University of Central Oklahoma Oral History Project
Archives and Special Collections
100 North University Drive
Edmond, OK 73034
Interviewee:
Alfred Alexander “Jack” Drummond
Interviewer:
Date:
Location of Interview:
Terry Hammons
May, 1979, Tape 1
Transcribed by:
Kayla Coffey
AD:
TH:
A.A. Drummond
Terry Hammons
TH: The first thing that I would like to ask you about is to explain to me split loan. Here’s what
I’m curious about, I don’t quite understand what a split loan is. In 1932 the Stockyard Loan
Company maintain steer loans in your name and made you transfer the cow loan to the National
Livestock Credit Corporation in order to avoid a split loan. I don’t quite follow what that is.
AD: Well, a split loan is where one cowman has loans in two different banks. A bank wants all
of the business of that individual and the reason for that is when you sell the cattle that all the
proceeds goes to bank and they don’t go to the individual. They send… as long as they have a
mortgage on cattle. When the cattle are sold on the market they commission company that sells
the cattle sends the proceeds, less the pasture bill and the freight bill if it’s arranged the way I did
with the San Antonio Cattle Loan Company. But, when they have a split loan, the proceeds from
the cattle that are mortgaged at one bank might go to the other bank. That’s what happened in the
Jesse Moore. You see, Jesse Moore at Sulphur, was supposed to have his loans at the Stockyard
Loan Company.
TH: Jesse Moore mortgaged the same cattle twice, though. Didn’t he?
AD: Yes.
TH: In your case you are talking about a steer loan and a cow loan. So, those aren’t the same
cattle.
AD: No, no, no. I’m just trying to…he had mortgages-he was supposed to not have any cattle
loans except with the Stockyard Loan Company. But, if he hadn’t that was crookedness. If he
hadn’t mortgaged them, he had mortgaged cattle. He had a split deal without the knowledge of
either the First National Bank in Oklahoma City or The Stockyard Loan Company. Whether he
had mortgaged the different cattle to the two banks that would be a split loan; he would be
splitting his business between two banks.
TH: Uh-huh.
AD: Of course he went further, he mortgaged the same cattle to two banks, but they didn’t know
that he had. They each thought that they were his only banker. Of course, that’s what brought
about that big lawsuit. But he approved, he requested that I move the cows to Oklahoma City
because we were making loan from three to five years. He could only make a loan for six
months. He could make loan, but he usually made a loan on steers for the market season and he
could easily sell that on commercial paper. But the banks in the east didn’t like to buy cow paper,
they wanted steer paper. The Stockyard Loan Company or Milton Freeland approved the split
loan. No, we made the loan at Oklahoma City in George Smith’s name, so it would not be a split
loan. It wasn’t in my—it was in my name in Kansas City.
TH: The steers were?
AD: And the cows were.
TH: Yeah, right.
AD: All the paper, all the notes in Kansas City, in the Stockyard Loan Company were in my
name. But it was hard for him to sell the cow paper. It’s easy for him to sell the steer paper. So,
Milton to move the cows to Oklahoma City; when I did they wanted to make the note, Oklahoma
City did, in George Smith’s name. Well, we had it my name in Kansas City and we were partners
on those Cross L cows. So, we made it in George’s name. That’s the first time. He was just
working for me for $75 a month, he had no credit. He was using my credit, then when he moved
to Oklahoma City to put the cow loans—to satisfy me on Freeland then I had to deed him land so
that he had a home for the credit and that he had a financial statement that would justify that loan
with the Oklahoma Livestock Market Association. Which was sold to the Federal Intermediate
Credit Bank at Wichita, see? So, we had to have note for either three or five years at a low rate of
interest.
TH: I think I follow that now, ok.
AD: But a split loan means having a loan in the same man’s name in two different banks.
TH: Two different banks, ok.
AD: That’s what got me started with this trouble because when I got out of the Stockyard Loan
Company with Oklahoma Livestock Market Association for two reasons: they said I was a
director and they would have to make the loan in George Smith’s name, it was easy to do that
then. It forced me to put land in his name and as a loan for the cattle. I believe maybe a five year
loan, maybe a three year loan. The cattle could be cared for, for the term of the loan.
TH: By the beginning of 1932, the Oklahoma Livestock Marketing Association was fully set up.
Then you became very active after the first year of 1932, in setting up the—
AD: National Livestock Credit Corporation?
TH: Yeah, right. Well—
AD: And the National Commission Company.
TH: By that summer I find from the court testimony that you began to fight to fight with Lucas
and Lohman and Mr. Wilson in Chicago.
AD: Yeah.
TH: Over whether or not directors could make loans from the company. You testified that you
began to argue that they should not make loans from the company and that the other officers
wanted to make loans. That this was one of the reasons that you began to drift apart and that—
AD: No, you just got it wrong. I could see no reason why we shouldn’t as a director. They said
that they could not loan to me as a director. The director could not make loans direct from The
National Livestock Credit Corporation. That was just a rule of thumb, of course I thought it was
about security; it made no difference later it didn’t, they all made loans. Lucas, you know, he
used a commission company, and I mean their finance arm. He was the manager of first the
Oklahoma livestock market association, and later the national credit corporation. They had a big
loss. He went to Europe and he was in Europe when that loss was sustained. They warned him.
He always denied having any interest in it. It was generally known that he did have. I don’t want
to say it; I don’t want to quote a rumor. But, that’s a, I know that’s a fact. He nearly lost his job.
TH: Ok then. The facts of the situation are that you felt the director could make a loan if he had
the security.
AD: That’s it.
TH: Lucas and Lohman and the rest of them said no, that you could not make a loan.
AD: That’s right. Therefore to make a cow loan, it had to be made in the name of George Smith.
TH: Ok, alright. Now, I’m finding that in 1932, 1931 and [19]32 you transferred a lot of loans
from the Stockyard Loan Company to the National Livestock Credit Corporation. Not just the
cow loans, was that was just one of several loans?
AD: No, no, no I never did that. I never transferred any loans from the Stockyard Loan Company
to the National Livestock Credit Corporation. I never borrowed any money from the National
Livestock Credit Corporation. No, I never did, Terry.
TH: The papers I have show that … let me see now. You had a loan with Corbin in Donaldson’s
name at the Stockyard Loan Company and you transferred all those Corbin cattle in 1929, 1930,
and 1931. You had several thousand head. You transferred theme into other partnerships; some
of them to a partnership with Gentner, some of them to a partnership with Cecil, some of them to
a partnership with John Hood. You got loans from the National Livestock Credit Corporation.
AD: I don’t … Gentner Drummond never had any loans except the Stockyard Loan Company. I
sold Corbin cattle. I sold Corbin 1,500 steers to Gentner Drummond. But the Stockyard Loan
Company retained the loan and any loan, any cattle that I sold to Cecil Drummond he retained
the loan. The John Hood cattle, the John Hood cattle that came up there; he had good credit and I
just grazed the John Hood cattle. Let’s see, if he had any cattle then the John Hood cattle would
have been in my name in Kansas City. I don’t remember—John Hood was a solid ongoing deal.
He had this good ranch that this lawyer Gray owns. It’s one of the best ranches in Southern
Oklahoma.
TH: What I’m curious about is that in the 1930-[19]32 periods the Stockyard Loan Company
was putting an awful lot of pressure on you to pay up loans.
AD: Yeah, that’s right.
TH: In 1929 you owed them half a million dollars almost.
AD: How much?
TH: Half a million.
AD: I probably owed them more than that.
TH: Well, the documents I have say it was half a million and what I think was happening. What
I don’t know, which you have to confirm for me is that you were shifting the loans so that you
could put of paying them. You could not pay them off because you couldn’t sell the cattle
without taking a heavy loss. So… you then transfer the loans from the Stockyard Loan Company
to the National Livestock Credit Corporation—
AD: No, I did not do that. I didn’t. What I did was when the Stockyard Loan Company put
pressure on me to liquidate the Corbin cattle I wanted to do that because he had already taken our
money and bought that furniture in that house.
TH: Yeah.
AD: But I did sell the cattle to my brothers. The Stockyard Loan Company carried them, because
Gentner Drummond sustained a loss. They bought them, the Stockyard Loan Company was
pressuring me to liquidate my line, see? To lower the amount, they figured I was too extended.
So, I used my brothers. Well, I didn’t go into—I never had a credit—they didn’t like me. They
were jealous of me. I had nearly single handed set up the Oklahoma Livestock Mortgage
Association. I had to have 500 bonafide farmers and ranchers that $1 share and they had to sign
up for it. It had to be proven to Mr. Wilson, he represented the National. Then you see, I had to
take stock along the Oklahoma Farmers Stockman to provide the credit for the National
Livestock Credit Corporation. They had to have $10,000 credit. The Oklahoma Livestock
Mortgage Association just had to have $500. For that $500 we got $1,000,000 free credit. That’s
at the Federal Intermediate Credit Bank. Then in Chicago, I think they gave the Oklahoma
Livestock Association some sort of credit, maybe another $1,000,000. I don’t know about those
details. But then I do know that, I still have $3,500 worth of this stock. It’s in this trust in the
Liberty National Bank in Jim Drummond’s insurance. See, I had to provide the money to pay the
insurance premium and I used that as part of the income and they own that. They get … it’s 7%
preferred stock. I think that I had $6,000. I believe that I got the $6,000 from Cecil Drummond in
that deal someway. I forgot when we had our settlement to give me that stock back. So, he’s
giving it someone in the family. No, no. I never borrowed any money from the National
Livestock Credit Corporation.
TH: Except for the cow loan?
AD: Huh?
TH: Except for the cow loan?
AD: Wait now—
TH: That was in George Smith’s name.
AD: Yeah, yes, that was from the Oklahoma Livestock Market Association. That was a prerunner but that Association is separate apart and there are really three things there. One is the
Oklahoma Livestock Marketing Association. The other is the National Livestock Commission
Company and the other is the National Livestock Credit Corporation. One would sell the cattle
and that one is the Oklahoma Market Association; it’s supposed to be the father of all three of
them. The National Livestock Corporation, which is now a co-operative and is now… it would
be nice to get property statement. It’s a multimillion dollar deal now.
TH: They loan money and the commission company sells the cattle—
AD: That’s it.
TH: And they are both organized under the Oklahoma Livestock Market Association.
AD: That was a parent.
TH: Alright then, let me ask you this. According to the papers I have, it seems like you were
able to make pasture contracts in Texas in 1932 on the proviso that once the cattle came into
Oklahoma you could get loans on them through the National Lvestock Credit Corporation, is that
correct? You were able to get cattleman to pasture because you could get them loans thought The
National.
AD: Well, yeah. I did get them loans—
TH: But they were in their names?
AD: Yes, but I’ll say that I never had much influence. I put Lucas in there, you know?
TH: Uh-huh.
AD: And he’s done just like Jim Drummond, once he got in there. I started on a salary of $150 a
month. I made the motion and upped it to $200. Then I was boosting him up. He was the backer
of George Smith in this litigation. I don’t know why, he became an enemy, Lucas did. I never
was…they would do anything for George Smith; they backed him through all that fight against
me. I sued them for that $432,000. I sued them for double that, see? It was around $1,000,000,
which I lost in the Federal Court in Tulsa. I never had any influence with them. But I did have
influence with the Stockyard Loan Company. They didn’t ever just turn me down—
TH: Uh-huh.
AD: on steers. Where their credit is justified you want to be sure to understand that. I could get
them loans on cattle that are the way I did on Corbin- I mean on M.O. Cardin. When I got him
that $100 loan on those 1,800 steers and then they dropped. I lost $50,000 on him, but I could get
him a loan and with the Stockyard Loan Company they made me endorse it. But if their credit
justified I could get the loans when the cattle moved to Oklahoma.
TH: You did not endorse any federal loans with the National Livestock Corporation?
AD: No.
TH: Because there was a period there where I found an awful lot letters, from 1932 particularly,
where you were trying to get a Ben Alexander loan through the National Livestock Credit
Association. A Cardin loan, a Hood loan—
AD: But, I never got them.
TH: You never got them, but you tried and didn’t get them?
AD: Yeah.
TH: Ok, then that makes that clear. What it looked like was that you were transferring every
loan you could; that you were shifting your partnerships around and taking cattle that were
owned by Drummond and Cardin and shifting them over to Drummond and Drummond. You
and Cecil were shifting cattle that you owned with a partnership to a second partnership in order
to get new loans.
AD: No, we never had to shift. Cecil and I had a partnership with cattle. But that was always
well—we did, I did have a line of credit with the First National Bank in Oklahoma City with
Peter. I borrowed several, maybe a couple hundred thousand dollars on cattle there. I was well
acquainted with him and I always paid those. I good credit with the First National in Tulsa; they
called on me when Jesse Moore, after he had this double mortgage deal and he went up there to
get a loan and I told them about this double mortgage and they turned him down. Then the
Exchange National Bank, which Chapman and _________ were directors. They took on the
Jesse Moore loan and when they checked the cattle they saw immediately that he was double
mortgaging cattle and they send all the cattle to the Chapman ____ in the Osage. That ended, that
ended, that ended—
TH: Jesse Moore?
AD: That ended Jesse Moore. Then the First National Bank in Oklahoma City, my friend ___
Dodd warned all the time about him. They sued the bank, the Stockyard Loan Company in
Federal Court in Kansas City. I took Bill Corbin to Cowboy’s up there. Won that lawsuit of a
couple hundred thousand dollars from the Stockyard Loan Company against the First National.
They fired Teeter and they just demolished the … Teeter owned the Hale’s building in
Oklahoma City. The bank had owned that and then – Hale’s used to be a director in it, he used to
be a rich oil man. Then they forced him to take that and then they bought him out. The bank just
kicked him out over the Jesse Moore deal.
TH: Let me get this straight now, what you are saying is that you tried to transfer loans to the
National Livestock Credit Corporation—
AD: I discussed.
TH: You discussed it, but they didn’t let you because they said a director couldn’t take loans?
AD: No. I was not an owner in those cattle. If I was trying to get pasture cattle … I might have
consulted with them about making loans on cattle in the name of these Texas people. But I
wasn’t endorsing them. If their credit justified they would consider them. I never did, they
entered into my business and they never helped me at anyway at all. The only help I ever got was
from the Stockyard Loan Company and the Credit—of course, I did use. I had a good credit until
that newspaper— yeah. With the First National Bank in Tulsa and the First National Bank in
Oklahoma City, that’s because I knew cattle loan officers and they knew me. They trusted, they
trusted my judgment and they trusted my cattle ability. I had … I always had security in cattle.
TH: Wanna make sure the tape doesn’t run out. Good. Ok, now—
AD: No—
TH: The cattle loan was made through the National Livestock Credit Corporation however.
That’s what the papers say—
AD: Alright.
TH: That one was made and you tried to make others but you didn’t. Ok, now that’s clear. That
would have been a big error; I thought that you had transferred most of your loans.
AD: No.
TH: Ok.
AD: They were my open, they were hypocrites. To my face they were friends, to my back they
were my enemies; the National Livestock Credit Corporation.
TH: Ok, uh…. then there’s no—you mentioned to me one time there was talk in the early days
that whole Oklahoma Livestock Marketing Association was simply a great big Jack Drummond
front. That the whole thing was set up to help you.
AD: Well, that’s not so.
TH: I can see that now. But it looked like that was the case if—
AD: No.
TH: If you had transferred so many loans—
AD: No.
TH: But you didn’t transfer them. It’s not—
AD: No, that was a patriotic effort to save the cowherds in all the state of Oklahoma. They were
selling their cows at $10 a head. Cattle were very, very cheap; as cheap as they’ve ever been.
The banks didn’t wanted want any cattle loans. They had to have, just like the Stockyard Loan
Company that had our steer loans for years until they liquidated. They went right through this
litigation with me, side by side. Their lawyer was beside my lawyer the whole time. But, they …
I don’t know how to say it. They were such hypocrites… Lucas himself, they did everything they
could to harm me and never helped me. Even after they gloated when I lost that $92,000 and it
came out in the papers. They all quit me except for the Stockyard Loan Company. They never
did. They went through the trial with me; you’ll see when you get there. Their lawyers were right
beside my lawyers the whole trial. Both trials. We paid them all. They furnished me money to
fight this—it was really a fight between the Stockyard Loan Company and the National
Livestock Credit Corporation. Evidently it was in the name of Smith, but they could get
unlimited funds to fight me with. Also, they couldn’t whip the Livestock Loan Company because
they were backing me too. The Stockyard Loan Company backed me when Cecil and Gentner
Drummond would not. They never did. Uh-huh. Not one dollar.
TH: Ok, let me see how much tape is going here. Let me ask you one quick question here—
AD: Alright.
TH: In 1932, right after the robbery you owed the Hominy Bank some little piddly note—
AD: About $6,000.
TH: Right. Now, because of that in the papers it says that Gentner and you deed the Phil Reeve
Land and the Pope Land to Cecil.
AD: That’s right.
TH: How would deeding land to Cecil cover a note in the Hominy bank?
AD: Well, Gentner was Vice-President of the bank and I think we owned a control of the bank
and Cecil was holding that in trust for me. I sold 160 acres of land included in that for $10 an
acre. That had 16 oil wells on it, the Burbank Field. I sold it to Sinclair Oil Company, I got that
$1,600 and applied it on that $6,000 note at the bank and then I got a loan from the Federal Land
Bank on this land down at—
TH: Folkland.
AD: Folkland and paid off the rest of it. So, then… that gave me time to pay that $6,000. They
were afraid that—Gentner Drummond was afraid that … I had been in the bank you see? He was
afraid that that publicity might hurt the bank some way or another. He was afraid that they might
connect that $92,000 with me having money out of the bank. What I did… that $92,000 was all
my money. That cleaned me, see? I had a reserve fund in the First National Bank in Tulsa. I drew
that out; I drew out all the money in my ranch account. I was trying to get $100,000 to make this
oil deal. I came, but all they wanted was the money and then they just took it away from me.
They robbed me.
TH: Ok, then. In other words you put the 6,000 acres – not the 6,000 acres – but you put those
two pieces of land in Cecil’s name so that no what happened that land would be there to pay for
that loan.
AD: To protect, not to pay. To protect that loan and to just—
[Tape Break]
TH: Ok, after that 1932 robbery—
AD: Wait a minute let me – all this land was in the clear that I deeded to Cecil. Then I was going
to… I knew that I would sell this oil field, because we couldn’t rent it and we couldn’t use it and
I needed the money to apply on this land. Neither Cecil nor Gentner paid a dollar on that 6,000
dollars. I paid it with the sale of this land in the Burbank Oil Field and the loan, the Federal Land
Bank Loan in the name of Pope on the 1,200 acres down south of Hominy. I paid it with that
land, but the Phil Reed land was in the clear as well as the land on the lake and the Lattiamore
Ranch and other land. Cecil just – they knew it would be safe there and no matter what, I don’t
know how I might be involved otherwise, see? I think that – but the family was protecting the
land—
TH: From Creditors?
AD: Yeah. Well, just to protect the land.
TH: It was always after the robbery, after the—
AD: I didn’t owe anybody, except the Stockyard Loan Company.
TH: There was all that Scandal and the Stockyard Loan Company—
AD: Were my friends.
TH: In the spring of 1932 they were demanding a $50,000 mortgage on your land. What I was
wondering is—
AD: Yeah, yeah.
TH: Around the time of the robbery it seems like you transferred an awful lot of land into other
people’s names.
AD: Only to my wife.
TH: Well, you put 4,000 acres into George Smith’s name?
AD: Oh, yeah. But that was for protection and Milton Freeland knew all about that.
TH: Right, you put … I’m not sure how many acres into the wife’s name; either 7,000 or 9,000.
AD: Alright, those are the only two.
TH: Then you put land in Cecil’s name.
AD: Alright those three.
TH: That took care of almost all of your land in someone else’s name by the end of 1932.
AD: That’s right it did.
TH: What I’m asking is one of the reasons for that to protect the land from creditors, since you
were in trouble and you had this great big loss and you had debts to the Stockyard Loan
Company. Was one of the—
AD: Then I gave them a mortgage. The only mortgage I ever gave on land, except for the
Federal Land Bank. I could not get a loan from the Federal Land Bank because at that time—
TH: Minerals—
AD: They did not loan on land in Osage County because of the mineral reservation of the Osage
Tribe. They could have surface only. The Federal Land Bank required that they have a part of the
minerals with the surface. Therefore I could not get the $50,000 loan at that time from the
Federal Land Bank.
TH: Uh-huh. So you had to take a mortgage from the Stockyard Loan Company.
AD: I had the mortgage; I had to mortgage 5,000 acres. That was after I had made this…the first
deed that I made was to my wife—
TH: In February 1932.
AD: Because she said that I was going to get killed in a car wreck and that she wanted, I believe
that it was 9,000 acres because part of that was in her name and I mortgaged the Stockyard Loan
Company. But she said that I was going to get killed in a car wreck and she wanted something in
her name in order to protect her and little Madeline in case of my death. So that she would have
something to live on. That’s why I made that and she was not to record that deed unless I was
killed. She recorded that deed unknown to me. The minute she got that deed she went and filed it
one record.
TH: Ok, now. That’s something else that I want to ask. In October of 1932, just before you went
east or had all the money stolen—
AD: Yeah.
TH: In October of [19]32 you deeded or signed leases for all the land north of the highway over
to George Smith—
AD: Yeah.
TH: And all the land south of the highway over to Burt Quimby.
AD: Yeah.
TH: At the same time you had Madeline sign a lease for her 9,000 acres at $.50 an acre to
George Smith.
AD: That’s right.
TH: Ok, now. Evidently if she deeded the land over the land was in her name.
AD: Yeah.
TH: Right?
AD: Yeah. She didn’t deed over at that time, George Smith paid her $200 a month on that lease,
don’t you see, for $.50 an acre. That land was really to protect the cow loan, see? George Smith
was the same as me and he owed me a couple of hundred thousand dollars on previous steer loss.
So, I was really operating in…I was operating that ranch to protect the cow loan and to protect
the income we would get from grazing, the future and present grazing leases.
TH: My question is… if Madeline, when you gave her that trust of 9,000 acres, supposedly the
land remained in your name, right?
AD: Yeah.
TH: Right.
AD: She was not to record the deed.
TH: But she did record the deed?
AD: Yeah, unknown to me.
TH: Well, if it was unknown to you how come she had to sign the lease agreement to George
Smith? If the land wasn’t in her name legally—
AD: It wasn’t in her name. She recorded it—
TH: Right, right. If she recorded it then you knew about it because she had to sign the lease over
to Smith.
AD: Yeah.
TH: If she had not recorded it—
AD: Yeah—
TH: Then you would have signed?
AD: Yeah, I knew. I did know that it’s when she made the contract to sell the land. That’s what I
didn’t know about.
TH: To Chip and Marnard?
AD: Yeah, that’s what I didn’t know about.
TH: Ok, that came around 1936 or [19]37? Ok, that’s clear now. Good, there’s so many of these
small points that I get confused with. I don’t know what’s happening.
AD: Ok, what was your question and what was my answer?
TH: Alright, what I wanted to know was you told me that 9,000 acres that she put it in her name
secretly. My question is—
AD: No, no, no, no, no. I had to deed it to her because she wanted it, because if I was killed in a
car wreck she would have the land.
TH: She wasn’t supposed to put it on the record until you died?
AD: Yeah.
TH: But she put it on the record before you died and because it was recorded in her name in
Pawhuska.
AD: Yeah, I know that—
TH: Then when you wanted to lease the land to—
AD: Burt Quimby—
TH: George Smith?
AD: I mean George Smith.
TH: Then she had to sign it?
AD: Yeah?
TH: Ok. Then that’s clear. I want to ask; in 1929 I found a very unusual arrangement between
you and Cardin. Evidently and it’s very, very unclear the Stockyards Loan Company got very
angry with you because you loaned Cardin $80,000 to buy cattle from you? Do you recall that
deal?
AD: Well—
TH: And you wind up—
AD: Well, I’ll tell you. Monte Corder went to Martha, Texas and—
TH: And bought those yearlings?
AD: Bought those calves—
TH: Calves, ok.
AD: And we had to have a home for them. So, I sold them to M.O. Cardin and shipped them to
Madill on the present ranch, see, that we own. I’m pretty sure that I would continue those cattle
in the loan in my name. But Cardin was actually the owner and took possession of them. If it was
$80,000 then it is $80,000. That’s the only time that I recall where I had a hell of a time to take
care of those and he took all the heifers, see?
TH: Uh-huh.
AD: And the steers came to the Kyger Ranch, but Cardin said he could feed these heifers out and
he could buy oats and corn cheap down there at Madill—he said that it was farming country and
he had the only pastures. Just like we have right now; he had the big ranch there. So, now did I
have an argument with Milton Freeland over those?
TH: Yes, Freeland said that it was not illegal but incorrect for you to loan someone money to
buy your own cattle.
AD: oh, well that’s customary to sell cattle on credit. I’ve always done that.
TH: Out of that deal Cardin, M.O. Cardin wound up owing you $92,000. I think you deed on
590 acres of Cardin’s land at that time. Is that true?
AD: He might have wound up owing me money on that. He had taken bankruptcy and lost all
his…, he didn’t have any land. He was buying land in my name with the minerals.
TH: With the minerals, yeah.
AD: That’s what put me in Madill this very good day. But as land would come up after he’d
taken this bankruptcy he would buy the land from various owners under these pasture fences in
my name. He would continue to use them, either with cattle that he owned or cattle that he took
in to pasture from others. He never paid me any rent, but I paid the taxes.
TH: He had a partnership with someone named Dwyer for awhile that you took over. Did they
own land?
AD: No, no.
TH: Then you didn’t take over ant of M.O. Cardin land—
AD: No.
TH: At any point?
AD: No, I just took over—when he died I took over the pastures.
TH: Yeah, which he had been buying for you all along?
AD: It was all scattered land, it wasn’t any blocks of land, and it was just a little piece here and a
little dab there. By that time as near as I can remember it was about 2,000 acres.
TH: That he bought for you?
AD: Yeah.
TH: Ok.
AD: But Milton—when those heifers were sold—Milton got the proceeds from them, the
Stockyard Loan Company got the money. But I’m sure that maybe he would have wanted me to
get my money from some other bank in Cardin’s name. That was just like when they brought the
1,800 steers up there and I lost $50,000 on them. I thought those heifers would be making back
money. They couldn’t lose him $92,000. It might have increased his loss of $50,000 to $92,000.
TH: Well, the $92,000 figure comes from this; you had the $80,000 loan originally. Then there
was $12,000 of freight costs, feed, interest… so all together it totaled up to $92,000.
AD: I see. I had to pay the freight and all that?
TH: Uh-huh, but you were doing it for Cardin, because Cardin owed you money.
AD: Yeah, if there had been any profit he would have had to get the credit for the heifers when
they were sold against that $92,000. It wasn’t any increase. The $92,000 loss on my $50,000… I
was trying to make a profit on my $50,000, see?
TH: By giving him cattle to market with.
AD: Huh?
TH: By having him cattle to market with.
AD: Do what?
TH: By having cattle for him to raise and market.
AD: Yes, yes. Well, not raise. I bought them in… he didn’t raise them; they were raised in
Martha, Texas.
TH: They were born in Martha, Texas?
AD: Yes and shipped up there off their mommas.
TH: But then he kept them for a year?
AD: Not over a year. He kept them maybe for a winter and summer.
TH: Winter and summer, ok.
AD: Then we sold them the next summer. We just marketed them like we would a steer.
TH: Uh-huh. Just got rid of them as soon as possible?
AD: Yeah.
TH: You were trying to sell every animal you could sell by 1930, [19]31, and [19]32, right?
AD: Not sell, liquidate.
TH: Liquidate, yeah. You were trying to get rid of them?
AD: Yeah.
TH: Trying to get those—
AD: Trying to pay my loans, I was—Terry when I built my credit with those steers, just like
when I went up there with those ___ aged brown cattle. When fall comes the cattle are sold and
the loans are paid and I always had enough equity in the expenses or I got the profit to buy more
land with and the sale of cattle would eliminate any loss. That’s the way I built my whole
operation. Do you understand that? Steers would pay their note and if there was a loss I always
grazed two to the one I owned. So, that was my formula. There never was a time that I couldn’t
pay my note. That’s until 19… until the drastic drop and I got $10 a piece. That was difficult for
the cattle industry, just like right now. These cattle are selling at $900 a pair and calves at $1 a
pound. Steer calves we sold at a $1.05 and heifers at $.95. That’s as fantastic as going up as
when cattle were going at $10 a head going down.
TH: When they were down and you had the big burden of debt on them you got pretty
desperate?
AD: That’s right.
TH: You could either sell them or get rid of them. Liquidate them however you could. I thought
that one of the ways you were doing it was transferring the loan.
AD: I still would have the debt on them.
TH: But it would be a new debt and you would have one more year to pay it off.
AD: Oh, the Stockyard Loan Company would renew it and until the time they were ready to sell
I could always renew at the Stockyard Loan Company on steers—
TH: But not on cows?
AD: But not on cows because they could sell the steer loan, Terry. Sometimes they had to carry
the cow loan in their own, as cash on hand in their bank. They couldn’t sell the cow loan. They
got to where it was easier for them to sell it on their own capital. This was supplied by Arm and
Cutting A Packing Company. They wanted steer loans that they could sell and make a profit on
to pay their expenses and operate. You understand that?
TH: Yeah, now I do. Question here, I find reference that during 1930, [19]31 and [19]32 you
were involved in an oil deal in Southern Oklahoma. Do you recall—now I just found passing
mention of that in 1931 in your financial statement you listed a half interest in like 1,500 acres
with an oil well on it.
AD: Yeah, that may have been with Marvin Neff. Yeah, I remember. We drilled a well on
what’s now the Aylesworth Oil Field. But, we drilled a little shallow one; it was just 1,500 to
2,000 feet. He came up there with a bottle of oil that he had taken out of this well and then I went
down there with him and he showed I the well and he got oil out of it; he had a pipe in it you
see? He wanted - he either wanted to drill deeper or something. But I went in with Marvin Neff
in the oil business, that’s right.
TH: In 1931. Alright, who was Marvin Neff? Where did he come from?
AD: He was right there in Madill and his heirs are millionaires today.
TH: Was he an oil man or a cattle man?
AD: Yeah.
TH: He was both.
AD: Yeah, he was both. He was an oil man and a cattle man. But he leased some of my pasture;
of course he leased my pastures on the Madill Ranch at $1 an acre for five years.
TH: When?
AD: After I come back from World War I.
TH: Ok, this was later on. The McCromin land and the Keltner land, you were very busy trying
to buy that land in 1931. Does that have something to do with the oil well?
AD: No, the McCromin… I sold the Corbin Ranch—I bought the ranch from the bank in
Oklahoma City and it seems to me for $10 an acre. I sold it to Lee McCromin for $15.
TH: What’s the Keltner land then?
AD: Keltner? Keltner… he was a real estate broker. He was the brother in law…he was Mrs.
Corbin’s brother. He was the one that told me about breaking his neck. He might have sold me
some small piece of land. He had no established ranch like the Corbin Ranch or the Cardin
ranch.
TH: Then the long and the short of it is that you were involved with Martin Neff in an oil well—
AD: Marvin…M-A-R-V-I-N—
TH: Yeah, on the Aylesworth but it was a duster. It just didn’t come out.
AD: Well, it was a shallow well and it failed to produce.
TH: That will clear that up, that was your first oil venture, right?
AD: Yeah, in Madill.
TH: Yeah, you—
AD: In Marshall County. You see both Neff… he was a small operator, but he had faith in this
present oil field. He had, they had bought minerals along that structure and it made his estate and
the Godfrey estate millionaires. Multi-millionaires. But he had bought land; he had a connection
with a land man of an oil company. I’ll tell you, I’ve never told that it was with Magnolia. He
had a man at Magnolia and this man would give Marvin leads and…
TH: That’s done commonly.
AD: He would tell Marvin that Magnolia would buy a lease and then Marvin would go and buy
that land.
TH: Ahead of time, yeah.
AD: Ahead of time, yeah. He would sell the lease in order to pay for the land and the royalty. So,
he was very active in this connection. It was the way I was with Baylis Minter when they bought
that 175,000 acre lease and it gave me back my loss on the—
TH: The feedlot?
AD: Morgan Wilson. But his connection with that company is what made his living for him. Of
course, he acquired these minerals and keep—he always keeps the minerals. The minerals are
what made his estate and Marvin wealthy.
TH: Then that first oil venture was a fill?
AD: Yeah.
TH: Ok, that was a fill.
[Tape Break]
TH: I would like you to tell me about those three weeks when you and O.V. Pope drove around
Oklahoma signing up the 500 cattle for the Oklahoma Livestock Marketing Association.
AD: Alright.
TH: That’s extremely interesting and I just know bare details. Where did you go for example?
AD: Well, Clarence Roberts, a classmate who graduated in 1915 with me at Oklahoma A&M.
He was the editor of the Oklahoma Farmer’s Talk man, owned by the Daily Oklahoman. He had
been trying to operate, to organize a cooperative in Oklahoma which for the Oklahoma Livestock
Market Association. He could not get to first base on it, so he sent for me to come and visit him
in his office in Oklahoma City at the Daily Oklahoman building. So when I went there he asked
me. First he explained that in order to organize this cooperative they would have to have 500
bonafide members. He said that he could not communicate the interest of the ranchers. He asked
me if I would, and could, do that. I told him that at that time the cows were selling for $10 a
head. I told him that I could and that I would. That was my contribution toward the state of
Oklahoma to save all the breeding herds, because the breeding herds, the stock and cows were
being sacrificed. So, I got O.V. Pope to drive me and we would go to these carious places. First
like in Osage County and up to Miami and I went out to the eastern part and the southern part, all
over the Oklahoma and the Drummonds were known as a prominent ranch family. When I would
introduce myself I didn’t know all these people, but when I would introduce myself they knew us
by reputation. They knew that whatever I would tell them would be the truth. Well, it only cost a
dollar.
TH: But they had to promise to send their cattle to—
AD: Through this, to sell them through the co-op. They had, if they became a member they had
to participate and be a working member. It was trying make the association of all the cowmen in
the state of Oklahoma and it was something that’s never been done before because cowmen
don’t believe in co-operators as a rule.
TH: Did you have a hard time selling them the idea?
AD: No. No, because they were desperate and it just cost a dollar and they were glad to that.
Even Will Rogers, I met Will Rogers in Claremore, Oklahoma and he signed up for it. Well, it
took me three weeks. These 500 memberships and I had to have them sign and give me their
dollar, see? The way I would do, I would sleep at nights in the car and O.V. Pope would drive
me. When I would get to these towns I would get one of the leading cowman and have him go
with me to his friends. I had to have the support for each community and it was hard going. It
took me three weeks and I then I would work during the day and as quick as we got the
signatures in that town we would go onto another place. So, we were able, I never took my
clothes off for those three weeks. I came in and delivered these signatures, these signed
membership papers, they didn’t have cards. These 500 signatures to Clarence Roberts and he
took it from there on. Once I had, of course they elected me the first manager of the Oklahoma
Livestock Marketing Association. That was for a short time because I didn’t have the—once I
had accomplished it my mission was through, see? I didn’t want to dedicate my life to running a
co-op. That’s the last thing that I wanted to do. We had to get someone who was willing, that’s
when we settled on—
TH: Lucas?
AD: Lucas and he took over. Then we got a secretary, I forget his name. He’s… after Lucas died
he took over. The secretary became the manager.
TH: Did you go out to the western part of the state on the three week trip?
AD: Yeah.
TH: Then you would have small meetings with three or four or five cattleman?
AD: No, my way to do it—I would get a prominent cattleman, see? If I didn’t know him I would
find out who the prominent rancher there was and I would go and explain it to him in detail and
get him to sign. He could read the others who had signed too. I pointed out who else was on it
and it wasn’t a bunch of radical farmers it was a bunch of prominent cattlemen. Then he would
vouch for me and this—for our setup—to his friends. We didn’t have any meeting. I would say
here, we are trying to organize the Oklahoma Livestock Marketing Association and that’s the
only way we would get 500 people in three weeks, Terry. That was a momentous job.
TH: uh-uhm. That’s why I want to make sure I have it correct in the book.
AD: Well, that is correct.
TH: The Washington Royalty Company, did they have any part at all in the $92,000—
[Tape Ends]