The Big Interview
Episode Number: 214
Episode Title: Simon Cowell
Description: In this hour-long exclusive, Simon Cowell, THE X FACTOR creator and judge,
sits down with Dan Rather for a frank and open interview. Filmed on location at his summer
home, Simon opens up on what life is like as both a reality TV tough guy and hugely successful
music and TV producer, while also reflecting on events in his personal life that he has never
before publicly shared.
ACT 1
DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
TONIGHT ON THE BIG INTERVIEW… HE’S BECOME A WORLDWIDE CELEBRITY
BEST KNOWN FOR HIS BRUTAL HONESTY…
MEAN STREAK.... LIVING UP TO NICKNAMES LIKE MR. NASTY... AND JUDGE
DREAD.
SIMON COWELL, MUSIC AND TELEVISION MOGUL
You have one of the worst voices I’ve ever heard.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
MEAN STREAK.... LIVING UP TO NICKNAMES LIKE MR. NASTY... AND JUDGE
DREAD.
COWELL
That was appalling with a capital A.
COWELL
If somebody comes in with absolutely no talent whatsoever, I think it's a crime to say to these
people, "Well, take a couple singing lessons and it will all work out."
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
BUT SIMON COWELL IS MORE THAN JUST A JUDGE WHO LEAVES CONTESTANTS
SPEECHLESS. HIS VISION IS CHANGING THE FACE OF THE ENTERTAINMENT
WORLD - CREATING HIT TELEVISION SHOWS AND MAKING STARS… OFTEN AT
THE SAME TIME.
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COWELL
I always say hits pay the bills. I mean, it's as simple as that. At the end of day, you can't survive
without being number one.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
A ONE-OF-A-KIND 21ST CENTURY MEDIA MOGUL, AS YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM
BEFORE…
RATHER
You're a father now for the first time?
COWELL
Yeah. (CHUCKLE) I mean, there have been surprises in my life. But that's number one.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
SIMON COWELL, TONIGHT ON THE BIG INTERVIEW.
ACT 2
DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
FOR NINE SEASONS, SIMON COWELL WAS THE JUDGE EVERYONE LOVED TO
HATE. BUT LOVE HIM OR HATE HIM, THEY STILL WATCHED…BY THE MILLIONS.
SIMON COWELL (ON AMERICAN IDOL)
You’re not just the girl to beat, you’re the person to beat.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
DURING HIS TIME ON AMERICAN IDOL, THE REALITY SHOW BECAME ONE OF THE
MOST SUCCESSFUL PROGRAMS IN TELEVISION HISTORY. AND COWELL WENT ON
TO CREATE HIS OWN REALITY PROGRAM CALLED THE X-FACTOR IN HIS NATIVE
ENGLAND...WHICH HE EVENTUALLY BROUGHT TO AMERICA. SIMON COWELL IS
ALSO BEHIND THE HIT SHOW “AMERICA’S GOT TALENT”. AND IF THAT WASN’T
ENOUGH, HE’S MOVING INTO THE MOVIE BUSINESS. SO WHO IS THIS RUTHLESS
ENTREPRENEUR WHO SEEMS TO HAVE HIS FINGER ON THE PULSE OF POP
CULTURE? I SAT DOWN WITH COWELL RECENTLY... AND YOU MIGHT BE
SURPRISED BY THE MAN BEHIND THE REPUTATION.
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RATHER
Well first of all, thank you so much for doing this.
COWELL
Thank you for being here.
RATHER
How could I make you feel important in this interview?
COWELL
You already have, (CHUCKLE) you're sitting here. So I feel important.
RATHER
I noticed one of your sayings, one of the first things you try to do is convince the other person
that you are going to make them feel important.
COWELL
Well, it's good that mention that. It's something my dad taught me when-- when I was very
young. And I asked him a question once, you know, how he runs a company. And he said, "It's
very simple." He said, "Everybody has a sign on their head that says make me feel important."
And it's something I've always been very aware of that when you make a show and you've got
150 people on it, every person on that show, rightly, has to feel that they're acknowledged for the
part they play. If you start thinking it's all about you, you've got a big problem.
RATHER
Well, about your father-- two of the things you've been quoted as saying, he was or was not the
originator of-- "Don't leave the fair too late"?
COWELL
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Well, he-- he said an abbreviation of that. The most direct person who actually said that was
when I met David Geffen. We went on his boat with some friends and-- and we're dying to ask
the same question, if-- he could give us one piece of advice, what would it be. And he said, "It's
very simple. Always know when to leave the fair." And that stuck with me.
RATHER
And was it-- your father or Geffen or someone else who said, "Take yes for an answer and
leave"?
COWELL
Um, it was, "When someone says yes, shut up."
RATHER
That's it.
COWELL
Yeah. And-- and I have lived my life like that-- which is if-- if I were fortunate enough to sell
something, once they said yes, I'm out of the room in five seconds. 'Cause I've been in the-- in
the reverse situation where I've yes to somebody or some-- some people and after I said yes, they
keep talking and talking and talking. And then I'm thinking, "You know what, I wish I hadn't
said yes now." (CHUCKLE) So-- it's really good advice. Just get out the room as quickly as
possible.
RATHER
You've had-- you've lived your life that way. Have you always lived your life with this relentless
honesty?
COWELL
I think so, yeah. I mean-- when I-- I-- when I was young, Dan, I-- I got into the music business
via the mailroom. And you kinda hustle your way, you know, into the main part of the record
company or the music publishing company as it was in those days. And you try and work your
way up. And the interesting thing is, it's a business where they invest millions and millions of
dollars. But they give you no training. So, you know, when you-- when you screw up, and I did
in the early days-- I mean, I was told in no uncertain terms, why I'd made a mistake. And I-- I
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was taught tough love. And in return-- I try and do the same thing back. Because the worst
thing that you can do is-- particularly when I do a talent show, if somebody comes in with
absolutely no talent whatsoever and absolutely no chance of a career, I think it's-- I think it's a
crime to say to these people, "Well, take a couple singing lessons and it will all work out."
Because it just doesn't work out that way.
RATHER
Well, I think you'll agree that it's increasingly-- uncommon to find anyone who is steadily so, I'll
use the word, relentlessly honest as you are. My question, do you use this only in your
professional life or professional and personal life?
COWELL
Probably less so in my private life. You know, like-- you know, when your girlfriend come-comes into the room and she say, you know, "Do you like my outfit?" All you-- all they wanna
hear is yes. And you actually go, "No," you're in big trouble. So I just go, "Yes," re-- regardless
of how I feel.
RATHER
Well-- you and I would share that, I would think.
COWELL
You know-- you know the (UNINTEL). (CHUCKLE)
RATHER
But when you're this-- honest in your-- and candid, even some would say brutal in your
comments in professional life-- there's a price to pay for that, isn't there?
COWELL
A little bit. Um-- I think I've learned along the years that-- you know, to do well in film, music,
TV, particularly, you know, this business, it's-- it's not a popularity competition. And-- you
know, it's-- it's-- it's a constant battle to win. And that's really all I care about. And whether I'm
liked or not is sort of immaterial. I'd like to feel I'm respected, but liked is something completely
different.
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RATHER
Well, what advice would you give, what counsel would you give, say, a young person, 12, 13, 14
years old who sees you on television and says, "Boy, that-- I like that honesty. I like the candid-that's the reason I like that guy. On the other hand, I wanna be popular." (LAUGHTER)
COWELL
Be Paula. (CHUCKLE) It's not really a problem. I think, you know, to do what I do, the only
thing I-- I-- that bothers me is whether or not I'm relevant any longer. Because I think if you're
sitting on these shows but you're not having hit records or hit artists in your real life, I think you
look a bit of an idiot. So I-- that's all I really care about, Dan. Is that I can sit on one of these
shows and justify why I'm there because in my day job, I am creating hit artists. Otherwise
you're just a judge for hire, which I just couldn't do.
RATHER
Were you ever a pleaser? Or have you always been-- harsh your buzz kinda guy?
COWELL
Well, when I was at school, I was always in trouble for talking too much. (CHUCKLE) And I
got bored really quickly. And I kinda knew school wasn't for me or college or anything like that.
So I was-- I was impatient to-- to-- to-- to start working. And-- and interesting, when I was a
very young kid, what I used to get a kick out of was making and earning my own money by
washing cars, mowing lawns or whatever it was. I used to love that. And then when I used to go
to school and I was bored-- I would get into a lot of trouble. So I'd-- I don't think I've never-really been a pleaser.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
AFTER HIGH SCHOOL, COWELL WORKED VARIOUS ODD JOBS, BUT HIS
INTRODUCTION TO THE MUSIC BUSINESS CAME AT E-M-I MUSIC IN LONDON,
WHERE HIS FATHER WORKED. COWELL GOT A JOB THERE IN THE MAIL ROOM...
BUT HIS TALENT FOR SPOTTING TALENT QUICKLY MOVED HIM UP THE RANKS...
AND IT WASN'T LONG BEFORE HE STARTED HIS OWN LABEL CALLED FANFARE
RECORDS, SIGNING HIS THEN GIRLFRIEND AND THE LABEL’S BIGGEST SUCCESS,
SINITTA. COWELL WAS LIVING THE HIGH LIFE - BUT NOT FOR LONG....
RATHER
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Well, you made it big by definition, you know, that time of your life. And then you lost it by the
time you were 30?
COWELL
Yeah.
RATHER
Tell me about that. What did you learn from that?
COWELL
Well, it was an interesting time. Because it was in the 1980s, the banks were really giving you a
ton of money to spend. The stock market was going crazy. We all wanted Porches. We all
wanted nice houses. And we all believed the hype. And-- and I was doing okay. But then it all
came-RATHER
Excuse me. This is in the music business?
COWELL
This is in the music business. I wasn't doing fantastic. I was doing okay. But I was living way
beyond my means. I borrowed money to buy a Porsche, to buy a nice house and-- and
everything. And I was out every night. I was spending a fortune drinking and everything else.
And then the whole thing came crashing down-- to a point where I think I owed the bank about
half a million dollars. And I had the equivalent of maybe five dollars in my pocket to get a cab
home to my parents. That's how bad it was. But I went home. I did a deal to pay off the bank,
which took me three years. But I paid every penny. And it didn't bother me, interestingly
enough. Once I got rid of everything, the Porsche, the house, I didn't want it. And I was now
living a more honest life. And I just thought, you know, I'm gonna start again. But I'll never
borrow money again.
RATHER
Well, how humiliating was that? Or was it? At age 30, to move back in with your parents?
COWELL
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Well, funny enough it wasn't embarrassing-- at all. If-- in a weird way, Dan, I think it was more
embarrassing me driving around in a Porsche I couldn't own or pretending I could own it, than
actually getting rid of the whole lot and buying a car for $7,000, which I could afford and I liked.
But I didn't lose a single friend. And no one was-- was-- was harsh to me or made me feel
embarrassed. My parents actually loved me going back to live with them. But it was probably,
in hindsight, the best thing that ever happened in my life because it taught me, you know, how
you can get things spectacularly wrong. And it took me about three years to get myself back on
my feet. As I said, I paid off the-- the loan to the bank.
RATHER
So now you're 33, 34?
COWELL
Yeah, about that, 33, 34. I was given a chance to build a label with one of the large labels. And
then just slowly, bit by bit, I started to have more hits, more success. And it was probably round
about that time when I understood the value of television-- in setting records. And I-- I kind of
was one of the first to I think understand that and start to build an area within that where I was
successful.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
WHEN WE RETURN - SIMON COWELL BECOMES A WORLDWIDE TELEVISION
STAR… THAT PART OF THE STORY IS NEXT.
ACT 3
DAN RATHER (VOICE OVER)
THE PHENOMENON OF AMERICAN IDOL DIDN’T BEGIN IN THE UNITED STATES.
THE SHOW... AND SIMON COWELL AS THE ACERBIC JUDGE... WAS BASED ON A
PROGRAM FROM GREAT BRITAIN - CALLED POP IDOL, WHICH IN TURN HAD BEEN
INSPIRED BY A SHOW FROM NEW ZEALAND. IT SEEMED NATURAL TO BRING IT
ALL TO THE UNITED STATES... BUT COWELL FOUND OUT THAT COMING TO
AMERICA WASN’T SO EASY.
SIMON COWELL
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I arrogantly thought I could sell the show as quickly in America. And I went to, I think, five or
six networks and literally got thrown out of every single one. And then by luck, we sold the
show to America and that's how American Idol got on the air.
RATHER
Were you surprised it took off so well so quickly?
COWELL
Yeah. I mean, I'd changed my mind again, I’d said yes to being on the American show. Then I
thought, "You know what, I don't need this again." I mean, I had so much trouble in my life
when Pop Idol came on the air.
RATHER
In Britain?
COWELL
Oh, my God. It was like, "Is this worth it." You know what the papers were saying, what people
were saying. It was fun. But it wasn't that much fun.
RATHER
It paid well?
COWELL
It paid okay. Got better as the years went on, Dan. But-- the-- we got a call to say that Fox had
bought it. And I originally said yes. And I changed my mind. Then I changed my mind again.
And I came over to film the show. And I was kinda thinking then, "Oh, this is gonna be
amazing." And then we'd rented this house. And the real estate agent said, "I'm not sure about
this show." And I said, "Why?" They said, "We've got a month's clause-- break clause on the
contract. And this is what the network had insisted on.” So they didn't think it was gonna be a
hit. And then I went back to England and then it came on air and I got this call to say, you know,
the ratings were good and, you know, the rest was kinda history.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
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A HISTORY THAT HAS BEEN BITTERSWEET FOR COWELL. A DECADE AGO, HE
WANTED TO CREATE A SHOW OF HIS OWN IN HIS NATIVE ENGLAND... HE WOULD
CALL HIS NEW VENTURE THE X-FACTOR, BUT CONTROVERSY AND LAWSUITS
FOLLOWED OVER WHETHER COWELL WAS RIPPING OFF THE IDOL BRAND.
COWELL CAN NOT TALK ABOUT THE SPECIFICS BECAUSE OF A SETTLEMENT
AGREEMENT, BUT IT’S CLEAR THAT HE FEELS CREATING “THE X-FACTOR UK”
WAS ONE OF THE PROUDEST MOMENTS OF HIS CAREER.
COWELL
I was coming off the number one show and now I had to launch a new show. And-- there was a
lot of pressure. And the first week's ratings came in, they were okay. And then the second week,
it just went crazy. And then for-- from there on in, the show became a hit. And then I-- for two
or three years, we were doing well, Dan. But what we hadn't done is broken a worldwide artist.
And I remember thinking if we didn't find an artist this year who could break and be a legitimate
artist, this all may be over. And a girl called Leona Lewis came on the show-- and she was
outstanding. She won the show and then she became one of the biggest selling artists in the
world off the back of the show. And that's when I realized that, you know, these shows really do
have a validity and there's a reason for doing them. But she was what I called a game changer.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
COWELL WAS BITTEN BY THE TV BUG BUT HIS BIGGEST SUCCESS WAS YET TO
COME. IN 2006 - HE LAUNCHED AMERICA’S GOT TALENT. AND PRETTY SOON, THE
GOT TALENT FRANCHISE WAS SWEEPING THE GLOBE. 63 COUNTRIES NOW HAVE
THEIR OWN VERSION OF THE SHOW, MAKING IT, ACCORDING TO THE GUINNESS
BOOK OF WORLD RECORDS, THE MOST ADAPTED PROGRAM IN TELEVISION
HISTORY.
RATHER
For a lot of people, having the success that X Factor had would be enough, enough success,
enough money, enough glory, enough recognition?
COWELL
Well, it was interesting story. Because trying to get that show made was a complete nightmare.
Nobody wanted to take the show and we managed to persuade a network in England to make a
pilot and it was unwatchable, this pilot, and just by accident or luck someone from NBC in
America called me, a guy called Craig and said, "I've heard you've got this-- this show. What's it
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like?" I said, "It's fantastic. I've got seven minutes to show you." 'Cause the rest was
unwatchable. And rare, he bought it in the room. And it did rate really, really well. And then I
then sold it back to the U.K. And then three days before I was due to start filming in the U.K.,
the broadcaster literally pulled the plug on it and said, "We're not gonna make the show. It's not
gonna be a hit."
RATHER
In Britain?
COWELL
In Britain. I said, "I have a 150 people waiting to-- to film this show." So they said, "We'll give
you one day on it, 24 hours. And if it doesn't work in 24 hours, we're gonna pull it." "Thanks a
lot." So I had to go up. I couldn't tell anybody. And then I think within five minutes of filming,
I sent a text back to this guy saying, "It's a hit, don't worry about it." And-- and it did become a
hit.
RATHER
Is this a case of each country has-- I don't know, Morocco Has Talent?
COWELL
Yeah.
RATHER
Columbia Has Talent?
COWELL
Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what they do. They replicate the English show, the American show.
And just over the years, it's got bigger and bigger and bigger. So, yeah, it's an important show
now.
RATHER
And from where does this creativity come?
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COWELL
Well, interestingly-- I'd say most of what we do originated years ago back in America-- where
there was the Ed Sullivan show-- Live at the Apollo, Star Search. I used to love American talent
shows. The Gong Show, I loved. And I think The Gong Show was a huge inspiration for-- for
Got Talent 'cause I thought it was so funny. And I think without The Gong Show we wouldn't
have Got Talent. Or-- if there wasn't Star Search, there wouldn't be Got Talent. So, you know,
you guys started all these shows. We just adapted them a little bit.
RATHER
Well, let's talk about the business. For-- a young person who's saying-- "I wanna be that person.
I-- I wanna be what you are today." What can they do? What should they be doing to give
themselves a chance?
COWELL
Well, it's a good question, Dan. I think that what, you know, you and I had when we first started
is what I called an apprenticeship. And I think we were both fortunate probably to have mentors
who-- I mean, I certainly had two or three people in--my life-- you did as well, yeah. And I
learned from them. And-- and there was one guy when I was in my 20s, I used to follow around
like a dog. And I used to sit in the studio and watch him work. I mean, he never paid me. But I- it was like a free education. So I was patient. And I kind of gave myself about a 20-- 25 year
window to kind of learn and achieve what I wanted to achieve. I think the difference today is-- is
that very few people are prepared to wait that long. Because you have to learn to get good at
things. You know, you're not born with a gift of making records or signing artists. It's through
experience and learning and making mistakes. But-- I would say that getting there was more fun
that being there.
RATHER
Let's pursue this a little bit. Because if you're-- let's say you're about to get out of high school
and you say to yourself, as you said to yourself, "You know what, I don't think I'm college
material." The fear sets in that number one, if you don't go off to college, then the world's gonna
pass you by. That's first of all.
COWELL
Yeah.
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RATHER
Secondly, it is, "If something's gonna happen, I gotta make it happen quickly. I can't afford to
spend four or five, ten years in an apprenticeship."
COWELL
It-- Dan, I think it depends what you want in your life. I mean, what I realized very young is that
I didn't want to live in fear. All my years in school, I did live in fear that if you got something
wrong, they would beat you (CHUCKLE) literally. So you were kind of nervous. And I-- I was
always scared that I could have a job which I may not be very good in. And my boss could hate
me. And if he hated me, he could fire me. And I thought I couldn't live my life like that. So I-I kind of prepared myself to be good at something where I wouldn't have to have a boss.
And then I would only have myself to answer to. And then I wouldn't live in fear any longer.
And there are times in this job where you get nervous or you-- or you lose your nerve. But I
don't wake up every morning like I did when I was going to school or wake up on a Monday
morning feeling sick 'cause I've got to go to school. So I'm a great believer of-- if you're not
bright at school, and I wasn't clever at school, you can teach yourself something good, provided
you have a good mentor and providing that you're patient.
RATHER
How much of this came from your mother or your father? Your father was a business person,
was he not?
COWELL
Yeah, my mum was the disciplinarian. And every time I got bad reports, she would say, "Your
father's waiting for you in the study." And then I'd (CHUCKLE) come into the study. And he
said, "Don't worry about it." He was like me. He knew I wasn't very smart. But he knew that-you know, I was always gonna be a hard worker. And he was very, very understanding. And he
honestly put no pressure on me at all. But my mum was, you know, very insistent I got good
grades and stuff like that and I never did.
RATHER
And you father didn't live to see your great success?
13
COWELL
No. It was-- it was a real tragedy that, Dan. I mean, I was doing-- I was doing pretty well. But
it was just before things went really well. He was there when I got my first number one record,
which was-- a big achievement for me.
And he was always there to give me advice. But on the day he died-- was the day I got news that
a group I'd signed and really believed in had debuted at number one with their record. And I
obviously called to give him the news. And-- and the news I got back, you know, was that he
passed away. I mean, it was-- an awful irony to that.
RATHER
Well, I wanna come back to talking about business. But since-- your father's name had been
raised, you're a father now for the first time?
COWELL
Yeah. (CHUCKLE) I mean, there have been surprises in my life. But that's number one. When
I-- when I got that call, I (CHUCKLE) was in even (UNINTEL PHRASE), "Whoa." But-honestly, one of the best thing-- no, the best thing that's ever happened in my life.
RATHER
How had it changed you?
COWELL
I think it's made me a bit calmer. I think it balances your mind, that one minute you could be
worrying about something really stupid that's happening on your shows. And then you got
somebody in front of you, you know, who is alive and-- and they're part of you. It's-- it-- it's-- a
great-- leveler.
RATHER
And you named your son after your father?
COWELL
Yes, I did.
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RATHER
Did that decision come to you instantly and quickly?
COWELL
No, interestingly-- Lauren and myself came up with it. And-- and funny enough, Lauren was
more insistent than me. 'Cause I wanted (CHUCKLE) to call him Simon. And then one day, I
called her. I went, "Maybe it's not a great idea." And she went, "Thank God you said that
because I've been worrying about this for the last three weeks."
RATHER
So you-- you considered having him being Simon?
COWELL
A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
RATHER
Did you-- did you did you not think that might-- place a very heavy load on him as he went
through life?
COWELL
Well, I did in the end. I think, you know, when he was old enough to go on Google and he
would've typed in Simon Cowell, he (CHUCKLE) might have had a few misgivings. So I didn't
wanna give him that pressure. So Eric was a very, very good-- good-- good decision.
ACT 4
RATHER
Let's talk about where the television business is, where the entertainment business is. First of all,
five, ten, 15 years-- from now, will we have television, in your opinion?
COWELL
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I think we will have TV in 15, 20 years time. I think it's gonna be still the most important thing.
But, you know, what's interesting, I think, if we had been talking even just a year ago and you'd
have asked me to say, you know, "Where do you think the future of TV is," and this is prior to
House of Cards and Netflix, I would've given you a completely different answer. I think what's
exciting-- after the success of House of Cards is that suddenly we have more buyers than we had
12 months ago, whether it's Yahoo, whether it's Netflix, Amazon and this list is gonna get bigger
and bigger and bigger. We're not so reliant upon the big networks as we used to be before.
Creatively, when you look at the quality of something like House of Cards, I mean, just the
direction, the writing, the cast, they're like movies. So I think TV has kind of gained back its
credibility again. I actually hate going to the cinema. I went the other night. I mean, it was just
the worst thing I've ever done.
RATHER
But you're in the movie business now, big time?
COWELL
I am. But I don't (CHUCKLE) like going into movie theaters. We-- we watched this movie the
other day. I mean, I've gotta tell you, watching ten minutes of trailers in 3-D with these stupid
glasses, and everything looks identical and then the film comes on, after 50 minutes, I had to
walk out. I mean, it was like being assaulted. Maybe I'm just showing my age. But I love, you
know, movies with a story. But all these crazy special effects at the moment, it was just too
much. And I-- and I hate 3-D movies.
RATHER
Well, yes, but One Direction has made a new movie. And now into a second movie, as I
understand it.
COWELL
Yeah, that was in (CHUCKLE) 3-D actually. I like-- I like some 3-D movies. Yeah, I-- it was
something I always wanted to do-- Dan. I think if I was a kid and you just said what would my
number one thing I'd like to do, I would've said I'd love to produce a movie.
RATHER (VOICE OVER)
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IN 2013 SIMON COWELL PRODUCED A DOCUMENTARY ON THE HIT BAND “ONE
DIRECTION”. IT IS A GROUP HE KNOWS WELL. THE SINGERS HAD ORIGINALLY
AUDITIONED AS SOLO ARTISTS ON THE X FACTOR UK… BUT ALL WERE
ELIMINATED FROM THE COMPETITION. THEN COWELL HAD THE IDEA OF
PUTTING THEM TOGETHER AS A GROUP… AND THEY AUDITIONED AGAIN.
COWELL
I remember looking up saying, "Thank you, God." I just knew we had some-- something
incredible, the-- the chemistry, the dynamic was unbelievable. And then they got into the live
parts of the show. They were finalists. We got all the way through to the final. And I'm already
preparing my acceptance speech as their mentor.
And they came third. And I wasn't expecting that. But then what was fascinating, off the back
of that, was about 2 or 300 what I called super fans who'd supported them all the way through
the competition-- made it their-- their job to promote this band around the world. Because I had
signed them to our record label even though they didn't win.
And then I saw something I've never seen before in 30 years in the music business, which is fans,
not a record label, marketing and promoting a band worldwide t-- to the point when we released
their first album, and they'd only been to three countries, they went to number one in 43
countries simultaneously.
And I still to this day owe and credit everything to this 200 or 300 hundred group of fans who
just did the most phenomenal job I've ever seen. And that's now the age of promoting bands with
what we have on the internet. That's when the internet is so powerful, it can do your job for you.
DAN RATHER
Internet is so powerful it can do your job for you. But it can also destroy you in an instant?
COWELL
A hundred percent-- a hundred percent (CHUCKLE) trust me, Dan. I think about that on a daily
basis. No-- nowhere to hide.
RATHER
What does that do to the music business? What does it do to the television business? What does
it do to the entertainment business, this new internet reality that you've just described?
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COWELL
For us, and for me, I think it's the best thing that's ever happened. I-- I can remember trying to
promote a band in America 15 years ago. It would take a minimum of six to nine months to get a
small amount of awareness on a group. You would have to go to radio station to radio station.
You'd have to do really horrible little clubs, gigs, anything to get known. And you could do nine
months and get absolutely nowhere at the end of it. Today, you can have a song, have a video.
It can go viral-- Susan Boyle was a good example, who was on Britain's Got Talent.
She was 45 years old or whatever. She was living on her own. She didn't look like a pop star.
And we'd all written her off before she even sang a note-- along with the audience. Started
singing. We looked up and thought, "My God, we've made a huge mistake here."
When that clip was shown-- and I was in LA when it was transmitted in the U.K., I watched this
thing in 24 hours go to 50 million hits, within a month, 100 million. And now it's over a billion
hits on YouTube. So the internet made this girl a global star within days. And that's when it can
work for you.
Without YouTube, Susan Boyle never could have been a hit outside of England. It would've
been impossible.
RATHER
Well, where is this going? Where is it heading?
COWELL
Well, I think-- as long as you are-- I mean, as you-- as quite rightly said that it can hurt you as
well it can-- it can do great things for you. You've gotta be careful. I mean, when—when our
shows are transmitted, when X Factor, U.K. goes out on-- on your channel here, you know,
people are gonna be watching this minutely, expressing their opinions on Twitter, Facebook and
everywhere else.
And-- you know,it's a whole different ballgame. I personally-- I love it. I love watching our
shows back when they-- when they go out live. And I'm-- and I have my computer on at the
same time. I'm watching the social-- social stuff on Twitter or wherever else as I'm watching the
show. And both are equally entertaining. So I think the fact that viewers have such strong
opinions now, it's almost as much fun as watching the show.
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As a producer, I mean-- it's intoxicating. It's so exciting, you know, have-- having that ability to
actually have that instant, instant feedback as to how-- how people are-- are reacting to your
show or not.
RATHER
I could understand-- it being exhilarating. But it also can be depressing if you see yourself
(CHUCKLE) going down the tubes all of a sudden.
COWELL
I've seen it go the other way, trust me. Which is this show (CHUCKLE) is a complete dog, if I'm
looking at the reaction now. And they were right.
RATHER
Ride with me for a moment. I was posted to Great Britain as a news correspondent in the '60s.
And-COWELL
Were we nice to you?
RATHER
Very nice, you know, happy to say. When I was there an older more experienced correspondent
said to me, he said, "Dan-- I have this piece of advice for you, because they speak the same
language, sometimes we Americans forget that it is a different country."
And that has echoed with me. You have made the transition. You've brought programs that
have been very successful in-- in the United Kingdom to our country sort of seamlessly. And I'm
interested to know whether that's still true.
COWELL
You know, I was told exactly the same thing back in reverse about-- about Americans. I heard
that before I came to America, Dan. But once I came to America, and maybe I was naive.
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But I-- I realized that we-- we had a very similar sense of humor. We all-- react to a strong
emotion in the same way. If we hate someone or love somebody or feel compassionate about
somebody, we have very, very similar emotions.
I think the difference was when I first came here was I think you are more polite in America than
we are in the U.K. So, you know, the very first time I was, you know, recording American Idol
and told someone they were useless, Paula, who was sitting next to me was like, "You can't say
that." It's like, (CHUCKLE) "Yes, I can." And-- and she was shocked. And I think the audience
were a bit shocked. But then I think they started to understand that, you know, that that's-- that's
the-- the whole point of the show, is to try and be honest and-- and not, you know, be-- lie to
people, I guess.
RATHER
Well, I would-- I'm gonna turn that on its head. I've always thought that people in Great Britain
and the United Kingdom, if anything, are a little more polite than we are in this country. True,
they may speak more bluntly. And I'm not here to blow smoke at you. But anybody who knows
you, whatever your flaws are, you are a very uncommonly polite person, particularly for
someone who's in-- I'll go ahead and say it, in the entertainment field. How and why did that
come about?
COWELL
Well, thank you. My mum told-- taught me. She had an expression as a kid which she said to
us, "Manners maketh the man." And-- and I suppose going back to what my dad said as well
about acknowledging people around you. I-- I do have that ability. If I walk in the room, I'm
aware of everybody. Because it's important that-- that they feel part of what we do and
appreciate it. And by the way, if you don't like people, you can't do this job. It's as simple as
that.
RATHER
Well, tell me about that.
COWELL
Well, it-- I-- I think that, you know, when you're sitting as a judge judging-- judging these shows.
I mean, this is one of the issues I have at the moment when you put too many singers on a
judging panel. Singers don't want to find other stars.
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It's just not (CHUCKLE) in their DNA. They only think about themselves. That is the nature of
being a solo artist. I am a cold hearted A&R guy, record-- I own a record label. So the only
thing I'm interested in is finding a star. Now, you put a singer in my seat and somebody ten
years younger than her comes on and is better than her, she does not want her to do well. It's a
fact. That's why it's kinda crazy what's going on at the moment, that you've got singers judging
other singers. It-- it doesn't work.
RATHER
Was that your problem with Paula?
COWELL
A hundred percent. (CHUCKLE) Of course, she'll kill me for that.
COWELL
Paula was the exception to the rule. (CHUCKLE) She was better than others, let's put it this
way. I do watch other shows sometimes. And I'm thinking, "You're not sitting there thinking, 'I
wanna hear you.' You're sitting there thinking, 'I actually wanna promote my next record now.'"
And it's so obvious and visible, Dan. And it just goes against the way you find stars. We never
hire artists from my record label to find other artists. 'Cause they can't do it. And they won't do
it.
RATHER
Yeah. Well, having complimented you about your manners and I love what your mother said,
"Manners maketh the man." What a nice saying. You know what's said about you on the
negative side. So let's start with a few things. Say to me, "Dan, what you don't know about
Simon is he's really greedy." (CHUCKLE) Not the first time you've heard that.
COWELL
Greedy? (CHUCKLE) I'm not greedy. I'll tell you what it is. I-- 'cause-- you said to me-awhile ago, I must have made a lot of money when I first did Pop Idol or American Idol. I mean,
the truth was I-- I got paid nothing on the first series of Pop Idol. And I got paid not-- not much
more than nothing on the first show of American Idol.
Once the show became successful my feeling was if you're making a lot of money, then so
should I. I mean, it's just fair. You can't have it all if I'm having a part of this. So I believe in
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balance. But as somebody, when we go out for dinner, I'm-- I will always try and pay the bill.
And I don't like people who don't try and pay the bill. I don't like meanness. But I've always
been very strong about being paid what I believe I'm owed.
ACT 5
DAN RATHER
What do you consider to be-- your biggest weakness or vulnerability?
SIMON COWELL
My biggest weakness is probably being led by your heart and not your head. There are things
I've done, artists I've signed, shows I've made where my heart, at that time, as I said, was-- was-was definitely the more dominant. And then your head kicks in a few weeks later and goes,
"What the hell (CHUCKLE) have you done?" But at that point-- I am pretty good at holding my
hands up and saying, "That was my responsibility. That was my mistake." But-- it happens.
RATHER
And what do you consider to be your best strength?
COWELL
I-- I would say my best strength is-- is that I-- I'm a good listener. I like to have a lot of people in
the room. I like to hear their opinions. I understand that people outside of my company could
have better ideas than us and we have to be aware of that.
RATHER
From where does that come, this-- this determination to listen and to be a good listener? It's not- all that common of trait, particularly these days.
I like every day, to learn something new. And-- I'm curious. And I think that when-- you hire
young people, they have much more knowledge of what is happening in the world today than I
do. Because they are on their phones. They are all on internet all day long. They're on way
more different channels on the internet than I am. So they actually know more that's going on
than I do. So it's their job to tell me, rather than the other way around. (CHUCKLE) That's why
we pay them.
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RATHER
Professionally, best day of your life?
COWELL
I would say, Dan, that it was the second week's rating of X Factor, when it cemented itself
enough for me to know it was gonna be a hit.
RATHER
This was after you'd had success on Idol, but Idol wasn't your program. X Factor was your
program. You had a tough time selling it. You sell it. You get a onetime shot. What poker
players would call a one-card cut. And by the second week, you knew that your new baby was
gonna take off?
COWELL
You said it better than me. That's exactly what it was. And there was a lot of knives out there
that-- that second week. And I could feel them about to go into my skin. And it was-- it was a
real moment of relief, Dan, when that happened.
Because if it had gone the other way, it wouldn't have been great. And, you know, the truth is-particularly in Hollywood, you do something wrong, you are toast. People do not wanna touch
you. They're superstitious. If you fail at something, as far as they're concerned, you failed for
life.
RATHER
You've-- you become Typhoid Simon.
COWELL
By the way, I get it. When we do something that doesn't go wrong, I say (CHUCKLE) to my
company, "Just be clear, no one's gonna wanna talk to us for six months. So don't worry about it.
Don't take it personally. Just use this time. Come back with another hit. You have another hit,
everything's reversed."
RATHER
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I asked you about professional life. In your personal life, what's been the worst moment of your
personal life?
COWELL
Worst day of my life, Dan, was the day my-- my dad passed away. It was-- without question,
something I'd never expected or experienced. So when it happened, I mean, I could recall every
moment of that day. It was horrendous. Nothing's come close.
RATHER
What did you learn from that, that you carry with you now and how has that affected your life as
you've gone forward?
COWELL
What I took from it, Dan, was in relation to my mum, is that every day I spent with my dad,
meant something. Every day I didn't spend with him, meant something. And therefore every
day I can, that I can have some interaction with my mum or my family is gonna count for
something when it's all over. And I was lucky that I-- I was able to say that the only good thing
about was that we'd had a fantastic relationship. You know, and to-- to the day he died.
RATHER
What are the chances now that you're a new father, your son is not-- not even a year old now.
Have you thought about something along the lines, "How can I be as good a father to my son as
my father was to me"? Or is the world turning too fast for you to think that way?
COWELL
Well, it's an interesting question. And I've lot about it a lot. I mean, look, the times are so
different. I-- I guess, (CHUCKLE) what I don't want him doing is-- is being on an iPad for too
long during the day. I-- I-- I-- I would encourage him to play football, swim, be outdoors, as
much as possible.
And learn how to talk. Because you know, the more people text and the more people start to
abbreviate these text messages, it's gonna be very difficult for people to communicate as you and
I are able to communicate now, in the future. Because, if you-- if you lose the ability to learn
how to communicate with people, even telephone calls are rare now.
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RATHER
If your life is like mine, a lot of people don't even want a telephone call anymore.
COWELL
They don't wanna talk to you.
RATHER
They avoid it. They wanna text or they wanna email.
COWELL
A hundred percent. And I-- I avoid emails as much as possible. I-- I-- I'm not crazy about
telephone calls. I like face-to-face-- communication with people. And so that's-- going back to
my son, is that that's what I would-- I'm gonna try and-- and-- and teach him, which is how
important it is to be face-to-face with people, try not to text too much and be kind to animals.
RATHER
Well, as you've gone through life-- have you ever been what you considered to be too heavily
into drink?
COWELL
Of course. (CHUCKLE) I'm not-- I-- I mean, I have a rule, which is never drink in the day time
and never drink before-- before you eat-- when you're having dinner. A couple of vodkas at
nighttime. No, I once said, it would be fun to do a live show drunk. (CHUCKLE) And-- I need
to kill everyone to do it.
RATHER
You haven't had the guts to do that?
COWELL
I think I will one day. I have-- it's just something-- 'cause I think I was watching a Dean Martin-talk show years ago. And he was definitely sloshed. And it was one of the funniest interviews
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I've ever seen. And-- and those the days where (CHUCKLE) you could go on a talk show and
have a few whiskeys and a cigarette. And I thought I would have loved to have been around
those days.
RATHER
Well, if you decide to do it, please call me collect (CHUCKLE) before it shows. We'd like to
tape it. We'd like to tape it.
COWELL
I'll let you know. (CHUCKLE)
Act 6
DAN RATHER
Who out there now has it? Who do you see or hear and you say to yourself, he or she has it?
What are the X factors, they have it?
SIMON COWELL
Without question, Beyoncé. Because she has, more than any other artist I've ever met in my life,
total utter steel in her eyes. She's what I call, and I mean this as a compliment, a killer. She is so
aware of herself, the business, her star power, what it takes-- the hours she puts in.
She was like Michael Jackson when she-- when Michael Jackson was-- on the top of his game
and he was asked what are the three important things to be a star. And he said rehearse, rehearse,
rehearse. And when Michael was on the top of his game, he had that. And she has that. She-you can just tell that she is-- like, I said, she's a killer.
RATHER
Stands alone?
COWELL
At the moment, yeah.
RATHER
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Yeah?
COWELL
Yeah.
RATHER
Well, Simon, what's ahead for you? You've accomplished so much.
COWELL
I always say hits pay the bills. I mean, it's as simple as that. Some will pay more. You know,
some will pay less. But at the end of day, you can't survive without being number one or being
close to number one. And you gotta have hits, whether you're making movies, TV shows, music.
It is-- th-- that's all I ever say to my staff. "Don't tell me a record going in at number 12 is better
than a record going in at number one." If you're number one in the ratings, number one in the
box office, you're doing great and that's all we ever aspire to be.
And like I said to you earlier on, for me personally, is to be relevant. I never wanna be sitting in
this chair talking to someone like you or-- or-- or judging a show where I really don't know what
I'm talking about. 'Cause that's the point you gotta stop doing what you're doing.
Well, I haven't-- I haven't asked you this question. I've waited til the end. Who are you? I
mean, who are you really?
COWELL
Happy and lucky. I would put it like that. And-- I say happy and lucky because luck plays a
part. Obviously skill plays a part. But I'm fortunate enough to say-- I was asked a question the
other night over dinner. We were playing this game.
If you met this-- the-- the 16-year-old self and you're able to go back in time and you met that
person at 16, what would you say to that person? (CHUCKLE) And I would've said, "It's all
gonna work out fine." Because genuinely, I don't think it was.
RATHER
Which is hard to believe when you're 16?
27
COWELL
A 100%. So-- you know, I wouldn't have changed anything. You know, it's-- it's been a blast.
And-- and I'm lucky that I can, you know, wake up on a Monday morning without that-- that pit
in my-- in my stomach and actually look forward to what I do.
RATHER
Tell me something about yourself that I don't know and the public doesn't know.
COWELL
I like people. I really, really do. I mean, it doesn't always come over that way. But-RATHER
Behind the mask, do you really like people?
COWELL
Yeah, I really do. What I don't get are people who are on TV or making records or making
movies who bleat about the paparazzi or going out in public, et cetera, et cetera. I always say,
"Well, then do a different job." You know, (CHUCKLE) you put yourself in that position. And
the people are buying your records, watching your shows, the least you could do is shake their
hands when they come up to you. I mean-- who cares. 'Cause one day they won't.
RATHER
Well, Simon, you've been so generous with your time. And you've been in the moment, an
interviewer can't ask anything more.
RATHER
Is there anything that you came into this interview saying, "Listen, I'm gonna talk to Dan." But
if it's-- just one thing I want the audience to come away from this interview thinking and
knowing about me, what would it be?
COWELL
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Honestly I think you covered it. I'd like you to meet my dogs.
RATHER
I'd love to meet your dogs.
COWELL
Can we get Squiddly and Diddly? 'Cause all they-- although I've got one proper baby, these are
my two other babies. (CLAP) Here they are. Here's Squiddly and Diddly. Come on, guys. Put
'em down. They'll run up. (VOICE) Come on, guys. Hello. (CHUCKLE) Say hello. These are
my two other babies.
RATHER
And how old are they?
COWELL
They're about a year old now. Yeah.
RATHER
Now, have you trained them yourself? You don't have time to train the dogs?
COWELL
I've-- Dan, I've tried. They are untrainable. (CHUCKLE) I mean, literally.
RATHER
No.
COWELL
Or maybe it's just me.
RATHER
Simon, thank you.
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COWELL
Dan, it's been an absolute pleasure. I really mean that.
RATHER (NARRATION)
And that’s The Big Interview for tonight. We are always eager to hear what you have to say so
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