Brian Timoney’s World of Acting Show
Episode 35: The death of classical stage acting training
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Brian: Hi everyone, it’s Brian here. Welcome onto today’s show – and I’m joined by
Joe. Welcome, Joe.
Joe: Thank you very much for having me.
Brian: It’s always a pleasure, Joe, always.
Joe: Thank you.
Brian: Now. Joe, we’re going to talk about – well, there’s going to be a bit of a fight
now…
Joe: Yes!
Brian: You know like in Harry Hill, when he goes, ‘Fight!’
Joe: ‘Fight!’ Yes!
Brian: Now, the fight is going to be between classical stage acting…
Joe: ‘In the left corner!’
Brian: Yes [laughs] – and modern screen acting.
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Joe: ‘In the right corner!’
Brian: Exactly! And who knows who’s going to win.
Joe: Yes.
Brian: But, anyway, I’ve got this theory: I actually think, to some extent, that
classical stage acting is dying out – not a situation that anybody would want,
because there’s a lot of great classical theatre – and actually we probably need to
define what classical is.
Joe: Yes – let’s try and help everybody define what that means.
Brian: Because when I’m saying classical, I’m talking more about not modern as in
probably not in the last 100 years – you know, a play that hasn’t run in the last 100
years. And we’re talking about things like Restoration comedy; I hate to say it as
well, but even Shakespeare, Molière – you know, all of these…
Joe: Jacobeans…
Brian: Jacobean tragedy, yes. So, all of this – Greek tragedy as well. Now, it’s not
to say these things aren’t done, but if you were to measure, in today’s industry, the
amount of those kind of projects that are cast against modern-day and contemporary
text, we find that they probably make up less than one percent of everything being
cast.
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Joe: Wow! Yes.
Brian: To be honest, Joe, it’s kind of a figure I pulled out of mid-air really; I haven’t
actually trawled through The Radio Times and – you know, but if you use your
common sense, you can look at what is on the TV and what percentage of it is
classical work/what percentage of it is modern work – and it doesn’t take a brain
surgeon to work out that the vast, vast majority is modern. So, that’s the classical bit.
Now, the screen vs. theatre thing as well is interesting, so just to quantify that a little
bit: so, we’ve got stage work, theatre work. Now, it’s fair to say that over the last –
certainly since I’ve come into the industry and probably before, but over the last
20/30 years, we’ve seen a steady decline of theatre. It used to be, back in the day –
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and I’m talking probably about 30 years ago now – that Repertory theatre was very
common in the UK…
Joe: Yes.
Brian: …and for people listening, Repertory theatre – I mean, actually, it says
something, Joe, that I have to explain what Repertory theatre is…
Joe: Yes, what it actually is, yes.
Brian: …because it tells us that actually it’s not as common as it once was. And it
basically was that actors used to go and be part of a company and they would
rehearse a play during the day, perform one at night…
Joe: Yes – rehearse a different play during the day and present a different play
during the night: the play that was running. And those plays would concurrently
swap, so you might be doing the same play for a week or two, or you might be doing
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday one play; Thursday, Friday another, then Saturday,
Sunday, Monday. So it would be just in a continuation, but you might have a bigger
role in one production and a smaller role in another, and you might play diverse
characters within that. So that really stood you up for a great piece of training.
Brian: Yes, it was great for acting. But it steadily and slowly died off. And if we look
at the amount of theatre versus screen acting – and when I’m saying screen acting,
I’m even talking about online now, because with the advent of YouTube…
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Joe: YouTube and Vimeo and all these outlets, and Netflix and all of that – yes.
Brian: Yes – Netflix, Amazon; we are seeing a deluge of screen work; the vast
majority is on screen. Now, I’m not making any judgments about these things,
because I actually like both – I like stage work and I like screen work when it’s done
well – but you have to look at the industry the way it is and be smart about where
you’re going to place your bets because, you know, if I was coming into the industry
right now, would I say that a classical stage training would be important? And the
answer, based on that information, is no.
Joe: No.
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Brian: I’d say that what is really important is that you are able to give a really
convincing, in-depth performance on screen, because that’s where all the action’s at
and it’s probably where you’re going to get your first break these days, rather than
theatre. And when I’m talking about theatre, I’m talking about proper paid theatre –
I’m not talking about fringe and experimental.
Joe: Yes; we’re not talking about any sort of fringe or any sort of like clubbing
together some kind of semi amateur dramatics thing with some professionals. I’m not
saying there’s anything wrong with amateur – you know, everybody is entitled to
perform and be in things that they want to be in and they can go and do whatever
they like. In terms of being a true professional, the likelihood is so small that you’re
going to come in and do a play, it’s so small right now, as the world is right now, that
I’d have to seriously consider, ‘Where would I go when I come out of a school of
acting? And where would I need to put my attention? And how much would knowing
Restoration help me?’ I mean, it’s really like an ancient language; it’s like studying, I
don't know, Phoenician - it’s all really for the elite and for the universities.
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Brian: I think that is a good comparison actually, Joe, because if you went to
university and you were looking at what you were going to study, you could go and
study the classics, as in Greek philosophy – and, cool, great – but, at the end of the
day, where are you going to use that in modern life, in modern-day work
environments?
Joe: Yes.
Brian: It’s the same with acting: really what you want to focus on is where you can
get a great screen performance and modern text, predominantly.
Joe: Predominantly.
Brian: And it’s not to say you don’t look at the classics – I’m not saying that – and
there’s a lot of classics I would term as modern classics; e.g. Arthur Miller,
Tennessee Williams – all of these guys are brilliant.
Joe: Yes. Strindberg, Chekhov – all of that. We still put those in modern context, so
just be aware. But even then, you’re still looking at where would you fit into that right
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now? I feel like it’s the reverse that’s happening now; it’s like you should need to be
able to or you really need to be able to come out being able to work on screen
straight away, and knowing that you can do that. And then, really – and this is like
I’m putting myself up to be shot down, here – but then, as you’re working on the
screen (and you probably get financially rewarded for that, more than likely, than you
would any fringe theatre), so you’re going to get rewarded for that – and therefore
you can then start to study these kind of other techniques and classics and then
bring that to the table. Because ultimately, if anybody is going to cast you in a
Restoration play, there is so much research that’s going to need to be done that
what’s the likelihood of you being cast in that? You know, it’s so far from my
understanding of things in terms of like actually being a working actor, actually
saying, ‘Look; when Restoration plays were around, that was a working actor’s job,
was to do a Restoration play.’ Do you know what I mean?
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Brian: Yes.
Joe: They weren’t doing classics; they weren’t like, ‘I’m doing a classic.’ No. ‘I’m
doing Restoration.’ When Shakespeare was around, it’s like, ‘I’m just doing a play.
I’m an actor and I’m doing a play. I’ll do a contemporary play. Shakespeare is my
writer…’ or the other guy, he’s contemporary – the one they always say wrote
Shakespeare’s plays. It’s slipped my mind. It’ll come to me.
Brian: Marlowe.
Joe: Yes – Christopher Marlowe. It’s like, look – they were contemporary at their
time.
Brian: That’s a really good point there. But right now – then, in Shakespeare’s day,
Shakespeare was a modern writer.
Joe: Yes – he was a modern writer!
Brian: And the vast majority would have been like Shakespeare’s plays –
Shakespeare, Marlowe, all of them – they were the modern playwrights of the day
and that’s what was getting done.
Joe: Yes.
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Brian: It’d be interesting to know how, back then, how many people were doing
Greek tragedy!
Joe: Exactly!
Brian: It’d probably be a small amount.
Joe: Yes – it’d be less than our percentage now, probably, you know? So, in terms
of like this classic against contemporary or modern, it also, what it does is it makes it
sort of seem elitist as well the classic sort of seems like, ‘Well, if you don’t study this,
you can’t really become a great actor.’ Well, it’s not true, because great actors,
through the process of doing, became great. You know, Mark Rylance didn’t come
out of actors’ school and went (well, he probably did actually [laughs] – I don't know
that; I’d better check up on my history!) but Mark Rylance didn’t become the great
actor that he is – over a process of time he got more and more skilled and his parts
got bigger and he became a lead actor, you know? So, in terms of that, it’s like
you’ve got to start where you are. You know, it’s like don’t be afraid to start right now
in contemporary, in modern.
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Brian: The thing is as well, you know, I spoke to a casting director not so long ago
and they said that one of the issues they have in the UK is because there’s a lot of
actors that are classically trained and they come out of drama school, and then they
go on to audition for a part in a film or some TV project, and they said that actually
(and this is true, this is a big casting director in this country was saying this) saying
that they kind of noticed that it usually took about a two-year period for those
classically trained actors to tone their performance down to a level that was
appropriate for TV and film.
Joe: Yes.
Brian: Now, I think that is a real issue because it’s a misalignment with what the
industry wants and actually what is happening in some schools.
Joe: Yes. I think it’s important because you should be able to come out and go,
‘Look – this is a film media. This is a film medium. I’m going through a different
process. I need to be able to make the adjustment to know what I’m actually in. I
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know that I’m in a small room with a cameraman, two cameras; I’ve got a small,
intimate scene.’ You know, you can see the actors who have struggled from classic
into contemporary. You can see that. And some don’t make that transition. You
know, I’m not going to name names, but there are many fine, classic-trained actors
that their TV work I think is abysmal, I really do! I think, ‘That’s really, really poor.’
Brian: You know what I notice; sometimes what happens is that those actors are
being told to do less…
Joe: Yes.
Brian: And the problem is that great screen acting isn’t about doing nothing; it’s a
different sort of way of approaching the process.
Joe: Absolutely.
Brian: And when you watch a brilliant screen actor, they are as nuanced and as
detailed and as skilled as any classically trained stage actor. It’s a different medium
– and so they’re approaching it as such. And I think that you’re right; there is
sometimes an elitist thing that goes on – it’s like, ‘Oh, I’m a classical-trained actor, so
therefore TV and film is beneath that stage, that sort of classical stage acting.’ But
actually that is to really belittle the medium, because when you watch people like
Brando and Pacino and Philip Seymour Hoffman, it’s like you watch that level of
working detail that is going into that sort of work – it’s amazing.
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Joe: It is amazing. And who’s to say that when you work in a modern, methodical
way, with modern text, your approach will be as precise as any classic-trained actor
– and you can take your approach, the way that you’ve trained in modern technique,
and apply that to the classics. And all you’d really – you’re just moving/shifting your
energy into a different medium: theatre.
Brian: Yes.
Joe: I mean, I don't know – perhaps I’m just being the devil’s advocate or something
like that, but who’s to say that a really, really well-written piece of EastEnders – and
I’m not joking, a really well-written piece like, say, by Tony Jordan who wrote that
one episode that comes to mind where June Brown/Dot Cotton does the whole
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episode as a monologue – what’s to say that that isn’t a piece that is equal to a
soliloquy of Shakespeare or Marlowe or Restoration? It has equal importance. You
technically have to be a very, very fine actor to be able to do that – hence it was
given to June Brown, to Dot Cotton, because she was probably the only one in that
milieu who could actually hold the technique of sustaining that performance.
Brian: You’re right; things like EastEnders and Coronation Street are the modernday Shakespeare.
Joe: They are, they are!
Brian: Because people forget that, in Shakespeare’s day, Shakespeare was
commenting on modern-day life that was real to them then.
Joe: Modern-day life, yes.
Brian: And of course made an absolutely unbelievable text – but in today’s culture
and everything, you’re right, it’s like these are modern-day versions. It’s different but
it’s the same idea behind it. So, yes, I think that’s important and I think that, at the
end of the day, for actors coming into the profession, I would really recommend that
you look at it taking care of what is needed in the industry, first and foremost.
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Joe: Yes.
Brian: I remember when I first came into acting – you know, sometimes you have
romantic notions as well behind it, and you’re going to do some Shakespeare plays
and you’re going to do Molière, you know – which is nice, if you want to do that. But
the reality is, to work in this industry and what is being done now isn’t that. So you
have to make sure that you’ve got that covered before you think about anything else.
Joe: That's right.
Brian: Which is why we do The Method, isn’t it, Joe? Because it’s like, for my
money, the reason that Method Acting became so popular and still is used by many
of the top actors is that when you’re working on camera, that camera can be inches
from your face, and it’s showing that internal life, that internal journey…
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Joe: Absolutely.
Brian: …which is very different from working on a classical piece of stage work.
Joe: Yes – and yet let’s put the devil in the detail – and yet why don’t you guys go
and watch Marlon Brando play Mark Antony…
Brian: Yes! Yes!
Joe: …in Julius Caesar, and watch his performance against the classic actors of
their time. I may be mistaken here, but I think it’s John Gielgud – when John Gielgud
heard Marlon Brando’s interpretation of the speech of Mark Antony, because he
taped it and sent it to him as a casting, to say, ‘Look – I can do this,’ he was aghast.
He was like, ‘Oh, my God – this is a really subtle, powerful performance.’
And, believe it or not – I may be misdirecting myself – but I believe it was filmed in
America and the crew were American crew, and when Marlon Brando did the speech
of Mark Anthony’s about Julius Caesar, they were stunned like at the power of this
guy’s acting. They thought he was just, you know, a mumbler, like all that rubbish
that we hear that’s not true – right? And there he was, moving crews – you know
how tough they are…
Brian: Toughest audience.
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Joe: Yes – toughest audience. And he apparently got some standing ovations from
them because they adored what he did.
Brian: Well, actually you’re bringing up an interesting point here: The Method being
used in classical pieces – which I’ve always believed is probably more powerful than
just the classical training, because it’s more than the voice; it’s more than text
interpretation. What Brando did in that speech was he brought subtext.
Joe: Yes.
Brian: And, interestingly enough, doing that role was one of the speeches where
Shakespeare did write in quite a bit of subtext, where sometimes, because it’s
soliloquy often, it’s spoken out. And in that there was a lot of subtlety and subtext,
and Brando had that skill of being able to work in the myth and bringing all that out
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within it. I’ve often said that it’s like it’s great to watch Method actors doing classical
work because actually they bring a quality to it that is often missed.
Joe: Yes, that is often missed – that has the deep, subtle – I mean, even if you take
Daniel Day-Lewis in Lincoln, the writing is actually quite classical because these are
speeches that they know of and that they’ve sort of doctored and adapted, and they
know that he sort of said these things or something like that, so he was also doing a
classic way of speaking, but yet he brought such contemporary attitude to it, you
know?
Brian: Yes.
Joe: And it’s there; it’s there for the taking. It’s really there for the taking, yes.
Brian: So, there we go, Joe. I think that brings us to our conclusion on that one.
Joe: Yes.
Brian: I don't know who won that fight but…
Joe: Yes – who knows?
Brian: Maybe we’ll find out in the next one.
Joe: It’s just lots to think about, guys.
Brian: Yes, indeed. Okay – see you on the next one!
You’ve been listening to Brian Timoney’s World of Acting. For a full transcript of
today’s show, go to www.worldofacting.com. We’ll see you next time.
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