13
INTERVIEW
WITH LENIN
IN T R O D U C T IO N :
T his d ocum en t p u rp o rts to be an a c c o u n t of
a m e e t in g b e tw e e n L e n in a n d tw o
representatives o f the C o m m u n is t Party o f
A ustralia in M oscow on D ecem ber 1, 1922
d u rin g the F ourth C ongress o f th e C o m m u n ist
International. As far as is know n it is the o n ly
repo rt o f the discu ssio n and it th e re fo re has
considerable sig n ifica n c e . A m em ber o f the
Tribune co lle ctive sortin g th ro u g h the papers
o f the late Alec R obertson, (Tribune e d ito r
1964-74), discovered it m ore o r less by chance.
N othing is know n a b o u t how the o rig in a l
d o cu m e n t cam e to be w ritte n o r its h is to ry
b e tw e e n 1922 a n d 1976 w h e n it w as
discovered. However, W.P. E arsm an’s name is
typed at the end and som e c o rre c tio n s have
been made w ith a fo u n ta in pen. In 1922 W.P.
Earsman was a m em ber o f the E xecutive
C o m m itt e e
(E C C I)
and
A u s t r a lia n
representative at the C o m in te rn . T here seems
no stro ng reason to d o u b t its a u th e n tic ity .
O f the three p a rticip a n ts in th e discussion,
L e n in h a rd ly n e e d s a n y in tr o d u c t io n .
However, it is w o rth n o tin g that, at the tim e of
the discussion, he was a very sick man. A fte r a
period o f ill-h e a lth Lenin su ffe re d the firs t o f
several strokes in May 1922. He was p a rtia lly
incapacitated and lost the p o w e r o f speech.
Nevertheless, he made a great e ffo rt to recover
and, a fter co nvalescing in G o rki, returned to
M oscow in O cto b e r 1922, was able to w o rk
part-tim e, and p a rtic ip a te d b rie fly in the
F o u r th C o n g r e s s o f th e C o m in t e r n .
U n fortu nately, the illness (a rte rio -scle ro sis)
w a s p ro g re s s iv e
and
L e n in ’s h e a lth
d e teriorated. T hus on N ovem ber 25 his
physicia ns prescribed ab so lute rest.
S h o rtly a fte r th e m e e tin g w ith th e
A ustralians, Lenin had a second m ore severe
stroke, b u t he was able, at the end of
D ecem ber and in early January to d ic ta te hi&
fam ous T estam ent. His health c o n tin u e d to
de teriorate and he died on January 21, 1924.
W.P. (B ill) Earsman, th e a u th o r o fth e reDort,
was a m a jo r fig u re in the fo rm a tio n o f the
C o m m u n ist Party o f A u stra lia and its first
secretary. He was a delegate to the Third
C ongress o f th e C o m in te rn in 1921. After
re tu rn in g b rie fly to A u stra lia he becam e the
A u stralian representative at the C o m in te rn
and a m em ber o f the E C C I.(1)
The th ird person m entioned was J.S (Jock)
G arden, se cre ta ry of the New S outh Wales
Labor C o u n cil, 1918-37, firs t ch a irm a n of the
C o m m u n ist Party, delegate to the Fourth
C ongress o f the C o m in te rn and A u stra lia n
delegate to the Second C ongress o f th e Red
In te r n a tio n a l o f T ra d e U n io n s (R IT U P ro fin te rn ).
As to the substance o f the report, perhaps
the firs t th in g to note is the passage o t tim e.
There seems now to be a fu n n y m ix tu re of
realism and naivete a b o u t the d iscu ssio n .
Som e of the views expressed m ay seem
quaint, even exaggerated. But there is also
m uch o f in te re st and to p ic a l relevance.
The m ost p e rtin e n t q u e stio n is w h y Lenin,
sup p o se d ly u n d e r d o c to rs ' o rders to have a
co m p le te rest, should have s o u g h t o u t two
fa irly o bscure people to ta lk ab o u t the p o litic a l
s itu a tio n in a c o u n try w h ich rem ained a se lfgove rn in g c o lo n y. T here is no co m p le te ly
sa tisfa cto ry answ er to th is q u estion and to a
14
A USTRA LIAN LEFT REVIEW No. 53
large e xte n t one is guessing, b u t a p ro b a b ility
(w h ich tends to be c o n firm e d by the in te rn a l
evidence) is the s ig n ific a n c e w h ic h the
C o m m u n ist In te rn a tio n a l le adership, and
Lenin in p a rticu la r, had com e to attach to the
u n ite d fro n t.
P roce edin g both fro m R ussian in te rn a l
affairs and in te rn a tio n a l events in the firs t half
o f 1921 - K ronstadt, NEP, the M arch a c tio n in
G erm any, the A n g lo -S o v ie t T reaty, etc., - the
C o m in te rn , firs t at the T h ird C ongress b u t very
e x p lic itly at the ECCI m eeting at the end o f
1921, launched a new united fro n t p o lic y
w hich em phasised the need to de ve lop the
u n ity o f the w o rk in g class, in both p o litic a l and
trade unio n action. A lre a d y T ro ts k y , at the
T h ird C ongress, had so u g h t o u t Earsm an to
o ffe r h elp in n e g o tia tio n s on w h ich Earsm an
was engaged. E arsm an’s a c co u n ts o f the
ra d ica lisa tio n in A ustra lia and the le ftw a rd
sw ing o f the un io ns had su rp rise d C o m in te rn
leaders.
One m a jo r strand in the C o m m u n ist P arty in
A u stra lia developed fro m the trade u n io n is ts
w ho had form e d the le ftw in g o f the L a b o r
Party. Earsm an and G arden, in th e ir persons,
represented the m erging o f the tw o clo se st
trends; both w ere un io nists, Earsm an - h a lf­
s o c ia list h a lf-s y n d ic a lis t , n o n -L a b o r Party;
Garden - Labor Party and in d u s tria l u n io nist.
They shared a g ood deal o f c o m m o n g ro u n d
d is tin c t, on the one hand, fro m the d o c trin a ire
socialists, on the other, fro m the ex-IW W s. In
the early s tru g g le s inside the CPA, the
E arsm an-G arden tre n d had fo rm e d an allia n ce
w ith the ex-IW W s to de fe a t the d o c trin a ire
socialists.
L e n in ’s a p proach is e vid e nt fro m his
p re o ccu p a tio n w ith the L a b o r Party, his
su rp rise at the a d o p tio n o f th e S o cia list
O bjective, his em phasis on w o rk w ith the
L a bor Party masses, his behest n o t to make
“ the m istake o f a tta c k in g the L a b o r P arty in
g e n e ra l” and his stress on the tra d e u n io n s as
“ the m ost im p o rta n t o rg a n is a tio n o f the
w o rk in g class” .
As fo r the C o m m u n is t Party his p o in ts are
s till to p ica l; the need fo r a mass p a rty w in n in g
the c o n fid e n ce of the w o rke rs; and the da n g e r
o f em pty re v o lu tio n a ry rh e to ric . Perhaps
Earsman a ttrib u te d m ore to Lenin than his
actual w ords. As an A u stra lia n re v o lu tio n a ry ,
Earsman p ro b a b ly o ver-stated L e n in ’s view
abo u t A u s tra lia ’s im p o rta n ce, a lth o u g h social
reform s in A u stra lia and L a b o rg o v e rn m e n ts in
the early tw e n tie th c e n tu ry did p ro vo ke the
interests of s o cia lists fro m m any c o u n trie s,
in c lu d in g the B olsheviks.
- Roger Coates.
F O O TN O TE S
1) See R oger C oates, “ T he Earsm an R e p o rt” ,
Australian Left Review 27, O ct-N o v. 1970; Jane
D egras (ed), The Comm unist International, 19191943, vol.1, p.455.
2) P ro fin te rn , Red In te rn a tio n a l o f L a b o r (T ra de )
U n io n s, (R IL [T ]U ), fo rm e d at th e tim e o f th e T h ird
C o n g re s s o f the C o m m u n is t In te rn a tio n a l, J u ly
1921.
3. T h is is a p p a re n tly a refe re n ce to th e S o c ia lis t
O b je c tiv e
a d o p te d
a t th e C o m m o n w e a lth
C o n fe re n c e o f th e A u s tra lia n L a b or Party in O c to b e r
1921
4) T he NSW L a b o r C o u n c il had a ffilia te d w ith the
R ITU in 1922 a fte r h e a rin g a re p o rt o f its p re sid e n t, J.
H ow ie, w h o a tte nd e d th e fo u n d in g C o n g re ss in Ju ly
1921. H o w ie a c tu a lly o ffic ia lly rep re se n te d a
m a jo rity o f A u stra lia n u n io n is ts at th e C on g re ss.
5) T he co n g re ss, w h ic h m et in J u n e 1921,
fo rm u la te d the S o c ia lis t O b je c tiv e fo r su b m is s io n to
the L a b o r Party.
6) The P a n -P a cific C o n g re ss p ro p o sa l led to som e
s o rt of co n ce rte d a ctio n w ith Asian u n io n is ts in 1926
and 1927.
THE INTERVIEW WITH LENIN
It was in the evening o f Dec. 1 1922, it was a
very cold day w ith 9 inches o f snow and
freezing 20 degrees below zero when I saw
C om ra de Lenin.
It had been a very hard and w eary day at the
C o n ference and a fter d in n e r I laid do w n to
have a rest before g o in g to the P ro fite rn [sic]
C o n fe re n c e .(2) I had ju s t g o t settled and was
b e g inn in g to fall o ff to sleep, w hen the
tele p h o n e rang. I rose to answ er it, cu rsin g
every body in general and w is h in g all the
telephones w ere a b o lish e d fro m the room s.
On liftin g the receiver how ever I was soon all
a tte n tio n , because it was C o m ra d e Lenin
requesting me to go to him at 7 o 'c lo c k that
evening. C om rade G arden was ly in g dow n and
IN TER VIEW W ITH LENIN
I asked pe rm ission fo r him to a cco m p a n y me,
th is was granted.
A t 7 th a t evening we w ere a tth e K rem lin and
w ent rig h t up sta irs to “ T he O ld m an's” room ,
this is the pet nam e Lenin is know n by in
o f f ic ia l c ir c le s . He c a m e fo r w a r d and
w elcom ed us, we drew o u r c h a irs clo se up to
him and im m e diately g o t to business. On o u r
in q u irin g as to his health Lenin replied "T h a t
he was a lrig h t now and was b e g in n in g to feel
q u ite him se lf again, but s till fe lt a little weak
and soon g o t tire d a fte r he had done any w ork.
I can not go on fo r m ore than 4 h o u rs at a tim e
and then I m ust have a rest, and n o t even read
a n ything, I am lo n g in g to go back to m y w o rk
again and see th in g s fo r m v s e lf.”
T o look at him , he appeared to me to be the
old Lenin that I had m et last year, except
that I am m eeting him on th is o cca sio n u n der
d iffe re n t circu m sta n ce s w h ic h w ere th a t I was
not in the o ffice but in his ow n room , w h ich
gave the a tm osphere m ore o f a frie n d ly talk
than a business one. In fa c t it was an
o p p o rtu n ity th a t few p eople had given to them ,
and I can assure you th a t I fu lly a ppreciated it,
because I saw Lenin in a n o th e r role w h ich I
have n o t seen described by others.
Lenin set o ff by saying “ T ell me all ab o u t
A u stra lia its de velop m e n t, in te rn a lly and its
co n n e ctio n s w ith o th e r co u n trie s, you kn o w I
have read n o th in g fo r nearly a year, and seen
very few people and th is to n ig h t is a real feast
fo r m e.”
I b rie fly ou tlin e d the de ve lo p m e n t d u rin g the
war, its in flu e nce and its e ffe cts on the
co u n try, I told him of the p o litic a l parties and
p a rtic u la rly the A.L.P. He was very su rp rise d at
its program m e and asked m any q u e stio n s how
the situation had been b ro u g h t a b o u t.(3)
W hen it had been exam ined, he sm iled and
said “ I am very ce rta in th a t if o u r pa rty g o t to
w ork w ith the masses in the L a bor Party they
w ill find very, very good m aterial su ita b le fo r
m em bership o f the C o m m u n is t Party, but do
not m ake the m istake of a tta c k in g the Labor
Party in general. R em ber the masses m ake up
the Labor Party and th e y are alw ays goo d . You
m ust be sure to divide the BO U R G EO IS
LABO R LEADERS fro m the masses and yo u r
c ritic is m should be aim ed at iso la tin g those
leaders from the masses. The C o m m u n ist
Party has to w o rk w ith the masses and m ould
th e ir p o litica l o p in io n s, and at no tim e should
we antagonise the masses. If we are the real
leaders, we m ust prove it by alw ays being w ith
15
them in all th e ir stru g g le s."
A gain Lenin was su rp rise d at th e rapid
e c o n o m ic d evelopm ent, p a rtic u la rly the mass
p ro d u c tio n in a g ric u ltu re , he th o u g h t was
w o n d e rfu l. Then he asked a b o u t the T rade
U nions and C o m ra d e Garden gave him all the
in fo rm a tio n and facts. He was pleased at the
high percentage of w o rke rs org a n ise d and the
d e ve lop m e n t o f In d u stria l U n io n ism , b u t the
best piece o f news was th e fa c t th a t the N.S.W.
Labor C o u n c il was a ffilia te d to the R .I.L.U .(4)
Lenin th o u g h t th a t th is was a real ach ie vem e n t
fo r so sm all a pa rty as o urs and to ld C om rade
Garden th a t it was m a g n ifica n t. “ Keep y o u r
eyes on the U nions, th e y are the m ost
im p o rta n t o rg a n isa tio n o f the w o rk in g class,
g reat care is required in th is w o rk because one
is very apt to becom e a T rade U n io n is t and not
a C o m m u n is t.” His next in q u irie s w ere ab o u t
the navy, the arm y and th e police, we gave him
as m uch in fo rm a tio n as we co u ld , (w ith o u t
g ivin g away any g o ve rn m en t secrets).
Then I proceeded to tell him o f the recent
developm ents, and the a tte n tio n the c o u n try
was receiving from the A m erican ca p ita lists.
H ow they w ere investing m oney in m any
industries, such as Meat, M in in g and Coal;
b u yin g up land and se cu rin g leases o f all
lands. I also to ld him of T e o d o re ’s experiences
a tte m p tin g to b o rro w m oney, how he w e n t to
the A m e rica n fin a n c ie rs and secured som e
m illio n s after the London fin a n c ie rs had
refused him . F o rtw o m in u te s Lenin sat lo o kin g
at me w ith a b so lute a s to n ish m e n t on his face,
then b e nding fo rw a rd and lo o kin g hard at me,
he said “ T h is is the m ost s ta rtlin g th in g I have
ever heard of. All my life and in all my
e xperience I have o n ly know n one co n s is te n t
th in g and th a t is the a b solute s o lid a rity o f the
c a p ita lis t class, and here in fa r away A u stra lia
you have even broken dow n th a t fo r a m inute.
H a h ! We m u s t fin d so m e m e a n s o f
e x p ro p ria tin g these kind benevolent A m erican
c a p ita lis ts ” .
The next q u e stio n we dealt w ith was the All
A u stralian C ongress o f Trades U n io n s and its
w ork, e sp e cia lly the re so lu tio n d e aling w ith
the Pan P acific C o n g re ss,(5) Lenin said, “ T hat
is a very fine idea but you have set yourselves a
m uch b ig g e r task than you recognise. It w ill
take a great deal of w o rk to a c c o m p lis h this
su cce ssfu lly, and it w ill take lo n g e r than you
realise. The o p p o s tio n of the L a bor Party
c o m b in e d w ith the p re ju d ice of the w o rke rs in
the fa r East, a rising o u t o f y o u r p o lic y of
16
A USTRA LIAN LEFT REVIEW No. 53
“ W H ITE A U S T R A L IA " w ill be som e o f the
d iffic u ltie s you w ill have to co n te n d w ith .
N evertheless it is som ething w o rth setting out
to acco m p lish and w ill have a very big
in flu e n c e a m o n g s t th e w o rk e rs o f a ll
c o u n trie s .” (6)
T he next p roblem was, The R e la tio n sh ip of
A u stra lia to the “ M other C o u n try ” , and
w h ether A ustralia m ust w a it the success o f the
w orkers in B ritain, before o u r tim e of
R evolution w o u ld arrive. Lenin replied "T h a t is
a very big questio n and very m any th in g s w ill
have to be taken into co n sid era tio n , the arm y,
the navy and the p o lice and w h a t ch a n c e th e re
is o f having them w ith us. N ext y o u r chance of
g e ttin g co n tro l o f the A ir S ervice, and
rem em ber th a t is m ore im p o rta n t than the
o th e r departm ents. Then there is p o iso no u s
gas w h ich m ust be kept in m ind. A fte r ta k in g all
th is in to co n sid era tio n , you m ust tu rn y o u r
a tte n tio n to the qu estion o f attacks fro m the
outside. The chances o f sending a B ritish arm y
from India, or one fro m Japan a ctin g in
c o n ju n c tio n w ith B ritain.
T h a t m ust be fu lly co n sid ere d and y o u r
chances against ho ld in g out in th e face o f such
a developm ent. T his o f course is ta kin g fo r
granted th a t you have a m a jo rity of the w o rke rs
in sym p athy w ith you. Y o u rfo o d su p p lie s m ust
be borne in m ind because th is is the firs t step
tow ards real success. W ith th is w ell in hand
you w ill be able to handle the masses and
prevent them fro m b ecom ing a m ob, on ce you
lose c o n tro l then all is lost. Have no m ercy
fo r the bo u rg e o isie if they stand in the way.
W ipe them out, but not w ith tears in y o u r eyes
because sym p athy is lost on these ge n try.
T hey m ust be disarm ed and suppressed at all
costs.
“ The p o sitio n in A u stra lia is a dang e ro u s
one fo r such a sm all pa rty and every e ffo rt
m ust be m ade to becom e a mass party. You
m ust get the co n fid e n ce o f the w o rke rs even if
you have to take a step backw ard in y o u r
propaganda. Do n o t frig h te n the mass w ith
em pty talk abo ut re vo lu tio n and do not
u n n e c e s s a ry a ro u s e th e b o u r g e o is ie ’s
su spicions. Do not fo rg e t w hat happened in
S outh A frica , there is an o b je c t lesson fo r you.
The b o u rg e o isie w ere aroused there, and they
sim p ly provoked the w orkers, w ho fell in to the
trap and w ere slaughtered, I h ope the
A u stralian w o rke r w ill learn m uch fro m this
le s s o n .” L e n in c o n tin u e d ‘ ‘A u s tr a lia is
im p o rta n t because we all know it as the land of
b o u rg e o is p o litic a l e xp e rim e n ts if a su c c e s s fu l
so c ia lis t re vo lu tio n was ca rrie d o u t there, that
w ould be the last straw o f the L a bor B o urgeois
P o liticia n smashed. N ot o n ly this, but it w ould
have a great s ig n ific a n c e in the Eastern and
W estern w o rld , m ore than even the Russian
R evolution I th in k had. B ut understand before
any e ffo rts are m ade to seize p o w e r th a t you
have the rig h t P S Y C H O LO G IC A L m om ent;
this is param ount. If we had had acted on the
6th o r the 8th o f Nov. we w o u ld have been
smashed but o u r tim e was rig h t, y o u r p o sition
is a d iffic u lt one but go ahead and convey to all
o u r com rades in A u stra lia and New Zealand
my best wishes. You have aw akened my
atte n tio n to fresh p ro b le m s in the W estern
w o rld and A u stra lia and I w ill n o tfo rg e tth e m . I
w ill get o u r party to give som e a tte n tio n to the
q u estion and get all the in fo rm a tio n I can w hile
I am re stin g .” The co n ve rsa tio n lasted nearly 2
hours and Lenin spoke w ith o u t a tra n s la to r, he
was very loathe to let us go b u t we saw he was
tirin g th e re fo re it was b etter to go. I m ig h t add
th a t we were am ong the very few w h o m Lenin
sent for, p ra c tic a lly no delegates saw him th is
year, he was o n ly one day at the C ongress and
then it was o n ly fo r an hour. The fo llo w in g day
the S unday the 2nd o f Dec., before I was up the
telephone rang and on g o in g to it, I fo u n d it
was th e S ecretary of Lenin asking w hen I was
go in g away, and not to go b efore co m in g to
see him again, th is I tried to do but it was not
possible because he had gone to th e c o u n try
fo ra fe w d a y s . L e n in th o u g h not w ell is fa rfro m
being dead, his brain is as cle a r as b e fore and
the on ly diffe re n ce I saw in him was th a t he was
a little m ore patient than pre vio u sly, b u t this
c o u ld be accounted fo r in th e fa c t th a t on th is
occasion I was speaking to him o ff d u ty and in
his ow n room not his o ffic e .
W.P. EARSM AN