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Marwan Muasher:
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Good morning. My name is Marwan Muasher. I’m Vice President
at Carnegie, in charge of the Middle East Program. Welcome to
this very special event today. Let me first say that, before I
introduce our speaker, that today’s address will be in Arabic.
There is simultaneous translation, so for those who have not
obtained a receiver and headset, please do so as necessary. The
headsets are outside the room. Sheikh Rachid will give his address
in Arabic and after that, you can ask your questions in English but
there will be, like I said, simultaneous translation.
It’s a real honor to have Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi with us today.
I don’t need to introduce Sheikh Rachid to you. He is extremely
well-known. Of course, he is the co-founder and president of the
Nahda Party in Tunisia and a leading Islamics thinker. Sheikh
Rachid has played a very important role in the recent agreement on
the Constitution in Tunisia and on the whole transition process that
is going on there.
For those of us who hope for a more pluralistic Middle East, a
region that accepts differences and tolerates dissent, the record of
the last three years has been a disappointing one. Tunisia has been
the one bright spot in this picture. While everything is not perfect
in that country, the new constitution passed by the National
Constituent Assembly is a major accomplishment. It is one of the
most progressive democratic and pluralistic constitutions to have
ever been adopted in the Arab world, if not the most progressive.
After months of very difficult negotiations, the consensus that
eventually emerged among the country’s Islamic and secular
parties gives us hope for the future. Compromise is never easy, but
it is critical to progress. In the end, Tunisia’s political factions
succeeded in overlooking their differences to develop a political
framework that offers, I think, not just the entire country a chance
for a better future, but that can also serve as a model throughout
the Arab world.
Sheikh Rachid deserves as much credit as any one individual can
claim for these developments. When polarization threatened to
derail the transition last summer, he steered his party towards a
series of concessions – most importantly, relinquishing control
over the government that helped pave the way for the
constitution’s passage. Of course, politics in Tunisia is just
beginning. Many of the fundamental political questions
confronting the country, including the role of religion and politics,
have not yet been decided. Tunisia must also deal with mounting
economic, social, and security problems. Despite the distances it
has come, the challenges to building a more pluralistic and
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democratic society are likely to be just as great in the years ahead.
We are honored and pleased to welcome Sheikh Rachid
Ghannouchi to Carnegie this afternoon. I look forward to his
remarks on how he sees Tunisia navigating the challenges ahead.
Sheikh Rachid.
[Applause]
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Thank you very much, Mr. Muasher. Thank you for your coming
and permit me to express – to explain myself in Arabic and I’ll
respond your questions with my poor English. [Laughter] Yes.
[Speaking in Arabic from 0:04:34 – 0:04:37]
Translator 1:
I am delighted to talk to you – to meet you, to talk about the
Tunisian experience of the Tunisian model, which has proven to
the whole world that democracy is a dream that can be realized,
not in the Muslim world and around the whole world as we are
seeing in various regions. Despite the – we see the impact on the
Ukraine despite the setbacks that the Arab Spring has faced in the
past. The Tunisian experience, ladies and gentlemen, has proved
to those who are fearful of the Arab Spring turning into a
fundamentalist _______ that encouraging military coup is not the
solution, that it only leads to chaos and destruction, in contrast to
the freedom it’s showing by the Tunisian people today. It includes
the people who greatly defended the revolution, the democratic
transition and stood against the terrorists and those who plotted to
bring about chaos to this country. The Tunisian experience has
proven that the cost of encouraging coups, the giving up of the
Arab Spring, is much more greater than showing patience while
nations find their own solutions for their internal crisis and
disputes, which are often caused by a lack of experience on the
part of the political elite and a need for more time to be
accustomed to democratic practices after decades of despotism.
The Tunisian experience has proven, ladies and gentlemen, to
those who are doubting the attentions of the Islamists, that there
are no contradictions between Islam and democracy, and the
victims of decades of repression, marginalization, exclusion, are
not carrying hatred so the part of Islam or desires to revenge, but
there are an enlightened, modernist civil project, as embodied in
the Tunisian Constitution, which has guaranteed the widest
possible consensus as it has been adopted by 200 in the Parliament
out of 217 members – in other words, a majority that nears
complete approval. Despite the regime’s deposement by the
revolution, just find that the repression of the Islamist was a
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necessity to face – to protect democracy from a theocracy and the
protection of security of the world from terrorism and other
slogans that you will use to justify violations and the killings of
hundreds under torture and the imprisonment of tens of thousands
and the _________ of all freedoms. Tunis today has been able to
prove that this is false and that the danger for democracy and
stability and security is despotism itself, and that there is no reason
for despotism anywhere in the world. To – has proved that these
accusations were false. Tunis today is saying to the world and to
the freedom – the friends of freedom that there is no contradiction
between Islam and democracy, that the Islamists stand at the
forefront of those defending the right to difference and cultural
diversity and freedom of cultures and equality between men and
women and all the values that establishes a society of development
and justice.
The success of the Tunisian experience, ladies and gentlemen, was
not spontaneous, nor did – was surprising to those who were
following the – our march since 1981, and the data confirms the
compatibility between Islam and democracy. Therefore, while we
adopted democracy, it was not really a new – after we won
majority in the elections of the constitutional conference, our call
was for unity and not – and coexistence between the Islamists and
the secularists and the two principal families – the two components
of the Arab elite – and without cooperation between them, the state
will never be able to achieve stability and democracy will never
succeed. The troika, which was a coalition between two
secularists and an Islamic party, expressed this conviction that the
success of democracy requires not only the rule of the majority, but
also requires consensus between the Islamists and the secularists as
the two big components of our elite, whether in the government or
in the Council, ______ ____ committed with the same consensus
and to give priority the public interests of Tunis or not to hurry
writing the Constitution, but to maintain the social peace and the
unity of the state until we have been able to reach the greater
sacrifice, what is to give up the government in order to get out of
this political crisis, which threatened the revolution in the country.
We give up the government not under pressure, but through an
election that we lost the revolution or a coup, but we sacrifice
government and our position in it for something that is more
important, and that is to give the Tunisians a democratic and
acceptable constitution to all. People are saying that they – I will
not give up governments, and the idea that the Islamists are asking
for a democracy for a first – for one time only until they get to
power and then they will give up democracy. We have proven in
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Tunis that the Islamists can give up authority even without
elections, and this is something very real in the world and it is
against the nature of people. The nature of people is to insist on
government, but we were able to achieve victory against ourselves
before we succeeded against dictatorship. Many people believed
that al-Nahda will not give up governments even if it loses
elections and that democracy does not mean more than to simply
getting to authority and monopoly over authority, but this
encourages us to prove to our partners and to our people and to the
world that these are only simply fears that are not justified in
Tunis, and that the al-Nahda is a political party that is democratic
and mature and is deeply rooted in Islam and in democracy.
Today, nobody can make doubts about the democratic intentions in
our political reality and our respect to a civil system. Nobody can
claim that the al-Nahda left government because it was forced to,
but because various considerations most important to which is,
first, that our giving up government came within the framework of
a complete move toward national agreement and issuing a
constitution. Our vision was very clear that the goal of reaching
power in the transitional period was to accomplish the constitution
and to lead the country towards elections, and all of them required
consensus and national unity. We refused to have a constitution
for the majority that is imposed on the minority. We understood
the requests of some of the political powers regarding transparency
of elections and the necessity of having a neutral government to
supervise the elections so that there would be no doubts about the
elections, which would be – and that is not done under the
supervision of one party.
We also rejected to decide the issues of the street, even though –
and we refused the division between the Islamists and the
secularists and we kept channels of communication with them and
we accepted the national dialogue because we understood very
well that the struggle and confrontation is not going to resolve the
problems, but because al-Nahda is the greatest party in the country,
it is required to provide the most concessions to protect the
revolution because – so our responsibility was larger and we –
thirdly, that leaving government was achieved after the national
delegation, not a product of pressure in dealing with the crisis. We
have agreed to implement the road map and the resignation of the
government after they reach a consensus about the head of the
government. And we recognize the role of the civil society, such
as the trade unions and organizations that monitor human rights
and to make the civil society a little group between the other
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parties. We saw in Egypt, the army intervened inside of one side
against the other, which did not happen in Tunis.
The Tunisians, on the 23rd of October, went down to elect a
foundation council to prepare the constitution and we realized that
the people will hold them accountable for this historical mission.
And the Constitution and its contents – a constitution that
establishes democracy and a modern society that is respected by
the Muslim Tunisian people, a constitution that does not give
priority to the majority over the minority, we want the people to be
able to see themselves in the constitution and this is what was
achieved. On the other side, there were several parties that
pressured to have a conservative constitution, and to the left from
the secular, a moderate secularist – the secularists pressured to
have a constitution tat is contradictory to the identity of the
Tunisian people who ________. At the end, the middle one and
those who believe in coexistence between the Islamists and the
secularists. The victory by the sectorists would make the
constitution a way to connect between all Tunisians and will give
us benefits and will prevent us from moving toward the right or to
the left, which is needed by Tunis, to follow the middle road.
The Tunisian constitution is based on a vision for Tunis in the
future. We do not want a text that establishes revenge simply to
support one political direction against the other. Those who can be
winners, they can be losers in the future, and this is the product of
a short-sighted policy, but we wanted a constitution that provides
protection for all the rights of the _________ and agree with the
dream of all those reformers since the 18th century, such Khair alDin, who wanted to combine the values of Islam and the values of
modernity without any contradiction. And this is, ladies and
gentlemen, some of the aspects of our experience, which can be
summarized in one word: the national consensus, instead of the
struggle of dispute. This is the word that gave Tunis a constitution
for the revolution, got us out of a very suffocating experience, and
now leading us to elections for Tunis to establish with one of the
Arab democracies.
We were able to reach national consensus with the assistance of
civil society organizations. When the struggle between politicians
went up during the political crisis, by establishing a road map to
get the country out of this crisis, which was about to happen, the
Tunisians were reunited around their civil society organizations
and were patient for six month of dialogue until they were able to
reach this consensus. Consensus in Jordan was achieved and I
think political elitists committed, to a large extent, to support the
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government and Mr. Mahdi Juma, which is blessed by the Tunisian
people and we call on our friends in the world, including the
United States of America, to support the government of Mahdi
Juma because its success will be a success for democracy during
this transitional period.
Our country, ladies and gentlemen, is united and now, in the face
of terrorism. And the political elite knows very well that return to
confrontation is not justified, and the support of the calming of the
situation will help hold the elections under the most difficult
circumstances because one elections such a ______ cannot be
happen. There must be – to support the birth of democracy in
Tunis through –
Translator 2:
Of course, the economic aspect is very important in Tunisia. I
know that we will be sure that there will be stability and we hope
that we are going to encourage national consensus by our friends
all over the world to help the government economically and
reforming the donor organizations or that we can support our thing,
which is the only lightened country in the Arab Spring. Tunisia,
ladies and gentlemen, is flipping over one page of its political
history and it has put democracy on the right path and it has given
the world the first constitution of the Arab Spring, which ends the
era of the repression in the Arab world because they say that they
don’t have the genes for democracy, which is not correct. But
Arabs have already the genes. Arabs, like others, as all creatures,
are well-prepared for democracy and they are able to exchange the
authority and rotate the authority and are able to achieve a
constitution that will make for the freedom of cultures, that ensures
the rights of women and minorities, and it will keep the
development, the continual development, and it’s going to
establish the organizations that can bear the responsibility as well
as political organizations that are taking care of human rights to
observe the behavior of the ruler.
I think that this should go ahead even after the next elections that
are going to take place because we need consensus because the
Islams and seculars, but the Islamic tendencies have to make for
Tunisia of tomorrow and that the Tunisian ship has to take off by
all the Tunisians and not a part thereof. And I think that our party
is going to be a frontrunner in the next elections, but it shouldn’t be
governed by one party only. When the organizations are fragile,
having 51 majority is not enough. We have to have a stable
government and stable democracy. We believe that the country
will need a coalition government that brings together the main
parties in the country in order to achieve stability and strengthen
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democracy and its institutions. This is the Tunisian lesson, just a
small country with its geographic boundaries and its geographic
resources, and as democracy and peace as well as freedom, and
thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk to you, and peace
be upon you.
[Applause]
Marwan Muasher:
[Speaking in Arabic from 0:23:46 to 0:23:49]
Translator 2:
Thank you, Sheikh Rachid, for this comprehensive speech and we
are going to start the questions right now, but beforehand, I’d like
to welcome the Tunisian ambassador and representative of the
Arab League as well as all those who are here. Ladies and
gentlemen – and also, we’d like to talk about the spokesperson of
the party in Tunisia.
Sheikh Rachid, you have used in your speech all the expressions
that we are looking for in the Arab world. The national consensus
and non-monopoly of the authority and coexistence between
Islamists and secularists as well as national consensus, as well as
the freedom of cultures, equality between men and women. We
have heard about all that in the Arab world, but I think that it’s
there only in the Tunisian Constitution. There are some persons
who say that agreement to the Constitution was not achieved
except after the al-Nahda party has got the lesson from what has
taken place in Egypt, and we would like to know your point of
view in this matter. Undoubtedly, the Tunisian experience is quite
different from the Egyptian experience. Therefore, how can you
respond to that? And secondly, do you think that the Tunisian
model could be applied in other Arab countries and how they can
have national consensus through the coexistence between all
parties and having the consensus between all parties instead of the
separations who is taking place in many countries right now?
S. R. Ghannouchi:
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Yes. Yes. Even the situation – social situation in Tunisia is
different from the Egyptian one or Libyan one. Each society has
own specificities. I think Tunisia can affect positively the other
revolution, the other Arab countries because there are many
similarities between all Arab societies. All Arabs look for
democracy, liberty. About the Tunisian experience vis-à-vis the
consensus – notion of the consensus, we practice this consensus
not after some months, but since the beginning in – after the
October 23, 2011 when our movement has almost the majority, we
insisted that the country, the period of transition, needs the
government of coalition, not government of one party. We don’t
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like that Tunisian people feel that we move from one party, called
the RCD, to other party, called Nahda. So since the beginning, we
were very keen and we’re still very keen that Tunisia has to be
ruled through government of coalition, specially between moderate
Islamists and moderate secularists. So this is the main pillar of socalled “Tunisian experience” of transition of democracy. And how
others can benefit from this experience, up to them. [Laughter]
Marwan Muasher:
Okay. We’re going to take maybe three questions at a time. We
have a full room, so please keep your questions short and identify
yourself and your affiliation, please.
Dr. Mohammed:
Dr. Mohammed, International Center for Counter-Radicalism. I
have question to Mr. Ghannouchi, like do you agree with the
message of ________ as launching violence ahead to subjugate
people, to _______, as mentioned in his book, [speaking in Arabic
0:29:17-0:29:19] I would like to get your answer as yes or no,
please. Thank you.
[Laughter]
Marwan Muasher:
Let’s take a couple more questions. [Laughter] Yes, please.
[Speaking in Arabic from 0:29:35 to 0:29:48]
Male 1:
I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Tunisia in 1980, ’81.
[Speaking in Arabic from 0:29:51 to 0:29:57]
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Another question?
Marwan Muasher:
Let’s – with your permission, three questions at a time and then we
–
Male 1:
So when I returned to Tunisia – and I honestly forget – a year and
a half ago, I can’t remember exactly when, the day I landed in
Tunis was the day that the Salafists shut down the National Theatre
because a play was about to be produced and apparently it was a
dialogue between a fundamentlist – maybe a Salafist – and a
secular. And there were massive coils of barbed wire all over
Avenue Habib Bourguiba and the police were out in presence, and
yet, the National Theatre was closed by the Salafists and the play
was not staged. And I’m curious if you feel, in the beginning, you
didn’t – your party didn’t take the Salafists seriously enough until
they began assassinations, or what could you say about the role –
the link between your party and the Salafists?
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[Speaking in Arabic from 0:31:07 to 0:31:13]
Tommamem Borazi: My name is Tommamen Borazi. I’m a Syrian journalist. Mr.
Ghannouchi, you graduated from Damascus.
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Yes.
Tommamem Borazi: So you know Syria quite well. What went wrong and what’s –
[laughter] why we don’t follow you? And what did you contribute
to Syrian, you know, like a mediator or something, like you can
talk to the Syrian regime?
[Speaking in Arabic from 0:31:39-0:31:40]
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Yes, I have studied in Damascus, but it’s for a long time.
[Laughter] In ‘60s, where democracy – remains of democracy still
there at the time. In the university, there are many conflict
between students, but after that, Ba’ath came to power and dictator
finish everything, every – destroy every remains of democracy. I
think Syrian elites in opposition failed – so far, has failed
consensus between – among them. It’s failure of elite. I think
Tunisian elite, even there are many confrontation, many
difficulties, but ________ but they succeed finally to reach
consensus and they save our – this experience of democracy. We
hope that, one day, the Syrian elites can reach some consensus.
Also, there are other difference between the position – the
geography. Tunisian geography is different from the Syrian and
Egyptian geography, so it’s put heavy responsibilities, heavy
elements and difficulties on Syria and Egypt.
But I extremely believe that one day, then they reach their
democracy. They succeed to get rid of with dictatorship. The
regime of Assad, like the regime of Sisi, has no future because
there is – the Arab Spring has achieved a very important
achievement. I mean, the fear has collapsed. Arab people
discovered through this revolution that the ruler, the despots, are
not strong enough. People discover their capacity, their energy.
So it’s not easy to – [speaking in foreign language from 0:35:13 to
0:35:16]
Marwan Muasher:
To put it back into the bottle. [Laughter] To put the genie back in
the bottle.
S. R. Ghannouchi:
So it’s a matter of time. When this people will reach its
democracy, matter of time, but going back is not possible. So I’m
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very optimist that Arabs will reach their democracies sooner or
later. About [speaking in Arabic from 0:35:49 to 0:36:06] Sayyid
Qutb, his personality –
Dr. Mohammed:
Yes or no?
S. R. Ghannouchi:
His personality is very complicate. He’s poet, he’s also _____.
Dr. Mohammed:
Yes or no?
Female:
He won’t say yes or no, that’s _____.
S. R. Ghannouchi:
So you couldn’t deal with Sayyid Qutb, with this logic.
[Laughter] Sayyid Qutb, his personality is – has many dimensions.
You couldn’t deal with a personality like Sayyid Qutb with yes or
no’s, because he is not loyal. He is ____. He is ____ philosopher,
he is – I’m not agree – I criticize Sayyid Qutb in many issues. One
of them is the notion of [speaking in Arabic from 0:37:10 to
0:37:10]. The notion of –
Male:
Pre-Islam.
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Pre-Islam of – he consider that our societies are not Muslim, like
not Muslim or like pre-Islam. The text of Sayyid Qutb are very
complicate. We cannot deal with them with this simplified logic.
But we can contradict. I contradict many concepts of Sayyid Qutb
________. I’m not agree that his position vis-à-vis the others, who
different from us. The third one?
Male:
Salafism.
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Oh, Salafism. The other subject of – is very complicate, yes. Not
easy subject, yes. Our relation – Salafism is not simple concept.
It’s very complicate.
There is many differences within the Salafist. There is – for
example, vis-à-vis using violence, some of them use violence,
some of them not. The jihadist, it’s only branch of Salafism. In
Tunisia, there are three Salafi parties recognized by the
government because they don’t use violence, because the state has
no problem with the ideologies, with the value behind these.
The message, the role of government is to security, to guarantee
security, to implement justice, to give service to people. But about
their faith, their ideologies, it’s matter of society, not matter of
state. Imposing any model of life is not matter of state; it’s the
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society has full right to choose any model of life – how dress, how
to dress, eat, it’s matter of society, not matter of state. State it’s
role to impose security, to implement justice, to give services. So
once the government confront with the Salafist when they take
weapons, when they try to impose themselves, their model on the
society and use violence. So once when our Salafist work to
spread their ideology within the mosques and in society, we leave
them. Once they start to smuggle with ones from Libya to train
and to confront with the police, the government classify this
branch, Ansar al-Sharia, as terrorist group and declares war against
them. It’s not matter of ideas; it’s matter of security.
This phenomena is very complicate one. It has to be fought with
complicate medicine also to guarantee the freedom, to develop the
area where they grow up, it’s the poorest area in Tunisia, so there
is lack of development, and the role of the imams, the thinkers to
rethinking Islam, to convince people that Islam is not violence, is
not anti-woman, anti-arts, anti-democracy. Islam is justice, mercy,
science. So this young people are victim of lack of knowledge
about Islam. So this phenomena is very complicate, needs to be
corrected by complicate solution.
Marwan Muasher:
Let’s take a – yes, sir, over there. Yes.
Khail Liani:
Khail Liani from the Middle East Institute. I just have two
questions for you. The first one is about the presidential elections.
Will al-Nahda nominate someone for the presidency or not in the
upcoming elections?
[Speaking Arabic from 0:43:18 to 0:43:22]
Khail Liani:
The second one is about –
S. R. Ghannouchi:
____ why it’s not me? [Laughter]
Khail Liani:
Yeah, that’s very kind of you. Okay, if not you, will al-Nahda
support anyone else to the presidency? The second question is
about the internal division within al-Nahda. Some people are
talking about these divisions after the constitution, that al-Nahda
give concessions and they could not satisfy all of grassroots of alNahda from within. To what extent is it true? Is there any division
within al-Nahda or not? Thank you.
[Speaking Arabic from 0:43:53 to 0:43:57]
S. R. Ghannouchi:
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Why you intervene in our kitchen? [Laughter]
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Marwan Muasher:
Yes. The woman in the glasses, yes.
Tala Haikal:
Tala Haikal, American Task Force on Palestine. Do you still stand
by your claims that women are complementary to men and what is
al-Nahda doing to include more women, both in politics and in the
labor force?
[Speaking in Arabic from 0:44:19 to 0:44:28]
Marwan Muasher:
Talk, please.
Aseel al-Awadhi:
Aseel al-Awadhi, a former member of the Kuwaiti Parliament.
You spoke about the Islamist experience as it is one unified body.
You talked – we’re very proud about your experience, but our
experience is totally different and I think in all Arab worlds, the
skepticism about the Islamists when they gain power is still, I
think, valid because of their behavior. They didn’t share,
obviously, your vision and they were not tolerant. Our Islamists is
not tolerant at all to differences of opinion or to secularists.
So I just wanna know what do you think about the Islamist
experience with the Arab Spring because we’re not gonna talk
about Tunisia, because Tunisia is the exception, really, that – the
model that we are all proud of. But we can’t generalize when we
have just one exception. We heard about your opinion about Sisi,
which is totally understandable, but I wanna hear about your
opinion about Morsi and other Islamists who actually had their
share in power in other Arab countries. Thank you.
[Speaking in Arabic from 0:45:57 to 0:45:57]
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Yes. The first question about whether al-Nahda will represent
candidate in presidency elections next, this decision has not yet
made. All parties, Tunisian parties, still –
Marwan Muasher:
Negotiating? No. [Laughter]
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Waiting, negotiate. [Laughter] But soon, they will take – they will
decide their position. And I expect that Nahda will not have a
candidate in presidency. I expect. But things has not yet decided.
In anyway, Nahda insist that if our people renew its confidence in
Nahda, even if Nahda has the majority, we insist that the
government has to be coalition government between Islamists and
secularists to guarantee that the third step of transition to
democracy will succeed also.
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Marwan Muasher, Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi, Several Speakers
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We are very keen that democracy in Tunisia will not be an
accident, but it will be the future of Tunisia, not simple accident.
So it can be a simple accident. So the risk, we are aware that – of
this risk. Democracy can be simple accident and the dictator come
back. So we have to guarantee the government of consensus, not
government of simple majority.
Are there confrontation, are differences within al-Nahda? Yes.
Yes, Nahda is modern party, not led by Sheikh Sufi. [Laughter]
Sufi Sheikh. But – or supreme guide. So the ______ ______, we
have not this motion, so it’s a modern party where there are many
wings, many confrontation, and finally, the institution of the party
decide. But al-Nahda, we all – our members believe in democracy,
believe in moderate Islam, believe in _______ using violence, and
believe that the decision has to be made by the institution of the
party and all people has to obey of this decision. I think our party
is the main party in the country and the most unified party in the
country.
About the women rights, it’s very – this issue is very important in
Tunisia. It’s part of the Tunisian model of democracy. If permit
me, I would like to leave the panel to our sister, Amel Azzouz, to
speak in behalf of women, not me. [Laughter]
Female:
_____ ____ _______ ____ ______.
Marwan Muasher:
Can you use the podium because of the microphone, please? Yes.
Amel Azzouz:
Thank you, Sheikh Rachid. Thank you for allowing me this
opportunity. First of all – yeah. Okay, my name is Amel Azzouz.
I’m a member of the National Constituent Assembly and
particularly, I’m a member of a very important constituent
commission, that’s commission number one dealing with preamble
and the basic principles and the amendment of the Constitution.
I’m also a member of the Shura Council of my party, Nahda. The
Shura Council is supposed to be the highest institution in my party.
As for women’s question, I’ve – to be frank with you, I’ve always
liked and preferred to talk about citizens in general, men and
women, because I’m supposed to represent men and women in my
country. But because women’s question has been used as an alibi,
has been exploited, even, very much in my country, has been used
by political parties to attack al-Nahda political opponent, so I’m
oblige to answer back and to respond to those – to many
allegations.
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Marwan Muasher, Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi, Several Speakers
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As for – let me start by the first part of the question, which is
complementary – the question of complementarity. This question
has been dealt with in commission number two, Freedoms and
Liberties, I think, that’s of Freedom and Liberties. And the context
in which it has been presented is not the one which has been
perpetuated afterwards or which was perpetuated afterwards,
because even in Arabic, the camel, it means one – I mean, men
complementaring women and women complementaring men. It’s
not the same as in French, la complémentarité, for example, or in
English, the same. The way it has been dealt with in that
commission and those who have been even presented – who those
– who have presented that notion, if you want, what they meant is
trying to put an end to men’s selfishness. There are public spheres
and private spheres, and what you wanted exactly is to bring men
back to the private spheres and get women out to the public sphere.
Why are we supposed women all the time to be confined to the
private sphere? Why are men only supposed to be in the public
sphere? So let us, you, you come to my sphere with children,
education, all of those affairs or matters women are supposed to do
with, and men is supposed to deal with the serious matters.
So this is how things – but because this very issue was a matter of
controversy, it was controversial, my party said, “Let’s put an end
to this. This constitution gathers, joins in any issue which is a
matter of conflict, we should get rid of it.” So we got rid of it and
we still believe and continue to believe – we have always believed
in theory and practice that – in gender equality, that men or women
should participate in the building and change in a very big mission,
if you want, social mission of change, okay? If you go back to the
writings of Sheikh Rachid and the writings of our thought, our
programs, our communiqués also since the ‘80s, I belong to this
party. I started belonging as an activist, as a student activist, in this
party in the ‘80s and I was aware of what I’m doing. This party
believes in women, in women’s addition, in women’s participation.
That’s why I chose to be an activist inside this party.
As for the Constitution now, as for the Constitution, nothing came
under pression. These are our convictions and beliefs, although
there are certain people who’d like to show the world that things
here are under pressure of certain or certain faction, if you want, or
another faction. I’d like to read a cite, if you don’t mind, from the
preamble, which I am proud to be a member of the commission of
the preamble. I’d like to read Article 21 and Article 20 – 46,
which is really a real addition I’m proud of in this Constitution. In
the preamble, Paragraph number 4, I cite at the end of the
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Marwan Muasher, Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi, Several Speakers
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Paragraph number 4 the role of the state, if you want. So, “all
citizens, male and female” – this is assuring – let me read,
“independence of the judiciary equality of rights and duties
between all citizens, male and female, et cetera.” In Article 26, as
well, I cite, “The right” – no, that’s not 26, 21. “All citizens, male
and female, have equal rights and duties and are equal before the
law without any discrimination. The state guarantees freedoms
and individual and collective rights to all citizens, and ensures all
citizens the conditions for a dignified life.” As for Article 46, I
cite, “The state commits to protect women’s accrued rights and
work to strengthen and develop those rights. The state guarantees
the equality of opportunities between women and men to have
access to all levels of responsibility in all domains. The state
works to attain parity between women and men in elected
assemblies. The state takes all necessary measures in order to
eradicate violence against women.” If you have a look at our
program with which we have conducted, the campaign, the
electorate campaign, we have said things like that. We said we do
defend. We are for the defense of women’s acquisitions in this
country. The code, the penal – not the penal code, the family code,
if you want, yes? The statute –
Male:
The personal status.
Amel Azzouz:
Yes, the personal status, if you want. We have to defend that. Not
only that. We have committed ourselves also to develop those
acquisitions. We still believe in my party that women have to be
represented in decision-making positions. This is what we need,
really. If you want real change in women’s position, we have to
empower her politically, which I think is the problem for all
women all over the world. It’s not only the woman’s problem in
Tunisia. Women all over the world are being marginalized, and
how can you feel such exclusion? It’s when you know the number
of women in those positions, very delicate positions of decisionmaking. So we’ll continue to work on legislation so that we
guarantee womens’ empowerment – politically, especially,
economic, and social empowerment. Okay, thank you.
[Applause]
Marwan Muasher:
Thank you. Sheikh Rachid, the question on Tunisian Islamic
experience as an exception, rather than the rule, in the Arabic
world. The member of parliament from Kuwait –
S. R. Ghannouchi:
I think Islamists are not one. There is plurality within Islamists.
Any temptation to simplify this notion and exposing Islamists as
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Marwan Muasher, Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi, Several Speakers
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one is not scientific. Islamism, it’s social phenomenon. Any
social phenomena is plural. We have not simplified them and
linked them with terrorism, with backwardness.
So we can see in this phenomena two trends, two trends. The
mainstream of Islamism is moderate, in general. What I mean by
moderate? Moderate – I mean by moderate, they refuse using
violence to impose their ideas, ideologies. They refuse to go to the
power through weapons or stealing the power by eliminate
freedoms. I mean by moderate Islamist who is very keen to work
with indulu. And the other trends, they refuse work in indulu and
they try to impose their laws and destroy the realities, the law in
praxis, in place. So the _____ ______ _____, for example, are in
the heart of these trend of moderate Islamism. But within ______
_______, within this trend, there are many, many specifities
according of the reality in this country and the reality others
country, so we cannot put in the same bag the Islamists – all
Islamists because there are different.
I think in Kuwait, there are many fraction jihadist and moderate
and Salafist, so it’s wrong, I think. It’s wrong to simplify this
plural phenomenon.
Marwan Muasher:
Okay, please. Yes.
[Alarm sounding]
Oh, no. Somebody doesn’t want you to ask the question.
[Laughter] Okay, please.
Ken Peres:
All right, I’ll just sit down. My name is Ken Peres, I’m Chief
Economist for the Communications Workers of America. It’s a
union here. The economic situation in Tunisia, obviously, was one
of the main causes of the revolution and Tunisia’s still in difficult
situation. So the question is – two questions: one, does al-Nahda
support or have a plan to improve Tunisia’s economy overall, and
specifically, in the less-developed areas, and two is, if so, what is
it?
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Okay. Over there, yes. No.
Male:
You made numerous references to Tunisia being a model, but I
remember those days when you frequently made references to
Turkey as a model. And recently, I’ve been hearing Tunisia
becoming a model for Turkey. [Laughter] What’s happened
there? Could you please reflect on it a little bit? Thank you.
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Marwan Muasher, Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi, Several Speakers
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S. R. Ghannouchi:
Okay, yes. Please, yes.
Male:
[Speaking Arabic from 1:03:30 to 1:03:35]
Translator 1:
Stages first democracy, second, proving that it’s capable to go
through the transition. The third is, what does the Islamist provide
economically to Tunis? In 1981, there was one statement by the
Islamists that the needs of people, something to that effect, yeah.
Are there any economic reading for the Nahda party with regard to
the situation in Tunis in the Arab world? The second question is
about the Salafists. You have – response was not very clear. The
mentality of the Salafist is the same as that of the Islamist to alNahda. Is there any evidence that the Salafists are different from
the Islamists? Because their ideas are similar to these Islamists.
Last question?
Sam Hal Hanawi:
Sam Hal Hanawi, Egyptian Americans for Democracy and Human
Rights. ____ Sheikh, I know exactly your point of view on the
coup in Egypt and you’re absolutely anti-coup, but do you think
there is any element or any part Tunis may play in Egypt to try to
bring the both party, the Muslim Brotherhood and the Army to sit
together, try to come up with a way or negotiation to get out of
what’s happening in Egypt and stop the killing, stop the blood, and
actually free the prisoners? Thank you.
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Again, Egypt is very important. So it’s worth to speak again about
this very important country. It’s the leader of Arabs. So changing
Egypt is not easy because changing Egypt means changing the
whole region. So it needs – it’s the price which Egyptian have to
pay, to have the democracy, because if they liberate Egypt, they
liberate all the region. So all ______, all power who don’t care
about democracy or refuse or fear democracy, they try to stop the
change in Egypt.
And it’s clear that – is it what the Morsi government has done? Is
it all – is it right and légitime? I think Morsi government made
many mistakes. I think that Egyptian elite have failed to discuss
between them, to reach consensus. So it’s failure of elite, what
happened in Egypt. Whether Morsi tried to negotiate and to
encourage his opponent to share power with him or not, I haven’t
enough knowledge. But in democracy and Morsi’s elect – is
elected president, in democracy, mistakes cannot justify coup
d’État. In democracy, mistakes can be done, can be committed,
but how we correct the mistakes in democracy? Through
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Marwan Muasher, Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi, Several Speakers
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elections, even anticipate elections. Not to go to the army and to
commit this crime of massacres.
So soon or late, Egyptian people will regain his democracy and
continue his itinerary toward democracy, with Morsi or without
Morsi. But I am talking about Egyptian people. Egyptian people
now the main – now the youth Egyptian, Egyptian youth in
universities, every day, they protest and the spirit of revolution is
there. No one can – no can strangle this spirit, extinguish.
[Laughter]
Marwan Muasher:
Economic plan for –
S. R. Ghannouchi:
Yes. The main – now, the main problem in Tunisia is the
economy, but before the economy, the politics. Tunisia has very
limited, modest resources, natural resources. The main resources
in Tunisia is the human resources. There is good level of
education, there is middle-class, very vast middle-class in Tunisia.
We are in – geographically, we are in good place, in the heart of
the Mediterranean. We missed the liberty, the stability. If we
guarantee the democracy in Tunisia, we see the key of economic
development. Tunisia is able to be Singapore, Malaysia, and so
on, if it succeed establishing the democrat system.
So now, Tunisian are occupied not with the economy, but we are
occupied with establishing democracy. Even during the last two
years, our economy achieved some development. Now, the
government started with the Tunisian economy with two percent
under zero, negative. Now, the level – the rate of growth is three
percent positive. But still, high level of unemployment in the
country and we think that stability can ________ this problem.
The program of – in economy nowadays social, we accept the free
initiative in the economy, but within the justice, within the social
guarantee for the poor people. So we see in Turkey an example of
fast development has done. Even we are talking many time about
Scandinavian model of economy, which combine between social
justice and free initiative. And we still develop our model of
economy.
Marwan Muasher:
Okay. Please, thank you and – oh, sorry.
[Speaking in foreign language from 1:12:57 to 1:13:00]
Translator 2:
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Is there any proof for differences between al-Nahda and the
Salafists?
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Marwan Muasher, Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi, Several Speakers
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S. R. Ghannouchi:
Is there any proof that Nahda is different from Salafi? Our brother
there, he needs us to say that we don’t read the Quran because they
read the Quran. [Laughter] We don’t read the Sunnah because
they read it. No, it’s not right to say that, “No, the government of
Nahda classify Ansar al-Sharia as terrorist more than – more –
yesterday, the Minister of Interior said that thousand of ______
people have been arrested. We are not happy with that,” but they
worth to do that because they using violence. So I’m not simplify
things. Things are very complicate. Islamists, all of them, they are
the same? If we – you will note that there are some difference, you
can explain that it’s only appearance. It’s a double discourse and
role-playing. It’s not scientific. We don’t of explain the social –
complicate social phenomenon.
Marwan Muasher:
Please join me in thanking Sheikh Rachid for this excellent
_______.
[Applause]
[End of Audio]
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