling coal for John McGoohan Coal Yard.
A: Where was that? (R: In Lowell) By ah (--)
R: It was on Manchester Street.
A: Okay. Okay.
R: And then he ended up down on Gorham Street, 953 Gorham, which is now an appliance
store.
A: Right. Right. Right where Moore Street comes out?
R: Yes.
A: Yah, okay.
R: When you worked for John you ended up, you might be installing a TV in the afternoon, and
filling coal bags in the morning, delivering oil. You could do anything.
A: So behind there they had the railroad tracks, so they used to get the coal off the trains?
R: Yah, I used to take the coal off the train hoping that [unclear] pockets drop out.
A: That was a good job for the rest of your life. [Chuckles]
R: Oh yah. It was like .40 an hour.
2
A: Good thing you didn’t stick with it right? How would you describe the social and economic
condition of Lowell when you first became an adult, which would be maybe in the 50s right?
R: Yes, you were in tough times a lot of the 50s in Lowell. It’s a lot better now. Things have
made a big turn. And of course I was away. I was a couple of years in the service from 53 to 55,
about 53 yah, to 55. And then I traveled on the road for a company out of Chicago probably six
or seven years. We made automobile parts and we sold them to about six distributors. The
company was called [Baremont], and we made automobile mufflers. That was back in the late
50s and early 60s, when they were burning them out, [out of the wheels of rapid fire]. So I sold
them to people like Towers Motor Parts, (A: Oh okay) and wholesale automotive, (A: Okay) but
you did a lot of traveling.
A: Yah, and where was the manufacturing plant at?
R: They were in Chicago, and they had plants in Harvey and Cicero. We got warehouses in
Cambridge. And they had an apartment that I lived in for awhile in Scranton, Pennsylvania.
A: Oh no kidding.
R: But then I moved over to West Hartford and worked out of there.
A: How did you like traveling around the country?
R: They were paying for it. They were good to work for. So it was a great experience. You
met a lot of different people as far as business goes. You were dealing primarily with the key
person in the parts house business. You could have two thousand lines in a part store, and the
muffler line represented probably 10% or better of his [whole] volume. (A: Oh really) So that
you were an important person [to a man], he was important billing customer to us.
A: Yah, right. And what did you do when you were in the service? Did you go to Korea?
R: No I was in during the Korean War, and I hit Devens for a [shortened stay]. Went to Indiana,
Camp [Clears throat] excuse me, Camp [Asbury], and I also went to signal school in Kansas, and
ended up in Coronado Springs. (A: Oh okay) Mostly in radio repair, because I had that
background for McGoohan.
A: Oh yah. Yah.
R: I worked for Belvidere Radio when I left McGoohan, and fixing TV’s and installing
appliances and so forth. I was only a kid then (A: Sure. Sure) right out of high school.
A: And you were in the Army then?
R: I was in the Army, yah.
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A: Okay. You were talking about Tower’s Motors. Do you remember Bill Levine?
R: Bill was my neighbor.
A: Oh yah.
R: He didn’t, he didn’t (--) In fact he lived right next door to where I live right now. (A: And
Allen) Allen lived across the street.
A: Allen Levine, sure, he moved out a few years ago. He was down in, (R: He went to Texas,
didn’t he?) is he down in Albuquerque? I think he’s (--)
R: Mexico, yah, he has a girlfriend down there.
A: Yes. Yes.
R: His wife Pearl died. He kind of went down on a lurch. She was a lovely lady.
A: Was she?
R: Yah. Yah.
A: So what kind of a business guy was Bill?
R: Shrewd. Shrewd. Very sharp (A: Yah) and very cool. [Unclear] when we went in the car
business he [had gotten so that] it was tied into the Union National Bank. (A: Okay) If you
needed a loan you could go to Towers and get it from him. (A: Oh really) Oh yah, he’d call the
bank and say, “Give them the money.”
A: Okay. So you went through him to help out, get hooked up?
R: Ah, a couple of times yah, when we bought, ran a little place in Billerica. The first store we
had was Dodge [I think down there]. (A: Oh okay.) That was in 1961.
A: 1961?
R: Umhm.
A: And what were you selling down there?
R: Dodges. Dodge cars
A: What was your big seller back in those days?
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R: Probably the Coronet, and then the Dart. (A: The Darts) [Unclear].
A: There used to be all of those Dodge Darts around huh?
R: Oh jeeze, we used to buy them. That’s when they first started that off-lease auctions back to
the dealers. Chrysler did that before the other makers. And down Logan Airport, down to
[unclear] they’d sell 150 an hour at auction. We’d go down and we’d buy them, and we loaded
the Billerica store with them all the time and we’d sell like crazy. Of course we made a few
hundred bucks on [unclear].
A: Yah. I mean how much was a Dart selling for? $1400 or something?
R: We used to have Ramblers. You could buy a brand new Rambler for $1500, and one with
automatic and power steering up to $2000. That was in ’64, ’65.
A: Now how did you get interested in deciding to sell automobiles?
R: I sold automobiles before I went to work for the Chicago Company. (A: Okay) I sold the
Lowell Buick, which was owned by the Emersons at the time. (A: Okay) And then I went over
with Leo King. King [unclear] on Dan O’Day’s old place on Moody Street.
A: Oh really, behind the library.
R: Behind the library. And it was both sides of the street. In fact the Lowell Fire Department
has rebuilt on where this, right of Tilden and Moody and so forth. And in fact I worked for
O’Day before I worked for, for a short time, then he sold to Leo King. (A: Okay) And I
remember [Freddie], after I got back from the service, I went in the service and got back out and
I worked for Emerson, and went with Leo King. And he went under. That was ’57. That’s how
I ended up in Chicago area, Chicago Company.
A: Oh okay. What kind of a guy was Dan O’Day?
R: Nice guy, sharp guy.
A: He was a big political guy, wasn’t he?
R: Very political. I met Jack Kennedy over there.
A: Oh at that place?
R: He was running for Senator. I think when, was it Harry Truman that came to a railroad
station stop here? (A: Yah) [Unclear] Dan O’Day on the platform with him. In fact that was
his daughter, the Zahers’ girl that just got killed.
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A: Yes. And Jack Zahers just passed away. I went up to his wake. That would be her brotherin-law. And their father was the police chief.
R: Yah. Yes I saw that, but her husband is still living.
A: She’s been divorced. Yah, she’s been divorced for a number of years Bob.
R: Bobby Zahers. (A: Bobby) Yah, Bobby Zahers.
A: He hangs around the Athenian. I see him down there.
R: Is he really?
A: He likes to, he likes to drink a little bit, but (--)
R: He always did.
A: But he goes out with a nice teacher, schoolteacher.
R: Very nice, yah.
A: Very pretty girl. But anyways, yah, I’ve heard some stories. I heard Dan O’Day was close to
(--) Now he would be like Joe Kennedy’s generation almost, wouldn’t he have been? Not quite
as old as Joe, but (--) But he was older than Jack, and Bobby and them, right?
R: Oh yes. Oh yah, yah, he was closer to [unclear]. The tie I think there was through the
Gargans? Did you know Joe Gargan?
A: I’ve heard the name. Ann Gargan?
R: Ann Gargan. Okay, they used to live on Park View Avenue. (A: Okay) And they were Joe
Kennedy’s niece and nephew.
A: Okay.
R: Yah. Dan O’Day I think was a guardian.
A: When their father died?
R: Yes.
A: I see. I see.
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R: Because it was almost like his family. (A: I see) So that was a big contact.
A: I see.
R: But I learned a lot from him. (A: Yah) I learned the ins and outs of the car business kind of
quick. (A: Yah) Yah, he was very clever. He owned a lot of property too.
A: He did? Where, in that area, Moody Street area?
R: The Gilmore Trust was his. (A: Okay) The Gilmore Trust was his. And he owned some
property on Market Street. He also was a Packard Dealer on East Merrimack Street.
A: Where, where you owned, in that building?
R: If you look at the building, you can see there’s a Veterans Administration, and a brick section
in the middle, that was the Packard Garage. (A: Okay) The two garages on the right as you face
it, and way back it was a Dana Cadillac [unclear].
A: George Dana?
R: Yah, George Dana. And then during the wartime, Second World War, there was an
electronics plant like Hytron, or one of those.
A: Oh really?
R: And the Gas Company took it over. [Unclear] we bought the thing from the Gas Company.
A: From the Gas Company, okay. Well I never heard of Hytron. What did they do?
R: Did electronics. And they were producing for the war effort I guess.
A: Oh I see.
R: They later moved down to Middlesex Street, and went into maybe AVCO or one of those
[unclear].
A: I see. So what kind of cars did Dan O’Day sell at Moody Street?
R: He had Dodge and Plymouth, and during the early 40s he had Packard over at East
Merrimack Street. And that was the two brands that he [unclear].
A: Somebody told me on Moody Street the guy had a Tucker Dealership.
R: That was the Hockmeyer’s.
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A: Oh really? Like Clyde Hockmeyer?
R: Yes, yup.
A: [Unclear].
R: Hockmeyer Corduroy, they got Tucker Dealership, and [unclear] to look at the car [unclear],
and the cars never came, that’s all.
A: They never showed up?
R: Well they got their original car, and I don’t think there were more than a hundred Tuckers
ever made. (A: Yah. That was in the) So if you have one now it probably would be worth
some money.
A: If only you had bought one when you saw it.
R: [Unclear].
A: As an eight year old kid, or whatever.
R: You had a [five-year old] railroad station. You had [Kaiser/Fraser].
A: Oh really!
R: Yah, that was a guy named Gerry O’Connor, he had a showroom on Middlesex Street (A:
Okay) right where the depot was. Right next door. And right after World War II they had the
Kaiser car, the Fraser car.
A: Didn’t sell very well though?
R: It sold for a few years. I think it was Kaiser Aluminum, or Kaiser Metals.
A: Right, Henry J. Kaiser.
R: Yah, that’s who owned the deal.
A: Funny how it didn’t take off though, huh?
R: It did for a while, and GM and Ford, and all the others started to crank up their volume and
drowned him. Chrysler was going good then. You had, on Middlesex Street we had Hudson
also. That was swallowed by American Motors.
8
A: Where was it? Was that right near there?
R: Yah, it was [Kaiser/Fraser], there was Hudson and up the street a little further there was
Rambler, [unclear] and Waldemir Pontiac. We had Pease Cadillac Olds. Somewhere on
Middlesex Street [the others like Emerson] was over by the Auditorium, O’Dea was [unclear].
A: Anybody on Rogers Street back in those days?
R: The first one to go on Rogers Street I think, with automobiles was Al [Luneau] who was
down on, at the time he was on Appleton Street right behind the old post office where the
expanded telephone company building is. (A: Okay) That was the post office garage. (A:
Okay) If you go back in history enough you’ll find the post office garage was owned by the
Dancause Family.
A: Charlie Dancause?
R: Charlie owned Rex Chevrolet, which was down across on East Merrimack Street, where he
had the entertainment center.
A: Did he have a car dealership in there at the same time?
R: He had Chevrolet, and his brother had Chevrolet at the same time. (A: Okay) And they were
at different sides of the city. That was in the late 30’s. (A: Wow) And then Charlie ended up
selling the Chevrolet thing to his brother [unclear]. There were a couple of them in there. And
Charlie started the Rex Entertainment Center where he had a restaurant, bowling alleys, pool
hall, dance hall, wedding package. There was a radio station in there. (A: Right) WLLH was in
there, and there was a market. And that was all Charlie’s deal. The house I live in on Andover
Street next to the Levines, was Dancause’s house. (A: Okay) It was [Ambrose] Dancause. And
he had it built.
A: Then that place caught on fire I think, right?
R: That burnt when I was selling Buicks down the street. [Unclear] and there was a puff of
smoke about noontime, or just before, and that thing went up like a box of matches. (A: No
kidding) That was a big complex too.
A: Was it, it was old mill buildings, part of it wasn’t it?
R: All redone, yah, and with pool halls and bowling alleys, and restaurants, and it was quite a
facility.
A: Yah, they talk about that. Now Leo King that had the Moody Street dealership, was that, was
he connected to Dr. Leo King?
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R: He was the son. The son, his brother was doctor Dennis King, his brother. (A: Okay) And
Leo ended up after that working up at the University of Lowell.
A: Okay. He’s still around?
R: He’s still living, yes. He was living on Clark Road. I think he’s living in a condo on
Nesmith Street now.
A: In where, like Tom Saunders and (--)
R: Yes, in that same area.
A: Bill Taupier lives.
R: Right next to him.
A: Now what would you, how would you, what were the symbolic significance of the car
during, in Lowell during the 50s and 60s?
R: How do you mean by that?
A: Well it’s kind of an open-ended question, but is there you know, I guess what the question is
without trying to force it on your answers to say, “How did the car grow during that time,”
because we know it did essentially, right?
R: It was that every family probably their house was first, and the car was second. And I think it
was kind of a status symbol for a lot of people. What kind of car? People would trade them
every year, every three years. And it was, people liked doing [business]. Plus they didn’t want
to repair old ones since.
A: Yah. And what was the status of public transportation during that period?
R: You had, well you used to have Eastern Mass Bus Service. It was [Hamel]Transportation I
think, but it kind of lost out to [unclear].
A: Now how long have you been at this location?
R: We’ve been as a dealer we started at the end of 1994, December I think it was, first of ’95.
And we’ve own this property since ’92. We bought it. It was empty. It was a bank, former
Shawmut Bank. So we just sat on it to see what direction we were going to go in with the
automobiles. It was kind of an insurance policy to get off of Rogers Street.
A: And where were you on Rogers Street?
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R: Where the Lowell Buick Pontiac is at the present time, 733.
A: Okay. And did you sell that location, or you still have that?
R: We didn’t own that. That ah, we owned a piece of land next to it, [unclear] 20 foot length
going out to 38. And Glennie, his father had an ice cream stand, (A: Oh okay) Glennie’s Ice
Cream in Lowell.
A: Sure, I’ve heard of that.
R: We leased it from him, but they were taking, widening, taking the land and widening the
road. And when our option to buy it came up, we felt that the facility was obsolete for our need.
So we still have the Phoenix Avenue property we lease to them. (A: Okay) The [unclear].
A: Yah, I see. Wow. Now do you know the earlier history of the Industrial Park?
R: This one? (A: Yah.) NIP? (A: Yes, yah, yah) That was Homer Bourgeois’ crowd.
A: Okay. And what did, what did NIP do?
R: [Unclear]. That was the New England Foundation, or whatever they called it first.
A: Yah, New Industrial Plants I think it was called.
R: Yah. Reese Associates was one of the first down here, and they were next door to us, (A:
Okay) where we are now. And they, they Reese brothers were the original laminators, (A: Oh
okay) you know, laminated counter tops (A: Sure) and so forth. I think they, they were the first
end of that [gain].
A: No kidding.
R: And they got [to go in] business with a couple of others. There was AVCO that was on the
other side of the street. (A: Right, right) The lot that we bought over there was an AVCO lot.
A: Oh okay. The one where you’re storing cars over there?
R: Yah, we put a used car outlet over there now. (A: Okay) We put a trailer in temporarily.
We expanded the license from here to there. So we’re retailing off the site.
A: Great. Great. How’s that working out for you?
R: It started out very good, yah.
A: Yah, good.
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R: What we find though, if the weather if off at all that doesn’t get them over here.
A: No kidding.
R: Yah, because they can walk into a showroom, and if the weather is nice (A: They’ll go there)
they feel easy, they can come and go as they want [without the bothersome]. We also had 17
acres on the other side of the highway here (A: Oh yah) that we had to, we bought that from the
Floods, but it bordered right on their property. And I ended up buying whatever [unclear] little
spots, sites that were (--)
A: Through out the Industrial Parks?
R: Yah, they were all [unclear], because we needed the access to Industrial Avenue from the site
that we had. So we go down to Frank Lawlor at the Lowell Sun who’s father was treasurer at the
time that I bought it from him.
A: What years did you buy it?
R: Oh that goes back. It had to be in the 70s, (A: Okay) probably late 60s. We had the site for
about eight to ten years. We had [unclear], the site is in Chelmsford. (A: Okay) And so
Chelmsford was giving us kind of a tough time on everything we wanted to do. We ended up
putting a deal together with, it was a Wang deal put together by [Debroth and Fryer].
A: Okay.
R: Mel Fryer used to be on the Chamber and partners you know, with Dick Debroth. And he did
the Wannalancit Mills.
A: Oh okay. Yah.
R: And they had a deal to build two buildings for Dr. Wang. (A: Yah) So we sold them the
package, and we were off it, they built the buildings.
A: So these two commercial office buildings right over here?
R: Yes, those were Wang occupied at the time.
A: Oh I didn’t know that.
R: Then when it all fell apart they were marketed, and I think the [Rappaports] own them now.
(A: Oh) That’s, you remember Charles River Park, [unclear] in Boston. And I think he ran for
(--)
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A: Lieutenant Governor last year.
R: Yes. Yah. I think that’s their property.
A: Oh okay. Interesting. So what do you know about this, this, this crowd and the NIP back in
the days? [Must be looking at photo]
R: Well that’s a little before my time, but I’m aware of them. That’s Homer in the middle, and
that looks (--)
A: Here’s Bill Levine up there. [Reviewing a photograph]
R: Oh yah, right there. That looks like, is that John Pearson?
A: Yah, in the hat? (R: Yah) Yah. The only guy I don’t know is this guy here. Do you
recognize, any bells for you?
R: No. No.
A: Frank Barrett.
R: Okay, yah.
A: And this is Irving Paley.
R: Oh he’s changed.
A: He’s dead now.
R: Irving died, yah.
A: He died, yah.
R: [Unclear] his boy is still around?
A: Jack, yah.
R: Jack, and Irving came in here one day, because I [unclear]. He was all tanned up. (A: Oh
yah) He had a suit, suit on, and was nice, very well dressed. He had a new Lincoln and he come
in to say hello.
A: Yah.
13
R: This was probably in ’97 or so, because we were both at an auction down where [Taupier]
used to have his office when he wasn’t [unclear].
A: Umhm. Where was his office?
R: Right down on Industrial Avenue, across from the Gas Company’s (A: Okay) land over
there. And it was up for auction. I met Irving, so he came over. [Unclear] Chris Kelly and all
that, (A: Oh yah) and Jimmy Hall, (A: Yup) they’re all standing out there with their suits on.
And Jimmy Burns was working for me. I don’t know if you [heard of Jimmy].
A: No.
R: Jimmy would, they were all arguing over the property lines out here. So Jimmy brought
Irving out there and he said, “You pretend you’re Fred Reis, where Fred had died fifteen years,
but he looked like the [yachtsman ] that Fred was. (A: Yah, yah) Anyway now Burnsie
introduced him as Freddie Reis. (A: Uh huh) And Irving’s father and he built the buildings.
A: Right, Morris Palefsky.
R: Morris yah, Morris Construction. So he knew where everything was, and he really believed
him. So about an hour later Jimmy Hall come driving in the yard here and said, “Burnsie, get in
the car.” He took Burnsie and road around the rotary and wouldn’t let him out unless he told
him.
A: Who the guy was?
R: Who the guy was. Irving did a great job acting, because he knew Reis. (A: Okay) So he
knew how to play. They asked him where he had been the holiday. He spun it off as Florida and
all that [unclear].
A: And who ended up with the building?
R: We were arguing over easements and so forth, so we’re still in litigation.
A: Oh gee.
R: [Unclear]
A: So what do you know about what these guys accomplished?
R: Oh I think they did the right thing, because as a result of what they did ah, it lagged for a
while because we couldn’t get anybody to put any money up to go to Lowell. (A: Right) But if
you didn’t have water, and sewerage, and parking, they are people here, they’re employing
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people, and the Connector probably wouldn’t have even been in here. (A: Yah) So whatever
they did seemed to be in the right direction.
A: Any interesting stories you’ve heard about the Industrial Park back when they created it?
R: No, none that I know.
A: I have a little map here that I found. It kind of details some of the land and NIP, NIP owned
a few pieces here and there.
R: Yah. See we were right here. (A: Okay) And they owned about a 20-foot wide strip that I
had to buy from them. (A: Okay) And this was Tommy Farrell’s originally. All this whole
thing, and then the Gas Company went in there. So the two buildings were on here. This is
where, I’m trying to think of who it was, [Unclear] was right here. (A: Okay) Where’s Swan
Street?
A: Right here.
R: Yah, okay. It’s just a little spot. It was here that Paul Tsongas had the hotel up there
originally.
A: Oh he had (--)
R: Hampton’s Inn, Hampton Inn.
A: He owned the land out there?
R: No. It was right here at the apron. There was a Ryder Truck terminal there.
A: Where?
R: Right, right here.
A: So at the corner of the brook, and (--)
R: You know where the Courtyard Hotel is? (A: Yah) That was a Ryder Truck terminal, a
truck terminal from Ryder. And I think Tsongas was tied in on the group that would put these
[Hampton Inns] together. (A: Okay) And they ended up buying the building and tearing it
down, and putting the hotel there and the Courtyard took it over.
A: Okay. So Paul had some development deals as well as him being involved in politics?
R: I think he was involved in that. Yah. [Unclear]. And Irving was down here at the State
Container, Sonoco. And Jack Mitchell was over here, [right over this side].
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A: In parcel, what parcel is that? Twelve?
R: Yah, let us say, yah.
A: There’s a church over there and there’s some, just some fence.
R: The church is just a fill-in. Mitchell, Harland Manufacturing.
A: Harland. Was Brooks over there at one time too?
R: Brooks Machine is still there I think. (A: Yah) They sold some of the land off to the printer,
King Printing.
A: Okay. Okay.
R: Yah, but Harland, he was right across from Interstate Container. (A: Yah) He was making
tear-off tapes on cigarettes.
A: Oh okay.
R: You know the little cellophane? (A: Sure) The little red tape, gum wrappers. (A: Right)
That was his specialty. They had that pretty well locked up.
A: Really. So that was a decent business, huh?
R: I think his son is still running it. He died.
A: What about his property. Ever hear any stories about this one?
R: What’s that one?
A: The one owned by Mary Abdala?
R: Is that where the Veteran’s Center is?
A: I heard, I heard they couldn’t get access out to the Industrial Park.
R: Allen wouldn’t let them. What happened, the same thing got sold, Mitchell, the property, not
realizing that they were landlocked in the back. Then when they got to run the street through,
Jack was sometimes contagious, but he, he was afraid. He didn’t trust people. He used to keep
the doors all locked, and he and I were friends.
A: Oh really.
16
R: Yah. Well he had secret stuff that his father used to save such things.
A: This would be Arlin? (R: Yah) Interesting. So you bought some of the NIP property, and
what was up with NIP by the time you, you came along.
R: They were dissolving, (A: Okay) and they had little pieces, one behind Interstate Container,
a piece that I needed here. (A: Right) And I think that the deal that I got I took them all. They
wouldn’t sell me one. (A: Oh no) I had to pay their back taxes, (A: Ah huh) and then [unclear]
at that time. It wasn’t a real solid piece. They were all scattered stuff, (A: Sure) I think for
seven, eight, nine thousand dollars, which was a lot of money then, (A: Right) but I needed to do
it to put the deal together.
A: Sure. Sure.
R: So I bought the entire package and got this [one out], but nine grand, or eight or nine, went to
the city for the tax bill. I even dealt with Lawlor just before he died. (A: Okay) Lawlor and
Homer. And at the time I took the package out and I bought some piece behind Interstate
Container. So Irving was starting to build on it. I would never tell him, because I used to bring
[cargo] in and out when we had [Unclear] Shaw Box and Shaw Print. (A: Okay. Okay) So I
told him I was building on that land. (A: What happened?) Oh he called me a few names and
everything else. And he called his lawyer and he come back and they said, “I suppose you’re
going to [give me]. I said, “You could own the land.” I said, “I’ll tell you what, you pay what I
paid for it, and you can have it.” So he paid me the nine grand. So I got my piece, he got his. I
don’t know what he did with the rest of [unclear].
A: Oh so, so you just kept this piece number 14, (R: Yah) and you gave him the rest? (R: Yah)
So you made out?
R: Yah, I got my piece, and he was happy because he was going to get (--)
A: And you didn’t try to screw him you know, because he had (--)
R: Shut it off, I just got to [unclear].
A: Sure.
[Tape is turned off then on again]
A: Um, so by that time the NIP was on its way down. How come they didn’t develop these last
parcels that they had?
R: I think your economic times, and just didn’t get the people that wanted to come to work and
build. See Lowell had a tough tax rate system too. Whenever you tax industrial property, or
17
commercial property at twice the residential rate, you’re going to scare everybody away. Plus a
lot of the companies wanted to move out into the suburban market, and not get involved in a lot
of local politics I suppose. (A: Yah, yah) Now it’s just reversed. You go into some of the
suburban communities, it’s tough to go ahead to develop, or build, or anything. So they’ve
pushed them back to the city.
A: Really? Yah. So what kind of politics was around back in the, back in the days?
R: I tried not to get too involved in the political situations. Stayed away from it as much as I
could.
A: Yah. Now tell us about Homer Bourgeois. He was probably one of the leading (--)
R: Very interesting guy. A great community leader I would say. (A: Yah) He ran a good bank
[unclear] Jeanne D’Arc Credit Union as one of his off-springs.
A: Yah, right. Right.
R: But he was a sharp guy, very sharp.
A: What was his role in politics around the city?
R: I don’t think he was too involved. He kept his hands clean.
A: Oh did he?
R: That I know of. All those guys might be behind the scenes, but then they got to go out and
say, “I’m with you Ali,” and I’m with (--) Why are they going to do that? They’re loaning
money and getting accounts from the masses you can’t single out. It’s like being in the car
business. You can’t really go around with a bumper sticker for someone.
A: Right, because you don’t want to alienate your customers on the other side.
R: You got to be neutral.
A: Any interesting stories about Homer?
R: Not that I know of, no.
A: Okay. Now you served on the City Development Authority for a while. Tell us about that
experience.
R: The only reason I got involved in that, because I had, I had bought Shaw Printing down on
Chelmsford Street. And after the first year I was there the insurance company that I had was out
18
of Boston, and they up the anti on the thing. So it was almost prohibited to carry enough
insurance to satisfy Homer at the bank.
A: Oh really?
R: [Unclear] our money from him. And so I went the route. I think it was Phil Shay, city
councilor at the time, and I grabbed him and asked him what his position was at the
Hale/Howard Development, and who had it? (a: yah) That was the reason given that my
insurance went way up, is because I was on the other apron in the development of, it was all over
tenement houses at the time. And Chelmsford Street was a [Lowell] Street. I was a really run
down neighborhood, very bad. (A: Yah) A lot of the buildings were emptied out by the
Development Authority. (A: Okay) So they were boarded up, warning people not to break the
boards off [unclear]. (A: Sure) So they had fires over there every night. And that’s why they
couldn’t get the insurance out. If Shay said to Bill, why don’t we put you on the board, you
straighten it out?
A: Here’s some more work for you.
R: That’s when Charlie Gallagher was city manager at the time. Shay just said, you know, this
guy is going [unclear]. And so we went on and we switched it [unclear]. The plan was at that
time, that was going to be an extension for development that went on, on Arcand Drive and
Father Morrissette Boulevard I think they call it. Kind of like a cement city. (A: Okay)
[Unclear] that there was a fight with the contractor. The guy’s name was [Linnehan]
Development Corporation of America. They built that mess down, (A: Moody Street area) oh
yah. That was awful, and those buildings were [leaking], but he was going to put 385 more up
on Hale/Howard.
A: Really?
R: And that would have only continued. They were going to tear down a [unclear], put one in at
the potential of being one in five years. So I got a couple of the board members to go along with
me to try and convert it to industrial and commercial. And one of my good supporters here at the
time was Father Gagnon. (A: Okay) We’d go and he’d put his collar on, and we’d go to HUD.
We’d go everywhere, and we got it changed. And that’s why you have an Industrial Park and a
little commercial, rather than a bunch of housing that’s developing. And I think the offset was
we gave the Housing Authority a package up on Temple Street, and the packages up (A: Up in
the Highlands there, yah) on top of the hill. VanGreenby I think might have owned the site at the
time, but we worked out a deal to offset some of [these]. All you were doing was bringing
people in from out of the community to put them in low-income housing. I always felt that if
you have enough jobs, you don’t have to worry about low-income housing.
A: Right. Right.
19
R: If everybody is working and so forth, let’s put the job before they subsidize housing. And so
it’s a lot of resistance at the time.
A: Now who was supportive of the housing going at Hale/Howard?
R: That you would have had, there was an inner group that ah, like Jimmy Lorrey, who was the
Head of the Union for the Post Office, (A: Okay) he was supporting that. I think they [got
orders] to create jobs for the construction of the housing, rather than what it was really going to
do to you on the bottom line.
A: Um. And how about like Eddie Early and those guys? Were they supportive of Linnehan
and the DCA?
R: That was before Eddie Early was a councilor I think. (A: Right) I’m trying to think of who
was his (--) There was Warren Griffin on there when I was on, Dr. Kokinos.
A: Yah, was Warren Griffin connected to Eddie Early?
R: I’m trying to think of who the person was that [unclear] tied to [unclear]..
A: I don’t have the board members here. Kokinos.
R: He was a [Governor at some point].
A: Right. (R: Good guy) Republican right?
R: Good guy. Good guy. And [unclear] Peter Reilly was on it a while.
A: And who was Peter Reilly connected to?
R: He was my brother-in-law.
A: Oh okay!
R: And Harry Keon.
A: And Harry Keon was with Eddie Early?
R: That was Early’s guy. And Harry, very bright guy.
A: Yah, because I think they had kicked off Brendan Fleming earlier on when it was the
Redevelopment Authority.
20
R: Yah, this was you know, the City Development. I think it was more federal funded. So it
was more autonomous. (A: Yah, right) But we got that done. And I think I put about six years
in that [office], but I got what I wanted. And we tried to straighten out the development of
downtown.
A: Okay.
R: I think we put Montminy on his site.
A: Oh okay. At Arcand Drive?
R: Yah, then the high school ended up taking some of it, and the Post Office took some of it.
A: Yah, did you work with Frank Barrett when he was developing the area for the Post Office?
R: He was with Wamscott Properties, or something like that. (A: Yah) Not very much, no.
The city managers that I had worked with originally Charlie Gallagher, Jim Sullivan, and when
Taupier, Paul Sheehy [unclear] at the time (A: Yah) I had other things to deal with, iron out.
And they were bouncing it all around at that time. And in fact I brought Frank Keefe in. (A:
Okay) He was down in Newburyport, and I brought him in as a planner, because most of the
thinking was that all they wanted to do on that Authority was build subsidized property, housing.
We needed someone with a more opened mind.
A: Yah, and a business background, right?
R: Yah, and they didn’t want anybody to go more than three floors. I think there was a guy we
had, one of them was Bruce Hall.
A: Yah, whatever happened to him?
R: We replaced him with Keefe I think it was. And [unclear] he was opposed to anything other
than housing (A: Okay) pretty much and he wanted no more than two, three stories high. We
got a problem. There’s not that much land to have [unclear].
A: Right, right. You end up sprawling, right?
R: Yah, then instead I got Donald Wagner in there too.
A: I’ve heard that name before.
R: [Unclear], but Keefe was very good.
A: How about Jim Minnoch? Was he there when you came on?
21
R: Either before or after, yah. Jim Silk, that’s the guy that [unclear].
A: Okay, Jimmy Silk. Now was it easy to attract businesses to the city during that period?
R: No. Not until we got to do a selling job.
A: Do you remember any stories of how you brought certain companies to town?
R: Well you could, like Demers, we needed something [unclear], which is what’s down on
Chelmsford Street at the time.
A: Right. Right.
R: And they’ve got a nice building, good addition to the area. And we could give them
sidewalks, curb cuts, and so forth. We had the budget for that.
A: Sure.
R: And it was federal money, some state money. But that was the key to try and help them get
all the increments [they needed].
A: You’re already talked about Hale/Howard. How about the boulevard? (R: Pawtucket?)
Yah, Wang? Wang went in eventually.
R: We didn’t have anything to do with that. That was after my time.
A: Okay. And how about the Northern Canal area?
R: It wasn’t in that. Would have been just drawing it up then.
A: Okay. Other issues. How about the Connector Extension?
R: Got involved in that. We were trying to do an extension that would have gone down
Lawrence Street, and over into, across [unclear] right near where the Sheridon Hotel is now, or
the Doubleday.
A: Yah.
R: It was going to cross right through Dillon’s, which is now part of the university, the
Middlesex Community.
A: Middlesex? Yah.
22
R: Right around the back of the Post Office. There was a big Morton Warehouse on Kerouac
Park. That was going to go right down through there and (--) [Unclear] the Pastor, or the
Monsignor at Saint Peter’s, I’m trying to think of his name.
A: Monsignor Twiss?
R: Twiss, I guess he was the biggest in opposition. (A: Okay) Joe Sullivan, the printer.
A: Oh Joe Sullivan was in opposition?
R: Yes.
A: How come?
R: I don’t know. He and Twiss were pals I guess, you know. He thought it was going to affect
his building that he had, Sullivan Printing [unclear].
A: Oh that’s right he had, okay.
R: But at the time we lost, because I wanted it to go through.
Side A ends,
Side B begins.
R: …at the time that said if we got it in, it would have taken all that John Street Parking Garage,
all that [unclear], clean it out and build the towers, you know, big office buildings (A: Really)
[rest of comment unclear]
A: Who was that?
R: [Unclear].
A: Okay.
R: [Unclear]
A: Okay.
R: I went to a meeting with him at the time [unclear]. (A: Right) I think I was with Brian [rest
of comment unclear]
A: Okay.
R: And Brian got a contract, and he had it all mapped out [unclear].
23
A: So what were the issues involved in defeating the idea?
R: St. Peter’s Church was the key. And when they figured it was going to divide their parish,
which [unclear] we were, then I could understand exactly where they were coming from at the
time. And as time continued it ended up their parish was [eroded] anyway by changes in the
neighborhood. The church is no longer there. So [cannot comprehend-speaking too softly].
[Unclear…crystal ball] you probably would have gone ahead (A: Right) with the Connector.
A: Who were some of the community people in support of the Connector?
R: [They didn’t have other than the heavies.] Most of the people generally, except the
neighborhood that was going to be deposed.
A: Yah. Well they were in opposition, but how about in support of it I should say?
R: You had a general feeling. I didn’t have that much resistance.
A: Other than the opposition.
R: The church and the church parish, yah, that’s a lot of people [unclear] at the time. The
houses, a lot of Portuguese people [bought them]. The neighborhood has come back, but it was
pretty ripped out. The neighborhood at the time had a lot of empty buildings. And so it wasn’t
that great an opposition [I would say].
A: Was [Vinnie Morton] opposed because it would have taken his building?
R: Ah yes, he was opposed at the time, but I think he was opposed until he found out how much
he could probably get for it.
A: Oh okay.
R: That was taken down anyway for the Kerouac Park [unclear] took it down.
A: Right.
R: For some reason that had been done by I think Joe Tully was City Manager at the time. (A:
Okay) [Unclear] lot more money than they paid.
A: And, go ahead.
R: The Morton building was only good for warehousing, because the ceilings were all too low.
A: Oh, so you couldn’t reconvert it?
24
R: It had ten stories, but you probably only had nine feet of height [unclear].
A: I see. I see.
R: So if you wanted to make apartments you would have had to cut out every other floor, and
there was [unclear]. You couldn’t do anything with it.
A: I see. I see.
R: Just short of ducking when you walk on the floor.
A: Yah. And how about Homer Bourgeois? Would he be in support of the Connector?
R: I don’t think he ever opposed it. I don’t think [rest of comment unclear]. (A: Okay) He
might have [unclear] come down that works for Homer, but he would keep in nose out of all that
stuff.
A: So somebody like John Egan.
R: Yah, someone outside that maybe he loaned money to, who knows?
A: Okay.
R: He kept, he kept himself clean.
A: Who else were some of his allies around town?
R: Paul Gagnon was always [unclear]. Paul was running the Jeanne D’Arc Credit Union [full
time]. (A: Okay) That was one of his big boys. John Hurley [the accountant]. And we used
him. He was very good [to me]. His father was, his father was a very sharp guy. (A: Yah.
Yah) Yes, very sharp, and they were all part of that bank package.
A: Who else?
R: Homer? [There was] Levine, Walter Connor.
A: I don’t know him.
R: Walter had [unclear] and he ended up in the Real Estate business.
A: Oh did he?
25
R: Yah, nice fellow. [Unclear] Homer’s good friend lived just behind him (A: Okay) off of
Andover Street. Gagnon was always Homer’s [unclear statement], but the other guys were all on
his team [unclear].
A: Okay. And how about from the political side?
R: I don’t think that it’s, never kept, never tipped his hand that I knew of. He was a lot [unclear]
than I was. [Unclear]
A: I heard he was close to Sam Pollard back during that time period.
R: He could have. He was very cautious. I’m sure a good politician could go in and get an
attractive loan. [Unclear] to my knowledge, and I don’t think in the six years I was [unclear]
sent someone there looking for accounts, because we had a lot of money in the bank [unclear].
He’d want to make sure he got his share [unclear].
A: Did you guys keep your deposits at the Union Bank?
R: Pretty much, yah, because they were the only, it had to be in a federal bank. It couldn’t be in
a savings bank. (A: Right) [Comments unclear]
A: All right. A couple of personalities here, and you can just tell your opinion of them, a story
associated with them. Jack Tavaras?
R: I didn’t know Jack that well.
A: No.
R: I know his father was a prize-fighter.
A: Yes, I heard that before.
R: Come down from Tewksbury. Jack was involved in developing, either before or after
[unclear].
A: Okay. How about Jimmy Silk?
R: Jimmy Silk, he ran the, he was the head of the Development Authority. And he controlled it,
but I think Jim was controlled a little bit by politics.
A: Okay.
R: And as far as a gentleman, [unclear], that’s what he was. Probably too much a gentleman
sometimes.
26
A: Okay. And who were some of his political supporters?
R: I think he was on that Early gang.
A: Okay.
R: Yah, [unclear] Eddie Early was always [unclear].
A: Yah, yah, he did a lot. You already talked a little bit about Frank Keefe. How about Tom
Markham?
R: Tom Markham? [Comment unclear]
A: Any stories about him? What was your opinion of him?
R: It was a political job, but (A: Yah) yah.
A: Well that was his whole life I think, right?
R: Yah, political job, but his big tie was Dick [Donahue].
A: Okay.
R: That’s where that whole [unclear] was with Jack Kennedy. Markham was, needed a job.
A: What did he do before?
R: I knew way back he was the dispatcher for the Eastern Mass Bus Company. Of course
[unclear] used to stand at Kearney Square in Lowell [unclear] 11:00 and all the buses are there.
A: Oh really?
R: Yah. [Unclear] and a friend of mine, Frank Lawlor’s kid, [unclear] young Frankie Lawlor,
he brought his own whistle down, and about two minutes of eleven he blows it, and all the buses
left and Markham was out there you know, “Stop! Stop! Stop!” [Both laugh]
A: Yah, I’ve seen him recently and he talked to me, he wants to put out, the rotary, he wants to
put out a monument called “Founder’s Circle” for all of these guys.
R: Who is that?
A: Lawlor. What’s his name? Is it John?
27
R: John. It must be John.
A: The guy that used to work at the SUN.
R: Yah, his father was a big shot there.
A: His father was like the editor, or something.
R: His father was the general manager. He ran it with an iron fist.
A: Oh did he?
R: Very, very bright guy. I think he worked for Mrs. Costello (A: Okay) before the boys came
into the business.
A: Oh okay.
R: When her husband died, or something, she lived out on Andover Street, [unclear] and it
burned down or something [unclear]. But Lawlor ran everything.
A: Really.
R: They couldn’t do anything without, even the boys didn’t do anything, Clemie, and John, they
answered to him.
A: No kidding.
R: He put the other guys out, but he used to tie up all the wire services.
A: Say it again.
R: In those days you used to have like AP and various wire services (A: Right) to get your
news. (A: Right) He had to buy the wire services for the area. (A: Oh okay.) And so let’s say
you had a news station, it would have to be a local, because you couldn’t get on AP or any major
wire services. He’d even go buy a newspaper to tie it in, (A: Really) like the [Haverhill
Gazette].
A: He had bought that?
R: Yah. He kept them on their feet. (A: Wow) Yah, great big guy. I understand. I went to the
[unclear] (A: No kidding) Yah, there were some newspapers that came in from New Bedford.
A: Oh, he wasn’t a Lowell boy originally?
28
R: No. He married a Lowell lady and his mother was a McDermott from over Lawrence Street,
around way up Lawrence Street. And you know, he’s a tough guy.
A: They used to call him “Big Daddy Lawlor.”
R: “Big Daddy”, yes, yes. [Unclear] don’t get in his way.
A: Now you said he was associated with NIP.
R: He was the treasurer.
A: Okay. So how did he get involved in that group? Do you know?
R: I think because they wanted him. He was just a knowledgeable guy, and he had the
newspaper. (A: Okay) You know, he’d write columns on anything that (--) He just ran, he ran
the business end of that place, and did all the dealing. You didn’t deal without him. (A: Really)
Everything, even if you passed over a [unclear].
A: Oh really. Yah.
R: Yah. Anything that the [mother] had an interest in, or her money was involved in, he had
something to do with it. So when she died I think she left him kind of as custodian of the
package until the boys came along. And he probably would have been there a lot longer, but he
died.
A: Did he die young?
R: Yah. Yah, he got in an accident on Gorham Street, or something like that.
A: Oh I think somebody told me a story about that.
R: He fell down the stairs.
A: He was visiting somebody there, right?
R: I have no idea, but he never was a [SUN] man.
A: Somebody told me a story about one of those car dealerships that the Costellos were involved
in. It was some, some hanky panky with City Hall, or something like that. Did you ever hear
any story about that?
R: No, they, they financed [Jimmy Coffey] when they went in. Jimmy Coffey was a
Lincoln/Mercury dealer at the time. (A: Yah) And it was sort of the Costello money. And they
built him the building up on Gorham Street. And when the Cadillac dealer died [unclear], John
29
Costello went and moved in and put a deal together buying Cadillac. He threw out
Lincoln/Mercury. And Lincoln/Mercury, like Henry Bissonette, was a Chrysler Dealer.
Meanwhile Chrysler and Dick Bonneville became Chrysler at the time. So it was a big round
robin.
A: Now did the Costellos back up other business people around town?
R: Not that I know of.
A: You didn’t hear them as being involved with builders, Leander Marion?
R: I knew Marion, [unclear].
A: Backed him up?
R: [Unclear].
A: Um, other personalities. Vinnie Pytlinski?
R: I hired him. (A: Yah) He was working for the city at the time. He was on, trying to get tax
money (--)
A: Oh, back taxes from people?
R: Yah. Very bright guy too, [unclear]. [Unclear] and was doing a pretty good job, but he got
too friendly with the people that worked there. [Unclear]. (A: Yah) As far as capability, he
was very capable.
A: Did he get in any trouble over here?
R: I think he had a couple of spats with the Lowell Sun. Then he got in a little trouble down in
Florida I think there was a lot happening.
A: Right, I heard that. I heard that.
R: He and Brian Delaney were [unclear] about a year ago.
A: Oh yah!
R: Yah Brian was a councilor at the time. (A: Okay) Yah. But Vinnie is selling real estate in
Florida (A: Okay) down on Palm Beach.
A: And Brian Delaney, where is he now?
30
R: I don’t know whether he’s moved too far or not. I don’t know.
A: Okay. Um, how about Paul Tsongas?
R: I never really had too much dealing with him.
A: What did you think of him though?
R: He took my sister Janet out when they were kids a couple of times. He was political like
everybody else I suppose.
A: Okay, any interesting stories about him?
R: No, none that I have.
A: Now when he came, became active in politics back in the early 70s, was he associated with
other political groups around the city, or was he (--)
R: Then I never forget. I knew his father had a laundry over on Gorham Street. They lived up
on, by the South Common, Adams Street. He always represented himself as pretty straightforward.
A: Okay.
R: How many more you got?
A: Yah okay. Yah I wanted to talk to you about um, why did the CDA move from urban
renewal to historic preservation?
R: That was after me.
A: It was? (R: Yah) I thought they had done some studies in the early 70s on that, and then
leading towards the National Park.
R: Well we had, we did have a study going on for the National Park package, drawings and so
forth. (A: Right) That was because we (--) Pat Mogan got involved in it too. (A: Okay) But I
think Frank Keefe came across federal money. Frank was pretty good at that. (A: Yah) He
came across some federal [unclear]. One thing that Keefe did [unclear], he’d come in and give
his presentation as to what he wanted to do. When he got through with it, he says I got the
money, I’ll just set it right here. So it was fed dough, and how do you turn down something
that’s going to improve your city, even if it’s an idea on paper. We’re not paying for it. And he
scouted out anything that was from the [city]. And he would come up with the dollars.
31
A: No kidding. (R: Yah) So what do you think the National Park coming to Lowell meant for
the city?
R: A big deal. Very positive. (A: Yah) Very positive.
A: Okay. Any final thoughts about your time living and working here in Lowell?
R: I enjoy it.
A: All right. Thanks very much.
Interview ends.
32