1
351
C.J. v.d. MERI'/E
point of view towards South Africa.
Yes. -- Now, it is one of the very important points
of departure of the Communist as well as the A.N.C. that in
order to launch a successful campaign it should analyse the
situation as thoroughly as possible. This is, in my vie Vi , part
of that
~hole
process of analysing, in other words, in order
t 9 find the strong points and weak points and in order t.o
adapt the
campai~
accordingly.
This doesn't appear to be a book written as part
of a campaign? -- No, not as part of a campaign, no, but it (1 0)
is part of basic material that can 'be used.
rt presents a particular viewpoint, and i f someone
wants to use .it to further hi.s particular ends, well, good and
well, but that is not, dbesn't appear to be the status on
which this book, and the purpose for which this book has
been written. -- Not the express purpose, no, but I mean
I am pretty sure that it can be used for this purpose.
I'm sure al.l;lo that opponents of
di~investment,
people who advocate continued investment by multi-national
oOrPorations could probably find useful material in thet book(20)
to advocate oontinued investment?
It ,contains a
g~at,
-- Well, it's less likely.
fram what I've seen just flipping
through it, a great deal of factual material, statisti cal
material, tables and analyses and so on. -
Yes, but it has
been selected fram an unsympathetic point of view.
And I imagine that to launch eny kind of campaign,
whether it be by the A.N.C. or whoever, one needs to have an
analysis of a situation before a campaign can be launched.
There'~
nothing pecular to the A.N.C. or the Communist Party
in that? -
(30)
No.
'All4 in fact,
,
~ he re
have been so manY' works analysing
the/_·· ...
352
C. J . v.d. 1,1ER,'E
the whole political , economic structure of South Africa , hean tt
there? -- Yes , there heve been many.
~
And dealing with the possible effect of sanctions
South Africa , of disinvestment on South Afric a an d so on,
reads it all the time..
one
-- If one, for instanc e , would c ompa r e
this book to the book of Gann and Duignan , " Ho·" long will South
Africa survive?" , then it presents a fairly different p i cture
and , you knaN , it comes to fairly different conclusions .
Yes , there are tremendous dicogrccment o ab out the
fut ure of this country and what is likely to :,appen and how (10)
and when .
COURT :
1m.
Compare it to whet book?
KUNY: Gann and Duignan , - " How long will South (interruption)
COURT:
Gann and?
I,m. KID!Y: And Duignan , D-u-i-g-n-a-n, I think
i t is spelt. Th e
ti tIe of the book is "How long will South Africa survive?!!.
I mean , if you would r efer to what I have said here , I just
said thet it could be used, I didn't say that it was the
exp ress purpose of the book •
•
No, all right.
Well , in other words , the fact thet ( 20)
em page 247 it expresses a pro-A.N.C. view is there to be r ead
on the page ; -- Yes.
Hmv it could be
and that
Vias
used is a matter of opinion. -- Yes ,
my opinion wh ich I expressed.
Professor, just a couple of other documents I want
you to look at, you mentioned document 111 , that is A97 and
you referr ed to it on page 9 of your notes , " SANA bulletin,
August 1979 - Swart Bevnwsynsbeweging so ge!nterpreteer word
dat dit aansluit by die doelstellinge van die A. N. C." Now, SANA
appears to be the South African News Agency .
-- Ja, ek dink (30)
nou ( interruption)
Yoo./ .•.....•.
353
C.J. v.d • •IERVIE
You mow that (interruption) -- No, I don't IrnOVI
the (interruption)
•
Organization. -- Organization, no.
Now, you. say "indicates a coincidence of doelstellings
of the Black Consciousness movement and. the A.N. C." -- No,
basically what I think it is, is that the Black Consc; ousness
movement came up with the definition of ideology whi ch was
not sort of coincident with that of the A.N.C., in other words
there was a divergence of opinions, but then since, especially
Gince the middle of the seventies and especially after 1977 (1 0 )
when the Black Oonsciousness organizations were prohibited,
one foUnd an increasing tenden cy of people trying to bring
theBe two together to argue the Black Consciousness case in
such a way as that it is not really in conflict with th e
A.N~C.
point· of view, I mean this was obviously, you Irnow,
the many Black Consciousness people left South Afri ca and the
A.N.C. was keen to draw them in into their own fold and so they
went to the peQple and said "Look, you are Black Consciousness
people but basically we think the same" •
•
In other Vlords, to try and co-ordinate different
( 20)
viewpoints and to provide s political home for people wh os e
political home had been taken away from them, so to speak. Put it that way, if you wish .
But at the same time there waS quite a wide divergence
of objectiyes and
interests, wasn't there? -- No, not of
objectives and interests, maybe, but basically the main
divergence was the basis an which people were to be mobilized
and the way in which they set to work, and so forth.
Then there w as one other document , document A8),
this is no. 7 on page 2 of your G2 list, A83.
This is headed ( 30 )
"Rumblings in· the Mother City" the unrest in Cape Town , that
doesn ·t/ ...... . .
354
C. J. v . d .
Mr.R':~
doesn ' t seem to bear a date , do you movi v/here this comes
from, from ,.,hat (int erruption) -- No, I don 't lolo'll what
publication it is taken from .
Do rou lolow who the authors are? -- No , I (interruption)
Could rou identify them? -- No,
I don ' t think so .
And it Seems to be an analysis of political and
I
resistance and organizatiWl by the Black population in the
I
\'i estem Cape dealing specificallr "Iith ( interruption) -- It
I·
deals with tho period in the late fiftieG und 1960.
It 's a kind of histor ical account . -- Yes .
(10)
And it contains sane 37 footnotes with references
fran nev,spapers and deals with the breakawar of the P.A . C.
from the A. N. C. -- Amongst
o~her
thines, yes , and I think nhut
it t r ies to, or the consluaions that it comes to is that the
P . A~C .
acted wronglr and the A. N. C. acte t] in the correct war .
How, you said , UDit is sterk pro-Swart en anti-
regering, kritiee van die P.A.C en gunstig teenoor die A. l'l.C .1.I.-
That ' s right .
Y,l'len you Bay IIgunstig" you mean lIe>"'1>ressing approval
of ll~
__ Ja , "expressing approval of" .
( 20 )
You dan ' t know that this document is banned? -- No ,
I don't lmow,
And the basic theme of it is that the Black
people are oppressed
and they resisted the oppression during
that period and tIle war in which the P.A . C. set about i t was.
wrong and the war in which the A.I1 . C. set about it was right
(inaudible)
Yes , O. K.
flly
attention has been drawn to one other
document , r ' m sorry , I thought I was finished , there is the
document called, I think it is number D12 , document no. 12 on
(30)
page 3 .
COURT :
The third number l2?
MR . KUNY/ •••
C.J. v.d. j,lZR';'E
355
r,JR.
KUllY: The third n o. 12, yes .
Your cormnent on that was
"'n Pamflet, 'n studie stuk, anvolledig, 'Nat ui tgereik is na
aanleiding van die skoolboikotte.
Dit moedig verdere skole-
boikotte aan en plaas die perspektief daarop dat hierdie boikot
deel is van 'n
bre~r
vryheidsstryd lt •
That·s right.
Now, who was the Committe of ' Sl? -- It was a
c cmmitte formed in the \'Iestern Cepe of people involved in the
education , in Black education .
And (interruptioN)
COURT :
In the Cape by people involved? -- By people involved(lO)
with Black education .
But it was an informal body \';I1ich had
sort of varying membership.
1m. KUNY: How, there were apparently c ontroversies surrounding
the suspension of the school boycott in the Cape in May 1980.
-- That is right.
And the Committe of 81 felt it necessary to
e ~ plain
Vlhy there had been the suspension of the boycott . -- That is
right.
How, in this document , is it not correct that the
•
Committee
called for a disciplined and organized non-violent ( 20)
activity? -- Yes.
Rest ricted to the perimeter of the school grounds. -I can't remember that accurately, that might be so.
And certainly oppos ed to the sort of haphazard and
sometimes violent actions which bad. taken place . -- Yes, I would
concede that , I mean, the point is, shall I say, I mean I didn ' t
say any more than that except that what I think is important
also is that they see it as part of the wider struggle .
Yes , perhaps , I wont argue about that , but the
point is that it is a document which represents
a
kind of (30)
responsible and disciplined approach, not a haphazard, violent
and/· ...... . .
356
C . J.
v.n.
r.!Eh"/E
and undisciplined approach . --- No .
And somewhere it says , "We have achieved much with
the boycott but the struggle
continues and the hardest battle
is the rat tle to be fought in the classroom". the battle of
ideas .
We accused have set ourselves to fieht that battle and to wir
that bat t le . tI
---
Yes .
1'10 FURTHER QUESTIONS •
•
I
35'1
Prof. Van der Merwe.
(BELT 57).
Professor ok 1s jammer, ken
AANKLAER:
OOB
maar weer oorslaan
U net vir die Ho! vsrtsl dat daar
na Afrikaans.
wye ver-
~
skeidenneid van boeke oor die leer van die Marxistiese sosialieme
is, pro-Marxisme, anti-Marxieme en objektief gesien.
~ ind~k,
I.
geneel indruk, oor die
~
het en wat
in
~
dok~mente
wat
~
Wat wa s
te lese gekry
G.l sn G.2 bsnandsl het vir soverre
bewysst~
verwys of slaan of be trekking net op Marxisme? --- Die breij
1ndruk wat
~
mens kr,y eeratens, van die boake 1 8 dat hulls v an
~
gesofistikeerde aard is, maar dat
komm~nistiese
dok~ente
h~lle
gaan en dan
vertrekp~nt
dink ek kan mene
s~
baeies
~it
n pro-
(10
die, ek meen die
~it
val bresdweg in drie kategori§.
As ons net eers die boeke en die
dok~ente
kan skei.
Dit
was u keuBe om eerstens kommentaar to mask oor die boake en
p~blikasiee.
daama oor die
--- Ja.
Wat n1e boeke is nie. --- Dit i. reg.
Die boeke het ons alreeds
~
kommentaar as synde dat dit
van n noe kwal1te1t is. --- Ja.
Alnoewel meestal
~1t
n
pro-komm~n1.tiese
vertrekp~nt •
•
DiB korrek.
U
ander
(20
wo~ ges~
dok~ente
net van die ander
kan
~
dok~ente?
--- Ek
wo~
sa
die
men. opdee1 in bas1es drie kategor1§.
Die aen katagoria 1s wat daarop gem1k 1s om mense ontevrede to
maek of om ontevredenhe1d te
st1m~leer
en dan die tweede groep
ste1 n a1ternat1ewe bede1ing voor.
Te wete? --- Bas1e. die
(t~ssenbeikoms)
Altemat1ewe? --- n Altemat1ewe bede11ng voor, bae1es
die idee van
~
Marxiet1ss8 staat in een of aDder vorm en dan 1s
daar derdens die groep
organ1B~sie
as aynde
fl
dok~ente
wat handel oor die spes1f1eke
(30
m1ddel om te beweeg van die onbevredigende
toe stand na die bevredigende toe stand.
Ek wi1 nie
s~
dat a1
/ die ...
Prof. Van de r Me rwe.
d1e dokumente noodwend1g een honderd persent aan een van h1erd1e
kategoriU 1ngedeel kan word n1e, maar d1t 1s d1s breU 1ndruk wat
~
mens kry as
~
~
mens na h1erd1e dokumente 1n hulle gsheel kyk.
Aandu1d1ng of salons d1t so stel, stsrk aanduiding van
en1ge anti-kommunistisee of ant1-marxist1ess publikasies ondsr
hierd1e groep? --- Nee, daar is, wat ak kan onthou, bitter
we1n1g wat krities 1e 6f teen die Kommuniste Party 6f teenoor
d1e A.N.C.
Die
Bitter weinig wat krities tsenoor hUlle is.
naaste wat n mene daaraan kom, is dat BOmm1ge van die soed
redellk objektief is, maar d1e ook
~
m1ndsrheid.
( 10
Wat sou u, in die lig van hisrdie stells, profsssor wat
sou
U Be,
as d1t verteenwoordigend mag Wese van n emetige
student se objekt1ewe studi.e in kommunisme en Marx1sme?
En
ondermyn1ng in Suid-Afrika? --- Msna moet net versk11 mask
tUBsen
~
etnst1gs student en
~
objektiewe studefit, want (tusssn-
be1koms)
Ja, wsl ek bedoel
want
ernst1gs objektiewe student. --- Ja,
~
twee goed gaan n18 altyd met mekaar saam nie.
di~
kan eom.
~
Mens
baie ernet1ge etudent he wat gladnie objaktief is
• en wat met aoder woorde
n1e,
gesofistikeerde materiael be-
(20
studeer, maar met die oog daarop om n bapaalde 1deologie te
bevorder, terwyl ae mens
objekt1ews student sou hA, dan sou
~
dit een wees wat basies probeer om kennis te bekom en dit dan
1n " seke ra s1n daarby te laat.
My indruk h1er 1s dat ons h1er
met - ek kan net praat v1r sover dit gaan, die dokumente wat ek
voor
my
gehad het - dat
~
ernat1ge atudie, maar v1r
mena hier te doen het bas1es met
~
bepaalde doel.
Profsaeor as ek mag terugkeer na u stelling dat die dokumente breedweg 1ngedeel mag Wees in drie groepe, die griewe, .
(J(
d1e alternatiewe bedel1ng en d1e m1ddel, naamlik die organisaaie
tot daard1s beraik is, ·hoe pas d1t in by die algemene tsoris van
/u. ·.
,59
u
Prof, Van der Merwe.
(geraaa in mikrofoon - onhoorbaar). --- Mena moet hierdie
drie stappe is in
~
sekere sin gemeenskaplik aan enige politieke
oortuiging is dat
~
mens eers die persoon moet ongelukkig maek
met wat by het en dan vir hom iets beter voorstel en dan vir hom
die middel aandui wat by daarvoor moet gebruik .
Di t is redelik
baaies in enige politieke oortuigings proees en aa sodanig is
dit ook
~
bais sterk fektor in die A.N.C. ee (gsraas in mikro-
foon - onhoorbaar).
Daar was nog iete, as u adele my net n oomb11k sal g un, ek
Speel die - sou die geskiedenis en geskied-(lO
dink ek is klaar.
kundige oorsig van Suid-Afrika, van gebeure in Suid-Afrika en
van die sosiale ekonomiese faktore in Suid-Afrika
~
rol epeel
by bierdie prosss tot betnvloeding? --- 0, Dngetwyfeld in
di~
sin dat enige ot sal ek s8 geen politieke beweging bestaan in
1601a818 n1s", aDder woorde 8S
'11
mens anige pol1 tieke beweg1ng
aan iamand prebear verkoop dan sou een deel van hisrdie verkoop
proses sou Waos u1twys van die historieS8 rol van daard1e
organiaasie.
,
Dit aou ongetwyfeld
~
sterk (tuasenbeikoma)
Geakiedenis wat voorafgegaan het? --- Ten einde aan te
toon hoe daardie ding - hoe die situaaie
waarin by n rol moet (20
apeel tot atand geko., bet, ja.
Dia al, dankie.
GEE!! VERDERE VRAE.
HOF VERDAAG.
HNKLAER:
HOF HSRVAT.
Ek
"n
net graag die Hof bedank vir die to elating
dat die Staat n bietjie laat was .,et die aanvang van die verhoor van.,iddag.
Ons bet bietjie proble.,e ondervind in n ander
aspek en moss toe eers u1tgesorteer bet.
vergunning.
Ek is dankbaar vir u
Your worship I will then proceed witb tbe trial
within a trial, whicb waa already started on Friday, tbe 2Otb.(30
Your Ylorship for the completeness of the record, I must make
/ ment1on ...
360
\'-'
mention at tnis stage that I nave handed in tne statement as
being a confession and therefore handed in in terms of Section
217 of the Criminal Code.
However, by that I do not wish to
be understood that I exclude tnis, the operation of Section 219
(A) from this sta tement and that in the event of it being found
that it ia a statement containing admissions and not a oon-
fession, the State would still argue that it is admissible in
terms of Section 2l9(A).
Yes Mr Kuny is there anything you wish to add?
COURT:
MR KUNY:
Yea, 1 t makes no differe nce yeur worship in tbe
(10
senee that whether the statement constitutes a confession in
terms of Section 219 or merely containes admission s - sorry,
in terms of 217 or contains admissions in terms of 219.
The
defence's contention is tnat on either basis it is inadmissible
because it was not freely and voluntarily made and so tne
eVidence will be the same.
COURT:
In other words the same rules and the same procedure
applies?
MR KUNY:
The samB considerations, yes, and I noW call accused
(20
No. •I, Guy Berger, to give evidence in tne trial within a trial.
~RIAL
WITHIN A TRI AI.
GUY JULIAN ELLIOT GOUGH BERGER, sworn states:
EXAMINATION BY MR KUNY:
Mr Berger how old are you? --- 24 .
When did you turn 24? --- In July, the 20th, last year.
And at the time of your detention, whicn we will deal with
in a moment, on 11 August of last year, were you a student and
a partt1me lecturer at Rhodes University? --- Yes, I was a
temporary junion lecturer.
(30
A temporary junior lecturer in what department? --- Journal1em Department.
l And ...
G.J.E.G. Berger.
361
And in what subjeot? --- In journalism.
And what were you a student of at the time? --- I was doing
a Master's degree under the Politics Department.
COURT:
Under the?
taR KUNY:
The Political Studies Department.
Vlere you living in Grahsmstown? --- Yes.
Where were you living? --- 28A Hill Street.
COURT:
Just repeat that again? --- 28A Hill Street.
MR KUNY:
Who else lived at that address? --- My girlfriend,
Jean Phunnett - P-h-u-n-n-e-t-t.
Yes?
Janet Shapiro, Richard de Villiers, and Lesley
(10
Cooper.
For how long had you been a student at Rhodes University?
I registered 1n 1975
and I
haVB
fOI
a Bachelor of Journalism degree
been studying since then.
Did you get your Bachelor (interrupted)
COURT:
The beginning of 1975? --- Yes.
taR KUNY:
Did you get your Bachelor of Journalism degree? ---
Yes.
What year? --- At the end of 1977 I graduated, with a
•
Baohelor of Journaliem.
( 20
What did you do in 1978 and 1979? --- In 1978 I studied for
an Honours degree in the Political Studies Department and (interrupted)
Did you get your Honours degree? --- Yes.
Yes? --- And in 1979 I began on
my
Master's degree which I
was still working on in 1980.
Now I have mentioned that you were detained on Monday, 11
August. --- That is correct.
Where were you at the time you were detai ned? --- I wae at
my
residence in Grahamstown, 28A Hill Street.
(30
Vlhat time of the day were you detained? --- I think it
/ was ...
1~
362
G.J.E.G. Berger.
was approximately 6.00 o'clock, half past 6.00 in the morning.
What had you been doing the previous night, tha t is the
- the 11th was a Monday. --- Yes.
What had you been doing on the Sunday night? --- I had been
working on an article and had been working tbroughout the night.
l
I went to sleep I tbink at about round 4.00 o'clock, just before
4.00 o ' clock in the morning.
And then what happened at 6.00 or 6.30?
knock at the door.
There was a
I went to the door and Bome pol ice sa id
they wanted to search the house.
(10
When you say police, how did you know they Were police?
They bad a search warrant.
Were they in plain clothes or were they in uniform? --Plain clothes, and they said I would have to accompany them
after the search.
Did they identify themselves? --- No.
Did you know any of them?
Had you had any contact with
any of them before? --- No.
How many police were there? --- I think there must have
•
been four or five.
And did they search the house? --- Yes, two of them searched
the room that I stayed in and the otbars searched other parts
oftba house.
Did they take anything away with them? --- They took a few
books, one or two, and aome poeters.
And they said that you would have to accompany them? --Yes, that 1s correct .
Did the y say Whereto and why? --- My girlfriend Jean
Phunnett asked them if I was being detained and they said it
just for questioning.
And so did you accompany thsm? --- Yes, that is correct.
/Where •••
~as
I
363
To
wsre you taken?
W~ere
Had you ever been at
G.J.E.G. Berger.
t~at
police station.
t~e Gra~amstown
police station befors?
that police station before?
Once or twice, yes.
COURT:
Oncs or twice.
I cannot hear you?
MR KUNY:
In
w~at
Or in
connection? --- Recovery of stolen student
books and ••• I had been taken there once before in 1978 when
t~e
police raided a farm I was living on. . They took me there
for a bout half an
,.
~our.
For aboat a balf an hour? --- Yes.
I
And
COURT:
t~en
released you?
W~en
was
~ad
In 1978.
you say?
t~at
You say that was
(10
w~en t~ey
raided a
where you
farm~ouse
been living? --- Yes.
T~t
MR KUNY:
COURT:
is the ' Allandale farm? ---
T~at
is correct.
T~e?
MR KUNY:
Allandale farm.
Now what happened
w~en
you got to
the police station? --- I just sat in the waitingroom at first
and another student,
Mic~ael
Kenyon was
broug~t
in and we were
told not to converso.
Was
o~arge
~e
left in
t~e
waitingroom
wit~
you? --- Well in
t~e
(20
office of the police station just in the front of the
pOlice station.
Then after about half an hour we Were taken to
the Security Police offices.
Are t~ey
COURT:
MR KUNY:
at a separate (interrupted)
Taken to what? --- Taken to the Security Police offices.
Ars they at a separate place? --- Yes, they are at
a separate place.
Did you see any other students there? --- Yes, at the
Security Police offices I saw two
ot~er
Rhodes students.
Yes? --- Ashwin Desai.
COURT:
Sorry, who wsre they? --- Ashwin -
(30
A-s-~-w-i-n
Desai
l and .••
l
364
G.J.E.G. Berger.
and Iran Wentworth.
Iran?
MR KUNY:
Yes.
Now what happened when you got there? --- We were all
sitting in a sort of a waiting room at the Security Police
offices and one by one the others were handcuffed and taken
away.
Were you handcuffed? --- Only later on when I was taken
away, in the afternoon.
Now did anyone identify himself to you, anyone of the
police? --- No, not that I can recall, no.
(10
How long were you left waiting there? --- Thsre were two
security polioemen constables thsre who sat with me once the
other detainees had been taken away.
Yes? --- Then Captain Oosthuizen, head of the Grahamstown
Security Police, came in and told them they should interrogate
me.
Had Captain Ooethu1zen been one of the persona who had
detained you that morning? --- No.
Not.
So did the two young constables interrogate you? ---
•
Yes, they asked me general questions about politics, starting
(2C
off saying to me what I thought of the A.N.C.
COURT:
MR KUNY:
Were they also in civilian dress?
Did you talk to them?
Yee.
Did you answer them? --- Yes,
I answered them.
COURT:
They aeked you what did you eay? --- They asked me what
I ttlought of ttle A.N.C.
MH KUNY:
And did they note down any of your answere? --- No,
they did not write anyttling down.
Were you told at that stage Whether you were obliged to
(30
answer questions that were being put to you? --- No, not at all.
I assumed that I had to' answer.
;Why •••
365
\ I
G.J. E.G. Berger.
I assumed that the Security
Why did you assume that?
Police would be able to arreat me and question me, you know,
formally arrest me and question me if I did not.
Yes , and you believed that you had to anewer? --- Yes.
And did they aek you s bout anything elee? --- They a sked
me a few general political questions, what I thought about
Steve Biko,
Did
P.W. Botha, I CRnnot remember what else.
th~t
go on for long? --- Say that l a sted about three-
qua rtcrn of nn hour.
~Iow
what wae the next thing that happened? --- After tha t(lO
they left and I eat in a different office with a Sergeant
!leveling .
Did he question you?
COURT:
-~-
No.
In an office with? --- With a Sergeant Neveling.
You say
MR !CUNY:
he did not question you? --- No, he did not
question me.
Thereafter? --- I eat there the whole morning an d a bit of
the afternoon with him and then Bometime I think m1d-a£ternoon
Captain Oosthu1zen arrived •
•
Now just stop there a mamen t.
At that et age had you had (2<
anything to eat? --- Well I had been woken up when the police
first came to 28A Hill Street , so I had not had anything to
eat or had not been able to wash either, and at lunch this
Sergeant Neveling had given me a ha lf a cheese sandwich from
his lunch.
COURT:
All you had had aince waking up was half a cheese aend-
wich? --- Yes, that is correct.
MR !CUNY:
Did they give you anything to drink?
Coffee, tea,
anythin g? --- I think they gave me a cup of tea in the morning .
So you say that at eometima in the afternoon Captain
Oosthuizen arrivad? ___ oYes.
(30
I am sorry, I neglected to
/ mention •••
G.J. E.G. Berger.
mention, he did arrive for a little while in the morning and
I
said to him that - I asked him if I could mark some essays
because I had a lot of marking to do, and I was just sitting
there, not - they were not bothering with me at all, and on
thie occasion this Captain Oosthuizen said in response to my
request (interrupted)
I.
COURT:
He must? --- He said in response to my request that
I was from that moment detained under Section 22.
,.
I
I
Carryon.
MR KUNY:
When he said that you were detained under Section
(10
22, did he explain what that meant? --- No.
Did you aak him to explain what it meant? --- I knew more
or less what Section 22 meant because two friends of mine had
been detained in the recent past under Section 22.
How long before your detention? --- Well a month before my
?
detention a friend of mine, Chris Watson, had been detained
under Section 22.
How did you know that? --- It wae reported in the newspapers
and he is a friend of mine and people Were talking about it at
•
university.
Yes.
(20
Anybody else? --- Then this pereon who 1s co-accused
with me.
Mr Pillay? --- Yes.
He had been detain e d two weeks be-
fore I had been detained, and I knew he had been switched to
Section 6, as had the other person, Chris Viatson.
Now how did you know that?
It was either in the news-
papers or on the talk on Rhodes campus because it 1s not a very
big
campUB,
you know I
and also these two people were friends of mine t
foun~I
BO
knew that they had been detained a nd that .is
what they were being held under, an d what it meant.
Now what did you think this Section 22 meant? --- l'Iell I
/knew •..
(30
,/
367
G.J.E.G. Berger.
knew that it meant that you were held for 2 weeks without accesS
to a lweyer.
Yes.
COURT:
You knew that you could be held? --- Yes, for two weeks
without access to a lawyer.
MR
l
h~Y:
COURT:
And thereafter, after (interrupted)
That is in terms of Section 22? --- Yes.
And what would hap pen after two weoks? --- l'Iell I
tlR !CUNY:
hod seen that theae two friends of mine had been tranaferred to
Section 6 of the Terrorism Act after there two .. eeks.
(10
So did you ask Captain Oosthuizeo anything at all about
tne detention that he said you wsre under that Section? --- No,
I did not.
What did you think at that point about your detention?
Well I knew that they had been arrasted but I did not think that
I was involved in anything with them that merited detsnt10n
under Section 6 of the Terrorism Act.
When you apeak about them do you mean the otber two people
tnat you have referred to?
Watson and P111ay.
•
COURT:
You did not think you sey? --- Um •••
(20
You were involved? --- I did not think that anything I bad
I
done with them merited detention under tne Terrorism Act.
I
That 1e Watson and Rensburg? --- Pilley.
I'
,.
Vlatson and Pilley. --- Correct.
MR
That merited your detention or their detention? ---
!CUNY:
Meri ted
my
detention.
Your detention.
So in response to this question of your
request to be allowed to mark papers, you Were told that you were
detained under Section 22 from that moment on? --- That is
correct.
(30
And were you told what was going to happen to you in terms
/ of ...
\ 0-
368
G.J. E. G. Berger.
of Section 22? --- I wae not told tnat morning, but later on
the second - well wnen Captain Oostnuizen came in tne afternoon.
Yee. --- He spoke to me.
And wnat did ne at tnat point eB;f?
COURT:
Wnat was tne question?
MR KUNY:
COURT:
I
did not •••
Wnotner tne witnese wae told (interrupted)
Wae not told in tne morning, wnat?
MR KUNY:
Not in tne morning but ne wae told in tne afternoon
when Captain Ooetnuizen returned.
Tnat wnat?
COURT:
MR
(l(
Well wnat was going to happen to nim in terms of
KUNY:
Section "22.
in tne
Wnat (interrupted)
Wnat did Captain Ooetnuizen SB;f wnen ne returned
afte~oon?
--- He said he nad been waiting for two yeare
to get me and ne said I nad better start telling nim about &
person calied Roger Vaaltyn.
COURT:
MR
About a person wno?
KUNY:
A person called
Roger Vaaltyn.
Yee? --- At tnat time I could not remember any
pereon called Roger Vaaltyn.
Did no eB;f anytning el.o to you conoern1ng tne period of
(20
your detent10n or wnat bie intent10n wae in bolding you at tbat
point in time? --- Wnen I eaid I d1d not recall tnis person
Roger Vaal tyn be eaid to me tnat I would not co-operate I
would see tbe bad eide of tna Security Police.
Did be explain wbat tnat meant? --- Tben be said that be
was not botbered if I would not co-operate tnen becauee ne
would ignore me for two weeks and he would nold me under Section
6 of tne Terroriem Act.
Now ne aeked you epecifically about Roger Vaaltyn and you
eB;f you anewered tnat you could not remember anytn1ng.
{JO
1a correct.
Wbat did ne want "to know about Vaaltyn?
Tnat
Did be tell you?
/1 •..
369
___ I
G.J .E.G. Berger.
am not completely sure whether it was at that stage or
later on in ths evening because he interrogated me l a ter on in
the evening but what emerged was that this Vaaltyn was a Black
person from Grahamstown who had been in Botswana and (intsrrupted)
COURT:
And what?
I am sorry? --- And who had been in Bots-
wana.
I4R
!CUNY:
Yes~
--- It emerged that Captain Oosthu1zen thought
that I was reSPonsible for this person leaving the country and
he said to me I am - he said oh, you did not know we had
(10
arrested him, did you, and he further said that Keith Richer
had visited this Vaaltyn, that he had visited thi s Vaaltyn in
the camp.
Those were his words.
Now did you remember anything about Vaaltyn at that stage?
As I have indicated I cannot remember exactly when it was
that he gave deta11s on wny he was ask1ng me about Roger Vaaltyn,
whether it was in the afternoon or at the start of the evening
sess10D, but sa I have sa1d when he first asked me I could not
reoall Vaal tyn •
•
Yes,
I remembered by that evening.
Now you have spoken about afternoon seSSion, the
(20
evening session, were there many sessions of interrogation? --There was One on the 14ond83 evening, there was one on the Tuesd83
IVlning, tn.n there were 8880rted se8s10Ds duri ng the week snd
one again on the Sund83 and again dur1ng the f ollowing week
(1ndistinot).
Well we will come to them chronolog1c s lly, but at this po int
of time I4r Berger are you able to remember clearly , precisely
what was said at which session and at what time an d on wha t
occasion in chronological ssquence? --- I think I can remembe·r
most, yes.
Yes.
(30
Did much elae happen that afternoon? --- Well after
! telling •••
l'f
370
G.J. E.G. Berger.
telling me that be would keep me under Section 6 until I
co-operated, be ea1d he kept a pereon for eight months under
Section 6.
Until? --- Until tbat person bad co-o perat ed , in hie
terms, co-operated.
Did the interroga tion continue tbat afternoon or did it
come to an end tben? --- No, it wae very brief.
I
WaS
tben
taken away from the Secur1ty Police offices.
Wbereto? --- I was taken to Alexandria police et at1on.
Now at tbat - more or less wbat time would you bave got
Can you remember?
the re?
(lC
Yes, approximately 5.30.
n1d you have a watcb w1tb you? --- I bad a watcb but I bad
to band it
~n
at
Al.xandr1~
police station.
Had you slept at all during tbat day?
No.
And you bad bad about two bours sleep tbe n1g bt be f ore ? - Tbat is correct.
~bat
bappened wben you arrived at Alexandr1a? - - Dur1ng
the day a colleague of mine at Rhodes bad sent a bible for me.
COURT:
1~
Is tbat noW at Alexandria? --- At Alexan ••• be bad s ent
to Grabamstown .to the Secur1ty Police and it was brougbt
(20
with me to Alexandria, bowever, I was refused aCCBSS to it.
To the . bible? - - Yes, by Sergeant Nevel1ng.
MR
KUNY:
Were you put into a cell? --- Yes, I was put into a
pol1ce cell.
Did you bave anytb1ng a t all with yo u apart from the clotbes
you were wearing? --- No, not at tbat stage.
No reading material?
COURT:
MR
KUNY:
No.
No wbat?
Reading material. --- Tbe following day clotbes we re
sent t .b rougb to me (voice drops - inaudible).
(30
.
COURT:
Cannot hear you? - - Tbs followi ng day, tbe Tuesday,
I late ...
I~
371
G.J.E . G. Berger.
late afternoon, I received clothes somebody nad given the
Security Folice to pass on to me.
Now having arrived at Alexandria were you given
MR KUNY:
something to eat? --- Yes, I was given supper that evening at
Alexandria,
Mond~
evening.
did you see Captain Oosthuizsn again that evening? ---
~ow
. Yes, he arrived again that evening - he arrived at Alexandria
pol1ce etation.
Alone or accompanied by anyone? --- He was with one otner
Security polioaman, I do not remember exactly who it wae.
(1
And would you tall hie worship now what nappaned whsn
Captain Oosthuizen arrived?
What - and the events? --- Well
when he arrived he aeked me if I had remembared who Vaaltyn
wae and after some intsrrogation about Vaaltyn he said that if
was not responsible for getting Vaaltyn out of the country
I
I had better toll him who was.
Did you know anything at all about how Roger Vaaltyn got
out?
No , I did not.
Did you tall thie to Captain Ooethuizen? --- Yes,
I
told
•
him that I was not aware of how Vaaltyn had left the country.
(~
Did he aooapt that answer from you? --- He said he would
come back to questioning me about Vaaltyn, but he left it for
that time being.
COURT:
Left it (interrupted) --- Yes.
MR KUNY:
Now did he ask you anything else at that stage?
He then asked me why I had encouraged another stUdent at Rhodes,
?
called Zubada Jaffer.
Encouraged Zubada (interrupted)
COURT:
Repeat that name again? --- Jubada -
MR KUNY:
D-a.
Z-u-b-e-i?
~--
,
Jaffer
Z-u-b-e-i-d-a~
D-a.
~
(30
J-a-f-f-e-r.
ICourt •••
I
Ib
372
G.J. E.G. B\lrger.
Why you had encouraged another student at Rhodes,
COURT:
Zubeida Jaffer? --- That is correct, to set up a diecussion
group in Port Elizabeth.
Had you? --- No, this was the fir.t I bad beard of
MR !CUNY:
a discussion group in Port Elizabetb involving Zubeida Jaffer.
Y~e,
oarry on? --- He furtber asked me wby I had instigatsd
Cbris Watson to set up a diecussion group · in East London.
Did ns
ex~lain
why be was concerned about tness disoussion
groups? --- He said tnat hie aim was not to put me in jail but
to etamp out tbe organieing in tbe Eastern Cape.
COURT:
(10
To stamp out? --- To stamp out tbe organising in tbe
Eastern Cape.
MR !CUNY:
Wbat organising.was he referring to?
I am not
completely eur., I preeume be was talking about tne discussion
groupewhic~ he alleged I bad instigated.
COURT:
You took it be was referring to tne di.cussion groups?
--- Tbat is correct, and I reacted against bis allegations
that I bad instigated Cbris Watson because he was, as I exor
perienced it, implying that I was a kingpin,_ an arch manipu-
•
lator.
What did you say? --- It was, as I was experiencing (interruptsd)
MR KUN!:
He was implying, he was implying? --- He was im-
plying tbat I was a kingpin figure and an arcb manipulator.
Did hs ask you anything else about discussion groups?
Sunday nigbt disoussion groups for example? --- Ye., he aaksd
me to tell him about a Sunday night di.oue.ion group involving
?
Allan Vin and James Wrigbt.
Wbat did be want to know about tbose diecussion
groups~
(30
He wanted to know wbat the aim of tbe discussion groups was,
and questions 11ke wno· bad been present, wbat bad been discussed.
/Did •••
I
I
G.J. E.G. Berger.
Did you ansWer nis questions? --- Yes, 1 ... 1 •.•
COURT:
MR KUNY:
Pardon? --- I replied to wnat ne was asking ms.
Did ne appear satisfied witn your answers? --- No, ne
did not appear satisfied, ne said tnat - he used the analogy of
a ladder and he said I had a full ladder to climb and I had not
atarted climbing it yet.
What did you underatand him to maan by ' thia analogy of a
ladder? --- Well I could eea
~e
had a preconceived idea of me.
In what aenae? --- In the aenae of regarding me as being
involved and intending things much more serious.
COURT:
(10
You were involved and? --- I waa involved in things
and had intended - my aim a had been much more aerioua.
MR KUNY:
Than? --- Than I
~ad
regarded them.
Row did the ladder tnen come into this? --- Tne ladder I
think signified what nis preconceptions of me were and the
implication was I had to fulfill the as preconceptions of hia.
OOURT:
Sorry, I have missed that
now again.
The ladder
signified you tnink? --- Signified his preconcsptions of me and
the implication was that I would have to climb that preconceived
ladder in order to satisfy nim.
I can add aometning, ne
(20
said tnat the purpose of Section 6 of tne Terrorism Act was to
obtain a satisfactory statement and this made me worried beoause I was not sure wbat exactly would satisfy him, because of
his preconceived ideaa that ne seemed to have.
MR KUHY:
Did he allude to the ladder repeatedly thereafter,
or on other occasions? --- Almost every interrogation he used
this laddar and described tne progress I was making on it.
So at this point of time what did you understand him to be
saying to you? --- At this point in time?
Yes, this is now on the Monday evening at Alexandria
When he gave you the analogy of the ladder? --- Well at this
/point •••
(30
374
G.J.E.G. Berger.
point in time - or at that point in time I thought that he
thought I had had more a ••• ver,r
serious and specific long
term purposes (interrupted)
COURT:
I am sorry? --- Very serious and specific long term
purposes in the discussion groups.
MR KUNY:
And he put this, or did he put this to you? --- Yes,
but he did not provide an answer at that stage, on the Monday
ni g ht.
Did you provide him wi th the an s wers that he soug ht from
( lC
you?
l"Iell on the Monday night I told him that I did not have
any long term aima, any specific goala from the g roup.
What was his response?
£OURT:
You had no long term? --- Long term aims or goals.
Or? --- Goals.
Or goals? --- In the diacuasion groupa that I had been
involved in.
me the same
I think I ahould add in here that he alao asked
nig~t
about a further di s cusaion group I ha d been
i nvolved in in Grahamstown, in June 1980.
MR KUNY:
What diecussion group wa a that? --- It was a back-
•
ground, it was a Bet of three seminars.
COURT:
(20
A Bet of wbat? --- A set of three semina ra, which were
a backg round to a conference on resistance in South Africa.
MR KUNY:
Where was that conference to be held? --- It wa s to
be held in Maritzburg dUring the June/ July vacation, univeTsity
vacation.
198o? --- 1980, that is correct.
Under whoae auapices? --- NUSAS, the National Union (noiae
in microphone - inaudible).
So you say these discussion groups were a background to .
that and he queationed you about it? --- Tha t is correct, yes.( 30
Right. . Did you answer his questions about those
,
/ discussion •••
375
G.J. E.G. Berger.
discussion groupe? --- Yea, that 1s correct.
I told him what
we had discuesed, who had been present and what my aims were
which was that these were background seminara.
While you were talking to him wae he writing anything down?
110, he did not write anything down during the interrogation.
Was he alone with you or in the pressnce of anyone else?
-r-
There was another Security policeman with him.
remember who it
I
cannot
~aB.
What elee happened that n1ght? --- This is the Monday night?
Yes.
He said to me at some stage that he knsw about
literature at Lindy Harris'
COURT:
At who Se house?
Lindy?
(10
house.
The house of Lindy Harris.
Harris.
Harris.
MR
And? --- And I said that it was my literature and we
KuNY:
later went to collect it that night.
That night? --- That is correct.
If I can add something
hore, at the time of leaving Alexandria police station I did not
know that We were going to collect the literature •
•
Were you told ... here you Were gOing? --- No.
I thought
(20
that it m1ght be to take me to a emaller cell because earlier
in the eVening •••
COURT:
Beoause what? --- Because earlier in the evening
Oaptain Oosthuizen had told me he would leave me to rot.
Would leave you to? --- To rot.
To rot?
MR KUNY:
Yes. --- That is correot, 1n a smaller cell because
the police cell was too b1g.
Now you went to Lindy Harr1s' house Where you
ture had been left? --- That is correct.
- the litera-
We collected the
literature and went to the Security Police offices.
/What •••
(30
') 0
G.J . E. G. Berge r.
376
What time of the night was this now?
I think it " a s
probably about 11.00 o'olock, 11.00 p.m.
What happened at the Security Police office s? --- Captain
Oosthuizsn told me I had to make a list of all my literature
and make a further list deta iling the origin or the sources
where I had obtained it, that is each item.
Did you make a list? --- That is correct, I made a list,
I started making it and Captain Oosthuizen then left, le a ving
two other security police behind.
CQURT:
Hs what? --- He then departs d , leaving two other
security polioe with me.
(10
Howevsr, before he left he s a id to
tb.om IIhy moenie slaap niB II so I knew then that I was not gOing
to be allowed to sleep that night.
MR KUNY:
No" he left and you made a liat? --- That is correc t,
till about 3'.00 a.m. I thin)c.
And then? --- Then I was taken back to Alexandria police
station by two different security police, differe nt to the two
who had been thsre with me.
COURT:
•
You were taken to the Alexandria police station? --- By
( 20
two different Seourity police, different to the two who had been
with me while I was writing ths list.
MR KUNY:
Physioally how were you that night'?
elept now you said.
You had not
Did anything at all happen to you?
I was very tired but I was too scared to drop off to sleep.
Well
I
remained awake and When we got to Alexandria police atation ons of
the Sscurity policemsn sat with ms.
Hs did not interrogate ms.
Was a doctor brought to examine you the following morning?
That ie oorrect.
For what reason? --- DUring ths night from over tirednes o I
had a bit of diarrhoea and t he Seourity Police then with me
had arranged for a doctor to coms.
( 30
If I can sdd somsthing hsre,
/ That •••
J. I
G.J.E.G. Berger.
that is all that took place eix months ago and I did eventually
?
end up working in a cell.
COURT:
You had? --- I did eventually end up working in a
smaller cell and so I cannot remember exactly whetner it was
tile Tueeday morning or perllaps the Wedneeday morning when the
doctor w,a s brought to eee me.
Are you not eure whetner it is Tuesday, or Wednesd'!Y morning
tne doctor ••• ? --- I think it was, I am pretty eure it was the
Tueeday, but I cannot swear to that.
MR !CUNY:
Did the doctor examine you and did you eay anything (10
to him? --- No, the doctor said what is wrong with you and I
told him I had diarrnoea from over tirednees and I said this
usually happened to me when. got OVer tired and I told nim I
tnought it would go away as eoon as I was allowed to sleep, well
as Boon as I got to sleep, got (noise in micropnone - inaudible).
Alright.
Now ••• --- As a result of what I had told the
dootor, he did not bother to examine me nor did he prescribe
anything.
On t ne Tueeday morning what happened? ---Sometime fairly
•
early on tne Tuesday morning Colonel Erasmus, I think he ie
(20
head of the Security Police in the Eastern Cape, he arrived with
Captain Ooethuizen, who ehouted to me to stand up, when he - as
"
11. came into the office.
Yes? --- And he thIn said, h. shouted at me, saying why
haven't you wasned, and he said I was not at university any
longer.
Yes? --- I was too scsred to tell him that the reason why
I had not washed was because I
had not been given any opportu-
nity, that I had been up the whole night.
. (30
Yes? --- He then started saying to me that he knew my type,
then eaid he 'had interrbgated a person called Harris.
/ Court •••
378
COURT:
I
G.J .E.G. Berger.
He had? --- He had interrogated a peraon called Harris
and he said he assumed I also came from Houghton in Johannesburg.
MR !CUNY:
What is Houghton in Johannesburg? --- It is a fairly
eUte euburb in Johannesburg.
What was the point of the statement as far as you could
see? --- Well I know that Harris was a person who was involved
iQ violence.
COURT:
In?
Violence, and was hanged in the early 1960's,
and I wae worried beoause he oeemed to be equating me.
MR KIlNY:
Seemed to be?
Equating me.
(10
Yee. --- With Harris.
Did he say anything else to you? --- Yea, he aa id that my
parente had not pnoned to enquire about me and that nobody
really cared about the fact that I was in detention.
Did you' know whether this wae correct or not? --- I knew it
was incorrect because Captain Oosthuizen had told me, I think the
previoua evening, that my parents had phoned him.
Now what happened thereafter? --- Colonel Erasmus then left
and ao did Captain Ooethuizen, but I was instructed before
•
Captain Ooethuizen left that I should write on - write note •• (20
I am not sure what hie actual wording was, but it amounted to
writing notea.
On? --- On the diacusaion groups I have been involved in
and on a number of meetinga I had had with various people and
also on my political history, he said etarting rig ht from the
very beginning.
Vlsre you furniehed with writing materials? - - Yes, I began
to write.
He gave me paper and a pen.
I began to write once
they had left.
Where were you when you were writing? --- Some of what I ( 30
wrote I was in the offic'es of the Alexandria police station an d
! some •••
-.'
319
G.J. E.G. Berger.
some (interrupted)
COURT:
I
cannot hear you, sometime? --- Soms of what I wrote
was in the offices of the Alexandria police station and I think
most was in my polics csll where I had bsen allowed to go to
wash.
MR KUJrY:
For how long d1d you continue writing? --- I wrote
(indistinct) that evening when Captain 00sthu1zen arrived again
with Lieutenant Maislsr - I think that is his name.
COURT:
Lieutenant? --- Maisler.
Maisler.
IIIR KUNY:
(10
We we are now in to Tuesday, from the morning until
the evening.
Had you slept at all since the t1me of your de-
tent10n on the Monday morning? --- No, not at all.
And d1d you complete wr1ting about your history, (indist1nct)
private and 'about the group that you were part of? --- I definitely completed notes on the groups and on the meeting, but I am not
sure if I finished the notes on my political history at that
stage.
May have been on the Wednesday morning that I continued
with it •
•
?Iell what happened to interrupt your writing? --- Well
(20
there was an interrogation seBsion the whole of Wednesday night.
You mean the Tuesday night. --- The Tuesday night, sorry.
"
Had you been given food at lunchtime and in the evening?
Yes t I have received regular meals.
Regular meals, and who interrogated you then on Tuesday
night? --- Well Captain Oosthuizen did most of the interrogation
and Lieutenant Maisler a littls bit.
COURT:
Just one momsnt, you Bay Captain OOBthuizen intsrro-
gated you and Lieutenant? --- Maisler interrogated me to a lesser
()O
extent.
MR KUNY:
Did hs have the notes that you had written? --- Yes,
/he ...
.JtiO
" \(
G.J.E.G. Berger.
he took the notes that I had written.
COURT:
MR KUNY:
I. that Captain Ooethuizen? --- That is correct.
Did he read them? --- I cannot recall if he read
them during the interrogation or not, certainly he only got
them when the in • . • at the beginning of the interrogation seeeion,
when he arrived at Alexandria Police Station.
Did he make any reference to these notes that you can recall? --- I do not think at that etage he referred to the notes.
And now without going into details because you eay this
took place through the night, what sort of things was he inter-(l(
rogating you about and what was said in the course of this
interrogation, broadly?
me that he had detained
COURT:
Well he first etarted off by telling
ano~her
Ismail Kola? --- Kola.
student called Ismail Kola.
He seemed quite amused when
he said that this Kola had remarked that interrogation wae tile
moet traumatic experience of hie life.
MR KUNY:
Did he mention anybody elee? --- At a later stage in
tne evening he also mentioned anotner Rnodes student,
80
African called Gilbert Thomson, whom he said would throw fits
•
and fallon the floor.
COURT:
( 20
What is tile name of tile African student? --- Gilbert
Thomeon.
Who what? --- Gilbert Tilomson.
What did you eay? --- He said that Thomson would throw a
fit and fallon the floor whenever Captain Oosthuizen came near
Ilim during interrogation sessions with this Thomson.
MR KUNY:
Did he mention any other people? --- I have (in-
distinct) those two together because his mention of these gave
me a ... well made me fairly nervous, fairly afraid of
nim.
then mentioned other people in a different context.
Now what was the purpb.e of hi. mentioning the.e other
!people •••
He
(30
I
381
G.J.E.G. Berger.
people? --- I do not think I quite realised this at the time
but on reflection it seems that he mentioned these other people
that I will now (indistinct), he mentioned them in order to
make me feel bad.
What way? --- At the outset, that was being caused by the
student detention
COURT:
in Grahamstown.
Upset, being caused?
Being caused by the detention
of students in Grahamstown •
•
MR KUNY:
How was it to make you feel bad? --- Well first of
all he told me that my girlfriend, Jean Phunnett, was receiving(l
Valium tablets from her friend called Ingrid Stewart.
How was this related to you?
Well the implic a tion was
that I was indireotly responeible for this upset.
He further
mentioned other people.
Other'people who or what? --- He asked me if
knew Aurat van
H8erd~nt8
~ ~nta
parents before the detention.
Wbo is Auret van Hearden? --- He was a friend of mine t be
was in the army at that time, but Captain Oosthuizsn led me to
believe he was detained and being interrogated in Johannesburg •
•
I think the implication was that as a result of the detention (20
the parents Were upset and trying to get in touch with each other.
Did he , mention anyone else?
To try and make you fee bad?
Yee, he mentionod Christopher Wateon and he said that if I
told him everything the whole matter would be over before ' the
end of the year and Watson and the other students would be able
to write their exams.
He also mentioned another person whom
he said wae detained, s lecturer at Rhodes called Sydney Zotwana.
COURT:
Sydney? --- Zotwana.
Sydney Zotwana? --- Zotwana.
previous evening that I had made a
I bad mentioned to him the
Xerox
of a pamphlet.
Made a Xerox? --- Of a pamphlet.
/You •..
(jO
382
You mean a photocopy?
G.J. E.G. Berger.
Photocopy, that i s correct, which
I had given Zotwana and he said that Zotwana's wife was
traipsing to the Security Police offices.
(Indistinct). --- Traipsing, with food and clothes.
I
think again the implication was that I was again responsible
here.
Did you subsequently aacartain whether this was true
lIIR !CUNY:
that Zotwana had been detained?
Did you hear? --- Yes, I do
not know for definite but I do not believe he was.
Captain
Oosthuizen also mentioned to me about somebody's sick
(10
mother who had flown up from Cape Town because of the detention
and he said to ma, he asked me if that waa all for the cause.
What cause was he referring to? --- I preswme he meant
was this justified in terms of politics, then I replied no, this
was · not part ot the cause, as he put it.
COURT:
You Bay you preawme he meant? --- Presumed he meant
was this justified in terms of politics and what I was hoping
to achieve.
lIIR KUNY:
You replied? --- I replied no, it was not part of
the • cauae, in response to what he had - how he had put it.
( 20
Now did this interrogation proceed for a long time, a short
time, how long did it go on? --- I think it began at about
7.00 o'clock and went right on till sunrise.
COURT:
lIIR !CUNY:
Until?
Till dawn.
And did you sleep at all that night ? --- No, not at
all.
Obviously we cannot now go into the details of what took
place throughout the night, but broadly s peaking what was it
that Captain Oosthuizen wanted to know from you in
interrogat~on
(JO
that night? --- Well that night he started accusing me of setting
up cells, A.N.C. cella, ' and he said that an A.N.C. cell had al so
/been •.•
,
G.J.E.G. Berger.
383
been discovered in Pietermaritzburg.
What was your reaction to this accusation? --- Wsll I
dsnied that the discussions which I had been involved in Were
in any way cells or had any A.N.C. aims or objectives.
Did he accept the denials from you? --- No, not at all.
Sorry, you say you dsnied that they Were A.N.C. cells
COURT:
or A.N.C.?
MR KUNY:
COURT:
Or
ha~
any A.N.C. aims or objectives. --- Correct.
Sorry, your question was?
MR KUNY:
Did he accept your denials? --- No, not at all.
Did anything happen later that evening? --- Yes.
(10
At - I
am not Bure of the exact time because I did not have a watch,
but I think it was paat midnight, ne told m. to strip off my
olothes and atand in front of a draughty open window.
Did you do aD? - - Yes, I did.
When I - I got as far as
- I took off my jersey and my shoes aDd Bocko.
I
em not sure
about my shirt, but he said that that was enougn.
COURT:
You took off what do you eay? --- I took off my shoBe
and sooks and my jersey •
•
MR KUNY:
And he said tnat was enough? --- Yes, he said that
(20
waa - I oannot rscall exactly whether I took off my ehirt or
not.
,
I do not think I did.
I think he aaid it was enough by
the time I had got to my shirt.
And then did you stand in front of tne window? ---Yes, tnat
is correct.
Wnat sort of a night was tnis? --- It was quite a cold
night, it was the beginning of a very cold spell in August, in, at
- ja, at that time of year.
What was your phyaioal reaotion at this stage When you were
standing in front of the window? --- Well I "as very fatigued (30
and also unde"r emotionai strain and I was shaking a lot.
/Did •••
384
G. J. E. G. Berger.
Did he say anything to you? --- Yes, a t first he said well he re peated what he had eaid a little bit beforehand , he
repeated his, he remarked to the Security po liceman with him.
He said that I would not epeak and he said nek dink ons moet
I
equipnsnt' g aaa naal ll , and this he repeated ""hile I was s t anding
up.
I
Ie
i
Did you know what he meant by t hi s? --- Well I aaaumed
aqui pment meant aome kind of torture equipment .
Did they ever fetch any equipment? --- No.
(10
And did he aay anytning elae to you while you Were standing
in front of the open window? --- He ahouted at me, say ing I waa
a bloody coward.
A
bloody coward.
Why? --.,. Bscause ne sai!!, and he had been building up to
this earlier
00
in the evening, he said he would detain Jean
Phunnett,
mY
COURT:
You aay he said
girlfriend.
he had been building up to it? ---
He nad been building up to this.
MR !CUNY:
No , he did not say he said that, thia is what the
witness says.
COUflT:
He said he will detain? --- Earlier in the evening he ( 20
had said he would detain my girlfriend and he Baid that unle sa I
told him everything.
,
Thia waa earlier tne evening? --- This was earlier in the
evening, ye s .
'.
At thia stage when I waa standing up , he said
I waa a bloody coward becauae I waa gOing to let ner be detained.
MR KUNY :
How did that make you a coward? --- I preaume from
hia point of view ne thought I was not brave enough to a ••• I waa
not brave enough to incriminate myself and let my girlfriend go
free , stay free.
Yes.
(30
Anything elae aa id to you at thia etage? --- He aaked
me if I thought I waa a ' hero, and then he pioked up a oane.
/ wers •••
There
G.J. E.G. Berger.
385
were several canes leaning against a blood spattered section of
the wall.
Yes? --- He stalked around me, brandishing the cane and
glaring into my face and demanding who recruited you repeatedly.
Did he UBe the cane at all on you? --- No , he did not.
Did he give any inetructions to Maisler, Lieutenant Mais1er?
Vle11 after BomB time, I
am
not sure exactly how long, I
think perhaps half an hour of standing, he said I could eit down
again and put on my jersey once more, and then he said to me
(10
that he was eurprised at my attitude beoauee he said that
Whites would usuallY protect their· womenfolk, their womenfolk,
and he further said that he knew what women were like.
that they would not testify against their menfolk.
He said
He said to
me he would detain Jean Phunnett and Janet Shapiro.
COURT:
(Inaistinct). --- Jean Phunnett, my girlfriend.
Joe Shapiro? --- Janet.
MR KUNY:
COURT :
Janet. --- Janet Shapiro.
Janet Shapiro. --- And he eaid that they would be held
in detention ae witnesses until the court case which he said
• be in 1981 , and he further said that they would be
would
(20
eentenced if they refused to testify and this meant I would not
see them for over a year.
•
He further said to me he did not
believe I love Jean Phunnett .
MR KUNY:
Did he have a photograph of her? --- Earlier, on ·the
Tuesday evening, he had brought me some clothes from Grahamstown.
This waB right at the very start of the interrogation Bession
and he had - there had been a photograph of Jean Phunnett with
the clotheB and he had said to me do you want to Bee Jean.
expressed my eagerness.
I
He held up the photograph and then
quickly put it back in his pocket.
I think that waB the start(JO
of him seeing that Bhe meant a great deal to me.
IYee, .•
I
386
Yes.
G.J. E.G. Berger.
Your worship I do not know whetner this is an
appropriate stage to adjourn, it is 3.55.
COURT:
Yes, I tnink it is perhaps a sUitable stage .
go back in tne meantime.
You can go back in tne meantime .
case is postponed until tomorrow, the 24th.
CASE POSTPONED UNTIL 24 . 2.1981.
(§ND OF BELT 62).
.-
•
•
You can
Tne
Collection Number: A01901
SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials Court
Records 1958· 1978
PUBLISHER:
-"
PubJ/$her· Historical Papers. Uni.... rsity of the Witwate ... ,..nd
locobotl • Johann•• burg
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