Interchange Conference Transcript
I:\DIWE5NET\CLASSES\kwong03\CHAT\Athletics
[Message #1 09:09:17 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Copy and paste your response to one of the five assigned questions for “A Doll’s House” from 480-481:
2,3,4,5 or 8.
[Message #2 11:09:11 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Raya Mesias:
Question #3:
On a number of occasions, Nora recalls her father. What relevance do these recollections have to the
development of the theme?
In "A Doll's House" by Henrik Ibsen, Nora, the housewife, realizes an important connection
between the kind of life that she had with her father and the life that she has with her husband in which
that the connection reveals the theme of the play.
After the party, Nora desperately tries to persuade Torvald to stay a while longer as to prevent
him from reading the letter that Krogstad wrote concerning the bank loan that Nora forged, allowing her
money to spend on Torvald's recovery in Italy. And after her hesitations and rejections toward her
husband's advances to be alone with her, Torvald decides to read some of the letters that wait in his
office box, and very soon after he discovers Nora's secret. And with this, he bursts out with an
explanation full of disappointment and feelings of betrayal toward his wife, in that with all of his moral
standards and expectations, believes strongly that such an act entitles the one responsible to be seen as
unreliable and untrustworthy. However, just after a short while, Krogstad sends another letter,
resenting the first and all of the intentions of ruining the Helmer's reputation, giving back Nora the
bond. Nora then realizes that with Torvald's initial reaction, her life with him and the children have no
meaning. She explains that: "When I was at home with papa…He called me his doll-child, and he played
with me just as I used to play with my dolls…I have existed merely to perform tricks for you, Torvald…It
is your fault that I have made nothing of my life…our home has been nothing but a playroom. I have
been your doll-wife, just as at home I was papa's doll-child; and here the children have been my dolls…"
(Ibsen, Act 3) She explains that her life is of nothing due to fact that she does not who she is as a person.
She tells Torvald that she has been married and living with a stranger in a strange place for eight years
and that she must educate herself with the reality of the world to achieve self-knowledge and
fulfillment. Therefore her resolution is to rid herself of all that she has ever known-her society, her
family, the social pressures that have oppressed and hindered-and figure out who she really is.
The theme of this play is represented through the means of a doll, in that Nora represents
herself as a "plaything" that is supposed to be a replica of "what should be seen" of society's pressures
and expectations about women-that they should be dutiful to their husbands and children but never
true to themselves because that would entitle them a power that men have known for a long time-the
freedom to choose and think for oneself. Henrik Ibsen's play empowers women in such a way that he
tells them that one should not inhibit their self-growth in the restrictions that society puts them in, but
to learn and grow from challenging them.
[Message #3 11:21:58 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Matthew Juan:
2. In the first meeting with Nora and Mrs. Linde it tells us a little bit of the type of person that Nora is. As
they both conversate on their past and catch up on each others lives, Nora seems a bit immature and
brags a bit of how much money they have now, how her husband has been promoted to a better job,
and how she has beautiful children. Nora explains “So your are quite alone. How dreadfully sad that
must be. I have three lovely children” (428 Ibesen). Here you can hear that she begins to brag a bit
about how her life is not going as bad as her friend Mrs. Linde. Later on Mrs Linde states “Yes, anyhow I
think that it would be delightful to have what one needs.” Nora responds with “No, not what one needs,
but heaps of money’(428 Ibsen). You can see that Nora has become spoiled by her husband, that all she
wants is to have more money. She then tries tto show that she has done work as well and explains to
Mrs Linde that it was not her father that helped in paying for Torvald health it was her. “Now I will show
you that I too have something to be proud and glad of. It was I that saved Torvald’s life”(431 Ibsen). You
can see that Nora wants to receive some credit and brags that it was her that saved her husbands wife.
She seems to have to compare here achievements to Mrs. Linde. You can sense that Nora still contains
immature characteristics in ways of bragging and comparing herself from others to seem better.
[Message #4 11:22:04 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Patricia Stillman:
Krogstad is not conveyed as the conventional villain because we are meant to sympathize with him. The
text presents viable reasons for us to sympathize with Krogstad. When he is blackmailing Nora about her
bond he cites his reputation and his family as reasoning for his action, "My sons are growing up; for their
sake I must try and win back as much respect as I can in the town" (439). Nora also fights Krogstad with
reasoning of protecting her family but he fights back with the same reason. Later on we find out that
Mrs. Linde dumped him for a rich man. This makes the audience feel sorry for Krogstad. This also
probably explains Krogstad's bitterness.
[Message #5 11:23:39 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Justin Narayan:
2) The first meeting between Nora and Ms. Linde tells us that Nora seems to be a little childish and is
still developing a sense of understanding of people and the environment around her. In Act 1, Nora
keeps a secret that she barrowed from Krogstad and doesn't seem to understand the consequences of
it. In Act 2, Nora continues to play her childish games by trying to manipulate Torvald when saying, "if
your little squirrel were to ask you for something very, very prettily ---?" (449). She tries to get on his
good side by calling herself the names which he desires in hopes of getting what she wants. Usually
children use this technique of getting what they want, but I guess this is the reason why Torvald treats
her like a child because she continues to act like one. She also tries a similar technique with Dr. Rank
when she flirts and shows her stockings to him in hopes of enticing Dr. Rank. Nora did this to persuade
Dr. Rank to speak to Torvald about keeping Krogstad at the bank, but she stopped after Dr. Rank
confessed he always loved Nora. Nora seems to have developed a sense of morality by stopping because
even though she is in need, she doesn't want to take advantage of Dr. Rank.
[Message #6 11:27:08 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
john stoller:
John Stoller
English 110
March 24, 2010
The first meeting between Nora and Mrs. Linde tells us that Nora and Mrs. Linde were old friends that
haven't seen each other in ten years. The way they were talking it seems like they used to be very close
friends. This tells us that Nora is a normal person who seems nice. Nora hadn't seen her friend in ten
years and the first thing she does is tell her all of her deep dark secretes so this tells me she is a trustful
person who is able to be open and confide in others about her problems. Nora is also going to help Mrs.
Linde get a job so this also says to me that she is a caring person who has compassion for others. When
Mrs. Linde mentioned that her husband died and she didn't even feel bad Nora looked "incredulously"
at her and said" But, Christine, is that possible?" (Ibsen428) This tells us that Nora is a caring, loving
person that couldn't imagine not feeling bad for someone who died.
[Message #7 11:36:52 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Patricia Stillman:
Hey Raya let's talk about number two since a lot of people wrote on that. For ref 2. What does the first
meeting between Nora and Mrs. Linde tell us about Nora's character?
[Message #8 11:37:49 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Justin Narayan:
Patrica - Nice job with the connection of why Krogstad might feel some what bitter. I didn't make that
connection while reading.
[Message #9 11:38:10 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
john stoller:
good job everybody
[Message #10 11:38:44 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Justin Narayan:
Thanks jon, you too!
[Message #11 11:39:04 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Patricia Stillman:
Somewhat, in my opinion, Krogstad is extremely bitter. How would you feel if you got dumped by a girl
(you loved) for money?
[Message #12 11:39:19 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Matthew Juan:
Yea so i liked everyones point on each question but which one shall we go more into depth with?
[Message #13 11:40:39 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
True about Krosgstad's bitterness-- msg. #11. Do you think Mrs. Linde intentionally wanted to jurt him?
[Message #14 11:41:27 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Patricia Stillman:
Unlikely, that Mrs. Linde wanted to hurt him. She was only looking out for her family.
[Message #15 11:41:51 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
john stoller:
i think that in the first meeting with mrs. linde Nora seemed more innocent to me cause you didnt find
out the shady buisness until later in the play
[Message #16 11:42:05 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Justin Narayan:
I would feel the same as Krogstad probably. I dont think Mrs. Linde tried to do it intentionally though,
but it doesn't seem like it bothered her at al like it did with Krogstad.
[Message #17 11:42:35 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Justin Narayan:
all*
[Message #18 11:43:31 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
john stoller:
if you really love somebody you wouldnt leave them for all the money in the world
[Message #19 11:44:26 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Justin Narayan:
I think Nora did seem innocent in the beginning, but after finding out her secrets and thoughts, it's hard
to look at her as innoicent.
[Message #20 11:44:35 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Raya Mesias:
@ Patricia: I definitely agree with you in that the audience should sympathize with him because it is
revealed later in the play of how vulnerable he was after Mrs. Linde rejected his proposal. Difficulties in
life, make a person very bitter and the irony of it is that someone would expect that a person like
Krogstad would relate to Nora's situation, but he doesn't.
[Message #21 11:44:55 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Patricia Stillman:
Not in those times really, you can argue that in romeo/ juliet style, but that was against society.
Which we see is extremely powerfull in this play.
[Message #22 11:44:56 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Justin Narayan:
Mrs. Linde seems like a Gold Digger for marrying someone striclty for the money.
[Message #23 11:45:23 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Matthew Juan:
more money more problems. right?
@john yea i agree that nora seemed innocent at the start and later on it explained more of who she is.
[Message #24 11:45:44 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Patricia Stillman:
@ Justin:
She was doing strickly for her family.
[Message #25 11:45:49 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Raya Mesias:
@ Justin: Mrs. Linde does seem like a gold digger, but life had put her in a situation that left her no
choice. She had two little brothers and a ill mother to look after.
[Message #26 11:46:50 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Justin Narayan:
Oh yeah i forgot about her situation. I guess she had to do whatever she could at the time.
[Message #27 11:47:01 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Matthew Juan:
@justin: yea it seemed like a legit reason. she had to do something to take care of her family no matter
what the case
[Message #28 11:47:26 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
john stoller:
i agree with every body
[Message #29 11:47:58 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Justin Narayan:
Why couldnt she barrow money like Nora did though?
[Message #30 11:48:15 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Matthew Juan:
I think if we were put in a situation that involved having to protect our family and love ones we would
do whatever we can to sacrifice for them.
[Message #31 11:49:34 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
john stoller:
matthew i agree with you all the way
[Message #32 11:50:06 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Matthew Juan:
@ justin: Thats a good point. maybe since the guy had a business she had money coming in instead of
having to borrow way more money.
[Message #33 11:51:06 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
john stoller:
she didnt barrow the money cause then shed have to pay it back
[Message #34 11:51:23 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Patricia Stillman:
Also remember Nora had to go to Mr. Shadey Guy to get a loan at all. They said that they don't give
loans out to women like that.
[Message #35 11:51:34 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Raya Mesias:
@ John: Referring back to your idea: that no one would leave someone they love for all the money in
the world, I think that Mrs. Linde had no choice. It is especially difficult for a woman to be given such a
financial burden and dilemma when she had two little brothers and an ailing mother to look after. It's
sad, but Mrs. Linde and Krogstad did get back together! And just think of all the work that she had to do.
She was described appear as someone who has run out their youth because of working so hard. And @
Matthew, I agree with you that if we were put in a situation to protect the family (loved ones), most
people would do it--like Nora's love for Helmer. And it is also disappointing that Helmer did not "back
up" Nora--in that "no man would sacrifice their honor for their wife'.
[Message #36 11:51:45 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Justin Narayan:
True, It would probab;ly be more benifitial for her to marry him then to barrow money from him. If she
barrowed money, she would probably be looked down apon.
[Message #37 11:53:55 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Interesting response in #35-- Krogstad comes to value Mrs. Linde for more than her beauty, as opposed
to Nora being primarily embraced by Torvald for her beauty and dancing talent.
[Message #38 11:55:02 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
john stoller:
your probly right
[Message #39 11:55:05 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Raya Mesias:
@Karen--most definitely... in that Nora says to Helmer that in all of their years of marriage--not once did
she and him have an actual serious conversation where the BOTH of them had to work at it.
[Message #40 11:55:13 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Patricia Stillman:
Nora IS just a play thing. A doll
[Message #41 11:56:05 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
john stoller:
is that why they named the play that?
[Message #42 11:56:15 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Raya Mesias:
@Patricia: But not anymore! =)
[Message #43 11:56:21 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Yes, what did you make of the title?
[Message #44 11:56:46 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Raya Mesias:
@ John: Most definitely!
[Message #45 11:59:20 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
john stoller:
i think the tittle is symbolic of how all the charicters interact with each other its like they all are wearing
the mask
Interchange Conference Transcript
I:\DIWE5NET\CLASSES\kwong03\CHAT\Cardinals
[Message #1 09:09:40 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Copy and paste your response to one of the five assigned questions for “A Doll’s House” from 480-481:
2,3,4,5 or 8.
[Message #2 11:21:39 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
Naive Nora
#8-At what point in the action does Nora begin to understand the truth of her situation and take
responsibility for her life?
Nora has always been obedient and confirmed to her husband for the eight years they have been
married. Nora said the right things and have done all her husband asked for. Nora have always felt
happy since the man she married to have always provided for her and her kids. But one night, after a
beautiful evening with dancing her husband found out through a letter, that Nora have been fraudulent
did Nora realize she is not a wife to her husband but a "play thing." In the beginning of their marriage
her husband was ill and couldn't work. Nora forged her dying father's signature so she can retrieve some
money to help her husband get better. Nora felt compelled to forged the check because she felt it was
her wifely duty and her sacrifice for her husband. She loved her husband until the evening he found out
and was only worried about his reputation. The husband said, "All these eight years-she who was my joy
and pride- a hypocrite, a liar-worse, worse-a criminal!" and he goes on to blame here for "destroying"
his happiness and ruined his future. And worst, the husband tells Nora that he doesn't trust her to raised
their children. Nora only committed the fraud for her husbands sake, merely a sacrifice. And when the
husband receiving a second letter confirming that the sender will not publish nor pursue any actions to
ruin their reputation the husband says, "Nora, I swear it; I have forgiven you everything. I know what
you did, you did out of love for me." And at this point, Nora realizes her husband doesn't see her as wife
but someone to perform tricks, someone to make him look good. Nora explains, "As soon as your fear
was over-and it was not fear for what threatened me, but for what might happen to you-when the
whole thing was past, as far as you were concerned it was exactly as if nothing at all had happened."
And then continues, "Torvald-it was then it dawned upon me that for eight years I have been living here
with a strange man, and had borne him three children-." Nora realized through her husbands reaction to
the letter that he does not think of her much; that she is not valued. Nora wants to leave and free him of
all the responsibilities of her and learn about life on her own. She wants to feel valued and wanted and
someone to really love her for who she is and not what they want her to be.
[Message #3 11:21:53 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
#2 What does the first meeting between Nora and Mrs. Linde tell us about Nora's character?
When Nora and Mrs. Linde first meet, a lot of Nora's characters came out. Some characteristics
of Nora are that she tends to brag and show off. She also is kind of childish and keeps secrets from
Torvald. An example of how she brags and shows off is when she is talking to Mrs. Linde about Torvald
becoming a manager at the bank and how they are going to be making a lot of money and states, "Nora:
No, not only what one needs, but heaps and heaps of money" (428). This proves that Nora always thinks
about money and if her family has enough. She is basically showing off to Mrs. Linde that in the near
future her family is going to come up with plenty of money because her husband was offered the
position of becoming a manager. An example of how Nora could be childish is when she starts to
whisper and says to Mrs. Linde, "Nora: Speak low. Suppose Torvald were to hear! He mustn't on any
account - no one in the world must know, Christine, except you" (431). Another example is when she
hides the macaroons from her husband and lies to Dr. Rank saying that Mrs. Linde brought them for her.
These examples show that Nora is capable of lying which may reflect to a child's behavior in lying to get
one out of one's troubles.
[Message #4 11:22:07 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
sharma subha:
2. What does the first meeting between Nora and Mrs. Linde tell us about Nora's character?
When Nora first meets Mrs. Linde, Nora has to make herself the center of attention. Although, Mrs.
Linde came to see Nora and her family because she wanted a job, Nora immediately started to tell Mrs.
Linde about her and her stories from the last eight years of being married. While Nora is bragging about
herself and her stories, she puts Mrs. Linde down. "It was very bad of me. Christine. Poor thing, how you
must have suffered. And he left you nothing?" (428). All Nora can think about is money. Money was
constantly on her mind. Instead of being there to comfort Mrs. Linde, Nora just brings out the negative
impacts in Mrs. Linde's life and starts to talk about the good stuff she has going for her in her life. Nora is
like a child who feels the need to always be center of attention..
[Message #5 11:24:30 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
i think we should start discussion with number 2.
[Message #6 11:24:43 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
i agree!
[Message #7 11:25:01 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Me, too! Great idea, Jeianne :)
[Message #8 11:25:30 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
okay. so what kind of characteristics do you guys think nora has?
[Message #9 11:25:49 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
Sounds good! I agree with everyone at first Nora was very self centered.
[Message #10 11:26:01 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
shes selfish forsure
[Message #11 11:26:09 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
sharma subha:
she's a show off
[Message #12 11:26:47 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
that too, wasnt she runnin her mouth about how good she has it when Mrs. Linde was trying to explain
her issues
[Message #13 11:26:54 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
Nora is very spoiled, she doesn't humble herself and se doesn't think of others (considering Mrs. Linde's
feelings)
[Message #14 11:27:11 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
exactamundo!
[Message #15 11:27:15 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
She sure is. You can tell that she thinks she's "all that" because she's always referring to how lucky she is
to be pretty and that Torvald doesn't notice she's wearing cheap dresses because she looks good in
anything.
[Message #16 11:27:18 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
I know. how could she parade her kids and her husband, poor widow
[Message #17 11:27:24 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
bingo!
[Message #18 11:27:55 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
yeah, i agree with you guys, i always believe that she is childish of how she lies to Torvald about coming
up with the money and also the macaroons.
[Message #19 11:28:08 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
am i trippin or is she gold diggin her man?
[Message #20 11:28:23 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
At least Mrs. Linde found someone who loves her for who she is. Nora "show off" and represents herself
as innocent and then something had to give and she lost it all.
[Message #21 11:29:05 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
sharma subha:
Nora does have gold digger qualities
[Message #22 11:29:13 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
William: it does seem like she is gold diggin Torvald. because she always uses up his money
[Message #23 11:29:19 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
I agree with your description of Nora as childish, Jeianne: from the cookies to the showoffiness to the
lying to get out of trouble.
[Message #24 11:29:44 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
thank you very much! i wanted to get that across
[Message #25 11:29:54 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Belle, that's right. At least Mrs.Linde foudn someone who loves her for who she is. Not who she tries to
be.
[Message #26 11:30:28 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
unintentionally "gold diggin" =) I think she knew what she was doing so in the end where she blamed her
dad and Torvald I felt like she was lying
[Message #27 11:30:52 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
Still a Gold Digger, Not Cool.
[Message #28 11:31:03 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
While Nora brags about her happiness, Mrs. Linde will hold that true happiness in her renewed
relationship with Krogstad. Nora is left with nothing at the end of the story.
[Message #29 11:31:24 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
that is correct.
[Message #30 11:31:25 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
do you guys think torvald knows that she's a gold digger?
[Message #31 11:31:30 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
i second that
[Message #32 11:32:15 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
Maybe he could probably jus tbite his tongue since Nora does ecerything else
[Message #33 11:32:21 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
I don't think the focus of the story is on her "gold-digging" but rather, the fact that her and her husband
were together for 8 years and ultimately, knew nothing about each other.
[Message #34 11:32:37 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
@Genevieve-shes worst than a kid. And she knew how Rank like her. I have a feeling she always knew. I
just don't trust anything she says. She told Mrs.Linde that she would day dream about a rich old man but
says it's not Rank. hmmm I don't think so, she is so flirty with him.
[Message #35 11:32:39 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
truuue.
[Message #36 11:33:13 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Yeah, Belle. Nora needs to calm down.
[Message #37 11:33:14 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
They lived together but under pretense. All for show.
[Message #38 11:33:49 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
But I really thought they were in love till the end. I knew Nora was a liar but I thought they were in love.
[Message #39 11:34:09 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
yeeeah, i agree. ALL FOR SHOW.
[Message #40 11:34:27 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
soo what do you guys think about number 3?
[Message #41 11:35:11 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
They were not in Love, i think she needed some on ewith financial stability and he needed a housewife
type of woman. Could be wrong though
[Message #42 11:35:25 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Yes. The only thing Nora and her husband really had in common was the idea of presenting themselves
to society as the perfect, happy, well-off couple. Throughout the story, Nora begins to realize that she
lacks true happiness and wants out of her relationship. Meanwhile, Torvald finally realizes that he too
thinks this way in their last conversation, but I feel that he actually has true feelings for her. There is a
longing in him to be a better man for her.
[Message #43 11:36:13 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
I think she recalls her father because he was the only other man she loved and loved her back and so
that's all she knows about how a man treats a woman. That you do everything a man wants, what you
say, do, think. (at least back then)
[Message #44 11:36:57 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
@genevieve--yeah I sense that. I agree.
[Message #45 11:37:07 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
sharma subha:
I think she recalls her father because if it wasn't Torvald supporting her then it was her father. She was
the same way with her father. Always spending
[Message #46 11:39:33 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
The fact that Nora is constantly having these recollections of her father help to show that she has never
put the focus on herself. She never blames herself for agreeing with always agreeing with her father.
Which is why at the end, she finally moves on with her life solo. She realizes she needs to focus on what
she really wants, what she really thinks about everything rather than conforming to the views the men
in her life held.
[Message #47 11:40:40 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Belle, I absolutely agree with your interpretation. Her father really was the only man she ever had a true
relationship with.
[Message #48 11:40:41 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Val Tosheff:
Nora loves poeople who can take care of her. And she lives to make them happy in return.
[Message #49 11:41:00 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
right on the money
[Message #50 11:41:08 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
i think you have good points to why Nora always refers back to her father. and how she needs a man in
her life to support her.
[Message #51 11:41:12 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
I agree, Val.
[Message #52 11:41:35 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
yes and even in the end Torvald tells her she doesn't know how and without laughing or being childish,
Nora agrees and but says she will learn on her on. So she does grow up.
[Message #53 11:41:36 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
sharma subha:
i agree with val
[Message #54 11:41:51 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Subha, you're right. She always had someone to support her in someway or another.
[Message #55 11:42:30 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
wow, we're at message 54! good discussion guys!
[Message #56 11:42:37 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Interesting point in #45-- in order for Nora to be able to spend, she needed a sugar daddy, first literally
her father, and now Torvald. Do you think hers and Torvald's relationship echoes that of her and her
father's in other ways? If so, how?
[Message #57 11:43:08 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Did Nora truly love Torvald? Which of her comments or actions would indicate that they love each
other?
[Message #58 11:43:15 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
sharma subha:
Torvald replaced her father.
[Message #59 11:43:23 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Yes. They totally echo each other as Nora mentions herself at the end of the story.
[Message #60 11:43:38 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Val Tosheff:
To prove she is not childish she confess everythink to Mrs. Linde, which make her look more childish,
because the reader doesn't know if Mrs. Line can be trust.
[Message #61 11:44:26 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
If the relationship echoed then yes, on the surface Nora did love Torvald, but in love, spend the rest of
my days with you love, no.
[Message #62 11:44:34 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
yeeah, replaced her father. even by the way Torvald speaks to to her is like a father/daughter
relationship. he talks to her as if she were a little kid. like calling her names with the word "little" in it.
[Message #63 11:45:11 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
Doesnt that prove that Nora's a little naive and obviously doesnt have the maturity of a woman her age,
maybe lack of life experience since she has always been catered to
[Message #64 11:45:23 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Nora says,"When I was at home with papa, he told me his opinion about everything, and so I had the
same opinions; and if I differed from him I concealed the fact, because he would not have liked it. He
called me his doll-child, and he played with me just as I used to play with my dolls. And when I came to
live with you--I mean, I was simply transferred from papa's hands into yours."
[Message #65 11:45:56 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
sharma subha:
good quote Genevieve
[Message #66 11:46:34 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Yeah, Jeianne. How many times did he call her little? Probably 20 throughout the story. And that
obviously shows that he thinks he has more authority as the father does in a father-daughter
relationship.
[Message #67 11:46:43 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
yeah- like a hand me down toy
[Message #68 11:46:51 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
yuuup.
[Message #69 11:46:52 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Yeah.
[Message #70 11:47:12 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
do you guys wanna start on number 4?
[Message #71 11:47:16 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
William Lumbi:
yeap
[Message #72 11:47:24 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
I was just thinking that :)
[Message #73 11:48:14 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
do you guys sympathize Krogstad?
[Message #74 11:48:27 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
This question requires a lot more opinion and interpretation. I don't know whether he was presented as
a conventional villian or not. But personally, I do not think he was a villian.
[Message #75 11:48:38 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Val Tosheff:
According to Freud if her husband resumble her father, it is strong chemestry
[Message #76 11:48:43 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
sharma subha:
i wouldnt consider krogstad as a villain
[Message #77 11:48:43 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
I do sympathize with him because Nora entered his life and left him hanging.
[Message #78 11:48:48 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
i do, i feel bad for him. I think his a good guy
[Message #79 11:49:13 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Yeah.
[Message #80 11:50:02 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
I'm glad that he and Mrs. Linde worked out together in the story. They both had an emptiness in their
lives that they needed each other to fill.
[Message #81 11:50:02 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
In response to message #34, Nora is a flirt-- in the one scene with Mrs. Linde, where she jokes about
being supported by a rich man, she seems quite aware of her own allure to men.
[Message #82 11:50:26 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
Krogstad has been down, loosing his wife, raising children on his own, loosing the one he loved but then
they met again and his luck change and as soon as it did, he wanted to take the letter back, he wanted
to apologize, villains don't appologize
[Message #83 11:50:30 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Jeianne Victoria:
yeeeah, i agree with you guys.
[Message #84 11:50:39 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Your discussion in which you characterize their marriage gives a lot of insight into the title.
[Message #85 11:51:14 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Yeah, the title finally made sense in the scene where she talks about her father and her husband.
[Message #86 11:52:00 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
You're right Belle. Villians don't apologize. He's a nice guy, he was just going through some tough times
and his attitude simply arised from the heat of the moment.
[Message #87 11:52:31 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
sharma subha:
Well in the end i think Korgstad is the one that got something out of this. He was loosing his job and all
but the end he got Mrs. Linde who he had history with. While, Torvald and Nora loose out.
[Message #88 11:53:23 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Right. There's a big change in the quality of life for those two couples from the beginning of the story, to
the end.
[Message #89 11:54:16 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Though Torvald is still well-off, he is no longer a happy man.
[Message #90 11:54:46 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Similarly, which Krogstad and Mrs. Linde are still not on top financially, they are now happier than ever.
[Message #91 11:54:51 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
while*
[Message #92 11:55:08 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
sharma subha:
Yea its pretty much Nora who lost most of everything.
[Message #93 11:55:10 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Val Tosheff:
did everyone get what he deserves?
[Message #94 11:57:03 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Yes, I think in the end, everyone got what they deserved, Val. Nora needed alone time in order to come
to terms with her identity. Torvald did not deserve to continue to live with someone who he did not
have a steady relationship with and so he ends up getting what he deserves. Mrs. Linde and Krogstad
who have been trying to find happiness in their lives got what they deserved by finding eachother.
[Message #95 11:57:16 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Belle Asuncion:
But I think at least Nora will now be more honest with herself, but I agree she will not be happy. She will
now be more truthful
[Message #96 11:57:30 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Genevieve Katoa:
Yes.
Interchange Conference Transcript
I:\DIWE5NET\CLASSES\kwong03\CHAT\Cubs
[Message #1 09:09:49 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Copy and paste your response to one of the five assigned questions for “A Doll’s House” from 480-481:
2,3,4,5 or 8.
[Message #2 11:12:17 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
4. Is Krogstad presented as a conventional villain, or are we meant to sympathize with him? Explain.
During the first two acts we see Krogstad as a potential villain in the story because of the way he
is presented such as a very strict businessman, who will stop at nothing to get what he wants. While
discussing the money Nora owes Krogstad, he reminds her, “When your husband was ill, you came to
me to borrow two hundred and fifty pounds” (440). In other words, Krogstad is on the verge of losing his
job and threatens to tell Nora’s husband that she borrowed money from him in order to pay for the trip
to Italy. She fears that if her husband finds out he will be upset because he will not live up to the man
role of supporting his family. Krogstad seems vicious and heartless, however, it isn’t until later on in act
III, that Krogstad reveals his true intentions for blackmailing Nora. While talking to Mrs. Linde, Krogstad
reveals, “… I am a shipwrecked man clinging to a bit of wreckage” (464). It is revealed that Krogstad is
going through a tough time in his life. He lost his wife and left with his two children and the only reason
why he did was he wanted to make sure his children were well taken care of. You feel sorry for him and
he isn’t a villain at all. When it comes to your children, you will be willing to do anything to make sure
their taken care of. Even though, if you know it is the wrong thing to do.
[Message #3 11:15:19 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kile Boele:
2. What does the first meeting between Nora and Mrs. Linde tell us about Nora's Character?
The first meeting between Nora and Mrs. Linde shows us that Nora doesn't pay close attention to detail
and remember things well. Nora didn't recognize Mrs. Lind at first and also Nora says "what a
thoughtless creature I am, chattering away like this. My poor, dear Christine, do forgive me…Poor
Christine you are a widow."(428 line 2, 3, 5). Nora forgot to write to Christine after her husband passed
and years have passes since then. We also learn that Nora is a spendthrift. Mrs. Linde says smiling
"Nora, Nora, Haven't you learnt sense yet? In our school days you were a great spendthrift." (428 line
41, 42) A spendthrift is a person who wastes money by spending large amounts of money on
inconsequential things. Nora is also shown as a hard worker when she puts her mind to it. Nora says "we
both had to work…odds and ends, needlework, crochet-work, embroidery, and that kind of thing" (428429 line 44, 45, and 2, 3). We also find out that Nora can be secretive. Nora, to save Torvald's life,
acquires 250 pounds to take their family on a trip to Italy. We also see by the way Nora talks and what
she says that she has the demeanor of a child. "(Lies back on the sofa) I never said that I borrowed the
money. I may have got it some other way. Perhaps I got it from some other admirer. When anyone is as
attractive as I am ---" (431 line 36, 37). This is showing that she takes borrowing the money lightly by
making a joke about it.
[Message #4 11:23:47 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kira Ostapenko:
From the meeting, it seems as though Nora is childish and has no problem with it. She brings up to Mrs.
Linde that she has her own secret that she is proud of and that if people knew about it, then they would
know she isn’t completely clueless. this is shown when she says that, “I too have something to be proud
and glad of…I never said I had borrowed the money. I may have got it some other way. Perhaps I got it
from an admirer. When anyone is as attractive as I am.” This is a childish behavior because she is almost
bragging about herself and how clever she is for what she has done as well as being self absorbed in her
looks. Her having to lower her voice when she said this also shows child like behavior because people
lower their voice when they are saying something they shouldn’t be because other people aren’t
supposed to know. Its possible to say she cares about other people because she went behind her
husbands back to get money necessary to save his life and also because she begs and pleads her
husband to get Mrs. Linde a job.
[Message #5 11:23:56 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
Journal: A Dolls House
Question 8. At what point in the action does Nora begin to understand the truth of her situation and
take responsibility for her life?
Nora first begins to understand the truth of her situation, and take responsibility for her life when she is
cornered by Krogstad. She would rather kill herself than let her husband take the blame for her
indiscretion upon himself, and lose his honor and reputation. She says, "I have courage for it now" (458)
meaning courage to kill herself. Krogstad reminds her that even if she kills herself it would not change
anything because he can still destroy Helmer by revealing Nora's indiscretion. Nora is speechless. The
power of these words hit her, and she cannot see any other solution. Of course she then realizes that
suicide is not going to be any use, plus the fact that she really does not have the courage to kill herself.
She knows that Krogstad is really determined to ruin Helmer if he refuses to help him. She begins to
reflect on her own actions, and realizes that life is not so easy. And that other people, such as Krogstad,
are driven, by misfortune, to do things they otherwise would not.
At that point Christine comes into the room. Nora confesses all that has happened, and in doing so is
able to organize her thoughts. Ideas begin to form in her mind, consequently, she asks Christine to
promise to be her witness. Nora feels that if Helmer truly loves her he will take the blame for her, thus,
confirming his love for her. Then, together they will do what Krogstad is now trying to do. He said, "I
want to rehabilitate myself," (458). Nora believes that if they love each other they can face anything,
and therefore, rehabilitate themselves too. This is the "wonderful thing" that she believes will happen.
Helmer will prove his love for her by sacrificing his honor, and yet, it will be a terrible thing for Helmer to
face. If he is destroyed she may lose her mind. She looks to Christine to help her. Christine sees the
urgency and rushes out to find Krogstad. The climax of the story is building, and her dance - the
tarantella - seems to enhance it. Nora's stress is seen in the way she dances. Helmer notices and says,
"My darling Nora, you are dancing as if your life depended on it." Nora acknowledges the truth in this
sentence. She is dancing for her life. This is her final act, after the dance she knows that their future may
be changed forever. Sadly Helmer does not respond to Krogstad's letter in the way she had anticipated.
She sees, for the first time, his true feelings toward her. His moral standing, honor, and reputation are
far more important to him than she is. She is shocked into silence by his spiteful lecture because this is
the man whose life and reputation she had guarded, moreover, committed a crime for, and in fact, given
up her own honor for. She had borrowed money to take her husband to Italy to recover from an illness.
She had forged her own father's signature, and lied so that her husband may be spared the
embarrassment of poverty. She did things that any one who loved another would do.
She finally realizes that her marriage is not a true marriage. He had broken his vows to love her, come
what may. He had chosen his honor over her. She realizes that they never really knew each other at all.
For example, they do not have the same views about moral sense. She has just seen Helmer's idea of
moral sense. However, it is by no means anything like hers. She sees that although the law is supposed
to be right, to her it is not right. As she says, "I find it impossible to convince myself that the law is right.
According to it a woman has no right to spare her old dying father, or to save her husband's life" (478).
Now she firmly realizes that she must take responsibility for her life by learning about the conditions of
the world in which she lives. Nora has been performing all her life to please others - first for her father,
and then for her husband. She would not say or do things that would displease them. For example, she
lied about, and hid the macaroons. Up until this point, Nora had simply been a pretty little bird that sang
to amuse, in order to get what she wanted in life, but now all that is to change. Nora has decided to take
responsibility for her life, stand up for her rights, and educate herself.
[Message #6 11:25:30 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kile Boele:
kira i like how we wrote about the same thing
[Message #7 11:29:01 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Melanie Martin:
2) What does the first meeting between Nora and Mrs. Linde tell us about Nora's character?
When Nora and Mrs. Linde first meet, I could tell that Nora likes having a lot of money. She first tells
Mrs. Linde about her husband's new job as a manager at a bank and says to her "he will have a big salary
and lots of commissions. For the future we can live quite differently - we can do just as we like. I feel so
relieved and so happy, Christine! It will be splendid to have heaps of money and not need to have any
anxiety, won't it?" (Ibsen 428) Mrs. Linde then recalls how Nora was a spindrift when she was younger
and tell her that it would be nice to have what you need and Nora replies by saying "not only what one
needs, but heaps and heaps of money." (428)
[Message #8 11:30:48 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
I agree that in the beginning she shows her childish she is, but how does that eventually lead to her
realizing her life with torvald was like living in a doll house?
[Message #9 11:31:44 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kira Ostapenko:
i see it as how torvald is playing with the doll house and nora is living in it. like what does and says
depends on him, he has all the control
[Message #10 11:33:33 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
exactly torvald is ver opiniated he only wants to see what he sees, he is more like a father to her than
her husband and Nora has no say in thier relationship
[Message #11 11:34:59 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kira Ostapenko:
yea liek simple actions like eating macaroons aren't allowed. so its like wat kind of relationship r u in if u
r being controlled
[Message #12 11:35:08 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kile Boele:
thats why she has to be secretive about the money and stuff
[Message #13 11:35:09 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
She realises that he really was not interested in her as a human being with rights, and oppinions of
moral standing. This was revealed in the last act after he read the letter. He showed her no remorse. At
this point she realised she was nothing more to him than a doll.
[Message #14 11:35:54 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kira Ostapenko:
a playmate
[Message #15 11:36:33 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kile Boele:
lol =]
[Message #16 11:37:07 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Melanie Martin:
I agree. It's like they were just playing house
[Message #17 11:37:22 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
Torvald wanted to live up with his moral value of being a man, where he payed for everything and took
care of the family
[Message #18 11:37:23 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
Yes he treated her as a play object. Never took her seriously.
[Message #19 11:37:30 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Gloria Keane:
Sorry, here is mine....
Analysis Question #1: Institution of Marriage
This play reveals alot about the institution of marriage. It shows how much more goes into the
institution of marriage besides love. It shows how there is so much that is required in the concept of
joining in the instituion of marriage . The fairly tale or romantic view is that MNora and Torvald fell in
love and everything else would work itself out. Wheras the play shows that was not enought, that the
understanding between the two was much more needed than simple acceptance. For example, Mrs.
Linde's marriage to her former marriage was about money. She explains in the third act that her
previous marriage was so that she would be able to support her family. She felt that this was her
obligation. Krogstad and Mrs. Lind had a love affair though valid in the sense that they both loved each
other fully, the love that they had for each other was not enough but the understanding between the
two and the boligaitonfor other variables outside each other was the problem. The institution of
marriage is proven to be only contract between two people who are compatible in all or at least the
important sections: that one can suspport hte other, they are socially or class compatible, and it meets
each others understandings onto why each other are getting into the whole institution. The main ideal
that love is always a constanct in marriage is not what it is about. It is solely about understandings of
each other whether that is ablout love, money or whatever the reason. As Nora says, " I have been
performing tricks for you, Torvals. That's how I've survived. You wanted it like that. You and Papa have
done me a great wrong/ It's because of you I've made nothing of my life." This is Nora explaining what
has happened to her life and what the marriage has done to her. It has made her be a performer, acting
like her whole life and marriage is what she wants it to be.
[Message #20 11:37:35 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Interesting question in #5-- how does she eventulally come to realize that being with Torvald is like living
in a doll's house? What do you think? Also, Zena's response in #5 begins to answer that question.
[Message #21 11:40:20 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
when Nora realizes that after torvald found out her secret and that he confronted her about it, she
realizes that is the first real conversation that they had in their eight years of marriage
[Message #22 11:41:46 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kira Ostapenko:
first serious one too, unitl now he has always been palying around and joking, treating her like a little kid
by the names he uses and now it's getting real because he's unhappy by her actions
[Message #23 11:43:05 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
and Nora realizes that she was his doll and that he could never change his actions
[Message #24 11:44:50 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kile Boele:
even when he was trying to keep her from going he said he could change but everything would have
been the same
[Message #25 11:45:27 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kira Ostapenko:
i wonder who really had who in check, cuz liek wenever she wanted something he gave it to her
[Message #26 11:45:49 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
you can never change someones personality even though their is a slight chance that could happen
[Message #27 11:48:16 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
Yes I agree Daniel, but I beleive a person can change their own personality, just as Nora decided to do in
the end.
[Message #28 11:49:03 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kira Ostapenko:
not really, ho wmany times have u heard peopel in relationships say they can change and they dont and
same problems exist later on
[Message #29 11:49:37 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
yes but old habits can sometimes return to a person
[Message #30 11:50:06 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Melanie Martin:
yea it depends on the person and if they are really willing to change
[Message #31 11:50:22 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
Nora was awakened by the realization that Torvald never really loved her as a human being. She then
realized that if she was ever to be taken seriously again that she needed to make changes.
[Message #32 11:50:47 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
their is an old saying what you see is what you get
[Message #33 11:51:12 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kira Ostapenko:
even if she changes, he wont. and he wont forgive her for this.
[Message #34 11:51:22 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kile Boele:
i think that people can truly change and what you see is up for interpretation
[Message #35 11:52:00 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
I think he already fogave her. He acted too hastily and realized what a mistake he had actually made.
[Message #36 11:52:04 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Gloria Keane:
People can change but at the end Nora, I dont think changed but finally bursted
[Message #37 11:52:33 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
for change to happen it depends on the person themselves and if they want to change they have to be
commited to it
[Message #38 11:54:28 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
Yes, Gloria, she did not change at that point, nevertheless, she had come to the understanding that she
needed to change.
[Message #39 11:55:04 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Melanie Martin:
Nora needed that situatioin for her to wake up and want to change. Maybe leaving Helmer is what will
wake him up and change since she's gone
[Message #40 11:55:33 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
I think Daniel that you are right, I feel Nora became commited the moment she walked out on Helmer.
[Message #41 11:55:47 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Do you think that Nora leaving Torvald was an act of courage?
[Message #42 11:56:06 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
Yes, I do.
[Message #43 11:56:09 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
no Torvald will find someone else and do the same thing
[Message #44 11:56:49 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kira Ostapenko:
i think he might just be insecure so i agree with daniel
[Message #45 11:57:13 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kile Boele:
i think that it was an act of courage and that Nora could find someone better
[Message #46 11:57:23 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Why? And why do you think that Torvald wasn't likely changed by her leaving him?
[Message #47 11:57:46 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
he only said that to Nora jus because he thought that was what she wanted to hear
[Message #48 11:57:54 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
Nora would never be able to be happy under Torvald's roof. It took courage for her to go out alone after
such a sheltered life.
[Message #49 11:58:12 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Kira Ostapenko:
because its like a game to him, he doesn't really love her so it dont matter if she stays around
[Message #50 11:58:20 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Daniel Detrinidad:
i wonder if she will be lonely now
[Message #51 11:59:21 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Zena Tarasena:
Torvald will not be changed because he will not be moved out of his comfort zone,
Interchange Conference Transcript
I:\DIWE5NET\CLASSES\kwong03\CHAT\Giants
[Message #1 09:09:05 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Copy and paste your response to one of the five assigned questions for “A Doll’s House” from 480-481:
2,3,4,5 or 8.
[Message #2 11:22:16 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Ariana Bickham:
Nora’s character is portrayed as someone who doesn’t like to face the truth. She covers up behind her
husband who is now going to make a significant amount of money. She likes to brag about the nice
things she has and tries to make it look like her and her family are perfect. She confides in Mrs. Linde
about the secret she has been keeping from her husband. It seems as though Nora lies to her husband in
a childish way afraid of what he might do, like a father with his child. When Mrs. Linde is confused about
Nora’s secret, Nora simply states, “There is no need you should. I never said I had borrowed the money.
I may have got it some other way. (Lies back on the sofa.) Perhaps I got it from some other admirer.
When anyone is as attractive as I am-“(Act 1 pg431). It seems as though when Nora says this she’s trying
to impose that she was seeing someone besides her husband and this man has lent her money.
[Message #3 11:24:05 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
4. Is Krogstad presented as a conventional villain, or are we meant to sympathize with him? Explain.
I think at first he was portrayed as a villain. Krogstad was going to lose his job on account of Nora and so
he was willing to blackmail her. His past had already given him reproach in which he could not bear
another, especially for his children. He was desperate, so much that he could not go down by himself.
After it all, considering his circumstances, I did start to pity him. Having considered he is a widow with
children and that he is going to lose his job, I just felt sorry for this poor man, especially when he was
talking to Mrs. Linde. "Was there anything else to understand except what was obvious to all the worlda heartless woman jilts a man when a more lucrative chance turns up" (463)? Poor Krogstad, he could
have had a whole other life if Mrs. Linde did not marry someone else. This turned into one of those sad
love stories especially when Mrs. Linde said they both should be shipwrecked together than individually.
[Message #4 11:24:14 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Ariana Bickham:
my response is to question number 2, by the way!
[Message #5 11:24:23 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
hello group
[Message #6 11:24:59 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
i responded to question #5
[Message #7 11:26:21 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
Tamara Abualhsan
March 23, 2010
English 110 (AB), Professor Wong
"A Doll House"
Question 5: What function does Dr. Rank serve in the play?
Dr. Rank, the doctor and daily care giver for the Helmers family. Flirts with Nora before reveling
that he is very ill with Tuberculosis of the spine, and with only one month to live, he reveals to Nora that
he has been secretly in love with her. Back from the party doctor Rank gives his letter of death to the
Helmers, and Nora talks to him as if nothing is going to happen to him. Torvald goes to check the mail;
Nora does everthing to stop him bout fails. Toravld goes to read this letter and Nora protect to take her
life. Before she has the opportunity, Toravald intercepts her, confronting her with Krogstad's letter. In
this rage, he declares that he is now completely in Krogstad's power- he must yeild to Krogstad demands
and keep quiet about the whole affair. He begins to put down Nora, calling her dishonest and an
immoral women and telling her that she is unfit to raise their children. He says that their marriage will
be kept only to maintain appearances. Much of the criticism is focused on Nora's self-discovery, but the
other characters also have depth and value. Dr. Rank and Nora both suffer from the irresponsibility of
their fathers who infected his family. Dr. Rank becomes a metaphor for the poison infecting the
Helmer's marriage. " do you think he's the only one who…? Who wouldn't gladly give his life for your
sake. I swore to myself you would before I went. I'll never have a better opportunity. Well Nora! Now
you know. And now you know too that you can confide in me as in nobody else.(act two) Dr. Rank
believes that he is the one for Nora and he will do anything to be with her even if it is to cause her to
destroy her marriage.
Dr. Rank's character has a strong purpose of contrast in the play. He represents desperation and
decay. Dr. Rank is a man who is dying at an early age. He brings out the wealth and happiness that Nora
and Torvald still have in their lives. Dr. Rank almost makes the reader feel sorrowful which clearly
doesn't occur when looking at the character's of Torvald and Nora. I think his character is interesting in
this play because he directly contrasts the other male figures of the play. Krogstad and Torvald play the
other make roles, and both of these men are strong -willed and confident. Whereas, Dr. Rank is a dying,
weak soul. He is a great example of the loss of hope in the play.
[Message #8 11:26:59 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
so what function did Dr. Rank serve in the play?
[Message #9 11:27:46 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
jinkyrhea santamaria:
Question 2. What does the first meeting between Nora and Mrs. Linde tell us about Nora's character?
Reading Nora's lines, I noticed that the tone of this character is very child-like. Her lines are full
of energy every time I come across her parts. I find her a very happy character. You can also tell that she
as a thinks really good of herself as she mention, "Thank Heaven, any clothes look well on me" (432).
She then mentions how she will keep her little secret quit till the day her appearance die away. What
that tells me is that Nora must be look quite pretty (432). Upon meeting Mrs. Linde, or Christine as she is
address by Nora, one can definitely see what type of character Nora is.
When Nora and Mrs. Linde were engaging, once again her child-like character comes out. She
was full of enthusiasm as she talked about her affairs with her Mrs. Linde. You can also get a sense of
how she is very particular about her status. Though she worries about money, she also worries a lot
about how others see her. I found this really odd because she tries her best in looking the part, yet she
did not have enough to spend. She seems to worry about being stigmatized. Further analyzing from that,
she has this urge to prove that she is more than what people see her as which is an incapable and
undependable women. She proves to Mrs. Linde that she is a woman who also has gone through trials.
She then tells her secret to Mrs. Linde. Nora explains that she was responsible for attaining the money
that helped her husband get better. She tells Mrs. Linde that she did not really get the money from her
father but instead found a way to get it herself (431). Upon her meeting with Mrs. Linde you can tell that
she has a full mouth since she keep talking about what she has been going, but she has given Mrs. Linde
a chance to speak.
One can also see that Nora is understandable to where her position stands. It is because she
makes her husband believe that she is not capable of nothing. She lets her husband led as she keeps her
little secret with Mrs Linde. Nora sees that her role is just to be a wife. One can see this when she ask
Mrs. Linde why she was left with nothing and felt very apologetic towards her situation. She also wanted
to tell her husband something, yet, she could not when he had walk in the room (436). So, you can
definitely see how she feels undermined by her husband.
[Message #10 11:30:42 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
So she puts on a masque metaphorically?
[Message #11 11:31:10 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Ariana Bickham:
yea, she's acting as someone she's not
[Message #12 11:31:15 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
she show to her husband that she is weak and has no sense of word i nthe relationship
[Message #13 11:31:25 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
in*
[Message #14 11:32:12 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
why do you think that...do you think she is purposly doing that or her personality is like that
[Message #15 11:32:49 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
yeah she just goes along with being his "skylark" even though she is capable of other things
[Message #16 11:32:51 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Ariana Bickham:
To Emma's response- I felt bad for him as well.
[Message #17 11:33:36 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
does she do that out of respect??
[Message #18 11:34:11 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Ariana Bickham:
out of respect and maybe because she is scared she might lose him if she acted more independent
[Message #19 11:34:35 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Bogdan Kurpita:
4.
The reader should be sympathetic of Krogstad. He is a man who is just as motivated as Helmer
with good intentions; a man who is hard-working and who simply wants to provide for his family. He is
at a conflict with Helmer because of a small mistake that he made in the past and for this reason he is
looked down upon as a villain or as a bad person in general. However, this is not the case. He is a man
who was down on his luck and who made a mistake, but he was also trying his best to fix things and to
amend his ways. He has the capacity to accuse Nora of hiding things from her husband, but he chooses
not to do that. Instead, he disregards the way that people had treated him and decides not to repay evil
for evil. That is why, the reader is encouraged throughout the play to develop sympathy for the
character of Krogstad and to not see him as a villain.
[Message #20 11:34:42 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
jinkyrhea santamaria:
she thinks shes expected to yield to a man because she did this with her father. If Nora learn that from
the very beggining it will be hard to actually realize she is below a man
[Message #21 11:35:15 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
i think she was used be being like that, a "doll," since she mentions at the end that Torvald and her
father are the same
[Message #22 11:36:56 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
oo i never thought that she was perseived as a "doll"
[Message #23 11:37:26 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
jinkyrhea santamaria:
to emma, that is so relevant.. she keeps on acting like a doll.
[Message #24 11:37:46 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
that makes sense "a dolls house" really represents how she lived her life
[Message #25 11:38:47 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
she was manipulated around like a doll...like in real life a child would call it doll many things as did
Torvald to Nora
[Message #26 11:38:58 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
yeah she mentions too that her father and Torvald treat her like a "doll" and she plays and treats her
children like "dolls" also.
[Message #27 11:39:34 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Bogdan Kurpita:
i think that nora pretends to be naive of certain things in order to make her husband feel that he has
more power over her and that he can teach her more than she knows.
In a sense, she is making herself look dumber in oder to help boost his ego.
[Message #28 11:39:47 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
what do you guys think Dr. Rank funtion was in the story?
[Message #29 11:40:03 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
its more like they are easy to manipulate just like how Torvald and Nora speak to eachother in a playful
way.
[Message #30 11:41:33 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
Dr. Rank...I agreed with what Tamara said in her analysis and the connection he shared with Nora about
the fathers playing a role in their lives.
[Message #31 11:41:51 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
jinkyrhea santamaria:
As for Krogstad, you really can blame him for doing what he did. He was loking out for his self-interest
due to the sake of his children.
[Message #32 11:43:24 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
i would be the same to honestly i would look for my role at my job first i wouldnt want someones eles
taking my job
[Message #33 11:44:52 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
its weird how his misfortunes always lead back to Mrs. Linde. She left him and married someone who
was already well off and now she is going to take his position at the bank.
[Message #34 11:46:01 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
but at the end they end up marring each other
[Message #35 11:47:57 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
jinkyrhea santamaria:
in msg 31 i meant cant* not can
[Message #36 11:48:25 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Bogdan Kurpita:
to tamara:
Good analysis of the title. It now makes soo much more sense
I agree that she totally is like a doll. Very playful
and i thing that her husband treats her as a posession to play with and take care of but not as someone
who is equal to him who he can share ideas with and be real with.
[Message #37 11:48:54 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
yeah thats how love stories always end. They were meant to be together at first then time pasted and
they found out they still have these feelings and then end up together at the end. This is sort of a whole
other story compared to Nora and Torvalds situation.
[Message #38 11:49:41 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
yea so what do you guys think nora is going to do now?
[Message #39 11:49:53 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
she and torvald left each other
[Message #40 11:52:14 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
What did you think of Mrs. Linde's actions at the end? How does the relationship she has with Krogstad
compare with Nora and Elmer's?
[Message #41 11:52:51 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Orion Smith:
The two relationships are exact opposites
[Message #42 11:53:08 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
Torvald might have to figure out how to interact with his children since in the play it seems they are in
separete worlds. Nora probably has to figure out how to live without Torvald's money and to be
independent.
[Message #43 11:54:05 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
jinkyrhea santamaria:
yeah thats true the troubles and trials krogstad and linde went through should make them a stronger
couple compare to nora and torvald. in mrs linde story, it shows how in the end she was left with
nothing.. after her husband died and i feel like nora got that sense as well when she got push down by
torvald.. if nora was to stay with torvald she also would end up mrs lind which is why she wanted to get
out of their marriage..
[Message #44 11:54:22 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Ariana Bickham:
I think that Krogstad and Mrs. Linde have a more genuine relationship than what Nora and Torvald had
[Message #45 11:54:54 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
especially since they had a past and new eachother already.
[Message #46 11:55:02 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Emma Quadra:
knew*
[Message #47 11:55:47 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
their relationship i think flipfloped at the end at first Mrs. Linde and krogkstad where single and unhappy
with there lives and Nora and Torvald were them they both switch roles
[Message #48 11:55:47 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Orion Smith:
Mrs Linde is more like the Torvald in their relationship as shes the one with the job
[Message #49 11:55:51 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Ariana Bickham:
yea, it'll make their relationship much stronger now
[Message #50 11:56:52 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
tamara abualhsan:
thats true
[Message #51 11:57:33 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
jinkyrhea santamaria:
@ tamara thas so true.. nora n t were happy by appearance.. but linde and krogs are going to be happy
genuinely
[Message #52 11:58:17 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Bogdan Kurpita:
emma: i agreee with u
The kids were always out of the picture. They were not seen OR heard....
always in their own world that Torvald was not a part of..
In that time era a single dad was pretty uncommon. A widower either had a lot of servants who helped
him raise the kids, like the nanny who would probably stay on with the kids regardless of who had
custody of them.
Torvald would have get more involved in the lives of his children, which for him is hard to do with
anyone. He treats everone as if he is superior to them and so I think that if he does not change as a
person, then his children will not want to stay with him either.
Interchange Conference Transcript
I:\DIWE5NET\CLASSES\kwong03\CHAT\RedSox
[Message #1 09:09:27 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Copy and paste your response to one of the five assigned questions for “A Doll’s House” from 480-481:
2,3,4,5 or 8.
[Message #2 11:21:42 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
Riana Mesias
Krogstad’s True Character
Question #4: Is Krogstad presented as a conventional villain, or are we meant to sympathize with him?
Explain.
In response to this question, the answer would be both depending on how one looks at the
situation of the story. In one instance, Krogstad can be seen as the conventional villain or as Nora fans
would say, “No, the strange man won’t do mother any harm” (438). In which he is a strange man indeed
and not only that but will lead to poor Nora’s ruin in that she will lose her credibility to her husband
which would ultimately lead to her family’s ruin. Nora gains the audiences approval and likeability just
as she has gained her status with her husband by being the “little twittering lark” that is not only playful
and very loving to her husband and children, but is the one that the viewers will feel sorry because of
the burden of the secret that she carries. Throughout the story, the sense of the time period and the
background of the Helmer family is established in that the setting takes place in England during a time in
which women did not have individual rights and that their rights belonged to their husbands. How this
plays into the context of the story is that Nora had to find a ways of earning money by becoming a
seamstress during the time when her husband, Torvald was very sick. She did this unbeknownst to her
husband and with the help of Krogstad, she was able to forge a check. Because Krogstad is blackmailing
her in order to hold his job at the bank, which Torvald is now the head manager of, Krogstad is seen as
the conventional villain, who is threatening Nora.
On the other hand, and I think this develops as the story progresses is that Krogstad should be
sympathized in that he had to go through many of life’s obstacles such as losing his wife, being the only
provider for his children, and maintaining his sense of honor, “If necessary, I am prepared to fight for my
small post in the Bank as if I were fighting for my life (439).” Furthermore, Krogstad appears as he does
throughout the play because the play mostly surrounds Nora and her dilemma and the way that
Krogstad is tied into it is portrayed as someone who is the villain, in that he blackmails her in order to
achieve what he wants, which is more than just holding his job at the bank but to maintain his honor
and support his family, “My sons are growing up; for their sake I must try and win back as much respect
a I can in this town (439).” In the end the viewers see Krogstad for who he really is in that he wishes to
stop blackmailing Nora because in his heart he knows that it isn’t right and would not gain him any
benefit, “a shipwrecked man clinging to some wreckage (464)”. In the end a good fortune is bestowed
upon him in that Mrs. Linde and he plan to get married, “I had never had such an amazing piece of good
fortune in my life (466).”
[Message #3 11:21:54 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
Question 8:
At what point in the action does Nora begin to understand the truth of her situation and take
responsibility for her life?
Answer:
The point at which Nora gains realization of her situation is after hearing Torvald's response to
the letter from Krogstad containing Nora's criminal action of forgery. Torvald's reply of outrageous and
demeaning words towards Nora, in addition to the blatant disrespect and blame for her actions he place
on her father, only made it easier for Nora to further fully understand her situation. After not receiving
the response she hoped for from Torvald, which would have been for him to take the blame for her
criminal action and not let his wife go down in shame without her husband's fighting effort, Nora, in a
glimpse of a moment, reevaluates the past eight years of her marriage with Torvald and the years
growing up with her father, "I have been greatly wronged, Torvald - first by papa and then by
you…When I was at home with papa, he told me his opinions…so I had the same opinions; and if I
differed from him I concealed that fact, because he would not have liked it," (475-476) in this instance
Nora comes to the true understanding of her life, Nora realizes that she has constantly been oppressed
and held down by her father and now her husband by being this young childish little girl symbol that
constantly need tending and nurturing, "I was simply transferred from papa's hands into yours…you and
papa have committed a great sin against me. It is your fault that I have made nothing of my life" (476).
As Nora expresses her true feelings to Torvald, she is able to take the biggest step of her life by leaving
behind her husband and children and something that would have been expected of Nora earlier in the
act, which would be to worry about money and extravagant things, is no longer of matter to her, "In any
case I set you free from all obligations…I can receive nothing" (480). What Nora in all instances, in the
conclusion of this act does, is stand up and out of the "role" women have been put in for numerous of
year. Nora come to full understanding that she has been blinded in life by protective men and wealth,
living, what she thought, was a comfortable happy life as a "doll-child"
[Message #4 11:23:46 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
what action makes Nora think about her situation and to take responsibiltiy?
"A Doll's House" by Ibsen depicts a dissenter wife (Nora) who has been treated like a doll all her
life by her father and her husband. Since Nora is raised like a child, doll, or a fantasy by her father and
her husband, she does not notice any differences when she is married to Helmer until the final break out
between Nora and her husband happened. Throughout her the marriage, Nora is treated like a child or a
student more than a wife of her husband. Her husband's indulgences have made her a spoiled child, and
he takes her as a pressure for himself rather than a wife for love. All the time, her husband calls her a
"my skylark, my squirrel, my little- song bird". In addition, throughout the marriage life, there is no
serious discussion between them about their marriage, and all the time, Helmer is teaching Nora what
to do and what not to do. That overshadows Nora's role as a wife instead of should be discussing
together.
However, all of those have changed when Helmer read Krastog's letter left for her. After reading
the letter, Helmer is so angry and blames Nora for her thoughtless idea. He pronounces her " a
hypocrite, a liar- worse a criminal" ( 472). And Nora believes that she is not to be blamed for saving her
husband's life. And if he loved her, he would not denounce her like that, instead, he would find a
solution for her no matter what motto he has. And when he gets the letter from Krastog that he will not
disclose the secret, he shouts with joy and changes his tone when he talks to Nora. Nora starts to realize
that it is not me he is worried, but it is his reputation and dignity that he cares of, "You have ruined all
my future" (473). Throughout the married life, she always thinks her husband as high moral person and
good man, but the drastic change in one night alters her perspectives on her husband.
Since she is indulged by her father at young age, she cannot identity the truth love from the
pressure. She loves her father, and her father indulges her. She thinks the pleasure as a love, and when
Helmer offers pleasure her throughout the marriage. She mistakes that pleasure as a love. Both Helmer
and Nora think they love each other because they mistake pleasure with love.
Also when her husband says, "But I shall not allow you to bring up the children", she might think
that she is not capable to raise the children with her present knowledge. When she lives with her father,
she heeds what her father says and comments. When she is married, Helmer replaced her father's role,
and he always tells her what to do. She never has a chance to decide her own expect for the case that
she borrowed money when Helmer was sick. And she questions her ability when Helmer told her that
she is not allowed to raise her own children. That is one thing that makes her to think to become a more
responsible person. Secondly, since she decides to leave the house, and her husband who always tells
her what to do, she thinks she needs to think and do things more radically and responsibly. Besides, all
her life, she has been overshadowed by her father and her husband, she wants to think and understand
over herself when she finally digs out the reality. Helmer's reactions to Krogstad's letter has made Nora
to understand her own situations and conditions.
[Message #5 11:30:37 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Is Krogstad motivated only by greed? What compels him to threaten that he'll blackmail Nora?
[Message #6 11:32:07 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
I don't think that Krogstad's motivated by greed, but more of the idea that he needs to support his
family and uphold his honor to his sons and the community.
[Message #7 11:32:12 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
i do not think krogstad is only motivated by greed. in her conversatinon with Nora, he says he wants his
reputation for his family's sake.
[Message #8 11:35:07 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
I totally agree Mathwe. Did you guys also think that he was a bad person that just wanted to blackmail
Nora in the beginning?
[Message #9 11:35:23 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
REPLY TO QUESTION 4 (riana)
i do agree with your response...i felt that in the beginnning of the play Krogstad was objectified
as a vilian, becuase he was blackmailing Nora, but in any instance if you read deeper into the text NOra
could be protrayed as a villian as well, its just she was able to hid behind a mask of childish way until she
had to unveil her indentical criminal actions as Krogstad...In a way i feel that both Nora and Krogstad can
be corresponding characters...in the begining of the story its clear that Krogstad is a viallan for black
mailingNora but then it also shows that Nora has her own villian-like secret...and in the concluding of
the plan, they both take a turn for the better...Krogstad surreneders Nora's bond and agrees to let her
be in her life...and Nora comes to relization that she has been living a long lived unhappy life, and finally
takesa a stand to do better for herself
[Message #10 11:35:38 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
by the way, i love your view on Krogstad character. How his fortune has made her that kinds of person >
Riana
[Message #11 11:37:29 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
i dont feel he was motivated by greed, id say more so out of desperation to live a comfortable stable
lifestyle for him and his family and be able to continue his , as Krogstad would ut it, rehablitation is
becoming a better man and making up for his past mistakes
[Message #12 11:37:40 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
but i think Nora believes that it is not wrong to forge a sign or being a crimial to save her husband's life
and spare her father life
[Message #13 11:37:42 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
Thank you! Aurielle, do you really think that Nora's a villain or is it because she is a villain for hiding her
secret from her husband. I don't really think that she's a villain, but more like a victim in that she is a
woman that just wanted to help her children and her husband and if her secret was revealed she would
be blamed for it; in a way being blamed for doing something good.
[Message #14 11:38:19 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
But I can see how she can be a villain because she was hiding a secret, so I think that 's a good point! :)
[Message #15 11:38:26 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
i agree with you Riana . she is more like a victim of the society and her husbad's high moral principles
[Message #16 11:39:10 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
no, not at all...i wouldnt consider her a villian...just as Krogstad decision to black mail Nora was out of
desperation to save his family and himself...i feel Nora did the same to support her family and self
[Message #17 11:39:59 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
yeah yeah exaclty ( Arielle)
[Message #18 11:40:01 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
wait i did just say she was a villian lol...i was refering to her being a villian from keeping the secret and
bragging about it in the way she did to Mrs. Linde
[Message #19 11:40:52 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
But you know what I do agree with Aurielle and I think that it's a good point. that Krogstad and her are
very similar characters in that both of them are looked down upon because she is a woman and he did
something bad like forging a signature, but if you look at the reasons for doing it, which were both for
the love of family, then I wouldn't say that they are bad people at all.
[Message #20 11:41:21 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
himmm.. good point
[Message #21 11:41:50 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
Yeah, I do agree that Nora is a sweet person and has good intentions, but the way she acts like bragging
to Mrs. Linde is not a good attribute.
[Message #22 11:42:02 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
exactly...although yes it is a crime...just as people do crazy things when they are in love..people will do
the same if not more for the sake of thier family
[Message #23 11:42:22 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
what do you two think happened to Krogstad and Mrs. Linde???
[Message #24 11:42:30 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
yes, that's totally true Aurielle!
[Message #25 11:42:43 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
thanks!! :)
[Message #26 11:43:35 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
i didnt like how the play ended the way it did with only Nora and Torvald...we can assume that Rank
killed himself because the card...but i dont like being left in the dark not knowing what happend the
Krogstad and Mrs. Linde
[Message #27 11:43:53 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
i feel bad for Doctor Rank taht he secretly fell in love with Nora
[Message #28 11:43:59 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
I think they got married and I'm happy for them because in the end I think that Krogstad's true character
comes out in that he decides not to blackmail Nora anymore because he had "a new fortune", Mrs.
Linde. I thought that was the only happy part in the book. What'd you think of the end? I was sad.
[Message #29 11:44:29 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
Me too! Poor Doctor Rank, but I think that he's the same as Torvald, she's just gonna be the twittering
little lark.
[Message #30 11:45:18 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
True, Nora and Krogstad committed crimes, but what were they motivated by? Was it simply self
interest?
[Message #31 11:45:21 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
Isn't wierd how Nora is the twittering little lark and now she's the twittering little lark that got some
sense into her and flew away! Hahahaha..
[Message #32 11:45:27 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
yeah. but i dont like Torvald in the whole play. he is acting like he knows everything and an adament
person
[Message #33 11:46:15 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Whoops-- ignore my question-- as I catch up with your conversation, I see you've already addressed
them.
[Message #34 11:46:19 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
Im not to sure...when they first meet at the back door, and reading the conversation thery were having i
kind of thought that Mrs. L was going to to some shady business, like convience him she still loved him
and then turn around and take his job and just put him in a lower state of mind...but then on the other
hand you could see how Mrs. L is a very promiing influence on him and in addtion Nora as well, because
she constantly stresse the issue of honesty
[Message #35 11:47:04 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
@ karen
Yes they did committ crimes, but not out of self interest, but to sacrifice one's honor for one's family
and to sacrifice the self in order to maintain society's role of what a man should do, what a woman
should do.
[Message #36 11:47:09 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
WE'RE WAY AHEAD OF YOU MS. WONG!! :) ...jus kidding!!...dont deduct points for this comment!!
[Message #37 11:47:59 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
Yes, she does seem to be bragging to Mrs. Linde. She seems to be able to be honest to only two people:
Mrs. Linde and Dr. Rank. Why do you suppose that's the case?
[Message #38 11:48:29 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
@ Aurielle
I know that was confusing! Because at first wasn't Mrs. L there to get the letter then she wants to leave
it? Why? What do you guys think, I thought that part of the play was confusing too.
[Message #39 11:49:55 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
we can compare Doctor Rank and Nora in the play becaues they suffer from their fathers' bad behaviors.
also Nora and Kragstad because they both did commit crimes for their family. but for Helmer he only
cares about his reputation and future. throughtout the play, he set a certain distance from his family
includeing his children.
[Message #40 11:50:29 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
I feel as though, she did in some way feel sorry for Nora and want to protect her...but then i see that as
she has the conversation with Krogstad, she realizes that these people have all be living it lies and that
the outcome is never a good one and decides that the truth for all should come to light so everyone can
move on from that
[Message #41 11:51:03 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
oh yeah.. thanks Arielle .. i never see that point
[Message #42 11:51:07 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
MARIE HOM:
I think she wanted him to leave the letter because she thought Nora and Torvalds marriage wouldnt last
if she continued to keep secrets from him because if she got away with her secret then she would just
continue to lie to her family.
[Message #43 11:52:03 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
I know why does she have full confidence in these two people? Weren't they the ones that she told her
little secret too? I would probably think she trusts these two people because they have no purpose. I
mean Mrs. Lindes says that she has no purpose because she has no one to provide for and Dr. Rank says
that he's going to die soon, but you see I don't know how this ties...what do you guys think?
[Message #44 11:52:12 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
overall im not to sure of that conversation though, because i was confused when they first started taking
and them my view changed towards the end of thier conversation and then not knowing what happens
to them in then end just leaves me in confusion of the end result between them two
[Message #45 11:52:54 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
So do you guys think that Mrs. Linde did Nora a favor? Mathwe, did you like the ending?
[Message #46 11:53:57 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
yeah i think the ending i like how Helmer suffers lol
[Message #47 11:54:03 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
I think she tolf them her secret because she didnt feel inferior to them as she did to Torvald and her
father...because with Torvald she had to constantly meet his needs and standards, like not eating the
maccaroons and with her father if she disagreed with his opion she hid them because she knew he
wouldnt like that...
[Message #48 11:54:21 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
I think that Nora leaves her husband and her children and decides to live with Mrs. Linde in order to find
who she really is and her worth in life. I hope that answers your question Aurielle, cause I was confused
too! :)
[Message #49 11:54:33 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
good point . Arielle
[Message #50 11:55:05 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
so in a way telling them that SHE was the one who basically got her family where is it today, that
without her secret her husband would be nothing without her, gives her a sense of superiorty over her
husband
[Message #51 11:55:38 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
Mathewe, that's so mean, but it's funny because I think that he does deserve it, but I still feel bad, I was
hoping that he would say sorry to Nora and change for her, but we'll never know Ibsen had to write A
Doll's House part II
[Message #52 11:55:46 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
yes Riana, that was one of my conclusions as well
[Message #53 11:55:49 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
does Nora say she will leave her famliy with Mrs. L .
[Message #54 11:56:11 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
That's a good point Aurielle, I never saw that, maybe that's why she had a lot of confidence in them.
[Message #55 11:56:14 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
no, she leaves her family, and will live with Mrs L
[Message #56 11:56:28 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
thanks Riana
[Message #57 11:56:44 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
oh yea. i see the point now.
[Message #58 11:57:15 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
OMG!! i was relly upset when Nora said she was going to leave her children without saying
goodbye!!...please tell me you guys agree!!??
[Message #59 11:58:24 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Mathwe Han:
oh yeah.. yeah.. i feel bad for the children.
[Message #60 11:58:32 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
Me too! I felt so sad! It's because Torvald said she was unfit to take care of them. In the end she feels
that she's unfit to take care of them. I felt sad too because of that part! But I think in order to find out
who she is she had to make some sacrifice.s
[Message #61 11:58:38 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
karen wong:
That begs the question: was her leaving the family an act of courage?
[Message #62 11:59:07 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
i mean i can completely understand if she feels she has to find who she is and she doesnt love Torvald,
but those are her children, i dont understand how she could just leave them without a word and feel no
remorse for her actions...i feel that was honestly a selfish move of her to make and although i was happy
she was leaving to find her self, that part of the play was the worst for me
[Message #63 11:59:11 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Riana Mesias:
because in a way I think Nora saw that she was doing the same thing to her children how Torvald and
her dad treated her, "her little darlings."
[Message #64 11:59:58 AM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
Arielle Bronson:
thanks yall!!..you were great!!
[Message #65 12:00:01 PM, Wednesday, March 24, 2010]
MARIE HOM:
it might be a way of not facing them. like how she didnt want to face torvald and tell him about her
secret