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TheBreach104:Trump’sNewDrugCzarWillMakeThingsWorse
WelcometoTheBreach,yourdeepdiveintoauthoritarianismandcorruptionintheera
ofTrump.I'myourhost,LindsayBeyerstein.MyguesttodayisSanhoTree,Directorof
theDrugPolicyProjectattheInstituteforPolicyStudies,wherehehasspentnearly20
yearsdevisingalternativestothewarondrugs.Amilitaryanddiplomatichistorianby
training,hestudiestheimpactofthedrugwaronMexicoandaroundtheworld.Two
weeksago,theadministrationleakedthatPennsylvaniaCongressmanTomMarinowas
inthefinalstagesofvettingtobecomethenation'sdrugczar,theheadoftheOfficeof
NationalDrugControlPolicy.
DonaldTrumppromisedaharshandpunitivedrugpolicyagendabasedonpolice,
prisons,andthemilitary,andhispickofMarinoiscertainlyinkeepingwiththat.Even
Trump'sborderwallwithMexicowasbilledasahermeticsealagainstnarcotics.Trump
inheritedanopioidoverdosecrisisspiralingoutofcontrol.Thegovernmenthadalready
crackeddownonpillmills,andprescriptionsfordrugslikeOxycontinhadbeenfalling
since2012,butshutteringthepillmillsdroveahugecohortofopioidaddictstoheroin,
andnowtheheroinsupplyhasbeenpoisonedwithextremelypowerfulsyntheticdrugs
likeFentanylthatcankillinminutedoses.Inthelastcoupleofyears,morguesfrom
ClevelandtoVancouverhavebeenfilledtocapacitybywavesoftaintedheroin.Sanho,
welcometotheprogram.
Greattobehere.
There'saveritablealphabetsoupofagenciesthatoverseeUSillicitdrugpolicy.Canyou
giveusanoverviewofhowtheyallfittogether?
Well,theydon'treallyfittogether.That'stheproblem.Theideabackinthe80swhen
theycreatedthedrugczar'sofficewasthattherewouldbeoneringtorulethemall,so
tospeak,allright?Onecoordinatorthatwouldcrackheadstogether,coordinatepolicy,
andhavebudgetreviewauthorityandstufflikethat.Exceptinsteadofmakingitan
impartialoutsideindependentagency,theyputitintheWhiteHouse.It'scalledthe
WhiteHouseOfficeofNationalDrugControlPolicy.That'sthedrugczar'sformaltitle.
Insteadoftakingitoutofthepoliticalcontext,theypoliticizedtheofficebeyondall
measure.It'sareflectionoftheadministrationinchargeratherthandata-drivenor
evidence-drivenpolicy.Politiciansliketousethedrugczarforposturingratherthan
actuallysolvingproblemsveryoften.
DoesthedrugczargiveorderstotheDEA?
Theywon'tsayexactlyhowtheycoordinateallthesethings.Theydohavebudgetary
reviewauthority,andtheyfightfuriouslytoprotectthatright,buttheydon'treallyuse
it,whichisreallymaddening.Theycajole,theypersuadetocoordinatevariousbudgets
andstuff,buteveryonehasgottheirownpieceofthepie.Eachagencywillfighttothe
death,andtheyhavethecongressionaldefendersandcommitteesandsubcommittees
thatwillbackthemuponthisfortheirbudgets.Basically,onceyoucreatea
bureaucracyorasub-agencyorwhatever,it'sverydifficulttotakethemoneyaway
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fromthemandreprogramitforsomethingelse.Youcanaddmoneytootheragencies,
butit'shardtotakeaway.
Whatdoweknowaboutthedrugczarapparent,RepresentativeTomMarino?
Veryproblematic.Kindofarealmixedrecord,assomanyoftheappointeesunderthis
administration.Imean,I'mnotjustsayingthatbecauseit'sapartisanthing.I'mjust
sayingbecauseobjectively,therearealotofquestionableactivitiesinhispastinterms
ofpeoplehe'shelpedandindustriesthathe'sfavoredandmadeithardertogettraction
intheopioidcrisisinsomeways.GoneafterpeasantfarmersinColombiaandplaceslike
that,whichwillhavezeroeffectonthe...It'sthemostuselesspartoftheequationto
fight.WhenhewaselectedDistrictAttorneyinPennsylvania20yearsago,triedtoget
anexpungementforafriendofhisforcocainedealing.Thisguy'sbeenalloverthemap.
Yeah.Averyproblematictrackrecord.I'msurethiswillallcomeoutduringhis
confirmationhearings.
Iwaskindofinterested--peoplearesayingthathewashelpingthedrugcompanies
becauseheco-authoredthatpieceoflegislationthatmakesitharderfortheDEAto
shutdownpharmacies,butisthatreallyabadthing?Itseemslikethere'salotof
punitiveactionsagainstdrugcompaniesthathurtlegitimatepayingpatients.
Yes,absolutely.There'stwothings.Wehavetoseparatethepoliciesfromtheconduct.
Thepolicyofshuttingdownalotoftheseprescribersisveryproblematic,whenyou
alreadyhaveahugepopulationthatisdependentontheseopioids,becauseifyoutryto
cutoffthespigotnow,thatwillforcepeopleintotheillicitblackmarket,wheretheywill
buyheroin,whichismuchcheaper,andyoudon'tneedaprescription,andthatsortof
thingversusdoingthebiddingofindustry,whichreallyisn'tdoingitfromaprotectionof
protectingpatientsorpublichealthorharmreduction,butrathermaximizingprofits.I
thinkhe'sbeenaservanttoindustryratherthanhavingthebottomlinebepublic
health.Frommypointofview,asaharmreductionproponent,weneedtobevery
carefulabouttheseknee-jerkreactionsfromDEAandotherplacesthatthinkthatthe
solutiontoeveryproblemistogetabiggerstick.
TheTrumpadministrationisnowpromisingusbothadrugczarandanopioidczarinthe
formofChrisChristie.Howisthatsupposedtowork?
Well,there'sChrisChristieandthere'sJaredKushner,whichTrumphasalsotaskedhim
withsolvingthisproblem,aswell.Who'sgottheauthority?
AndKellyanneConwaydecreedherselfqueenoftheopioidcrisis,too.
Yeah,exactly.What'sthepointofhavingadrugczarwhenyou'vegotafamilymember
who'sgoingtohavemuchmoreclout...Twofamilymembersaregoingtohavemore
cloutinreachingthePresident,andyou'vegotadrugczarontopofthat.Whoisreally
incharge?It'salwaysbeenproblematicbeforeintermsofwhoreallymakesdecisions
ontheseissues,butnowit'sreallymuddiedthewaterwiththismanypeopleinvolved.
ChrisChristie,though,tohiscredit,he'sbeenterribleonsomanyaspectsofdruglaw
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enforcementandtherealdrugwarrior,especiallywantingtoreignitethewaronpot.He
saidifheeverbecameAttorneyGeneral,thatwouldbethelawofthelandagain.He
wouldrestartthatwaronpotandexertfederalsupremacy.Butontheopioidissue,he
haslistenedtoharmreductionistsinNewJersey,atleast.Again,wehavesomanychefs
tryingtocookthissoup,andit'sgoingtoturnouttobearealmessiftheydon't
coordinate.
WhatwastheObamaadministration'soverallapproachtodrugpolicy?
Onsomeareas,Ithinkintermsofharmreduction,overdoseprevention,drug
treatment,they'vebeenvery,verygood.Ithinktheydeservealotofcreditforthat.On
otheraspects,particularlyinternationally,Ithinkthere'salotmorecriticismthatcould
beleveledagainstthem.
Alsointermsofmarijuanadomestically,they'vehadapositionofbasicallybenign
neglect,thatistosaytheywouldletstateslegalizemarijuanaprovidedtheymetcertain
conditions,thattherearestrongstateregulatorymechanisms,thattheyarenotselling
totraffickersorminors,thatsortofthing,orcrossingstatelines.Ifthosethingsarein
place,thentheObamaadministrationquiterightlysaid,look,wehaveotherpriorities.
Thereareazillionlawsonthebooks,andyes,wecantheoreticallyenforceallofthem,
butthat'simpossibletodo.We'drathergoafterviolentcriminalsandthingsofhigher
importancethangoingafterlegal,regulated,taxedmarijuanadispensaries.
That'slikelytobeverydifferentunderAttorneyGeneralJeffSessions,right?
Yeah.Sessionsisarealoldschoolculturewarriorandahardlinerightwinger,going
backdecades.Hisworldviewisreallyfixedinatimebackinthe1980sinsomanyways,
notjustondrugs,butalsoonraceandotherissues.He'sarealthrowback,butonthe
otherhand,you'vegototherpeopleintheadministrationthatarethinkingpolitically
andrealizingthatmarijuana,eachtimeitcomestothepublicinelections,doesbetter
than...In2012,itoutperformedObamaandMittRomneyinCaliforniaandinColorado
andinWashingtonstate.Samewiththelastelection.Itbeatsourpresidential
candidatesofbothparties.Woeuntothepoliticianthatthinkstheycanoverturnthis.
Tome,itremindsmealotofsamesexmarriageintheSupremeCourt,right?The
SupremeCourtwasloathtooverturnit,inpartbecauseofadoctrineoraprincipal
somewhatobscure.It'scalledtheNormativePoweroftheActual.Thatistosaythat
whenpeoplehavegottencertainrightsandthey'veexercisedthemandconsidered
themanorm,they'veenteredintolifelongcommitments,intobusinesscontracts,
boughtrealestatetogether,allkindsoflegalentanglements,woeuntothepoliticianor
SupremeCourtJusticewhothinkstheycanoverturnallofthat,becauseit's,atthis
point,extremelydifficult,bothintermsofsamesexmarriageandmarijuanabusinesses.
TheTrumpadministrationkeepsassertingthatit'sgoingtotackletheopioidcrisis.What
leversareactuallyatitsdisposaltohelpstopthisproblem?
Well,firstyouhavetohaveavisionofunderstandingwhythecrisiscameabout,and
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thenhavingaclearcoherentsetofactionstoconfronttheproblem.That,Ithink,is
completelymissingatthispoint.Itstartsatthetop.WhenyouhavethePresidentsaying
thatwe'regoingtobuildawall,andthat'sgoingtosolveheroinproblemsintheUnited
States,that'sjustfantasyfromthebeginning,numberone.Thenyoucantalkaboutthe
lawenforcementanddomesticimplicationsofthatlater,butlet'sjuststicktothewall
foramoment,thathe'sreallydoubleddown,tripleddown,onthiswallidea.
Ifthewallactuallyworked...WhichIdon'tthinkitwill,andIthinkit'sgoingtobe
counter-productiveinsomanyways,butifitworkedatstoppingasignificantamountof
heroin,what'sgoingtohappen?It'sutterly,utterlypredictablethatwhat'scausingthe
vastamountofoverdosedeathsrightnowisn'ttheheroinbyitself,anditisn't
prescriptionopioidsbythemselves,thoughtheycanbedeadly.Theyarejustasdeadly
astheywere10,20yearsago.Nothinghaschangedaboutthoseparticulardrugs.
What'skillingpeopletodayistheadulterationofstreetheroinwithFentanylandits
evenmany,manytimesmorepotentacousin,Carfentanil.Eitherofthesesubstitute
opioidsaresotoxicthattheycankillyouwithjust...Justfourgranulesofsaltworthof
Fentanylcankillyou.JustatinyamountofdustofCarfentanil,whichisusedaselephant
tranquilizer,willkillyoudead.
Traffickersanddealersareobtainingthesesyntheticopioidsoverseas,veryoften
throughmailorder,becausethey'resopotent,theycanbemailedintinylittlepackages,
smuggledintoallkindsoflegitimatecommerce,anditgetsthroughourbordersright
away.They'remixingthatintotheherointostretchtheirprofits,tomakeitgofarther,
whichiswhattheywanttodo.Theyareinitforthemoney.They'remaximizingprofits.
Ifthiswallactuallyworked,they'regoingtoputalotmoreFentanyltostretchwhatever
herointheyhavelefttostretchtheirprofits.Thatisgoingtocauseahugeuptickin
overdosedeaths,inmyopinion.It'sbackwardsfromthestart.
It'snotthatthere'ssomuchdemandfromaddictsthatFentanylissuchahedonic
wonderfuldrugfromtheirperspective,isit?Orit'smostlythemanufacturers?
No,no.It'saterribledrug,actually.Ifanything,ittendstoputyourightoutratherthan
lettingthemenjoytheir"high".IwasprescribedFentanyllastyear.Ihadacoupleof
surgeries.Ididn'tevenknowuntilafterwardsthey'dgivenmeFentanyl,butitworked.It
didknockmerightout.Ihavenomemoryofthesurgery.
Whenyoumixitin,andtheseblackmarketdealers,ithastobedonevery,very
precisely.Otherwise,yougetbatchesofherointhathaveverywidelyvaryingpotencies,
andthat'swhat'skillingpeople.Nobodyusesheroin...Theydon'tbuyheroinonthe
streetwiththeintentionofoverdosing.Noonewantstodothat,butbecauseit's
unregulatedandit'sadulteratedintheblackmarket,youdon'tknowifyou'regetting
traditional7%pureheroinor70%pure,orsomethingthat'sbeenadulteratedwith
Fentanyl,whichis50timesmorepowerfulthanheroin.
IsittruethatFentanylandCarfentanilarenowsopotentorinsuchlargesupplythatit's
interferingwiththeabilityofstandardissuenaloxonetoreverseanoverdose?
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Yes,exactly.Fentanylcansometimesrequireseveraldosesofnaloxonetorevive
someone,whereasheroinisjustonedose,andyou'llsurvive.WithCarfentanil,whichis
about100timesmorepowerfulthanFentanylitself...Imeanit'saninsanelypowerful
drug...thatisshowingupnowinourdomesticheroinsupply,andthathastaken,in
somecases,severaldosesofnaloxonetorevivesomeoneinanoverdose.Infact,ifyou
talktoveterinarians,thepeoplewhoactuallygooutintothebushtotranquilize
elephantsandthatsortofthing,orbuffalo,thesafetyprotocolsforusingCarfentanil,as
aveterinarian,aresostrict.Youhavetohavemultiplevialsofantidotehandy.Youhave
tocontactemergencyservicesinyourlocalareaincasethere'sanaccidentoryouingest
justatinyamountofit.It'sinsanelypowerful.
Someofyourolderlistenersmayrememberbackin2002inMoscow,therewasthat
ChechenterroristlaidsiegetoatheaterinMoscow,right?Theyhadtakenacoupleof
hundredsofhostages.Russianspecialforceswentinthere,andtheyusedagas.Itwas
anaerosolizedformofCarfentanil,andthatgaswassupposedtoknockeveryoneoutin
thetheater.Itendedupkillingoverahundredofthehostages.That'showpowerfulthat
stuffis.Yougetasenseofhowdifficultitistodosethisstuffcorrectly.
What'sthesolution,nowthatthistechnologicalgenieisoutofthebottle?We'vegot
thisincrediblypotent,easilysmugglable,verylethalsubstancerunningaroundinthe
blackmarket.Howdowepullbackfromthat?
Yeah.Theknee-jerkresponsefromtheDEAandtheseotherlawenforcementtypesis
thatweneedtoclampdownonsupplyandoverprescribingandthatsortofthing.Well,
theyshouldhavedonethattwodecadesagowhenthisproblemwasfirstbeginning.It's
importanttotracethisbacktotheorigins,becausethatgivesussomeclueofhowto
solvethisorhowtobegintoaddressit.Thatistosay,backin1996,whenOxycontin
firstcameonthemarket,themanufacturer,PurduePharma,engagedinwhatIconsider
veryscandalousbehavior.
TheLosAngelesTimeslastyeardidawonderfulmulti-partseriesonthishistoryof
PurduePharmaandhowtheymarketedOxycontintodoctors,saying,"Thisnewtimereleaseformulationissomuchsafer.Youdon'thavetoworryaboutaddiction.Youcan
prescribeitforallkindsofminorthings,long-termpain,andsoonandsoforth."Also,
internally,theyknewthatthistime-releaseformula,whichtheyclaimeditlasts12
hours,wouldnotlastthefull12hours.Peoplewhowereprescribedthisstuffbegan
takingmoreofitmuchsoonerthanwhatwasprescribed.Theyknewthattheywould
buildupthisterriblecycleofdependency.I'veknownlotsofpeoplewhowrestledwith
dependencyonOxycontin.
Atthatpoint,itwasthesamepointwherein1997,theUnitedStatesfirstbegandirect
consumeradvertisingofprescriptiondrugsontelevision.ItbeganwithBobDoleandhis
famousViagraad,right?Beforethat,thepharmaceuticalcompaniesthought,oh,ifyou
listedallthesideeffects,noonewouldbuyanyofthesedrugs.Well,theViagraturned
outtobeablockbuster,andoverthedecades,wehavelearnedtotuneoutthesecond
two-thirdsofthead,whentheylistallthecomplicationsandsideeffectsofthesedrugs.
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Theycallthatthefairbalance.Iusedtoworkinpharmaadvertising.
Uhhuh.We'velearnedtotuneitout.
Itwasapaintoproofreadallthoselines.
Exactly.I'mnotsayingtheyadvertiseopioidsovertheair.No,butwhatithasdone,
however,iscreatedanentiregenerationofkidswhohavebeenbroughtupinwhatIcall
pillculture.Thatthereisapillforeveryproblem.Talktoyourdoctor.Ifit'sprescribed
byadoctoronaprescriptionpad,itcomesinablisterpack,wasmanufacturedina
factorybypeopleinlabcoats,itmustsomehowbesafe.Otherwise,thegovernment
wouldn'tallowthesethingstohappen,wouldthey?Well,infact,alotoftheseopioids
andotherdrugsareextremelypowerful,andifyoumixthemwithalcoholorother
drugs,theycankillyoujustasquickasstreetdrugs.We'vehadthisculturenowof
normalizingpillsforeveryoccasionorconvenienceratherthanchanginglifestylesor
dietoranythingelse.
It'snotgoingtoputthegeniebackinthebottle,likeyou'resaying.Cuttingoff
prescribingnow,prescribingshavebeendroppingsince2012,andcuttingitbackfurther
isprobablynotgoingtoaddressthoseunderlyingattitudes.
Exactly.CanadahashadahorribletimewithFentanyl.SomanyoverdosesinVancouver
andBritishColumbia,especially.Theyaremovingforwardwithprescriptionheroin,so
that...It'sonlyforthemostseverecasesofpeoplewhohavefailedatallother
treatmentmodalities.Methadonedidn'tworkandSuboxoneandsomeoftheseother
thingsdidn'twork.Abstinencedidn'twork,andyou'restilladdictedandintentonusing
heroin,thenthegovernmentcanstepinandsaylook,we'dratheryoustop,butif
you'reabsolutelyincapableofstopping,wedon'twantyoutogobacktothestreetinto
theblackmarkettobuythisadulteratedstuffthatcouldjustaseasilykillyou.Instead,
we'regoingtoprovideyouwithapharmaceuticallypureknowndose,aconsistentdose,
soyoudon'thavetoworryaboutgoingintowithdrawal.
Itwon'tbeenoughforyoutochasethedragontogethigherandhigher,butitwillkeep
youfromgoingintowithdrawal,whichiswhatmostpeopleareafraidof.Atthatpoint,
youcanmaintainsomeoneinarelativelyhealthylifefordecades.Someoftheearliest
peoplewhowereaddictedtoheroinweredoctors,becausetheyhadaccesstoitforso
manydecades.Weknowthatthelong-termuseisnotthatphysiologicallydamaging,
otherthanconstipation.Psychologically,itcanbedamagingandotherways,etc.,butif
it'spure,it'snotasdangerousaswhatyou'dbuyonthestreet.
Doyouthinkthatthere'sanyfutureforselectiveenforcement,essentiallysayingto
large-scaledrugdealersorlettingitbeknownthatifyourshipmentisallheroin,we're
goingtogoafteryoulessthanifyourshipmentcontainsanytracesofFentanylor
Carfentanil?
Yeah.Allenforcementisselective,inmyopinion,right?Wehaveakazillionlawsonthe
books,andintheory,thefederalgovernmentcanenforceallthosefederallawsifthey
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choseto.Nooneintheworldhasthosekindofresources,norwouldthepublicputup
witheverylittlejaywalkingenforcementorwhatever.That'swhattheObama
administrationrecognized.Wedothesamewithdeportations,bytheway,withDACA
andotherthings.Theysay,look.We'vegototherprioritieshere,ofpeoplewhohave
committedviolentcrimesorotherthings.Thisisthelowestpriority.
Youcanextendthattothemacroleveltosomeofthesemoreproblematicsubstances
aswell,becauseyouhavelimitedresourcesasagovernment.Youhavetodecidewho
you'regoingtogoafter.Ifitwereuptome,Iwouldgoafterthemostproblematic
violators,notsimplygoingafterthelittlefishortryingtoroundupasmany
prosecutionsasyoucantobuildarecordforwhichyoucanrunforhigherofficelater.
Thosekindsofarrestsandprosecutions,they'regoodforpolicedepartments.They're
goodforprosecutorsintermsofbuildinguptheirtoughreputations,butinfact,those
enforcementpatternscanoftenmaketheproblemworse.
Whataboutmedication-assistedtreatment?Shortofprescriptionheroin,butthingslike
methadoneandbuprenorphine?IsthereaplaceforthatintheTrumpadministration's
drugpolicy?
We'llsee.We'llseewhatinfluenceChrisChristieorothershave.Ifit'ssomeonelikeTom
Marino,thedrugczarnominee,orJeffSessions,boy,that'sgoingtobeatoughsell,I
think.They'resoretrogradeintheirviewsontheseissues.
It'sironic,becausefederalhealthauthoritiesrecognizemethadoneasthegoldstandard
treatmentforpeoplewithheroinaddiction,becauseitdropsthedeathratesomuch.
Yeah.
Otherfederalagenciesaresaying,"No,wecan'thaveit."
Yeah.Especiallyforsomanydecades,we'vebeenadvocatingallkindsofthings,interms
ofneedleexchange,intermsofvariousharmreductionmeasures.TheDEAhas
historicallyfoughtuseachstepoftheway.UndertheObamaadministration,thedrug
czar,whilehewouldn'tpubliclyusethetermharmreduction,allowedalotofthe
principlesofharmreductiontotakeeffect.Itwouldbeareallystupidreversalifthe
Trumpadministrationtriedtorollthatback.That'sthedirectionCanadaandEuropean
nationsandmanyothercountriesareheaded,andit'samuchmoreenlightened
responsetothisproblemthanprohibitionandmorelawenforcement.
IgrewupinCanada,andoneofthemostannoyingthingswaswheneverwe'dhavea
stepforwardondrugpolicy,theUSwouldrantandraveandthreatentodestroyour
exports.DoyouthinktheUSisgoingtodothatagainthistimearound,useitscloutto
enforceitsmorereactionarydrugpolicyagenda?
Intermsofdrivingthedrugwarinternationally,everythingchangedin2012,when
ColoradoandWashingtonstate,wherethevotersweregivenafreechoice,andthey
resoundinglychosetoreversegearsonthedrugwar,particularlywithregardto
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cannabis.Atthatpoint,itbecamemuchharderforourStateDepartmenttotwistarms
overseas.Infact,forabouttwoyears,theykepttheirmouthsshut,becausetheydidn't
knowwhattosay.Theyhadn'tformulatedtheirinternalcoherentpolicyyet,andsothe
LatinAmericaAttorneyGeneralsanddiplomatswouldsaytoourStateDepartment...
Theywouldask,"What'syournewpolicygoingtobenowthatyourowncitizensare
beginningtolegalizethesedrugs?Areyougoingtocontinuetoforceustomaintain
thesedraconianpolicies?"Alltheycoulddoissmileandsay,"We'restillworkingonit,"
untiltheyfinallyunveiledtheObamadoctrineoftoleratingstates'legalization.
Iftheborderwallweretobebuiltagainstallodds,whatwouldtheotherresultsbein
termsofdrugscomingin?Howwouldcartelsrespond,besidesgravitatingtowardsmore
concentratedanddeadlyproducts?
Yeah.They'vealreadyresponded.Thecounter-measuresarealreadyinplace,whichis
somethingthatTrumpisobliviousto.Theideathatbuildingawall,nomatterhowhigh
itis,isnotgoingto...A,it'snotpossibleorfeasibleintermsofjustthephysicsofit.
Trumpwantsasolidwall,forinstance,bysomeaccounts,30feethigh.Well,ifyou've
everbeeninadesertandexperiencedaflashflood,theideaofputtingawallinthe
middleofthat,thepowerofaflashfloodisjustmind-boggling.Rightnow,wehavelots
offencing,700milesorsooffencing,alongthatborder,andtheyhavefour-inchgapsin
thefence.That'stoletwildlifeandseedsandsandandwatertogothroughit.It'salso
forthesafetyofourownborderpatrol.
Theborderpatrolthemselvesdonotwantasolidwall,becauseit'sdangerousforthem.
Theywantawalltheycanseethroughsotheycanseeifpeopleareamassingonthe
otherside,planningsomekindofbreakthroughorattackorambushorwhatever.Sofor
theirownsafety,they'resayingthisisadumbidea.Now,let'ssupposethiswallisbuilt.
Well,thecounter-measureshavebeeninplaceforalongtime.Oneofthefirstreactions
fromthedrugtraffickerswhenthefencewentupwastobuildrampsonflatbedtrucks.
Theywillliterallydriveatruckuptothefence...Therearephotosyoucanseeonthe
webofthemdrivingSUVsliterallyoverthefenceandcomingdowntheotherside.
Therewouldbethosetworailsforthetirestogoon,andthendownagainontheother
side?
Exactly.Exactly.Ifwegetbetteratstoppingthose,thenthere'stheold...Theygoretro.
Romantechnology.Catapults.Theyareliterallybuildingcatapultstoflingthebalesof
drugsoverthatwall.Ifyoubuildahigherwall,they'vealreadygotabackupplan,which
ispneumaticaircannons.Peoplearefamiliarwitht-shirtcannonsinsportsstadiumsand
thatsortofthing?Thesearesoupedupversionsofthat.Theymountthemintheback
ofpickuptrucks,andtheyhaveaircompressorsthatcanlaunchhugebalesofdrugs
overthatwalllikeamortar.
Ifwegetanevenhigherwall,thenthere'salreadyaplanB,whichisultralights.They
usedtousesmallaircraft,andtheyusedtouseoldairlinersontheirlastlegsforonewaymissions.Morerecently,they'veadaptedandusedultralightaircraft,whichare
slow.Theycancarryacoupleofhundredpoundsofpayloadinadropcage.Theycango
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overthewallbutundertheradar.Eventhoughwe'regettingbetteratdetectingthose,
there'syetanotherbackupplanfortheaerialroute,whichisdrones.Forhighvalue
drugslikemethamphetamineorheroinorcocaine,that'saverypracticalapplication,
becauseyoudon'tneedahugepayload.That'stheairroute.
Onthesearoute,they'vebeenevolvingfordecadesaswell.Theyusedtousefishing
boatsandtheshrimpboatsandhidetheirrunsinseafoodshipments.Thentheymoved
tocigaretteboatsorspeedboats,andwegotfasteronourendastheCoastGuardgot
fastervessels.Thentheyadaptedandswitchedtosemi-submersibles,whicharequasisubmarinesthatremain90%underwater.Thosecanmovesixto12tonspershipment,
andtheyliestillduringtheday.Theythrowabluetarpoverthemselves,andtheyjust
liestill,andtheytravelbynight.AsoneDEAagentputit,hesaid,"Look.Youtryfinding
somethingthesizeofalogfloatinginthePacificOcean.”That'showdifficultitistostop
this.
Nonetheless,wegotbetteratdetectingthosesemi-submersibles,sotraffickersarenow
buildingfully-functionalpropersubmarinesthatcandiveupto50feetbelowwater.
Thosearereallyhardtodetect,andagain,theycanmoveupto10,12tonsatatime.
There'sanevenmoreingeniousinnovationafterthat,whichisnarcotorpedoes.They've
gotthesepodsthateithercanbeboltedunderneaththeshipandreleasedifthey're
stoppedandsearched,orthatcanbetowedwithalong,longcable.Itcanbehundreds
ofmeterslong,andsoifyoustopthosevessels,theyjustsimplyreleasethecable,and
there'snothingtofind.Meanwhile,thepod,orthenarcotorpedo,hasahomingbeacon
onitthat'sencoded,andit'sinstructedtosurfaceeverycoupleofhoursandemitits
locationtothebackupshipthat'smiles,milesbehindit,andthey'llpickupthepayload.
Thenonthelandroute,there'sunderground,sonarcotunnels.Therearehundredsof
narcotunnelscriss-crossingtheborder.We'vefoundmaybe100ofthem,andthey're
incrediblysophisticated.They'vegotrailsystems,ventilation,electricity.Those,once
they'reopen,canmovetonsandtonsperweekofdrugs,24/7,andincludingmoving
moneyandgunsandammunitionbackeitherdirection.
WhatpercentageofillicitdrugsintheUScameoverthesouthernbordertobeginwith?
Ofthose,whatpercentagecameinillicitlyasopposedastothroughtheregularportsof
entry?
Yeah.It'shardtosay,becausetheseareguesstimatesbythegovernment.Youcanonly
catchwhatyoucatch.Youcan'tseewhatyoucan'tcatch.Sufficeittosaythatverylittle
ofitcomesintheoverlandroute,whichiswhatTrumphasinmindwhenhetalksabout
...AndCongressmanSteveKingandtheseotherpeopletalkingaboutthesemigrants
withthecalvesthesizeofcantaloupes,andthey'reschleppingacoupleofkilosofdrugs,
becausetheircoyotes,thetraffickers,forcedthemtocarrydrugswhiletheysmuggle
thehumans.That'speanuts.You'retalkingaboutkilos,atthatpoint.I'mtalkingabout
tons,hundredsoftonsofdrugs.That'swherethey'recomingthroughintermsofthe
narcosubmarines,intermsofthetunnels,intermsof...
Mostofthosedrugsarecomingthroughlegalcheckpointsontheborder,okay?They're
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notbypassingthewall.They'renottryingtogoaroundthewalloroverthewallor
underthewall.They'regoingthroughthewalllegally.There'sanX-Prize,ifyouwill.If
youcanfindabetterwaytohidedrugsinvehicles,whetherit's18-wheelersorSUVsor
passengervehicles,sothat'swhatthey'redoing.They'replayingthisincrediblecatand
mousegame.Youcanseepresentationsbyborderpatrolorcustomsonallthe
ingeniouswaysthey'vefoundpeoplehavebeenabletocarveoutcompartmentsand
waystosmuggleinlegalshipments.They'recomingrightthroughlegalportsofentry
thatawallwillnotstop.
Shouldweworrythatifwereallytightenuptheillicitchannelsovertheborder,we're
moreatriskforcorruptionthroughthelicitchannels?Imean,thatpeoplewillstart
bribingpeopleratherthansneakingdrugs?
Exactly.Howarethesesomanyvehiclesgettingthroughtheselegalcheckpointsright
now?Someofitisbecausethey'reingenious,andsomeofitisbecausethey'vebribed
peopleonbothsidesofthebordertoletcertainvehiclespassthrough.Theborder
patrolhasabigproblemwithcorruption.Nowtheywanttopushthissurgeinhiringand
takingallkindsofshortcutsintermsofbackgroundchecksfortheseemployees.
Basically,ifyoubuildahugewall,you'regoingtocreateafunneltotheselegal
checkpoints.Thepeoplewhoarecorruptrightnowandmakingmoney,they'regoingto
haveevenmorebusinessbeingfunneledthroughtheirpockets,sotospeak.
Itseemslikeit'salsojustanumbersgame.Youcan'tsearcheveryvehiclegoingthrough
thecheckpoint,becausesomuchcommercegoesinandout,somuchlegitimatetravel.
It'salwaysgoingtobeastochasticthing,evenifyou'retotallyhonest.
Exactly.Thisisthefallacythatthedrugwarisbasedupon,thatsomehowwecanseal
ourbordersthatwillkeepdrugsout.We'vegotthousandsofmilesofborders.We've
gotthousandsofmilesofshoreline,andover300legalportsofentry.Youcan'tpossibly
policeallofthat.Wedon'tinspectallthecargothatcomesintothiscountry.Weprofile
it.Weinspectasmallpercentageofit.It'salwaysgoingtocomethrough.Whatcomes
throughisveryimportant,becauseifwedostopalotoftheheroinortraditionaldrugs,
thesefarmoredangeroussyntheticsubstitutesaremorepowerful,morediabolical,and
havemoreunintendedconsequences,andaremuchmoredangerousinmanyways.
Thosearesopowerfulandconcentrated,youcouldsmuggletheminverytinypackages.
ImentionedCarfentanilearlier,theelephanttranquilizer.That'sinsanelypowerful,and
thewayitcomesthroughinthemailveryoften,thesepostalpackages,isnotthatit's
smuggledinsideacellphonepartoranythingorelectronicsorwhatever.No,it's
smuggledinsidethesilicagelpacks,thethingsyouusuallythrowaway,right?The
traffickerswillinformtheirbuyers,therewillbefoursilicapacksinthisshipment.Oneof
themwillhaveatinyreddotinonecorner.That'swhereyoufindtheCarfentanil.
Imaginehavingcustomsstopeverypackagethatcomesthroughthiscountrytolookfor
atinyreddotthatmightgivesomeindica-...Thisisjustludicrous.Wetakeaproblem
that'sbad,andwemakeitworse.
Hasanybodybeenkilled,policeofficersorpostalemployeesoranybodyelsebeenkilled
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byalooseCarfentanil?Ican'timagineit'salwaysperfectlypackaged.
Itisaveryserioushazardforthem.Evenjustalittlebitofdustcanbevery,very
dangerous.Thisisquitehazardous.Again,theseareproblemsofourownmaking.Users
onthestreetdon'twanttouseCarfentanil.Theydon'twanttouseFentanyl,andthey
certainlydon'twanttouseCarfentanil,butthat'swhatdealersarecuttingtheir
shipmentsnowbecauseof...Tostretchtheirprofits.
That'sallthetimewehavefornow.Thankyousomuchforcomingontheprogram.
Mypleasure.Thankssomuch.
Nowit'stimeforrecommendedreading,ourweeklyfeaturethathelpsyouputcurrent
eventsincontext.OurfirstselectionisaninvestigationbyNickPenzenstadlerandhis
teamatUSAToday.RecentlyonTheBreach,ZephyrTeachoutexplainedwhytheforeign
emollientsclauseoftheConstitutionprohibitsthePresidentfromacceptingpayments
fromforeigngovernments.TheUSATodayteamspentfourmonthscompilingalistof
Trumppropertiesforsale,a400-unit,250milliondollarrealestateportfolio.When
theseunitssell,theproceedsgodirectlytotheTrumporganization,whichiscontrolled
byTrump'ssons,andwhichTrumpcantapforcashwheneverhewants.Anyforeign
governmentseekingtocurryfavorwithTrumpcouldoverpay,andnobodywouldever
knowiftheyusedashellcompanytohidetheiridentity.That'swhyweneedtoseehis
taxreturns.
OursecondpickisapiecebyRyanLizzainTheNewYorker,entitledTheWhiteHouse
SeemsExcitedtoShutDowntheGovernment.LizzasuccinctlyexplainshowTrumpand
hisbudgetdirectorengineeredahostagescenariooverObamacare,wherefundingfor
thefederalgovernmenthangsinthebalance.That'sitforrecommendedreading.
TheBreachisproducedbyRewireRadio.OurexecutiveproducerisMarcFaletti.Our
thememusicisDarkAlliance,performedbyDarcyJamesArgue'sSecretSociety,andI'm
yourhost,LindsayBeyerstein.Tweetyoursuggestions,comments,andquestionsto
@beyerstein,B-E-Y-E-R-S-T-E-I-NonTwitter.Seeyounextweek.
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