Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock, Roger Williams. Length of interview: 80 minutes, 06 seconds. Place of interview: Peter’s house – Abbey Road, West Bridgford, Nottingham. Full transcript: Okay, this is Anna Cotton, it’s 29th June 2016 and I’m here on behalf of the Stories of Sneinton Market project and I’m interviewing three individuals today. 00:15 So one by one, if you wouldn’t mind giving your full name, your place of birth and the year that you were born please? Steve: Okay, my name is Steve Pollock. I was born in Derby, now living in Nottingham. I’ve lived in Nottingham for the last thirty-­‐five years or so. I got involved in the fruit trade in around about 1980. Peter: I’m Peter Buttery. I’m the old guy of the lot – I’m nearly seventy years of age … I can’t remember when exactly I started in the wholesale market but I know it was straight from school and … I couldn’t wait to get there and I enjoyed every moment of it. Roger: My name’s Roger Williams, born in 1951 in Radford, Nottingham. I’ve lived in Nottingham all my life -­‐ left school in June 1966 on the Friday, started on the following Monday working with my dad in Nottingham wholesale market and I did 44 ½ years before I retired early. 1:22 So you’re all retired now, is that right? Steve: Correct. 1 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. 1:25 And whenabouts did you all respectively retire? Peter: When did I retire? Two years ago, so 2014. Steve: I retired three years ago. Roger: I retired six years ago. 1:41 So you’re enjoying your retirement?! Roger: Yes, certainly am. Murmurs of yes from Peter and Steve. 1:45 Have any of you lived in Sneinton at any given time as well as working there? Peter: No … Steve: I live not far, about a mile away, just up Carlton Road, but not officially the Sneinton area, but near enough. 1:57 Okay, so am I right in thinking you had a stall on the wholesale market? Peter: We were on the wholesale market, yes. 2:04 What kind of things did you sell? Peter: Anything that the caretakers required, obviously it was mainly fruit and veg. Occasionally other things used to come along, ha ha! 2 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: Into the retail sector as well, that was the main thing, wasn’t it? And then the catering companies obviously they had their share. And we all worked together at the same company at some point. 2:29 So were you on a stall together, or how did it work? Roger: We were at one time, at Pete’s company. We worked there together, but Steve was also in the retail side. I mean I’d worked for seven different companies before I retired. Each time moving on, starting working on the barrows and unloading, sweeping out and what have you, up until I became salesman -­‐ at one time I was sales manager at one company. So, Steve and I didn’t actually own any of the companies but we did work for Pete. And Pete along with some other people owned his own company. 3:13 Pete, what was your company called? Peter: Nottingham Fresh Fruit. 3:20 And is that still trading now? Peter: No, it’s all gone. 3:24 Did it finish when you retired or before that? Peter: Well, no, what would it have been? Fifteen years ago when I came out of that. Steve: Mid-­‐nineties, wasn’t it? Peter: Yeah. And then I went … still connected with the market, working from the cattle market. 3 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. 3:35 Because that was when the wholesale market moved out of Sneinton wasn’t it? In the early nineties? Peter: I think it was later than that. 3:46 I think it was ’92 that video* was, that we watched? *The Way We Were, aired at the Sneinton Market Stories film night on 20th April 2016, Which Peter, Roger and Steve all attended. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gI5-­‐DoO6h8 Peter: No no, we were still down the old market in the mid-­‐nineties. Roger: It must be twenty years because I did sixteen years at Fyffes. I’ve been retired six years, so it’s at least twenty years. Steve: Well I went to work for Fresh-­‐Way in ’94 and I went from the old market, so it was still there in ’94. So I think probably ’96, ’97, something like that. 4:13 So how did you feel when you heard that the wholesale market was going to be moved out of Sneinton? Peter: Disastrous, absolutely disastrous. Well, the proof of the pudding was how few people went. And there was some really good strong companies that just couldn’t see a way of continuing to earn a good living. Because we knew straight away that the rents would be astronomical. And they was bringing in -­‐ if I remember right, it was a long time ago -­‐ it was a service charge which at the time they couldn’t actually put a percentage on it, or where the cost would come from and that was a big bone of contention. Lots of big companies like Hammonds at Redhill, they didn’t go. Geest didn’t go … Geest Industries. You know, it was a big thing and I think … myself and talking for other people as well I would think that they certainly didn’t want to move. 4 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Alright – the old market, modify it a little bit, which it could have been done. But no, the powers to be, the council dare I say it, it’d got to go. Roger: I think on the positive side, going to the new market, I mean as a worker, not as an owner – having clean toilets, where you could actually go to the toilet rather than down in the old place, having hot and cold running water, which was quite a bonus and also not having any hills. Having been a barrow boy for quite some time, going up the hills, particularly up towards what we know as the top market, the retail market, I mean we were all fit young guys in those days. Unfortunately we’re paying for it a bit for it now. And also there was no potholes, so … but I agree with Peter, you know, we lost our identity when we lost the old market. You know the old market was made for horses and carts, but we still got articulated lorries round. There was a lot of swearing and shouting, people parking in the wrong places, but there was atmosphere. When we moved to the new place -­‐ Peter: It died. Roger: Yeah, it had gone. There were plusses but I think they were outweighed. 6:43 So your customers, the crowds didn’t follow you to new market then? Peter: Um, it’s not really that Anna, I think what Roger’s tipped on which is hard to explain is there was such an atmosphere which … Steve: Evaporated, didn’t it? Peter: Yeah, good words Steve. It was just so, so special. Don’t get me wrong, it was really hard work, everybody worked hard, but everybody enjoyed it. They all had a good standard of life from what I can recall. It was great and it was such a shame that it was all being taken away. This is what I meant about, “Alright, it could have been modernised” – I think you would have still kept the atmosphere there. But going to a brand new custom-­‐built market, which was never built as a market should 5 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. have been, the design of it … unfortunately it died, and they were really, really special years for me particularly. Roger: I think in the old market we had what we used to call “tuzzing,” a lot of tuzzing, a lot of leg pulling and winding up. Steve: Banter. Roger: And, you know, you’d have a go at people and they’d have a go at you, “Oh you blond haired so-­‐and-­‐so,’” or whatever you know. Peter: Four-­‐eyed, don’t forget that bit! Roger: Oh yeah, four-­‐eyed -­‐ sorry yeah. And you know, none of it … I don’t think I ever saw a fight down there. Nobody ever took it that personally, you just gave it back or walked away, you know, it depended on how shy you were. Steve: It was accepted as routine for the, day, wasn’t it? Peter: But on the odd occasion from what I remember, there were a few scraps. Like, the policeman in that the film show touched on, there was nothing meant by it. You’d probably go out and have a drink with them that night and all forgotten … it was just like one massive great big football team, all playing together, so to speak. Steve: I think going back to the numbers of companies that were on the old market, I think at the end there was probably about twenty, were there? Roger: There was forty-­‐two at one time and there was about twenty … Steve: At the end. But how many of those twenty went down the market? No more than a dozen I don’t think? 6 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Peter: No, that was about it, there was a big reduction. Roger: The annoying thing was the company I was working for, the guy I was working for, he wasn’t a company … he hadn’t got a place in the new market. And I was really concerned, I’d got a wife and two children and a budgerigar to feed and I’m like, “Oh dear, where are we, what’s going to happen?” But luckily, a national company, Fyffes, came in and wanted him as their manager and I said, “You’ve got to take that job,” thinking … That’s where I ended up, where my last sixteen years were, working for Fyffes, which was very, very lucky because we had exceptionally good pension schemes and we got well looked after. They’re actually still there, they’re one of the two that survived. Peter: Going back to the atmosphere, for myself, was that from a very early age, probably thirteen or fourteen, I knew I wanted to go and work in a wholesale market. My dad’s side, he was in farming in Lincolnshire, although all his life he was in the army and the civil service and the last thing he wanted me to do, although he knew I was enjoying it ... I used to go out with his brother-­‐in-­‐law, who used to do seed potatoes from Lincolnshire and take them to Scotland, Covent Garden, all over the country and as a young lad – twelve, thirteen, fourteen, I used to think it was a great adventure, going round all these markets and hearing this banter and drinking giant mugs of tea and I wanted to do that, I wanted to do that! I can remember my dad saying to me, “Pete, if you go in the civil service … you get all these holidays and if you do service abroad -­‐” which I went abroad with my dad for a few years. He was saying things like, “I’ve only ever known two get the sack and that was for spying!” (Roger and Steve laugh). You know, so that’s how he was told to get the civil service across to me. But no, I was stubborn. He wanted me to go to agricultural college and “I don’t want that, I want to be with the real people.” Roger: If it’s in your blood, you know. Peter: That was it. 7 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: And when they set anybody new on, you knew within a week at the most if they were going to do it or not. Peter: Ooh crikey, yeah. Roger: You know, there was so many people who I saw come in and they were this that and the other, and you’d think, “No, they haven’t got it, it’s not in them.” And that’s why we’ve all done so many years in the business for the love of it … for the love. Peter: Well that’s right. Talking on that, a little story, I’d probably been at the market at Blatherwicks, probably then -­‐ Roger: Not the Edna Sole story, is it? Peter: No, that’s too rude, I won’t be bringing that one up! It had been about probably eight to ten months, I’d got settled in, was feeling my feet and everything. And there was this young man … who just wasn’t fitting in, none of the lads was getting on with him and he was moaning about this that and the other. At that particular time you used to start a bit later in the morning – it was still early, but you’d work through a lot longer in the afternoons so you’d have a lunch break and you’d go into the café, which was Thelma’s – prior to that it was Rag’s caff. So what they did, they got one of the lorry ropes and got this lad, tied his hands behind his back, threw it over one of the lampposts, hoisted him up, tied it at the bottom. We all went in having our dinner, watching him outside and all of a sudden we saw a guy we call Tug Wilson -­‐ notorious police man, about 7ft -­‐ he was so big, massive and we saw him coming down the road, Avenue C it was, and we thought, “We’re in for it now, we’re gonna get a pasting!” Anyway, as he walked down we saw him and (he) just crossed the road and walked on! You know, little things like that … It was crazy. They were the things … I loved it. There was always something. 8 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: Roger talked about being able to identify people who could make a go of it, but I think people outside of it underestimated what damned hard work it was, starting work at three o’clock in the morning and before that, working right through in all weathers till … Peter: The job was done. Roger: Mentally and physically. Steve: In the winter periods, January, February, up to your blimmin’ kneecaps in snow and things like that, it was not easy. And I think that also put off a lot of the younger people coming into it, because they just didn’t want that way of life. And during the eighties I think, the late eighties, the youngsters seemed to get a bit more freedom and there were more different types of jobs for them to attack … Unless you came from one of the well-­‐known family groups that were in the trade then there weren’t a lot of young people being attracted. Even if they came down, a lot of them, after a couple of months, they’d gone. Roger: Yeah you found that on the retail side, didn’t you? The families that had been in -­‐ thinking in particular of one that was on the top market. That next generation, who is more or less our age, but there’s nobody else taking it on when he goes. And this is the problem -­‐ “Oh no, my lad’s not coming into this.” Well, hold on, you’ve not done too bad out of it. I mean, I left school with the most disgusting school report you could … in fact, my dad never saw it till the day he died, it was so bad. I’d got no qualifications, but … I’ve had a decent life, two lads at university ... But it was one of those industries where if you worked hard and you’d got a bit of gumption about you … Peter: That’s it -­‐ it was a way of life, wasn’t it? Steve: Oh definitely, definitely. 9 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: Your turn. 14:57 So Peter, you said that it was in your blood that you knew you wanted to be a market trader, from the age of thirteen, fourteen. Peter: Yes. 15:05 Did you feel the same, Steve and Roger? Roger: Well, my dad had always been in the market, prior to the war and after the war and I used to go down on occasion when he’d forgotten to take his reading glasses down, with my mum and it just seemed the right place. And I went to work at the same company as him but … he did flowers, I was exotic fruit. But it didn’t work out, I only had two years there with him, but I was so eager that the last few weeks at school, I’d even got worked out what I was going to be wearing. You know, I’m gonna get some tough boots, I’m gonna get some of those jeans and so forth and … I actually ended up going to work for the first few weeks in my school uniform, because I hadn’t got any other clothes ... But yeah, I knew straight away it was what I wanted … it was good. Peter: I was very strange really thinking -­‐ this has sparked something else off -­‐ how strange the business was … how I actually started. I was still at school and I’d got an interview with William Clark, Avenue C and I gotta go down on the Saturday to meet a guy called Ernie Stockwood. And I went down on my first Saturday and he wasn’t there. Apparently he liked his drink. And so I went back to my dad, he was parked down by the Fox and Grapes, took me home. I arranged again, I went the following Saturday and the same thing (happened) and as I’m walking back up Avenue C with my head down Bill Heatly -­‐ my big boss at Blatherwicks -­‐ he shouted across, “Now then young man, what are you doing?” So I explained to him that I’d been … and he says, “Can you read and write?” and I says, “Ooh yes, I can,” and he says, “Right, come on then, let’s get you started.” I said, “Can I go tell my dad? He’s waiting at the 10 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. end.” And then I think I worked for about six Saturdays because I was still at school and then started and I was in. But that’s how it was -­‐ it was all so open. Roger: That’s how things happened, didn’t it? Peter: Not sitting an exam or whatever … Roger: I was going to leave the market after those two years. I’d got a job at a camera shop, god knows why, but they were going to show me all about it … And I happened to go round, because I used to go round to collect orders and I saw this guy, the boss at C.W. Tooley and I said, “I shan’t be seeing you again Mr Laurie,” and he says, “What’s up, son?” I said, “I’m leaving.” “Where are you going?” I told him, he says, “Do you want to do that?” I says, “I’m not sure.” He says, “Start here, Monday morning five o’clock, don’t be late.” So I got there and started working -­‐ I didn’t know what I was getting, no money. I mean, I was getting a fiver a week where I was, the last fifty pence or ten bob in the insurance and what have you. So when I got my wages on the Friday, seven pound ten pence -­‐ unbelievable! I had some great years and I stayed there till I was getting married and I realised that I needed to really step my life up a bit and I got a job as a junior salesman across the road. But you could work with somebody, you could be on ten pound a week, they could be on five pound a week, doing exactly the same job. The thing was, they paid you – Peter: What they thought you were worth. Roger: Yeah, there was no minimum wage or anything like that, you know … 18:47 Did that ever cause any animosity between workers? Roger: I never told anybody else what I got. 11 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Peter: No, everybody used to keep it to themselves. I mean, I had a similar story – I had a rise on my first week, so I must have made some impression, which I thought was a lot of money, but don’t forget it was a few years before Roger. He was going to start me on four pound a week. Anyway, the first Friday came round and I got four pound and ten shillings, he says, “You’ve been a good lad.” But bear in mind most of my pals were on apprenticeships and I think they only earned about three quid or something like that. Roger: My four and a half quid was actually at a decrease because while I was at school I worked in a fruit and veg shop at the weekends, Saturday and Sundays, so I’d already started when I was about twelve, and I did papers all the way through the week and papers on the Sunday, I got an extra pound for that. So I was earning like five fifty, tax-­‐free. 19:43 And this was in the early eighties, was it? Roger: Yeah … oh, no, before then. Long before then. Peter: About ’66, wasn’t it? Roger: I started in ’66 when I was fifteen, so it would be about ’62, ’63. 19:58 Oh this is great then, because we can use this for our sixties event! Peter, Steve and Roger laugh. Roger: I’ll not put my flares back on, I’ll tell you that! Steve: I don’t think I could fasten mine! 20:11 So you all started in the sixties, did you? 12 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: No -­‐ during the seventies, I actually worked in the motor trade and towards the back end, ’77 onwards, I got to know some good people that were working in the fruit and vegetable trade and socialising with them, got to know them quite well. Peter: Ted and George. Steve: Yeah, yeah … Anyway, towards the end of 1980, one of them owned a shop in Long Eaton and that became available and he asked me if I wanted to have a go at it. And of course an opportunity to try and do something for yourself, so I did it. And so I came out of the motor trade and motor finance industry and went into retail, fruit and veg and then obviously as the years passed by you get all your contacts down the market, so I met Pete, Roger and all the other people that were in the family, if you like. And … it all built from there for me. 21:10 I bet there were some real characters down the market. Steve: (Nodding towards Roger) Yeah, he was one of them! Peter: Milky Bar Kid! Steve: The great white shark! Laughter all round. Roger: Yeah, I was actually the Milky Bar Kid, in 1962 at the Theatre Royal, in the scout gang show. In 1962, I was the Milky Bar Kid. 21:30 You know, when you said blond hair and glasses I thought Milky Bar Kid, but I didn’t want to say anything! More laughter. 13 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: I used to come on every night and they’d say, “It’s the Milky Bar Kid!” and I used to come on and Nestle had sent me a proper suit – Peter: He still wears it! Roger: And I came on with a handful of chocolate, which you can’t do now because of health and safety, you can’t throw things into the audience. Peter: Oh, crikey! Roger: So I used to have to throw them out every night … yeah, that was my claim to fame. Steve: Pete tried to upstage him by auditioning for the Milk Tray advert! Laughter. Roger: There was some amazing characters on there. I’m thinking of people like Lol, who was what you would call somebody with learning difficulties now. And he was punch drunk actually, wasn’t he? Peter: He was a boxer. John Carrington? Roger: He would have his own little barrow and take things out for people and they’d give him a couple of bob. And one of his favourite sayings was, “No ’tatoes, no din-­‐dins.” And like Pete says, Johnny Carro, he was punch-­‐drunk, wasn’t he? I had a do with him … I didn’t know he’d been a boxer and he was a fair bit shorter than me and he come on one day I sort of told him to go away and somebody said, “So you know who that is?” “No, no idea.” They told me and that he’d been a real good boxer as well. So I was quite lucky there. 14 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. There was lots of characters, ladies as well. The lady mentioned earlier, Edna Sole*, she was an elderly lady. She used to come down with a little dog, a little poodle, I can’t remember what the name was. Anyway, she’d often get him to do his business, have a little wee on some potatoes and then she’d go to the salesman and she’d say, “How much are those potatoes? They’re looking a bit wet.” And it was her dog that had done it! * Edna Sole – Sneinton resident 1914 – 2002. Her poodle was called Sooty. Peter: Yeah, cocked its leg up! 23:33 It’s unbelievable that she’d still want to buy them! Roger: Well it was only one corner of one bag and she wasn’t bothered about what she sold anyway! There’s plenty weren’t there … Sylvia Pegg who … used to stand on the top market, she was a real strong woman. If she bid you, you started shaking … Peter: Clive Streets’ dad Ray – what a gentleman he was, he’d come down and he was immaculately dressed, a dickie bow and everything and you’d think, “Going to the market?” Mind, thinking back, we had to be smart, didn’t we? Roger: Yeah, we all wore a collar and tie. Peter: Yeah, well a bit before your time, Steve. I think I had about seven suits. Roger: On a Monday there was only the top market stood, the Sneinton market, and all the other guys from the markets, they always used to come down with their best clothes on to pay the bills. They’d come down and pay the bills and they’d go off and … I think in London you used to call them the costermongers, that sort of thing. One guy, a cracking guy, he never used to cause a lot of trouble, he liked to have a bid -­‐ he couldn’t read and write so he used to put his checkbook in and he’d say, “Can you just fill that in for me?” to the cashier and he’d sign it. He could read the numbers -­‐ if 15 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. it was one hundred and twenty three pound you put one hundred and twenty two, he could read that okay! There was a lot of people like that. I mean, I’ll be honest I couldn’t read and write very well and in fact even when I left, people said they couldn’t read what I was writing. Peter: He certainly couldn’t write very well – he could have been a doctor! Talking about coming and paying all the monies, I can remember Colin Gordon and he was always smart anyway, wasn’t he? And this particular Monday, he come out of the cash office ... and he’d got a spring in his step and he comes to the slope and slipped on a cabbage leaf and went straight under a lorry. And of course, everybody … big cheers go up and he got up and made out he’d done it on purpose. There was always a laugh, every day. Steve: But in that era there was trade, there was a lot of retailers, independent retailers. And of course over the years … from the mid-­‐eighties through to now, the supermarkets got bigger and bigger and bigger, gnawed away at that retail sector of the trade and it’s become increasingly more difficult as each year goes by for them to compete now. Roger: Almost impossible. Steve: So, there are still a few independent shops still around, but few and far between. And those that are trading generally speaking they own their own property so there’s no rent to pay and that’s a massive advantage. Peter: That’s true, so that really sums it up, what we’ve been – it’s gone, unfortunately. Steve: The next generation didn’t come through, did it? And eventually it died. Roger: But with regards to the top market, as we used to call it, the open market (in) Sneinton, I know when I first started in ’66 … you’d go up there on a Saturday after 16 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. work and it was absolutely vibrant and I think … there was people turned up on a Saturday morning and couldn’t get a pitch because there was so many. And there was all the regulars, you know, two or three fruit and veg people. There was a guy who had a shop on Alfreton Road that sold out of date tins and what have you, like B&M do now. There was the pot man who stood up on near the café. They lived down on Charlbury Road, where I lived. They looked almost like down in the London markets, they’d have the big washing baskets full of pots … They’d be banging them down, saying how good they were. I can remember buying a pair of leather Chelsea boots up there and I was so chuffed. They were the business -­‐ leather soles, leather top, they were the business. And I got home and I realised, I’d got two different shoes. They were the same size, but slightly different colour. But over the years I kept polishing them and they almost looked alike! Peter: Who’s got the other pair?! Laughter all round. Steve: You think back to when we went to the film show. There were a few slides at the market, weren’t there? I mean, it was absolutely rammed, with their hats on, I suppose that’s late eighteen hundreds. Roger: Every week … I’m certain there was people who didn’t get on. And the congestion, that’s what all made it better. Steve: The bustle, yeah. Roger: I can remember there was three fruit and veg – there was Sylvia Pegg, there was Bob Frost. And then there was another one down … I can’t remember what her 17 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. name was, husband and wife, they stood opposite the café, further along the … and I can’t remember what their name was, but there was at least three. And then the egg man, “Coo-­‐coo-­‐ca-­‐choo.” Steve: But that’s how … that’s how people shopped on a Saturday. The housewife would go out -­‐ husband get paid Friday, “Right, here’s you house keeping.” “Right, I’ve got to go to the butchers and the bakers and whatever.” And (they) did the rounds and that’s how it was, traditional – but that’s all changed now. Roger: The watch man who was on the film, he was there. Steve: Ooh yes. But it’s like, everything’s changed now. People sit at home on a day like this, not go out, and do it all online. Roger: There’s so few good open markets left now. I mean Sneinton isn’t particularly good at -­‐ you look at the weather and think -­‐ Hyson Green, they’ll be suffering. I think the best market round and about is Loughborough market. One of my sons lives that way and we go over a fair bit and it’s a lovely open market and there’s lots of variety … There’s four fruit and veg people over there, a butchers and a very good bakers, people who do takeaways, ready packed up -­‐ it’s a cracking market. But I think markets are becoming a thing of the past. If it’s nice weather, “Oh yeah, let’s go and have a look around the market.” If it’s siling itself down like it is today, “Well, shall we go to Tesco, or shall we go to Asda?” Steve: And of course there was no Sunday trading in those days as well, which was a big thing … I don’t know, when did Sunday trading really start, towards the end of the eighties, was it? That made a big difference as well, because … if people hadn’t got stuff by 5 o’clock on a Saturday, they pretty much had to go without until Monday. Roger: The fruit and veg shop I worked in when I was twelve, I mean, on a Sunday morning we used to open up and I used to clean all the bins out in the shop and 18 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. scrub the floor on my hands and knees. And the guy who owned it, he sat in the back doing his books. So while we were there, the door was open and sometimes we were very, very busy. Peter: If the doors were open, take money. Roger: And sometimes he’d say, “Leave the floor, we’re taking money.” And even at that age I’d be serving people because there was only him and me there. So his day off was Sunday afternoon and (he) probably fell asleep like he did most days when I was working there. Peter: It’s strange -­‐ I think the market to me has always been like a magnet because even now, well since I’ve been retired I’ve been all over the world because it was something I wanted to do. But when you were working six days a week, it was pretty much impossible. But what I was getting to -­‐ is that wherever you go abroad, if I see a market, I have to go and look round it. And I used to get Vonne to take a photograph. Roger: I was in Cardiff last week, we had a few days in Cardiff. And we walked down and I was like, “Ooh, a market.” I tell you, it was one of the best indoor markets I’ve ever seen – amazing. Mind you, I was really taken with Cardiff as well. Peter: It’s strange it is -­‐ it’s like a magnet. Roger: We’ve got one fruit and veg I think in the Victoria Market, the others have gone, haven’t they? Steve: Yeah. 32:19 So at the time you were working in the market, do you think there were any other markets in Nottingham that were comparable to Sneinton in terms of popularity or was that the place to go? 19 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: I think you’ve got to differentiate between wholesale market and the retail market. 32:40 The wholesale market was open six days a week, was it? Whereas the retail market was twice a week? Steve: Yeah, we were serving the retailers and the caterers on a daily basis and then the market used to be Saturdays and what? Peter: Saturdays and Wednesdays? 32:52 Saturdays and Mondays the last lady I interviewed said. Steve: Was it Monday? Yeah. Peter: So really there were two different operations going off. Roger: I don’t think I really appreciated that there was any other retail markets anywhere. Because where I was born and brought up in Radford … that’s all I knew. I didn’t really know Hyson Green or Lenton. Peter: Arnold, that was another good market. Roger: Dad didn’t have a car and that was the only market. It was quite amazing to have a walk round it. We didn’t finish early on a Saturday then anyway, but to just go and have a walk round and buy a pair of odd boots! Peter: Yeah, it’s strange, even on Saturdays, thinking back, Ted and I used to struggle sometimes on a Saturday to get down to see Forest kick off at three. Roger: I don’t think there was any other markets comparable in those days. 20 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Peter: Probably not. I think it was probably the leader, the one that had got the edge. 33:52 And did you allow haggling on the market? Peter: Ooh, allow it? It never stopped! Steve: That was part of the atmosphere. Roger: We still do it now. I got forty quid knocked off my hotel bill last week! Peter: That is something that doesn’t leave you. And it always, I think you find that the ladies connected, they get very embarrassed about it. “Don’t Pete, don’t.” “I’ve got to!” “You’re not that short, are you?” “No, but it’s …” Roger: The principle. Peter: The principle. 34:26 Because I’ve only haggled on markets abroad you see, I wouldn’t dream of doing it over here! Roger: On the wholesale, it was the done thing … You didn’t always get what you asked for. In fact, with me you very rarely got what you asked for. But in turn I used to do it to my suppliers and try to get a better deal … I know when we were getting married we went out to buy a bit of furniture, we hadn’t got a lot of money between us. I actually bid for our marital bed and my wife walked out the shop! But say, we still do it, don’t we? Peter: Yeah, you can’t help it. 21 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: Yeah if you don’t ask, you don’t get, you know. Peter: I think the hardest one for me was in Jessops -­‐ I worked so hard on that one. It was in the sale and it was a set of five, I think, Antler suitcases and they were very nice and they’d got a big reduction on them. I kept saying, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I can’t you know, it’s against my religion, I’ve got to get a little bit chivvied off.” Anyway, next thing is this young lady had brought the manager over and in the end I got a fiver off it. I was so excited. Roger: It was an every day and all day occurrence. There was a few people who would come down and accept … and if somebody came down on a regular basis and they accepted the price that you gave them, you didn’t ask for a bit more, you’d ask them the proper price and you would build up a relationship. There might be odd occasions when they’d say it was maybe a bit expensive or can’t really do anything or maybe we can blah, blah blah. But you tried to keep your customers satisfied. Steve: A lot of that was about relationships, wasn’t it? Roger: The whole business was. Steve: Obviously, I don’t know how many salesmen worked down there for the various companies, but a lot. Then you’ve got the buyers. So, you know, you might really get on with a guy at that company and perhaps he doesn’t like you at that company … and all that kind of thing counted. So it served you well to try and get on with everybody if you could. Peter: And a lot of that would be discussed in the caff, wouldn’t it? Steve: Oh yeah. 22 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: “Ooh, I understand you’ve taken one and six off your stall.” “How did you know that?” And you think, “Who did I charge? Oh, it must have been him, blabbermouth. Peter: Yeah, “Ooh, I won’t look after him tomorrow.” Roger: So yes … part and parcel of the business was haggling as you call it, bidding. 37:15 Did you ever catch anyone stealing down there? Peter: Oh yes. Steve: Rollers, you mean? Peter: Rollers. Steve: That’s what they’re called. Rollers, yeah. Roger: Not long before I retired, I caught somebody and I ran the full length of the market. I was in my early sixties. No, I would have been in my late fifties. And I copped him -­‐ he was a young lad. What they used to do, we had five departments, so they’d buy something maybe at three departments then go to the cash office and pay for two of the tickets. And I knew very well he hadn’t paid for mine … and he started running round. I thought, “He’d got a guilty conscience.” So I went across, everybody shouted, “Come on, come on, come on!” I was a bit out of puff. Anyway, I got there, he’d just got into his car – I opened the door, grabbed hold of him and dragged him out. He wasn’t English. “Why, why, what for?” I said, “Come on you, back!” and few choice words probably. He went and paid it, but we never saw him again … Steve: Rollers, really that involved the barrow lads mainly. So … they might have built up a bit of a relationship with somebody and let’s say they bought ten cases of 23 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. something, oranges or something, then there’d be another two go on the order and the recipient would get an extra two and then he might give him half the money as a treat, so you know -­‐ Roger: It was sackable -­‐ it was sackable. Steve: A lot of them did get sacked for it. Roger: But there was plenty of retailers who were willing to do it. Because say something was five pound and you could get an extra ten for two pounds a piece they were quids in, but it wasn’t worth doing. Peter: That’s just reminded me Anna, of when I first started on the big (Peter’s voice is masked by Steve’s cough) on the Saturday, they’d take me on, asking if I could read or write. And he says, “Right, would you like to become a salesman?” And I says, “Ooh yeah, that would be lovely.” But that meant you had to wait until somebody died, basically then. And so you’d start off clerking with the salesman, who happened to be the boss’s son. After a couple of weeks, “How are you getting on with it?” “Ooh yeah, alright.” And you had to be pretty sharp at doing your maths because there weren’t all computers in those days and calculators and everything. And he says, “Right, the next step then Pete if you want to progress,” he says, “I want you to work on the barrows and on the lorries and everything.” … “Oh, why’s that then Bill, have I done something wrong?” “Ooh no, no, no -­‐ I want you to know every aspect of the business.” He said, “So when you’re out on the lorries, and if they’re trying to get rid of rollers you know how they’re doing it and on the barrows,” and all this sort of thing. Which I did, and then after probably a month or so, I sort of went back in and I thought, “Hmm, this is a bit awkward.” So if I could see some … these are like your friends, do you bubble* them, you know? So I’d rather say what I didn’t do, ha ha! But that’s how it used to work and you’d think, “They’re paying me and they were looking after me pretty well.” * Rhyming slang. Bubble and Squeak = snitch on someone. 24 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. In fact another side of it -­‐ I can remember my first car. New car I had -­‐ brand new Ford Anglia, it was the business at the time -­‐ £484. I’d saved up a little bit, but the boss Bill says to me, “I’ll put the money in and you pay me back when you can. Not every week, when you can.” Anyway I did that and I kept giving fifty quid when I’d saved, fifty quid and I know it got towards the last fifty quid and I said, “I’ve got the money for you Bill.” He says, “You keep that for being a good lad.” You know, so I thought well it probably did pay me to be honest. Roger: That’s how bosses were, wasn’t it? Peter: Yeah, you wouldn’t get it now. Roger: If they took a shine to you. Peter: Yeah, you were under the wing, the family like … that was another part of it, which was good. So as a seventeen year old I’d got a brand new Ford Anglia, I was Jack the Lad. Which … wouldn’t pay insurance now, would it? 41:49 (Addressing Peter) Did you do similar things for your apprentices over the years then? Peter: I like to think I did, but I did have one or two naughties done to me as well, which … things were starting to change, unfortunately. Roger: I worked for Pete. Well, I’d like to think I worked with Pete. Peter: Yeah, I’d rather think of it that way. Roger: He was always very good to me and his brother-­‐in-­‐law, who worked in the same company. Yeah, they were very, very good to me. It was a big step up going to 25 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. work there and I really felt like I was working amongst friends there. You know, working alongside Pete, we had some good laughs. Steve: It used to be great in the office upstairs, didn’t it, after we’d finished? Roger: Oh yes. Steve: We was on the computers and there was all sorts of banter going off. I used to love that. Peter: Have you got the number seven Steve?* *Referring to the sales system on the computer. Roger: That was my first meeting with a computer. Because when I was at school I did pounds, shillings and pence initially. Steve: Tried to! Roger: And then in the last few years we did decimal. So when I joined in ’66, I didn’t know how to add up … and I was really struggling. The day we changed to decimal, there was only me (that) could add up, there was only me who knew what we’d got because I knew decimal, ’cause I’d done it in the last couple of years at school. And the first year, my wife then bought me a calculator and I took it to work. “What’s that then?” They didn’t trust it. There was one guy there he’d got -­‐ Peter: He was checking it out. Roger: I don’t suppose you would know, a ready reckoner? Peter: Ready reckoner. 26 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: It was a book that would give you all the – Peter: Tables. Roger: Tables and what have you and the boss would shout out “26 x 33!” and he’d be going through and, “Yeah, that’s right.” Lots of laughter. Steve: Are you sure it wasn’t an abacus? Roger: No, it was … was it Casino or something like that? Peter and Steve in unison: Casio, Casio yeah. Roger: I was about the first one on the market to have a calculator. Steve: Yeah, that would be early to mid-­‐eighties, wouldn’t it? Roger: It was ’71 wasn’t it, when we went decimal? Steve: Oh, when we went decimal, was the calculator around then? Roger: Yeah, yeah. Peter: I can remember when it came in, Bill Heatly, he sent Ted and myself to go to night school to learn about it. So we went the first time and thought, “We’ve got this sussed.” So we carried on, because we were getting paid and we got to go to the Burleigh on expenses. Roger: It was a big plus for me, that was. 27 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: It was a quick learning curve. Who was that guy who bought that Cape Rock that time?! Collective groan and laughing. Roger: Oh, that’s another story. Peter: Go on then, tell the story. Steve: No, no, you can tell it, you tell everybody else. Peter: I’d rather it come from you, so … Steve: Well, Pete and I … at Fresh Fruit, Pete and I worked together on the vegetable side and I hadn’t been there all that long, and Pete said to me, “I’m going away for a week,” or whatever it was … “You’ll be alright.” Anyway, we dealt with a guy – Peter: Harold Rickett. Steve: Harold Rickett, yeah – very good supplier and I was looking to buy some broccoli off him … some er, cauliflower off him one morning for the next day’s delivery. But cauliflower supplies were short. Roger: It was a Saturday morning. Steve: Was it? Oh, bloody hell. Anyway, I thought, “What the blimmin’ hell do I do now?” Harold says, “Oh, I’ve got some nice Cape Rock, that’ll sell.” Well I hadn’t got a clue what it was. So I says, “Go on Harold, sell me a couple of pallets.” … So the next morning it arrived … Roger: Like a purple cauliflower … popular now. Steve was about thirty years too early! 28 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Snorts of laughter. Steve: Anyway, course, couldn’t sell the bloody stuff, could I? I can’t remember what happened to it -­‐ probably George took it down the cattle market. And it’s lived with me now for thirty years. Roger: More, more than thirty years. * At this point Anna asks for clarification over the name Cape Rock. Peter: Every time we go out, it’s like, “Can you remember when Steve bought the Cape Rock?” Roger: There’s certain things that always come up aren’t there, and that’s normally one of them. Peter: I can remember another time when I was away on holiday and Andy Booth stepped in and I come back and there’s about twenty tonnes of scotch ’tatoes in the rack and they’ve all got wet and they were dripping. And he’d say, “Yeah, but Pete, the weather’s hot, they’ll all be going up.” Steve: It wasn’t an easy trade, I mean, even really experienced people didn’t always get it right, did they? Peter: No, no. Steve: Trying to read the market … Roger: You weren’t always in charge. I mean, my Dutch sender, who was very good and I got all my tomatoes and peppers and everything -­‐ I did salads when I was with 29 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Pete. Often, if the lorry wasn’t full up, he’d put a couple of pallets of cabbages on, you know -­‐ the big hard white cabbage. Peter: Dutch White. Roger: We got over to the warehouse and there was pallets and pallets and pallets. And I says to him, “Will you stop sending cabbage?” “Well, it’s better to fill the lorries up and it not make any money than send them half empty.” But I don’t see it, I don’t see it! Pete certainly didn’t. And we sat there trimming this cabbage … day after day and the lad who worked for us, Steven or Sooty -­‐ Peter: Sooty. Roger: “How many we got to do today, Pete?” “Well, if you can do us about twenty bags before you go home.” Peeling this damn stuff off! 47:32 So where did all the excess food go that was either over-­‐bought or didn’t sell? Roger: Top market. Steve: There were always takers, there’s a guy on the cattle market -­‐ he was usually around to sweep up. Roger: George. Steve: There were some things that had to be a certain quality to go into a retail shop. But the markets, although they wanted to sell quality, they’d got a bit of scope to sell stuff that wasn’t quite up to scratch and they had most of it. Roger: A lot of it went on a Saturday morning up to the top market. Sylvia Pegg, particularly. But you probably always got a little bit left over -­‐ I know one year I’d 30 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. overdone it on Brussels sprouts, and I ended up taking like sixty, seventy bags of Brussels sprouts up to Arnold market … saying, “Look mate, I’m in a bit of a state here.” “I’ll do what I can for you.” And actually he did a very good job for me … Not very often you got to throw things. Steve: Not really actually completely wasted, very rare. Roger: It was only in the later days when we had the Ministry of Agriculture -­‐ DEFRA -­‐ come down and tell you that something wasn’t fit for sale. Then you had to put it in the bin and that was cruel. Steve: Or didn’t fit the EU Spec -­‐ “Your apples are too small,” or “They’re not the right colour.” Peter: It’s not labeled properly, you know. Roger: Perfectly good food and that was criminal. And even if it was a bit on the turn, there was a living for someone to be had out of it. And I had a very good friend, a lady who had escaped Poland in World War Two and some of the things that she told me about how she used to feed herself and I’d think – all that food, we threw away. 49:23 My Nana escaped Poland in World War Two as well, so I know this very well. Roger: It was criminal and it did hurt. Well, it didn’t only hurt inside -­‐ it hurt your pocket as well. Peter: Yeah, pain in the pocket. 49:42 So would you eat for free from the market, did that sustain you? Roger: Oof, God bless my soul. 31 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Peter: Could we answer that, could we answer that! Roger: God bless my soul. Yeah, I’d got two very fit young lads, mainly because they were brought up on a hell of a lot of fruit and veg. They both still eat a lot of fruit and veg. In fact, one of the wives, she’s very, very into all her quinola* or the other name that you call it and black beans and all that stuff. Yeah, we did, didn’t we? *Quinoa. Peter: We ate well. Roger: We ate very well. Peter: Yes. 50:16 Did you ever get sick of fruit and veg? Roger: No, no no, ’cause I suppose we ate in seasons … Steve: I can always remember the first green beans coming in from Worcester … “Ooh, I’ll have to sample these to know how good they are.” ’Cause they were tender -­‐ Peter: Well, you’ve got to try something, haven’t you? You can’t sell something if you don’t know it. Roger: I don’t think since I left work I’ve had more than two or three plates of asparagus. Whereas when I was at work we used to (have it) three or four times a week. There you go. 50:54 So did you used to go to the pubs in Sneinton? 32 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Peter: I went to the Fox and Grapes probably half a dozen times in the whole time I was down there. Steve: I went once, that was on a Monday morning, the day after my daughter was born. And it was in January and there was two or three people and we went in and had a quick whisky and got back out to work again. Roger: Well, one of the places I went to work for was dead opposite the Fox and Grapes and I was actually sales manager there then and that was when they decided that they were actually opening at 6 o’clock in the morning which was for the market people, allegedly. I got all our staff together and I said, “Look, the pub’s open from six o’clock in the morning, anybody who’s found drinking in there will be instantly sacked.” I said, “Because, you know, we’re just not having it. Alcohol has got a place, but certainly not when we’re at work.” And we never did have to … and hardly any market people went in there – Steve: No -­‐ too busy anyway. Roger: It was all the people from the clubs. Peter: They used to come from the nightclubs and go there, say Saturdays -­‐ Roger: How many times did we see them coming down past us? One day, we couldn’t believe our eyes, there was a young lady walking by -­‐ Peter: One Saturday morning wasn’t it? Roger: There was this woman walking by in her knickers and she’d got no skirt on! Well-­‐built young lady, as I remember. Peter: Well you would do with those glasses. Four eyes! 33 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Laughter all round. Roger: I did like a pint of beer, not to excess, but no … Steve: That was the only time I ever went in -­‐ Peter: Thinking back I’d say I’ve probably been in six times, I think it was the novelty of it – folks come visiting or suppliers or whatever, they’d all heard about it, that there was a pub on site at the market. And they were like, “Ooh, go and have a sampling.” Roger: There wasn’t many workers went in there, maybe some retailers, but I don’t think they did … there was a couple who’d probably got drink problems who did go in, but they in turn would lose their license. So no, no. 53:08 So you’d tend to drink in your local areas then, or were you too busy working to go to the pub? Steve: The problem is, or the problem was, if you were starting work at half two, three o’clock in the morning, you couldn’t even go out for a drink at night, because you’d got to drive to work ... I mean, there was a couple that got nicked, driving to work the next morning. Kenny Shipstone got done, didn’t he? So to be honest, from a social life point of view, family life, it was the wrong trade to be in. Peter: Definitely. Roger: I know when I was eighteen, nineteen and I used to go out and about, a bit of a Jack the Lad, seeing the ladies and what have you. Quite often it’d be eleven o’clock by the time I got home and my dad -­‐ because I worked with my dad then -­‐ he’d come up, “Now this is the last time I’m going to wake you up, if you don’t get up I’m leaving you there and you’ll lose a day’s pay.” And I’m … “Yeah, okay,” – 34 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. blurry eyed and when I was going out with my now wife we’d go to dos and what have you and go straight to work from partying and whatever. You’d be in a bit of a state! Steve: ’Cause when I was in the retail side, you used to be down the market four o’clock in the morning, right, and you wouldn’t get home ’till six o’clock, you’d close the shop up, do whatever and get home. It was fourteen hours a day, six days a week. Roger: Christmas time, well … Steve: Well, you may as well not bother going to bed. Peter: You about lived there, didn’t you? You couldn’t make a mistake on anybody’s order, could you? Roger: No. When my lads were old enough to go drinking, we used to go out like Christmas Eve. And I can remember two or three times, “Come on Dad, wake up, we’re taking you home.” “It’s only eight o’clock?” “Yeah, but you’ve been asleep for an hour.” And they’d take me home -­‐ you’d just be so shattered. You’d work from midnight the night before till whenever that day. And then … yeah, you’ve got to go out for a drink with the lads, all the local lads, ’cause I knew all the young lads as well, “Oh, it’s great you’ve come out Rog,” and all that, then “Zzzzzz!” (Imitates snoring). Steve: I was well known in the family that I could sleep anywhere at the time, if we had a family do or something. “Bloody hell look, Steve’s asleep again.” Roger: My mates always used to go away at the weekend and they use to call me sixpence, because they would say I could sleep on an old sixpence. And I often did, I’d fall asleep … 35 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: Very tiring, very tiring, especially in the winter when the weather was rubbish -­‐ horizontal rain and trying to get the sheets out to cover your stock up and everything. Bloody hell. Peter: I can remember a bit closer, what, five years ago, this very place at this table … We’d just finished Christmas and Vonne had done me a nice steak, chips and everything. I sat down and thought “Great!” and of course we’d got the heating on at that time of year and she says, “I’d spent all that money on a beautiful steak and he falls asleep with his knife and fork!” Well that’s how tired … but you’d done it and you’d finished and I suppose you’d just relax. Roger: I hope we’re not going on too much, but the fact is, we just love the business and love talking about it. 56:23 No, that’s great, I’m happy to hear. Peter: Without you here we’d be talking about it still. Roger: Yeah we would, the Cape Rock would have come up at least once. Laughter all round. Peter: Yes, there’s a lot of mileage in it. Steve: Well, there’s one or two people have labels attached to them down the market, like Ginge, it forever … Roger mentioned potholes in the road and whatever, poor old Ginge, if he got a pallet or strawberries or mushrooms on the end of his forklift, he was the one to go through the pothole and he’d be down. Roger: There was an accident. He worked with me at Fyffes, he was a lovely guy but like again, he was a little bit behind in the learning probably … One day we handed out safety knifes because we belong to a national company, well, an international 36 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. company, we’ve got to be seen to be doing the right thing. So these are safety knives so you stop cutting your fingers. “Ginger, what are you doing?” He’d taken his apart and slit his finger open. More laughter. Roger: As I was the first aid man, I wrapped it up and took him down to Queens, got him sorted. Took him home, his wife was at the door -­‐ “What the so-­‐and-­‐so has he done now?” She knew very well when I turned up, that … Peter: There was … sorry Roger to cut you off there, just to change the subject slightly – there was one or two people got turned over with their money and that, weren’t there? Breaking into trucks and money being stolen. I can always remember one Friday morning when we were at Fresh Fruit, we were packing away and I heard this scream come across from Geest, across the way. I thought, “The shutters are down the lads are messing about, they’ve upset the girls,” or whatever. Anyway, it turned out there was a bloody armed robbery in progress. Can you remember that, the shutters were down? Nobody knew about it! Roger: Across from the market, where the Nat West bank is, there was one or two people used to park there on a regular basis. If they bought anything and you was on the barrows you took your life on your hands going across Parliament Street. But there was one or two got broke in there. And there was a guy that used to come down, a body builder, that used to work the doors a lot, a really fit guy. He weren’t particularly big – Steve: Trev, you’re on about? Peter briefly leaves the room. Roger: Trevor, he could handle himself. They set him on to find out who it was. Anyway, he got the guy, gave him a right pasting. 37 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: Yeah, George had money pinched out of his trolley all the time. Roger: He enjoyed it – he just enjoyed inflicting pain on people. God rest his soul, he died a few years back because Pete and I went to his funeral. Dear oh dear, I felt … I mean I’m 6ft 2½ and I just felt like a midget in there. Because there was all these ex-­‐
doormen in there with their big black coats on and I’m looking all the way up like this all the way, they were massive. But he was not that tall, about 5ft 6, 5ft 8 something like that, but he couldn’t half handle himself. He’d done a lot of bodybuilding – he was Mr. Nottingham and he went in Mr. Universe and all those sorts of things. Steve: He could sort things out, definitely. Roger: I can remember Pete having a bit of a … I’ll tell you while he’s not here -­‐ he had a bit of a to-­‐do with a guy. This guy wound him up something … and Pete was quite fit – well, he still is for seventy and he’d just given him a little right jab. And this guy rolled down his samples and shook himself off and Trevor was there, like, “Pete, can I hit him now, can I hit him now?” “Trevor, stop it, leave him alone!” and this guy went off. It was just a short sharp jab from Pete, but it did the job. Steve: Yeah, all the characters. I’m surprised actually ... we went to the film show, and we’ve had the discussion today, but nobody’s ever mentioned, or it’s (not) come out about the landlord being murdered in the Fox and Grapes in whatever year that was. Peter returns to the room. 60:37 No, I don’t know about that – tell me. Steve: Oh yeah, as yet still unsolved. Nineteen sixty …what did I say, that it happened on Pat’s 21st? 38 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Peter: 1964? Roger: No, I think it was before then, because I can remember my dad coming home and saying, “I’ve been interviewed by the police.” Peter: Yes, I was, twice! Steve: Oh yeah, the landlord at the Fox and Grapes was murdered one night, wasn’t he? In fact, it’s not that long ago that they reconstructed it on East Midlands Today because it was fifty years ago. Roger: They never found -­‐ Steve: Actually, when I saw the reconstruction and … whoever did it was supposed to have jumped off the roof of the caff and got the guy while he was down by the dustbins. And that area is still there and you think, Christ, I’m standing down near where this murder … 61:23 How was he killed then? Was he strangled, was he stabbed? Peter: Stabbed. And they came down and they drained every one of the drains around the market. And I think they got about two and a half thousand knives! Roger: It was headline … nowadays if someone gets killed it’s like, “Oh, I see, yeah, who’s next?” But then it was headline news. Steve: That’s a renowned case really in Nottingham, never mind the market. Where are we now? … She always told me, “That happened on my 21st birthday.” Peter: Yeah, you mentioned that on the phone to me the other day. Steve: I think 1964, or something like that. 39 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: Yeah, I think ’64* it was. Steve: As yet, never been solved. * The murder of George Wilson took place on 8th September 1963. http://www.itv.com/news/central/update/2013-­‐09-­‐08/anniversary-­‐appeal-­‐for-­‐
information-­‐over-­‐brutal-­‐murder/ 62:03 So were there suspects, rumours going round? *** A new audio session starts here *** All: No. Steve: If you look on the Internet, you’ll get the information to … Peter: Why I got roped in twice, I think we pretty much all got interviewed, didn’t we? Roger: I know, I mean – ’62, I was only born in ’51. Steve: It couldn’t have been you then, could it? Peter: Anyway, so I was interviewed about it and then at the time my sister was going out with a guy from Mapperley, Bill Clark his name was and the police asked folks to come forward, anybody in the area. Which he went forward – he’d seen my sister in town and was going home, passing the market and they’d sort of connected him and me with the market and I got brought in again, you know. I think it was all because he (the victim) was watering the beer down wasn’t it as well? Roger: It’s also known as the Pretty Windows, the Fox and Grapes. 40 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. 1:03 Ah, right -­‐ that was Peggers as well, wasn’t it? Was that later it was Peggers? Roger: Yes, that was because outside there had been pegs, where they used to hang their game … That’s why it was called Peggers. Peter: Pheasants. 1:18 Ah, so we’re talking about the same pub, right. Steve: Yes, I don’t know what it’s called now. Peter: In the building itself you’ll see there’s a fox’s head with grapes around it. And that’s where the Fox and Grapes -­‐ Steve: I think it’s some sort of hostel now, isn’t it? You can’t buy a pint there -­‐ it’s some sort of hostel. Roger: It’s been various things -­‐ it was a drug den for quite a while. Steve: But yeah … you’ll get a lot more off the Internet about it. It is as yet unresolved. 1:45 I’ll have a look. Peter: And the Salvation Army at the back on the wholesale market, called the Big House. That used to be quite comical – you’d often get a policeman, knocking the manager up and holding somebody up and saying, “No, he’s alright, he’s not too drunk, he can come in.” 41 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: Often when you went round the back to load up they’d be hanging out and you’d have a bit of banter -­‐ well, more than a bit of banter because you knew very well they couldn’t get down the stairs. “You scruffy old blighter,” or whatever. Peter: Because the lorry park was at the back, where we used to unload all the lorries. (Peers at the recorder) Are we still going? 2:25 I think so, yes. Steve: What about the other one? Peter: What? Steve: Well you told me somebody spoke to you last week. Peter: Oh, the murder? Oh crikey yeah, John Bainbridge …. Steve: Are we going to mention that? Roger: Oof, ooh dear. Steve: We know of another one as well, but not down the market. And it turned out that the guy who was eventually captured -­‐ because it took the police quite a while, didn’t it, to sort it all out? Actually, he had been working with us … and then used a knife that belonged to one of our customers to commit the murder. So that was mid-­‐
eighties, weren’t it? Peter: Yes. Roger: There’s been one or two naughties and I suppose more recently we’ve had the Chris George saga, where he was unfortunately abusing his children. He worked in the same company as me and nobody had got any inkling about it. 42 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Peter: It was exactly the same as John Bainbridge, nice, good hardworking lad. Steve: But he was hyperactive, John Bainbridge, he was hyper. Peter: Yes, he was. You don’t know … Steve: You don’t know what’s … Peter: Their other side. Roger: I suppose when there’s so many people, so many people have got this and so many people will do that … Steve: What happened to Chris George in the end then? Roger: He got quite a long term sentence. I don’t know if he is … still in, I would hope so.* Steve: Yeah, he’s gotta be, hasn’t he? *Chris George was jailed in 2013 for 19 years, later reduced to 17 on appeal. Roger: I hope so, but anyway, on to better, nicer things. Steve: Move on, yeah. Peter: Anything else on the list? 4:00 Well, we’re almost at the end of the battery and almost at the end of the questions! Just thinking about looking forwards, and the future for the market, 43 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. what do you think – if anything – could be done to improve what’s down there now? Roger: Nothing really. Peter: I see that as a hard question, because unfortunately, like we’ve touched on -­‐ Roger: It’s weather. Peter: Well, yeah, that certainly -­‐ Roger: It’s weather. You know, do you really want to walk around an open market? There’s no need to. Peter: But they had to, didn’t they? Steve: In the olden … take someone who was selling clothes or whatever. Particularly like ladies stuff, blouses and skirts and things like that, you know -­‐ they’d have rail after rail after rail and they’d be £1.50, £2, right? They’re 99p in TK Maxx or somewhere and they can’t compete any more -­‐ the market’s gone. Roger: And it’s warm and dry and you pull your car up and you walk in and you can go and get a cup of coffee and pick your bread and your milk up. I like going round … as I say, I go down Loughborough market quite a bit. You find the clothes stores, particularly are getting more and more covered in. They’re putting these gazebos up and what have you, but I can’t see -­‐ Steve: Competition is immense. Roger: Like Steve says, you can go to Lidl and Aldi and what have you and buy your fruit and veg. You know, your specials on there. 44 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: I’d say Lidl prices, right -­‐ Roger: They’re cheaper than wholesale. Steve: Well, yeah, but they’re retail prices from thirty-­‐five years ago, Roger. Roger: But the problem is in the wholesale market, if you’re selling tomatoes at £3 on a Wednesday, Thursday and you’re doing okay, but then maybe the weather gets really good -­‐ all of a sudden everybody wants tomatoes, so when you go back to buy them, you might be paying £3.70, £3.80. So when people come on Friday morning and you ask them £4.20, £4.50 they’re like, “What?” … Well, that doesn’t happen in supermarkets, they get a set price a week and you get beat hands down. Steve: If you take a week like this, when the weather’s iffy – strawberries are about now, right? So if the weather is good, the supply of strawberries into the wholesale market is restricted because (of) the amount coming to all the supermarkets, they want it. On a week like this now … and they might buy a week, well they’d have buying programs, wouldn’t they? This week they won’t be wanting them. So in the old days what happened, they’d say to their suppliers, “Oh, we only want half of what we’ve ordered and they used to send it down to the likes of us to try and sell it. And we just hadn’t got the demand either. Roger: The price you paid on a Tuesday for strawberries, particularly as Steve mentioned that, it would be double what you would pay on a Friday, Saturday, but you couldn’t buy extra. Peter: Because it wouldn’t stand. Roger: Okay, nowadays you’ve got refrigeration, but as we always used to say, when stuff goes into a fridge it doesn’t get any better, it starts deteriorating. Peter: It’s not the hospital.* 45 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. * ie: When something goes in refrigeration in the hospital, it’s had its day. Roger: That’s another phrase, it’s not the hospital. As soon as it comes in through the back door, delivered, it starts deteriorating. But I can’t think of any way that retailers could improve. Peter and Steve: No. Peter: Unfortunately, I’m sure the three of us here would love to be able to – Steve: Well we went down the self service route in the early eighties, there was a lot of people still serving people coming in and then the self service thing came in – what was the name of that company that used to sell … Nuthalls. Right, he’d been over to America and brought all these idea, right -­‐ “I’m gonna fit all your shops out, self service.” And it was good -­‐ it did work. But the supermarkets have even got ahead in that now. They’ve got sprays haven’t they, for the salads in Morrisons -­‐ Roger: It doesn’t work on an open market, self-­‐service. Steve: You just … and then there’s all the employment legislation that’s come in. To have an independent shop now whether it’s in this trade or not, it’s so hard now. Roger: No, personally, it’s really sad as Pete said, I can’t think of any way that they could improve. Peter: I wish they could. I think unfortunately as well, if you mention that name, market, folks automatically think “Cheap, cheap, cheap.” And they can’t do it. Steve: And the councils have not been slow in putting up rents and imposing this restriction and that restriction. And the hurdles have got … there’s more of them and they’re getting higher. 46 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: Newark market, you’ve only got to have a breath of wind, and you get, “The market’s cancelled today.” Steve: And you’ve got on the market and bought all your bloody stock. Roger: It might be a bit dangerous, you know, health and safety, the stalls might -­‐ Peter: How many times has that happened to Clive Streets? Roger: He goes over because he’s bought his stuff, sells it down the back of his lorry. Which is hard work … See Newark market is quite nice, but it is deteriorating. Steve: They all are. 9:32 So do you think the future of the market lies more in the one-­‐off events that can be put on down there, rather than focusing on retail produce? Steve: Summat’s something’s got to be bolted on to get people to go. Peter: And slightly different, marketed differently, like in Bridgford this weekend* they’ve sent out a brochure somewhere and you know … * The Rushcliffe food festival. Steve: And of course, money’s been spent on revamping that area now, which happened to be two-­‐thirds Euro money … from the EU. Roger: Ooh, don’t start Steve, don’t start!* *The EU referendum was six days prior to this interview. 47 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: I’m just mentioning it! But there was a young lady on BBC Radio Nottingham on Sunday, John, er, what’s his name? John … John Holmes, on his show. And she’s just started a new business down there, but they’re not allowed to take money over the counter, are they? Roger: Are they not? Steve: No, there’s some sort of regulation about taking money. And it’s all to do -­‐ Peter: It’s not against the law you know. Steven: It’s not. It’s like going to Argos where you go and pay at a pay point and then go get your gifts. And it’s to stop the likes of the big multiples, like Starbucks and whatever taking units down there, to stop them being able to trade. Roger: I had that, I worked on Goose Fair one year and the guy I worked with, I shan’t mention his name, he didn’t trust anybody, he didn’t trust his shadow. So we served people then we had to go to a point and give him the money and tell him … Well, he was getting on my nerves, because I’m used to it being bustling. And I’m serving people, putting money into my pouch and going over and saying, “Six whatever,” and he accused me of stealing. And you know, I wasn’t – all I was trying to do was get as many people served as possible. And I thought, well, if I’d served six people in that time, I might have served two if I’d got to go back and there was like half a dozen of us, you’d got to queue up to give him the money. It was criminal. But no, I’m sorry, I can’t think of anything … unless it’s another event – Steve: And then you’re reliant on the weather. You’ve could have the best … I don’t know, you could have a top act turn up and if it rains -­‐ Roger: And look at this one on Wollaton Park*, you’ve got a good line up this year – Jess Glynne, (The) Darkness. 48 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. *Splendor Festival. Steve: Shirley Bassey? Roger: No, she’s not on, she’s somewhere else. But you know -­‐ you’ve got to buy your tickets in advance … I can listen to it from my back garden, because I remember when the Corrs were on a few years ago. Peter: Cheapskate! Laughter all round. Roger: I didn’t charge the people who came in. Steve: You charged them for the recordings, you mean! Peter: I can remember when we used to go out the back door when the Lombard Rally used to go through Wollaton Park. Roger: Yeah, when we lived the other side of Wollaton Park, you could get in through the back garden. Peter: That was great. Roger: We used to go in to watch the car rally, two years running, didn’t we? Steve: Anyway, we’re digressing, the battery’s running out and there’s still questions! 12:44 Oh no, no, I’m at the end, unless there’s anything else that springs to mind? 49 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: I think it’s the end of an era some way or another. Ideas have got to come forward to try and invigorate some new ideas, but it won’t replace what’s gone. Roger: All the people that have gone out of business in the Victoria Centre which is under cover and really probably a lot better environment, although it’s probably not in the right place, tucked away over there. But, you know, if they’ve gone out of business, where you haven’t got to go out in the cold and the wet, you know, what chance has it got for people who … you know? Steve: Well, people wouldn’t shop in there because they’ve got to carry it. You know, and being charged five pence each for a carrier bag, walk round Victoria Centre and whatever, down the lift and into the car park. So I’m not surprised that ... you know. Roger: When that first opened up there was an open market in the Vic Centre, which you probably wouldn’t remember. And a lot of the people out the old central market went in there. And that’s where the bargains were to be had, but they didn’t last long … as the people died off and they ended up enclosing it in the rest of the market. 14:01 So what era was that then? Roger: When it first opened, when was it, in the sixties when the Vic Centre opened? Peter: I’m not sure, Rog. 14:10 It was ’73 I think?* *The Victoria Centre was in fact opened in ’72. Roger: Was it? Well they had the Victoria market, but then they had an outdoor bit as well, where people pitched their covers up. I can remember one or two. Larvins, that’s who was stood around the corner. 50 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Steve: Yes, Herbert Larvin, well done Rog. Roger: And he was on the top market, Herbert Larvin -­‐ that was the other one I was thinking about. There was one or two stood up there, but it didn’t take -­‐ people wouldn’t go out there. There was no need -­‐ there was inside. Steve: Position, position, position. Peter: I think summing it up, basically people have changed and their shopping habits have changed. Roger: Well, I think we all have, we all have … If I’d told my dad I was going down the supermarket to buy a paper and a pint of milk, he’d have looked at me gone out, you know? And not only that … I’m very much a cash person -­‐ cash is king, and if we don’t use it, we lose it. And people go there and will have bought a bottle of milk, sorry, a carton of milk and a paper and (they’re) paying with their damn card and that does wind me up! Peter: Ooh, it does me. The other day, £1.67 and the guy’s messing about, “Ooh not that card, I’ll use this card.” “Don’t you have money?” Roger: I got to give my daughter in law money yesterday because we’re going on holiday with them, for the accommodation. Peter: Are you paying, Rog? Roger: I’m only paying (Roger’s words are masked by laughter). And I actually put some money down. Peter: “Oh, right, what’s that?” 51 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: Yeah, because she’s a card person … When I go to do my shopping, I go to the cash point, get the cash out, then do my shopping and then pay by the cash that I’ve got out of the cash point. And for my diesel. Peter: Do you get your green shield stamps as well? Roger: No, I get my Tesco points. I actually got my points doubled up for once. Peter: Ha, ha -­‐ well done. Roger: No, we’re all a bit old-­‐fashioned. Well, apart from Steve, he’s a bit more technical. Steve: Actually … you’ve got two sons, I’ve got two daughters, Pete’s got two daughters -­‐ my daughters just encourage me, especially when the grandkids came along and sent you photographs and videos. Roger: I got an iPad for Christmas and I (Steve’s cough masks Roger’s words.) Peter: I think my girls have just given up with me! Roger: I use it to listen to music -­‐ I’ve got Spotify. Peter: Well, there you go, I wouldn’t know what to do. Steve: I’m impressed Rog. Roger: When Ben came over, “Oh, just do that Dad, press that.” “Ah, okay mate.” Steve: I can tell you now, the stock market’s still climbing. 52 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Roger: I told you it would. Have you got time to look at this? (Shows me a DVD containing a feature about the market taped off the TV news). 17:04 Yeah, that would be fantastic. Roger: If Pete can use his DVD player, or Steve? Peter: I shall try, yes. 17:10 Unless there’s anything else you’d like to say? Peter: I’d just like to add myself, that I feel quite honoured that what we’ve been talking about, it’s been a very special time for me, and I’ve loved every minute of it, and it’s been great. And I don’t know anybody else that’s been in any other industry who can say the same. Roger: Yeah, I feel quite emotional. Steve: They’re good memories, aren’t they? Tough times sometimes. Roger: You miss them sometimes. Peter: Course you do. Roger: Okay, we got wet, we got cold, your fingers split, my hands used to bleed sometimes, you know. But yeah, it was fantastic, 44 ½ years. Peter: Yeah, it was, it was -­‐ only like it was yesterday. Thank you very much. 27:58 Wow, brilliant thank you ever so much. Round of applause. 53 Peter Buttery, Steve Pollock & Roger Williams. Stories of Sneinton Market. Interviewed and transcribed by Anna Cotton. Peter: Very good, shall I put the kettle on? Roger: Yeah, you get the kettle on! 54