NATIONAL LIFE STORIES
CITY LIVES
Sir Roger Gibbs
Interviewed by Cathy Courtney
C409/086
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THE NATIONAL LIFE STORY COLLECTION
NTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET
Title Page
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Ref. No.: C409/86
Playback No.: F3119-F3127;
F5223-F5226; F9681-F9683;
F12013-F12016
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Collection title: City Lives
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Interviewee’s surname: Gibbs
Title: Sir
Interviewee’s forenames: Roger
Date of birth: 13th October 1934
Sex: Male
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Date(s) of recording:
21.01.1992; 04.11.1992; 03.02.1993; 20.04.1993; 15.11.1995; 19.04.2001; 11.10.2002
Location of interview: Interviewee’s home and British Library
Name of interviewer: Cathy Courtney
Type of recorder: Marantz
Total no. of tapes: 20 (interview incomplete)
Type of tape:
Mono or stereo:
Speed:
Noise reduction:
Original or copy:
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Additional material:
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Copyright/Clearance: © British Library
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Interviewer’s comments: Re Tapes 17-20 (F12013-F12016). I had an arrangement to
go for two hours and in fact recorded for four hours. I ran out of tape at the end while
he was telling me a particularly interesting story about Lord Lucan. The only thing I
could do was carry on and use the tiny bits at the ends of Side B of Tapes 17 and 18
(F12013 and F12014); i.e. to knot the account together, the listener would have to hear
the end of Tape 20 side B (F10016B), followed by the end of Tape 17 side B (F12013B)
and the end of Tape 18 side B (F12014B). It was too good to miss. (Both sections
marked by an asterisk)
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Sir Roger Gibbs Page 1
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
Tape 1 [F3119] Side A (part 1)
Interview with Roger Gibbs at his home on January the 21st 1992.
.....office at the Wellcome Trust? [break in recording] .....begin at the beginning. Could you
tell me where and when you were born?
I was born on the 13th of October 1934, in Hertfordshire.
And were you the eldest child?
No, I was number four, the fourth son, which was a slight disappointment to the parents, and
the fourth of six.
And the other two were also boys?
They were twins, and the youngest was a daughter luckily.
Right. So was she the golden child?
I would think so probably; she is certainly now my parents have died, she is certainly the
focal point of the family.
Oh really.
But that always happens.
Simply because she’s the girl?
That's right.
And when you say it was a disappointment to your parents that you were a boy, I mean were
you very conscious of that, and are you saying that rather seriously?
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 2
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
No no no, I'm saying it rather frivolously.
And, I wondered if we could look a bit at your family history. I seem to remember that your
great-grandfather was fairly prominent in the City.
Yes, he was, like the chairmen of quite a number of merchant banks, he was Governor of the
Bank of England for two years, I think from 1878 to 1880, but it went on a sort of rota basis
in those days.
And do you know anything about his time as Governor?
I really don't know anything about his time as Governor, but it was extremely uneventful
compared to the days of Lord Richardson and Mr Leigh-Pemberton. Very quiet.
And he had a family bank or what was it?
A family bank that was founded in 1808, Anthony Gibbs & Sons which, they were really
more merchant adventurers as opposed to bankers, and they had some very good times and
some very bad times. I mean people like Barings have done the same, but Barings flourishes
in the 1990s and Anthony Gibbs in actual fact was taken over by the Hong Kong Bank in
1979.
Oh so it kept going as late as that. And did you have any involvement with it?
No, they never offered me a job. That was probably one of their better decisions!
And did any of your brothers work for them?
Yes, two of my brothers. My eldest brother David, and my third brother Julian, they were
both in Anthony Gibbs. But also there were first cousins, and there were quite a few of the
family in it, so there really wasn't room for many more when my turn came.
And were you conscious of the bank as a child, was it part of your childhood?
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 3
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
Oh very much. My father was, he was eventually Chairman of Anthony Gibbs but he was
also Chairman of the Australia & New Zealand Bank from, I think 1951 to 1967, that sort of
time. So he was a distinguished banker.
And as a child were you taken to the bank?
Oh certainly, yes, we were either taken to the bank in the City, not very often but
occasionally, I think when my father was feeling brave enough, or to Girl Guide
headquarters, because my mother was, she ran the overseas side of the Girl Guides. So it was
either Buckingham Palace Road or Bishopsgate.
And what are your memories of Bishopsgate as a child?
Extremely gloomy, dingy, everyone very much on their best behaviour; everyone very
friendly but pretty uninspiring.
So it didn't make you think, I must join this.
It didn’t, no. It never entered my head that I ever would.
And were you shown things like gold in the vaults and things like that?
Nothing very exciting happened at Anthony Gibbs, nothing like that at all, no.
And did you have an impression of the City at that time?
I think my impression of the City was, probably if I thought about it at all, I was a bit
bewildered by it all, it all seemed very big, very complicated, and something to be avoided.
And were any family stories passed down about your great-grandfather?
Well there were rhymes written about the Gibbs family and their trading, and one of them is
quite unrepeatable, but...
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 4
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
Is it really unrepeatable?
Yes. I can’t actually remember the detail of it, but...I would have to get hold of the book
about Anthony Gibbs which was published I think in the 1970s, which has it in full, and
various other anecdotes. But they were an extraordinarily respectable set-up, always
considered to be straight as a die, but I think pretty effective but not particularly imaginative.
Although, I mean things like the finance for the Great Western Railway, that was produced
by Anthony Gibbs, and I think it was my great-grandfather who was a particular friend of
Brunel, and there were those sort of connections.
So as a boy did you grow up knowing about Brunel as well as banking?
Not a lot. I think my much more intelligent elder brothers probably did, but I concentrated
more on sport.
And, what about your father’s father, was he any part of your life?
Well again he was chairman of the family bank, and he died when I was two or three so I
really didn’t know him.
And did you pick up any stories about the sort of character he was?
Oh I think he was a thoroughly steadfast, marvellous, affable character. Very much like my
father and his younger brother actually, my father’s younger brother, Humphrey Gibbs, who
was Governor of Rhodesia.
Governor...?
Of Rhodesia.
Oh right. Gosh, at what point?
He disagreed with Mr Ian Smith on most things, it was at that point.
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 5
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
And so was that part of your family discussions round the table? Was that very much a part
of...?
Oh very much so, because not only our great interest, and my Uncle Humphrey and Aunt
Molly and their family in Southern Rhodesia, but my mother was particularly interested in
Africa, and oh, it was a burning topic, in fact probably the most, I would think it was the most
frequent topic in family conversation.
And to somebody young that can often be a great turn-off, that the last thing you ever want to
hear about is Rhodesia, or did you get very drawn in?
Well, I think we met so many interesting people from Africa, and...no, it wasn’t a turn-off,
but we thought it went on a bit much at times.
And were the family views, would they all tend to agree or were there varying viewpoints
coming out from the different members of the family?
I think of the six of us, and my parents, we didn’t always agree; in fact we very often
disagreed, possibly not on major principles and things like that, but we always aired our
views and were encouraged to air our views on any subject as forcibly within reason as we
liked. And therefore debate was always very lively indeed, and never acrimonious, but
lively.
And can you sort of isolate what different people’s viewpoints would have been? Was it
consistent, or not?
I think some of us got quite entrenched from time to time, yes.
And which direction would you have been entrenched?
Well I was...I was certainly academically the most unsuccessful member of the family, in the
same bracket as my sister. The other four were distinctly above average. So I think one was
a little bit swamped.
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 6
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
So you mean you wouldn’t have voiced your opinion, or you might have been more liberal, or
what?
I probably wouldn’t at that stage of my life have voiced too many opinions on too many
things. I was much keener to get the conversation over with and get out on the tennis court.
And were you close to your sister as a child, was there an alliance between you?
All six of us in actual fact, our average age is now 58, and all six of us are still very close, we
always have been too, which has been...which has made life even more enjoyable.
And does that mean that now you’ve got a great affection between you that allows you to all
have very different views and it doesn't matter, or that you have roughly speaking similar
views?
I think we...we certainly have different views, and we're in different fields, and we've pursued
different avenues, but we come across, well our paths cross many times nowadays.
And, did you have any kind of particular alliance with your mother?
Yes, I think I was particularly close to both my parents, but I think...when I say I was
particularly close, I was, but I think so were the other five; we were a very close family.
We talked a little about your paternal grandfather but you obviously didn't know him very
much. What about his wife, did you know your grandmother?
Well only just, she died shortly after that. No, I think that, going back to my parents, that my
father was a very distinguished businessman and a person with a great sense of humour, and
was incredibly kind and thoughtful, but he was for the fairly steady pattern of life, whereas
my mother was more imaginative, and much more dashing, and had much more obvious
enthusiasm for everything, and everyone.
Do you know where they met?
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 7
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
I don’t know where they met no, but they got married when she was 21 and he was 24. But I
remember one thing to describe my mother best I think, is when the person who gave the
address at her memorial service, when there were an awful lot of people there, he said, ‘There
are always three words that will remind me of Helen Gibbs: “Do tell me”, and so often before
you had the chance, she told you.’ And it brought a sort of gasp of appreciation out of the
entire congregation of four or five hundred people, and the reason was that he had really hit
the nail on the head, because she was longing for you, whoever you were, and from whatever
walk of life, to know what she thought, but she was also fascinated to find out what you
thought.
Do you know much about how your father grew up?
I’m afraid I don’t, but my younger brother Christopher would be a great expert on that but I
don’t. But they lived in a large family home in Hertfordshire called Briggins, about five
miles from Ware, and that eventually became a hotel like so many of those houses.
So you would have gone to that as a very young child, and then it vanished from your life
really?
Yes, it was there, or thereabouts, for a long time, but I used to go there occasionally as a child
to visit my uncle Walter Aldenham, who was Chairman of the Westminster Bank for quite a
while, and his wife Beatrix. But it was a fairly sort of forbidding place. But my father was
one of six children. Walter Aldenham was the eldest, and Humphrey Gibbs was the youngest
brother, and my father was the second youngest child. And there were three sisters, Winifred
Ponsonby and then two spinsters, Barbara and Rosalind, and I think they were two of those
people who knew a lot of very nice young men, you know, in the sort of 1910 to 1920 period,
but unfortunately so few of them got through to the 1920 period, and they decided, you know,
they would go their own quiet ways and not get married.
Do you know what happened to them?
What happened to them, those aunts? Oh they did more good works in Hertfordshire than
you would believe possible.
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 8
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
So they had a private income of some kind?
They had...yes, a relatively small private income, and they were extremely undemanding too,
lived very frugally.
And was your impression that your father’s childhood had been quite frugal in a grand way,
or what?
There was nothing...it was never ever grand, and I would think it was relatively limited, yes.
I mean, did your grandparents’ home have staff?
Yes, they had...when I say it was limited, I'm talking relatively speaking. It was a very large
house, and they did have staff yes. I would guess they had three, four, five staff.
And was your father at Eton?
My father was at Eton, yes.
And had his father? Was there a great tradition of this?
Eton goes back a long way, yes; I don’t know how far, but a long way. I myself was at Eton
for three and a half years and then I got a free transfer to Millfield in Somerset, because it
was believed by the authorities at Eton, and I think also my parents, that I wasn’t making
much progress there, and I should have more individual tuition. I think the reason - well, I
always put forward the mitigating circumstances being that my voice didn’t break until I was
seventeen and three months, so perhaps I was rather a late developer, so I didn’t sort of
blossom as fast as some children.
That must have been a form of torture at that age, wasn’t it?
Well I think the most tortuous period was that I did have a good treble voice, not a brilliant
one but a good one, and an extremely reliable one, and therefore one was in demand in the
lower reaches of the choir at school, and when I got to the age of sixteen and I could still sing
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 9
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
treble pretty well one was in demand purely because of one's reliability. But it did become a
bit of an embarrassment eventually, and I retired from the choir at sixteen and a half. People
were very nice about it. I mean I think that I was very lucky at school, I was in a house
where the boys were kind and understanding and they didn’t, you know, sort of give one hell
because one’s voice never broke. But no, it...but it wasn't much fun when other people were
going off to interesting lectures or concerts or whatever it was, and I was going off to sing yet
again in the choir, or choir practice.
Did it isolate you though, were you a bit lonely?
No I wasn’t, because I was very keen on games, and one saw an awful lot of people through
that; I made some very good friends through that too.
And, could we now just talk a little bit about your mother’s family, do you know much about
them?
No, but they were...they’re called Leslie, and they were very eccentric, and rather musical,
and very interesting people. But I can’t say I have met a lot of them over the years, but my
mother was wonderful about them and would visit them all over the countryside, particularly
in her later years. But no, I mean you would find one was quite a talented composer, and
another would be doing scraperboard on the end of Brighton Pier.
What's scraperboard?
You know the stuff where you have a little scraping trowel, and you have a sort of black
sheet and you do scraperboard, and you know, it’s a form of art. But that particular chap
might have done anything on Brighton Pier, I mean you know, I think...they were a most
extraordinary family in that they had a lot of talented people as I say, but some who were
certainly not run-of-the-mill. But music I think was certainly one of the things in that family.
Do you know what her father had done?
Her father? I do know a bit about him. He was one of the most brilliant schoolboy athletes
of the latter part of the last century, C.F.H. Leslie, called Charles Leslie, and in one book
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 10
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
about schoolboy sport there was a short chapter apparently entitled, ‘The Great
Disappointment’, and the great disappointment was that Charles Leslie, he got three blues at
Oxford, he played cricket for England before he played for his county when he was nineteen,
and he was pretty successful playing cricket for England, his great claim to fame being he
made 166 by 3 o'clock on the first day playing for the MCC against New South Wales on the
first MCC tour of Australia, under a captain called Ivo Blyth, and that was in 1882. But he
was a marvellous athlete, but he never really went on to greater things, because he went into
his family firm, Leslie & Godwin who were insurance brokers, and he couldn’t afford to play
sport, and I think that that was a sadness to him, a great sadness.
Was that a City firm?
Yes.
So did your mother grow up in London?
She grew up in Hertfordshire, and she grew up in a little village called Hertingfordbury, a
house called Epcombs, which was, is on a little river called the Mimram, and that ran through
the garden. And it was only about, I suppose oh, three miles from where we lived; we lived
at the bottom of Essendon Hill, between Hertford and Hatfield, and so in the War we could
go over there by car. In actual fact we usually went by pony and trap, but there was just
enough petrol to go by car occasionally, and it was a wonderful place, and my grandmother
was a marvellous person.
What was she like?
She was extremely amusing, slightly irresponsible, and in her latter days when she was in her
middle eighties she used to play, I mean she always used to play games, like Chinese
chequers, and she would quite often say to us grandchildren, when playing her Chinese
chequers at the age of eighty-something, ‘Now isn’t that an interesting bird on that tree over
there,’ and as you were looking she was shifting the pieces around! She was absolutely
amazing. Could never understand television, and a cousin of ours became a newscaster, a
chap called Corbet Woodall, and I do remember when Corbet was doing the Six O'Clock
News on the BBC on the television, and she hadn’t had television for long, it had only really
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 11
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
just come into her world, and she would always say to him after the news, ‘Now come on
Corbet, come in for a drink tonight,’ you know, really thinking he was there. Rather sweet.
And, had she had a dramatic youth? It sounds as though she might have done.
I don’t think particularly, no. I think she was one of thirteen children, something like that.
And when you went there as a child, did she...was there any particular thing you did with
her?
No, she was very...no, I don't think so. There was a vine on the side of the house, and with
extremely sour grapes, but being children we very much enjoyed those grapes, so we used to
be shown up by my grandmother to the roof in some extremely hair-raising route, and that
was always a little bit of an expedition. We used to fish on the Mimram, and have very good
teas, she used to give us very good teas, lots of cream and jam, which wasn't actually in
abundance at that particular time.
And she had help presumably.
Yes, she had help, not that much but she had help. She had a wonderful parlour-maid, who
was with her for fifty or sixty years, and was a real friend.
And was your grandfather alive at this stage?
No, he died in 1921, and I think at the age of 59. But she lived till, certainly I should think
88, that sort of thing.
And she was financially secure, it wasn't a disaster in that sense?
She was financially relatively secure.
And so, over your aunts and uncles from various sides, presumably your mother had sisters
as well, and brothers?
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 12
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
My mother had a sister, Ruth, who married someone called Hubert Pilkington, and a brother
called Jack Leslie, who was Chairman of the Commercial Union, and various other things.
He was a very good gardener; he was an extraordinary chap, anything he did he did to the
ultimate, whether it was as a photographer, or being Chairman of the British Lily
Association, or whatever.
So, of your aunts and uncles on both sides, were some of them really quite important in your
childhood, or were they just fleeting visits?
I think...yes, I think they were all very important in my childhood, I think possibly with the
exception of Jack Leslie, who was a splendid man but he wasn’t particularly interested in
children. In fact I shouldn’t think he was interested in children.
And can you tell me what your own house was like? Did you stay in the same house all
through your childhood?
We rented a house called Holwell as I say at the bottom of Essendon Hill, which had I
suppose twelve, fifteen acres of sort of garden and sort of rough wilderness, and it had a
small pond and it had two tennis courts. It was an extremely nice set-up, and it still is; I
visited it actually about a year ago and it's still just as lovely as ever, right in the middle of
Hertfordshire. So we had a remarkably happy childhood there. But when war was declared
my parents felt that it was wrong for us six small children to be within three miles of Hatfield
and twenty miles of London, because Hatfield was bound to be one of the main targets, and a
great friend of my parents, someone called Maurice Beaufoy, Maurice and Sylvia Beaufoy,
had a lovely house on the River Dovey, near Machynlleth in north Wales, and we were
pushed off there in 1940 and didn't come back until late 1943, and at that stage I think it was
considered to be a bit safer. And anyway, that's where we were, and my mother was with us
for all the holidays, and we had a nanny who was with us in the term time there, and we very
seldom saw my father, he was fairly high up in the Ministry of Economic Warfare in London,
and he spent really the whole war in London doing various things. But our house was used, it
was quite sort of, not a huge house but it was a house where twenty old ladies from the East
End, they were evacuated there and they spent the War, well they spent from 1940 to 1943, or
1944, there, being looked after by two spinster cousins. And so the house was well used.
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 13
C409/086 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)
And have you any memory of the pattern of the days in the house before you were evacuated,
when it was first your home?
No, but I would think that it would very much revolve around gardening and tennis, I would
think.
But you obviously had a nanny at that stage.
Yes.
Would the sort of nursery life have been quite separate from the adult life, or wasn't it like
that?
No it wasn’t like that. We...well when I say it wasn’t like that, it was obviously separate
from the adult life for a part of the day, because the adult life wasn't there, but the moment
the adult life returned from the City of London, or my mother from around Hertfordshire
doing her Girl Guiding, or whatever it may have been...yes, they were marvellous parents; I
mean they were extremely interested in us and spent an enormous amount of time with us, so
it was... When they returned to the house, say at six or six-thirty, I mean you know, we were
very much involved until we went off to bed.
And at weekends would you all eat together?
Oh yes, certainly.
And would that have been quite relaxed, or was it fairly formal?
Well my mother liked to keep the conversation going, so...oh yes, it was very relaxed indeed,
but you weren't allowed to sort of lounge around, or slouch, or not get involved in the
conversation.
Would you actually dress for dinner, or not?
No. No no.
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And would there be somebody serving you dinner, or what would happen?
No, there wouldn’t. We...no, we always did the washing up in shifts and things through the
War, you know, it was...well I think I was about the youngest who did, because the others
were so young they would have broken all the plates, but we used to take it in turns.
And who cooked?
We had a cook, we had a cook, the redoubtable Mrs Peacock, quite a good cook, but a nice
person. But I think that was it, I think we had a cook and that was it.
And who would discipline you if you needed disciplining?
Oh my mother was very much in charge of keeping us on the rails, and my father was...well if
it was anything very serious my father would I think take a grip of the situation, but of
ordinary run-of-the-mill it would be my mother, definitely.
And what would count as something serious?
Oh I can't think what...anything... I mean I would think sort of usually idleness, I should
think bad reports from school, that sort of thing. My father would take an interest in that,
certainly take an interest in that.
So if you had rather a hard time at school, did that become something you dreaded, or wasn't
it that sort of...?
I enjoyed...what, the reports? Well I never had a good report. All my reports said basically
that he tries very hard, is a useful member of the community, but he's basically useless, you
know, I mean that’s what the reports always said, that you know, my results, I was always 17
out of 23 at best, you know, that was...you know, I was always struggling at school. And
when I say, I suppose that wasn't true from the age of sort of eight to eleven, but from then on
it was a real battle.
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And did it make you very miserable?
I don't think it did; I think I was very cheerful really. Probably I wasn’t quite aware of how
serious the situation was. No, I had a remarkably happy childhood, because I had a lot of
wonderful friends at school and an extremely happy family when I got home for the holidays,
so that helped enormously. But if those two things had not been there, I would have had a
terrible upbringing, but they were there.
[End of F3119 Side A]
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C409/086 Tape 1 Side B (part 2)
Tape 1 [F3119] Side B (part 2)
I think that I wasn’t particularly interested in the things that I was being taught; I don’t think I
was particularly well taught at times; I was certainly a very late developer; and I found that
my contemporaries were always finding it easier than I was. That doesn't really answer your
question, but I think the late developing side of it, and the lack of interest, and not being able
to concentrate, were sort of main factors.
But if you weren’t really gripped by everything like that, were you actually having a little
secret life going on inside you that was rather private?
I don’t think so, no. I was waiting for the next competition that I could take part in.
Sports competition?
Oh yes. Oh it certainly wouldn't have been anything else. I mean it couldn’t be something
like chess, although at Eton I did get to the semi-final of the chess competition when there
was a major flu epidemic, but it was only due to the flu epidemic that I got through the first
round.
So it sounds as though you must have been quite a mixture, because family life must have
given you a certain confidence in going out into the outside world, but equally, if you kept
trying and not doing very well, that must have knocked your confidence.
I certainly lacked confidence, and I think you know, when one got to the age of seventeen,
eighteen, and...well I remember one particular thing when I was nineteen, and I was stopped
by a policeman, and he just didn’t believe I was old enough to have a licence, and he couldn’t
have been nicer about it but that was the truth of it.
Which must have been quite demoralising.
Very demoralising. And I remember when I was not growing at all, and when I was
seventeen, well my seventeenth birthday I happen to know I was five foot five and a half, and
on my nineteenth birthday I was six foot three and a half, so that was a pretty tricky period.
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 17
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But I remember going to see one of the ace child specialists when I was fifteen, and he was a
man called Dr Gardner-Hill, a wonderful man, and the idea was I think to see whether I
should have hormone injections or whatever you did to children then to try and make them
grow, and he took one look at me and said, ‘Now Roger, you're twelve...’, and I was fifteen
and a half! And for someone as professional as that, I obviously looked about eight.
And do you think there's some sort of scar from that inside you now? Because it must have
been terrible for a child of that age, those sort of things, and you obviously remember it very
vividly.
I remember it very vividly, but I remember it with amusement and enjoyment as much as the
disappointment at the time. It was...people made it very easy for me, I suppose because I did
try.
And do you think it might have made you more sensitive to other people’s difficulties?
I am sure it has, I have no doubt about that.
So in a way it was quite a good thing.
I think so. And also that, you know, children, all children grow up at different speeds, and I
think to grow up very slowly in the very long run is probably quite an advantage. One
remembers, I mean some people at school who were so successful, and I don’t say they were
burnt out by the time the time they were twenty-five but they haven’t progressed very far
since.
And how did you get on with your older brothers? Were they protective to you, or...?
Very protective, yup, very protective. No, I think that’s true, very protective.
Right. And can we just go through the schools you went to. How old were you when you first
went to school?
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I first went away to school to Maidwell Hall in Northamptonshire, which was a school of
seventy-two children, seventy-two boys, and I believe even now it’s seventy-two boys, and it
flourishes now as it did in those days. But to go away to school in 1943 was, it was quite a
bumpy time to go away from home for the first time.
So had you been to a day school before that?
In Wales I went to a day school, which in actual fact was a girls’ finishing school from
Queen's Gate in London called the Cygnets, and it was transferred in the War to Machynlleth
and they decided to have boys and girls that were younger. And my brother Julian and I went
there, I think my brother Christopher was too young but Julian and I were there, and Julian
was a Thrush and I was a Robin, and I can tell you we were absolutely terrified of these
seventeen-year-old Cygnets. But that was the first school I went to – well that’s the first
school I went to in Wales. After that, the only day school I went to was a school in Potters
Bar called Linden House, and I used to catch the 342 bus and go off to Linden House, and
when I was I suppose seven, yes when I was seven, I walked out in front of the 342 bus,
clearly with the bus driver, you know, yelling at me to stop, and I looked left but I didn't look
right and I was run over by an Austin 7, which I suppose is some claim to fame, and I got up
and ran about three hundred yards and was eventually caught by a policeman by the scruff of
the neck and carried back, and taken off to hospital in an ambulance, and apparently I had
appalling shock and rather like a sort of shot rabbit, I ran like a stag. And anyway, I was in
bed for oh, three or four months and nearly died as a result of that, got you know, sort of
pneumonia after it and all that sort of thing. But Linden House was a very nice place and I
enjoyed Linden House until that particular incident. So really, my first school was Wales,
and then Linden House, then Maidwell Hall and then Eton.
Seven was rather young to be travelling back and forth on buses by yourself.
On the 342? Oh the 342 was very cosy, and you know, I was left there by my mother, and
there were other people travelling on the bus you know, it was all pretty cosy stuff. But I
think I broke ranks when I was run over.
And, do you remember...you were actually in hospital for quite a long time, or you were in
bed at home?
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No I wasn’t, I was discharged from hospital almost immediately, I was only there half a day.
But I do remember vividly the driver of the Austin 7 rang my mother up every day for a
fortnight, and I thought to myself, this is rather odd, he goes on ringing up, and my mother
saying, ‘That nice man's rung up again’; always being told by my mother it was no fault of
his, entirely my fault. But I think people were concerned I wasn't going to make it, but
anyway, I did.
And at that time in your life, and particularly perhaps while you were stuck in bed, did people
read to you, were you told stories and...?
Oh yes. Yes, one was read to, but my mother was much more keen that I should read rather
better than I did.
And reading wasn’t a pleasure by the sound of it.
No, it was a real chore, at that stage of my life.
Did any books at that point matter to you a lot?
Swallows and Amazons, that’s about as far as it went! (laughs)
And was music a part of your childhood at this point?
Singing certainly very early on, very early on, yes.
And would you be taken to church, was church a part of your life?
Church was an absolutely fundamental part, we would always go to church on Sundays, yes.
And your parents were sort of fairly active, practising Christians?
Oh yes, both were.
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And was there ever a point when you wanted to not be? Was there ever a sort of division
over that?
No. No, I think one got less interested at times and then more interested, and I think now,
although I don’t go to church as regularly as one should, I’m probably more religious-minded
now than I was previously. My mother was very religious-minded; the church where we
lived in Oxfordshire, which we have done for the last forty years, the church was just over the
garden wall, and we used to light-heartedly when we were children bet on how long of a
three-hour service on Good Friday that my mother would last, and she used to fool us
occasionally by going the full distance!
And at the Linden House school and the Cygnet school, did you learn anything? Do you
remember anything?
No, I think I must have learnt very little at both schools. Mrs Rene O'Mahney was the
headmistress in Machynlleth of the Cygnets, and I do remember her encouraging us to learn
the spelling of long words by singing, whether it may be ‘conversation’, I can remember that,
going on and on, and that's one word I have always been able to spell.
So that was something! And how was your prep school chosen?
Prep school was chosen because Oliver Wyatt the headmaster was I think quite well-known
to...or great friends of my parents, knew Oliver Wyatt the headmaster of Maidwell well, and
thought it would be an admirable place for us to go to, particularly in the War; wonderful
gardens and lovely lake and all that sort of thing. And you know, my parents went down to
meet him and they were very taken by the place and particularly taken by him. He was a
marvellous gardener, and that obviously counted for quite a lot with both my parents.
And all the brothers went there?
David went to a place called Westgate, and so did Stephen for a short time, but Stephen was
transferred to Maidwell and the rest of us went there.
Can we just get it clear, the order in which your brothers came?
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Yes. David, Stephen, Julian, myself, Christopher and Elizabeth.
Right. And what was your reaction on getting to prep school? I mean you said it was the
first time you had really been sent away.
Well, I remember the first night as you can imagine you know, sort of endless tears and
emotion and everything else, feeling totally lost. But woke up the next morning and realised
that my brother Julian was there who was a pretty good friend anyway, and he immediately
introduced me to two or three people who had been there for one term before, and one of
them I happened to like enormously straight away, so plain sailing from day one.
And the friend you made almost straight away, is he still a friend?
He is, yes, but I haven’t seen him for a very very long time. When I say he still is a friend, he
would be if I met him tomorrow.
Right. And were there any people there that are still in your life, or were in your life in the
City?
Yes, there are. There’s one particular person, someone called Michael Allsop, who became
Chairman of Allen Harvey & Ross, a rival firm in the discount market of ours, and he was, I
suppose he would be sort of three years older than me, but he was a great friend of my
brother Julian's, and always particularly kind to me at Maidwell, and he has actually become,
well became a very great friend from that day on. It was quite amusing actually, thinking of
Mike Allsop, that when we were chairmen of separate firms in the money markets in the City
we happened to be in New York at the same time and he knew where I was staying and the
dinner that he was going to that particular night had been cancelled, and I actually hadn't
arranged anything. Anyway he rang me up and we had dinner together, and we were both
looking to take over an American firm, no particular one but we were looking around, and
when we were sitting down at dinner in this restaurant a chap opposite us, a table about
twenty or thirty feet away, suddenly looked like a ghost, and I said to Mike Allsop, ‘Do you
know that fellow?’ And he said, ‘Yes, I spent the morning with him.’ So I said, ‘Well I
spent the afternoon with him.’ And anyway, we went over to this chap and put him out of his
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misery, that we hadn't been talking about business, we just happened to be very old friends.
He said, ‘How long have you known each other?’ ‘Oh,’ we said, ‘I suppose forty, forty-five
years, something like that.’ He simply couldn’t believe it.
And which of you took the company over, or didn’t either?
He did.
And that was amicable?
And I think he was probably right. They chose him, and they weren’t particularly interested
in us.
Right. And how long were you at this little school?
Maidwell? I was there from ’43 to ’48.
And during that time, did you find any kind of mentor in one of the masters, or matron, or an
older boy, or anything?
I don’t think particularly; I think that the headmaster, Oliver Wyatt, was such a fantastic
headmaster one...he was sort of the focal point. But there were certain other masters who one
had a very good relationship with, and one actually was called Francis Irving who is probably
the one that I didn’t have a good relationship with, and I never saw him from 1948 until 1988
when I was walking round the Winchester cricket ground watching a nephew of mine playing
for Eton against Winchester, and it was jolly nice to see him, and he became rather a friend in
about ten minutes.
And did you still feel a certain awe for him, because he had been that figure of authority?
No, I think only a certain awe. He was...he did say he thought that...he had heard a little bit
about me, he said he thought my life had probably been...just even more interesting than his,
since we last met, but I’m not sure that's true, but...no, he was very nice.
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And was it a competitive school, or were you allowed to go at your own pace?
We were extremely competitive, but we had fewer boys than most of the schools that we
played games against, so we were in for the most terrible drubbing almost wherever we went.
But whenever we set off for a school match at whatever sport we were always confident we
were going to win until we got thumped.
And were you particularly good at certain sports?
I wasn’t, I was such a small boy that I really made very little impact in games, just
enthusiasm possibly. But...no, I think when one grew up and realised that OK, village tennis,
that sort of thing, one was probably pretty good at, but not above that level, and club cricket
was probably going a little bit high, but village cricket really quite effective. But getting on
to other sports, I then decided, I thought I ought to try and shine at some sport or other, so I
chose two minority sports, because obviously there was a better chance in those, one being
real tennis and the other being the Cresta Run, and I did those very enthusiastically and
became quite good at real tennis, and more than adequate at the Cresta I would say.
And when were you doing these?
This real tennis I was introduced to by Mark Baring, who was a friend in the City, and I
suppose I started playing in 1956. And in those days I was able to get away from the office
soon after four o’clock, so I was at Lord’s for the five o’clock court three days a week, so I
played a great deal of real tennis for about three or four years.
And did you meet other City people doing that, or wasn’t it that sort of world?
It was...yes, a few other City people, but it was a great variety of people in actual fact, some
who presumably had never worked at all, others who were pretty able solicitors, or market
gardeners or whatever. I mean it was a good variety of people.
And you don’t still play real tennis?
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I haven’t played for a bit, but my mother’s father, Charles Leslie, was a very fine, real tennis
player, and when I went to Australia on a business trip, which coincided with the centenary
test match at Melbourne, what we did was to, Colin Cowdrey, who was a great chum, he and
I decided that we would start a hundred years of real tennis between England and Australia.
So we asked the MCC if we could form a team, which we did, and we played, practised real
tennis every morning before walking across the park to watch the test match, and we ended
up the day after the test match, which was one of the most memorable matches of all time,
with a marvellous real tennis match which we incidentally lost 3-2, but it was a pretty good
match, and it was sponsored by Quantas. In fact we had a lovely time.
How do you happen to come to know Colin Cowdrey?
I don’t know how I come to know Colin Cowdrey, but after his cricketing career he joined
Barclays Bank and that really is the first link. And we’ve been on sort of golfing holidays
and things like that together.
And, I can’t...I’m sorry this is awful of me, but I can’t remember what the Cresta Run is.
The Cresta Run. There’s a thing called the St Moritz Tobogganing Club, which manages the
riding and racing of toboggans on the Cresta Run. The Cresta Run is the first ice run that’s
been built in the world, and it goes from just outside the town of St Moritz down to a little
village called Celerina three-quarters of a mile below. But the first competitive winter sport
of any note in the Alps was tobogganing, and it was started by the English, and it was done
on a snow road, the Davos-Klosters main road which was snow, and it’s exactly the same
road today, but they don’t race toboggans down it. And after one of these races there, their
annual big race called the International, some St Moritzers, or visitors to St Moritz had been
over to take part in that particular event, and these chaps at Davos said, well why don’t you
build an ice run at St Moritz, you’ve got a marvellous gulley there, and we’ll come over and
race you on your ice run and you can come back and race us on our snow run, and that’s how
the Cresta Run was built. And it was built, really financed by a man called Johannes Badrutt,
who introduced winter sports to St Moritz, and he financed it for the first three years of its
existence, and he then said that, you Englishmen, what you must do is form your own club,
and they were all very flattered, they formed their own club, and he said you know, when
you've got the thing into shape you must make it financially viable, and it is your club from
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then on. And of course he was a very shrewd man, because it made absolutely certain there
were a lot of overseas visitors coming to St Moritz from that moment on.
Including you.
Including me.
When did you start going?
I started in 1959, and I rode the Cresta actively until 1972.
And in your childhood, did your parents take you skiing and things like that, or not?
No we didn't because, I think one of the reasons was that we didn’t have you know, I think
spare cash for exotic holidays, and also it was so soon after the war that, you know, you
couldn’t go abroad; in fact I think there was a £25 limit on sort of annual travel per person,
so... It never really came up in conversation at all. It was only my last term at Millfield,
when I was sort of rising nineteen I suppose that I, you know, six of us went off to
Grindelwald, and we were going to have a great holiday but we arrived there on that...you
know, went overnight on that twenty-four-hour journey in the couchette, and I hired skis
immediately we arrived and even before lunch got on them and went down a nursery slope
and I twisted my knee so badly that there was no question of skiing for the next two weeks
we were going to be there. So, the only other activity was tobogganing, and I took that up
and then when someone mentioned to me, you know, you must do the real thing and go to St
Moritz, I did the real thing.
Right. And so were family holidays mainly in England, or didn’t you really have them?
Scotland. They were inevitably in Scotland, a very remote place we used to go to called
Kinloch Hourn, which is obviously at the head of a loch, about seven miles in length opposite
Skye. And very good sea fishing, and when there were heavy rains sea trout as well was
quite good. But marvellous sea fishing, and under the leadership of my elder brother we used
to go out and fish for hours on end.
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And what would you do, stay in a hotel, or...?
No, it was a house that we took off some great friends of my parents, and going through
things many years ago when my mother died in 1979, we found one of the old accounts from
Kinloch Hourn dated 1946, and we took the place for £20 a week, so it was not too
expensive.
By the way, why did your parents rent your Hertfordshire house?
I think they had very little capital, and you know, it was a good arrangement. They rented it
off the Salisbury family. And then in 1949 we were left this estate in Oxfordshire, about
twelve hundred acres, and we decided to go there.
Who left that to you?
A cousin.
Right. And did they have a London base as well, or did they commute?
No, my parents didn’t, no, never, but the previous generations did, yes.
Right. But going back to your prep school, were there things you were particularly good at
and particularly bad at, or is what you said before does that cover almost all subjects?
What, are you talking sort of work or play?
Work.
Work. I was extremely good at mental arithmetic, and not better than average at anything
else, and pretty poor at most things.
But you weren’t anxious about it, as we said before.
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No. Well I was anxious in that I thought I might not get into a public school; common
entrance was a massive brick wall ahead of one.
But you passed.
Yes. I wasn’t allowed to take it until I was well into thirteen, so...yes, I did pass, just.
And so you went to Eton at about thirteen.
13.8, which is pretty late.
And what was it like when you went, at first?
Well I had one elder brother there, Julian, who had to put up with me yet again, who sort of
kept a guiding hand, and then my housemaster was a man called Jack Peterson, who
eventually became headmaster of Shrewsbury, and he was an extremely good games player,
and obviously academically he was pretty bright. But he was a very understanding man, he
was an ideal housemaster for me.
And what do you think Eton gave you?
What did Eton give me? It...I think it broadened one's outlook on life, it developed one's
competitive instincts; it certainly encouraged one to take a view, possibly to the point which
they would not have wanted to have encouraged, and that is that occasionally one used to
gamble.
On what?
Anything, mainly horses.
But actually going to a bookmaker, or you would gamble within the school?
We used to do it by post, with a bookmaker.
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And were you successful?
I think we were surprisingly successful. We had one or two friends there who were the sons
of trainers and sons of owners, and we got some quite good information from time to time
and quite a bit of duff information as well. We had some terrible set-backs. But I don't think
we were...no, I can’t believe we made money, but we certainly didn't lose very much and we
were betting in very small sums.
And did you get involved in societies and things? I mean did it broaden your outlook on life
in ways you can really pin-point?
Well I think at that stage I was, as I say, developing very slowly, and I didn’t. I mean I
focused all my energy I think on games, and I didn't shine at them, certainly not at that stage,
in any way at all. No, I enjoyed Eton enormously for the people, for the place. Yes, I mean I
enjoyed it enormously, but I can’t pretend I succeeded at any aspect of it.
[End of F3119 Side B]
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Tape 2 [F3120] Side A (part 3)
And, had anybody told you about sex, did anyone talk to you about that?
I don’t think so. I mean I should think the basics were explained. Actually yes, my
housemaster - not housemaster, my headmaster at Maidwell did.
And did he tell you in a way that made it understandable, or was he rather
embarrassed about it?
No, he explained it in words of one syllable, and made it appear quite interesting but
something that wasn’t actually going to affect one too much, you know, for a bit.
And did he put sex in an emotional context, or was it purely telling you the biology of
it?
No, the biology.
And your parents didn't say anything to you?
No, but if one had shown any inclination to go off the rails from that point of view, or
show any interesting developments, or whatever, I'm sure they would have got
involved quickly, but actually I don't think I ever talked to either of my parents about
sex.
And it sounds as though it didn’t become something that worried you at all.
Not at all, no.
And did you encounter homosexuality at Eton, was that an element?
No, I don’t think so. That was...there were, I’m sure, small pockets of that, but no, I
don’t think there was anything active that I knew of at all, no.
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And what was your attitude to girls at this stage? You had a sister, so they weren't an
unknown quantity, but had you come across many socially?
I had come across a few - yes, I had come across quite a few socially, but I can’t say I
was frightfully interested in them.
But you weren’t worried.
Oh I certainly wasn’t worried about them, no, no.
Had you fallen in love with someone, anyone, either in your own life or on the screen,
or anything like that?
I’m sure the first person I fell in love with, and I can’t remember who it was, but it
was certainly on the screen, definitely on the screen.
And was cinema quite important to you?
Cinema was...at Millfield I used to go to the cinema quite a bit, a local place, local
town, Street, one used to go down there most Saturday nights, so yes, one got
involved in that, but...no, I can't say it was that important. Games was overriding.
Right. And at what age was the transition between Eton and Millfield?
At the age of seventeen and a half.
Because Millfield is a sporting school isn’t it, there’s a lot of sport scholarships.
Very, very sporting.
So was it partly that, as well as the teaching, that you appreciated?
I think that my parents thought that I would enjoy it from that point of view, but I
think they also thought much more importantly, that Millfield boasted that there were
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only five or six children in...five or six children in a class, to a class, so you did get
individual tuition. There were 200 boys and 20 girls when I went there.
And how did you find it? It must have been a great contrast to Eton.
It was, but I was extraordinarily fortunate in one of the first people I met there was an
old friend from Eton, who I, I can't even remember why he left Eton, but anyway he
was a chap called John Leon, who is John Standing, the actor, and he’s been
extremely successful since. But anyway, he was sharing a room with a chap who
eventually went into the Church, called Ratcliffe, and I think that the third member
didn’t come back for some reason or other, anyway, they negotiated that I should get
into that slot, and so I had a very nice year at Millfield, thanks to John Standing.
And is he still a close friend?
I haven’t seen him for about five years, but yes, I would say he was a very close
friend, although I don’t really see him very often.
And of the people who were your contemporaries at Eton, have quite a lot of them
remained steady friends?
Yes they have, yes, yes.
Have some of them been in the City as well?
Yes, strings of them really, yes. I think most...well they all went into the services,
most of them into the Army to do their National Service. I didn’t because I had a
disease called Osgood Schlatter's Disease, which sounds frightfully upper-class; in
actual fact what it means is you've got a bit of gristle missing below one of your kneecaps, and therefore you can't do long-distance marching without damaging the knee.
And the Army at that time were very worried that, you know, people get invalided
out, and compensation etcetera, so they wouldn’t have me in the Army. But anyway a
lot of my friends went into the Army, and a lot of them went into industry or the City.
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So do you think it helped your City career that you did have that sort of network of
Etonians, or was it irrelevant?
I don’t think that did at all. I think what helped my City career is that, as I didn’t go
into the Army I got two years start on my contemporaries, and I needed that two
years. But it gave me time to find my feet. And I happened to work in a firm which
was very small, quite successful, and full of very nice people.
And all your brothers went to Eton?
Yes, they all went to Eton, all five of us.
And what about Elizabeth?
She went to Heathfield, and she wouldn't describe herself as intelligent, in fact she
isn’t intelligent, but one of those people with enormous common sense, but not the
sort of person who was going to sort of become head girl of somewhere like
Heathfield, but she was head girl for a year, presumably because she was the
compromise choice, and I think there were two or three frightfully intelligent girls
who all thought they should be head girl and the headmistress decided to choose
someone from the ranks, and that was my sister, and she apparently did a remarkably
good job, and anything she has done since she has done pretty well too.
What has she done since?
Oh, I don’t...I mean...what is she? She’s...I think she is Chairman of Kent Garden
Scheme, and she’s, I would think, she ran the Kent Churches, the sort of churches
scheme. I mean she has sort of organised the over-sixties, she has...I mean she does
things for other people the whole time.
Did she marry?
She married someone called Val Fleming, who I shared a flat with for eight years, and
they both live in Kent now, and have four sons, all of which are good games players.
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The eldest, Matthew Fleming, he plays cricket for Kent and has been pretty
successful. The others aren’t as good as that, but they’re, you know...I’m afraid it’s
games again.
And she didn’t at any point have a career? She didn’t want that?
No she didn’t, she got married...she worked in my brother’s antique business for a
while, and she then got married when she was twenty-four I think, so no time for a
career, but has got four sons.
And what about the brothers, what did they do in their stages?
What do they do? David went into Anthony Gibbs, the family bank, and did that for
quite a long time, and then he was sent out to Australia, to really save the Australian
subsidiary. Well first of all he worked in Australia from the age of twenty-one to
twenty-eight, in the Australian subsidiary, but came back to England, and then aged
thirty-five he went out again to try and save it because it was in trouble, and he did
save it, and he also married an Australian girl. So they came back here, I think for
two or three years, but have been out in Australia ever since and I'm sure that's where
they will spend the rest of their days.
Was there any pressure on him to go into the family bank, or is that what he wanted to
do?
No, I think he wanted to do that. He was at Oxford, he was a good oar, and would
have rowed in the Boat Race in I suppose 1948, 1949, but he put his hand through a
window three weeks before and cut one of the tendons. Anyway, as Oxford lost by
the biggest margin ever recorded we were really quite pleased that he didn’t make it.
But no, he was in Anthony Gibbs in London for quite, I suppose half of his working
life, and the rest he has spent in Australia, and he was Chairman of the subsidiary,
Gibbs Bright, he was on the Australia & New Zealand Bank for a very long time.
Incidentally, when my father was Chairman of the Australia & New Zealand Bank the
other members of the board - this is way back in 1963 or something like that - said we
would very much like your son David to be a member of the board, because he knows
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a lot about Australia and he's absolutely ideal, and my father firmly said, ‘One Gibbs
is quite enough, and while I am Chairman he will not be a director’, and that was that.
But no sooner had my father retired but they put him on the board and he is a key
person in Australia in the ANZ Bank.
So, would David have been rather fed up about that, not being allowed, or not?
Not really, no. No, my father was someone who encouraged us into what he believed
were the right areas, then it was up to us, but he wasn’t the sort of person who wanted
to push his children. He would fall over backwards not to, because he didn't think it
was good for them, and you know, that was his belief. But David in Australia, he is
also President of the World Wide Fund for Nature I think it's now called isn't it? He is
President of the Australian side and he is doing a second term doing that. He’s very
interested in the environment, and knows a great deal about the habitat and all that
sort of thing, conservation.
Do you see him much?
Oh yes, I mean he comes over here, oh, certainly...well three times a year, and comes
with his marvellous wife Fleur probably on two of those occasions, and they always
come and stay here, so I see them then, and I usually go to Australia once every three
or four years, that sort of thing.
And does he have children?
He has got four children, and they are aged twenty-five to twenty-one, Emma, Hugo,
Justin and Arabella, and they are all marvellous value, and are there.
So you’re fond of them, since you’ve got their photographs.
Oh yes, they’re very much a part of one’s life, they’re very good value. Quite noisy
but very good value.
Are they very Australian?
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Two were born here, and two in Australia. I would say to answer your question, they
are all very Australian.
And they were educated there, they didn’t come over here?
Well in actual fact Justin came to Eton for two years, from the age of sixteen to
eighteen, but otherwise they've all been educated in Australia, yes.
And the next brother down?
The next brother down, Stephen, he was Chief Executive - well he was...I think he
was the London Manager of Port Line Shipping, having been in the Army in the 60th
where he got a commission, and he was very interested in the Army and went on with
that afterwards. But he ran Port Line, and then he became Chief Executive of
something called Charles Barker, who are financial public relations people in the City,
and he eventually became Chairman of that. But in 1971 he bought an estate on an
island, the Isle of Arran, sort of opposite Glasgow, and he has been a hill farmer, and
he has also since then developed it as a small sporting estate, and it’s a very very
beautiful place. And also he is a director of Vaux Brewery, he’s I think on the odd
investment trust, he is involved in the National Trust of Scotland, and his wife is also
involved in Scottish affairs, particularly sort of the art world. And...oh he does
various things, but he is based on the Isle of Arran now.
So that’s another wonderful base to have for you.
It’s a wonderful place for us to go to, and I go there two or three times a year, and will
go there more in the future, which is bad news for them but very nice for me! So, he
has got three children, Emily who is nineteen, who is going to work in the European
Business School at Regents Park, and then sons Jamie, seventeen, who is at
Glenalmond, and was at a little school called Belhaven Hill, and then William, who is
also at Belhaven Hill, so that’s them.
And do all these nephews and nieces see one another?
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Yes, they get on very well. Oh yes there's a lot of intermingling going on in that
generation. Then of my brothers, then Julian is a bachelor, he’s number three. He
was in Anthony Gibbs for quite a while, and then he has had his own investment
advice business, and that’s what he has been doing ever since. He writes an awful lot
of articles on investment for various magazines and things, and he is very interested in
the arts really, and the sort of person who has, you know, run boys’ clubs in the East
End and those sort of things.
And is his company City based?
No, he’s in the West End, and it's his own business, he has kept it small. It got a bit
large at one stage and then cut it back and it’s now quite small. But that’s what he
likes doing, so he does that.
And what about his life when he's not working? Does he have interests?
Oh well it’s music and the theatre I think mainly, that’s what his great love is.
And you’re still close to him?
Oh yes, very much so. Oh very much so, I talk to him an awful lot. And then
Christopher, he started his own antique business, and...Christopher was a particularly
interesting person because, I mean Julian was conventional and David, Stephen and I,
I guess are also conventional, so is my sister, but Christopher wasn’t; he’s more so
now but he was very much the opposite when he was young, and he was certainly one
of the first people to have very long hair, and this was in the late Fifties, and you
know, sort of, a few rings and bells and capes and things, all that sort of thing.
How did you react to that?
With...certainly embarrassed. The only one of us I think that reacted perfectly
normally was my mother, who was extremely amused and interested, and
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tremendously supportive. I mean we've always got on extremely well with
Christopher, but he was quite difficult at that particular stage.
Do you think you’ve got somehow a latent desire to wear capes and rings and bells?
No I certainly haven’t, no! (laughs)
So it wasn't that he was actually touching on something that you found you quite
wanted to do?
No no no, absolutely not, no. We were all as square as they come, and he wasn’t.
Quite obviously what we didn't spot, that he was very much more imaginative than
the rest of us, and...
So was it unhappy for him? Was he unhappy at that point, if he didn't really fit in?
I would think he was quite unsettled possibly. But anyway, gradually his antique
business became more firmly established, and I suppose he grew in confidence, and
he’s done extremely well.
What's the name of the business?
The name of the business is Christopher Gibbs Limited, and when my father was you
know, sort of very senior in the City of London, people used to ask him, you know,
what’s Christopher doing, and my father would say, ‘Well he’s in the antique world’.
‘Well, what firm?’ ‘Well it’s called Christopher Gibbs Limited, and the best thing
about it is that it's limited!’ Which he always said with a slight twinkle. But in actual
fact, although like lots of businesses in ’73/4, that sort of period, when he you know,
sort of bumped along on the bottom...but since then it’s gradually got better, and over
the last decade or so, I mean he’s done very well as an antique dealer, but far better
advising other people, you know, whether it be the big galleries or museums or
whoever.
Or whether to buy something, or whether it’s authentic, or what?
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Oh yes, yes, advice on whether it’s authentic. No he has the most interesting time.
And things like Spencer House, which Lord Rothschild has completely re-done as it
was, I mean he, my brother Christopher and David Mlinaric are two of the people who
played a very leading part in that. And I think he was, Christopher was I think one of
the two artistic directors of Leeds Castle many years ago, I think that was his first sort
of notable achievement. And I believe they had a wing of Leeds Castle which had
been empty for a long time and they decided to open it, it hadn’t been open since the
War, and he re-ordered all the works of art at Leeds Castle and borrowed suitable
works of art from other museums and galleries and things.
How did he become so expert?
Well I don’t...I think that he has just always...I mean he’s self taught I would think,
because literally at the age of, you know, five he was interested in beautiful things.
Oh he was always interested in beautiful things, and when he was two or three he was
always arranging flowers and things like that, picking them and arranging them, and
always interested in beautiful things I think.
Did you have pictures on your family walls?
Well yes, we didn’t have good pictures really, just the occasional one. But...no, I
mean we used to go to country house sales in the holidays, my mother used to enjoy
that and she used to take two or three of us along. And Christopher enjoyed those
outings enormously, because he wasn’t in the sort of, the tennis set-up or the mowing
the lawn department, so it wasn’t his form at all, but country house sales, or reading,
were very much.
And, did you get taken to art galleries at all as children?
I think a bit, but not much. If we went on holiday to France, say my parents and the
four youngest children, we would visit what I would say were endless churches, but
I’m sure Christopher would take the view that we never saw enough.
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And was the theatre part of your childhood?
A bit. I mean the New Theatre at Oxford, eight miles from where we lived, that was
certainly a part of our holidays. We would go to the New Theatre every holidays
maybe twice, that sort of thing.
Actually, you didn’t describe the Oxford house did you.
I didn’t.
You only talked about the other one. Could you perhaps tell me about that?
That’s a little village called Clifton Hampden, which is on the Thames, and it’s eight
miles south of Oxford, and it’s between Dorchester and Abingdon. It’s a very pretty
village, it was prettier before the double yellow lines were imposed on it by the local
authority; it had its own toll bridge, and lovely thatched cottages throughout the
village. Now the lower part of the village still has some thatched cottages, but it’s all
changed a bit but it’s still very pretty.
And what was your house like there?
Our house was on the top of the hill overlooking the Thames, and it was built by Scott
in I think 1860, that sort of time. Not very beautiful, but a lovely garden, and the
inside of the house was very homely and ideal as a large family house.
And did you have some staff there? Was it quite a lot to run?
A limited amount. I mean one would really say two or three very reliable, marvellous
friends in the village who had actually worked in the house before we went there, and
they continued, and then you know, their successors. But...yes, I mean when I was
growing up there I suppose we had two people that came in daily, and we had a cook.
So your mother really did quite a lot in fact.
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Oh my mother did a lot, yes.
And how much of her time was spent doing the Girl Guide things?
Well I would think that she was the overseas commissioner of the Girl Guides from
the age of forty to fifty-five, that sort of time, and that would have been from 1945 to
1960, so she was still bringing the children up really in 1945. She had the most
amazing energy.
And you didn’t mind her going off and doing things like that?
No. If she was wearing Girl Guide uniform with her various decorations, like the
Order of the Silver Fish, no, we would rather she went on her own; we would prefer
not to be with her when she was in Girl Guide uniform! (laughing)
Was she the sort of person that wanted you to be very organised all the time at home?
Well what she hated was us being indoors listening to the, you know, Turner Leighton
records on the, the old 78s and all that sort of thing; she couldn’t bear it when the
weather was good, that we would sit in there, and so we used to get pushed out.
And did you resent that?
I think it irritated us, yes. But of course she was one hundred per cent right.
And did you and your brothers at some stage start going to dances and things, or not?
Well we were pretty self-sufficient, because we had our own family tennis four, my
two eldest brothers my sister and I were really the family four, and we always thought
that we were quite self-sufficient and we were pretty happy with our lot at home, and
why should we get too involved with other people. My parents took precisely the
opposite view, and the opposite view won, so we did go to quite a lot of things, yes.
And were those torture to you, or pleasure, or what?
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I think the older ones seemed to enjoy them a great deal more than us younger ones.
Were they quite formal?
No no no, no. But they were not quite our scene, some of us.
And did you form any close friends with anyone in the village, or...?
Oh yes, absolutely, absolutely. Whether it was people who worked on the estate or
ran the village shop, or whatever. I mean...yes, they were all good friends, you know,
the local garage, I mean I used to go up to our garage, a marvellous man called Vin
Bargus, and he used to shoe horses as a sideline and things like that. I mean I used to
go and sit up there and work a petrol pump or whatever, you know, I mean just
because one liked Vin Bargus and he was prepared to put up with one, you know.
And were you interested in mechanics and cars and things like that?
Not particularly. When I was at Millfield I had a capital sum of £30 in the world and
I spent it all on buying a 1934 London taxi, and the reason I did was two-fold really,
that the London taxi had the same date of birth as I did, 1934, and I thought it would
be a very amusing way to drive home, and it...well it was, but it was a vehicle that one
had to carry quite a lot of water on board, because if you went up a hill it sort of
steamed away and one had to wait and then pour in the water. But no, I had no idea
how the machine worked, but I enjoyed my London taxi.
In fact there was a time when a lot of London taxis were for sale after the War wasn’t
there, because other cars were hard to come by I think.
I suppose it was, because they weren’t allowed to go on being taxis because they
didn’t satisfy the new regulations.
And, was anyone at Millfield of help to you when you were deciding what the next
move would be after school?
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I don’t think so. I had a German housemaster called Alfie Neumann, and he was a
nice chap. And my headmaster, who has actually just died, R.J.O. Meyer, who played
cricket for Somerset and a very good games player, and he founded Millfield, and he
was always known as ‘the boss’. I don’t think he was any help to me in my life after
Millfield, but on the other hand that wasn’t his fault, he wasn’t asked, and things sort
of had mapped out for me. I mean my father took the view that...well to all of us he
made suggestions, and one was that I might go and work in a chipboard plant in
Australia, which the family firm owned and ran, you know, for a time, and see how
that went. I might go and work in the wine trade in France. But I at that time wasn’t
terribly keen on going abroad; Australia was far too far, and I wasn’t that keen on the
French, and I didn’t like wine. So the other possibility was the money markets in the
City, where he thought my mental arithmetic, and my enjoyment of people, would
probably be another good idea, so I went for that.
And at this stage, when you ended Millfield it was still mental arithmetic really that
you were good at and not much else, or...?
Yup, absolutely. I was really very disappointing at all other things.
And did your mother have any idea what you should do? Was she interested?
She thought I should go in the City, she thought that that’s, you know, that that would
be the life... They both thought when I said what I wanted to do. My mother thought
it was a bit unimaginative and I ought to go abroad, and she agreed that if I did well in
the City I possibly could go abroad later, but at that stage there wasn't any question of
me doing well at anything.
And had you got any other desires to be something else, or not?
Not really, no. I wanted to get a good job and be reasonably paid while I thought how
I was really going to make money. I mean I think that was...those were my ambitions.
And why do you think money was so important to you?
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Home comforts, I think.
Because you hadn’t had them, or because you wanted to...?
No, well I think...one had them, but one knew perfectly well those things weren’t
going to go on forever with one’s parents, and therefore one wanted to, you know, be
in a position to buy one’s own set-up.
[end of session]
[End of F3120 Side A]
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C409/086 Tape 2 Side B (part 4)
Tape 2 [F3120] Side B (part 4)
Interview with Roger Gibbs on the 4th of November 1992 at his house.
Have you been doing your Cresta Run since I last saw you?
No I haven’t. I think.....[break in recording]
When we last talked we got to the point where you were just leaving school.
Oh, was that all had we got to? (laughs)
We talked about quite a lot of other family things as well, to do with growing up and your
grandparents, and your sporting life actually we covered quite a lot of. But you had said
there were various options suggested to you and that it was slightly that your mother
favoured you going into the City, and that you knew you wanted to have a reasonable income
for creature comforts as you put it, and I wondered, once you had decided to go into the City
what happened next, how you actually achieved that.
My father was in the Ministry of Economic Warfare throughout the War, and one of his close
friends there was someone called Dick Jessel, and Dick Jessel ran a small discount house
called Jessel Toynbee, which he himself founded in 1922, and it only employed 25 people.
And Dick Jessel said he was looking for some offices near the Bank of England, and my
father was Master of the Grocers Company, which is absolutely next door to the Bank of
England. He was Master in ’38/9. And the Grocers Hall was bombed in the War, not badly
but it was damaged enough that some of it had to be rebuilt. And there was an extremely nice
area which the Grocers Company wanted to let, and my father thought it was ideal for Dick
Jessel's company. So after they had been there for, Jessel Toynbee had been in the Grocers
Hall for about two years, Dick Jessel said to my father, ‘If there's anything I can ever do for
you Geoffrey, just let me know’, and my father, who has never, or did never push any of his
children at all, did realise he had a boy at school who was sixteen who was not making
enormous progress academically, and he said, ‘Well I might be in touch with you in two or
three years’ time,’ and that's how I joined Jessel Toynbee.
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And did you know Mr Jessel at all yourself, or not?
Never met him at all, no.
So can you remember your very first encounter with the office, and with the man?
I can remember being very apprehensive, because I was very young for my age anyway, and I
was only just nineteen, and Dick Jessel was a very overbearing individual to look at, but
underneath he was a very kind man, and I knew he was a great friend of my father’s, and you
know, I was quite lucky to be there, and I sort of settled in quite quickly.
And what were you put to do at first? Presumably, although you had been to the City
because of your father, you didn’t actually know much about it did you, at this stage?
I knew absolutely nothing about it really, I mean obviously a tiny bit but nothing of any great
relevance. And...no, it took me a little time to make any impression at all. But we only had
five departments at Jessel Toynbee and I worked as a junior person in each department. But I
think the best thing Dick Jessel got me to do was to be a messenger for six months, and I
went round the City all day and every day for six months, and therefore I knew every
alleyway within the Square Mile intimately, and all the short cuts; it stood one in very good
stead over a longer term.
And did that time as a messenger teach you the character of different firms at all that point,
or not?
Well not only the character of the different banks that one visited, but the smell of them too.
I mean they all smelt slightly different, and had different atmospheres.
Can you pin it down at all?
No, I don’t think I can pin it down particularly, but some of them were rather musty.
And was there a world among the messengers? Were you a little class amongst yourselves?
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We were, yes, we were very much... It’s quite interesting actually, I had lunch with a firm in
the City only yesterday, and I saw two messengers who I didn’t actually remember their
names but they were old friends from, you know, thirty-five years ago, so we had a lovely
chat and reminisce. Yes, we were a bit of a gang.
And what are those two people doing now?
They’re both in Alexanders, funnily enough.
In a high level?
No, they’re not, no, they’re still...well l think one was a senior messenger, and whether the
other one had worked for a subsidiary or not, but they were I think doing senior messenger
jobs but also a bit of relatively unimportant clerical jobs, you know, or...not unimportant,
important, but not demanding.
And can you give me a taste of what the messengers’ world was? I mean what kind of things
would you all have talked about when you were off duty, that sort of thing?
We would have talked about sport. They used to talk about their times in the Army, and how
much they regretted that I hadn’t been knocked into shape by going into the Army, but I
failed my Army medical, and so they took advantage of that particular fact.
And what told them that you hadn’t been knocked into shape?
(laughs) I think I was probably rather scruffy.
Oh right, so you were able to do the job perfectly well, it was just...
Oh yes, no I think they thought I was quite a promising messenger, but...oh no, I don’t think
they looked down on me from that point of view, and I don’t think they actually looked down
on me, but I think they thought I was extremely scruffy, compared to them.
And was there any resentment that you probably weren’t going to stay a messenger?
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None at all, none at all. There may have been from one or two people, but the vast majority
were good friends. And I understood rather more about gambling than they did, and they
were interested in that.
And you didn’t feel uncomfortable with them, you felt perfectly all right?
Not at all, no. No, I loved that time.
There aren’t any anecdotes to do with that time? You didn't have near misses with messages
or anything?
I don’t think I've got any particular anecdotes, but there was a marvellous chap called
Pegrum, who was the head messenger at Jessel Toynbee, and he had been a corporal in the
Army, and he thought that I deserved, you know, or needed a lot of square-bashing, and...oh
he was a wonderful chap, wonderful chap. No we had a lot of laughs.
And what was the attitude of the messengers to the people at the top?
Oh I think we were all part of a team. I mean in our firm we were quite a small team, but
everyone was in it together, and they were very interested, although they possibly didn’t
understand the finer points of it, you know. When the Bank Rate went up unexpectedly and
we were on the wrong foot, I mean they sensed that as quickly as anyone. They were...I think
they were very supportive actually of the hierarchy. Mind you the hierarchy were quite
tough, but very understanding and nice people.
And presumably all the messengers were male?
All the messengers were male.
Was there any female working in the whole company?
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Certainly, we had three, I should think three or four. There weren't many secretaries in those
days, it didn’t seem to sort of happen, but we had a couple of female clerks, and they kept us
on our toes.
And what were the actual offices like, architecturally?
Wonderful, wonderful. I mean they were modern, I mean, and after the war, you know, not a
lot of money was spent on the offices, but they were very nice and we had quite nice pictures,
I mean nothing of any value; but they were very nice, civilised offices. We had at Jessel
Toynbee the directors’ room where there were five directors working in it, we had the
chairman's room, him on his own, and we had the general office, and that was that. And
downstairs we had a dining room.
And did you eat there?
I didn’t eat there until I was a director, and it was very much used for business and
entertaining the many banks that we dealt with, and I suppose at that time in the middle
Fifties we would have dealt with 150 banks; as we all know there are now 600, but it’s about
150 we used to deal with.
So at your messenger stage where would you have had your lunch?
Messenger days, we quite often had sandwiches at the Green Man. The Green Man in Queen
Victoria Street was our favourite haunt.
And would you have had alcohol at lunch time?
I don’t think we could afford alcohol. No, that’s not true, we might have had half a pint of
beer, something like that, but very modest.
And did you ever do anything with them in the evenings?
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In the evenings, occasionally; I went dog racing at Haringay occasionally with two of them.
We would have a drink after work, but work finished so early that one had to wait a bit for
that, so that didn’t happen very often.
By so early, you mean...?
I mean 4.30 was getting late.
And what time would you have started?
9.15.
So you had a comparatively short day.
Very short day. I could be on the tennis court, the real tennis court at Lord’s for five o’clock
any day I care to name. Four o’clock was squeezing it a bit, but five o’clock was quite
comfortable.
Right. And you said that the company had five departments, what were those five?
Well, we had a department that made up parcels of Treasury bills and bills of exchange, we
had a bill department, we had the cash department. What other departments did we have?
Well we had the money book, where everything was recorded by the people who actually
physically did the business, and we also had an area where people used to telephone the
banks in the afternoon. So there were five departments. Well there was obviously the
administration of the firm as well. But it was, you know, one or two people in each
department, quite small.
And have you got distinctive memories of any of those people, any of the key people?
I have very clear memories of all of them, yes.
Can you give me a couple of portraits?
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A couple of portraits? A couple of portraits. There was a very nice man called Bo Payne,
who was one of the directors. He was quite small, appeared to be rather insignificant but he
was the kindest, most thoughtful chap ever, and he became very popular, because we worked
on Saturday mornings and he was prepared to work every Saturday morning as long as he
could have the Monday off, which suited the book of most of the other directors. But he and
I, Bo Payne and I used to do Saturdays together for a bit and then we both did it individually.
It was marvellous having the power, you know, of running the firm on a Saturday morning.
He was an awfully nice man.
Do you know what he did on his Mondays?
On his Mondays, I should think he almost always played golf, he was very keen on that.
David Jessel, the Chairman, Dick Jessel's son, he was on the board of Eagle Star, and Great
Portland Estates and various other things. He was an extraordinarily sort of strong character,
and quite brusque and forceful, and he was the sort of person who might sort of provoke the
odd row, the odd altercation, and they were quite vigorous some of these discussions, but
within five minutes you were back to the same old marvellous routine. He was a very very
interesting character. And he ran the firm very well, and after Dick Jessel retired Ralph
Toynbee, who was a very remarkable man, ran it for a bit and then David Jessel. Ralph
Toynbee, there was one very good moment I remember. He played golf and was a brilliant
athlete too at school, and in the First World War he had a terrible time in the trenches and
they thought he would die, and anyway he had a platinum stomach and other ghastly things
that happened to him, and he never played games again after World War One. And we had
an impossible bank manager from one of our foreign banks came to lunch, he was an
Englishman, and he was very cocky indeed, and we couldn’t quite understand why he was,
then it came out as we were having our pudding, and he said that, you know, ‘Have you ever
done a hole in one?’ And Ralph Toynbee said, ‘Why do you ask that?’ He said, ‘Well I had
the most tremendous thrill, and this wonderful shot on Saturday,’ and I did this that and the
other. And then he turned to Ralph Toynbee and said, ‘Have you ever done a hole in one?’
And Ralph Toynbee was the most modest man that ever breathed, he said, ‘Three were quite
good shots but four were flukes.’ Collapse of stout party! (laughs) It was a marvellous
remark, coming from one of the mildest, kindest people, unassuming people. And then
actually Ralph Toynbee's son Michael ran the firm later on.
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Right. And was David roughly your age or was he a little older?
He was older; he was...I would think David Jessel was ten years older than me, and Michael
Toynbee nine years older.
Right. And what were your various stages within the company, what happened to you? You
were...?
Well I got pushed around and then I knew the business up to a point, and only up to a point,
and Dick Jessel unfortunately overtook a car on a humpback bridge near Newmarket and
nobody was badly hurt but I think he had quite a shock, and I think he must have had a mild
heart attack shortly afterwards. Anyway, he never came back to the firm, and they had to
make someone a director and there was really nobody else, so they made me a director.
And what year was that?
1960.
And can you just give me a little glimpse of what the work of the firm was in sort of idiot’s
language?
In idiot’s language, well one doesn’t need to do that. I mean what we were doing, we ran a
book of £40 million I suppose, and I would think the company was worth about a million
pounds, so we were forty times geared, and we made profits of about £100,000 after tax. I
mean the figures were all quite quite small. What we were was the intermediary, or one of
twelve intermediaries, or twelve main intermediaries, between the Bank of England and the
banking system, and the sort of ebbs and flows of money in the money markets are sorted out
by these discount houses. And that was our role, you know, the original middle man, but
doing a very effective job, helping to make a market in Treasury bills, commercial bills, and
also dealing in gilt-edged and you know, government stocks.
And did you have a natural flair for it?
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Well, they wanted to get, the board wanted to get rid of me after about two years, and Dick
Jessel – I was told this by David Jessel a few years later – he said at a board meeting we all
said this chap Gibbs, you know, he’s very nice but he’s absolutely hopeless, and he’s going to
be...he’s not going to be an asset to the firm, and really I honestly think from his point of
view, and ours, it’s better that he goes. And Dick Jessel said, ‘He’s staying.’ And the other
six directors said well you know, why do you say that? And he said, ‘Well I think he’s
actually going to take to this business like a duck to water in the end: admittedly it’s a slow
start, but you know, you can’t expect everyone to, you know, mature at exactly the same
pace.’ And they pressed the point, and he said, ‘Well I tell you, he is going to stay, because
there’s one very important point: he knows, without even thinking, that 15 to 8 is more than 7
to 4, and you don’t even know what I'm talking about.’ And the point he was making was
that I was quite good at mental arithmetic, and I was quite interested in gambling, and if
you're a controlled gambler that is the best thing to be, if you’re in the money markets or in
foreign exchange.
By the way, when you went to the dogs, did you put very small amounts on? How much were
you risking, personally as a gambler?
Well I suppose then one was earning...one was earning something like £25 a month after tax,
and I put...I put as much as £2 on a dog I suppose.
And were you finding the world of the City quite exciting? Did it appeal to you in that sense?
I don’t think it was exciting; it was enjoyable, and the more one learned about it, the more
people one met, the more one I think you know, obviously got involved, and the more one
appreciated the whole thing. But it wasn't exciting; not a lot happened, it was all rather
peaceful.
And how long do you think it was before you proved yourself and the other directors said oh,
he was right to keep him?
I'm not really sure that I ever proved myself in any major way at Jessel Toynbee, but when I
decided to leave, having been there for ten years, it went down like a lead balloon, so perhaps
I was more appreciated than I thought I was.
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And as a director what were your duties? What was your day then, what was it...?
Well in those days, and I think this should probably happen rather more nowadays, you had a
benevolent dictator at the top, and even if you were a director, well you were listened to but I
don't think the chairman always took a great deal of notice of my pearls of wisdom.
And did you mind?
I don't think so, because the atmosphere was right, and one was encouraged to go on saying
what one thought, and eventually a few of one’s schemes were adopted.
But if at the beginning certainly they weren’t taking much notice of what you said, what was
your role, what was the point of you from their angle? I mean could they have done without
you?
No, they couldn’t have done without me because they needed the numbers. It was not
because of any expertise or any great contribution, but you needed people to visit the banks
and chat up the clients, and sort of help with the running of the business. I mean I can’t
pretend there weren’t many other people who could have done my job just as well if not
better.
And who were the main clients?
The main clients were the banks. And my belief was that you don't just spend your time
concentrating on the largest bank in the world, which happened to be the Midland Bank in the
middle Fifties, which is almost...well it’s very difficult to believe, but Barclays was coming
up a bit, but the Midland Bank was the most important bank. No, I mean I thought it was
right to try and spread the net, and try and get new business, whether it was from the Japanese
banks or whatever, so I was very keen on meeting all these banks, and trying to attract new
business. And I think the majority of the board of Jessel Toynbee thought that you know,
let’s spend our energies, and the time that we have, and there aren't many of us with much
time to spare, to chat up the big institutions and really make a major play there. I was all for
spreading it, and I don’t know what was the right answer actually in the end; some of the
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large institutions were incredibly important to Jessel Toynbee, and I think in the longer term
some of the smaller, or sorry, some of the lesser known international banks appreciated the
trouble that was taken about them in the early days.
And when you went to visit the banks, what did you wear?
I wore my same old suit, and a top hat, and being six foot three and a half, and at that time I
was only nine and a half stone, so I looked like a lamppost anyway, and to have the top hat on
the top was almost too much to bear, so I used to carry it.
And did you partly also just like being part of the tradition, or did you just feel a fool with a
top hat?
I don’t know; you know, so many of my relations have been in the City over the last hundred
years or so, and I think one quite enjoyed the tradition of it all.
And do you regret its passing?
I think wearing top hats would be a little farcical nowadays; I mean it still happens, but I
think that’s a thing that really could fade away. But I believe in the traditions. Probably I
feel most strongly I think about the change in the last thirty-five years since I first went, or
thirty-eight years, since I first went to the City, I think the thing that I mind most about is that
if you said anything in the City thirty-five or forty years ago, you know, people took it at face
value and that was that, and that's no longer the case, because it’s been proved all too often
that you have to query almost everything from anyone nowadays.
Where do you think the rot came in from, and when do you think it started to change?
I’m not sure the rot came in from anywhere specifically, but if it did it trickled over from the
United States. I would think it trickled over from the United States. And the standard, I
mean the ethics in the City of London are in most cases still very high, but another element
has come in, and we've seen, you know, the various major enquiries of the last ten years, I
mean it’s just too obvious it has come in, and that has undermined the whole situation. I
mean people joke about the nod and the wink, but I mean in the old days if someone from the
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Bank of England, you know, just indicated they weren’t particularly happy about something,
it didn't happen again, and it was as simple as that, but now lawyers get involved, and the
whole thing’s so much more high profile and less satisfactory.
And does that mean that less and less the Bank of England gives any signal? Has it given up
that role?
I think that the nods and the winks faded out, I don't know, ten, fifteen years ago I suppose;
they certainly don’t exist now to the same extent that they used to, if they exist at all. And it
doesn’t work anything like as well as it did in the past, that's a sad thing.
And can you remember your personal first encounters with the Bank of England? Was it
quite intimidating?
Well I can actually remember it very vividly. I was sent out to the Bank of England to
borrow some money on a particularly short day, and in those days they lent money usually
for seven days; over the last twenty years a lot of it's been overnight, but it was usually for
seven days, and it was sort of at a penal rate. And I would say interest rates were five per
cent, and the rate that was going to be charged was six per cent, because the authorities
wanted interest rates to stay up, and they wanted to give a strong message. Anyway I was
sent off to see a Mr Hilton Clarke, who ran the Discount Office of the Bank of England, and
what a splendid man he still is, but Hilton Clarke was quite a figure, certainly as far as I was
concerned, and I went in to see him, and I remember we wanted to borrow £4 million - not a
great deal of money in today’s terms, but anyway, we wanted to borrow £4 million, and I said
I would like to borrow £4 million, and he said, ‘That’ll be for eight days.’ I said, ‘Eight
days?’ He said, ‘If you stay here much longer it’ll be nine or ten days.’ He said it very
charmingly but very firmly, so I said, ‘I'll take it to eight days.’ And that was that.
And was he taking advantage of you because you were a new recruit?
No he wasn’t, he was actually making the point that the Bank of England were in charge, and
I think he thought that was a message that I might receive fairly early on in my career, and I
think he was absolutely right. As I say he did it very nicely but it was very firm, and I got the
message.
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What was his office like, what was the environment like? Was it very intimidating?
Well it was a sort of wooden-pannelled office, a large desk. He was as tall as me, and
obviously rather more impressive. And, no, he was a good man, and I wasn’t sort of...I don’t
think I was overwhelmed by him in any way at all, but he made his point, and I absorbed it.
If your company had sent somebody else along they would have got better terms in fact?
I like to think not, I like to think not, but I think in actual fact they wouldn’t have done, no, I
think it was just going to be laid down.
[End of F3120 Side B]
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Tape 3 [F3121] Side A (part 5)
And just before we move off the first company you were with, did it do things like try and
draw the staff together at certain times, for example Christmas? Was there a sort of policy of
making people identify with the company, particularly since it was relatively small?
I think we all did quite naturally. I mean we had I remember one party. Actually I can't
remember which play it was we went to, but we all went to a play one night with our wives,
or girlfriends, or whatever, twenty-five of us and the other halves, and it was a marvellous
occasion, and then we had a sort of buffet dinner somewhere nearby afterwards, and it was...
They took...I mean I don't think that things had to be planned, they just happened because
everyone wanted to, you know, it was that sort of situation.
Right. And did you meet up with people you knew from school or wherever in other parts of
the City? Were you meeting other people socially?
Well my friends, most of them went into the services, then they, some of them went to
university, the more intelligent ones. But I was two years really ahead of my contemporaries,
because having failed my Army medical, you know, I went straight in the City.
Right. And presumably when you first joined Jessels you were living at home with your
parents were you?
When I first joined Jessels I lived at 33 Eaton Terrace, and my parents had a room at the top
of the house with some extremely nice people called Digby-Jones, Philip and Maureen
Digby-Jones, and I had a room there for about six months. Then I went to live with some
friends of mine, some cousins of mine called Woodall in Hampstead, in a place called Elm
Row, and I must have been there for a year, and after that I shared a flat with three or four
chums that one was at school with. So I really sort of, was in the City two years ahead of my
contemporaries.
And when you got to the point when you were sharing a house, were you leading quite a
bohemian life, or not?
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Well, bohemian, I don’t think that’s quite the right word. We were...I mean our lives were
really quite measured; we had very little money, very little money, and we wouldn't go out
every night, I mean we just simply couldn't afford to, so the television came into our lives a
bit. And we would play games quite a lot in the evenings, I mean I played squash once a
week with one particular person; I probably played squash two or three times a week. And it
was a fairly predictable and measured life really.
Did you cook?
We cooked, but it was tinned, it was heating up tinned food really.
And what about things like laundry, who did that?
Laundry one took home, I took it home to the parents in Oxfordshire most weekends, and if I
didn’t go there for three weekends it was, you know, I was probably not the sort of person
one wanted to be close to. But it was the parents did the washing, yes, I used to do it through
them.
And was your father very glad that you had gone into the City? Did it encourage things
between you?
He was very glad that I wanted to go in the City; I think he was concerned that I wouldn’t
make it. No, he was certainly glad I wanted to go into the City, and I had marvellous talks
with him about it all, and I learnt a great deal from him. And I mean the two people who
helped me most over sort of developing a City career were definitely my father and Dick
Jessel; Dick Jessel took immense trouble.
And do you think you picked up ethics from them? I mean can you pin down what they taught
you?
Oh, I think from both my parents, they were very high principled. Very amusing people,
quite religious, very high principled; there was absolutely a very clear line between right and
wrong, and I think that was instilled into one pretty early on.
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And when you went home at this stage at the weekend, would you talk to your father in detail
about work, or would it just be general, what's happening in the City sort of stories?
Well I would ask him to explain certain things to me, yes, that I didn’t understand, the detail
of, whether it be a Treasury bill tender, or whatever, and he was invariably very well
informed and you know, explained what had happened in various circumstances.
And were you hurt that you hadn't been asked to join the family bank?
It never entered my head that anyone would ask me to do anything, so I wasn’t hurt, no. I
mean I wasn’t surprised, it didn’t worry me, it was I think you know probably from their
point of view, at that stage, it was quite a sensible decision.
And did you fall in love with anybody at this point in your life?
Fall in love with anybody? I think I probably might have got married three times up to the
sort of age of thirty.
Did you actually get round to proposing?
Pretty close to it.
And then you thought, oh my God! I don’t want to do this, or you thought she would say no?
No I don’t think so, it wasn't that at all, no. I think the other party involved said oh my God!
no, I don’t think this is quite on. (laughs)
And were you heartbroken?
No, I don’t think heartbroken, no; slightly put out.
So you didn’t find that you were feeling so miserable you didn’t really want to go to work or
anything? It didn’t have that kind of impact?
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Oh good heavens no. No no no, no I always wanted to go to work.
So what was it that made you decide to leave Jessels?
I think really I thought that the discount market - and as we go on this won’t sound quite as
good as it might do - I thought the discount market was a bit narrow, and I thought I had a
pretty good idea of how a discount house worked, and I wanted to branch out. And I was
offered a job by a firm called Laurie Millbank at three times my existing salary, which in
those days didn’t happen every day of the week.
When you say you were offered it, how did that happen, how did they come to you, or what
happened?
Well I knew them through going round the banks and meeting them visiting banks. There
were two people called Ronnie and Norman Halfhead who ran Laurie Millbank, and Ronnie
Halfhead ran the money business there, and he was extremely good at it. And he wanted a
number two and there wasn’t a number two in their business and he thought I was a natural
for that and a possible successor to him later on, and they were prepared to pay over the odds
to get me. And I talked to a friend of mine having lunch at the Grill & Cheese in
Throgmorton Street, a chap called Oliver Colthurst, who I had lunch with from time and I just
happened to mention it. And I said, ‘I can’t do that, can I?’ But you know, I don’t have
much capital, and I mean it’s an extremely attractive salary. And he said, ‘Well if you're
thinking of become a stockbroker, come and talk to Miles de Zoete, my senior partner.’ And
so I said fine, and I went to see Miles de Zoete, who happened to be a great friend of my
father’s, and I was actually a page at Rupert de Zoete’s, his brother’s, wedding, so you know,
there was a sort of little bit of a link, but I didn’t know Miles de Zoete well. And when I
arrived there, I went round to have tea one afternoon, or at tea time, and we were having a
cup of tea together and he said that, ‘I think that it would be a good idea if you met Martin
Wilkinson and Stamp Brooksbank’: Martin Wilkinson who was just about to become
Chairman of the Stock Exchange, and he was the number two to Miles de Zoete, and Stamp
Brooksbank was the equivalent to the chief executive really. And so I said fine, and anyway,
I talked to those three for a bit, and Martin Wilkinson said that, ‘I gather you're thinking of
coming into the Stock Exchange.’ So I said, ‘Well, it's just a thought, you know, Laurie
Millbank.’ He said, ‘Well, you know, I don’t think you should go there, you should come
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here.’ So I said, ‘You can't be serious, I mean I’ve got no qualifications at all.’ ‘Well,’ he
said, ‘no, but we think you're the sort of person who might fit in here, and we would like you
to join us, and Stamp and I will leave you to Miles and you can just talk about things like
salaries and all that sort of thing.’ And anyway, I told Miles de Zoete I had been offered ten
thousand a year by Laurie Millbank, and he said, ‘Well what we would like to do is to offer
you four thousand a year, but if it works out very well you will be a partner in two years’
time.’ So I went to de Zoete’s.
Did you discuss it with your father?
I did. And he said to me that, he said, ‘You may think this is rather an odd thing to say, but
people have always asked you, you know, politely what you do, and you’ve said I'm a bill
broker, or I’m a funny sort of banker, or something like that. Now you will have to say, I'm a
stockbroker, and every time you say it, I think you will find it hurts a bit.’ And that was
because he thought a stockbroker was like a glorified bookmaker, which is quite untrue, but
being steeped in traditional banking that was his reaction. I mean a lot of this friends were
stockbrokers, but that was his reaction.
So he didn’t really want you to do it?
I think he thought it was a pity; he thought that I could progress in the more traditional
banking world and have a chance of getting quite a long way there.
And did you slightly share his feeling about the world of stockbroking, or not?
Well, I think...yes I did a bit, I did a bit, deep down. He was absolutely right.
And did you have sleepless nights trying to make this decision, or not?
No. No I don’t have sleepless nights making decisions, I like making decisions, or taking
decisions, and I work out what I think is right and then get on with it. And quite often it isn’t
right, but, well then one gets on to the next thing and makes a better decision next time, one
hopes.
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And did your first company give you a nice send-off, even though they were upset you had
gone, or not? How did it work?
Well funnily enough they didn’t give me a very good send-off, in fact there was no send-off
at all, and I would say that all of them were very close friends, and there was a slight sort of
rift - no rift is putting it much too strongly, for about three months. And I just didn’t happen
to speak to any of them. But very shortly after that we got back to where we left off.
And are you still in touch with them?
Oh yes, all of them. All of them that are still alive, very much so.
And what happened to that company, it doesn't exist any more does it?
Jessel Toynbee, it merged with, or it took over a firm called Norman & Bennett, and then it
merged with Alexanders, and the Jessel Toynbee management ran Alexanders until recently.
So in other words the messengers you met the other day have really been with the same
company all through their careers?
Well, they came from Alexanders actually, I think actually one probably came from Norman
& Bennett, or even Gilletts, which was another firm that went into that group.
Right. And presumably career-wise it would have been madness for you to have stayed with
that company; there's no part of you that thinks, I should have stayed?
Well I had...when I was...when I had been at Jessel Toynbee for, I should think two and a half
years, and Dick Jessel said to me that I was going to be chairman in 1991, which was you
know, something to look forward to but it was a little far in the distance, but he said if you are
to be chairman you've got to have an intelligent foil, do you have any intelligent friends? So
I said I’ve got one at Oxford called Michael Todhunter, and he said, well send him up. And
Michael Todhunter joined Jessel Toynbee, and he was far more intelligent than me. I had
known him since I was virtually nought, he was a great friend, and far more intelligent than
me, and unlucky not to get a first at Oxford, and I was, you know, picking up a sprinkling of
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O levels. So there was a big divide intelligence-wise. But I was there first, and I got first run
on him, so I think I would have been all right, but...no, I think one probably has got further
because one moved.
And de Zoete is a terribly famous name, but I don’t really know much about the family or the
business background.
I think the de Zoetes were a Flemish family, and de Zoete, the original de Zoete came to
London in the sort of 1790s, that sort of time, and in 1798 the de Zoete stockbroking firm was
created. And Miles I think was the sixth son of a father de Zoete who had been senior
partner, and his son Simon, who is very senior in BZW now could well have just gone on, but
they decided the time had come, and then de Zoete’s merged, as we know.
And what was Miles like, what was his character?
Miles de Zoete, one of the most laid back people I have ever met in my life, one of the more
amusing, and utterly delightful. Very good games player. A chap called Jim Titcomb who
after Brooksbank was really the chief executive of de Zoete’s, he Miles and I interviewed a
chap called Richard Hutton to be an analyst, a textiles analyst, because we needed another
analyst of that type, and Hutton had been recommended to us, and he was Len Hutton, the
famous cricketer’s son. And at the end of the interview we said we would let Richard Hutton
know, and Titcomb said, when Hutton had disappeared he said, ‘Well, nice chap, and
probably quite good, but not for us.’ And Miles said, ‘Well, I’m afraid I disagree, he is for
us.’ And Titcomb said, ‘Why?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘he might play for England.’ And of course
Richard Hutton was a good analyst, he fitted in very well, he did play for England, in fact he
played for the rest of the world as well.
And you all went to watch.
(laughs) We watched him a bit, yes. But Miles was very keen on games; he thought games
was very important in business, and helping to mix with people.
So did you go off and play games with them?
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What, with Miles de Zoete? When I left de Zoete’s after six and a half years, which Miles
was not happy about at all - I think some of the others were quite content, but Miles was not,
between jobs I spent a week staying with Miles de Zoete just south of Edinburgh and we
played golf at Muirfield and various other places every day. So we were very good friends,
and yes, to answer your question I played golf with Miles quite a bit.
But while you were actually there, at weekends and things?
When I was there, no, not so much at weekends. When I went on a business trip to Australia,
and he happened to be there as well, he was very keen that I, not cancelled meetings, shall I
say altered my schedule, to fit in with his golfing plans!
And, when did you actually join de Zoete?
I joined de Zoete’s in 1964.
And presumably, firstly it's doing a different job, but secondly it would have a different kind
of energy and way of being run than the company you had been with already?
Yes, and one was acting as a broker as opposed to a principal, and that is very different,
earning a commission.
Can you give me a little thumb-nail sketch of the company? [break in recording] Could you
actually describe that company?
Sorry...?
We were talking about the contrast between de Zoete’s and Jessels.
Well, de Zoete’s was very much bigger, and as I say the business was earning commission.
And we were pretty advanced in the research side of stockbroking, and with Miles de Zoete
as a senior partner, who was much respected as a human being, not as a stockbroker but as a
human being, he was considered a splendid individual, and his foil, Martin Wilkinson, who
was also as I said Chairman of the Stock Exchange, they were highly respected as a duo, and
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therefore it was relatively easy for someone like myself to get business on the back of the
name of de Zoete & Gorton, later de Zoete & Bevan, because of Miles and Martin. And the
sort of business we were looking for was from the larger institutions, and you know, the
traditional stockbroking business, either equities or gilts.
And where was de Zoete, where were its offices?
We were in 25 Finsbury Circus.
And that again must have been quite different from Jessels.
It was. It was, compared to Jessels it was almost in the suburbs, although it was still only
about three hundred yards from the Bank of England.
And was it a much bigger company?
It was much bigger, yes, there were 300 of us in de Zoete’s.
So was that quite hard to adjust to?
Not really, no. No, it was...it was a new world. I found it very difficult to start with; I went
through the general office and did all the various jobs there for three or four days each, and
there was quite a sharp individual called Mr Coin[ph], and he was in charge of the contracts
department, and when I left de Zoete’s he said that he was very sad I was going, but he had
got just one thought as I walked out of the door, he said, ‘You know, you are easily the worst
contract clerk I have ever come across in the City.’ I thought that was rather a compliment.
I was going to say, it sounds quite an achievement! (RG laughing) And how much
understanding did you have of stockbroking when you began, because you were also coming
in not as a beginner any more, because you had had that experience in the City.
Well I think that was a problem, because I came in as a potential partner I suppose, and that
didn't go down terribly well with the twenty or thirty people who might have become a
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partner in the next two or three years. Everyone else was, you know, pretty relaxed about my
arrival, if they even noticed that I had arrived.
How many partners were there?
Eighteen.
But were you having to pretend you knew more? I mean it seems very difficult to me to just
suddenly become a stockbroker at that sort of level.
Funnily enough I was taken on, they thought I should be in the gilt-edged side because that
was, you know, obviously a part of the discount house business, but gilt-edged business
didn’t really interest me, and I was...I thought the only way I could possibly carve a niche
was to specialise in discount house shares, because I knew the management obviously of all
the discount houses. And there was a firm called Montagu Loebl who did a sort of annual
review of discount houses and they were the sort of leaders in making, well doing business in
the shares, and the competition to Montagu Loebl was really almost negligible, probably
because it was a pretty small sector of the market, in fact a very small sector. But I thought
that I could carve out a little bit of a niche there, and very much encouraged funnily enough
by Jim Titcomb, who was head of research at that time. He said, ‘I will find you an analyst
who will help you write a glossy brochure, but I really think you must do it, and from that
you will be able to do, if the business in discount houses is a bit thin, and a bit sparse, it can
lead into doing business in Barclays and Midland, and clearing bank shares.’ And I think that
within about three years, and when we produced a brochure in 1966, a wonderful grey glossy
brochure which I was very proud of, though the maroon model came in 1969, they were
appreciated apparently, and we did quite a lot of business, and it did lead into other things,
and it was really a very satisfactory exercise. So I specialised in that, and when I was having
lunch with one of my colleagues he said that...he looked after the Australian business, and his
wife wasn't that keen on travelling in the next year or two for various reasons, and who on
earth could take over the Australian side of the business, because he really wanted to give it
up. So I said well I would if he could fix it with the bosses, because my father was Chairman
of the Australia & New Zealand Bank for twenty years, he was Chairman of the London
board of the Australian Mutual Provident Society and he was Chairman of the Australian
Pastoral Company, because they had lived in Australia for the first five years of their married
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life and were frequent visitors to Australia. So I knew a lot of Australian people through
them, and it was a wonderful opportunity for me, so what I really did in the main was to run
the small tiny Australian business we had, and also specialise in discount house shares.
And how competitive was it? How much pressure was there on you to make money, to keep it
coming in?
I think there was a lot of pressure, considering I was thought to be an amateur amongst
professionals, and I think that there was quite a lot of pressure to perform, but thanks to a lot
of contacts who one took a lot of trouble about, I didn’t always produce winners, particularly
from the Australian mining...from amongst the Australian mining stocks, but we produced
some winners, and some very good winners, but also some terrible little losers, but luckily the
losers were the small speculative ones and the really successful companies were Western
Mining, and BHP, and we were very right about that, and that worked very well.
And within the City, when you were building up clients, how did you go about it? I mean
would there have been meetings, lunches? How long would it take to get the client?
A long long time. People were very receptive to almost cold telephone calls; I mean they
knew you came from de Zoete’s and they were prepared to listen, but they weren't going to
give you any business until they thought that you had something to offer them, and it did take
a long time to build up. I mean I think it took me two years really to make any impression at
all. No, that's untrue, I suppose a year, maybe fifteen months, because I was made a partner
after eighteen months because I was partly on commission and it became a bit expensive for
them, so I obviously did make an impression after a year, but the first year was very very
hard slog.
And did you consider going off and becoming a dairy farmer instead or anything?
Certainly not, no. No, because I wanted my home comforts, and I needed to make some
money.
Where were you living by this stage?
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By this stage I was living...well I lived in a flat from ’57 to ’61, 45 Pont Street, with a fellow
called Peter Hill-Wood, who is now one of the vice-chairmen of Hambros Bank, Val
Fleming, who is a senior director of Fleming’s and married to my sister, and...who else was
there? Robin Denison-Pender, who married...and Robin was a stockbroker with Gerrard
Vivyan Gray, and he married Val Fleming's sister. And one or two others, like Mark
Nickerson, who was in Pinchin Denny and then Morgan Grenfell and now Hambros, and
Roger Wellersley-Smith who was also a senior chap in Pinchin Denny, a cousin of mine
called Jeremy Gibbs from Southern Rhodesia. We had a variety of people, a chap called
William Martineau who was in the Golden Syrup business, the sugar business, and various
other people.
And by this stage you weren't so impoverished. Were you having a racier social life?
I think we were...I think we all sort of progressed, that batch of people, at the same sort of
pace, and I would think.....[break in recording] No I said from ’57 to ’61. After 1961 I went
with Robin Denison-Pender and Peter Hill-Wood to live in someone called Ben Colman's
house in Cheyne Walk, Cheyne Row, Cheyne Row, and that was very comfortable, but I was
there slightly on sufferance because Ben was only wanting two of us and he very kindly put
up with me for, I suppose it must have been eighteen months or two years. Then I bought a
house next to a pub, and the only reason I bought it next to a pub was that it was very much
cheaper than it would otherwise have been, that was in Milner Street next door to the
Australian pub which is probably one of the noisiest in the West End. And that was done on
borrowed money and...
Why did you buy it?
Why did I buy it?
Why did you buy a property, not necessarily that one?
I bought a property because I was going to need a base for the long term, and I thought that
was a prudent thing to do. I mean inflation in those days was only three or four per cent per
annum, but interest rates were relatively low, and it seemed a sensible thing to do for the long
term. Because I might get married, and I wanted to have a...establish my own home. There
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was the possibility of a little bit of furniture from my parents and my grandmother, and you
know, one wanted to have one's own base. But you asked, you know, when one was better
off what happened. I think I can safely say in 1964 I wasn't better off. I gradually got much
better paid in the late Sixties, and by the time I left de Zoete’s in 1971 I think I can safely say
I was very much over-paid, and all relatively successful stockbrokers were over-paid at that
stage.
And do you think that was a very bad thing?
I think it was bad for the Stock Exchange, and that is why certain things have happened in the
London Stock Exchange in the 1980s and on. Commissions were too high; commissions
were at the right level to sustain the least effective two and a half thousand members of the
Stock Exchange, and far too high for the most effective two and a half thousand, and there
were several votes on commissions and the like in the Stock Exchange, and the less able
people I think, you know, rather dominated the scene, and it was very sad for the Stock
Exchange. I mean it was very nice for me at the time, but it was wrong.
[End of F3121 Side A]
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Tape 3 [F3121] Side B (part 6)
Did you throughout this time feel that you were doing something slightly, not quite
respectable, as your father had said? Was that made worse by feeling you were also overpaid?
I felt one was over-paid, but I was grateful for that. I thought one was doing quite a useful
job, but it wasn't sort of inwardly rewarding, and I think that's why one moved on.
And what was your first impression of the Stock Exchange itself, and working with it?
At the Stock Exchange as an entity? I really didn't get that involved in it; I mean we heard a
bit about it from Martin Wilkinson but I mean he was running it, and as we knew he ran the
firm with Miles de Zoete extremely effectively and presumably the Stock Exchange was run
on roughly the same lines. I don’t think one really got very involved in that.
Right. And we’ve been talking about the Sixties, I mean people get very nostalgic and
romantic about the 1960s, what were the Sixties to you as an era?
The Sixties to me, I had enormous fun, and I suppose one had even more fun in the late
Sixties when one was better paid. I also I think was very lucky in the late Sixties that I went
on business trips to Australia and went round all the mining areas and things like that. I mean
I had a thrilling time.
But what sort of fun were you having? I mean were you...presumably you weren’t sitting
cross-legged at pop concerts.
No. I was playing games almost the whole time, golf a bit, tennis a lot, cricket a bit, and
tennis to the sort of top village level, cricket the same sort of standard, and then real tennis I
played a lot of at Lord's and got sort of adequate at that, and the Cresta Run, I spent a lot of
time there.
And when you bought your house were you living there on your own?
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No, Peter Hill-Wood came to join me, and the two of us lived there, and some old friends
called Tom and Anne Ruck Keene, they had a small sort of arrangement, a bath and a
bedroom at the top of the house.
But also, London in the Sixties was full of people going to restaurants and that sort of thing.
Were you doing that sort of thing, were you living a London life in that sense?
Yes, we did do quite a lot of that, you know, taking girls out to dinner, and that went on quite
a bit. I think my most satisfactory deal in the Sixties was a very good restaurant called
Wolfe's in Abingdon Road I think it was, in Kensington, and they had very good wine that
wasn't that expensive, and I'm talking about, you know, sort of ’55 clarets, I mean the real,
the best stuff. And very sadly got a thing through the post one morning, and we didn’t go to
the office that early in those days and the post was late, and Peter Hill-Wood and I discussed
a similar thing that we both had, which was a list of wine from the Wolfe’s restaurant that
was closing down. And we went through it, and so...it said on the thing, ‘Open nine o’clock,
selling everything at the following prices.’ So, when I got to the office at about ten to nine, I
dialled Wolfe’s number, no reply, so I just let it go on ringing, and on the dot of nine o’clock
someone answered, and I said it's Mr Gibbs, I'm ringing up regarding the claret and the
burgundy that you are selling. And he said, ‘What are you interested in?’ I said, ‘I'm
interested in the claret.’ And he said, ‘Well what would you like to buy?’ I said, ‘I would
like to buy all of it.’ ‘But,’ he said, ‘that is £660.’ So I said, ‘I would like to buy all of it, and
when do I collect it?’ And I mean he simply couldn’t believe it. And Peter Hill-Wood and I
went round, and we collected it in, I think we took two car loads of this wine, and it was the
best buy I have ever made in my life.
This is David Wolfe presumably?
It's...?
David and Mary Wolfe?
Well it might have been, I don’t know.
Was he a very fat man?
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I can’t remember, but the food was very good. The thing I remember most about it was first
of all the claret, but also the rare fillet steaks au poivre. Delicious, absolutely delicious. It
was a real tragedy that it closed down. But anyway we got this wonderful wine, which stood
us in very good stead. You know, I remember there were five bottles of Chateau Batailley
’55, I mean you couldn’t possibly drink anything more delicious.
And were you ever lonely?
I don’t think I ever was lonely. I mean obviously on occasions, but...no. Relatively selfsufficient, always amused by what was going on in whatever activity one was involved in,
and many that one wasn’t. No, I don’t think I was lonely, I think I was extraordinarily happy.
And at this point were you seeing a lot of your brothers and your sister?
We’ve always kept very closely in touch. My brother David, until the middle Sixties, well he
was born in Australia and came back here when he was only about five, four or five, but then
went back to Australia from the age of twenty-one to twenty-seven, or twenty-eight, and then
was back here for seven years, so I mean during the early Sixties to late Sixties he was in
London and very much a kindred spirit. Stephen was also, he was working in Port Line
Shipping for a bit, he was the London manager of that, and then he became the Chief
Executive of Charles Barker, doing financial public relations. Julian worked in Anthony
Gibbs and was very successful on the insurance side of that; he was also in London.
Christopher was the one who had a slightly bumpy start, and invalided out of the Army after
a fortnight; he had polio earlier on but recovered from that very well but he had a weak
shoulder or something, anyway they didn't want him in the Army, and he came out and he
worked in Knight Frank & Rutley for a bit, and then set up his own antique business in
Camden Passage at Islington, and that was always a bit of a problem in those days. He
wasn’t terribly good on the cash side of things, although he had a marvellous flair for works
of art. But that wasn’t obvious to us, and it wasn’t I think obvious to many people; it was a
pretty narrow field that appreciated him. So, I funnily enough, I became Chairman of
his...not exactly large firm at one particular stage, which was very enjoyable, so I saw quite a
lot of Christopher. And Elizabeth was always very much around, and she being very keen on
tennis I used to play a lot of tennis with her. But all of us were very close, as someone in the
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City the other day, when there was an article about one of my brothers that wasn’t
particularly polite, and he referred to it and said, ‘Well everyone knows that the Gibbses are
particularly glutinous’, and I think that’s probably right, we do all stick together.
Oh I see. And, did your father cope with retirement well, did he have a long retirement?
He didn’t really have a long retirement. He was someone who worked really all the time. He
worked or pottered round the garden; he was very keen on gardening, but in the latter days he
didn’t do much gardening and he just pottered round. He did quite a lot of reading. But he
was always being asked his opinion, you know, sorting out people’s problems, whether it was
relations who had got money troubles, or you know, couldn’t...didn't know what to do about
planning their career, or... He was always being offered...asked his opinion. He was a man
of enormous common sense, a lot of charm too but enormous common sense, totally
unflappable.
And, going back to de Zoete & Gorton...it wasn’t de Zoete and Bevan was it.
Gorton.
Yes.
It was de Zoete & Gorton until ’71 and then it was de Zoete & Bevan.
The two men you speak of as running it together, Miles and Martin, could you define what
each of their roles was? Did they have different talents that complemented one another?
Could you...?
I think that those days Martin Wilkinson was as good a chief executive as any firm could
possibly have. Very astute, very bright, very quick, and he was a sort of good draughtsman.
I mean he was a...he could plan anything, and put it over very succinctly. He was a very
good chairman of a meeting. And Miles was, as I said the most delightful person who
everyone adored, and he was the ideal foil for Martin Wilkinson. Miles used to get enormous
business, and it wasn't because of his technical ability, it was because people liked talking to
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him, they liked being with him. And anything that Miles did he was extremely efficient, but
he wasn’t an academic.
Right. So in other words, if he hadn't been a member of that family he might not ever have
come into stockbroking or the City, he might have gone and done something quite other
really.
Yes, he would have been a farmer I think, he would have been in...he loved the country, he
loved the country.
And, how would you describe de Zoete’s at that stage, if you had to differentiate it from any
other stockbroker.
Stockbroker? The real professionals of the stockbroking world, I would say at that stage,
were Sebags with Phillips & Drew coming up. The amateurs who were incredibly
professional underneath were Cazenoves...when I say amateurs, they weren't amateurs at all,
they were professionals, but there was an amateur charm about them, and that was Cazenoves
and Rowe & Pitman. But they were as good, if not better than Seebags and Phillips & Drew.
And Sebags slipped gradually through the Seventies and then disappeared.
Why did they slip, do you know?
I think that their top management was exceptionally good, and as far as I remember there was
someone called Robin Muir who was very key to the whole set-up, and he died very young
and...he got cancer and died I think, and that was a bitter blow to the whole set-up, and it
never really recovered from that; in fact it slipped from that point. I may be a bit premature
about Phillips & Drew but they certainly became the professionals of the market then, or later
on. And the interesting thing is that one of the most successful stockbrokers throughout the
last thirty or forty years when I’ve known about the City is undoubtedly Cazenoves, and it’s a
firm now, even now of the very highest quality, and Rowe & Pitman is within the Warburg
Group and they’re very good too.
But I still don’t know quite what was distinctive about de Zoete.
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What was distinct about de Zoete, sorry, the question was, where do they fit in. de Zoete I
would say was an extremely good firm; it didn’t quite have the cachet of Rowe & Pitman, or
Cazenoves, although everyone knew that over the longer term it would be up there with them
both. The fact that it never quite made it I think possibly is due to Martin Wilkinson and
Miles de Zoete not being younger than they were. I think if they had been running the firm
for another five years I’m sure it would have been right up there, but then it was the more
professional generation, the Titcombs, the Sinclairs of this world, who were very good, but
they were not quite the Cazenove, Rowe & Pitman connections, I mean I think it was as
simple as that. And I don't think...and the firm did very well indeed, but it didn't quite make
the top I don’t think.
And did it become de Zoete Bevan while you were there?
Yes.
And what difference did that make? Why did it happen?
That happened, in fact I was partly involved in that. A fellow called Christopher Berens, who
was in Bevans, he and I were having dinner together one night, and we were discussing our
two firms and it became blatantly obvious to us that Bevans had marvellous connections with
the large industrial, the large commercial companies in Britain, and the connections that de
Zoete’s had were really quite limited and not in the same league. But de Zoete’s had much
better traditional institutional business than Bevans did, and they also had a marvellous local
authority business, and therefore the two together would look pretty sensible. And at that
time we were being wooed by Laurie Millbank, and that never was going to really jell.
Although it was announced for a period of nine months that advance talks were taking place,
which could lead to a merger, the merger never happened. And just after that period I talked
to Miles de Zoete and Martin Wilkinson about it, and I can't pretend it was just my idea, I’m
sure they had been thinking about it as well, but anyway it happened, and no merger could
have gone more smoothly, because both sides had so much to offer.
How many staff came from Bevans?
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I don’t know, I think that, say we were 280 and they were 140, and quite a lot of people
retired who wanted to. I mean there were no redundancies as such, but I think seventy or
eighty people probably retired at that time, and I should think we were about 350 in all when
we got together.
So did you move into a new building then?
We moved into the twelfth floor of the new Stock Exchange building, and we kept 25
Finsbury Circus. They gave up Southsea House, which is at the sort of top of Threadneedle
Street, so we still had two offices.
And what was it like working in the Stock Exchange building?
Well, to be absolutely frank, I think if you had asked us all after the first week we would have
said we felt like battery hens compared to our previous situation, and it was a bit like that.
But it's like the big dealing rooms now, and it’s all round a central core, and we had half of
the space round a central core as the dealing room, so you couldn't actually see the gilt-edged
side, it was round the bend.
And, presumably this was Timothy Bevan coming in was it?
No, it was not Timothy Bevan, he was in Barclays. It was Johnny Bevan, Colonel Johnny
Bevan, and he was the senior partner of Bevans, and amazingly his niece Elizabeth was
married to Miles de Zoete, so it was all very tidy.
She was married to him before this happened?
Oh yes, many many years before.
Right. And, what was Bevan's approach? I mean was it different?
I think Bevans...Bevans were very professional. I don’t think they were quite as aggressive
as we were, and we were, you know, I think not considered to be very aggressive, but we
were always pushing, you know, looking for new business the whole time. I don't think they
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were; I think they were resting a little bit on the marvellous contacts that they had: they could
afford to do so, they did very well by doing that, so why have a lot of aggro when it's not
necessary? But we were always wanting to drive on, and there was someone called Jocelyn
Abel Smith who was the third senior partner really with Miles and Martin going back further,
and he ran the local authority side and he was always pushing people on, and I think his
influence was very important. And I remember he was aiming for the year when we took a
million pounds in commission, and I suppose that happened in something like 1969, but sadly
he died in 1968 so he never saw it, but it was...he was pushing us the whole time.
And did the atmosphere of the office change when it got bigger? Did you lose anything?
Yes, it wasn’t so much fun.
And did anybody find themselves unable to cope with the new firm? Was there any problem
for people afterwards?
I think that there were some people, I mean I can remember several actually who decided to
stay on for the merger but eighteen months later they had retired, it wasn’t their scene. It was
all too regimented for them, it became a much tighter, well organised, better organised ship
quite honestly.
So did your own role change, did your life alter?
My life didn’t alter very much because I was considered to be a slight sort of one-off
situation, someone who wasn’t so-called technically endowed, but seemed to get quite a lot of
business.
So can you just give me briefly a typical day when you were in the City when you weren’t
travelling, what sort of hours were you working and how would you have spent your time?
Well, when I was involved in the Australian side it was a very odd life really, because I used
to, with Australia usually nine hours ahead for most of the year, or Melbourne and Sydney
were nine hours ahead, I used to ring up Melbourne and Sydney and talk to them at midnight
before I went to bed, and then again at probably seven in the morning, quarter to seven I
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would ring them again. And then go off to the office, get there I suppose about 8.30 and talk
to the institutions about what had been going on in Australia that night. And it was a very
active period between ’67 and ’71 when I left, and it was terribly exciting at times. I mean I
remember one night, I mean it’s almost unbelievable to go to bed one night with Poseidon,
the shooting star of that particular moment at £59, and ringing up the next morning and it was
£84. I mean that is a £25 rise overnight. It was an unbelievable world. And of course the
rise was totally unjustified, shares went from a few shillings to £124 and came back to £3, all
in the period of just two years. But that was the sort of thing I was doing, and I was doing my
discount house shares as well, and talking to institutions throughout the day.
By phone?
Telephone the whole time.
So by this stage visiting institutions had really disappeared?
It was fading. We used to, when I first went to de Zoete’s, I mean I used to go and visit
Lazards once a week, once a fortnight, and the senior partners they used to visit institutions
like that on a regular basis. And I worked in Fleming’s as a part of my training for five
months at one stage and you know, senior stockbrokers used to drop in two or three a day,
just to have a word with some fund manager or other. It was all a very leisurely pace.
And at the de Zoete Bevan stage, were you involved in business lunches every day, was that
part of it?
I was involved in business lunches to a degree. I used to go out...what I liked doing was
taking one person out to lunch, and one of my favourite places was Gow’s near Liverpool
Street Station, and there was one particular friend at Fleming’s called Hugh Spens, he and I
used to go out, well certainly once a month, probably more often, go and have a haddock and
a poached egg at the top of Gow’s. Very nice, and used to do quite a lot of business together.
And did you also have to attend City functions in the evenings by this stage? Was it taking up
quite a lot of time in that way?
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That wasn't; one wasn’t in that world. But on the lunches, there were set lunches in the office
and I would be asked I suppose about once a week, maybe twice a week. But they were quite
formal and you know, sort of...a bit ponderous I always found really.
And when you were asked, it essentially meant you had jolly well got to be there, or was it
actually...?
Certainly.
Right.
No no, there was no question, you were there! You were there.
And would you be quite clear what your role was at that lunch? Were you supposed to come
out with certain things, or was it not so planned?
I think...yes, my role would be interest rates, talk about interest rates, and...I think interest
rates and sport probably, you know, to keep the thing going, that was one of my roles.
But it wouldn't be rehearsed in any way?
Oh no no no, absolutely not.
And, when you say that somewhere in your heart you knew it wasn’t very fulfilling, how big a
part was that?
Oh I think it was quite a small part. It was only a factor if one was going to...I mean
occasionally one thought that one day one would be taking a pension or whatever and
retiring, and the only time I ever thought that it was slightly unrewarding, inwardly
unrewarding, was when I was thinking in terms of, well in thirty years’ time when I look
back, I mean have I actually had a worthwhile working life? And I think my view was that,
to a degree but not wholly.
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And were you at all worried that your life was so bound up with money that you went to sleep
having just talked about money with someone and you woke up and you immediately talked
about money? Did that matter?
I think it does matter, I think it’s...I think that has been one of the...I think that has always
been a slight problem. If you are in business, you know, you get so wrapped up in it and it’s
terribly important most of the time, and I should think, you know, there are golfing bores but
there are certainly business bores, and one has to watch out for that.
But you didn’t find it sort of morally upsetting at all?
No. No not at all.
And did you mind that work came home with you in the sense that you were making calls at
midnight and seven in the morning?
Not at all. I mean there are those who say, even nowadays, that you know, that when I go on
holiday I, you know, take my files with me. Well that is true to a degree too, I do quite a lot
of catching up of things when one is on holiday. Yes, I’m surrounded by files at home, I
mean I won’t show you downstairs but I mean it’s an absolute...it’s...well, an amazing
amount of filing cabinets and things. But I enjoy it, I mean you know, it's no effort, and I
enjoy it, I find it stimulating. Try to keep on top of, you know, a lot of different things.
And, so what were the build-ups that made you start thinking to leave then? Why did you...?
To leave de Zoete’s?
Yes.
I never thought I would leave Jessel Toynbee and I certainly never thought I would leave de
Zoete’s, but Kenneth Whitaker, who ran Gerrard & Reid, one of the smaller discount houses
which had just done a sort of reverse takeover of National Discount who were one of the
larger houses and gone through a long period of, well bad luck apart from anything else,
Gerrards were very much in charge in this merger, but they were short of so-called top
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management, and Kenneth Whitaker and his colleagues were looking round for someone who
had been in the discount market preferably and had had experience outside the discount
market, and I think I was possibly the only person who existed who, you know, fitted the bill.
[End of F3121 Side B]
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C409/086 Tape 4 Side A (part 7)
Tape 4 [F3122] Side A (part 7)
And how did they find you?
How did they find me? Well they knew, I mean Kenneth Whitaker knew of me, but
didn't know me, but the other people in the firm, they knew me. And I was asked to
lunch, and Kenneth Whitaker said half-way through lunch, we’re looking for, you
know, a thirty-five-year-old who is this that and the other, and going through what he
was really looking for, and quite obviously I was the only candidate around, and one
of my more, well shall we say less reticent colleagues at Gerrards, Henry Askew, said,
‘Go on Kenneth, offer him the job,’ and absolutely blew the gaff. So I was offered
the job, and I turned it down for about six months, and then they came back and back,
and in the end I decided to change.
Why did you turn it down?
Well I was very happy you see at de Zoete’s, and as I say I was grossly over-paid, and
I had a very interesting time, and although it wasn't inwardly rewarding it did enable
me to live reasonably well. And going to Gerrards it would mean taking a very
substantial cut in income; in fact my, I won’t go into the figures but my salary in my
first year at Gerrards was exactly twenty-five per cent of my salary in my last year at
de Zoete’s.
And did they realise that? They must have done.
They did.
So why would they have expected you to join them?
Because they possibly thought I was quite ambitious, and there was an opening there,
and it was possible that in a few years’ time I might have become chairman of Gerrard
& National.
And was that made clear to you?
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It was made clear to me that it was a possibility; it was made equally clear it was not a
stone cold certainty. And when I arrived there I think my arrival didn’t go down
frightfully well with some people.
Who were hoping to be chairman themselves?
Yes.
And did they take that out on you personally?
No, they happened to be friends anyway, so I mean it was a slightly odd situation, but
I think it made us all slightly more competitive possibly.
You haven’t really talked much about ambition. I mean you’ve talked about wanting
a certain income for creature comforts, that’s not quite the same as being very
ambitious. I mean you had already attained your creature comforts, so what is this
other...?
Well I think regarding ambition, I always thought the National Discount, which was
the second largest discount house second to the Union, I always thought it could be
run in a different way and a more effective way. And I had always wanted to run the
National Discount, and I knew perfectly well there was no possible chance of it, but I
had always, you know, thought that is the ideal job for me, and that is really why I
think I accepted to go to Gerrard & National.
So you had a vision of it being something different. What did you think was wrong
with the National?
I thought that the National was a little bit too sleepy, it hadn't moved with the times,
and it had a strong position in the market place and it certainly didn't take advantage
of that, and it was just slipping unnecessarily. And the attraction of Gerrard &
National was that Gerrard & Reid was a very well run little company, and trying to
make the two work together and become a large effective entity was something that
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appealed to me enormously. And Kenneth Whittaker and his colleagues had made
enormous strides; they had got through the merger and you know, they had used up all
their tax losses and the profits were improving, and they had got the thing set in the
right direction, and it was really just the opportunity to build on what Kenneth
Whittaker had achieved.
When had the merger happened? When did the merger happen?
The merger happened in July 1969, and I joined in June 1971.
Right. And where were they by this stage, where were the offices?
They were in 32 Lombard Street, and some people said the only reason I accepted the
job was that there was a car space under the office.
And was that true?
Not entirely.
And you mentioned Henry Askew, when did he come into your life, when did you first
meet him?
I really met Henry at Gerrards when I...I mean I knew him vaguely, we had met in the
street and that sort of thing, but...we knew of each other but nothing more than that.
But I immediately got to know Henry Askew in 1971 very well, and the main reason I
think was that, we’re not similar characters at all, but we had one particular interest
that kept us very close together for the next, well, still does, he and I derived
enormous pleasure from running the day to day money book, and being fascinated by
things like Treasury bill tenders and movements in interest rates and things like that; I
mean it was just something that fascinated both of us. I funnily enough was possibly
more technically able at that very narrow field than Henry was, but Henry had much
more flair than I did. I had a bit, I mean I had a sort of a bit of native cunning and a
bit of sort of ability to make money and read markets reasonably well, but he had
uncanny flair, uncanny flair.
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Can you give me an example?
Well, you would have a situation where there was no possible reason for interest rates
to come down, and he would say they're going to come down within two weeks, and
we all knew perfectly well they couldn't come down; there was no possible logic to
them coming down. But then suddenly three days later the Bank of England made
some amazing announcement that transforms the whole situation, and it’s obvious
they’re going to come down. Now he had no knowledge of what the Bank of England
were going to do, but he just felt there was something in the wind, and...
So he’s almost psychic.
Sometimes, sometimes. And there's not always a lot of logic behind his views, and
that’s not being impolite, I would say that to his face, I’ve said it many times.
And what are his qualities?
His qualities?
Apart from this extraordinary instinct, as a human being, what are his qualities?
Tremendously decisive, terrifically decisive. He lives for the minute; his memory is
not retentive, and it’s always what’s happening now and what’s going to happen in the
next day or two. He never looks back, and therefore I suppose he is an optimist by
nature. And he’s an extraordinarily attractive person to work with, because he’s so
lively, and very interested in what everyone’s thinking; he's always got his ear to the
ground and trying to evaluate, and he keeps everything relatively simple, but he really
concentrates on...he focuses.
And not looking back could be quite dangerous couldn’t it, or is it really an asset?
Well there are lots of other people who are permanently looking back surrounding
Henry Askew, so he's a very very important member of a team.
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He's also...there's a side of him that's slightly actorish isn’t there, there’s a very
distinct figure there. You wouldn’t mistake Henry for somebody else.
No you wouldn’t.
Do you think that’s a defence?
I don’t know whether it is or not. I mean I’ve seen so much of him over the years,
and I’m so used to him that I haven’t really spotted that. It may be that it’s covering
up a little nervousness, or uncertainty, I don’t know. All I do know is that the people
who work for him would follow him anywhere, because they know that something
exciting is round the corner.
And did marriage and children change him?
I think marriage, yes, his marriage has been a very happy one, and they had their third
son yesterday.
Oh right, good.
He found marriage I would think quite difficult for the first year, and has found it very
rewarding in recent years, and they’re a marvellous set-up the Askews.
And was it a shock to people that he was getting married?
I think people were amazed yes, he was not likely to... Was it a shock? It was a
major surprise, yes.
And did you therefore not think it was likely to last, or did you just...?
Oh no, it would last, because...it was very likely to last, because Henry, if he does
something he does it properly.
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Does this third son have a name?
It is unnamed at the moment, to my knowledge.
And have you been involved with his children at all?
I haven’t been that involved with them, but Jack and George I know. But I think
they’re...I think that the characteristics of both Henry and Rosie are firmly there in
both of them, in a variety of ways.
Right. And Kenneth Whitaker himself, what sort of a man was he?
Well, going on with Henry, the last time that Kenneth Whitaker came to the office,
and we got someone to drive him up from the country because he was pretty frail and
not at all well at the time, anyway the last time he came up he had lunch with Henry
and me and two other colleagues, I think possibly Archie Eglinton and Tommy
Fellowes, but I can’t actually remember for certain if they were there as well. And the
lunch was a little bit of a strain really because Kenneth was not his old self, and Henry
said to him, ‘Now Kenneth, you know, in twenty years’ time when you have slipped
off the perch, what do you think...how do you think people will remember you in the
City?’ And Kenneth said, ‘Well of course they won’t remember me.’ Anyway, to cut
a long story short Henry said, ‘Well let’s assume they do remember you, how do you
think they will?’ And Kenneth said, ‘I’ve no idea.’ And Henry said, ‘I'll tell you.
They’ll remember you as a fearful old rogue.’ And Kenneth Whitaker said, ‘Oh I
rather like that.’ And he wasn’t a fearful old rogue; he was an amazing go-getting
individual. He was really an entrepreneur; he was not a pure bill broker, he was not
that knowledgeable funnily enough about bill broking, but he had market nose and he
was brave, and he taught us to have a real go when you think it’s right, and if you’re
uncertain just wait, just leave it alone. And he always said, you know, the way to run
a firm, run a discount house, is to do precious little for most of the time, but every five
years back up the truck, and that was always what he was talking about, backing up
the truck, or bashing on. He was a sort of...he was an extraordinary man, and he
believed, in his own words, that you couldn’t run a car without petrol, and he
therefore was very keen on champagne, and it had to be vintage champagne, and it
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had to be Haig whisky; nothing else came into his life, but he was pretty keen on
those two things. He had a...he was a good athlete actually, he I think played tennis
for Surrey and he played golf down to a handicap of four, but he let himself go a bit in
the latter years. I think the funniest photograph I ever saw of Kenneth Whitaker was
when he was five as a fairy in Iolanthe, and he looked very different from what he did
when he was our chairman. (laughs)
Did he have a family life, or not?
He did, absolutely. The most wonderful wife, Mollie, and then a son Barry and
daughter Wendy, and a lovely house at Tilford in Surrey, a beautiful place. But he
was, you know, he was very interested in racing, very interested in pictures, had a
wonderful collection of pictures, Dutch paintings played a major part in that. He was
a bit of a hoarder, a bit of a squirrel I think, but...
A hoarder of what?
Well of pictures, and good things, and...when I say he was a hoarder, I think really
only of pictures, but he had a lot of good pictures, a lot of good pictures. But he was
the most wonderful teller of stories. I mean I couldn’t possibly repeat any of them,
because it was the way he told them, he was...and the way he used his hands, and he
would snort away with an amazing sort of [RG makes snorting sound] going on the
whole time, and punctuating his remarks. But he was an actor.
And he was a giggler?
He was a chortler, a chortler.
And do you know anything about his background?
No, very little about his background. He was extremely secretive about his
background, and I don't really know why. I don’t know about his background, but he
was a born dealer, I would say.
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And somebody said he had the nickname of ‘Black Pearl’.
The Black Pearl.
Why was that?
I don’t know where that came from, but he was known as the Black Pearl.
I mean would you refer to him all the time as that, or it was just occasional?
Well funnily enough his wife Mollie always called him Whitaker, he was known as
Whitaker by everyone. The Black Pearl, he was known in the old days by certain
people as the Black Pearl; I suppose, you know, unique, he was certainly unique.
And he must have been crucial in establishing the character of Gerrard & National.
He established the character of Gerrard & National, and we carried it on. It was he
who established it, yes.
And having said that, what did he establish, what was that character that he brought
to it?
He was very happy that the Bank of England should be of the view that Gerrard &
Reid were always giving it a go, or Gerrard & National later was always giving it a
go, and probably slightly over trading. We weren’t allowed to go beyond certain
measurements laid down by the Bank of England, but he used to tweak the Bank of
England quite a lot. And he wanted everyone to know that he was prepared to take
anyone on in the market place. And of course he couldn’t because we weren’t large
enough, but he had a pretty good go on many occasions.
And when you had decided to go, to join them, was that a hard decision? Did you
almost not? How close was it?
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Well it was quite a marginal decision because I liked the people at de Zoete so much,
and I happened to be, you know, going through a reasonable run at that business. So
it was starting all again, you know, and it was...that made one hesitate. But the
thought of working with Kenneth Whitaker, well actually working for Kenneth
Whitaker, was an attractive proposition.
And did de Zoete give you a proper send-off?
Oh yes, they were marvellous, yes. They, you know, once the decision had been
taken they couldn’t have been nicer about it.
So what did they do for you?
Well we had a dinner, but I think...and there were many other presents and small
parties, and office dos and things, you know; I mean nothing huge, but it was all very
nice. And as I say, that Miles de Zoete asked me to stay in Scotland for the week
between the two jobs, well that was the nicest thing of all.
And were you still living in your house by the pub at this stage, or had you moved?
I was still living in the house by the pub in June 1971, shortly to move to 23
Tregunter Road.
And did...you said you were grossly over-paid, did going down to twenty-five per cent
mean you had to be worried about money, or were you still very well-paid?
I was still well paid, so...and I had a, you know, a few reserves from the last, well the
latter part of the Sixties, and therefore one was reasonably well placed, yes.
So you had investments of your own, is that what you’re saying?
Yes, a small amount of investments of my own. And we had shares in our family
bank, Anthony Gibbs, which went public in 1972. I mean I was one of the smaller
family shareholders, but you know, that obviously helped.
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And was it upsetting when it went public? Did it feel like the family losing its
control?
Anthony Gibbs, well it was very exciting from one point of view, in that it did mean
that the shares that one had, which one had always been told were worthless, actually
had a market value, so I mean that obviously was nice. And I think it was...it was sad
in a way, but it had to happen, it couldn't just go on as the family shop; you know, it
had been going on since 1808. You either wither or, you know, make a quantum leap
forward, and this was their quantum leap. And it was at a very unfortunate time,
because they were quite sort of large in their own small way in the money markets,
and they had got the markets wrong in 1972 when interest rates firmed, and they got
them wrong again in 1973 when in a period of four months they went up from sevenand-a-half to thirteen per cent, they got caught. So they were always struggling, and
then the Hong Kong Bank took twenty per cent at quite an inflated share price, and
then they took a further twenty per cent later on, and eventually took the company
over in 1979.
And is that when the name vanished?
The name hung on for a while, but the Hong Kong Bank then thought it appropriate to
bury it.
And did you feel sad about that?
I thought that was very sad, and I thought it was a little unnecessary, but that’s only
one man’s view.
Did you write and say so, or not?
I was asked by, I think...anyway it was by the Financial Times, what I thought about
the name of Anthony Gibbs being buried on the day that it was buried, and I just said
that all good names are inclined to rise again, but it hasn’t yet.
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But you still think it might?
You never know, you never know.
And with your own investments, were you having them managed by someone?
Oh no no, they weren’t of any size. I used to punt away on the stock market in a
small way.
And presumably enjoyed it thoroughly?
Oh yes, enormously.
And there wasn’t ever any conflict of interest to you, it was perfectly all right to do
that?
Well I didn’t deal in things that involved conflicts. And of course, there weren’t
conflicts of interest in the Sixties, I mean they didn’t exist; everything was considered
to be fair game. In fact the first time I ever got involved in the possibility of conflicts
really was when I used to report to Martin Wilkinson at de Zoete’s every morning
exactly what we had done the day before in Australian shares, and he was very
sensitive to conflicts of interest, not that it mattered that my father was, you know,
just retired as Chairman of the ANZ Bank and we bought some ANZ Bank shares or
whatever, but he drew my attention to conflicts, and I learnt a lot about conflicts in the
late Sixties from him. But not many other people seemed to worry about it, but he
was Chairman of the Stock Exchange so he had every reason to worry.
Right. And were you quite successful in your small way?
Yes, I made quite a bit of money out of BHP and Western Mining.
I mean in your own stocks.
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Yes, myself. If I believed in something I would buy it myself, if I had the money
available.
And did you make any terrible errors, on your own account?
Oh yes, absolutely.
And you were philosophic about those?
Totally.
And would somebody like Christopher ask you to make investments for him?
What, my brother?
Mm.
He always put any money that he had into antiques, and I would think that his
investment track record is infinitely better than his four brothers added together.
That’s interesting.
Yes, I don't think there's any doubt about that.
Right. And, so when you did join Gerrard & National, were you taken immediately
under Whitaker’s wing, or was it more subtle than that? What was your actual role
first?
Well, when I joined Gerrard & National very rapidly I was no longer under
Whitaker's wing; one was really in the sort of, a tiny sea but it was an open sea, and it
was made abundantly clear that you know, I was one of the executive directors and I
was going to do the same job as the rest of them. Obviously we all had different
responsibilities, but I certainly wasn’t given favoured nation treatment, and quite
rightly not.
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And so what was life like there at Gerrard & National, how did it compare with the
two other companies we’ve talked about?
Well we were back to working in a smaller company; Gerrards had forty-two people
in it. And it was in a way, it was rather like a highly-charged Jessel Toynbee of ten
years earlier, you know, it was that sort of institution. And the great foil for everyone seems to have a foil, but I suppose one’s been lucky working for people who
are very talented and they have a very good foil – the admirable foil for Kenneth
Whitaker was a marvellous man called Oldacre. Angus Oldacre was as good a
mathematician as you can come across, and he was a wise man, and he was an
unflappable individual, and he in combination with the mercurial Whitaker was a
pretty telling combination. And I would say that Angus Oldacre, I wouldn’t say that
we couldn’t have managed without him, but the firm would not be the firm it is today,
and the very successful firm it is today, but for Angus Oldacre, he was very important.
And he was very important in helping to train and shape the likes of Henry Askew,
Tommy Fellowes, or me.
That’s interesting, because nobody’s mentioned him before.
Very very important man. Ross Jones you see wouldn’t know him, but Henry
certainly would have known him, and he was a great influence on Henry.
I must go back through the tapes. It doesn’t ring a bell as a name.
No.
What would you say he gave to Henry, what would Henry have taken from him in
terms of learning?
Well he was...Henry was the flair man, and Angus Oldacre didn't have particularly
outstanding flair, but he was so good at working things out mathematically, and he I
think impressed Henry enormously. And I mean working out the average length of
our book, which is terribly important when you’re dealing in interest rates, and we
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had say eight or nine categories of investments. And so we had 100-million Treasury
bills for forty-seven days, and we had 120-million of commercial bills for ninety-one
days, or whatever, and adding up the total assets and working out the average length, I
used to do it on a machine and tap it out quite quickly, and then I would get the
answer of 61.4 days. And one day I said to Angus could you work it out...no, I said,
‘What’s your view on it?’ and gave him the sheet of paper, and I tapped away while
he was thinking, and I said you know, ‘As you know, it’s about...actually it’s 64.2
days,’ and he said, ‘I know it is.’ So I said, ‘Well how on earth do you know it is?’
‘Well,’ he said, ‘I've just worked it out.’ And he would do that in his head, without
the need of a machine. That impressed people like Henry and me a lot, and he was
really nice with it.
He was convivial?
Oh yes, lovely fellow, yes.
And what was his background, what was his life outside, what were his interests?
He was originally, well previous to Gerrard & National he was in King & Shaxson,
another discount house, and he was sacked actually because he was considered to be
pretty ineffective, which was a bad misjudgement, but anyway lucky Gerrard & Reid
and then lucky Gerrard & National. Angus was a very religious man actually, he was
very interested in the Church. He was interested in history. He was a sort of deepthinking man, and I should think had rather a quiet home life with his wife Doris.
They were a very happy couple, and I would think they didn't do a tremendous lot
outside their immediate community, but they were very important figures within it
always, parochial church council or whatever, all those sorts of things, and they were
much respected at Saffron Walden where they lived.
And was there at this stage a sort of family atmosphere at Gerrards?
There was a team atmosphere, we were all in it together, and...I think it was team
more than family, because Kenneth Whitaker was as I've indicated an odd-ball, he
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was not necessarily... I mean he thought it was a family, I think he thought it was a
family, I don't think we did. But it was a pretty happy team.
And during his time as Chairman when you were also there, were there any sort of
turning points, were there moments that were tremendously important, either successwise or the reverse?
I think that success-wise from, the first year I was there, you know, things couldn’t
have gone better; absolutely nothing to do with me, I had no influence at all, but they
really did go very well, and the firm strengthened. Then we had the disasters from
summer ’72 through to the end of ’73, and the fringe bank crisis and all those sort of
things, but interest rates rising very sharply. And we survived through that, and I
remember...and I think one can safely say a lot of that was due to Kenneth Whitaker;
he was tremendously resilient, and under pressure he absolutely revelled in adverse
conditions, even if we were suffering, because he always took the view other people
would handle it less well than him, and he was right. But I do remember one thing,
when he came into our room, he didn’t get involved in the minute by minute meetings
and we were having our morning meeting, I suppose Angus Oldacre was in charge,
and I remember when he walked out of the room and he said, ‘Well, oh bash on.’ So
one of us said, ‘Well you say bash on, I mean we haven’t got much to bash on with.’
He said, ‘Yes, but you all go out into the streets this morning and visit the banks, and
you.....
[End of F3122 Side A]
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Tape 4 [F3122] Side B (part 8)
You were just saying that you had all said to Kenneth Whitaker that you hadn’t got much to
bash on with.
Yes, and then he said that when you go out round the banks this morning, the eight of you,
make absolutely certain that you all look cheerful the whole time, and smile as much as you
can, because everyone’s watching you just to see whether you can handle it, and whether you
have done very badly or just quite badly.
And so that’s to do with keeping people's confidence up isn’t it?
It is, and...I mean he was a great chap I think for looking...serene is not exactly the word you
would attach to Kenneth Whitaker, but looking very calm on the surface but prepared to
paddle like hell under water. He enjoyed that. And he wasn’t misleading people, because we
were going to pull through, but it was a very difficult time for people in our field.
And did you ever think you had made the wrong decision to join the firm?
No no, no. I've never thought in those terms at any stage; I've always been sad to leave on a
day-to-day basis the three firms I’ve worked in, and I’m sure I'll be sad to leave when I retire
from my present job, but no, I don't look back, I don’t look back at all.
So when you first joined what was your typical day at Gerrard, what were you doing?
A typical day, entirely due to Henry Askew wishing to get to the office at 7.30 we all had to
be there by eight o’clock, which in those days I think was quite unnecessary, but of course
that stood us in very good stead later on when we were in the office ahead of everyone else,
and if anyone wanted to do a big deal in the money markets they would come on to us first.
And I do remember one of the large American banks wanted to do a very large deal in oneyear CDs, and we were able to quote a wide price in size and took them on in the full amount
they wanted to deal in, and actually we made quite a lot of money out of it. But we were the
early birds and renowned as the early birds, and we got a lot of business early on.
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Unfortunately others started to come in early a few years after that, but we had a good run for
about five years.
Right, so you would get in early.
Get in early, and I would stay there relatively late actually, because I used to stay there doing
sort of private letter writing or whatever, it was you know, rather peaceful, so I mean I didn’t
usually rush off. And the morning would be largely involved with visiting the banks and
trying to get business out of them.
Presumably the days of the top hat were gone by this stage?
No, the top hat was very much in evidence in the Seventies, and only really started to fade in
the later Eighties funnily enough.
So your heart must have sunk, to have been presented with a top hat again.
Oh, back to the top hat, yes, but as I said I only carried it. But no, the top hat was very much
around in the Seventies.
So sorry, yes, I got side-tracked. You would visit the banks. And were you by this stage
visiting them with a different kind of conversation from one you had been in in the very first
firm, or had the world moved on...?
It was all slightly more up front, and one was trying to do the bigger business, and Whitaker’s
view was, don't worry about the price just get the volume, which was a fairly cavalier way of
running a book, but it did enable us to build up a very large book. I remember our balance
sheet total leapt from £400-million to £658-million in, I would think it was probably 1975 or
something - no no, it must have been 1972, 1972, which was a very large figure in those days.
But margins were good, your average cost of money was usually at least half a per cent below
the return on your investment, so there was a good margin, so to pay an extra eighth or threesixteenths I think irritated our competitors, but Whitaker was quite prepared to do it, and on
the extra volume he did very well. So, I used to go out very regularly when I first went to
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Gerrards but then as Henry Askew would say I was used, you know, in short bursts after that,
because there were other things to do, you know, actually running the business.
Did you say you all had a meeting first thing in the morning?
We had a morning meeting, yes.
And who would have been at that?
The executive directors, and only the executive directors initially, and you know, they would
have a sort of, a cosy chat amongst themselves, and then the senior dealers and the heads of
department would come in, and we would say what we thought having worked out what we
thought, and we would ask them their views, and they were all encouraged to say exactly
what they thought, and on many occasions they made invaluable contributions. But it was
the directors meeting together first and then the others coming in.
And when the directors met together were they nearly always of the same opinion or was
there quite a lot of conflict?
I would think there were more different opinions at Gerrard & National than in any other firm
of its type. Everyone on that board seemed to have their own opinion, or their own angle,
and therefore it made it quite difficult for the person in charge to guide the firm minute by
minute, or guide the book in the precise direction that he thought was right. Because the
opinions that were held were very strongly held, and expressed in you know, in terms that
everyone could understand.
And the people whose views didn't get taken up on the first day, would there still be some bad
feeling hanging around by the next day, or did it all get resolved, or what?
There was sometimes the feeling that X was rather put out that you know, we were going in
precisely the opposite direction that he wished. I think that we...it was a firm where we
always looked back to see if we could learn something from it, but never ever did anyone say,
‘Well, if only you had listened to me’; that never happened, and it shouldn’t happen, because
it doesn’t achieve anything anyway. We all knew the mistakes we had made as individuals,
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and you know, we took that into account when expressing our opinion – well most of the time
we took into account when expressing our opinion again in the future.
And when there were a multitude of opinions, how much was it the strength of the argument
and how much of it was strength of personality that won the day?
Well I would like to think it was the strength of the argument there that won the day, but on
occasions the strength of the personalities was fairly strong! (laughing) And you know, you
had...we had all been working together and we did work together for ages, I mean years and
years, and we knew each other and respected each other, I’m certain of that, and therefore
people are much freer in what they say. And I mean I remember one particular thing, when
interest rates in this country had never been in double figures, and the Bank Rate was say
eight per cent and Tommy Fellowes said, ‘Well I think it’s going to twelve’, and I said,
‘Don’t be ridiculous, I mean there’s no question of us ever having to go to the Bank of
England and pay more than ten per cent for money.’ Well we’ve been paying double figures
for the last fifteen years most of the time! I mean those sort of remarks you get provoked
into, and they’re remembered, by the friends!
And does it mean also that, on a sort of normal day there might be six different opinions, and
more than one of them is the right one, I mean that you might have taken somebody else's and
it still would have been all right, that it’s not really ever cut and dried.
Oh yes, I mean there are shades of opinion, yes there are shades of opinion, and... But they
always took the view, and we always took the view when Whitaker was in charge, that we
would say exactly what we thought, and if our argument didn’t carry the day and we went on
a different course, so be it, and you know, it wasn’t...it wasn’t thought right there should be a
committee decision, ever, it was up to the chap in charge, he would take the decision, but he
would listen to everyone’s views, and he always did, whoever he was, you know.
And if there was an occasion when there was one view that he might have felt was the best
one but for some reason he thought another person's view was still good and the other person
needed to be encouraged, would he ever take that second view?
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I wouldn’t have done, never. I think that, I mean if you feel someone needs to be
encouraged, you don’t do anything that you don’t think is absolutely the right decision for the
book, because that book is being run on behalf of the shareholders and you’ve got to...you’ve
got to maximise every situation when running a book like that. But there are other ways of
encouraging individuals if they need encouraging, but that’s not one.
Such as?
Well, such as, I mean I imagine...well it's the way you run any business, I mean there
are...you have cosy chats with people and try and bring them out. And I mean anyone who
was a director of Gerrard & National while I was there had a lot to contribute, and you can
easily switch to a subject where he's infinitely better informed than you are, and that’s one of
the ways that he...
And in Whitaker’s day was there anyone with whom he was abrasive? Was there anybody in
the team where it was difficult, where it was tense?
No, I think he...I would think the person who irritated him most was me, because he believed
in long lunches, you know, get people there at a quarter to one and about three o’clock think
of leaving. But the business had to be run, and a very crucial part of the day was from two to
three, and I was very much against these long lunches, although they were very enjoyable,
and I was perfectly happy to have a few, but not on a daily basis, and anyway it’s so
frightfully tiring, people drinking rather too much wine, purely because they’ve been there
for too long. And there was a little bit of friction over that, and he used to say, ‘Oh since
Roger Gibbs has arrived we now have brunch, so I’m afraid you will be gone by half-past
two,’ you know. Well most people were terribly relieved to have gone by half-past two!
(laughs) And he had as few board meetings as he could possibly get away with; I mean you
obviously have to have board meetings, but...
Because he was an autocrat?
Yes, he wanted...I mean he felt that the best way to run a discount house was to have him,
two clerks and a messenger, I mean that was his formula; and as we said the business is a
little bit bigger than that, you know, you can't be at every bank every morning.
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And did he have a faithful secretary?
He didn’t have a...well I mean I'm sure he had a faithful secretary, but he had three or four
different secretaries, and then he had a secretary for his last two years called Cecilia Greiff,
who then was my secretary for the next fourteen or fifteen years, and she was the most
wonderful cornerstone of the firm, and she had an uncanny way of keeping Kenneth
Whitaker under control, and everyone - well actually all of us under control for that matter,
because she was quite a powerful lady. But we were all devoted to Cecilia, and she was a
very key figure in the firm. I mean she wouldn’t...she would be the first to admit she didn't
understand what the business was all about, but she understood the characters involved and
you know, she was a pretty special person to have around. She was amazing; when I did my
Marathon thing and raised a lot of money thanks to all the institutions and trusts, Cecilia, she
typed five thousand individual letters in total over a period of a year on that one thing alone.
I mean she was a real worker. And when we got the cheques in for this scanner, you know,
she was so excited opening the post. I mean she was a most wonderful person to have
around.
And, do you know anything about her life outside work? Did she contribute that, or not?
She was involved in the Church and various other local affairs in Croydon, that’s where she
lived, and with her husband Malcolm, who is an architect, well he’s retired now. And they
moved shortly before she retired in 1989 to Angmering-on-Sea, and they’ve got a very nice
house there, and she is now, you know, running the church roof appeal and whatever at
Angmering-on-Sea.
And during Whitaker’s time were there any women in senior positions?
No. I think the straight answer is no, but that didn’t happen that much in the City then, and
since then there have been several ladies in relatively senior positions, but not in the most
senior positions, it just hasn't worked out that way. But it’s happening in the Bank of
England; in fact there’s a remarkable lady in the Bank of England called Merlyn Lowther,
who has held key positions in, well certainly in gilt-edged and foreign exchange sides, and
she is the sort of person who could go very near to the top. So there’s hope for them.
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And did Whitaker have any links outside Gerrards with other figures who were very key?
Oh yes, he had a particularly close friendship with Dick Wilkins, who is the senior partner of
one of the two largest jobbing firms, Wedd Durlacher; he and Dick Wilkins were very close
indeed.
And that had happened casually or it had happened through business or, do you know how it
happened?
I don’t know how it happened. I would think it happened through business I’m sure. And
then they had...they were very interested in Cornwall and St. Mawes and that sort of area,
where Dick Wilkins had a house and Gerrards, when Kenneth Whitaker was Chairman,
bought a very good hotel called the Tresanton Hotel, which I have to say I sold as soon as I
became Chairman because I didn't think we had time to run hotels, particularly as there was
also a garage in St. Mawes and one or two other bits and pieces around.
So really it was a bit of a game for them.
Yes, a game, but a game that was intended to be profitable. Yes, I mean we saw a lot of Dick
Wilkins.
And in business terms what did that mean? I mean did it mean that business automatically
went back and forth between the two companies, or was it wider than that, or what?
Well it didn’t really, because it didn’t quite work like that, us being a discount house and they
being jobbers. If we had been a discount house and they were stockbrokers yes, I’m sure it
would have happened, but it was because the businesses didn’t quite intertwine in the way
that would have worked. But no, we found ourselves underwriting things that Dick Wilkins
was involved in, and we did a bit of business with him yes but nothing huge.
And is there anything we should say about him to make him come alive as a character?
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Dick Wilkins? R.S. Wilkins, he was rotund, I would think eighteen stone, five foot eight. He
had race horses with Peter Cazelet who trained for the Queen Mother and therefore was very
much in that circle, and I went to his memorial service, and another friend of Dick Wilkins
was Nigel Mordant, and the person who gave the address said at one stage, ‘Well, I suppose
we can be certain that Nigel and Dick are cooking up something up there.’ And he said,
‘Whatever it is, it’s bound to be trained by Peter Cazelet.’ Which was a very nice remark.
Did he used to drink in the Ritz?
He had a...he lived in the Ritz - sorry no, he lived in the Savoy.
I think somebody's mentioned him before.
Yes I’m sure they have.
It’s just beginning to...
He lived in the Savoy. But he was the dominant gilt-edged jobber; he was really the
dominant jobber I would think for a period of years. Akroyd & Smithers of course were as
successful if not more successful than Wedd in the end, and they had a lot of very able
people, but I think Dick Wilkins was the most powerful character among the jobbers.
Was he slightly on the edge of a kind of underworld as well?
Oh I don’t think so.
Was he respectable?
Dick Wilkins? Certainly. Slightly outrageous but respectable. He I think was interested in
fast cars; he was interested in living, and living life to the full. I think he had a high
reputation in the City, but he was slightly outrageous in some ways.
Did he use bad language?
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I would think he probably has, like quite a lot of people have, but I mean I think he would...if
he did ever use it, it would be in circumstances which wouldn’t matter.
No, I don’ think it can be the same man, because I've got a feeling this person I’m half
remembering was almost characterised by the use of bad language, so it must have been
someone else.
No no no, absolutely not, no. No no, that wouldn’t be Dick Wilkins at all. He could be very
charming, in fact he was very charming; I enjoyed him enormously.
Oh right. And going back to your day, at the beginning. You’ve had the morning with the
banks, you’ve maybe had to have a terribly long lunch with Kenneth Whitaker, and then
what’s the remainder of your day at that stage in the City?
Well then you’ve got to square the book, and OK that only goes on till three o’clock: well it
usually goes on a bit beyond that, but getting the money in to square the book, or going down
to the Bank of England to borrow, or...that was up till sort of 3.15, 3.30 I suppose. And then
you would review the day. We used to have a meeting at four o’clock and plan what we
wanted to do in after hours dealings, or...
Who would be at that meeting?
The executive directors only. We would have spent a lot of time in the dealing room,
and...well the general running of the business would you know, absorb the rest of the day.
We didn't write many letters, but there were some, you know, letters to be written, and papers
to be prepared for a meeting. You know, there were lots of things going on. It was a fullish
day, but there was endless chat on the telephone to people, that was the main theme running
through the day.
So, the little run-up to three o’clock or 3.15, that was where the main tension was, was it,
where you had a deadline really?
There was a deadline; you always knew you were going to borrow the money, you always
knew you would get it, but there were certain judgements to be made along the way, and if
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you thought you needed eighty million to square the book and the forecast that the Bank of
England had given was that there was a surplus of 300 million in the market place you're
bound to get it, and if you don't get it you can go to the Bank of England and borrow it at a
price. But if you are eighty million short and there’s a shortage forecast of 250 million, that’s
a totally different matter because the Bank is going to have to do some help and buy some
bills off you to put you in funds, and you’ve got to judge whether you want to sell paper or
whether you want to borrow money, and you’ve got to judge when to borrow the money,
because rates can fluctuate very sharply in the last half-hour or so. I mean the other day they
reached a hundred per cent per annum on one day, when the market was very squeezed for
money, and the discount houses didn’t want to sell paper, didn’t want to sell assets, because
they thought interest rates were coming down, and so a sort of squeeze position. So there are
quite a few judgements to be made, and that's when someone like Henry Askew is absolutely
in his element.
And how would you be?
How would I be? Oh I would enjoy that. I would be quite good at it. Not good at many
things but I’d be quite good at that. But we made some mistakes.
Any we should make a record of?
No, absolutely none, no. But we did make mistakes, and you know, money can get stuck in
the system, and I remember many years ago we had to borrow for what in those days was a
very large sum of money from the Bank of England, because it had got stuck in the system.
It wasn’t our fault, but we had to borrow rather more than was appropriate really, and the
Bank of England made it abundantly clear that the money markets in London were run by the
Bank of England and not Gerrard & National, so would we please, you know, just bear that in
mind and be less elephantine. Strong language for the Bank of England in the Seventies.
Gracious, yes. And had it changed much from your first encounter with the Bank?
Usually when you made...you've done something that they don’t approve of and you’ve overtraded or whatever, possibly through no fault of your own, they speak in language such as,
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‘We on balance feel that was a misjudgement.’ and that means you’ve made a complete hash
of it and don’t do it again. You know, it’s the phraseology.
So being elephantine almost puts you out of business.
Elephantine was the ultimate crushing remark, mm, squashing remark.
So had the Bank changed in between, while you’ve been at de Zoete’s; was it different
dealing with the Bank of England by the time you joined Gerrards?
I don’t think the Bank...I think the Bank of England was very much the same in the...my
knowledge of it in the Fifties was very limited, but Sixties, Seventies and early Eighties it
was absolutely the same. But since then it has changed with much more regulation, and the
whole City has changed, and that’s not the Bank of England’s fault, but it’s much less easy as
markets have become much more volatile around the world, for the Bank of England to have
the same sort of control as they did in the old days. I mean if in the Sixties they were
unhappy about the way things were going in the money markets, I mean they would start and
probably finish with just seeing the chairman of the discount market and just say look, we
aren’t happy about this that and the other, and things would suddenly calm down, because
you know, that’s the way it happened in those days. But now the thing is so big, and huge
sums of money involved, that no sector can control it, no central bank can control it, as has
been shown recently. I mean you have the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day talking
from the steps of the Treasury, talking about seven-and-a-half billion pounds of foreign
currencies that he borrowed, and that was to support the pound if it was necessary, and there
were a lot of people around who said to themselves, £7½ billion is a tiny sum of money in
world foreign exchange terms. Whether the average turnover in London in the foreign
exchange markets each day is one hundred or £300 billion, it's that sort of order, and it’s
almost inconceivable that a Chancellor of the Exchequer can talk like that. You know,
it’s...and that is a signal to the world at large that there’s a problem, and that’s why I
think...that’s one of the many reasons why we’ve got in the muddle we have recently.
So was it a tactic to give it a signal, or were they really just making a tremendous mess?
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I think that there have been so many things recently that have been, to use the Bank of
England’s term, ‘misjudged’. I think that talk from the steps of the Treasury was very
misguided; I think that the Prime Minister, who has done an admirable job in so many ways,
saying that he would not re-align within the ERM, boxed himself into a corner, particularly as
recently as July when the Germans put one of their main rates up by three-quarters of a per
cent when it was quite clearly unnecessary, they were signalling that we’re going to do
nothing to help the pound or the UK, and that message didn’t seem to be absorbed by the
powers that be here. And also what I think is very sad when most informed people, certainly
those in the market place, over the last six months have taken the view that inflation will not
take off in the near term with interest rates at ten per cent, because people are battening down
the hatches, they are frightened they’re going to be out of a job, in fact they’re frightened, and
therefore the last thing they’re going to do is to put in for large pay claims that they think
could possibly be agreed to. And I think a lot of people think the authorities just got it
wrong, and we’re not in an inflationary environment, and...no, I think it’s...there’ve been a lot
of errors made recently.
Elephantine.
I think clumsy. Clumsy and a bit naive, sadly, which is, it’s very odd, it’s not usually like
that, it’s just it happens to be a very poor patch. And also what is sad is you find nowadays
that, I mean there was an occasion the other day, when the Bank of England are indicating to
the world outside they want to keep interest rates up, and doing it for three days running and
then suddenly interest rates are cut one per cent. There’s obviously a total lack of liaison
between the Government and the Treasury and the Bank of England, and it makes the Bank
of England look so stupid. They’ve got enough problems anyway.
And everybody more frightened.
And everyone more frightened.
[end of eession]
[End of F3122 Side B]
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Tape 5 [F3123] Side A (part 9)
Interview with Roger Gibbs at his home on the 3rd of February 1993.
You mentioned that Timothy Bevan was something of a sportsman.
Yes, he’s a really rather distinguished sailor, and I think the first time he went down
the Cresta he was 57. He's the sort of person who would have a go at anything.
Could you tell the tape the story about him ringing you up and saying that he wanted
to come and see you, and what you thought it was about.
I suppose it must have been 1986, and Tim Bevan was Chairman of Barclays, and
Gerrard & National’s office is absolutely opposite Barclays’ head office, and Tim
Bevan rang up and said he would like to come and have a quiet word with me. And
as there were rumours about various institutions of differing sizes being interested in
buying Gerrard & National, it was just before Big Bang, I said I feared it might be a
cheeky bid from one of our big friends, and so I said, ‘I'll nip over and see you,’ and
he said, ‘No I absolutely insist on coming over to Gerrard & National.’ So he came
over and I was fearing the worst, and he said, ‘I've just got one spare day when I'm in
Switzerland and I wonder, could you possibly arrange for me to go down the Cresta
on the morning of February the 17th?’ That remark came as a considerable relief.
If Barclays had wanted to take you over, what would have happened? Would you
have just been powerless?
Well I think they would have...if they had wanted to take us over they would have
taken on an exceptionally talented team of people, obviously excluding myself, and it
would have been to their advantage, but I think they thought that they had a pretty
good team of people doing roughly the same thing so there was really not much point
in it.
Did anybody else ever try and take you over?
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Oh yes, there were...there was a lot of talk in the press; there was more talk in the
press than actual serious enquiry, but we did once make a statement that we were in
talks with a certain institution with...
Is this James Capel when you were actually thinking of...?
No no, not that, no. But we did make a statement and saying that we were having
talks with a certain institution which could lead to a bid, and it didn’t, and we never
divulged which that institution was.
And when you were talking to James Capel before Big Bang, that would be more of a
merger rather than...?
Well that was on the gilt-edged side of things; it wasn’t a full bid at all, or anything
like that, not even a merger. It was a joint venture on the gilt side. We had certain
expertise which they didn’t have, and vice versa.
Right, so it wasn't one person chasing and one person...?
No no no, this was just...it would have worked, but then the Bank of England changed
the rules and then it wasn’t really appropriate for either party.
And, since we mentioned Bevans, one thing I wanted to pick up from last time was
that, when you were talking about the merger between Bevan and de Zoete you were
saying that de Zoete's was the more aggressive partner and that Bevan had all these
wonderful contacts, and I wondered what you meant by contacts. Do you mean that
had come through the family in generations, or what?
I mean corporate contacts. I mean they were brokers to some very substantial
companies, whether it be...I really don't remember the names now but I would think, I
mean RTZ and IMPS and people like that, I mean very substantial companies. And
de Zoete’s were brokers to quite a number of companies but they were all very small;
I mean Laporte was very much the biggest of de Zoete’s corporate contacts, of that
type.
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And so the Bevan contacts really were ones that had been made relatively recently;
they weren’t ones that went back generations?
Oh I think they went...David A. Bevan Simpson went back, their contacts went back a
long time. People like Johnny Bevan, Colonel Bevan, he was a very influential man
and had a lot of friends in the right places.
So do you think, compared to his day, where presumably there was quite a network to
do with Eton and Oxbridge, do you think that's been diluted, or do you think
fundamentally it’s still there?
Well there’s...I think a lot of boys who leave Eton consider the City as a pretty live
option for them, so there certainly is that element in the City still, but it’s been much
diluted over the years.
In a good way or a bad way?
I think that it’s probably a good thing; I think it is...no definitely a good thing. But
equally I think it’s very important that that element is still there.
Because?
Well I think the best of the people who go to those sort of schools are the best, and I
think you want them in any part of society, whether it be industry, the arts, or
anything.
And going back to your...oh I know, the other person I wanted to ask you about
actually, you mentioned Simon de Zoete is now with the firm. What's he like? We
talked about Miles, but as a person what is Simon like?
I suppose Simon, Simon is a workaholic and he's a real professional in his particular
part of stockbroking. I don't know what he specialises in at the moment, but whether
it be say investment trusts, I mean he would be as good as anyone in that field.
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Anything he does he does extremely well, and in a somewhat I would say, and I mean
this politely, blinkered way: he concentrates, he focuses on that particular area and is
inclined to dominate that particular part of the business. He has the...he has inherited
the vagueness of his father, which is I suppose a part of both his late father’s and his
charm. He’s...no, he focuses on a fairly narrow field but does it jolly well.
And if you hadn’t known him and had met him on a train or something, would you
have been able...would something have reminded you of his father? Is there a very
strong family thing, or not?
I think so. His father might not have remembered my name on the spur of the
moment, although he was a very great friend and I worked for him for seven years. I
think Simon would certainly remember my name. But they’re the sort of people who
would be delighted to see you on any occasion.
But I mean would you have, if you hadn't known, would you have thought, this person
reminds me of Miles?
I think...yes, he does; the sort of facial expression and the vagueness I think would
remind me. But Simon is very much a professional as well, and his father was one of
the best ever amateurs.
I was going to ask you funnily enough, because it cropped up this morning when I was
interviewing someone who was talking about two very different kinds of bankers
really, and they were different generations, and I said is that the difference, that one,
the old generation is slightly amateur and the younger is professional. I mean is that
in a way the parallel you were drawing, or is it between personalities?
I think that in the old days there were some very professional people who appeared on
the surface to be fairly amateurish but underneath were real pros, but they were the
exception in those days. Nowadays I think you've got to be pretty professional to
survive at all.
And what would you define as professional, or amateur, vice versa, which would it...?
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What would I describe as professional. Well I think the individual who is an expert in
one particular field but pretty knowledgeable about every other field that he has to be
involved in.
So it’s being well-informed rather than a matter of conduct?
Oh yes, oh absolutely. I think the ethics in the City were of a very very high standard
when I first came to the City in the middle Fifties, and I think sadly in certain areas of
the City that they have deteriorated a bit over the last decade, but I think that's true of
quite a lot of professions.
But I was wondering also about efficiency as well as ethics, when we’re talking in
terms of professionalism.
Oh I think things are more efficient now, much more efficient than they were. I mean
you take in the old days a firm like Robert Fleming’s, they appeared to be slightly
amateurish, or to have an amateurish charm about them, but they were very
professional underneath, and that professionalism shines through and has shone
through, you know, through the Sixties, Seventies, Eighties and into the Nineties in
that particular case. But I think a lot of other firms were relatively inefficient way
back, and now they have to be extremely efficient otherwise they just wouldn’t be
there.
And do you know, the firm in fact we were talking about this morning was Helbert
Wagg, and it was someone who later became part of Schroders, and he was
comparing those two, and he was saying that Helbert Wagg did the work, but they
thought that the work was a means to an end, and there was fun in life, whereas the
Schroders ethic was really much less fun and fewer jokes and things like that. I mean
did they have...did those two houses have that character to an outsider, or not?
Helbert Wagg to an outsider, I mean I used to visit Helbert Wagg once a week in the
middle, late Fifties, and they were charming people and the business wasn't very big,
and it was all done in the most civilised way. Equally I used to visit Schroders, and
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they were much tougher, much tougher, much harder to bargain with, and I think the
combination of the Helbert Wagg people and Schroders, it seemed to...those two firms
merged very successfully. And OK, Schroders dominated the scene, but I think the
Helbert Wagg influence went on for a long while and has probably done Schroders
quite a lot of good over the long term.
And do you think Helbert Wagg could have survived without the merger?
Not a hope, no. Not a hope. They would have got just quietly smaller and smaller
and then someone would have taken them over, because they were a very nice, good
group of people.
And how did Warburgs compare with them, when you...did you call on Warburgs?
Yes, I certainly did, but Warburgs were...they were very professional, and Sir
Siegmund Warburg was probably one of the best merchant bankers of his generation
or any generation, and he picked clerks from other merchant banks, like David
Scholey, so he was a good picker as well.
And the person I was interviewing this morning said he didn't think anybody wanted
to be known as the friend of Siegmund Warburg. Does that ring true?
I don’t understand that at all; I think...Siegmund Warburg, as I think I may have told
you, was an outside director of Jessel Toynbee, and he was a great friend of Dick
Jessel my chairman. And I hardly ever spoke to Siegmund Warburg. I mean I held
him in considerable awe, but Dick Jessel liked him a lot. And I’ve never heard people
say that he could never be your friend; I think he was a very good friend to a lot of
people, but a very demanding one, certainly work-wise.
And do you think the anti-Semitism played a big role?
I don’t think it played a big role at all by itself. I mean I worked for delightful Jews,
and Jews have played a major part in the development of the City of London over the
years, and I don’t think that was a factor at all.
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And did you ever encounter Kit Hoare?
Kit Hoare certainly, yes. Yes I did, on many occasions.
And what was your impression of him?
My impression of him was that, well I worked at Fleming’s for five months, you
know, being trained between Jessel Toynbee and de Zoete’s, and he prodded me in
the stomach one morning as he came into the office, he said, ‘I don’t know who you
are, but I know you shouldn’t be here.’ Now that was quite perceptive, because I
really shouldn’t have been, because I should either have been at Jessel Toynbee or at
de Zoete’s, and I was only a sort of a passing, it was only a passing phase. But he did
have uncanny flair of getting things right, and I think that's just an example, that he
was...he knew what was going on. But he was quite austere, he was quite a tough
fellow and... But he was one of the characters; he went on working far longer than he
should have done.
But when he said that to you, was it meant to make you feel uncomfortable or was it
faintly friendly?
Faintly friendly, with the emphasis on the faintly!
Right. And going back to you, you said that you joined Gerrard & National as one of
several executive directors, with the possibility that you might become chairman,
which was quite important in terms of you taking your salary cut.
I think that had been indicated to one or two others as well.
Actually that was something you said before, and you passed it off, but I mean was it
wounding to you to find that there was animosity towards you over that?
I don’t think there was animosity towards me; I mean I would put it at worst as mild
irritation, that this fellow turns up, why on earth should he have the inside track? You
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know, I mean I think there was a little bit of that. But they knew me quite well most
of them, and I think that they didn’t feel I was the sort of person who was going to
rock any boat or crush anyone to the floorboards, not that I could have done even if I
had tried.
And you say you had the inside track, but it still wasn’t a foregone conclusion.
It certainly wasn’t.
So can you tell me what happened between being executive director and chairman,
and how it was that you became the chairman?
Well I think that...I mean there were various other live candidates, and it could have
been David Money-Coutts who became Chairman of Coutts, who had been Deputy
Chairman, as a non-executive deputy chairman for a few years; it could have been
Johnny Murray-Jones, who ran his own firm, Murray-Jones, which was in the end
taken over by Gerrards; it could have been Peter Miles, who had been in the firm for
quite a long time and eventually became Chairman of Murray-Jones and Astley &
Pearce: Murray Jones became Astley & Pearce. I mean it could have been several
others. Someone called Archie Eglinton, he had also come into the firm from
Grieveson Grant. I think I, although it may sound slightly arrogant I think I was the
front runner, and when it was thought that my predecessor Kenneth Whitaker was
about to retire, I mean in the market place they always put a price on everything and I
think I was 7-4 favourite, but I was not odds on.
But had anything dramatic happened in the years intervening to any of you to knock
someone out of the running, or to push somebody forward?
I don’t think so, but there was a wonderful man called Angus Oldacre who was in
effect the chief executive, and he retired in summer 1973, and I actually took over as
Chairman on the 1st of January ’75, but I was made the sort of un-named chief
executive in summer '73, and although the money markets and Gerrard & National
had a very very difficult time in that period, and it was the first time we got up to
thirteen per cent interest rates and things like that, it was a very difficult time, and we
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weathered the storm pretty well, so it may have been despite the fact that I was in a
sort of key role in the firm, but anyway we did weather the storm and it became I
think quite likely I would succeed Whitaker in due course.
And when you were in that interim role, we talked last time about what a typical day
might have been when you were being executive director, what was added to you once
you were in this extra position?
Well, Kenneth Whitaker was a marvellous man in so many ways; slightly outrageous
but he was a marvellous man, and he was a punter by nature, I mean he liked taking a
view, but he wasn’t technically endowed from the bill-broking point of view, and I
think I was a more seasoned bill-broker than him, in fact I’m sure I was, and therefore
I think he relied on us young boys as he used to call us, to run the day-to-day
business. I mean he didn’t get involved in the detail at all, but if something was going
really wrong, and the market was going against us badly or whatever, he would then
get involved and he would be extremely helpful.
But when Angus retired and you became the nominal person, what was added to your
responsibilities?
Well I suppose I was...not actually taking the decisions at that stage, the ultimate
decisions, because we've always run Gerrard & National on a congenial committee
basis with everyone saying exactly what they thought, but the senior person present
actually taking the acid decision if it was a sort of split view. So there was a bit more
of that than previously; in fact there was none of that previously.
And did you flourish? I mean were you excited by that?
I found it extraordinarily enjoyable and stimulating. In fact I found it absolutely
thrilling.
And who actually told you that you were going to be made chairman? How did you
find out?
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I don't think actually anyone told me, but I suppose Kenneth Whitaker must have
done, or indicated it. He probably put it, as he did put things in a slightly different
way to some others, he would say, ‘As there's nobody else I suppose you've got to
succeed me,’ you know, I mean he...he wasn’t the sort of person who would say,
‘Well I’m delighted to be able to tell you that, you know, we’ve all decided that you
will succeed me.’ I think the others, after a lot of heart-searching, the other directors
decided they were happy for me to succeed Kenneth Whitaker, so he went along with
it.
It must be very odd actually, the first time you start sitting in the desk of someone who
has been very important to you and who you have always seen in that room in that
place.
Yes, because there’s nobody higher up to refer to, and it is, it’s a slightly unsettling,
but exciting feeling.
Was it upsetting in a way, a bit like losing a father or something...
No.
Because in order for you to have that place he had to go?
No it wasn’t in any way upsetting. Kenneth Whitaker was around and came up to the
office quite a lot over the next year.
Too much?
Well he came up every day; I don’t know whether that’s too much. But he was on a
different floor, and had his own very nice corner room with his own pictures, and
various friends in the City used to drop in and see him, and we used to get on with the
work downstairs.
So what was his role?
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Oh he didn’t have any role, he just wanted to unwind from the City, you know, at his
pace. I mean he used to come in at 10.30, eleven, and leave after lunch. But he had a
lot of friends in the City and you know, he liked seeing them.
But doesn’t giving somebody a room cost a firm a great deal of money?
Well it didn’t cost so much in those days. I think that the rent we were paying for
space, in fact I know, it was about £5 a square foot, so it was not, you know, it was
not absolutely excessive. And we did have a little extra space at that time. But in
fairness to Kenneth Whitaker, after a year he began to realise it was rather a pointless
exercise and quite a lot of his friends were retiring, and I suppose he, over the next
few months he must have come up a day a week, and then eventually he didn’t come
up at all.
And how was it arranged? I mean had he arranged that he would have this space, or
did it have to be delicately negotiated amongst you all, or what, what happened?
Well it wasn’t...I mean I think that we, or it may have been I, put it to him that you
know, what did he want to do, and he said he would like to have a room, and so we
found him as nice a room as we could.
And did he interfere with you at all or did he really just hand over?
Not at all. He...no he didn’t interfere in any way at all. He really kept out of our hair.
Did he give you any advice?
No, a few sort of withering remarks from time to time to keep us in order you know.
But that’s the way he was.
And did you celebrate the chairmanship? Did you mark it in any way?
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No, I actually marked it by becoming quite ill immediately, which didn’t help the
situation. I think in the longer term it probably helped my own situation, and it
certainly bound us all together, so that was...
What do you mean, it helped your own situation?
Well I think that if there were any waverers, that...I took over on the 1st of January and
on the 15th of March I was in hospital, and I didn’t come back until June, and I had a
major operation for cancer, and therefore your colleagues aren’t exactly going to be
disloyal to you for the next few months, and I think you know that could have helped
me, they were even more supportive than they might otherwise have been, and it
worked very well.
How did you cope with having a major operation for cancer?
Well, I did suggest to David Money-Coutts that you know, someone will really have
to get on and write the Chairman's Statement for our year ending the 5th of April,
because we used to produce our report and accounts very quickly in fact in May. And
I had my operation on April the 8th I remember, and anyway we didn’t produce the
report and accounts until about the 25th of May, but about three weeks after my
operation, and I was really...I mean I was picking up very quickly indeed, he said that,
‘You will write your Chairman’s Statement, and it’s your first Chairman’s Statement
and you and nobody else will write it,’ and that was that. So, I mean he was quite
correct, I should have done too.
And had you been feeling ill in the run-up to this? Had you been aware that
something was wrong?
More people had said, I suppose on a weekly basis, you know, are you really all right,
or something like that, but I obviously was looking quite sort of jaded, but I hadn’t
really felt anything, except I felt a bit tireder than usual, that’s about all.
And then how did you find out?
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How did I find out. Oh well without going into too many details I had a major
haemorrhage and so then the doctors at once said you know, we'll have a proper look
at you in hospital and that was that.
So that must have been a terribly frightening time.
It funnily enough wasn’t, I don’t know why. It was a slightly unsettling time because
I was worried that having just taken over, you know, that the things that one had
started to put in place and the different approaches that we had all agreed on, one
wanted to sort of push that on, but in actual fact my colleagues did that and were
wonderful in my absence.
And did you consider the fact you might not come out of hospital?
No. No I didn’t, not for a moment. I probably should have done, but I didn’t!
And did you talk to anyone about it?
I talked to my surgeon, and I said to him, he wouldn't tell me what he thought was
wrong with me, but he said you know, he had got to have a proper look, and all the
tests are showing up different signs and signals, or giving different signals, and he
said we've got to have a real look. So I said, ‘Well if it’s cancer, I mean I’m the sort
of person who can take it, so just tell me.’ Anyway I had a four-hour, five-hour
operation or what it was one evening, and he had to do another operation at eight
o’clock in the morning at Brighton, and he dropped in to see me at 6.15 in the
morning, and I had just sort of come round, and apparently I whispered to him, ‘What
was it?’ and he said, ‘Well it was an uphill struggle, but it wasn't anything like as bad
as I feared it might be, but you did ask me to tell you what it is. It is cancer, and we
really don’t know what the form is, and it will probably be a week before we do
know, but you’ll be around for a while whatever.’ And apparently he says, I just
whispered, ‘I can’t take it,’ and passed out. I don’t think that’s true at all, but that’s
what my surgeon says I said! (laughs) Can’t have been very helpful to him on his
way, as he was setting off for Brighton, but still.
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And did you have to keep going back for treatment?
No, I never had any treatment. I was very fortunate, and just had one massive
operation and that was that.
And is it something that's in the back of your mind worrying you, or not?
No it doesn’t, because I had a marvellous surgeon and I do have a marvellous doctor,
and they both took the view that it was going to be all right, and I think they would
admit now, nearly eighteen years later, that they weren’t that confident for the first
two years, but they were after that, and they've been right.
And you’ve been reasonably fit ever since?
Very fit, tuned up for the Marathon in ’82, and...no, I've been pretty fit.
And is that partly why you’re on the board of various hospitals and things like that, or
is that...?
Yes, it was...I mean why I ran in the Marathon for a body scanner for Guy’s Hospital
was because my surgeon is based at Guy’s and I wanted to do something to say thank
you to him. His ideas are rather bigger than mine, but anyway... So I got involved in
Guy’s as a result of all that, and I was on the Royal National Pension Fund for Nurses,
well a sort of family connection that goes back right to the beginning of it, but then I
suppose I went on the London Clinic and the Imperial Cancer Research Fund, I went
on those because of I suppose having been ill and my interest in that sort of thing.
And I suppose getting involved in Wellcome must have been...it must have been
slightly due to that I suppose, slightly.
Do you ever meet your surgeon socially, or is it purely...?
Certainly, yes. He’s a very good man called Frank Ellis, and he’s a delightful person.
I became his bank manager for a short time.
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His bank manager? How could you be?
Well, I mean we at Gerrard & National are bankers, and...I won’t go into any detail
about that obviously, but I was his bank manager for a while.
But they don’t have personal clients do they?
Certainly.
Oh I didn’t realise that.
They don’t nowadays actually, but in those days we had about three hundred private
clients.
And where had they come from?
Private clients? Friends from all over the place, various City contacts, mainly City
contacts.
But people could actually come and draw out their £20 from Gerrard & National?
Yes, they could; we didn’t encourage them to do much of that.
But did you actually have a banking hall?
No, we didn’t have a banking hall, but we had quite a good little private banking
business.
[End of F3123 Side A]
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Part 5 [F3123] Side B (part 10)
So once you were back in the chairman's seat what were you aiming at, what was
your shift, away from what had happened before; what made Roger Gibbs’
chairmanship?
I think my ambition when I became Chairman of Gerrard & National was to survive
the first two years, and help the firm through the very choppy seas of the early to
middle Seventies. That was really slightly easier, because market conditions were
more favourable than, to us in the money markets, than they might have been, and we
did recover from the buffeting of ’72 and ’73 pretty well, so we were in quite a strong
position by, I would say late 1976. And in December 1976 when Mr Healey turned
back from London Airport with the Governor of the Bank of England and we went
into the hands of the International Monetary Fund, that was the opportunity to make a
lot of money for the shareholders. And the reason it was such an opportunity was that
most people took the view that the whole thing was very bad news, and interest rates
went up to fifteen per cent, but the slightly more sophisticated view which quite a lot
of people in the money markets took was that if we were in the hands of the
International Monetary Fund there's no way we're going to have interest rates at
fifteen per cent very long, because we're going to be running our affairs in a
thoroughly responsible, disciplined way. And therefore if we ran our affairs in a
thoroughly responsible disciplined way, sterling would be very firm and there would
be no need for the high interest rates. And as history worked out, base rates, or Bank
Rate came down from fifteen per cent in late ’76 to five per cent in October 1977. So
that was one of the big bull runs in fixed interest, and Gerrard & National not only
made a lot of money in that particular year, but strengthened the firm to an extent
where it was really on a different plane from then on, and whether we became the
largest traditional discount house then or whether it was three or four years later I do
not know, but we were very much stronger than previously.
And can you imagine, if Kenneth Whitaker had still been Chairman, can you imagine
what decisions he would have made in the same situation?
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I think Kenneth Whitaker would have made precisely the same decisions, and it was
partly because of Kenneth Whittaker's training that we made those decisions. He
always told us that he thought it was right about once every five years to ‘back up the
truck’ as he put it, and...oh yes, ‘back up the truck and mortgage the wife’. Anyway,
he believed in putting all the chips on the table, and you know, just once every few
years there was an opportunity, and I'm sure he would have seen this opportunity,
certainly encouraged by all of us, and most of us were very optimistic. And funnily
enough, I used to do the Cresta a lot as you know, and I was in St. Moritz over the
New Year of ’76/’77, and a friend of mine, Andrea Badrutt who is one of the owners
of the Palace Hotel, knows all the sort of Agnellis and those sort of...the international
set who are pretty high-powered in business, and I asked him, I said to him, I should
think it was probably on January the 2nd, the day before I came back to London, and I
said, ‘What are people thinking about currencies?’ And he said, ‘The most
extraordinary thing, for the first time for years, they all think that sterling is cheap.’
Well if all those people thought sterling was cheap...I mean that, you know,
influenced me a lot, on top of all the other feelings my colleagues and I had, to have
that, that confirmed it for me.
And that really was just chance, that confirmation? If you hadn’t been there you
wouldn't have...?
No, well you could...I could have argued, yes, that was a very valuable business trip,
but I didn’t actually! (laughs)
And, would you normally be talking, having that sort of business conversation when
you were at somewhere like that?
One was always trying to find out from influential or knowledgeable people what they
thought about everything, because if you’re in a business where basically you are
living on your wits, OK you have assets and you produce a reasonable return on those
assets, I mean the icing on the cake is always reading the markets right at the right
time. And I think that we, the team of us at Gerrard & National were sort of a
gregarious lot and enthusiasts who always wanted to know what was going on,
whether it was behind the scenes in world cricket or in the Treasury or the Bank of
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England or whatever; I mean we were just inquisitive people by nature, and that’s
what you need to be.
And I know it’s not the case with you, but are there certain people who are trying to
get themselves up into the next rung, who might go to a place like that in order to
have a sort of access socially to people they might not have in a normal business
sense?
Oh I'm sure, I'm sure there are; there were and are, and will be.
And do you know them instantly, or do you sometimes go quite a way down a path and
think God! what’s happening?
I don’t know that I come across many of them, but...yes, I mean you spot some of
them obviously.
Just because they're being sycophantic, or...?
Yes, that would be certainly one of the reasons.
And what might the others be?
I thought you were going to ask that. I think because they’re being sycophantic I
think is probably the answer!
Right.
Well you can spot them anyway.
Right. And I know I should know this, but I can't remember who was your Governor
of the Bank of England during your chairmanship. Was it Gordon Richardson?
Gordon Richardson was, he was Governor for a while. You do two years as deputy
and two years as chairman, and I became Deputy Chairman in ’82 and Gordon
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Richardson retired as Governor on the 30th of June ’83 and Robin Leigh-Pemberton
took over on the 1st of July ’83, so I had had eighteen months or what it was of
Gordon Richardson and the rest of Robin Leigh-Pemberton.
And, I wanted to know two things, one really is, as Chairman, how does the
relationship work with the Governor, as opposed to being lower down, and secondly
when that Governor changes what were the differences.
Well, I mean with Gordon Richardson, when I first got to know him he had been
Governor for some eight years, and was very much a dominant governor and someone
who understood the market place and he...he had a real grip of everything. And he
was another person that people like me would hold in awe at the time. Since then I
would be as bold as to say he has become a very good friend, so the relationship is
totally different now. But at that time it was...I mean the tradition is that the Governor
at this weekly meeting with the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Discount
Market, the Governor listens to what you have to say and doesn't respond, and Gordon
Richardson didn't respond, you know, with tremendous enthusiasm all the time, but
the meetings...
Sorry, are you saying he didn’t respond and he did that with tremendous enthusiasm,
or he didn't respond with tremendous enthusiasm?
He didn’t respond that often, and when he did not always with tremendous
enthusiasm. But he was utterly charming, and incredibly polite, and appreciative, but
he didn’t say much; I mean a lawyer, and he was very careful, but he was a splendid
Governor of the Bank of England.
For particularly which qualities?
Very impressive figure, and highly respected as someone who understood the
financial world, both domestically and internationally, as well as anyone I think. And
Paul Volker, head of the Fed, and Gordon Richardson as Governor of the Bank of
England at the same time, they were quite an impressive pair and both commanded
enormous respect I think.
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And is he very different out of school so to speak, as a friend? Is he a completely
different personality, or not?
Well he’s the sort of person who is always willing to see you, he’s always willing to
give advice if asked; he takes enormous trouble about people. And he’s now, I think
he’s now seventy-seven, rising seventy-eight, and he is just as alert and as wellinformed as he ever was, and probably better informed. I mean I know it’s true that
when he was Governor people used to travel round the world to see him, and now he
has to do a bit of travelling to see them, but he enjoys that and he keeps in touch. And
he's a very important figure at Morgan Stanley.
And does he have a sense of humour, is he fun to be with?
Oh he certainly has a sense of humour, but not the sense of the ridiculous like
someone like myself I think. But he certainly has a sense of humour, yes, he sees the
funny side of things, and...oh he’s amused by people too.
And is he interested in the arts and the rest of life, or not?
Oh yes, I mean I think he’s a great appreciator of Covent Garden and music, and he’s
very well read. I would think that he is more interested in the business world on an
international basis and the arts than possibly relaxing in his garden at home.
And so when Robin Leigh-Pemberton took over, was there a complete change?
Well there was a complete change, because Gordon Richardson in my view was the
executive chairman, and Robin Leigh-Pemberton was the non-executive chairman,
and he had as his chief executive George Blunden as the Deputy Governor and then
later Eddie George, and two very fine chief executives they were. But I’m not saying
that Robin Leigh-Pemberton was just a non-executive chairman as Governor of the
Bank of England; he had to be executive in many ways, whether it was performing in
front of a select committee or sorting out the Johnson Matthey dramas or whatever,
but he was more non-executive than Gordon Richardson, definitely.
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So the character of your weekly meetings was quite different?
The character of the weekly meetings, it was different in that Robin Leigh-Pemberton
was much more chatty, but he is a clever man too and he would talk away in the most
congenial way, and he would listen to what you have to say and enter in the
conversation, and it would be fun, and it would go on for much longer than it did with
Gordon Richardson. But if you analysed it, I think one would find that he didn't tell
you anything that he didn't want to.
And how do you think Gordon Richardson would have got on if he had had to deal
with Thatcher?
Well he is a very high principled man, and if he believes something he would have
stood his ground. So perhaps there would have been the odd clash.
And, it sounds as though you are quite relieved that Eddie George has become the
Governor, or will become?
I'm not in any way relieved that Eddie George will become the Governor, but I do
think he is an admirable choice. The only thing against Eddie George becoming
Governor of the Bank of England I think is that you needed an outside influence as
well, because you don’t want the thing to become too cliquey, and he has been quite a
strong influence within the Bank of England for several years now. And I never
thought they would go for an outside Deputy Governor, I mean I just didn't think they
would, and therefore I wasn't sure they would choose Eddie George. But anyway they
have, and they’ve got the outside foil, and that’s an interesting choice as well, Rupert
Pennant-Rea, but I would think that Eddie George will be a very good Governor.
But you would have preferred somebody else?
No, I don’t say that at all. I had a sneaking feeling that they would have gone for
an...they were going to go for an outsider, that’s what I felt, whether it be a David
Scholey or a David Walker or whoever, or maybe some surprise choice, like Robin
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Leigh-Pemberton was. But anyway they haven’t, they’ve gone for the seasoned,
really professional central banker, who understands the market place, he understands
money raising: he understands it all, he’s got a really good feel for it. And the people
he knows too.
And what do you feel about the discussions going on about whether the Bank of
England should be independent or not?
I really haven’t...I've had quite a lot of other things to think about over the last year or
two, but I know this debate has been raging. I mean with the recent announcement of
Eddie George becoming a Governor it has been indicated at least that he will be more
responsible for controlling inflation than any previous Governor, and I think that’s a
major step in the right direction.
And, I didn’t quite understand the details of it, but the Bank of England, recently it
apropos of an auction or something upset all the discount houses by changing a rate
where it...
They upset the gilt-edged market makers.
Can you explain what...it was a sort of breaking of a gentleman’s agreement almost
wasn’t it?
Well I think that what happens in those circumstances, that they run down their books,
they probably go short of stock, so they've got plenty of room to take in stock when
the auction comes, and therefore if interest rates are cut just in front of it, it means
they’re not on the bull tack and therefore they lose money and lose quite substantial
sums.
So were all the discount houses terribly badly hit?
I very much doubt that, because some of the discount houses are remarkably shrewd
people and possibly they saw such a surprise move coming.
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Including Gerrards?
I wouldn’t know at all.
But can you just, I know this is tedious for you but what is the auction, what is an
auction in these circumstances?
Well what you have is a great tranche of gilt-edged, whether it’s one billion or two
billion pounds, and people can bid for it, and they can bid any price for it. So if there
is a lot of stock coming on offer on a particular date, if you're in that market you’re
inclined to run your book down to make room for it. So the answer is, the gilt-edged
market makers were on the wrong foot by and large, but not all of them.
But does it suggest that the Bank of England is becoming slightly more aggressive
towards them? I mean what was the significance of it, it was just a shock because it
doesn’t normally happen, but...?
I would think the auction had been set, and they had no intention of reducing interest
rates for a few weeks, but they probably saw figures regarding the economy that the
outside world hadn’t seen, and they thought that things were really not picking up and
were probably worse than that, and they had to do something and do it quickly.
And, I know one of the things you did during your chairmanship was to give an
interview to a young man called Ross Jones, and I wondered, I’ve got his story about
what happened at that interview and I wondered what your memories were.
Well when Ross Jones came to Gerrard & National?
For the first time.
When I interviewed him. Well, what happened was, Alan Tritton, who was a senior
local director if not the senior local director of Barclays, he rang me up and said,
‘There's a young chap down here from Ampleforth, and he, I don’t think he's really
Barclays form, I mean I don’t necessarily think he’s...we’re looking for something
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like that, we’ve got quite a few of those sort of people already. I mean he’s got half
an hour to spare before he goes off to lunch, I mean could I push him over to you?’
So he came over, and I had a chat with him and I think, in fact I know I brought in
Henry Askew and maybe somebody else to talk to him as well. I immediately liked
him, and I thought his attitude was entirely right, and I thought he was just the sort of
person for us.
What was his attitude?
His attitude was one of controlled enthusiasm; he obviously wanted to get ahead, get
firmly established and ahead in some firm very quickly, immediately after leaving
school. I think his father had just died and I think he felt very responsible for his
mother, which was a nice thing to feel but obviously wasn't quite the case: his mother
was very capable of looking after herself. But, he had all the nice traits, and he
appeared to be very good at mental arithmetic, and keen on mathematics. He
obviously got on well with people. I just thought he was just the sort of person we
should have.
And did Henry have that instant feeling too?
Henry had that feeling, he had that strong feeling. We had actually one of our few
strong disagreements over Ross Jones. He thought that he should join us in three or
four years and that he should go round the world and grow up a bit and then he would
be in just the right shape for us. I felt that if he was encouraged to do that, he might
well go to a firm that had a slightly broader future than Gerrard & National, and so I
thought, get him early and train him up and see what happens.
So you must really have thought he was extremely exceptional to be worried about
somebody else taking him. Because presumably you must have seen a lot of young
men like that all the time, didn’t you?
Yes, lots. Ross Jones was...I mean I suppose there were several over the years who
one thought would be suited to Gerrards, but Ross was not the...he was not as
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demanding as some of them. I mean he would have fitted in and... Anyway, it’s
turned out to have been a marvellous decision.
And you don’t remember the conversation in that first interview?
Well if you remind me I'm sure I do. What was the conversation? (laughs)
I think he said you talked about cricket and didn’t mention work.
Well I would think that...yes I would think that one was having that sort of
conversation. But I touched on the things that I wanted to touch on but I didn’t want
to be too heavy-handed about it.
And if I remember rightly, and I haven't checked this, I think you got in touch with his
mother at some stage quite soon after to say...
I did, yes.
That presumably was quite an unusual move.
I think I telephoned his mother to say that we particularly liked him, and explained
what sort of firm we were, and that you know, we were going to offer him a job.
And did you do that because you knew his father had died?
That was part of it yes. And I thought it would be nice for her to know that, you
know, he had been to Barclays, he had been to us. OK, he would have reported that to
her but I thought it would be nice if one of us just told her that we were very
impressed with him.
And had you ever done that with anybody else?
No, I don’t think so.
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And, can you tell me, since he was brought into the firm, why he has been important
and what his...?
Why he has been a...?
Important, and what his part has been?
Well, he has worked extraordinarily hard, and has become one of the best-informed
people in the short term money markets in London, and he has done that rather more
quickly than most people. He has remained extremely civilised, and a very easy
person to deal with. I think some chairmen would say that some people are quite
difficult to control; there’s not any question of controlling Ross Jones, he is the sort of
person who doesn't need to be controlled. I mean you have a wonderful, continuous
dialogue with him, and he is always producing bright ideas, and OK you don’t go
along with some of them, and sometimes, like I have been, you know, gets a bit too
enthusiastic possibly on the bull tack, and again on the bear tack, but that's...I
certainly used to do that as well. But he’s always thinking and being creative.
So do you see him almost as a son?
Certainly not, no. No I'm not that old! I see Ross Jones as a tremendous success story
for Gerrard & National and an absolutely crucial member of its sort of top team, and I
very much hope over the longer term that you know, he will be fortunate enough to
run the firm.
He said he didn’t think he had the breadth of personality and experience to run a firm.
He was very modest.
What age is he now, thirty-four?
Something like that.
Yes. Well, he won’t get the chance for quite a number of years, but I think in his mid
forties he will be absolutely ideal, as things stand at the moment, I mean who knows?
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So he wouldn’t succeed Brian, somebody would come in between presumably?
Oh I would think that...I would guess somebody would come in between, and I've no
idea who that would be. I mean whether it's the Tommy Fellowes or Robert
Elkingtons of this world I don't know. Henry will be too old.
I was going to say, was it hard for Henry to have somebody like that come in and be
very brilliant?
Well Henry is...Henry Askew was absolutely ideal for running the central part of
Gerrard’s business, that day-to-day, minute-by-minute, second-by-second money
book, he did it brilliantly; but it has become so much more technical over the last five
years, and it was marvellous for Henry that the technically-endowed Ross Jones
should come along, and he became the perfect foil, and of course you know, is now,
you know, not just a foil to Henry, he is a strong force in his own right.
They’re a wonderful double act aren’t they.
Yes, they like each other too. And of the two Ross Jones is much more patient!
(laughs)
And actually I remember Ross saying at one point that he was told he had to be more
aggressive, that he was being a bit too charming - not charming, but that he needed to
have a bit more confidence.
A bit too affable? I don't think I ever said that, but someone told him that did they?
Or that he should make more noise or something, that he should shout more or
something of that kind!
(laughing) Well he’s not a shouter, but he’s a motivator.
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And when you are chairman, are you watching people sort of day to day all the time,
thinking about the next move?
Oh yes, the whole time. It’s a small enough firm, I mean Gerrards, when I became
Chairman I would guess we had fifty people. OK we had a lot of people in the
various subsidiaries but only fifty people in the parent company, and it grew to 140,
150, and now it’s been reduced to about 100 again. I would think 100 is...I mean I
used to see, and I'm sure it goes on now, even when it was up to 150 I would see
every single person in the firm once a year for a two or three minute chat. I mean
with some people it was quarter of an hour or twenty minutes, about their salary and
how they were doing; others it was much shorter, but I would obviously see everyone
in the firm. And one knew them all, I mean they were...well they were allies I
suppose.
And did you give any key posts to women while you were Chairman?
Well there's a lovely lady called Sandra Clarke, and I wanted her to take more
responsibility, and she was so reluctant to take it. In the end I bullied her into it and
told her she was going to do it, and she did the job very well. This was really being
Henry’s right-hand lady on the money book, and she was excellent at it, and she's
been at...she must have been with the firm about twenty years. But...there have been
others who have had responsible positions, but nobody has actually come through to
the top, but if they had been right for that they would certainly have got there.
[End of F3123 Side B]
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Tape 6 [F3124] Side A (part 11)
But is there something about the discount market that women tend not to come into it in the
first place?
I suppose...I suppose that’s right. I think...they don't seem to have come into the discount
market. Is it the old top hat image and things? I don't know. Is it a sort of male preserve? I
don’t know. But I mean, let’s take someone like Merlyn Lowther in the Bank of England,
who is immensely able, and I still think that one day she might get very high in the Bank of
England.
To Governorship?
No, I don’t think she will become the Governor. (laughing)
Why not?
Well I think she is terribly good but I don’t think she will become the Governor. I mean
you've got to be so exceptional to get to that stage. But I think that she is the sort of person
who could well go on the Court of the Bank of England, and she has got the experience of
working with the discount market, the foreign exchange side, the gilt-edged side, and she’s
held lots of quite important positions in the Bank. But I mean, Merlyn Lowther, if she had
been in Gerrard & National I would be surprised if she wasn’t a director of the main board, I
mean a member of the main board.
But you wouldn’t expect her to be chairman?
Not while I was there! No, I don’t mean that seriously. I would be surprised if she became
chairman, yes. I mean someone like Brian Williamson is a pretty able person, so I think...
Could you imagine there being a female head of the Bank of England, Governor?
I can actually, I think it’s...I think it’s possible.
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And Brian was already in the firm when you became Chairman, or not?
Brian, I think I did...did I tell you this a long time ago, that when I was at Millfield, the fellow
who got me through geography at O'level, did I tell you about that man called John Paxton?
I think you told me when I came to see you initially but we haven’t talked about it on the tape.
You haven’t talked about it on the tape. But he was rather a friend of mine, and I fractured
my leg, not badly but sort of hairline fracture, anyway I couldn’t play games for two months
and it was during the point to point season, and he had an Austin 7 and I used to go off with
John Paxton, who was the master and I was very much the pupil, to point to points at Larkhill
and various places, and I got to know him very well, and liked him a lot. Anyway, when I
left Millfield he...it was a sad day; I suppose we’ll...well we’ll meet again sometime. ‘Why
don’t we meet every three years for dinner, as a plan?’ And so I said, ‘What a marvellous
idea.’ And in actual fact we’ve met on average I would think every five years, so we’ve had
seven dinners over the last thirty-five or so years, forty years. And at one of those dinners he
said to me, ‘I know a young chap who works for Maurice Macmillan, and advises him on
balance of payments and things like that. He’s a sort of economist, never had a proper job; he
was president of the union at Trinity Dublin, and he’s a very good man and I like him. He’s
Irish, a bit wild, but he’s... Anyway, the point is, he has never seen the sharp end of the City
of London; it's all theory with him, and I would like to see him at the sharp end of the City of
London, any chance of you taking him for a fortnight?’ So I said certainly, so we took him
for a fortnight, and we sent him off to, I think we sent him to de Zoete’s, in fact I know we
sent him to de Zoete’s, and to Mullens for a fortnight each, and when he came back I said to
him, ‘Where do you want to go now?’ and he said, ‘There’s no chance of staying here, is
there?’ So I said, ‘What a frightfully good idea.’ And so he stayed, and then he became
Chairman.
What was your first impression of him?
Very much more intelligent than some of us. I think I have to say that Robert Elkington is
extremely intelligent, but quite a lot of us are more gut feel individuals. And he was certainly
very intelligent, and a theorist: we didn't have many theorists around, and a delightful person.
He was obviously going to fit in, so we gave it a whirl.
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Because it was quite a risk in a sense that he wasn't from a City background, he was from a
completely different...
Well I think that was a good thing, that was a good thing, and he didn’t know the City and he
didn’t understand the City at that stage, and he found it all very stimulating and he
immediately became a major contributor.
And what level did he come in at?
Oh I mean just as a glorified clerk I suppose, and he worked in various sides of the business,
and became a director when he was quite young. I honestly don’t remember but I would say
thirty or thirty-one, something like that.
And what has his particular contribution been? I mean when he joined the directors, what
changed, what was added?
He is held in high regard by very senior people in, whether it’s in the political world or the
Treasury, or the business world. I remember George Blunden when he was Deputy Governor
went off to tour, I think it was Kuwait and various countries in that area, and there were six of
them, a party of six, and George Blunden was in charge. And George Blunden does not dole
out praise in large dollops, if ever, and he came and had lunch with us when he had come
back and Brian wasn’t there, and he said, ‘You know, quite honestly there was not much
point in the other five of us going. Whether it was on oil, whether it was on sugar, whether it
was on interest rates, whether it was on the political scene, whatever subject it was, Brian was
quite capable of answering any question that was put to him.’ He said, ‘A very impressive
individual.’ So, I think that answers your question.
Does it make any difference, because the other thing about Brian he’s got a sort of...he’s
handsome and he’s got a sort of faintly actorish...
Is he? I’ve never noticed that.
Really? He's got a very...a slightly actorish air about him. I mean he’s very confident...
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Yes.
And the way he approaches himself almost. Does that matter? Is that part of what makes
somebody good in the City?
He appears to be I think more confident than sometimes he actually is, I think that’s what he
would say about himself. But he does appear to be very confident, and he is a most
impressive person debating with anyone at any level, and he does it with considerable charm.
Sometimes if he violently disagrees with his debating friend he gets quite strong, quite strong,
but I wouldn’t say that he gets angry, but he shows that he could get angry.
And how is that? I mean is he somebody who goes white and quiet, and biting, or is it his
stare, or...?
I think he probably goes a little bit white, and says rather less than he usually does for a
minute or two. It doesn’t last long, but you know where you are.
Have you the slightest idea what Mrs Thatcher thought of him?
Well if Mrs Thatcher thought he...I would guess that Mrs Thatcher was very impressed with
him, I would guess. And probably slightly irritated from time to time, because he would not
be shy about saying that he thought that interest rates should have fallen sharply or risen
sharply, or whatever it was, when the authorities and she had done the opposite. I mean he
wouldn't be shy about that at all, he would say exactly what he thought. He would wrap it up
in civilised language, but if there was any doubt as to what he was saying that language
would fall away and he would make it crystal clear.
And what were your dealings with Mrs Thatcher? Did you come against her every now and
then?
My dealings with Mrs Thatcher were limited, I think we can safely say. I met her several
times, and I once went to lunch at No. 10 Downing Street, where eight of us were asked to
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lunch from the City, and we were meant to be those who knew what was going on in the
interest rate world.
Who were the other seven?
Who were the other seven. Well Bobby Henderson, Chairman of Kleinworts was one, and
Robert Clarke of Hill Samuel was another, Bill Mackworth-Young who died shortly
afterwards was a further one, John Ashburton was there, and the Chairman of Rea Brothers,
Walter Salamon, was also there. There may have been two...I think that’s actually about the
full team, and she had three advisers with her, and there were twelve of us. Denis wasn’t
there. And we arrived, we were asked one for 1.15 and we arrived at eight minutes past like
any well-trained person would, and it was rather like you know, all going to face the
headmistress I think really. We were a little bit apprehensive as to how it was going to work.
And we had a quick drink and she arrived at about fourteen minutes past one and whisked us
straight into lunch, and as we were standing by our places I luckily had Walter Salamon in
between the Prime Minister and myself so I was pretty well protected, anyway she said – she
and Denis Thatcher had been in the Falklands the previous week and interest rates had gone
up one per cent while they were away – and she said, ‘Just before we sit down gentlemen,
there are two things I would like to say. First of all I’m very grateful to you all for sparing
the time to come and have lunch with me in Downing Street today, and secondly, if I had
been in the country last Thursday interest rates would not have gone up.’ Well you could
hear a pin drop! You've never seen sort of eight so-called well-informed individuals,
relatively mature individuals, go sort of quiet; we were pretty quiet already but we were
certainly quiet after that. Anyway the lunch was a bit stilted for the first five minutes, and
John Baring, now Ashburton, was opposite the Prime Minister and obviously knew her well,
and she said, ‘John, you all seem rather quiet,’ and John Baring said, ‘Well, after that start
Prime Minister, you know, it’s really not surprising is it?’ with a slight twinkle. And she
said, ‘What start?’ ‘Well telling us that if you had been here last week you wouldn’t have
allowed interest rates to go up.’ ‘Well,’ she said, ‘I wouldn’t.’ Anyway, it was actually a
delightful lunch and it went on till about quarter to three, and we were encouraged to say
exactly what we wanted, and we even discussed the timing of the next general election et
cetera et cetera, it was a most enjoyable occasion.
And what did you think she was trying to glean from it, what was the purpose of it?
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I think what she was trying to find out, whether there were some links in the City that her
office might establish, you know, in addition to the contacts of the Bank of England, and
whether that was right or not I don’t know. But I did write to her afterwards to thank her, and
I don’t remember the two points I made, and I think that’s probably just as well I don't, but I
made two points in my letter and one of her private secretaries telephoned me the next day
and said, ‘Mr Gibbs, the Prime Minister was most grateful for your letter, and of the two
points you mentioned she wasn’t particularly interested in the first, in fact obviously she
wasn’t interested at all, but the second she was interested in, and I would just like to have a
word with you about that at some stage.’ And so I went round and had a quarter of an hour
chat. It was something to do about contact with the clearing banks and things like that, but I
can’t remember what it was, but it was interesting to me that obviously her secretary who
read the letter said he’s made two points, do you know what they are, and...anyway, she
followed up on one.
And did you feel that she listened to what you said?
Well she certainly must have done. I mean she...yes, I think she did listen, I think she
listened to what we all said. I mean she was on receive, which is not always the impression
she gives, but she was certainly prepared to listen, and interested in what we had to say. And
we weren’t slapped down at any stage after the, you know, the initial rebuff.
And you felt she understood what was being said as well, that she had a grasp of what it was
about?
I think she understood...I think she understood ninety per cent of it. I don’t think she
understood it all actually.
Is she the sort of person who wouldn’t say, I don’t understand that, what do you mean, or
would she?
No she...well I think that if she thought it mattered she would say look, what does that mean.
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And, from anything that happened subsequently, did you get the feeling that anything had
changed from after she had listened to you all; was anything carried through?
I don’t think I could possibly say that anything changed as a result of our lunch, but it was an
interesting occasion.
And was it of business use to you any information about the General Election, or was it too
vague?
It was a big vague. I mean she said that...I mean it was about nine months before the Election
happened, and I think it was a June Election that was the one that actually came to pass, and I
do remember John Baring saying, ‘Well Prime Minister, of course if I was in your shoes I
would cut and run and go in March,’ and that slightly provoked her, and it was a marvellous
thing to say! (laughs)
And did you actually like her?
Well you couldn’t dislike her. She was friendly, she was actually warm, she...you know, she
was very friendly indeed actually, very friendly. She was in good form. I think having come
back from the Falklands, I mean I think they had a very successful week there, or whatever it
was, few days there, and I think she was very pleased. She was in good order.
And were you shocked at the way her career ended?
I was very saddened, yes I was very sad. I mean I think that it’s quite clear she brought it on
herself, but I think it was a very sad occasion, and that sadness was diluted in a major way by
her marvellous speech in the Commons that afternoon. I mean I think that is...I think that is
one of the more remarkable performances I've ever seen.
But the whole way in which Gerrard & National is run and its team effort and its family feel
almost, could hardly be more in contrast to the way Mrs Thatcher ran life.
I think Mrs Thatcher would have approved of the way Gerrard & National was run, and the
fact that we all liked each other was a bonus. But it was run quite aggressively.
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But in your chairmanship time, was it still you taking the final decision all the time? Did that
alter at all or was it...?
Oh yes, I mean if there wasn’t agreement, yes. I think that if you asked them, I think they
would...I mean one or two of them would say that I was a bit too enthusiastic in the market
place and was pushing the boat out a bit too far on the bull tack or the bear tack, whichever it
happened to be. One or two would say that I was a money maker who made quite a few
mistakes which cost quite a lot of money on occasions, but overall worked out pretty well.
But we usually agreed, we usually agreed; not always, but if we didn’t obviously one took the
decision. But it was always tempered by what others had said.
But on the whole you think Mrs Thatcher was a good thing do you?
Do I think Mrs Thatcher was a good thing. I think Mrs Thatcher was a marvellous thing for
quite a while, but then I think it all went slightly wrong, and like in so many cases, I mean
she should have gone two years earlier.
But aren't we now, all the sort of terrible problems that are hitting the country aren’t they
really her legacy?
I don’t think so, no. I think quite honestly some of the recent problems have been selfinflicted. I mean I do think the handling of, well let’s just take interest rates and the ERM,
over this past nine months I mean I really think it's been very poorly handled. And to keep
interest rates at ten per cent for as long as we did, purely to stay in the ERM, was quite
ludicrous, and how we expected to stay in the ERM on the same basis as we had been there
when our performance is not as good as others, I mean it just doesn’t...it doesn't work, and I
think that it was a great pity to say that we would not consider re-alignment within the ERM,
it was a great mistake. And anyway we had this entrenched position of having high interest
rates to keep sterling there, and ten per cent interest rates as we know, with hindsight
admittedly but it looked pretty stupid at the time, with hindsight I mean it was absolutely
ridiculous to have had them at ten per cent, and now they’re six per cent going on five per
cent, and that’s a much more appropriate level. But a lot of damage was done by having high
interest rates for too long.
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And did you have personal contact at all with John Major? Did you meet him?
I've met John Major I suppose sort of four or five times, but I’ve never had a lengthy
conversation with him, but I've met him at Highbury and at Lord’s, and at the Oval. Sounds
all rather sporty doesn’t it, but...and I’ve seen him at obviously dinners and things, and met
him briefly, but I don’t know him well.
But do you think he understands the City at all?
I think he understands people, and I think that...I think he appreciates the City, and I mean
you know, he was there for quite a while, so... I think he understands the City, yes; I do think
he understands the City.
And going back to your time as Chairman, did you ever have to fire anybody?
Yes.
And how would you approach that? Would you lie awake the night before thinking how
awful it was going to be, or what?
No. No, funnily enough not. I would think I can only have sacked three or four people, and
it was...in one case, you know, a chap had gone off the rails and it was much better that he
moved on to something else very quickly. I mean it was never very pleasant. But I would not
have been good at running a firm over the last three or four years, when so many institutions
in the City have been contracting and systematically having to get rid of twenty-seven people
one month and then six months later another thirty-five. I’m afraid I wouldn’t have been
good at that. Not tough enough. I mean if it was...if it was someone who has been dishonest,
or...and I'm not saying that that sort of thing ever occurred, but if someone had been
dishonest, or had not tried, fine, I'm very good at sacking those sort of people, who had let the
side down, but people who had been trying and been doing an adequate job, but the firm was
shrinking, I would find that very difficult.
And did you have the same secretary throughout most of your time at Gerrards, or...?
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I had a wonderful secretary who came to Kenneth Whitaker about eighteen months before he
retired, and I was in there for the interview, and she's called Cecilia Greiff, and quite a
formidable lady, and she said to Kenneth Whitaker, ‘Well that seems fine,’ and he said,
‘Have you got any further questions?’ She said, ‘Yes I've got one, who will be succeeding
you?’ He said, ‘Well I hadn’t even thought of retiring.’ ‘No, but you obviously will one day;
who will be succeeding you?’ And Kenneth Whitaker very weakly said, ‘Well it could be
Roger Gibbs.’ ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘well that’s fine.’ And anyway, she worked for me for the
whole time I was Chairman. I mean she was more a personal assistant and bodyguard than
secretary. She’s a wonderful person, and when I raised that money for Guy's Hospital, for
that body scanner and did the London Marathon, she deserves just as much credit if not more
than me; I mean she was so efficient, she worked all hours getting these letters out, and you
know, once she rang me up on holiday, which she would never do normally, and she said, ‘I
just can’t resist ringing up. We got a cheque for œ10,000 from so-and so,’ what it was, and
she said, ‘I thought you would like to know.’ She entered in the spirit of everything, and you
couldn't ask for a...you couldn’t have asked for more from any secretary.
And is she still working?
She is retired to Angmering-on-Sea, and she and her husband Malcolm have a very nice sort
of rambling bungalow – I suppose it’s a bungalow, it’s a jolly nice house anyway, and a
lovely garden, and I gather that she is running most of the local things at Angmering-on-Sea,
which, they're jolly lucky to have her. She had Croydon under control at one stage as well as
Gerrard & National. But she was the sort of person, you know, who would remember friends'
birthdays and...I don’t know, any sort of interesting tit-bits, and she would take a great
interest in what we all did, and she was splendid.
And you are in touch with her still?
Certainly, very much so.
And can you just give me a sort of thumb-nail sketch of what the chairman's day was?
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Well, I used to get there I suppose quarter to eight was the sort of norm, certainly not later
than eight o’clock, and we had our...I would talk to Henry probably for five or ten minutes, if
I could hold his attention that long at some stage, 8.15, 8.30 or something, and we used to
have our morning meeting at 9.15, so it was probably, I think it was brought forward to about
8.30 I think we had the morning meeting, but that had varied over the years. But by that time
the Henrys of this world would have talked to the, you know, those in the dealing room and
quite a few people outside, and clients, and got a feel of what was going on, and then we
would have a discussion with the executive directors. And at one stage we used to then bring
in, you know, before that meeting we would have sort of ten minutes on our own and then we
would bring in the dealers, and go through things with them and listen to what they had to
say. But a sort of different and a rather more sophisticated system evolved, and it was really
Henry and the like reporting to the dealers what had gone on at our meeting, and the whole
thing was much more quick-fire. So we would have that, and I suppose I would then go into
the dealing room and see how things were going, then go back to my room, and...there's
always quite a lot of reading to do, and the telephone would ring fairly incessantly, whether
me ringing out to various friends in the City or them ringing in to me, and I might have a
conversation with someone at the Bank of England, setting up meetings and...oh the usual
things that happen in a business. But there was always plenty of action going on. I think the
fact that I had a separate room from the executive directors, I mean they used to scarper to the
dealing area for most of the morning, but they would come in in dribs and drabs and discuss
things with me. I was really more chief executive than a chairman I would think.
And what would happen, when would the day end?
The day would...I suppose the day would end discount market wise really by about five
o’clock, but I would seldom leave before about 6.30 because one would be doing, whether it
would be private things, or things that couldn’t be done during the day. It’s very difficult to
describe what a day was like. I mean you had visitors from outside, there were various
internal meetings, but the day flew past because you know, we were all watching our screens
and something would happen to the Deutschmark or whatever and then we would all get
together in a huddle, and then we would desperately ring round to various contacts and find
out what they thought, and it’s...it’s an active day.
Was it a pressure, were you anxious, were you...?
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Yes. We used to take, I mean anyone in that sort of market place would take a very major
position in front of the trade figures or whatever from time to time, so you would, you know,
be agonizingly waiting for 11.30, and expecting a deficit on current account of say 200
million and it turns out to be 1.4 billion and you’re on the wrong tack, and the unravelling
that has to go on. Sometimes you get it very right, and obviously it's a wonderful feeling
when that happens. But you're on edge, the stakes are very high. If you’re running a very
highly-geared business on behalf of your shareholders, you’ve simply got to get it right more
often than not.
And how did you cope with that sort of tension?
I think that we were particularly good at that. If we got it wrong and we thought it was going
to get worse we would cut immediately. We were very good cutters. I mean it cost us quite a
lot of money on occasions but we would cut, and we wouldn’t say what idiots, you know,
what an idiot so-and-so was, and this, that. We would have our post mortems but they would
be constructive ones only, and nobody would ever say, ‘Henry, if you hadn’t said that we
wouldn’t have done...’ or whatever; they never did that, ever. And that is one of the reasons
the whole thing worked so well. We all knew our own frailties, and possibly the frailties of,
the rare ones in our colleagues, but we always aimed off a bit for all that, and we worked as a
team.
[End of F3124 Side A]
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C409/086 Tape 6 Side B (part 12)
Tape 6 [F3124] Side B (part 12)
But did you get terribly tired and need great holidays, and sort of stagger towards
them like an oasis, or not?
We took longish holidays. I said when I joined Gerrard & National that...this was a
real stumbling block with Kenneth Whitaker. I said, ‘What about holidays?’ He said,
‘Well nobody needs holidays, but we do have...I think they take four weeks.’ So I
said, ‘Well I take six weeks, and I would want to take six weeks.’ He said, ‘Well you
can’t if you come here.’ So I said, ‘Well, you know, I mean I know you have good
reasons for saying that four weeks is enough, but I think if people do work very hard
that it’s a great mistake not to have decent holidays.’ He said, ‘Well I’ve never
needed a holiday. I once had a holiday and I went on a boat in the West Indies and I
hated it so I haven't been on holiday since.’ I said, ‘Well yes, but that’s your choice.
I’m afraid I’m a six-week man, and I really think everyone should have six weeks
who is in an executive position.’ Anyway he gave in in the end.
So you got it, or everybody got it?
We all got it. Oh no, it was...no, we all got it. And if someone you know, needed a
bit more than six weeks he would have got it.
But were you sort of desperate as your holiday approached, were you on your knees
with fatigue by that stage?
No, but I found that every time one went on holiday, always that last day you know,
unexpected things would crop up, and it was always a bit of a struggle getting away.
But I think in a dealing business it always is a struggle getting away.
And when you went on holiday would you completely be able to leave it behind, or
not?
No.
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So would you ring, what would happen?
I would drive miles for the `Financial Times', or even the Daily Mail! (laughs)
And what was happening in your private life during the time of chairmanship, or were
you...was your job so amalgamated with your life you couldn’t separate the two?
I think that I’ve enjoyed my business life throughout, you know, from the age of
nineteen up to fifty-eight enormously, and I’ve had a most enjoyable private life, but
it’s shall we say been less complicated than it might have been, I think because I’ve
had such an incredibly satisfying business life.
So in the times you were Chairman, would there be quite often City functions in the
evening?
Yes, the endless cocktail parties. A few dinners, but endless cocktail parties. So, I
mean I would go off to the country, you know, to stay with friends most weekends in
those days, so you only had four nights - well, I mean Sunday night I came back, but I
mean you could do things on the Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday and that was
really about it. Certainly one would be taken up with some business thing or other,
maybe two, and the other two when one was younger I always used to go out, you
know, but as one has grown older probably go out for one and stay in for the other.
And did you enjoy the City evening things, or were they a chore?
Oh no, I mean I...I mean if you’re fortunate enough to go to the Annual Bankers’
Dinner at the Mansion House, you know there are those who say, ‘Oh, not again!’ I
was always thrilled to go. I found those sort of occasions stimulating and amusing; I
never found any of those things boring, because always you were sitting next to
someone who was...well even if you sat next to someone who was a bit boring it was
great fun trying to wind them up. But I enjoyed all those occasions a lot, and I loved
the Mansion House dinners, and I think, you know, hearing the Chancellor and the
Governor and the Chairman of the Stock Exchange, the Chairman of Lloyds speaking,
I don’t know, you know, you’re involved in that world and I think it’s good fun.
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And when you would go away for the weekend would these be people also connected
with the City? Would half your conversation be about the City?
Yes, but you see the women stopped that at weekends, and so one has to sort of pick
one's moment, but of course some of the conversation was about the City. But there
are many other things in life. But going back to the Mansion House, I think the
seating plan was always pretty well done, and presumably the Bank of England had a
part in that. The great thing was to, you know, get to the top table eventually. And I
can't remember whether it was...what the tables were called, but anyway, you start at
the wings and you eventually, gradually get into the centre, and then you get higher up
the centre, and then eventually you get to the top table. And I think I went to, I
suppose I must have gone to eight Mansion House dinners, something like that, and
anyway after six there I was, sort of pretty close to the top of the centre table, and the
next step was bound to be the top table, and so I looked forward to the next one, and I
found myself right out on the wings again! (laughs) Obviously I was getting a little
bit too cocky for the chap who did the seating plan, so I was put back to square one.
But they were great evenings actually, great evenings.
And do you still get involved almost to the same extent, do you...or...?
I don’t at all. I mean I think once you are out of the day-to-day City situation you just
don’t get asked.
So do you miss it?
I mean you know, I like going back to have lunch with people in the City, and I think
that if I was asked to go to the Mansion House dinner which, it’s for bankers and
merchants, it's not for charitable people, and although we're the largest grant-giving
charity in the world I don’t think that actually qualifies one for being asked to the
Bankers’ Dinner. But I mean, I would enjoy those sort of things if one was asked,
yes.
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And during the time you were Chairman, presumably you weren’t also trying to run
your house. I mean what did you do about things like laundry and Saturday lunch
and...oh well you went away for the weekend, but evenings when you didn’t go out,
what was happening?
If I was in London I would be inclined to go and do my shopping first thing on
Saturday morning; I mean I would sometimes go to a wonderful fish place in Soho
and...but more often in Sloane Avenue, a place called La Maree, wonderful fresh fish,
and then go to Chelsea Green and buy some vegetables and fruit, and whatever. And
so I would do that first thing on a Saturday morning myself. But I’ve always had a
housekeeper, because being a bachelor, I mean you can’t I don’t think work quite hard
and run a house as well, you just simply can’t do it, and... But I enjoy shopping.
When I go on holiday abroad I love shopping.
And do you cook at all?
Very bad, I mean obviously like most men extremely good at scrambled eggs and
that’s about as far as it goes.
And we talked about you moving to this house, but we haven’t described the house at
all. Could you just give a sort of sketch of your house?
This house? Well it's much larger than is necessary for a bachelor, but it is...I mean as
you know, coming down The Little Boltons, I mean if you go straight on going south
you would come into this house, and it fills the gap between Cathcart Road and The
Little Boltons, and this gap was filled with this house 140 years ago. So it’s an odd
shape and it’s one-and-a-half fronted, and this is the main room, as you can see it’s,
you know, it sort of sticks out in one place, and it goes out onto the terrace which
leads down to a garden that is about eighty feet long and thirty-five feet wide. And if
this was on the market, which it never will be while I’m alive, it’s got so-called seven
bedrooms and four recep., that’s what it said when I bought it, and that’s about right.
It’s quite a rambling house, and it's got a lovely garden room that goes the length of
the house, and it’s...I enjoy it very much. And at weekends I can sit in the chair that
you’re sitting in and just look over my shoulder and see nothing but trees – this is in
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the summer – and look out there and see exactly the same. I mean it’s a false
impression but it’s a jolly nice one.
And are all the rooms in use, or...?
Oh yes, the whole place is in use. And it’s really...I mean I'm a member of a large
family, and for instance my eldest brother and his wife and children live in Australia,
and they come here certainly twice a year, and will be here for two or three weeks at a
time. It’s a sort of family base.
And is it quite hard, if you're used to solitariness, having your relatives suddenly there
for two weeks? It would drive me mad.
I'm very good on my own for a while, but I’m not.....[break in recording – person
entering room]
We were actually talking about how difficult it might be having people staying with
you.
Exactly! (laughing) No, I like being on my own for short periods of time and, I mean
take this weekend for instance, I’m doing a sort of draft of our Chairman’s Statement
at Wellcome for our annual report, and there are two appeals that I'm trying to launch,
not for vast sums of money, one of the Arundel Castle Cricket Foundation, which has
now, over the last seven years given cricket coaching to more than 50,000 young
children of all types, sizes and backgrounds, and the other is to re-do a part of
Peterhouse School in Zimbabwe in memory of my Uncle Humphrey, who was
Governor of Southern Rhodesia. And anyway, I’m trying to do the sort of final sort
of titivating of those appeal packages, and obviously quite a lot of other things, but I
just want to be left alone for Saturday and Sunday, and I’m going to be, hopefully.
And I tell people, you know, I’m seldom in London at weekends, but sometimes I am.
But when your Australian relatives come for instance, do you just give up for two
weeks and enjoy their presence, or are you actually trying to have time on your own
at the same time?
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Well they treat this as a hotel, and they’ve got masses of friends to see, and
sometimes, I mean they have people in for drinks, or supper, or whatever it is, and
sometimes I join them and sometimes I don’t. But I'm absolutely ruthless, if there is
something going on that I don’t want to get involved in, because I’ve got work to do, I
mean I’ll go up to my bedroom and do it there, or study upstairs.
And if you have a housekeeper, do you sometimes give dinner parties here with her
cooking, or...?
Yes, not often, not often; I should much more often, but occasionally, yes.
And are there any other staff for the house and garden?
No. Oh well, no, the arrangement is that there are two great friends, Robin and Clare
Denison-Pender, and she's a very good gardener, and they have the top floor – well,
they have a room at the top, and they’re here I should think on average probably one
or two nights a week; that in the winter, and not much in the summer. But she does
the garden, and that’s a part of the rent, and some fresh eggs on a regular basis. But
no, it's...and there is a very nice lady called Ophelia, who works for the people next
door, and actually lives next door, and she comes in and helps Mrs Crawford a bit you
know, but...on a part-time basis.
And did you ever consider buying a country house yourself?
No, I never did, because this is quite a substantial house, and I would just rather go
away for weekends and stay with great friends, and there are a few who are prepared
to put up with me on a regular basis. And I don’t want...it would be too much of a tie
quite honestly; I like to be free.
And, going back to the years when you were Chairman of Gerrard, was that when
Gerrard began to acquire other companies, like Laurie Millbank?
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Well, that was after I left. I suppose our main acquisitions were taking control of
Murray Jones, which became Astley & Pearce, and then we sold it – well we owned
virtually all of it. And then the other one would have been, well the other two would
have been GNI, Mark Davies’ and Christopher Sharples’ firm, and we bought seventy
per cent in the end of that, and that was certainly done, I did the negotiations for that.
And Gerrard, Vivian Gray, Vivian Gray the stockbroker which we bought on the
evening of the ’87 election, which we bought for very little, and we put great...well,
we’ve put considerable sums into it since but it's turned out very well, as has GNI,
both have turned out very well.
But what was the thinking behind that, that you had to expand, or what was
happening?
Well we wanted to diversify into companies that, businesses that were possibly contra
cyclical to us, and had more stable earnings. I mean the earnings of Gerrard &
National have been in the past pretty volatile, and I mean when interest rates went up
very sharply over one particular year we did make a small amount of money, but you
couldn't make decent sums of money in those conditions. So it was really to get more
stable earnings, and dare I say it, some would say higher quality earnings.
And, we’ve said that under your chairmanship the firm became the leading discount
house. Is there anything else we should talk about that happened particularly during
your years that was to do with the shifts in the City, or shifts in Gerrards?
Well I think that when Gerrard & National became Gerrard & National, when Gerrard
& Reid did the sort of reverse takeover of the National Discount in 1969, we know
that the assets of the new Gerrard & National were 12.4 per cent of the London
Discount Market Association. It is very difficult to work out precisely what the top
figure was, but I would say in the early Eighties it got very close to forty per cent, and
that was all natural growth. It then probably fell back a bit, but now it is higher than
40 per cent, partly because some of the rivals have not done at all well, but also partly
because Gerrard & National has done very well. I mean its market capitalisation now
is in excess of £150 million, which I know is not huge, but it was down at as little as
ten million in 1973 so it’s, you know, it’s done well.
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Speaking of figures, we had said you had taken a great big drop in pay when you left
de Zoete; by becoming Chairman did you get yourself up to the level you would have
been at had you not made that move?
I think I can say that although my initial salary at Gerrard & National was just twentyfive per cent of my earnings in the previous year with de Zoete’s, I think which was
much more appropriate actually, the smaller figure was more appropriate, it rose to
figures that were, from my point of view immensely satisfactory, and they were very
generous, I was very generously treated.
And, what’s the...can you just give me a little idea of the difference in character of
some of the other discount houses? I mean what is the characteristics of the Union
Discount and Cater or whatever it's called?
Well the Union always were the leader, and as I said earlier we either overtook them
in 1979 or in the early Eighties, I really don’t know which, but they were the leader
for close on a hundred years, their first hundred years, and they were...they had a
tremendous reputation. But of course with all these other very large international
institutions coming in to London, the sort of, the position of the Union became less
important, and as we know only too well they've had a lot of bad luck in the last
couple of years, and now they’re rather a shadow of their former selves. But they
were the top dog, and the really high quality house. We were considered by some,
quite wrongly of course but I would say that wouldn't I, upstarts, albeit rather
enterprising, go-ahead upstarts. But then, Gerrards have now become much larger
than the other traditional houses, much larger.
When you say that Union had bad luck, are you just being kind? I mean have they
made wrong decisions?
Well they made wrong decisions, but you know, it's quite easy to make bad decisions
in highly volatile markets, and they...yes, I mean they've...I'd like to leave it that I
think they’ve been very unlucky, but it’s made a major impact.
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And what about...it is called Cater Allen?
Cater Allen. Cater Allen happens to be run by someone who is rather a friend of
mine, called James Barclay; in fact actually most of the bill brokers are friends, but he
is a particularly good friend, and I hope he never ever listens to this, but I would have
to say that in my last three years as Chairman of Gerrard & National we were
outmanoeuvred by Cater Allen, and that's now been put right of course by my
successors. But they are a very good firm, very good firm, and their diversification,
and I think their quick-wittedness stood them in good stead. And there was one year
that I remember vividly when their profits were higher than ours, although we were
probably three times their size. Not very good for morale, but it couldn’t happen to a
nicer firm.
And what about some of the others. I can’t even remember their names.
Well the others, there are only two other quoted companies - sorry, there’s not two
others, there’s only one other quoted company, and that’s King & Shaxson, which is
much smaller, and King & Shaxson have, apart from having a considerable sadness,
which really was also very bad luck, there was a terribly nice fellow called Guthrie
who was killed in a car crash, and then Billy D’Abbans the Chairman died of cancer,
and he was, Billy must have been fifty, that sort of thing. And it’s a small firm and
those were two very key figures in it, particularly Billy who had been Chairman for
several years. So, they had their bad luck too, a different type of luck. But they’ve
survived, and they paddle on, and they've done quite well recently, which is nice. But
there were twelve quoted companies, and now there are only four.
And why is that?
Well, in the sort of run-up to Big Bang there was a lot of mergers, and some were
taken over. I mean for instance Citibank took over Seccombe Marshall & Campion,
and Pru-Bache took over Clive and you know, various other things.
And so did that make a big difference to the feel of working in the discount market or
not?
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Well I don’t know; you see I’ve not been working in the discount market on a day-today basis for nearly four years, so I’m really quite out of touch. But it’s a very
different world now, there’s less personal contact, there’s more looking at screens, it’s
more technical. And the houses and the...the houses are run by people who are similar
to those of the past, but slightly brushed up for the modern age. Yes, I think that is
true. But in the banks it’s a different type of person. I think they’re rather more
aggressive and abrasive in some of the banks then they used to be, and they used to be
very professional but very tough, but most of them had quite a lot of charm and they
were fun. I think that in some cases now one gathers they're less fun, but maybe the
City of London is less fun.
And, when you were thinking about who would succeed you, were there other
contenders or was Brian the sort of shining light?
Well, there were...when the Union Discount was looking around for a successor to
Graeme Gilchrist, and they decided they wanted to go outside rather than appoint
someone from inside, a head-hunter rang me up and asked about what I thought about
various names, and I said you know, what are the names, and he produced two names,
and I said, ‘Surely you’ve got others.’ He said, ‘Well there are four people at Gerrard
& National, but there's nobody else.’ And I think that would be true, there are
certainly...certainly four when I left who could have been appointed chairman. It was
convenient that three of them didn’t want to be, and one was told he had to be.
Why didn’t they want to be?
I think that they were very happy with their existing roles, and I think they all, in fact
I know that they all thought that Brian was, you know, was a natural for this particular
moment; some rather more than others maybe. But he was a natural, I mean he had
done a spell as Chairman of LIFFE and had done it extremely well, and he was very
much a figure already, you know, in the City, and it was a very obvious choice, there
was no surprise about it at all.
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And actually, given that when he was setting up LIFFE he must have been absent
from the office a lot, and also early on he had wanted to carry on a bit with politics,
did that ever matter? I mean it sounds as though you were terribly generous in letting
him go.
I don't think we were, I mean it’s... He did spend a bit of time on politics; he lost two
elections at Sheffield, was it Sheffield Wednesday, I think it was, I think it was
Sheffield Wednesday. But he fought them with great enthusiasm, and then he had a
spell down at Truro. I think that his political connections are actually quite useful to
Gerrard & National, have been over the years; he knows an awful lot of people in that
world.
In what way useful?
Well I think just getting, you know, the different views from different sectors. I mean
I don’t say that they’ve been better informed those views than from other sources, but
I mean it’s quite useful to know what MPs are thinking.
And, why did you stop, why did you stop being Chairman?
I stopped being Chairman because I had been Chairman for fourteen and a quarter
years, and after I had been Chairman for nine years I did say to my co-directors that
you know, I really felt the time was coming, and I should step aside, but they said
how ridiculous, you're not even fifty. Anyway, after quite a debate they did very
kindly say they would like me to stay on for another five years, and that I did. But I
knew, and they knew three years before I left that it was very likely I would be
Chairman of the Wellcome Trust at some stage in the future, so it came to the point
where my retirement from Gerrards, from Chairman of Gerrards, and my appointment
as Chairman of the Wellcome Trust, we actually did a joint statement and it was all
quite tidy that, and I think that was a good thing.
And was it very upsetting to leave?
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I was very sad, but extremely excited about the prospect of Wellcome, which has
actually turned out to be more stimulating and more exciting than even I could have
dared hope.
And, how did you go about handing over to Brian?
Well it was all agreed I suppose a year before, and quietly, you know; he did more
and more, I don’t think I did less and less, but it sounds as if I must have done, but he
was brought in to everything.
[end of session]
[End of F3124 Side B]
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C409/086 Tape 7 Side A (part 13)
Tape 7 [F3125] Side A (part 13)
Interview with Roger Gibbs at his home on the 20th of April 1993.
Before we move to Wellcome I wanted to ask you about your involvement with the Discount
Market Association. What is the significance of becoming a member of it in the first place,
and then I would like to look at your rise within it.
Well your company is a member of the London Discount Market Association, you aren't
yourself. And it used to be, it has actually varied tremendously between having one year or
two years as deputy chairman and then chairman, and you get to that stage if you have been
chairman of your company for say eight or ten years, I mean you're very likely to get into that
position. It's usually done, it used to be done on the chairman coming from a big house then
a small house, and do it alternatively, but now there are so few houses that you know, if
you've been around for a while you’re almost certain to be chairman of it.
And what's its function?
What’s its function. The London Discount Market Association, it is just a group of discount
houses, all the discount houses, and you know, they work together as an association. As
discount houses have been for a very long time the buffer between the Bank of England and
the banking system, and really looking after the liquidity in London, it’s very important that
the central bank, the Bank of England, liaises with them effectively, and therefore it is good
for them to be in an association and to have a chairman and deputy chairman who the Bank
can talk to direct.
So it really is only liaising in one direction?
I think the members have been a fairly disparate lot over the years, and having different rows
to hoe, and...I mean some were quite aggressive investors from time to time in government
securities, others avoided them like the plague and were more likely to sell them than buy
them, you know, wait for dodgy periods and then try and make money on the bear tack. But I
suppose the reason they were formed, or the association was formed, was because when there
was a Treasury bill tender, and the Government wanted to raise...it got up to about œ600
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million a week in the Seventies, they wanted that underwritten, I mean sort of guaranteed it
would be taken up each week, and so the discount houses used to meet every Friday and they
would agree an underwriting price amongst themselves, and then they would bid freely
against each other at the tender.
Right. And, how did your firm qualify to become a member, or do you have to achieve...?
Well you’ve got to be...I mean there were discount houses and running brokers; running
brokers were little chaps who dealt in bills for exchange and took a tiny turn on the way, and
that was what they really were, and they dealt in Treasury bills as well and probably
occasionally bought the odd little bit of gilt-edged, but they were small and they were outside
the Association, so you really graduated from being a running broker to being a fully-fledged
discount house and a member of the Association. A lot of them had been there forever,
people like Alexanders, the National Discount, the Union Discount, they were the original
companies, they were always known as ‘the companies’, and they were there from, really the
sort of middle to late part of the last century, and others came in gradually over a period.
Gerrard & Reid when they merged with the National Discount in 1969, they had actually
become a member I think it was in 1962, or they, they either went public in 1961 and became
a member in 1962 or vice versa, and so there was no problem when they merged, and the
reverse takeover of National took place in 1969. But you had to be respectable, and thought
worthwhile by the other members.
So was it a case that people would be applying for membership and being turned down, or
was it much more stable than that?
I think it was quite often that the running brokers, if they wanted to become a member of the
London Discount Market Association, they would chat up the other members, but they would
also make their case to the Bank of England and hope the Bank of England would say to the
Chairman of the Discount Market, what about considering Bloggs, and if the Bank of
England said consider Bloggs you probably accepted Bloggs, in those days anyway, you
know, it was as simple as that.
And where did these Friday meetings take place?
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They took place in my day, and for many years before that, in the offices of the Union
Discount, because the Union Discount was the largest discount house for a very long time, I
mean I would think for eighty years, ninety years, until Gerrard & National overtook them, I
would think in the late 1970s.
And was the general atmosphere amicable?
Not always. I mean I think it was fundamentally very cooperative, but superficially it...I
mean at times it was slightly tetchy, but those were rare occasions. I mean people were
talking their own books, and you know, protecting their own position, and maybe even trying
to bluff people too, and mislead would be too strong a word but it would probably be accurate
actually. Because you know, they wanted to give the impression they weren't the slightest bit
interested in taking any Treasury bills and then you would find that they had taken all 600
million at fourpence more aggressively than anyone else, you know, I mean it’s...it’s like
playing poker really. But over important things they cooperated a lot.
So, at those sorts of meetings there was a degree of bluff going on. Is the person who bluffs
best the person whose firm is the most powerful, or is it down to the person’s personality?
It’s down to the individual.
So is being an actor quite a good part of it?
I think it probably would be, I think it probably would be. I mean I remember someone
saying to me, I actually can’t remember who it was, he said, ‘You really do irritate me,
you’re always so cheerful.’ I always try to be cheerful when things were going badly,
because one didn't want anyone to, you know, find out that in actual fact you had been on the
wrong tack for several days in the market, because then they could take advantage of it.
And who were the best actors in the time you were there, who were the dominant characters?
Yourself presumably!
No, I don't think I would say that; I was probably as noisy as most. There was a fellow called
Tom Hohler, a rather portly gentleman who got an MC in the War, he was a very brave
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soldier, and he was a very cunning operator; he ran King & Shaxson, and he would...yes, he
would be as good, as shrewd a dealer as there was around in those days I would say. But I’m
really talking about the late Sixties, early Seventies. But they weren't that big. The Union
Discount who were considered to be the highest quality, but a bit predictable, actually
became much more cunning as the years went by, and some would say, even one of their
former managing directors, that it was entirely due to Gerrard & National that they did
become so cunning, they had to.
But they haven’t done very well recently, they obviously didn’t become cunning enough.
Well under Richard Petherbridge and Peter Lee, who must have run the Union for a decade
from, whether it was throughout the Seventies and a little bit of the early Eighties I can’t be
specific, but they ran it for a long time, and Richard Petherbridge was the very courteous,
diplomatic, good bill broker, and Peter Lee was...he wasn’t a disruptive influence at all, but
he was a stimulating influence, and he didn’t mind what he said to whoever, particularly me;
and they were very good foils for each other, it was very well run in those days. And although
we overtook them at that stage, I think in fairness it was because we took a very strong view
in late 1976, when we went in the hands of the International Monetary Fund and Mr Healey
and Lord Richardson turned back from the airport in that famous situation, and we just
simply took the view that sterling was bound to improve, because we weren't going to have
our affairs run by the powers that be internationally, and sterling did improve very sharply
and interest rates were allowed to fall equally sharply.
But most people didn’t take that view?
There was plenty of time to get in, and in late 1976 the Bank Rate was fifteen per cent, and
on the 7th of October 1977 it was five per cent, so there was an enormous bull run in giltedged, and we rode it through most of the way. And some people I think would say that we
were too cavalier, but we thought it was a marvellous opportunity. But of course we did
make some pretty bad mistakes judging interest rates at other times over the last twenty years.
And on these committees, in the end how was it decided, by vote or by who had the strongest
voice, or what?
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Well, I think that people did take into account the size of the house, and certainly at one stage
the Union Discount and Gerrard & National were sixty per cent of the market, and if you
included Cater Allen they would have been fifteen per cent. So the three houses were
seventy-five per cent of the market, and if those three houses felt very strongly one way the
others would fall into line, possibly with the exception of King & Shaxson who just liked to
make a point, but they would always come quietly in the end.
So presumably whoever was chairman would go and tell the Bank, so they would have the
final power.
Not because they were going to tell the Bank, but a strong chairman would I think get his
own way, yes.
And how long would these meetings last?
They varied, but they always started at, used to start at twelve o’clock, and then it was
brought forward to 11.45, possibly because we had more long-winded members at that
particular stage than previously. But in actual fact the business was becoming much more
complicated and there was more business to discuss and get through. And we wanted to
leave ourselves plenty of time before the Treasury bill tender at one o’clock, so we could get
back to our offices, discuss things with out colleagues, and then tender, and it had become a
bit of a rush with having the meeting at twelve so it was brought forward to 11.45.
And what sort of factors would influence people's decision about what they thought the rate
should be? I mean what would they take into account?
Well they would want to know how short money was going to be on each of the trading days
the following week; there will be factors like whether the Bundesbank was likely to reduce
rates the following Thursday, or housing starts in the United States as to whether the
economy there was, you know, drifting slowly down, or picking up sharply. I mean there are
so many different influences. Or whether sterling was over sold, and what people thought the
next move in interest rates in any part of the world was. I mean there were so many different
factors, and political factors and influences obviously.
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So you weren’t in any way having the same conversation every Friday; the factors were
always different.
There were usually, I would think there were usually five or six dominant factors, and I
would think every week one of those five or six was replaced by a new factor.
And during your chairmanship, how many people were on the committee roughly?
I think we were twelve houses, in fact I'm sure we were twelve houses, and I think we
became eleven half-way through. But it was that sort of figure. And we never had a vote
actually on anything; I used to ask people what they thought and I would tell them what I
thought the majority view was, and only once was I vehemently challenged, by Tom Hohler’s
stepson, who succeeded Tom Hohler as Chairman of King & Shaxson, who very sadly died
last year of cancer aged only fifty. But Billy D’Abbans he...he went quietly after an awful
flurry I remember. (laughs) He didn’t...when I gave up being Chairman he made the sort of
farewell speech at our meeting and he said, ‘There have been good chairmen, there have been
bad chairmen, and I have to say that you fall into the...well some would say the former
group.’ You know, I mean he just kept me on my toes! (laughing)
And when he challenged you would it have been very passionate?
Well passionate, in his case it would appear to be tremendously passionate, but those who
knew him well would appreciate that quite a lot of it was froth.
And were there sort of enmities or alliances that would be carried through from week to
week? Was there a sort of sub-text going on?
There were cliques yes. Well there were certain houses that thought the same; I mean I think
that Gerrard & National were considered a house to be, that would be very successful in bull
markets. Some people would say that they would be the sort of institution that might tend to
over trade as opposed to under trade. Then you would have the much more cautious Union
Discount in those days, and King & Shaxson. On the aggressive tack you would have I
would think Smith St. Aubyn and Allen Harvey, they would have a real go at almost
anything. There were I would think three camps, the ones that were permanently optimistic,
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or likely to be permanently optimistic, and on the other side the bears, and I think there were
two or three don’t knows in the middle, and they in the end just quietly withered away. You
have got to back your judgement, otherwise there's no point in being a bill broker.
But it was, the cliques were to do with business strategy as opposed to personal feelings?
Well the cliques were, if you have roughly the same philosophy business-wise you're much
more likely to get on as characters, and...yes, I think that that is certainly true.
Were there any women on this committee?
No, sadly not. There were some ladies in some discount houses; I mean there are some very
good talented women in several houses now, but you know they weren't given much of a
chance in those days: when I say those days I'm talking about sort of Sixties, Seventies and
Eighties - well Sixties and Seventies certainly. No, the straight answer is, there were no
women.
And are there any on the committee now?
I shouldn’t think so, no. I don’t know, but I mean I'm sure there aren’t, otherwise I would
have heard!
And when you say there are twelve members, is that one per house?
One per house.
So however strong a firm you were you never had another representative?
No. And you actually only had one vote, that’s why I was very keen on never having a vote.
Right. And before you went to this meeting would you have sat down and really thought
about your strategy or was it really all at your fingertips anyway?
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You were absolutely steeped in it. I mean when I said there are five or six dominant factors,
there are probably forty or fifty that make up your thinking at any one time, and...no, I mean
you don’t have to prepare for a meeting like that, it’s, you know, it’s all there.
And does it still work in the same way, does it still meet every Friday at Union?
It does. I don’t think it probably works in quite the same way, but I’m not really the person
to ask. I should think things are a bit quieter and a bit more predictable now.
And presumably if you were away someone would go and represent you.
Yes.
That was all right.
Yup, oh absolutely. You had three nominated people, and for the vast majority of my
chairmanship of Gerrard & National, which was what, fourteen years, Archie Eglinton and
Henry Askew were the other nominated members, but Brian Williamson and David Clarke
and Tommy Fellowes, and maybe David Brayshaw and Robert Elkington, I honestly don’t
know, but they, certainly three of those went to the meeting. I made, you know, special
requests and said you know, they had been a managing director for eight years, I would rather
like them to see what happens.
So what’s the point of becoming a director of the committee? What does that do to you?
Becoming one of the three nominated people?
Well it’s got on your CV you were appointed director...oh maybe that means appointed
director to Jessel Toynbee.
Yes, that’s all, that’s all.
Right, no that’s what was confusing me; I thought you had...
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No no no, no.
That you were a director of the Discount Market Association.
No no no.
Right.
No, you are either...you’re either your firm’s representative, or you are deputy chairman of it
or chairman of it, there’s nothing in between.
And was there any friction between the committee and the Bank of England ever?
Oh yes, certainly. I mean I think the...I would say almost throughout my period going to
those meetings, which was I suppose sixteen or seventeen years, I would think there were
probably four or five occasions when we vehemently disagreed with the Bank of England
over some issue or other. I mean it may be, I can give you one obvious example when the
Bank of England didn’t want us to bid aggressively for Treasury bills, the Treasury bill
tender, and they would say that they much prefer things to stay stable, or whatever. And we
would go out and we pay a much more aggressive price for the bills and get them all, in
competition with the outside tenderers, and we were doing that because we thought interest
rates were going to fall and the Bank of England were doing everything in their power to stop
them falling, and what we did was to really make certain they did fall, but we would take the
view that they were going to fall anyway and the Bank of England had not got control of the
market, and they didn't realise how bullish everyone was feeling internationally. So there
were moments of friction like that, and they used to get quite irritated in their extremely
polite, controlled way.
What would be an example of this irritation in a controlled way?
By, when we were short of money, making us borrow at penal rates. But of course that didn’t
matter if interest rates were coming down sharply; you didn’t mind a hoot if the Bank Rate
was ten per cent, paying twelve per cent for a week to hang on to a lot of five-year assets. In
fact it actually suited your book quite often, but we didn’t tell them that.
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And they didn’t work it out for themselves?
I’m sure they worked it out for themselves, but there was nothing else they could do.
And, is there anything else we ought to say about that committee?
I don’t think so. I mean what happened was, the chairman or the deputy chairman of the
Market, whoever was available, used to go round on a Thursday morning and see all the other
houses, then he would go down with his deputy, the deputy of the Market, or if he was away
a senior person from one of the other houses, to the Bank of England and see the Governor or
the Deputy Governor for a quarter of an hour, twenty minutes, and report anything of interest
that had been going on during the week, and then...you would very rarely get any response
from the Governor, it would be, you know, quite a cheerful friendly conversation - well it
would be a friendly conversation, it may not be cheerful but it would be friendly. And then
you report back to the twelve o’clock meeting on the Friday to the other houses, you know,
anything of significance.
Was this Gordon Richardson’s governorship during your time as Chairman?
I had...I think I had a year of, well I could tell you exactly.
I’m talking about Chairman of the committee, not of Gerrard.
Chairman of the Association. I would think...he retired on June 30th ’83, and I was ’82 to
’86, two years as Deputy and two years as Chairman. So I had a year of Lord Richardson,
and then three of Robin Leigh-Pemberton.
Anything more to add on that? Well I wondered then if we could finally get to the mighty
subject of the Wellcome Trust.
Oh the Wellcome, yes.
How did you come to be involved with it?
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I mean all these things are inclined, well not all these things, quite a lot of these things are
inclined to happen in rather odd ways, and the reason I became a trustee of the Wellcome
Trust on February 1st 1983 was because in 1980 George Blunden, who was not Deputy
Governor of the Bank of England at that stage but he was quite influential in the Bank and a
director, he rang me up and said to me, ‘You're very interested in the theatre.’ I mean I
obviously immediately smelt a rat and I said, ‘Certainly not.’ He said, ‘Well I've seen you at
Covent Garden, I've seen you at the Aldwych over the last two years. You are obviously
passionately interested in the theatre.’ So I said, ‘Well what do you want?’ He said, ‘Well
there’s a slight problem, and that is that Bernard Miles, who runs the Mermaid Theatre, he
and his wonderful wife have managed to get the Mermaid Theatre into financial difficulties,
and he has appealed, Bernard Miles has appealed to Gordon Richardson for a little bit of help,
and the best help that we feel the Bank can give is to get four people together who might sort
of move in there and see if they can sort out the finances. And you’re very fortunate, you’ve
been, you know, selected as one of the four; I may say the most junior of the four.’ So I said
well let me think about it. He said, ‘Well all you've got to decide is whether you want to be
chairman of the appeal committee or the finance committee.’ And I said, ‘I don't want to be
chairman of any committee to do with the Mermaid Theatre.’ He said, ‘Well you've just got
to make the choice.’ Anyway, I did choose the appeal committee, and we discovered very
soon that the finances were even worse than we feared, and there was no question of an
appeal or anything like that. And it took us three years under the chairmanship of Sir David
Steel, who was also put in by Gordon Richardson. And David Steel was Chairman of BP at
that time, and he happened to live half a mile short of where I live in the West End, and I
used to drive him back after meetings and we used to prattle about this that and the other, and
when we had had our last Mermaid meeting and we had raised the necessary funds, we had
paid off all the debts, and also left a little bit for a pension for Bernard and Josephine Miles,
and it was really quite a happy day and we all stepped down and a new team took over, and I
said to David Steel, ‘You must be absolutely delighted, you know, it’s a really satisfactory
afternoon.’ and he said, ‘Yes, and your next job...’ And I said, ‘I’m not doing any more
jobs.’ And he said, ‘Your next job is to be a trustee of the Wellcome Trust.’ And I said, ‘I
really can’t, honestly.’ And he said, ‘Well just listen to what I have to say for the next couple
of miles and then make up your mind.’ And that’s really how I became a trustee of the
Wellcome Trust.
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And what did he say for the next couple of miles?
Well one thing he did say was that his predecessor Lord Franks, Oliver Franks, who I
suppose was one of the most distinguished people in this country, and certainly one of the
most intelligent of the last thirty or forty years, he said that being Chairman of the Wellcome
Trust was quite easily the most interesting thing that he had ever done in his life. So, to be a
trustee was obviously going to be pretty stimulating. And the way the Wellcome is set up is,
in those days you had five scientific trustees and two lay trustees, and David Steel had
become a very good friend so he was going to be my boss and I was going to be the other
name, and so it was going to be very interesting, and as I had been very ill at one stage and
was interested in medical research, superficially so but I was interested in it, and interested in
money, and people in the medical research world don’t have an enormous knowledge of the
City of London and money, there might be a sort of interesting niche for me really.
Just before we leave it, who were the other people involved in the Mermaid with you, who
were the other three you were speaking of? David Steel was one.
Well Kenneth Cork, the great liquidator. Kenneth Cork was, as the boss of Cork Gully he
was very key, and doing his best for us all, and his number two, Michael Jordan was...Cork
Gully and Coopers & Lybrand, they were I think easily the most important contributors, apart
from David Steel. Christopher Reeves of Morgan Grenfell was also on it. There were some
interesting people from the theatre too. Susan Hampshire’s husband, Eddie...
Kulukundis.
Kulukundis, Eddie Kulukundis. It’s awful one remembers Susan Hampshire more than Eddie
Kulukundis but Eddie would forgive me. He was a wonderful influence too, and an
extremely good judge of what play was going to succeed and what was going to fail. And
there was one...Bernard Miles was never very good I don't think at choosing plays, although
he was a wonderful man in so many different ways, but I remember once when we had five
possibilities, and Bernard saying four of them were absolute certain successes, and I am just a
bit worried about the fifth, and then David Steel said to Eddie, ‘What do you think?’ He said,
‘I think the fifth has every chance of success, and I wouldn’t touch the other four with a
barge-pole.’ (laughs)
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And you took his view?
(laughing)
[End of F3125 Side A]
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Tape 7 [F3125] Side B (part 14)
What were the Cork Gully pair like?
I think they were so painstaking, and they gave up so much of their high fee earning time for
the Mermaid, I thought it was absolutely remarkable. And they got virtually no thanks from
Bernard; he thought they were frightful bores the way they were, you know, going into
details the whole time, but it was absolutely essential that this was done. But they did us very
well indeed.
Doesn't Kenneth Cork have a reputation for being extremely tough?
I think Kenneth Cork was extremely tough. I think that it has to be said he was very
congenial with it, if that’s possible. I liked him very much.
He’s still alive isn't he?
No, he died...I think he died last year.
Oh, I didn't realise that. Oh, is there anything else we should say about him, because he was
somebody I had in mind to interview.
Kenneth Cork? I really don’t know enough about him really to contribute much, except he
was great fun, and he looked on the amusing side of everything, and he got a very quick grasp
of a problem, and he would go to the nub of the matter in a flash. I should think he was
pretty determined, and he may have got fairly entrenched from time to time, but I would have
infinitely preferred to have Kenneth Cork on my side. He was very good.
And, I mean amongst the general public the idea of liquidators making money out of people’s
misfortune is pretty unattractive, but presumably it’s viewed quite differently in the City, it’s
viewed as something necessary.
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Oh yes, I mean they perform a most helpful role, I think a lot of people would say. And, I
mean when you’re sorting out some dreadful disaster, to have a brilliant brain who is also a
sympathetic human being, you know, they can be a great asset to have around.
And did you know Lord Franks personally?
I did, yes. I didn’t...I mean I didn’t know him that well; I had lunch, we had lunch together
from time to time, and I sat next to him at dinners, and that sort of thing. In fact the last time
I saw him for any length of time...he always used to come to any Wellcome thing that we
had, a farewell dinner for an assistant director, or whatever it was, I mean he would be there,
and absolutely wonderful, he was as loyal as they come. He said he only came because he
enjoyed it, but I think it was partly because he enjoyed it. But the last time I had a real
conversation with him was having lunch at the Randolph Hotel, it was just over two years
ago, and you know, I had only been Chairman of the Trust for a year, and I just wanted to tell
him what we had done since I took over from David Steel, and what we planned to do at
some stage in the future, such as consider selling some shares, and all those sort of things.
And we talked for...he was eighty-four at the time and we talked for, oh, fully two and a
quarter hours I should think, two and a quarter hours, and he then suddenly said, ‘I'm just a
little tired, so I think I am going home.’ And during that two and a quarter hours he told me
so much about his time at the Trust, and you know, what he thought about every aspect of it,
but he wouldn’t, which was slightly frustrating, say anything about future policy or...he said,
‘You know, I am so out of touch now; you're in touch, it’s for you to decide. You know, we
asked you to do it and you must decide, you and your colleagues.’ So that was a little
frustrating, but I did say to him that it would be very nice if we could have his thoughts down
on paper, but that was asking a bit much, but would he mind if Peter Williams, who had been
a director of the Trust for, the Director of the Trust for twenty-six years who was just retiring,
if he came down to Oxford and brought his tape recorder with him, and he said yes, with a
little reluctance I think. And it’s the most marvellous interview, there’s not an um and an ah
anywhere, it’s absolutely clear.
And is that only about his time at the Wellcome, or...?
It’s only his time at the Wellcome, and therefore it's not of great interest to others, but it’s a
lovely thing for us to have. And as you know I did ask him whether he would be prepared to
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go through this sort of ordeal with you, and he said no, he said his memory was just not good
enough.
Mm, I think he wrote to us to that effect.
Oh I'm sure he did. He was a wonderful man Oliver Franks, and he was a great lover of the
Wellcome Trust, so obviously we were particularly fond of him.
So how did your involvement build up? You began as being a trustee and went to occasional
meetings, or what?
I began being a trustee and I used to go to trustees’ meetings once a month, and shortly after
that we started having finance committee meetings because we were getting rather larger, and
to try and take the finance off, or the detail of the finance off the main meetings, out of the
main meetings to give more time for the scientific discussions. So I...yes, I suppose I used to
go to the Trust twice a month, and I also used to see David Steel quite a bit and we would
chat in the car on the way back from the Mermaid, and so one gradually, you know, began to
learn about it all. But very early on, within two months of me becoming a trustee we started
talking about the possibility of going public, and we went public in February 1986, and that
operation was very much led by David Steel, and I was his sidekick, but he did the vast
majority of the work. But we used to, you know, discuss tactics together a lot.
And who were the City firms involved in that at that stage?
The City firms involved, the only two City firms involved directly with that, and really
involved with us for the first time, were Robert Fleming’s, who we chose as the bankers, and
Hoare’s, Richard Westmacot of Hoare’s, who I think had done a lot of very effective work
for BP over the years, when David Steel was Chairman of BP. Anyway, we drew up the
inevitable list of possibles, and the choice of Hoare’s was quite easy I think because I think
David Steel felt very comfortable with Richard Westmacot and his colleagues, and that was
rather important in a long drawn-out affair which this was going to be. And regarding
merchant banks, we went for, in the end we went for Fleming’s, after having very seriously
considered four others I suppose, but we went for Fleming’s because we thought this would
be something new, exciting for them, and it would have been a bit run-of-the-mill for some of
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the other big chaps. And the person that was allocated to us, but perhaps we indicated that
we would like him to be the chap who was going to look after us, was Lawrence Banks, and
he is very interested in medical research and he’s, I think he’s Chairman of Hammersmith or
something now, but he would get on well with our scientific colleagues, and it was very
important to have someone like that.
Did you know him before?
I had known him for a long time, yes, I had known him for twenty-five years.
And when you become involved with something like that, do any of your friends at other
banks feel hurt you haven't chosen them?
Yes, I think it was...yes, you mention that. I mean when we did our share sale last summer
we had 237 approaches from institutions to look after any funds that we might raise, whether
it be Schroders or Kleinworts or Hambros, or Morgan Stanley or whoever, from all over the
world, all sorts and sizes, and in the end we appointed a total of ten for different roles, so we
got you know, ten friends and quite a few other people who aren't terribly pleased with us,
but that's always the way.
How are these approaches made?
Virtually all by letter, which was, it was quite a performance really because we were doing
the share sale, and at the Trust we had very few people working on the share sale; we
believed in taking outside, the best outside advice and keeping the team very small in the
Trust. And working on it absolutely full-time was an extremely able chap, is an extremely
able chap called Ian MacGregor, and he is the director of finance and legal matters at the
Trust, myself, and the other lay – well we’re called governors now for various reasons, but
anyway the other lay governor, Sir Peter Cazelet. And so it was really us three, which is
quite a small team, and so we had to rely on a lot of very good outside advice.
And the first time round when David Steel was really in charge, how did it go with Fleming’s
and Hoare Govett?
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I think it went extremely well. It was...it was quite a successful exercise. It was very
difficult to value Wellcome, or it has been very difficult to value Wellcome at any stage in its
history, and when we went public in February ’86 it was valued at precisely one billion
pounds, and it’s...whether that was the right valuation or not is difficult to say. All one can
say is, it was almost precisely at the same rating, stock market wise, price earnings ratio wise,
as Glaxo, which was the shooting star of that particular stage. I mean we, our price earnings
ratio was 0.1 higher than...sorry, 0.1 lower than Glaxo’s, and we couldn’t have a higher rating
than Glaxo, because we thought that you know, the press would say, this is ridiculous, this
company, and Glaxo is one of the shooting stars of the world and this one tries to be rated
even higher. But anyway the shares were sold at œ1.20, and on the first night they closed at
1.60, so they were sold too cheap I suppose. It was one of the most successful issues ever.
And did you find the transition easy? Because although you had been in the City you hadn’t
been doing this kind of work, had you? Did you...?
No, this was all totally new to me, but one knew an awful lot of the people involved in these
institutions, and I suppose one had without knowing it picked up a little bit over the years,
and picked up a bit of feel.
And the fact that both you and David Steel were known to a lot of the people in the City
presumably gave them confidence in the scientific side in a way.
Well I think that the combination of David Steel and me – it’s a bit presumptuous to say this,
but David Steel was very well known and highly respected throughout industry, and through
the banking world. I knew the money markets; you know, I was...I probably knew people at
the sharp end in the money markets, whether it be the Foreign Exchange, or Stock Exchange,
or whatever. But he knew the industrialists and the top...I knew the top bankers but I mean
he also knew them. But between us I think we were relatively good foils for each other. Yes,
and therefore our scientific colleagues got the impression we knew roughly what was going
on, and that was, I think that was helpful.
Right. But I mean in a sense the science side of it presumably would have been as good
whoever was at the chairmanship level, but the person there was key in order to give people
confidence.
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Yup, I think that’s true.
Right. And, when you came to do the second time around, what was the difference in the
situation and how did you choose your ten people?
The difference in the situation was that...no, we chose ten people for looking after our
investments. For the share sale we chose many more people, in fact there were 230
institutions around the world involved. How did we set about it. We set about it by talking at
length to Fleming’s about who would be the best lead managers etcetera. We also talked to
the company and to the company's advisers, Barings, as to who they thought. And we tried to
come to a consensus.
Sorry, but when you say the company...
Wellcome PLC, the pharmaceutical company, which we owned a hundred per cent of until
February 1986 when we went public. Last summer before the share sale we owned 73.5 per
cent, and immediately after it just under forty per cent, 39.92 per cent. So...now where were
we?
You were talking to Fleming’s, then you talked to the company.
We were talking to Fleming’s, and talking to the company, and to the company's advisers,
Barings, and we drew up a list between us all. And I think regarding the lead managers,
mainly America and the UK but there was Japan and the rest of the world, it was divided into
seven syndicates around the world, but the key institutions were really the top Americans and
the top British ones. The shares were largely going to be sold in the UK, it’s an extremely
well-known company in the UK and very highly respected in the UK. It was really quite
little known in the United States but it was such an important pharmaceutical company that
the States were bound to be interested. Japan was bound to be interested, and Europe should
have been very interested. So the main appointments were the UK, the US, Japan and
Europe. And we had these beauty contests where we interviewed 40 leading international
banks or brokers, or brokers is probably wrong, investment houses, and we interviewed them
over a period of seven days. And in the end we chose for the UK Fleming’s as the global
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coordinator, because we had decided on that from the outset, and the sort of top team in the
UK were Fleming’s, Cazenove and Warburg Securities, and we chose them because we
thought that they were three very high quality institutions, but three institutions who would
move heaven and earth to work as a coordinated team, and they did that. Then on the next
line in the UK we had BZW, we had James Capel, we had Rothschilds, and Hoare, those
were the four in the sort of next line. And in the United States we chose Morgan Stanley, and
Lehman Brothers, and Merrill Lynch as the top three. We chose, slightly surprising choice,
and I was extremely interested to see that they have been chosen by BT for the area outside
New York in the States for the next thing, Alex Brown, who are I think the oldest
stockbroking firm in America, and they’re based in Baltimore, and they did a very good job
for us. We chose Wertheim Schroder, Salomon Brothers, and Goldman Sachs. In Germany
we chose Dresdner, and others to back them up but I won’t go through the whole list, and in
Switzerland the Swiss Bank Corporation. And in Japan another surprise choice I think was
Nikko; I think everyone expected us to choose one of the other main three, but we chose
Nikko, and...
Why?
I think we chose Nikko not entirely because of Haruko Fukuda, but she was certainly a very
important factor.
Why?
She gave us the impression that whatever they said they would deliver. And we checked
around; I mean Nikko were real outsiders when we were looking at Japan. But she got in
touch with me, and she was well-known to Lawrence Banks as it happened, at Fleming’s, for
many years; I had never met her before. Anyway she got in touch with me and said that
Lawrence Banks felt that I wouldn’t mind. So I said well I’m actually trying to see as few
people at the moment, because you know, we’ve got quite a lot on our plate. Well she said,
you know, the boss from Japan is over next Tuesday morning, and such an honour and all
that sort of thing. Anyway, to cut a long story short I saw Nikko, and they didn’t press their
case at all, and they said you know, we know perfectly well, we would be very pleased to be
invited to the beauty contest, and you know, it's up to us on the day and all that sort of thing.
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If you had been rung up by a man at Nikko, and pushing to come and see you, would it have
made any difference, would you have been more likely to say no, sorry?
I would never admit that! I think that...I think she...she has a...she’s a very impressive lady,
and with a...not a forceful personality, but a persuasive personality, and I was actually quite
interested to meet her.
Had you heard about her before?
I had heard her name mentioned a few times, but I didn’t honestly know whether she was any
good or not.
Because, in fact one of the people who introduced the idea to me of interviewing her, because
I didn’t know of her, obviously greatly admired her, but still had a sort of giggly attitude to
her.
Yes.
It was a kind of, because she was a woman.
I don’t have a giggly attitude towards her at all, I like her and I’m extremely impressed by
her, and she’s a real professional too.
Yes, I mean how would you define her to somebody who had never heard of her?
Well she’s extremely confident, and she has every reason to be confident because I am sure
she briefs herself to the enth degree. And when they came to do the beauty contest one has to
say that none of the other Japanese banks, although they were very good their presentations,
they didn’t have quite the...the punch, and they weren’t quite as impressive as she was, and it
was Haruko who was the...she was the nub of the matter.
And did you feel it was a great advantage that she had been brought up in America and
England, and that she did bridge the two cultures?
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Well she was particularly good at bringing in her other colleagues and introducing them in
the right way, and if they were slightly hesitant you know, helping them forward and... It was
a polished performance.
Did you find that there was any difficulty given that the, not Miss Fukuda but presumably her
colleagues were Japanese in a straightforward way of coming from Japan at a late stage in
their lives? There is such a different etiquette and such a different code of behaviour, did you
find that was a problem at all?
Not at all, no. She...I mean she was the sort of person who was, as opposed to someone
coming from overseas she was likely to have been sort of an old friend, you know, it was...we
had a very good rapport with her.
But with the others, with the other people involved at Nikko, was there any problem in
communicating?
It was...I mean some were English, and the ones that weren’t...no, I...yes, one couldn’t
communicate with them in the same way, because their English was not as good, but they
were...they were a good lot.
Right. And so, if you would carry on with who the other people were that you chose.
Swiss Bank Corporation. One of the people from one of the other Swiss banks said we all
know why you chose the Swiss Bank Corporation, and that is because they’ve been bankers
to the Cresta Run for, you know, for generations. So I said, well they were particularly kind
to me when I was first treasurer of the Cresta thirty-something years ago, but actually it
wasn't the telling factor. No, the Swiss Bank Corporation, and some of their rivals were very
good, and they in actual fact did a particularly good job in the trying markets that we had of
last July; we were very pleased with their contribution. We were disappointed with
Germany, and Credit Lyonnais looked after us in France and we were very disappointed with
France. The French and the Germans didn’t really seem very interested. The two banks
concerned I think tried very hard, but it was an uphill struggle for them.
And what was your life like during this time?
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My life was...we were pretty hectic deciding whether to do this or not, and also having to
explore the whole question, which we did for a year before we made the announcement,
without anyone knowing that we were thinking about anything at all, and I think we achieved
that almost to a remarkable degree, and there was hardly a mention in the press; there were
fewer mentions in the press about the possibility of us selling any more shares than there had
been in any one year since we went public. It was quite extraordinary, just nobody seemed to
be interested. And...no, we spent a great deal of time talking about it, and sort of longish
evenings, but there was no real pressure; we were spending a lot of time preparing affidavits
for the court, because we had to get permission from the court to go below fifty per cent, and
we were obviously thinking of going below fifty per cent. And there was a lot of preparation
to be done, and we obviously didn't tell the company until you know, early last year. And
that was one of the unsettling things I think, when Sir Alistair Frame and John Robb as
Chairman and Chief Executive of Wellcome plc, who over the last, or the previous two years
or so had become extremely good friends, and goodness they had delivered too: the
shareholders couldn’t be anything but absolutely delighted with what Wellcome, the
pharmaceutical company, had achieved under their leadership and guidance. And so, you
know, it...when the day came it was...you know, one had thought quite hard about what one
was going to say, because one was basically saying, you’ve done brilliantly and we’re
extremely grateful, but now we’re going to give up control. And I think from their point of
view they would have very much liked us to go on holding three-quarters of the shares, or
virtually three-quarters of the shares, because we were I would think a responsible and
civilised, very large dominating shareholder to have. But I think they both recognised that it
was inevitable at some stage that we would have to diversify further, because the company
had been so successful that although we had raised quite a bit of money in 1986 we were now
back to the same position where virtually all our eggs were in one basket and ninety-five per
cent of our assets were in Wellcome plc, and it just is imprudent to have such a dominating
percentage.
So was there a time when they were a bit chilly towards you?
No, they’re far too civilised to be chilly. I would say that Sir Alistair Frame was...he saw it
coming a mile off, and he was not surprised we wished to go below fifty per cent. John Robb
also saw it coming a mile off, as I’m sure did all his colleagues, or senior colleagues, and he
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was disappointed we had decided to go below fifty per cent; I mean I think it just would have
suited his book to have us in control. But he I think immediately, or virtually immediately
appreciated that it was a wonderful opportunity for the company, not to break free from a
very large shareholder, but they would be getting a little bit more freedom if we didn't have
control, and that might give the company a chance to express itself more internationally. And
I think he was very pleased with the prospect of the United States, institutions in the United
States and individuals there becoming shareholders, because only about one per cent of the
company was held by American investors, and with its forty-five per cent of the profits of
Wellcome come from the American side of the business now, and its average fifty-five per
cent over the last six years, so it would be more appropriate to have more American
shareholders.
[End of F3125 Side B]
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Tape 8 [F3126] Side A (part 15)
And, in the run-up to actually floating the shares or whatever the term is, was it all
terribly international and running around and under pressure?
Well, we launched the sale in London, and I was involved, I mean John Robb and
John Precious the finance director, and Trevor Jones who was the head of research in
Wellcome plc, they would perform at sort of the London Roadshow or the Edinburgh
one, or the launching of the retail...the retail launch, which we also did in London, but
I would also do my bit, explaining why the Trust was selling and all that sort of thing.
And John and I, John Robb and I were interviewed by endless members of the press
and television and things like that; I mean when we were doing the London launch,
you know, four television companies in half an hour, you know, it’s... And when
you've got quite a lot of other things to do it’s sort of...it concentrates the mind a bit.
Did you enjoy appearing in the newspapers and on television?
I’m naturally, you may not realise it but I am naturally rather low-key, and I don’t
enjoy that sort of thing, but on the other hand it was likely to be the largest Stock
Exchange deal, non-government Stock Exchange deal ever done in the world, and
therefore it was stimulating. Because there were a lot of people who believed it was
quite impossible to raise a sum of money such as two billion plus, and there were a lot
of people who - no not a lot, there were some people who were hell bent on seeing
that it didn’t happen.
Why?
I think that it makes a very good story doesn’t it, if you know, a charity that’s been
built up from nothing and has grown to a very large size, has a splendid reputation,
that it gets unstitched by market circumstances. And it’s very difficult to choose the
right time to sell, because you’ve got to choose a date that's so far ahead, and we
made the announcement on March 2nd and the sale took place on July 24th – actually
July 27th. It’s a long long haul that, and there's plenty of time for people to write
articles that don’t suit our book. And so many people you see were in favour of it and
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thought it was the eminently sensible thing to do and the prudent thing to do, but then
you’re going to have people who have got to sell newspapers, you know, trying the
other tack. And we knew that would happen, and you will have people who will say
that there are going to be so many Wellcome shares about which there haven’t been
before, so you can sell them like mad on the stock market, drive the price back, you
can always buy them back cheaper. And that was a game of poker, because we
weren’t going to sell them very cheap, but we were quite prepared to sell them at
slightly under what the right price was. But it was a fine balance. But you had the
Financial Times, who were totally responsible throughout, and covered the whole sale
virtually on a daily basis, and very thoroughly, and they had two people working on it,
it appeared to be full-time, and they were, you know, they said things that didn’t suit
our book from time to time, but by and large they were very good; in fact for our
archives we have tucked away every article of the Financial Times from, you know,
early ’92 until the end of the sale, in fact to the end of ’92, because it’s a very good
record, and they covered the lot. But there were others who, you know, were not
quite so supportive.
But the people who were against it were all journalists, they weren't people in the City
gunning...?
Oh well no, they were talking their own books in the market place you see. I mean
there was one Scottish investment manager, and I lucky can’t remember his name, but
he gave an interview to an important newspaper, and you really couldn’t believe what
he was saying, you know, I mean it was just...he was just a little bit cheap, quite
honestly. And I think it’s sad that people in important positions can do that, or wish
to do that. But he looked as if he would be quite a substantial buyer of Wellcome
shares, and I believe he didn’t actually buy any in the end, but that was a disruptive
influence, because that got quoted time and time again, and regurgitated.
And how much did something like that upset you?
I suppose that one was so busy, and there was so much to do, and you know, there
were so many documents to be prepared; OK, they were being prepared by the
company by and large but we were having to do an awful lot of that as well, and there
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really wasn’t that much time to get optimistic or depressed. And that was an
irritation, it wasn’t any more than an irritation. We knew that the share price was
going to be driven down to a level, but what we hoped was that it was only going to
be driven down a bit, and then we would have an easy decision to make. In actual
fact when it came to the moment the shares came back from...they were sort of 9.50,
œ10 for quite a long period, two or three months, having been as high as 11.74 in
January of 1992, and that put them on a forty times price earnings ratio, which was a
ludicrously high rating, but they came down anyway to 8.24 on the Thursday the 23rd
of July, on the Thursday morning, and it looked as if, to a lot of people that we might
pull the sale, and they have been speculating in the press that we would from time to
time, and some had got very strong on it. There was actually one wonderful headline
to an article written by somebody else in the Telegraph, the headlines was by
Christopher Files, it couldn’t have been by anyone else and it said, ‘Hello, Wellcome
and Goodbye.’ In actually fact they changed their tack about a week later, and
thought the thing might be a success. How wise they were!
If you had pulled, presumably you would have had an absolutely vast bill to all these
people you had employed, and you would have had nothing coming in from it.
We think that the bill would have been slightly in excess of twenty million, and being
a charity, I mean is that a way to spend charitable funds? So it would have been
extremely inconvenient, to put it mildly, so we were very keen to do at least, well, to
raise at least a billion. But in actual fact you mention costs; the costs of the entire
exercise were very close to œ130 million, and that sounds quite a lot, but we raised
œ2,304 million, and if you ask me, would we, knowing what we do now, do it again
on the same terms on the same day, the answer would be a hundred times yes.
But in the run-up to it, when presumably you did consider whether you would have to
pull, did you have...?
I never considered it, I never considered it for one single second.
Because you are an optimistic person?
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No, because we were selling a marvellous product at a reasonable price, and through
the book-building exercise we did, where the institutions were saying privately to
Fleming’s, the global coordinator, how many shares they would buy at what price, we
knew the quality of the institutions and the volume of the interest, so we knew from a
very early stage. The book-building exercise was two and a half weeks, or just under
three weeks, and after ten days it was up to 150 million shares, and after two weeks it
was up to 230 million shares, and this was at, you know, well over œ8. So I mean
there were some really solid international interest, but there was a lot of interest in this
country, so we were not going to pull. We may have done a smaller amount still than
we did, but we were not going to pull.
So you didn’t at any stage have sleepless nights over it?
No, but there were some important decisions to take. No I didn’t have sleepless
nights because the nights were incredibly short anyway; one didn’t exist, but only one
didn’t exist, and that was in February actually, arguing with lawyers. But...no, I
didn’t have any sleepless nights, I was...well I mean I thought about nothing else for
about six months, and one had thought about the whole prospective operation for a
long time before that, so one had worked out and talked to endless advisers, exactly
what one thought was going to happen, and we knew there would be some horrid
surprises along the way. I mean you got the Sunday Times repeatedly writing about
Wellcome and its drugs, and it didn’t seem to be exactly supportive, and there was
one journalist who worked for the Sunday Times. And we talked to these journalists
an enormous amount, almost on a daily basis, the daily papers, people like John Robb
or myself, or Fleming’s or whoever, and you know, they just seemed to try and print
the opposite to what one had been telling them.
And do you think that's because they didn’t understand, or because they were
malevolent, or what?
No. No there were certain people who understood very clearly, but didn’t want to
write what actually was happening.
So what was that about?
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What was it about. It was trying to put as bad a...well, some people put glosses on
things, I don’t know what the opposite to a gloss is, but anyway, to look at the bad
side of the case, or the weak side of the case, and try and exaggerate it to make the
point. And, I mean you get an article in the Sunday Times, there was one article
which said that Wellcome shares you know, flat, and it said that Wellcome shares
opened the week at 912 and ‘fell sharply to 888’. They closed the week at 947. But
the headline was, ‘Wellcome shares flat’, which was totally misleading, and intended
to be misleading.
And is that because it's a catching headline, or is it because they're actually trying to
bring the thing down?
No I don’t...I mean I wouldn’t say the Sunday Times were trying to bring the thing
down; I think that they were extraordinarily badly coordinated, and I think the person
they put on it, on the Wellcome thing actually wasn’t really up to it, and they went
very quiet actually over the last month because that individual didn’t write any more,
so... I think...I mean it happens in newspapers, it must do, they’ve got so many stories
to follow. But the Sunday Times for whatever reason were not helpful; yet, I mean in
fairness to them, at Christmas 1991 they wrote a thing right across the headlines of
their paper, quoting some professor who said that he thought that there was a chance
that Wellcome could find a cure for AIDS over, you know, within a decade, and that
was bolstered up to being the most thrilling story. Maybe they thought that story was
a great mistake and they were trying to redress the balance, maybe.
And do you feel any conflict about somebody making a great deal of money out of the
misfortunes of a section of the society? I mean there's two ways of looking at it aren’t
there.
What, you are talking about AIDS in particular?
Yes.
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I wonder how much money Wellcome has made out of AZT, its drug, Retrovir. I
would think the figures are surprisingly small. The amount of money that Wellcome
must have spent on anti virals over the years, and anti viral research, must be very
large indeed.
But in principle, I mean...
Oh, I mean I don’t...I don’t think that’s right, but the cost of... I mean if you were in
the early stages of AIDS, and I don't know the precise figures, but I would say that the
annual treatment, the cost of the annual treatment of someone in the early stages of
AIDS through the Wellcome drug, I would say was the equivalent of, five nights in a
London hospital? You know, it’s that sort of area. So it is well within the means of
the fortunate people in the world, and it is way outside as a possibility for people in
Africa. I mean it’s...it’s very sad that it is, but it is.
And going back to the flotation, did you feel as though you were living in a film? Did
it all seem very dramatic?
Yes, it was...I mean one actually enjoyed the whole race, and it was a race, and it was
a race against time near the end. It became really quite hectic near the end, because
the press were having a go, and we had a lot of shares to sell, and it’s a very fickle
thing the stock market, I mean you...sentiment could suddenly go: it was highly
unlikely, because as I say the product was such a wonderful product, but sentiment
could have gone, and we could have ended up instead of selling 288 million shares at
œ8 we could have ended up by selling 100 million at œ8. And that would have been a
great pity, because we would have had to have done it all again at some stage in the
future.
And what was the actual day like?
The day, the day being the 24th was the last day. Now Friday the 24th of July 1992, it
was a very nice day, and everything was going perfectly well, the stock market was up
three points at noon, and Mr Baker made a statement from the United States at twelve
noon London time, and said that he did not rule out the possibility of using force
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against Iraq if they wouldn’t let us, or let them inspect the building the following
Tuesday. So the stock market, instead of being three points up at twelve was thirtyseven points down at one o’clock, and that was when people were making up their
mind whether to go for extra Wellcome ones or not, because it closed at five o’clock.
So that knocked the whole thing on the head, and it came to a sort of grinding halt,
and we had applications for 355 million shares I think it was at œ8 or more. But that
was not helpful. And I had lunch that day, and I spent an hour and a half over lunch
that day, which was rare actually over the period, very rare any time but it was
certainly rare then, having lunch with Christopher Fildes funnily enough of the
Telegraph, and he wrote to me the following week thanking me for lunch and he said,
‘You seemed so calm when everything was, you know, very much in the air, and a lot
was at stake,’ and he said, ‘I think everyone else in the restaurant thought you looked
remarkably calm, if they knew who you were, until you dropped your fork on the
empty plate and they all leapt up in the air.’ But...(laughs) It was a tense day, tense
day.
Where were you having lunch?
I had lunch at Wiltons.
And why did you have lunch with him?
Why did I have lunch with him? Because I had arranged to have lunch with him
about three months before, and he’s a very old friend. And he’s had a pretty rough
time recently, very sadly his second wife, his first wife died and his second wife was
killed when they were on holiday. He’s a great chap Fildes, and he amuses me
intensely, and I thought about a fortnight before, I mean can I really have lunch with
Christopher that day, and...but what else would I do? I mean you know, the die was
virtually cast.
I would have expected you to have spent the entire day with your nose against the
screen, or whatever.
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No no no no no. But we had...it was incredibly enjoyable, because the Fleming set-up
was marvellous, the book-building exercise was a triumphant success. The City of
London wanted us to have it underwritten and you know, nice underwriting fees, and
that would have been entirely the wrong route for this particular thing. The bookbuilding exercise, the confidence-building exercise was all-important, and.....[break in
recording – phone ringing] Fleming’s had a wonderful chap, and still do, called Ian
Hannam who, I think he studied engineering at Imperial College for five or six years,
and anyway eventually he went to Salomon Brothers, and he joined Fleming’s from
Salomon Brothers about, I think a month before we made our announcement, and it
was important to have a really experienced international book-building fellow. And
Ian Hannam was a star throughout. He’s one of the world’s great optimists, but he
has a realistic streak, I wouldn't put it stronger than that, but he’s a brilliant
mathematician and he programmed all sorts of programs for our computer system or
their computer system for this book-building, and you were able at the touch of a
button to find out the quality of the interest and at what price and what sector of the
financial world it came from in whatever country, and you could break anything down
into percentages and bar charts and cakes and the lot. And that was terrific. And he
had a marvellous young team with him, male and female I’m delighted to say, and
they were all stars, and nobody lost their nerve, and it was a great success.
It must be very frustrating, I mean to have that announcement from Baker that day
about something that really long-term was going to have no effect on Wellcome was
it.
None.
I mean it’s very illogical that it should have disturbed what you were doing really.
But we had to wait until six o’clock on the Sunday night; that was the only time I was
worried, was Sunday afternoon, because it was 6.30 the following morning that the
deal would be actually struck, and it was still possible, because nobody had said
anything, that there might be a strike overnight at Iraq, and that would have been that,
we would have had to have pulled then.
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But it’s ludicrous really, because actually things would have been just the same as far
as the shares were concerned.
I know, I know. But that’s life. But anyway, the overall cost of the thing as I say was
130 million, and I think that was very good value, to raise that sum of money. And
we were using the most sophisticated market place world-wide, and we had to pay a
fair commission to people around the world to get in touch with their clients and place
the shares, and I think it was...it was good value for money.
And did heading something as prestigious as this change people's attitude to you in
the City? Did they behave to you in a different way?
Afraid not, no, it made no difference at all! (laughs) Treated with the same disdain!
And has life seemed rather sort of monotonous since all this drama?
It hasn’t, because then we had...we had the most interesting situation because we
raised 2,304 million on, well by the end of August it was all paid, and by the end of
August we had reinvested the vast majority of it in the very bad markets of August
when the stock market, the FT-SE 100 Index to use one yardstick, fluctuated between
2,400 and 2,281, and we invested very heavily at that time, and we bought a lot of
fixed interest investments, both UK and international, and at that time interest rates
were a sort of flat ten per cent from overnight out to one year, in fact slightly higher
than ten per cent for a year. And then we had this ERM situation on September 16th,
and what happened was as you know, that the stock market went shooting up from
2,350 to 2,920 or something, 960 I think, and interest rates have virtually halved in the
next eight months. So what has happened to our investments is that Wellcome shares
taking that first, Wellcome shares we sold at - and doing this in sterling terms and
leaving currency out of it – but in sterling terms, we sold them at œ8 on the 27th of
July, and by the end of September early October they were œ10.50, and as we know
for various reasons recently they came back as low as œ6.50 something, and they’re
œ7 at the moment. So we sold at œ8, and we reinvested very quickly and on very
good terms, and that side of our portfolio has gone up by twenty per cent. So we now
have a broadly-spread portfolio of approximately œ3 billion in 700 different
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investments, and we have two and a half billion pounds in Wellcome plc. So it’s a
much better spread, and we’ve got an income now of over two hundred million a year
as against a hundred million before, so it's really worked...for the Trust it has worked
out as well as one dare hope.
And can we look now at who those ten people are managing your investments?
Yes, well as I said there are 237 starters, and we had to employ someone to help us
whittle the list down. I mean obviously we could do it ourselves, but we're
responsible to the Charity Commissioners, and the Charity Commissioners quite
rightly feel that any charity should take the best available advice, and in a case like
this obviously we should. And we employed Schroders and Watsons, the actuaries, to
advise us, and we got the list down from 230 odd to fifty ourselves - it was fifty-five
actually, and we handed all the papers to Schroders and to Watsons to analyse.
Who were you dealing with at Schroders?
Well initially we saw Win Bischoff, and it was quite difficult to choose someone to
advise us because we wanted to set this up before we had announced the sale, just in
case, because we wanted to be, you know, way ahead of the game, set up the
mechanism. But the moment we announced the sale we had this avalanche of
approaches. But Win Bischoff, he was chairman, he laid the whole thing on, and
various people were involved on that, but when we got round to whittling it down to
fifty-five and then talking to Schroder Wagg and to Watsons, and obviously our own
heavy input, we reduced it to a short-list of twenty, and we saw twenty institutions at
the end of September early October, and we chose a total of ten. We had actually
chosen Morgan Stanley to look after our dollar interests in the States earlier.
Why?
Well, Morgan Stanley we thought were the best people for this particular exercise.
We wanted to keep some money over there, or rather not bring it back into sterling,
and we only wanted to put it into short-term fixed interest, so it was not a sort of
mind-bogglingly complicated exercise and you know, we knew them well and we
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thought they would do it well and they have done. We appointed BZW to do an
index-tracking exercise of the all-share index, all 600 stocks, and they took half a
billion and put that in right at the end of July, which was, that was pretty satisfactory.
And then, we have never said who we have used for different roles, but the other
people involved are Schroders, Phillips & Drew, Baillie Gifford, Fleming’s,
Hendersons, Hambros Bank, Gartmore, and Newton, which was an interesting choice,
Newton; they have really grown very fast recently, and one of our advisers actually
elsewhere, not in the sort of, not Schroders or Watsons, suggested we should include
them on the short-list, and they were extremely impressive. And these people have,
initially they were appointed from January 1st this year, January 1st 1993, and they've
done us very well, touch wood. It’s early days, but they've done us very well. But
Schroders did a wonderful job looking after the money in the short-term, and we
appointed them to invest everything from late July up until the end of ’92, so that
worked out very well.
[End of F3126 Side A]
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Tape 8 [F3126] Side B (part 16)
What sort of a man is Win Bischoff?
Win Bischoff I would say is a very cool customer; he’s obviously extremely able, and one of
the best merchant bankers there are in London. I should think one of the best merchant
bankers anywhere. He’s...he’s decisive and highly effective.
And during all this flotation, all the tension, all the build-up, all the misrepresentation in the
press, did you at any stage lose your temper?
I don’t think so, no. You would have to ask others. No, I was just disappointed in the way
some people performed. I think if we chose, went through choosing a list of advisers again, I
mean out of all the people who have helped us, I mean our lawyers, Cameron Markby Hewitt
have been absolutely superb. We have no major criticism of anyone, and paeans of praise for
most of them. So, you know, you had that wonderful block of advisers and sound advice,
some of it inspired some of it just very good, and therefore one felt quite comfortable along
the way. But on the other hand we had to make the decision at the end, and my scientific
colleagues I think would be the first to admit that you know, they would lean on Peter Cazelet
and me a little bit at that stage. Although they had their own views, and they were fantastic
throughout, because you can't keep six separate colleagues in touch throughout an exercise
like this on a minute-by-minute basis, because I mean there just isn't physically time, and one
was very fortunate that they trusted, well, I think Ian MacGregor and myself, you know, to do
our level best for the Trust.
And when you went into Gerrard & National during this period, would they, because you
know them very well, would they be aware of how things were going for Wellcome, or was
there a glass wall?
That’s a particularly interesting question. They never at any stage brought up the subject of
selling shares or the share price, or whatever. I would guess that one or two of them must
have realised something was up, but were quite good at acting and perhaps they didn’t, but
anyway if they did they certainly weren’t going to let on, or rock any boats. I would guess
they didn't, they had plenty of other things to think about, I mean like the ERM and all that,
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but...I mean it was quite a bumpy year for interest rates and then it was an extremely good
one in the last quarter of ’92. But...no, I thought about that, I don't think they did focus on it.
And when you were weeding out people who might become your investors, what were the
things that would count against people, what would be the things that would lose them the...?
What, in what context is this?
When you were saying you narrowed your list down to fifty-five before giving it to Schroders.
Oh the investment advisers. Well, we wanted...we wanted a team. Most people would say
we appointed too many advisers, and if you appoint so many advisers you then get down to
the norm and the average, and what on earth are you achieving. I take a totally different
view; I hope that we have appointed a group of advisers, some will be and are encouraged to
be relatively aggressive, and they’ve got smaller amounts than the ones who are running socalled balanced portfolios as opposed to performance portfolios. And I think there's every
chance that, and it’s a dangerous thing to say but I think that there’s every chance we have
chosen ten very good people, and that they will out-perform the average, and it will have
been a worthwhile exercise. But it’s not the traditional thing to do.
But the people you didn’t choose, what was wrong with them, why didn’t you choose them?
Well the chemistry has to be right, you're going to be dealing with these people so you’ve got
to get on with them. I think some of them who came to the so-called beauty contest, they
were prepared for Peter Cazelet and me and Ian MacGregor, laymen, but I don’t think they
appreciated that two of the other people present apart from the representative from Watsons,
Sir Stanley Peart and Dr Julian Jack who are both governors of the Wellcome Trust, are as
intelligent as anyone you would come across, and what’s more they are very good at
analysing things and brilliant at statistics, so they were always ahead of the game during the
presentation when some people thought they were probably behind them, and therefore it just
didn’t sort of...it didn’t spark, it didn’t work. Whereas others, you know, had really worked
out how they were going to present, and to whom they were presenting, and they, well some
were very very good. And whether the ones we turned down will perform better than the
ones we appointed, I think that they won’t, but we’ll have to see.
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And when it was all over, did you go away for a long holiday?
What I did was to go...the sale was done on the 27th of July, on the 30th of July I went and
stayed with some great friends in Long Island for two weeks, and I took an awful lot of things
with me and I wrote an enormous amount of thank you letters to lead managers and people
like that. But it was a nice peaceful time, and the rest of August was relatively peaceful, and
made a point of that, although one was constantly in touch with Schroders, because we were
investing so heavily at that time. But it was funny, people don’t expect you to invest in
August, so nobody spotted it, it was quite extraordinary; you know, you buy tens of millions
of pounds of shares, equities, in London, day after day, and nobody spots it.
It is extraordinary.
Yes, it was actually extremely satisfactory, and we were very pleased about that. But talking
about spotting things, what was disappointing, I think the most...it didn’t matter but it was
disappointing, that we had kept this whole thing secret, and the announcement was early in
the morning of March 2nd, and it was only on the Saturday evening at six o’clock that I was
rung up to be told that the Sunday Telegraph had got the story. And when we got the Sunday
papers it was not only the Sunday Telegraph but it was also the Sunday Times.
So how had they got it?
I don’t know, but I think by the Thursday...I mean I suppose thirty people had known about it
for quite a long time, and that was obviously water-tight as it happened. I would think that it
must have been two hundred, three hundred people knew by the time we got to that Friday
lunchtime on February 28th I think it was, and there were rumours going around there was
something big coming, and then by four o’clock in the afternoon Fleming’s were one of the
people that you know, they thought it could be. And much later on someone said to me from
a public relation firm that they had heard that someone had been to the third floor or whatever
it was of Fleming’s one day, and five days later they went, and instead of being thirty people
on that floor there appeared to be three hundred people on that floor. Well, that’s a gross
exaggeration but I mean I can see that you know, messengers going, ‘there’s a lot going on at
Fleming’s’, and...you know, these things will get out in the end, and most of these things do
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leak. But this had been kept so secret for so long, and we had been working on it for a year,
not deciding we were going to do it but we had been working on it. And so what happened
was that we got quite a lot of press coverage on the Sunday, then the Financial Times seemed
to, however they found it out I don't know, but they seemed to give a very good coverage of
the whole thing on the Monday, and then all the press had it on the Tuesday, so we had three
days of pretty good press coverage, so it got the thing off with a bang! (laughs)
Are there any instances of people selling stories like this, insiders in a company going to a
newspaper?
I don’t know, but I’m sure it’s happened, I’m sure it’s happened. But this one in actual fact,
it didn’t do any damage except, I think the company were extremely disappointed because
they got everyone over from Europe on Sunday night to tell them and they had read the
whole thing in the newspaper on the aeroplane. Well that was...that was extremely irritating
and we deeply regret that, and that did irritate the company, and I don’t blame them, but
luckily they realised it was in no way our fault.
And can you give me an idea of what your life as Chairman is now? I mean what is the
pattern of your days?
The days are really quite long. We are...we're involved in quite a lot of things. I mean when
you've got a much larger income, and the income was large anyway, obviously you've got
more projects that you're thinking of funding. And I mean there’s this operation near
Cambridge, a place called Hinxton Hall Park which we bought, and that will have eventually
two or three hundred people working at Hinxton. And it's a nice old house with lots of
dreadful laboratory-type buildings – when I say dreadful, they’re perfectly good ones but they
don’t look good, and they were...it was originally Tube Investments’ laboratories. Anyway
we bought the thing, and reorganising that, and OK there are people at the Trust and we have
lots of advisers, but I’m obviously interested in that sort of thing and one wants to make sure
it’s very well done and think the whole thing through and the thing is properly landscaped,
and...I mean that sort of project is very time-consuming, but I mean I don’t have to be
involved in that but you know, we feel it’s right that several senior people are. Obviously the
investment side, that takes up quite a lot of time. I've had so many more letters from friends I
haven’t seen for years, and people one has seen more frequently. And all sorts of contacts
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you know, would you be interested in considering putting up funds for this that and the other,
which, they all have to be answered and there’s a lot of letter writing goes on, an enormous
amount of that, and a lot of seeing people too.
How often do you go into the City these days?
Very seldom. I go to Gerrard & National once a month. I suppose I go on average to the
City once every three weeks.
Do you miss it?
I don’t really miss it; I miss the people at Gerrard & National, because as I think you
probably know they are an extremely amusing, stimulating lot, doing something that I’ve
enjoyed enormously, so I miss them. I funnily enough don’t miss people by and large in the
City; I think it’s really because I’m now, you know, 58½ and most of my friends are retiring
or about to retire. I mean obviously one knows a lot of the younger people as well, but the
people I’ve really been in contact with a lot in the City, you know, I think are no longer there
really. So I don’t miss that so much, and the scientific and medical world, there are some
extremely amusing people there.
And do you intend to go on there indefinitely, at Wellcome, or have you got plans?
I suppose so, I don’t know.
I mean, do you view the idea of retirement with pleasure or dread?
Enormous pleasure. But I'm the sort of person who has always got to have some major
project going.
But are there things of your own you want to achieve later on?
I haven’t really thought about that. But I don’t know how long I can go on at the Wellcome,
one has to...we’ll have to see, but I took over as Chairman at fifty-five, just fifty-five, so I
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would hope that I would do...ten years? Hope so. But maybe not, maybe it will be slightly
less.
And you’ve recently moved to new premises haven’t you?
We have, we’ve moved to the Wellcome Building opposite Euston Station, and we’ve
completely re-done that, we gutted it, and we put an extra floor on the top, and we put an
extra floor in the lower area. I mean there were huge great ceilings, I mean ridiculous
ceilings, and so we put in two extra floors. And we've done it in the early 1930s style, and I
think it’s...I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s wonderful but I think that Henry Wellcome
would think it’s wonderful.
And compared to working in a company like Gerrard & National, how does it function in
terms of the network inside it?
Well it’s run on a minute-by-minute basis by the Director Bridget Ogilvie, Dr Bridget
Ogilvie, who is a parasitologist, and she’s an Australian and she’s been with the Trust for
quite a number of years, I think since 1979, and she became the Director eighteen months
ago. And we actually scoured the world for the best possible person, because the previous
chap, Peter Williams, having been Director for twenty-six years, you know, we thought it
only right to make the whole academic world, and other parts of the world, aware that this
marvellous exciting job was on offer. But it worked out that the clear winner was someone
from inside, which was very nice.
And how many people work there?
230 at the moment, and that includes the library. But Bridget Ogilvie runs it, she is the chief
executive, and I am really meant to be the non-executive chairman, but it’s really executive.
So from your point of view how many people are you in touch with on a daily basis, within
the Trust I mean?
Well my office, my room, is next door to the finance and legal side, so I’m very much in
touch with that. And the scientists, you know, I don’t see a great deal of, but I see several of
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them each day, and I'm obviously in touch with my fellow governors. But it’s...a lot of it
happens in my room, you know, seeing visitors and answering letters and...
And what about secretarial staff and people like that?
Well I’ve got a wonderful secretary called Sue Hart, and I was very lucky to get her because
first of all she worked for John Govett at Schroders who looks after our investments, which is
slightly unfortunate, but he knew that she wanted to, you know, do something outside the
City, so I mean that was no problem. But amazingly when I said to her at the interview, ‘You
wouldn’t know my sister and brother-in-law who live about five or six miles from you in
Kent?’ and she said, ‘I would because I’ve been doing your sister's Kent Garden Scheme
typing for the last two years.’ Because my sister runs the Kent Garden Scheme. So it was
quite easy to, you know, get references.
Had you advertised the job?
We went to a sort of head-hunter type thing for director secretaries, and so...no, she was
admirable, and is admirable.
And what sort of time do you get to the office?
I get there 7.30, 7.40, that sort of thing.
And get home, or wherever you’re going afterwards?
It varies enormously, but recently I’ve been staying there quite late, you know, till seven,
7.30.
And compared to life at Gerrard & National, is it more pressurised, less pressurised?
No it’s much less pressurised. It’s much less pressurised, but it’s...it’s much broader and it’s
over a longer period. I mean you’re not waiting on the edge of your seat for the trade figures
at 11.30 and watching your screen the whole time. I do still watch screens, I love watching
screens and seeing what's going on in the financial world, but it’s not absolutely necessary,
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but it’s useful background stuff, you...if you’re watching screens you get a very good feel for
markets I find, and I feel a bit lost if I haven’t.
I was going to say, do you feel you're getting slightly out of touch when you go back into
Gerrard & National?
Oh totally out of touch compared to what I was, totally out of touch.
And does that worry you at all, or you just accept it?
Not much, no. It doesn't worry them either! (laughs) I think it’s rather a relief for them!
And now that you're not in the City, is there a Gibbs there at all?
I think there must be. Now who is there? There's Alan Gibbs who's a cousin in...who was at
Fleming’s and is now at Rothschilds I think. There aren't many about no.
I was going say is there a younger generation about to come into it or not?
Oh I’ve got a nephew, Hugo, who’s in Sedgwicks, he’s the eldest son of my eldest brother, an
Australian – well he was born here but he has lived in Australia most of his life, in fact all his
life.
And did he come into the City through you at all, did you help him?
No. No, he...we left him to his own devices, and would have tried very hard, but we you
know, said to ourselves, you know, he’s got four months to find a job in the City, and he
found it himself. Actually he went to a fellow called Paddy Colquhoun who is good at
advising; I think he basically gets people out of the services and places them in firms, in
companies, but he's very good at sort of brushing up CVs and things like that, and I think he
helped Hugo a lot. And anyway Hugo got a job himself with Sedgwicks, which was very
good.
And do you know the Sedgwick people at all?
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Not at all. Well I do know some people there yes, but they're not close friends as it happens.
I’ve never known many people in the insurance world or Lloyds.
And are you close to Hugo?
Oh yes, I mean I'm close to all my nephews and nieces.
But the fact that he’s gone into the City at all, does that make him different?
No closer I don’t think, no. He’s, you know, he’s a lively twenty-five-year-old and he has his
own life. He came to the final of the Coca-Cola Cup at Wembley on Sunday, when the right
team won as you know. You don’t obviously.
I don’t.
I’m a director of the Arsenal.
Yes, I wanted to talk to you about your directorships.
They beat Sheffield Wednesday.
Why are you a director of Arsenal?
Why? Because I shared a flat with Peter Hill-Wood, and it’s his family business really; it’s a
side-line business but it is his family business. Shared a flat with Peter Hill-Wood for fifteen
years and you know, I got involved that way really.
Were you at the Grand National?
No. I used to go to the Grand National, I went to the Grand National seven years out of eight
in the late Fifties early Sixties, but I always watch it on television.
And, did you say you were a director of Christopher’s firm?
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I was way back, but I’m now just a small shareholder.
And can I just ask you about some of the other directorships, which I have to look at because
I don’t know what they are. What for example is the Colville Estate Limited?
Colville Estate is, it’s a plot of land of two-and-a-half acres in Chancery Lane, and it’s the
bacon family, and I’m a director of that, I mean it’s not a very complicated situation.
And the Howard de Walden Estates Limited?
Howard de Walden Estate is, it’s about a hundred acres plus from the Marylebone Road
down to Cavendish Square, across the Marylebone High Street and right across to Hallam
Street. It’s a large block of land, and I mean it’s owned by the Howard de Walden family,
and they have three outside people who are on the board of Howard de Walden Estate.
Johnny Henderson who was Chairman of Henderson Administration, and Sir Nigel Mobbs
who is head of Slough Estates, and me.
And what do you have to do?
Well, one has to do...one has the same responsibilities as being a director of any company. I
mean it’s obviously totally concentrated on property. But it’s an estate that is run on very
sensible lines, and my job I suppose is to see that they don’t borrow too much money at the
wrong rate for the wrong period.
And how often do you get involved with that, how much is the workload?
Oh it’s not very much. We have four main board meetings a year, and I suppose I talk to
someone about Howard de Walden Estate twice, three times a week.
As much as that?
But only on the telephone you know, quick things, it’s not...it’s not tremendously timeconsuming.
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And are all these directorships, those are paid are they, are those salary or are you on a
commission, or...?
No, one’s paid a director’s fee by some of them, and nothing by others, and obviously some
of the things are charities and...
But that’s not the difference between a directorship and a trusteeship?
No, you can be a director of a company and not receive any fees.
And why would you do that for a company that's making money?
Well that’s the big thing. If it’s making money, if it’s making decent figures yes, one should
be paid, but if it’s not making much money, or it’s losing a bit or going through a thin patch,
or it’s something like the Arsenal, none of the directors who are non-executive directors are
paid; the executive directors are paid but we’ve just taken the view that, why should they be
paid, you know, there are plenty of people who would like to be director of the Arsenal.
And how much does that involve you?
Well it’s more watching football matches. I mean you know, if I watched all the football
matches it would be jolly nearly a full-time job, but I don’t. I go to twelve, fifteen matches a
year, not more than that. And we would have I should think eight main board meetings. But
we've had quite a lot of other things going on at Arsenal. We’ve built two new stands in the
last six years, and a lot of sort of planning permission things, and... And also had an
extremely successful run. So it’s been quite time-consuming.
Right. And what about the Guy’s Hospital links, because there are several aren’t there?
Well the Guy’s Hospital links, I’ve gone as a trustee of Guy’s now, a special trustee of Guy’s.
I did very nearly ten years, and it really came to the stage where they would be applying to
Wellcome for funds for various projects, and it was really much better that, on the conflicts of
interest side, that I stepped down from Guy’s. I mean there are plenty of good people who
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would love to be a trustee of Guy’s, and it's better to have people who have got no conflicts
that might come up in the future.
And, I was also particularly interested in the endowment trust for St Paul’s Cathedral.
Yes.
And I wondered also if we could talk a bit about the role of the City churches in the City,
whether that’s strong or not, or whether they’re there just as tourist shells, or what those
roles are.
I don’t know how... I don’t know how many churches there are in the City, but if I had to
guess I would say twenty-six, it’s that sort of figure, and I should think the City needs eight.
And what do you do with the others? You don't include St Edmund the King, Lombard
Street, in that new horrific Barclays head office scheme, which I think some people thought
wouldn’t be a bad idea. But the average attendance at services during the week at St Edmund
the King, Lombard Street, is you know, something like eight or ten, and that doesn’t seem to
be right in any way at all. And they’ve certainly, and I mean I honestly don’t know the
person now because I gave up when I left the City, I gave up being a church warden there,
but we had a wonderful fellow at once stage called Leslie Whiteside, and he was an eccentric,
but people loved old Leslie and he used to get a few people to church from time to time, but
even he couldn’t really attract a congregation. But at St Helens they have packed services
apparently.
[End of F3126 Side B]
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Tape 9 [F3127] Side A (part 17)
It’s the individual concerned isn’t it, it is the local vicar; if he is a terrific character,
charismatic, he can bring in the congregations. But I mean the problem with the City I think
is, people that work there, they arrive at the last moment and they leave at the first moment,
particularly nowadays, and the hours are much longer and lunch hours are very short, and
there's not much scope for the local church.
And would you sometimes when you were there go to a service?
Yes, very few, although I was absolutely opposite the church. I used to go into the church
and see the verger, or the vicar, and have a chat from time to time, but not that often.
And was it a place you would go to in times of stress, or would you just go to when you're
feeling calm and had a half-hour off?
There were never times of stress, not stress to the point that one needed to do something
about it. All one needed was an early night I think, and that put that right.
And do you think during your time in the City the role of the church has changed, or has it
always really been pretty marginal?
No, I think it has changed. In fact I’m sure it has changed. I mean I haven’t seen graphs of
attendances and how they've slumped over the years, but I would guess that the services were
never that well-attended, except in special cases like St Helens, but they were much better
attended than they are now, much better attended.
And do you think that's because people have stopped being church-goers and they’re just
interested in money, or do you think it's literally to do with the pressure of the working day,
or what?
I think it’s to do with time available. There are still a lot of deep-thinking Christians in the
City of London. And...no, I...there just isn’t the time.
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And would any of those Christians be in touch with one another? Is there any kind of link
between them in the City?
I don’t think...I haven’t found that; I mean I used to be a good church-goer; I'm much less
good now, in fact I’m pretty weak, but I’m a believer and...I suppose if you add up the times I
go to St Paul’s investment meetings and things like that, that you could say that, you know,
that one did go to church rather more often than some, but I’m a pretty poor attender
compared to many.
Why don’t you go any more?
Well one just simply doesn’t have the time. I mean that’s a weak excuse, but...if I was retired
I would certainly go to church much more, I enjoy it; I enjoy the singing too.
Do you go to the church in The Boltons?
St Mary, The Boltons? No, I don’t; you see I go away most weekends, and... I would always
to church, if I go back to my family home in Oxfordshire to stay with my brother Christopher
I would always go to church. I would always go to church at Easter and Christmas. I would
always go to church on Good Friday, I like going to church on Good Friday, and it’s not just
to sing ‘There is a Green Hill Far Away’, I mean there are other reasons, I think that's a very
important day. But the people...no, I don’t think I've met many friends, or see a lot of friends
through church. That’s I suppose not true about St Paul’s, I do see friends through St Paul’s.
What is the St Paul’s Cathedral? What do you do? You’re on the court of advisers and on
the...
The court of advisers, which is a body that doesn’t meet very often, I think it would be good
if it met more often. The Dean, Eric Evans is an utterly splendid man I think, and I think he
might well have set up the court of advisers, but he every...every six months I think it seems
to happen, we would have a meeting there from 5.30 to 7.30, and every alternate time
probably have supper there, and every time we would stay on for a drink afterwards, have
informal chats. But you know, big things like, should you charge, and if you don't charge
should you approach the City of London for funds. If you're not trying on your own behalf
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why on earth should the City of London help? You know, I mean it’s all these sort of
arguments and debates, they get thrown around, and worries about the tourist season and you
know, if the pound rises sharply it’s going to be a bad year for tourists and will that affect you
know, the budget projections, and whether you should have shops in the crypt and
restaurants, and... I find it very interesting, I love St Paul’s anyway, and I do occasionally go
and sit in the choir stalls for evensong, and when I say occasionally I’ve done it three times,
and I really like that, and I took an American friend once and she thought it was simply
wonderful. Actually it was...her husband didn’t think it was that wonderful; I think he
enjoyed it, but she thought it was simply wonderful.
And do you think, leaving aside its architectural value and its tourist value, do you think if
the City lost St Paul’s, if it wasn't there, the atmosphere of the City would be altered in any
way?
I think it’s one of the main saving graces of the City myself. I mean to think that that square
mile, the Barbican square mile was absolutely flattened, and the dreadful buildings that have
been put up on it. I mean if St Paul’s wasn’t there I should think it would even spread further
west. I think, I suppose the City would change without St Paul’s, yes.
So you think it has a positive effect in some way?
Its acoustics are pretty ghastly aren't they. Can you hear in St Paul’s?
I don’t know because it’s all microphones isn’t it.
Yes, but it’s not good, it’s not good.
But I mean, there must be hundreds of people in the City who never go into St Paul’s, but do
you think it still has some sort of effect on them?
Oh I think it does, I think it does. It certainly does on me.
Can you pin it down at all?
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I can’t. I can’t remember, someone really rather unlikely like Sir Bernard Waley-Cohen
when he was Lord Mayor, his project, instead of...I suppose they always name a charity, but
his was to clean St Paul’s Cathedral; you know, it was absolutely pitch black. And I think
that was a wonderful thing to do. And of course it didn't last, it's now pretty dingy, but it
looks good.
And how does the City respond to the tourists? I mean are they just two different worlds, or
does that...?
Oh yes, they don't take any notice of tourists.
But do you think without the tourists it would be a bleaker place again? Do the tourists
dilute it at all, or are they negligible?
I think the tourists, I mean I’m delighted they come to St Paul’s but they have never got in
my way or...I've not really come across them. You see they don’t go to Lombard Street,
Cornhill, Princes Street area, which was my neck of the woods; a very narrow life one’s led!
And do you like any of the modern buildings that have gone up in the City?
I can’t think of any modern building that’s gone up in the City that I actively like. I think
Broadgate is surprisingly imaginative actually. The buildings that go up nowadays are
infinitely better than the buildings that went up in the Fifties and Sixties. Some of them were
awful.
And have you got an opinion about Canary Wharf?
Have I got an opinion about it. I would never have been as brave as all those investors. It’s a
long way out. But I would think that, wouldn’t I; I think that you know, it shouldn’t go
beyond Lombard Street, Cornhill and Princes Street! (laughs)
And do you think it will ultimately be a success?
I should think in a minor way it will, yes, I think in a minor way.
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And before we go on to some of your sporting exploits, are there any directorships,
trusteeships or committees that I haven't pin-pointed that we should talk about?
I don’t think so. I mean the London Clinic, I mean the London Clinic is...it had a reputation
as being an expensive clinic, and not the very good private hospital it is. Wonderful nursing
at the London Clinic, always been pretty good, it's never been better than it is now, and it
keeps its head above water financially too.
Is that where you were when you were ill? No you were at Guy’s weren’t you.
Well I was actually funnily enough in the London Clinic, but that’s purely coincidental, there
wasn’t room at Guy’s.
And as far as these various cricket places and golf clubs and things, are they all places where
you play?
The Arundel Castle Cricket Foundation is the thing that takes up most time, and that is a very
exciting youth and education scheme. We at Arundel, there’s this marvellous cricket ground
which the Arundel Castle trustees let at a peppercorn rent to the Club and to the Foundation,
which I am Chairman of. That is the youth side of cricket at Arundel, and we try and get to
Arundel people who are less fortunate rather than you know, the public schoolboys. And a
marvellous chap called Johnny Barclay who used to captain Sussex at cricket, he is the
Director there and he’s very good with the younger generation; he’s particularly good with
difficult members of the younger generation. And we have countless little cricket matches
there for children between the age of eight and eighteen, lots of tens and twelve-year-olds.
And it’s such a large area the Arundel ground, and it’s a beautiful place, but it’s a large area
so you have four little cricket matches for eight-year-olds going on at the same time so you
can have these knock-out competitions going on during the day. We give them a jolly good
lunch and tea, and if it’s raining there’s this marvellous cricket school which was very kindly
financed by Paul Getty. So, Arundel I mind a lot about.
And how often do you go there?
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How often do I go there? I probably only go there eight times a year, ten times a year. But
it’s, you know, it doesn’t need me there, it’s very well run, but I’m sort of really on the
financial side of the Foundation. But I used to play cricket there two or three times in
summer for many years, and it’s lovely to have the opportunity of you know, helping to keep
it going.
And how much sport do you do yourself these days?
Not a lot. I wish I did. I play golf a bit, tennis very little, I mean I really must try and do
more of that, but... Life seems, you know, such a rush there’s never time.
And, I wondered about the Cresta Run. I know it was terribly important to you at one point,
is it still important?
It’s still important, in fact I was talking to Christopher Bledisloe who is President of it this
morning, and going through various things. Because we have two meetings in London each
year, and there’s a golf day at Sunningdale in April on the Thursday, and then we have our
finance committee meeting at twelve o’clock until about quarter to three on the Friday, and
then we have the main meeting, and then eventually have a cocktail party really for the Swiss
who take the trouble to come over for the golf, to meet some of their English friends in the
evening at Bonhams; Nicholas Bonham is a member and very kindly lays that on. So, that
happens every six months in London. But I don’t go to St Moritz like I used to, because you
know, I no longer do the Cresta, and I can’t ski because of my knee, so I don’t go to St
Moritz very much. No, I think that, although I’m very interested in it and I’m very interested
in its well-being, I’m not that involved. But if something like television rights in America
came up, I would imagine I would be asked to negotiate that purely because I’ve done that so
often before and know the people.
And what is the London Bankers Golfing Society?
The London Bankers Golfing Society is an extremely distinguished set-up which, I think it
meets twice a year, and it's a day at the Berkshire or Walton Heath or wherever, where 100,
120 bankers, London bankers have their golf day. And the...President is it, or Chairman?
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That you are, you’re the President.
The President, I was the President, I’ve gone, I’ve gone. I’ve handed over to Chips Keswick
a couple of years ago, and you get you know, an amusing distinguished speaker, whether it’s
Robin Leigh-Pemberton, or...I think Chips Keswick got some distinguished actress to come
and speak last year, which was a great success. But it’s, you know, it’s the head of the
Treasury or whoever.
How do you become a member?
How do you become a member? It really isn't very difficult to become a member, you’ve just
got to be keen on golf and to catch the eye of the person who’s keen on golf in your particular
institution, and...
But you must be in a banking institution?
Yes, you’ve got to be in a banking institution. But you have that day, and then you also have
a day in Scotland against the Scots, or a day in Ireland against the Irish, or weekend rather,
and that’s all that happens, but it’s...it’s a good way I suppose of bankers getting to know
other bankers. But Chips Keswick as I say is, he also got Woodrow Wyatt, who was
extremely funny, to speak once. But it was...it’s only been going for twenty-five, thirty years.
And Alex Dibbs, who was chief executive of the Westminster and then Natwest, he was
President and absolutely all-important, and he got a bit older and less fit, and I think people
feared that he might get ill at some stage. In the sort of typical way that the British work
things, I was asked by, not by him, he wouldn't have had me as his successor under any
circumstances I’m sure.
Why?
Well I mean I enjoyed him very much but I mean he wouldn’t think of having anyone as a
successor you know, he was going to go on forever. In fact I suggested in one of my
speeches there that he should be appointed President for life, like Arthur Scargill, but it didn’t
happen. Anyway, he went on until, he must have been about sixty-seven I suppose, and when
he was about sixty-three I was approached by the Treasurer of this august society, and asked
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whether I would just stand by for each annual day, just in case he wasn’t a hundred per cent
fit and I would do the proceedings you see. And then he very sadly suddenly died, and I took
over. I only did it I think for four years and then Chips Keswick took over.
But you weren’t really a banker, I mean was that because of the banking side of Gerrard &
National?
We are bankers. Gerrard & National is a bank, but not a clearing bank or a merchant bank,
but it is a bank, specialising in the money markets. Oh yes we count ourselves as banks, we
are officially a bank.
How confusing.
It is, it’s very confusing.
And what sort of man was Mr Dibbs? Because he cropped up in an interview the other day.
Alex Dibbs? He was...I would think he was a very talented, extremely hard-working,
effervescent clearing banker. He was also outrageous.
In a good or a bad sense?
Usually good, but I wouldn’t think always! (laughing) He was a fantastic fellow, larger than
life; a very big man, not a very good golfer, always blamed his partner, particularly if it was
one of his underlings from NatWest, which it usually was because not many other people
would like to play with him the whole time. No, he was great fun, Alex Dibbs, and he did a
great job for the NatWest. I mean things went wrong obviously, you know, when the
clearing banks have their problems, and they had their fair share at one particular stage, but I
would say that he was a very good banker. And he was deputy chairman of British Airways,
and...I mean this is a typical situation of Dibbs. I was coming back first-class on business
from New York, and I go into the first-class lounge at Kennedy Airport, and there happened
to be, I can’t remember who they all were but I know Colin Cowdrey was there, who I knew,
Alex Dibbs was there, the chairman of BATS[ph] and I can’t remember who it was at the
time but he was there. Anyway there were five of us who knew each other, and one of us got
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up and started going to... ‘What are you doing?’ And, ‘Just going on the aeroplane, why,
what’s wrong with that? We’ve been called.’ ‘No no no no no, we go on at the last minute,’
you see. So taking advantage of the situation of being the all-important Deputy Chairman of
British Airways. So we go on at the last minute, and some poor unsuspecting American was
sitting in 5B, and Alex Dibbs, OK he said it in a congenial way, but said, ‘You do realise
you're sitting in my seat,’ you know, this chap immediately got his ticket and... So we all
said, ‘Calm down, take no notice at all.’ But he liked to be the centre of attraction.
Was he subtle?
Subtle? I would think that was the last thing he would want to be accused of, but perhaps he
probably...perhaps he was on occasions.
Was he liked?
Was he liked? Well, you know, he became President of the MCC, and...I mean he did lots of,
what some people would call important jobs. I think he was respected, he was tolerated at
times, and he was certainly liked a lot of the time, yes, but not all the time. A bit brash, a bit
unsettling for some people.
Was he very insecure?
I would think...I would think that was a part of it. I would think he was, a little bit insecure.
And tell me about the famous Chips Keswick.
The famous Chips Keswick, well I mean to become a knight one month and go on the Court
of the Bank of England the next, I mean is...some people would say that is a turn-up for the
books, particularly in the case of Chips Keswick. But what is refreshing about it is, there has
been no more outspoken critic of both the Treasury and the Bank of England at the top of
merchant banking in the City than Chips Keswick, he’s always said exactly what he thought
about everything, and sometimes it was not at all complimentary to the authorities. Chips
Keswick is, I remember someone who worked for him who was good but just a shade
mouselike in the sort of banking department, and Chips’ name came up and he said that, ‘All
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I can say about Mr Chips is, you always know where you are, and he’s always fair, and he
treats everyone the same, whoever they are.’ And I should think that’s a fairly good
summing-up. I think he’s a splendid person, and I think it’s rather nice that someone from
one of the families that have done a lot for the City of London is you know, flourishing at the
top of it all now, so I think that’s good.
And, one of the things that intrigues me about your CV is this time when you were a
commentator for ABC Television of America.
Well, what happened there was, one of the most famous commentators, sporting
commentators in America, a chap called Jim McKay, arrived in St. Moritz, I think it was
1967, and they were doing two days of filming of the Cresta Run, and it was the first time
that they were using eight cameras electronically linked together. Oh it was a very
sophisticated thing for that particular time, so you could have switched from one camera to
the other, and the tobogganer going down the run was in the screen the whole way. And they
got everything right, but they suddenly realised literally at eight o’clock the night before that
they really knew nothing about any of these riders. And I was having dinner at the Kulm
Hotel, and I had fractured...had I fractured my leg? No, I fractured my leg in 1965, but I
think I was damaged; anyway, I wasn’t riding. And I knew quite a lot about the thing and I
had been Treasurer for some time and all that sort of thing, and I was asked to go and see the
gentleman from ABC Television, and they said that, would I, provided I was prepared to
wear a decent coloured sweater, because they didn’t like the colour of my sweater – I don’t
know why, it was sort of dingy blue I think – be their expert commentator on the thing the
next day, and that we meet at seven down at the Run or something. So I said, well I’ve never
done this before, but I’m quite prepared to give it a go. And they said, well it’s all recorded,
you know, we can cut out what we don't like, so why not give it a whirl, and you introduce
the rider at the top of the run and I, Jim McKay will take the fellow through the first few
bends, and then if you can tell the viewing audience what mistakes he’s made and what’s
likely to happen, you know, that would be helpful. Actually it went very well, and I went on
doing that until 1985, and then it all came to an end which was sad; they wanted everything
live and they didn’t want canned stuff, so, and that was the end of the relationship between
ABC and the Cresta. But there was one particularly good moment which I enjoy playing to a
friend of mine called Malcolm Innes, do you know who I mean by Malcolm Innes? He
funnily enough worked in Fleming’s, but he’s got a gallery in Walton Street, a delightful
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chap, a very good Cresta rider. And there was one bit of commentating I was doing, which is
recorded forever, a major programme, and Jim McKay, or actually it was a chap called Jack
Whitaker, said, ‘Well Roger, here comes Malcolm Innes approaching Shuttlecock, I mean
how do you think he's going to handle it?’ And I said, ‘In the old days he would go, you
know, creaming round the top of the bank and do it with considerable aplomb, but sadly he’s
not quite as strong as he thinks he is, he’s going a little bit too fast and it’s absolutely
inevitable what's going to happen.’ And he went straight out for the first time that season,
snow all over the place, and they did marvellous music. But his children enjoy it! (laughing)
I mean, we’ve never actually talked about you participating in the Cresta. Do you want to
talk about that?
I don’t think it’s that interesting. I mean I was...you ride the Cresta from the top, or from
Junction; Junction is two-thirds of the way up from the club house. You ride it from the club
house, and you get up to the same speeds going from Junction or Top, but Top is much more
frightening because you've got this very steep, 1 in 2.8 into three hair-pin bends, and I was
pretty bad at that. But from Junction you have a much slower, or a much smaller incline than
from Top; Top is sharp so you just take one step and get onto it. From Junction you are
running crab-wise, bent over a toboggan which weighs a hundred pounds, and you've got to
flick it past you as you’re running on ice, and then get on to it, and get on to it so it goes
straight. A lot of people, in fact the vast majority of people wouldn’t dream of trying to do
such a stupid thing, but very few people are able to do it consistently well, and it was just a
knack I had that I could start very well. I wasn’t that fast, I was, from Junction I suppose I
was the fifth, sixth, seventh best at, I suppose for two or three seasons, something like that. I
wasn’t in the top league. Quite competitive though, quite competitive.
Presumably doing something with an edge like that, it's quite a good balance to leading a
pressurised City life.
I think it probably is, it probably is.
Is that the most dangerous thing you’ve ever done?
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I suppose so. I mean the Cresta statistically isn’t that dangerous; it’s quite frightening. But
only five people have been killed in the last 109 years, since it started.
Did you ever have any really scary moments where you thought you might be the sixth?
I fell seventeen times, and...yes, I mean I...once I thought I might have broken my neck but I
didn’t. But you know...I mean the chap who runs it on a daily basis now,
marvellous...Colonel Digby-Willoughby, and he broke his neck in five places, I suppose
about four years ago, and if it had just broken he would have been killed but it just went
bump bump bump bump bump. Very very lucky. He had a most terrible time with it but he’s
now all right, but... No, it’s a dangerous sport, so you’re always apprehensive, but not really
frightened, just a bit apprehensive.
And tell me about running in the London Marathon to raise all the money for the scanner.
Did you read the pull-out of the London Marathon in the Times? Touching mention.
What did they say?
Oh they said something like, it was Christopher Braisher, he said, ‘No nation would ever
produce – no nation but the British would ever produce anyone like Roger Gibbs,’ and then
went on why, but...
Why?
Well, why was because, to raise œ440,000, and when you’re well in your fifties – which was
a gross exaggeration, I was forty-seven actually, a rather lithe forty-seven – when you’re well
in your fifties to run the Marathon in under five hours and do that at the same time, or you
know...it’s really just showing what the English are like compared to other people. But
running that, it was enormous fun, and with so much money involved, albeit for a charity, it
was terribly important that one got round, and I got round rather more slowly than I hoped,
but it was a great day.
How did the idea arise?
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The idea arose by a discussion at lunch at Gerrard & National about the first London
Marathon, and the next one was being run thirteen months later. And I was fifteen stone
three, and some kind chap who prefers to remain anonymous, and that I have to respect, he
said that...his father had died in Guy's Hospital I think and he had never done anything for
Guy’s, and he said they looked after his father so well, and I had been looked after at Guy’s,
and anyway we started talking about the Marathon and we had been talking about Guy's, and
then.....
[End of F3127 Side A]
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Tape 9 [F3127] Side B (part 18)
He said, ‘I’ll write you a bread and butter letter after lunch.’ I said, ‘Well for
goodness sake don't do that.’ He said, ‘No I will, and I’ll tell you what proposal I am
prepared to put forward.’ And the proposal he put forward was that if I ran in the
London Marathon for a piece of medical equipment for Guy’s Hospital, he would
back me to the tune of œ1,000 a mile. Well that was 26,000 quid; I mean I just had to
do it. So, into training straight away. And I said to Guy’s I would like to, you know,
raise some money from the City for a piece of equipment, and they said, ‘Well we’ve
got you down for a body scanner.’ So I said what does that cost, and they said oh,
four hundred and something thousand pounds. So, it all slightly got sort of blown up,
and there was no turning back.
So what did you do, write letters to all your friends in the City?
I had a wonderful secretary called Cecilia Greiff, who had been my secretary the
whole time I was Chairman of Gerrards, and she must have done, I think we worked it
out that she did 5,000 letters over that period of a year, and we worked out
systematically who I knew in whatever institution, or what was the best access to
whichever charitable trust, and we...anyway, we planned the whole thing, you know,
and got all the sort of, sort of the package together, and drafted the letter about
thirteen times, and got the whole thing together, and we, I think we sent off, I think it
was something like 800 letters in the first go. And they had been targeted very
carefully, whether it be relations or whatever. And just over 900 people in the end
responded, and there were some very amusing ones too; I mean I remember one
particular one, someone called James Teacher who is married to Chloe d'AvigdorGoldsmid, who, they’re both great friends anyway, and the d’Avigdor-Goldsmids
have got a family trust, and James Teacher sent me œ500 I think it was, and he said
you will get another œ500...you will get another œ500 if you...oh, do it under a certain
time or whatever it is, and then you will get another œ500 if you marry one of the
competitors within one year, and a further œ500 if the girl that you married who ran in
the same Marathon, you beat. I mean you know, those sort of elaborate things.
But...oh there were quite a few that, if it was over five hours I wouldn’t have got a
penny, and it was four hours fifty-eight minutes and seven seconds, so it was... I think
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it was 35,000 on that, so I mean it was, you know...I think they might have given in,
but you know...
And, did you have help to train or did you just do it yourself?
My adviser was Bertie Mee, who was the manager of the Arsenal Football Club,
but...oh he was the manager of the Arsenal Football Club, was he at that time? No, he
can't have been at that time, but he was the previous manager, but prior to him being
manager of Arsenal he was a very distinguished physiotherapist, and I went to him
and said now look, I’ve committed myself to do this, I'm fifteen stone three, and what
on earth am I going to do? And he said, ‘Well first of all you’re going to give up
potatoes and bread, and none of those for a month. You can have some little bit of
Ryvita, and just go for walks, because there's no way you’re going to run more than a
hundred yards at the moment.’ And anyway, after about a month I had lost half a
stone, and progress was being made, and gradually he told me things to do as we went
along, and then...
Did you find it hard?
Very, very. And I got down from fifteen stone three to twelve stone four, and I think
when I got down to about 13½ stone I said to Bertie Mee at one football match, I said
that I...‘Now do you think I should run a full marathon, what, a month before the
race?’ He said, ‘There’s only one full marathon in you.’ And he said, ‘What you’re
going to do is, you’re going to do what Fred Winter did, and that was to, in the Grand
National just trot round quietly behind the field for the first circuit; but what you will
then do is different Fred Winter, you will trot round quietly behind the field for the
second circuit.’ (laughs) And...anyway, Bertie was wonderful, and when I smashed
myself up in the Cresta in 1965 he helped me rehabilitate my knee. And his advice
was invaluable, and I do believe he was right, there was only one marathon in me.
And, you are also a member of various clubs. Are you a clubbable man, do you enjoy
that?
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No, but I think I might be. I think I might be one of the great club bores when I’m
about seventy-eight, and therefore I would like to be a member of suitable vehicles for
that particular career!
And do you think much City business takes place in clubs? Are they important really,
or not?
I mean, you’re not...I think you’re not meant to talk about business in clubs; you’re
certainly not allowed to produce bits of paper and write things down. But they do,
they talk about business quite a lot.
But presumably it’s also a place where you might make contacts too.
I never have, and I’m not sort of looking to that really, though it’s probably because I
am not looking to that. I mean I’m a member of Pratt’s, Boodle’s and White’s, which
sounds absolutely ridiculous but I am, for different reasons. And I go there very very
rarely. I go and have lunch at Boodle’s probably once every two months, when I
persuade old friends from the City to come and have lunch there. The food’s quite
good, and the service is quick. It’s a civilised place. But I don’t go to clubs much,
but I probably will when I’m quite old.
And what were the last three books you read?
The last three books I read. I can’t think what were the last three books I read. I can’t
think at all. I haven’t read a book for ages, ages.
Do you tend to read only on holiday?
I don't...I mean I read light books. I read...the last book I’ve read was all about
Hughie Dundas, who was one of the twins who were in the Battle of Britain, and both
brilliant fighter pilots, and he wrote, I honestly can’t remember what it was called, but
a marvellous book which I read three-quarters of on holiday, and have now
completed. Hughie Dundas was, why I am particularly interested in him is not
necessarily because of his brilliant war record, but he had cancer at the same time as
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me, and we had the same anaesthetist, and I was feeling I think a bit sorry for myself
and probably being a little bit wet, and I had the most wonderful letter from Hughie
Dundas who I hardly knew, on attitude and approach, and...I mean it was, I don’t
know, it was a wonderful letter, I've got it tucked away somewhere, and it actually
made me stop and think, and not be as sorry for myself as I was, and realise how
damn lucky I was in actual fact that I had every chance of recovering. But anyway he
became a great friend, and I read his book and it was great fun, but I’m not a great
reader.
And there are quite a lot of compact discs in this room; are you a great music
listener?
Oh yes yes, absolutely.
Particularly?
It’s virtually, it’s all classical, except for Andrew Lloyd Webber. So I suppose that’s
a compliment to Andrew Lloyd Webber, or an appalling indictment of my taste!
(laughs)
Do you like musicals? Do you actually go to the theatre to see them, or...?
I love his music.
Particularly?
I don’t know why I love it, but I do. I mean quite a lot of it’s quite repetitive, but it’s
so relaxing and easy, and it’s quite stimulating too.
Any favourite pieces?
Any favourite pieces of his? Oh I think the suitcase song in Evita I like; quite a lot of
things in Jesus Christ Superstar, which I was appalled that anyone should write a
musical about Jesus Christ, I mean it really shocked me, but when I saw it I thought it
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was incredibly clever, and in very good taste. ‘I Don’t Know How to Love Him’ I
think was, that was one of the better things out, and ‘Jesus Christ Superstar’, the
actual chorus at the end, that was very dramatic. But also, there's a very...there’s
some very nice songs done by that girl he...the English girl in America, and about her
boyfriend that...and the sort of, the chap who was trying to get hold of her came in and
said, ‘I saw a chap’ you know, wearing...whatever it was. I can’t remember what the
song was called but it was very catchy, and rather sad, and quite punchy, it was... I
think he is a very talented chap.
And when would you be likely to listen to that sort of music?
When you’ve gone.
In the evenings?
Yes. In the evening. If there’s time. If there’s time! (laughs) Do you realise you’ve
been here three hours?
You were a bit late.
Well I was ten minutes late, but you've still been here three hours. Yes, I think in
between coming back and going out to dinner, or whatever, yup, I think that’s...that
would be a time. But much more likely on a Sunday when I start working away on
writing, or writing letters or catching up with office things, or whatever. Which I will
do all day on a Sunday, all the way through, without thinking of even going outside,
which is not the right way to behave but I mean I do do that. And I will have choral
music on, King’s College Cambridge, or Lloyd Webber, or maybe Sibelius.
Finlandia or something, you know. I mean I like some really stirring stuff.
And, you are a Freeman of the City and a member of the Merchant Taylors; does that
matter to you, was that important?
I guess it was important when I was in my late 20s, but I don’t know, I’ve been
involved in quite a lot of things in the City, and the Merchant Taylors sadly is
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something that, if you are involved it's quite time-consuming, and I just haven’t got
involved, so the Merchant Taylors I haven’t played any part in at all. Being a
Freeman of the City, I must say it’s a very interesting set-up, and I enjoy it when I got
there, but I’m afraid I’m a bad attender. Being a Freeman of the City meant a lot to
me then, yes, I thought it was frightfully important, but it isn't. I suppose it’s a nice
thing to be, but you know, I haven’t actually thought about it for about thirty years.
Right. And what do you most regret?
Not playing the piano, not learning the piano.
And what are you most proud of?
I think the thing that, I wouldn’t say I am most proud of, but the thing that really
irritates me is that I didn’t learn to play the piano; the pleasure I would have got from
it is enormous, and that when I was a choirboy for donkeys years, because my voice
didn’t break until I was seventeen and three months, that I didn’t learn to read music.
I mean it is utterly pathetic. So I am disappointed about that, and in fact rather
ashamed about it. The thing that has given me more pleasure than anything I think is
my own immediate family, and all of them, of whatever generation. One’s been
incredibly lucky to be a member of a family where all of us amuse each other, and
nobody takes anyone seriously, yet most of us try and do relatively serious jobs, you
know. I mean it’s...we have a lot of fun. That's been a bonus, and also I think
working in Jessel Toynbee, de Zoete’s, Gerrard & National, and the Wellcome Trust,
I mean what a quartet! That's just sheer luck.
[End of F3127 Side B]
[end of session]
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Tape 10 [F5223] Side A (part 19)
Interview with Roger Gibbs on November the 15th 1995 at his home.
[break in recording]
I’d just like to do a voice test. When we last did any recording, it was I think in April of
1993, and I naively accepted your picture of the future which was that, having done the, the
1992 share offer and everything, that your remaining time at Wellcome would be overseeing
landscape gardening in one of their projects. And it hasn’t been quite like that.
No.
Before we get to the Glaxo affair, I just wondered if there was anything we should say about
your career in that interim between April 1993 and the beginning of everything.
I don’t think so. I think, the Wellcome Trust was continuing to expand, its income was
continuing to rise as a result of the 1992 share sale, and... Well we’ll start again.
[break in recording]
You were saying that nothing major had happened...
I don’t think anything major has happened at all. I mean at the Trust we’ve been as busy as
ever, because it’s just got bigger and bigger, and, obviously with the Glaxo Wellcome deal of
earlier this year, in January ’95, that’s improved our situation more. But it’s the most
extraordinary performance has been put up by Glaxo Wellcome shares since we took shares
as part of the, the deal, struck at £6.44 and they’re now £8.44. So, we’re now back to a
situation where we have nineteen per cent of our assets in one share, and having thought that
we’d heavily diversified, well we have, but not quite as heavily as we thought we had.
It’s like being in a cartoon isn’t it, whatever you do, you end up in the same position.
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I suppose the answer is that we should be extremely pleased that it’s worked out that way.
But, the assets of the Trust have now become so large that people, now it’s the largest charity
in terms of current assets in the world, its assets at the moment, its portfolio is made up of
£7.6 billion, of which 6.2 are in a mixed portfolio and 1.4 in Glaxo Wellcome, but with an
income of £300 million a year, obviously every person who has something really worthwhile,
some worthwhile project that they feel should be funded by one of the big chaps in the world
of medical research, they come straight to the Wellcome Trust. So we have an everincreasing volume of applications, and I may say very high quality applications; not all of
them are high quality but I would think at least a billion pounds’ worth a year now are of the
highest quality. So, the rate of, you know, the approvals to these grants, I mean, applications,
the success rate is now about, well it’s one in four now, it’s... So, we could use more income
very effectively.
Mm.
So, it’s...it’s busy on that side, but on the financial side there are thousands apparently of
investment houses of different types, that’s including all these venture capital people in the
United States, and endless visits and propositions. I mean that’s why one’s so busy, or been
so busy over the last two years, I think it is the...whether it’s, say, trying to save Bart’s, or
whether it’s some thrilling venture capital set-up from Illinois or whatever, people are
wanting to come and see you the whole time. And, it’s not because it’s me, it’s because I’m
chairman of the largest charity.
But you enjoy it, yes?
Do I enjoy it now? I enjoy it enormously. I find it extraordinarily stimulating. For instance,
what did I do yesterday? I had two meetings with very interesting people, one from Hong
Kong and one from the States, and they both had different things to talk about. One thought
he was one of the best venture capital people around and hadn’t really been recognised, and
he was a friend of a friend, and I saw him, and, actually he was very impressive, and his track
record is very good, but, he’ll probably go on the back burner as far as we’re concerned for
some time.
Why? What’s the poor man to do to get on the ladder?
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Well, because we’ve got so many people already.
Right.
This is the problem. And, the other fellow had some interesting invention which he thought,
you know, could be marketed and might be of interest to, possibly even someone like Glaxo
Wellcome, and would I introduce him to Sir Richard Sykes, the boss of Glaxo Wellcome.
And in actual fact I will, but not with a huge amount of enthusiasm, because I don’t
understand the detail of the invention, but I will certainly make them aware of it, and if they
want to take it any further, they will. So that was that. And then I answered I suppose ten
letters to people who have written in to me direct for, you know, appealing for funds for
various things, all outside the terms of the Wellcome Trust. But each letter has to be given a
bit of thought, and you know, they’re from various contacts or people that one’s never met,
and it’s, you know, they have to be given a bit of thought. In fact, I think we did something
like thirty letters yesterday morning. I then went off and had lunch with Lord Rothschild,
with Jacob Rothschild, because, in fact Julian Jack, my deputy chairman, and I went off to
see him, and he’s the Heritage Lottery Chairman amongst many other things: I must say he’s
a very bright fellow, very on the ball, and the reason really being that the Science Museum
are going to have a new wing, we hope, in 1999, prior to the Millennium, and it’s likely to be
called the Wellcome Wing. The reason, the motivation for that is that of the 200,000 items in
the Science Museum, either on display or in store, 112,000 are on long-term loan from the
Wellcome Trust, so it’s in Henry’s, Henry Wellcome’s collection or part of it, and, we think
the thing that will give him most pleasure to celebrate the sixtieth anniversary of the Trust,
which is next year, would be something like the Wellcome Wing. And we’re talking to the
National Lottery – well the heritage side of the National Lottery – about this, and obviously
the Science Museum in depth, and we’ve said we’ll put up £15 million if they’ll put up £25
million. So it’s going to be a sort of significant project. And, Lord Rothschild during this
particular extremely congenial hour and twenty minutes managed to put forward something
like eighteen possible joint ventures for the Wellcome Trust to consider. And, he’s a fellow
for taking, you know, the main chance, he’s... We both, Julian Jack and I, had to play a fairly
straight bat quite a lot of the time, but we’re used to that.
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And when somebody suggests eighteen projects to you or whatever, does your heart rise, or
sink, or just beat a bit faster?
Well one’s inclined to say that, ‘You do realise we are being inundated with exciting
proposals from every nook and cranny of the world,’ and they appreciate that, and they don’t
expect a response, obviously, a positive response on more than, say, hopefully one or two; I
mean he’d settle for two, I’m sure, here, now. But there’s another one we talked about
actually and that’s Darwin’s home, Down House in Kent, which, there’s a tremendous sort of
debate going on as to who should save it, because it’s beginning to deteriorate. And it’s, it’s
leased to the Natural History Museum, the freehold was given to the Royal College of
Surgeons in, I think 1928, something like that. And the natural History Museum can’t afford
to look after it in a way that they would really like to, because there’s a lot of capital
expenditure needed. And the Royal College of Surgeons can’t. So, what will happen, one
doesn’t know, but the dear old Wellcome Trust believes that Darwin was one of the greatest
scientists this country ever produced, if not the greatest, and Down House is a very important
part of our history, so, you know, it comes under the history of medicine side for Wellcome.
So, we’re trying to negotiate to buy the freehold and give it to the nation, but for English
Heritage or whoever to take it on from there. We’re prepared to make a major gesture and
get the freehold side sorted out and put it into whatever vehicle is appropriate, a trust or into
English Heritage, but then we’re not going to have people coming back and saying, ‘Ah, well
you did this therefore you’ll want to give us another quarter of a million next year.’ We
don’t. We want to deliver the freehold. And try and explain that to Jacob Rothschild, who is
tremendously sympathetic towards Down House and thinks that, you know, the Heritage
Lottery Fund should consider a donation very sympathetically, you know, would like to get
every penny he can out of the Wellcome Trust. I don’t blame him.
It’s slightly odd though isn’t it, because, I thought one of the problems that they were having
was, because of the rules of the Lottery, they could only give to buildings, and so many
applications couldn’t be brought in under their wing. I thought they actually had a surplus
amount of money.
I think the answer is that they have up to now; I mean they’ve only been going, what, a year
or something in effect, and their...I don’t know whether their income’s gone up from, you
know, in the first month, £10 million to, something like £250 million a year, something like
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that it is I think. No, I think the truth of the matter is that they have been short of really
worthwhile applications, but they will literally within a matter of months have more than
enough worthwhile applications. I would guess they are heavily focused on museums and
not enough on a broader spread, whatever the broader spread may include.
You mean the rules are going to change?
I don’t know about that. But the other thing is, the geographical problem. I mean for
instance, I mean, they obviously didn’t say this, but the fact that the Wellcome Wing of the
Science Museum, the proposed Wellcome Wing, is going to be in Kensington, in the centre
of the most, you know, sort of affluent part of London, doesn’t help, help them, because
there’s too much focus, or likely to be too much focus, on London, and it’s much more likely
than they would be pleased to, I’m talking about the Science Museum, I think they have a
very good photographic library in Bradford, I mean it’s much more likely that they would be
keen on supporting that.
It’s very difficult though isn’t it, because I go past the Science Museum all the time, because
of where the Sound Archive is, and it’s always packed with hoards of children being coached
in from all sorts of places.
Yes.
I mean it couldn’t be a more successful place, could it?
It couldn’t. I think it has 1.3 million visitors a year, something like that, and with the
Wellcome Wing, they hope it will rise to 1.8. So I mean, you know, it’s...it’s obviously a
worthwhile project.
Mhm. I mean I guess the fact of the matter is that one needs it in Bradford and in London,
and presumably with the scale of money coming in, there’s no reason not to think that could
happen in the future.
Well it probably could. It probably could. But, you see it’s very difficult to get over to Jacob
Rothschild. I mean, he said, ‘OK, that’s Darwin, you’re going to put up a few hundred
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thousand for that; you’re going to put up £15 million for the Wellcome Wing; and obviously
masses of other things you’re thinking of.’ Well the answer is, there aren’t masses of other
things we’re thinking of; those are probably two of the more significant things we’ve done
outside our normal [inaudible].
I was going to say, what is the balance between supporting actual medial research and
supporting things that are related but not directly going to save anyone’s life?
From our budget?
Mm.
Our budget would be...it’s something like ninety-five per cent medical research. Now I
would think it’s three per cent the history of medicine, if not four per cent the history of
medicine, and one to two per cent veterinary research.
Oh really?
Mm.
Gosh, loads of people[??] [inaudible] would be inundated.
We’re the biggest funders of veterinary research in this country.
Excellent.
So...
Just a minor detail. Where was your lunch?
Lunch was at 15 St. James’s Place. And I don’t know about that area. I said to him, you
know, at lunch, ‘Jolly nice to go into one of your buildings in this area. Do you own the
whole of the area round Spencer House?’ He said, ‘Certainly not, no.’ And, he said, ‘It
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comes very well from you, owning virtually all of Kensington.’ So I said, ‘Well, no, it’s not
actually...it’s the Trust that owns a bit of Kensington.’ (laughs) He’s...he’s...I used to know
him very very well from the age of thirteen to fifteen, and funnily enough, our paths although
we worked in the City for donkey’s years, haven’t, you know, sort of, haven’t crossed that
much. But, I must say I, I’m an admirer, he’s a real doer. He’s a great friend of my brother
Christopher’s.
Right. And, one of the things that’s happened since I saw you is, a tremendously interesting
book about Wellcome.
Yes.
And can you just tell me how that came about?
Well, that came about, Wellcome’s biography was published last October, just over a year
ago, and it came about, the motivation was really that, I’ve always been a great believer in,
you must do these things before too many people slip away, and really almost the last thread
of connection with Wellcome in the, in the early Thirties, he died in 1936, were going to
disappear in, you know, a very short time, and there were...this wonderful fellow called
Mendelson[ph] who is still alive aged ninety-two, who knew Henry Wellcome, he worked in
the Wellcome Foundation, and also Lady Glenleven[ph], Lisa Glendevon[ph], who was, who
is, [inaudible] Maugham[ph] daughter, and as you know before Somerset Maugham,
[inaudible] Barnardo was married to Henry Wellcome. So, there was...there are one or two of
those sort of people about, and therefore, I really actually approached an old, another school
chum, called Mark Collins, as to, I just asked him one day who he thought would be a good
biographer for Henry Wellcome. And he said, ‘Well, talk to my brother-in-law, Philip
Siegler[ph].’ Which I hoped he would say. Philip Ziegler[ph] very kindly came round to the
Trust to discuss it, this must have been five years ago. And, so after about three-quarters of
an hour conversation, I said, ‘Well will you do it?’ He said, ‘Well no, I wouldn’t do it, I
won’t do, because first of all, I’m far too expensive for a charity, and secondly, I actually
don’t think Henry Wellcome was one of the most inspiring people, you know, I’ve ever
studied. But,’ he said, ‘I can tell you who will do it, and who will be really motivated, is
Robert Rhodes-James[??], and I think Henry Wellcome is just his scene, and you know, he
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doesn’t charge as much as I do.’ So, we saw Robert Rose-James[ph], and he obviously was
passionately interested in Henry Wellcome, and he did produce a very good biography.
And, is that something...have you know got an archive that you update, is that something
you’re...are you going to keep documenting the history?
Well, the history of the Trust?
Mhm.
Yes. We haven’t done enough about it. That is the sort of thing that should have more time
spent on it, but, it’s pretty well documented. I mean, everything to do with things like going
public and share sales [inaudible] ’92 when the Glaxo Wellcome bit, it’s all tucked away in
the archives.
And, just briefly going back to your lunch with Lord Rothschild. Compared to the sort of
manoeuvrings you might have had in the days when you were in the City having lunch, in
theory to achieve something, is it different, the sort of chess moves, is it a different
atmosphere?
It is. It’s a more relaxed...it’s a less intense atmosphere. It’s thoroughly enjoyable. And, he
knew he was making some quite outrageous suggestions, but you know, he was trying to get
the feeling of the meeting. And which he undoubtedly did. And out of it, out of it there
were...they’re looking for people to help them, experts, in various fields, and through that
lunch I think we produced two ideas that they will definitely follow up.
And do you then follow up in a letter sort of documenting what was said between you in the
nicest possible way, or is it much more informal than that?
I will write a letter later today to Jacob and say that, you know marvellous lunch and all that,
and how worthwhile and constructive it was; don’t expect too much from Down House; we
will on the other hand, if it helps, put our £15 million up, I’d confirm that we’d put our £15
million up for the Wellcome Wing of the Science Museum, earlier rather than later, because
they’ve got a problem of putting up too much too soon. Of the many other ideas, he
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mentioned or raised, you know, we will be thinking of some of them, with an exclamation
mark, or something like that, you know.
And then he’ll leave you alone for a bit to think, or what?
No. No he’ll write back, he’ll write back after that.
And say, these are the ones I’m [inaudible] with?
Yes.
Right.
‘And I really mind about the apple orchard in Dorset,’ or whatever it is, ‘and it is, you know,
believed to be fourteen hundred years old, and you know, it’s got to be saved, and it could
come under your guidelines,’ or whatever, you know.
Right. And then, you were really going through your day yesterday. What happened after
lunch? How long was the lunch, compared to a City lunch for example?
It was...it was a sort of modern City lunch length, hour and twenty minutes, and out. I then
went to Hambros Bank, to a meeting of the Royal National Pension Fund for Nurses, which
was in two parts, and, I think I’ve explained before about that. It was founded in the 1870s
by my great-grandfather, and also the equivalent, Morgan Rothschild and Hambro, and it’s
now [inaudible]. And, it was all motivated originally, or created originally, because one of
those four was so appalled that the matron from a very good hospital in London was ending
up in the workhouse. So, this pension fund for nurses was organised. I got there a bit early,
and inevitably, despite having an operation on my shoulder, I do still carry around two
briefcases full of terribly important files, well they’re important to me, but nobody else, and I
[inaudible] three-quarters of an hour there in one of their rooms and had a bit of a sort out,
and made a bit of progress, talked to a few people on the telephone, and then went on with
the nurses. The nurses. I then got a lift...
Sorry, what is your role there? Just...
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I’m a governor. I mean, there’s a sort of, there’s a council, I’m on the council.
And it sounds as thought that would always be fairly straightforward, things will just keep
rolling on.
Well I think, yes, fairly straightforward. But you...you get things that crop up. I mean say
the, the performance of the...say the investment performance is slightly disappointing or
something, what does one do about it, does one ask the managers to change the actual
manager doing it, or whatever. I mean there are lots of bits and pieces, really on the sales of
policies and, you know, how it’s all going.
So how long did that take?
Oh about an hour and a half I suppose. An hour and a half.
And why do you carry two big briefcases? Are these all current [inaudible]?
Well they’re all current things that I might want to refer to. Quite a lot of nurses papers there.
But also, quite a lot of bits of notes that I should have written up, and letters I should have
written and things. Oh you just...
So the paperless society hasn’t reached your briefcase?
No, it’s simply appalling. The paper that is generated at the Wellcome Trust is really
horrific. And we do make great efforts about reducing it, but it just gets churned out.
And you wouldn’t ever carry a laptop computer with you rather than...?
Well you know, I’d love to carry a laptop computer, but... I was actually, I was with
someone called Vanny Trees[ph] who is Senior Partner with Farlands[ph] the other day and
he said, ‘The time has come for you and I to take a week off and learn how to use a laptop
computer. We could do it in a week.’ There’ll never be a week, will there? This is the
trouble.
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OK.
I can’t use a laptop computer.
Because you can’t use any computer, effectively?
No, I can’t. I mean I’ve, you know, sort of, we’ve tried these voice recognition machines and
things like that, and...but if you’ve got a wonderful secretary, if you’re in my position, and
you know, you can just, if she’s not there I can just ring up and dictate on the telephone into
the, into the telephone, there really isn’t much point. But, I’d love to be more computer...well
I’d like to be computer-minded. I’ve got a calculator, that’s about it.
You sound like you do that in your head anyway.
Well, sometimes, sometimes, quite good at mental arithmetic still, but only simple mental
arithmetic.
And, what was your shoulder operation that you mentioned?
Shoulder operation was that, the bit below the shoulder and above the elbow, due to trying to
hit a golf ball too hard, trying to serve too fast at tennis, and I think probably having had
minor Cresta injuries and things like that. It all caught up, got a bit swollen. Therefore, you
couldn’t extend the arm properly, it wouldn’t get through under the archer[??] bone, there’s,
you know, archer[??] bone on the shoulder, and then that starts growing down and then you
try and get it through, and then it starts shredding the main tendon and... Anyway, it had to
be sorted out.
And is it now all right?
No, they take about four months, five months. But, this was done a month ago, almost
exactly, and it’s better, but it’s been painful for a long time, so I don’t’ actually notice that
it’s painful.
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And otherwise you’ve been all right health-wise?
Otherwise I think I’ve been very well health-wise, yes, yes. One gets tired as one gets older,
which is boring, because you can’t, I find I can’t actually say I’m trying to catch up on a
Saturday; if I start at 8.30 on the Saturday, well by three o’clock in the afternoon I’ve
absolutely had it, I have to have an hour’s snooze, and then back again, you know. I can’t
just go all the way through like I used to be able to.
And do you sleep naturally at night, or do you have sleeping pills, do you have any
problems?
I sleep naturally at night. I mean I don’t...I’m very anti pills of all sorts. So, no, I’m...I sleep
pretty well really.
Right. OK. Back to yesterday. After the nurses?
After the nurses, I went in a taxi with Peter [inaudible] Sitwell, who was Chairman of
Warburg Securities, and retired quite recently, he was an old chum. And, we went back in a
taxi to Minorco[ph], he’s on the board of Norco[ph], and he collected a few papers and files
just like I do, and, he gave me a lift home in his car. I then went out to supper round the
corner with a cousin of mine called Nico Bacon[ph] and his wife, and had a very pleasant
evening.
To a restaurant, or a...?
Yes.
Right.
Had a very pleasant evening.
And what time did you actually crawl into bed?
Half-past eleven.
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And what time had you got up?
Twenty past six.
Twenty past six is normal is it?
Twenty past six is, yes, normal.
And on a normal day, do you do some work at home before you go into the Wellcome Trust,
or what happens?
No. What I do is, on a normal day I would have breakfast at seven, fried egg and bacon,
Ryvita and marmalade, a cup of coffee, and I would then drive myself off to the Wellcome
Trust at about quarter past seven, and I’m there at twenty-five to eight. And, there’s no
traffic – well, I mean there’s very little traffic, if you go at that hour, and it’s all very
civilised, park under the building, straight up to my office. Very spoilt.
And are you taking exercise? I know you’ve had the shoulder problem, but...
No, I’m not, which is a pity. It would be much better if I was.
And did you have a sort of good break in the summer?
I went to... Yes, I went to America, to East Hampton[ph], on Long Island, to stay with some
friends called the Hillwoods, which I’ve done many times, so I had two weeks there, and I
had, oh I had about a week in total in Scotland. So...
And that’s your year’s holiday really?
No, I...I had a week earlier in the year. I...I should think I’ve had five weeks’ holiday, if you
add it all up.
[End of F5223 Side A]
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Tape 10 [F5223] Side B (part 20)
During this time at the Wellcome Trust, are you know steeped in medical history, and also in
current medical research? How much of that is...
Brushed off on me?
Mhm.
I find medical research incredibly complicated. I mean it’s a totally different language. We
have one new governor called Sir David Cooksey. David Cooksey, I honestly don’t know the
detail of all his background, but he understands some of the science. He was Chairman of the
Audit Commission, he’s on the Court of the Bank of England, he’s a...he’s a pretty able
fellow. And he is the nearest we’ve come to an all-rounder. But Peter Cazelet[ph] and I
really don’t understand the science, but we do understand how scientists are inclined to
overspend, and we understand the relevant importance of the various projects that we might
be funding. That’s the larger ones. We have pretty good debates about it all, the...we now
have five scientific governors and three laymen, Peter Cazelet[ph] goes in February and
David Cooksey came in a little bit early, so we’ll be back to seven in all. But we have pretty
deep debates.
And presumably that will stay an interest for you, even when you’re no longer with the Trust,
won’t it? I mean, it’s not [inaudible].
I think so. Oh it certainly, no it’s bound to, the world of medical research. And I do think, it
sounds rather odd, but the fact that I was very ill twenty years ago, has stood me in
enormously good stead from that point of view, you know, one has a natural extra interest.
Mhm. And is the world of medical research full of little intrigues and internal politics, or
not?
Much more so than the City of London. The City of London is tremendously straightforward
and uncomplicated, compared to the world of medical research. And, I think bankers are
rather nicer to each other than scientists.
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And was that a shock?
It was a surprise, it was a surprise, these eminent people arguing the toss about something
when I obviously didn’t understand the rights and wrongs of a particular argument maybe,
but they would go at each other tooth and nail. But after the debate was over, they seemed to
be very good friends again. But they would...they would...the intellectual argument, you
know, really got going apace.
But it was intelletual rather than personal?
Oh yes.
Right.
But I saw, it seemed to be a bit personal to me, but it wasn’t.
Mhm. And do you find that depressing at all, or engaging, or...?
Oh I find it quite stimulating. I quite...quite amusing too.
Mhm.
Quite amusing to watch.
And how about the wider politics that, how much do they impinge on medical research?
What, you mean Government?
Government, public opinion, I mean, is there for instance enormous pressure from
homosexuals to put more and more money into AIDS?
Not...no. I mean I think in our case, you know, having been in such a substantial [inaudible]
Wellcome, Wellcome plc, who are spending, I don’t know what they were spending on AIDS
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research for perfecting this drug AZT, Retrovir, but you know, twenty million, thirty million
a year, and therefore Wellcome had a name for spending money on AIDS research, and we
did actually fund the first AIDS research, the Trust did, in this country in ’82 I think or ’83.
And, so no, we haven’t come under pressure there. Government is...the problem with
Government is, I mean fifteen years ago our income was five million a year, and now it’s
three hundred million a year; the Medical Research Council, the Government, you know,
medical research arm, has a similar spendable income, but they have their own, laboratory’s
own institutions. So if you’re talking about spending in the universities, funding the brilliant
individuals, their teams, their equipment, and on rare occasions their buildings, if you’re
talking about that, we would be four times as large as the, as the Medical Research Council.
The problem, we have a very good relationship with the MRC, Sir David Plastow, who was
Chairman, and the Chief Executive, Dai Rees[ph], or the Director, Dai Rees[ph], you know,
they have a very good relationship with the governors of the Wellcome Trust, and the staff,
and particularly the Director, our Director, Bridget Ogilvy[??]. But there’s always in the
back of one’s mind, you know, we mustn’t let the Government off the hook. I mean our job
is to promote medical research, and apart from spending our own money, we must be
absolutely certain that it doesn’t replace Government funding.
Mhm.
And that is a constant battle. The scientific adviser to the Government in recent years, a man
called Bill Stewart, Sir William Stewart. And I think he understood that, and respected our
view, and I think it went pretty well, that side of things. Now Sir John Cadogan [emphasis on
long o] as he calls himself, as opposed to Cadogan [o pronounced as short u], Sir John
Cadogan, I think he has less sympathy to the Wellcome Trust from that angle. I think he
feels, you know, we should go on and paddle our own canoe, and they’ll do their thing. And
if they think we’re doing too much in an area, they’ll probably cut back.
It sounds very unconstructive, that approach.
Yes, he’s an interesting chap, Sir John Cadogan. But I don’t agree with much of what he
says.
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Mhm. And are there times when the research divides people about whether they think it’s
going down the right path or not, and where the Government might be funding research in a
directly different line from research that you’re funding, or is it never as black and white as
that?
I don’t think it’s as black and white as that. I think that... No, I mean, there are so many
different views as to what should be the priorities, and, there’s so much.....
[break in recording]
.....and there’s so much room for those priorities to be pursued by whoever.
And, I personally have got to the point where, with people of a very wide age range, I almost
know more people who’ve got cancer than people who haven’t. Is this peculiar to me, or
not? I mean it seems to me...
What a depressing statistic. I suppose it’s partly to...I mean you’re much younger than me,
but it’s, we’re all getting older, and, it’s more prevalent in older people.
Well I know people in their thirties...
Mhm.
Upwards and downwards. I mean, a lot of people. I mean is it just coincidence? It seems to
me there’s a sort of epidemic of it.
I would guess it’s being recognised earlier nowadays than it has been in the past. I think it is
you actually. I mean I think you’ve been particularly unlucky to know, have to many friends
who’ve got this problem. I know quite a number, but, no I would say it’s still a sprinkling,
thank goodness.
Right. And, there seems to me sort of various cancer research projects that are almost
competitive with one another. Is that the...?
Well taking the two big cancer charities, first of all the Wellcome Trust does not fund cancer.
We believe that cancer is as heavily funded as any area of medical research, and therefore we
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believe we should focus on the broad spread of other problems. As you know, they say, they
being the experts, that half of us die of heart problems, a quarter of us due of cancer, an
eighth of respiratory problems, and an eighth of the rest. But on the cancer front, the two
major cancer charities, Imperial Cancer Research Fund have their own laboratories at
Lincoln’s Inn Fields and Clare[ph] Hall, down in Hertfordshire, and the Cancer Research
Campaign doesn’t have its own laboratories, so they’re two totally different things. So
people will say, oh the cancer charities should merge, and you know, as you say, there’s so
much administrative costs, it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t work in actual fact. They’ve got different
philosophies. But, they’re big, I mean, the Imperial Cancer Research Fund, its income this
year will be in the region of £60 million, and I would guess that CRC would be getting close
to £50 million, certainly it’s £45 million, so I mean, they’re quite big figures.
And would you personally give donations to them?
Would I? Well I was on the council of ICRF for some time, and then, because of conflicts of
interest I went from that. But they persuaded me that I should say on the finance and
investment committees, because overall policy isn’t discussed there, and therefore there’s no
conflict. I’m not sure about that, but, anyway I’m still on them. And... I can’t even
remember what your question was.
Whether you personally would give donations.
Would I give...
...you say you’re giving your time.
Well, I take the view that... I mean I do give money to charity, not in a major way by any
means, but you know, bits and pieces throughout the year, but I wouldn’t give to ICRF, I
don’t think there’s any...I think I...I really do put in a bit of time there. And, but the
Macmillan[??] Nurses, I don’t know, I seem to give an appeal for the Macmillan[??] Nurses,
certainly once a month from some friend or other, they’re the people I support most, because
it’s a wonderful set-up, but also because it’s...so many of my friends seem to be involved in
it.
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Right. So, in terms of the research that Wellcome funds, it is it large the heart problem, is
that...?
No no no no no, it’s a very very broad spread. I mean Alzheimer’s, you know the brain,
whatever. I mean it’s really the whole spectrum, or aspects of the whole spectrum.
And nearly always in Britain, or is it international?
Ninety-seven per cent in the UK. We...Henry Wellcome, when we did our share sale in ’92.
I think I may have said this before, but I’ll say it quickly again, we gave $400 million to our
sister charity over there, the Boroughs[??] Wellcome, which is run on exactly the same basis
as the Wellcome Trust, and they look after North America, and we don’t get involved in
North America. But the old Commonwealth which Henry Wellcome was extremely keen on,
Australia, New Zealand – we’ll leave Canada out of it, because they come under North
America, but Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, we fund to the tune of, say a couple
of million pounds a year each, that sort of thing. And it’s growing, that will grow.
Right. But not Africa or anywhere like that?
South Africa. Africa? Well, it’ll come I think, it’ll come.
Right. And just finishing off sort of, your day yesterday. I mean, compared to the kind of
pressure you were in at certain times in the City, and not including share of the times with
Wellcome or whatever, how did life feel in terms of pressure[??????]?
I think that it’s...there’s less pressure. In my old job, you were running a book of, say, £4
billion, and basically you had a billion of that on the trade figures at 11.30. So there’s a little
bit of tension, you know, coming up to 11.30, announce the market [inaudible] move sharply
one way or the other, you’ve either got it wrong or you’ve got it right. There were eight
people taking the decisions. OK, I as Chairman took the ultimate decision, but sometimes
there were six people very keen we should be on the bull tack, and two people saying, you
know, ‘You’re all wrong, it’s going to turn sour.’ And you go onto the bull tack, and it turns
sour. Well then there are, you know, there are two people you need to chat up and get on
your side again. I mean it’s, it’s...it was a [inaudible] hair-raising business and waiting for
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the Bank of England to announce their policy for the day at ten o’clock, and then they change
it at twelve o’clock, and whether you’re going to be forced to go into the Bank at a high rate
of interest late in the day, et cetera. I mean it’s... Or whether you should bid up for money or
should wait for it to come flowing in, because there were meant to be some disbursement and
they never arrive. I mean, it’s all tension-making, as you probably gathered from Henry
Erskine[??].
And in terms of being in the Wellcome building and the people working around you there, it’s
fairly calm and...?
Well it’s so different in that, what I find so extraordinary is, you know, there are very few
senior people in the Wellcome building at any one time; they’re either, you know, receiving a
medal in Los Angeles, or giving a lecture in Sydney, or, you know, they’re maybe out at
some local meeting, I mean, UCH or whatever. But, it doesn’t seem to matter. I find this
very difficult, it matters to me, I think there should be more senior people in the Trust at any
one time, and I think I am actually right and there will be more senior people in the Trust at
any one time. But in Gerrard National[??] in the City, we had our eight managing directors,
and inevitably five would be in the office at any one time, and, but that was a really hands-on
second-by-second business. This is so much longer-term.
So you’re feeling that there should be more senior people there. Is it to do with
psychological things rather than practical things?
Well I just think, people should be available.
To whom?
To outside inquirers. I mean, there’s bound to be at some stage or other some drama about
some statement we’ve made and has been misinterpreted or whatever. It’s on the sort of PR
side I think that, I think it’s important... It’s very important I think to be able to react
instantaneously to anything that might be going slightly wrong, so you’re always on top of it.
And is it also that you would actually prefer to feel you were with a team? Do you feel
slightly isolated?
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I am, compared to the City, totally isolated. I mean I’m, you know, in my very nice room
with my very nice secretary next door, and we get on with it. No, it’s... I’m not lonely, I like
it, but I think it would be better if there were more of us around.
Mhm.
Quite honestly.
And, coming now to Glaxo.
Yes.
Before you were asked to lunch with Sir Richard Sykes...
Yes.
...no thought of Glaxo had entered your head?
It had been rumoured that, [inaudible] rumoured that various people were interested in
Wellcome, but it had been rumoured that various people were interested in Zeneca[ph] or
whatever, I mean [inaudible] all those American ones, Pfeizer and... There are lots of
different companies, Warner Lambert and... Anyway, there were lots of rumours around. I
suppose Glaxo was rumoured for about a year. I rather dismissed it, because my view was,
and I suppose you can say this was the Trust’s view, my view was, say a year before the
Glaxo bid, so we’re going back to January ’94, the Wellcome shares in March ’94, I happen
to know, had fallen to £4.90 on one particular afternoon, and, I thought there was a very good
reason for them to be much lower than they used to be, and that was very simply that sales of
the two big drugs, Zovirax, the shingles, herpes and chickenpox drug, which now sells about
£800 million worth a year, and Retrovir, AZT, the AIDS treatment which sells just over £200
million a year, they’re coming to the end of their life, and the sharp rise in sales in Zovirax in
particular was slowing down, and Retrovir was actually looking quite patchy. And the
pipeline was quite promising [inaudible] but there was nothing coming through in the next
year or two, and it was such a highly rated stock, it came down in rating from its peak in
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March ’92 – sorry, January ’92, from a very...very close to forty times price earnings ratio,
that’s in early ’92. To early ’94, just two years later, to a nine-and-a-half times price earnings
ratio. Which is rating it on the one hand as one of the great shooting starts of all time, of big
stocks, to a rather dull income stock with very few prospects. So, we still had 39.6 per cent
of Wellcome, and when there were rumours about Glaxo around, or anything else around, I
mean quite honestly one didn’t take too much notice, because I couldn’t believe that anyone
would pay a competitive price, and we had diversified to a large extent already. And, so we
only had forty per cent of our assets in one share, and we’re used to having ninety-five or a
hundred per cent.
But, in the position you were in, is it part of your constant thinking, should we get rid of some
shares, should we bring someone in, or are there actually patches where you don’t think
about it at all, you just think life is fairly steady at the moment?
I...I think I can safely say that there wouldn’t have been a single day in the last nine years
since we went public that I haven’t thought about the company. Even now. I mean before
you came in, I pressed the old Ceefax and, I mean it’s habit. Glaxo Wellcome are 5p cheaper
today; so what, I mean it’s not important. But, I automatically, I mean I just watch the thing
the whole time. And I believe that if you’ve got a huge investment like we’ve had in
Wellcome and now Glaxo Wellcome, you jolly well do watch it the whole time. You’ve got
to have the feel, because then you can react to whatever comes along.
But I was just saying, it is a reaction to, rather than making decisions back, initiating
something, in those periods?
Oh yes. We have an agreement as you know with the company not to initiate anything for at
least five years. We told the company, I wouldn’t say repeatedly, because it irritated them so
much, but often enough, so that they should really understand the point, that when we signed
those documents in 1992 it was made quite clear to us that, to have their co-operation over
the share sale that we needed to sign these documents saying that we would try and stop
anyone having more than ten per cent. I can’t remember all the things, but that we would not
approach anyone regarding our shareholding for at least five years, we wouldn’t do this, we
wouldn’t the other, that we wouldn’t talk to any other potential bidder, and...anyway,
[inaudible]. We [inaudible] so we could get ahead with the 1992 share sale, and we needed
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the company’s co-operation. But at the end [[inaudible] documents it says that despite what’s
written in these documents it must be clearly understood that the Trust reserves the right to
act in the bests interests of its charity at all times and in no other way, and they knew
perfectly well what the form was. But what happened over Glaxo...
Sorry, can I...
Yes.
Before we get on to that. I mean, wasn’t it basically an unreasonable document to ask you to
sign? I mean, there was always going to be a conflict. It was a sort of...
It was interesting actually, because Alistair Frame[ph], who was... They tried to push
[[inaudible] further, and I can’t honestly remember the actual points, but they really tried to
push us all the way. They had been advised by very tough lawyers, and they saw this as a
chance to keep us locked in for, you know, another five years. But Alistair Frame[ph]... I
mean John Roberts[??] pretty tough about all this, perfectly civilised but pretty tough about it.
Alistair Frame[ph], the Chairman, pushed us as far as he thought he could, and his board
were saying, ‘Push them further,’ and I said to him, ‘Look, we’d better go into a room on our
own, and just talk this one through.’ He said, ‘What a frightfully good idea.’ And he said,
‘I’ve pushed you as far as I can, I think.’ And, I said, ‘You have, yes. And we’re not
budging one single inch further.’ And, he said, ‘OK. You know, you are after a seventythree per cent shareholder. I’ll tell my colleagues but they won’t like it.’ And they didn’t
like it. Anyway, Alistair Frame[ph] was very sensible. But there was one wonderful moment
with Alistair. There were three outstanding points, and it was...it was on Derby Day as it
actually happened, there were three major points we had a disagreement on, and the meeting
started at two o’clock at the Savoy, and it seemed to be a place where everyone was going to
be quite near, and anyway, the lawyers I think had a meeting or had an early lunch there with
some other people. So we all met at two o’clock, and there were three burning topics. We
were entrenched on, on these three points, both sides were... And, the Derby was at 3.35, and
at quarter past three we were still entrenched. And Alistair Frame[ph] said, ‘Right, you can
pick one of these three, and you can have it, on condition I can then pick one of the remaining
two and have it. And then we’ll talk about the third one. Because we have got twenty
minutes to decide on the third one.’ So I disappeared for five minutes with my lawyer chaps,
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[inaudible] Jones from Cameron [inaudible] Hewitt[ph]; he thought it was a most unorthodox
way to behave. Anyway, we said we don’t really actually care about B, so they can have B,
and then he grabbed the one we did care about most, but that was fair enough. And the last
one, with three minutes to go towards, to the Derby, and he was quite keen to watch the
Derby, so was I, and, he suddenly said, ‘Do you know what the awful thing is? I have slight
sympathy for the Trust over this last one.’ And his lawyer absolutely appalled, from
Slaughters[??], Colin...I can’t remember, hew as absolutely appalled, and he said, ‘Well let’s
go through it very quickly.’ And, it was quite clear they, you know, they didn’t really mind
too much. So anyway, he gave us that one. And we watched the Derby, and, I can’t
remember who won the Derby that year, but, anyway the one was 8 to 1 and be backed it. So
he was very pleased about that.
And had you backed anybody?
No, I hadn’t. (laughs)
[End of F5223 Side B]
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Tape 11 [F5224] Side A (part 21)
The Wednesday afternoon?
Yes.
Nothing...nothing really happened. I mean there was a lot of chat obviously.
And you were presumably brief all the time?
[pause] No, I mean I...I said to Fleming’s[??] that I’m not the slightest bit interested unless
there’s something that we have absolutely no alternative but to consider. So, that went on.
The following Tuesday morning I had a meeting with Tenant and Rob[??] on a sort of
quarterly basis chat, and they said that, ‘You know, we really can’t say anything at this stage,
but we are working on various different alternatives,’ et cetera et cetera, you know, same old
gramophone record quite honestly. And, I sat there and listened, and didn’t really contribute,
and that was that. I was in an extremely difficult position, because obviously it was possible
there would be a bid.
Did they pick up at all that you weren’t quite as...?
I don’t think so. I went to Scotland on the two o’clock train, and there’s a dispute between
Fleming’s[??] and me as to whether it was when I spoke to them on the train or when I got to
Scotland, but they were the two conversations, and it doesn’t really matter. But, they told me
that they thought there was a good chance that...I think it was on the train, that they said there
was a good chance shares were £6.58, that Glaxo would wish to bid £9 a share. We actually
thought they were worth about £6, not £6.58, that was our view, and might be slipping
further. So, that made me think quite a lot. And by that evening, at about 10.30 I think it
was, [inaudible] Taylor[??] rang me again where I was staying with some friends in Scotland,
and said, ‘It looks as if, and one really can’t, you know, be held to this, but I think we might
get them to even ten quid.’ This was Tuesday. On Thursday – sorry, on...yes that was
Tuesday – also said there’s a board meeting, main board meeting, of Glaxo on the
Wednesday afternoon, the next day, and he, Sykes, is going to put a proposal to his board,
but, he’s not that confident they’ll accept it.
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Why would they be offering such a huge price? I’m very sure it’s [inaudible].
Shall we come to that later?
OK.
So I just get this absolutely [inaudible] straight. On the Thursday night I was staying with
another friend, who happened to be Chief Executive or whatever of Hambros Bank, Chips
Keswick, and, there was a telephone call for me, and, so I answered it, and, I said, ‘Actually,
where are you? Can I take the number, so then, I’ll ring you back some time.’ And, so I
went up to my room with my little mobile and rang back, and it was Bernard Taylor. And he
said that the board had approved Sykes’s proposal, and it was possible that by the Friday
night we would receive a letter. So I ring at seven o’clock on, or whatever it was, on Friday
night, and, the letter had arrived, and the bid was £10.25 a share, seventy per cent in cash, and
thirty per cent in the new Glaxo Wellcome shares, or Glaxo shares, and the shares were
£6.44, and yielding six per cent, and therefore they looked cheap. So, it wa really a cash bid.
And it turned out that, now, if you looked at the screen, Glaxo shares or Glaxo Wellcome
shares are £8.50. so taking shares was a good plan. And, the £10.25 actually works out at
£11.20 in November the 14th terms, you know, six months old, nine months after the bid. So,
as the market price was £6.83 on the day of the bid, and now £11.20 nine months later, it’s,
you know, it’s pretty good news from our point of view and our beneficiaries’ point of view.
I telephoned... I had said a week earlier to two of my colleagues, Peter Cazelet[ph], the other
lay governor, David Cookes who wasn’t a governor yet, and Julian Jack[ph], that it was
possible that there might be something cropping up in the next few weekends, you know,
where would they be, for instance, next weekend? So, I rang at eight o’clock in the morning,
I told Julian Jack[ph], this was on the Saturday morning, I rang ands aid that we must have a
meeting, all of us, at three o’clock tomorrow afternoon, Sunday, and I said I cannot say what
it is, but I’m sure you can guess what it is, and it’s incredibly important to us, more important
than anything that’s happened to the Trust in its history, and they knew exactly what it was,
and there’d been speculation in the papers too. And I then... And Julian Jack[ph] very kindly
agreed to speak to all the other scientific colleagues, and I then rang Peter Caselet[ph]. So,
by an extraordinary quirk of circumstances Christopher Sporborg[ph] of Hambros who was
staying with Chips Keswick suddenly said, on the, I think it was at breakfast on the Saturday
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morning, ‘You know, the awful thing is Chips, that I really must catch the first flight back
tomorrow, to London, which means leaving here at an unearthly hour of 5.30 in the morning
and driving to Edinburgh and catching the first shuttle down. But I really, I’ve got to be back
mid-morning.’ And I said, ‘Well quite honestly Chips, you know, it sounds rather stupid,
but, I’ve got a hell of a lot on my plate, I just, I’d rather do the same. And I’ll go with
Sporborg[ph] to keep [inaudible] company.’ So I was back here at 9.30 in the morning. And,
there was...there were various letters here for me. And there was one letter, a second letter,
from Richard Sykes, written to Bernard Taylor, saying that in my previous letter of Friday I
said that it was imperative that the Trust did nothing to the company{:???????}. And if they
do, we disappear. I would like to reiterate in this letter, or confirm in this letter, that what I
said, I’m underlining that particular point, that if they speak to anyone at any level in the
company, we will disappear.
But why was that?
Now, I pleaded with them, and with Richard Sykes that evening, he came to see us at
Fleming’s[??], and I said, ‘I have got to talk to John Rob[ph], and he said, ‘You can’t.’ He
said, ‘If you do, we will disappear. Were not going to get involved in, you know, a major
argy-bargy.’ So, after...he didn’t say this, but we know perfectly well what he feared,
because it came out afterwards, that he feared that the immediate reaction of the company
would be to slap an injunction on us, and get us going to court before anything could happen
at all, and there would be the most frightful public debate and argument. And Glaxo did not
want that. They also wanted to be absolutely certain, they had close on forty per cent of the
company, and you know, to put themselves in an unsaleable position. Although we said that
we would accept, subject to High Court approval, and subject to no higher bid from any other
quarter. Now the second bit, Wellcome Plc would say it was worth absolutely nothing
because with Glaxo having such a strong hold on the situation, anyone who bid a higher price
would know that Glaxo would come in and cap it, which is actually not true, but I mean
it’s...you could paint that scenario.
But if there were things in the press, I mean, wasn’t John Rob[ph] sort of banging at your
door, saying, ‘Talk to me, talk to me’?
No. No. Never spoke to me about it.
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Why not?
Well, I think it’s the most extraordinary aspect of the whole thing. And I would say to him, I
mean I would say to him, ‘John, I am...’ if he had, ‘I am in the most impossible position, and
I can say nothing, and we leave it like that.’ And then he would have realised.
But, so was he just putting a pillow over his head, or...?
He thought that, he thought that there was a poison pill, and that we would stop any take-over
bids, so he needn’t worry. They were very poorly advised I think, very poorly advised.
And was he taking advice at this stage, or was he just not realising what was happening?
I simply don’t know.
Extraordinary isn’t it.
So, we then signed...
Sorry, can we just go back as you were doing. You then have a three o’clock meeting at
Fleming’s. What happened there?
Fleming’s did a presentation, and explained that they thought that the company was fairly
fully valued as it stood, at £6.83. And they thought that a price of £10.25, seventy per cent
cash and thirty per cent in shares was an incontrovertibly high offer, and one that we really
had no alternative but to accept. Our leading counsel and his number two, Christopher
McCall[ph] and his number two, were there, and they had been looking after and advising the
trust for some while, four lawyers from...three lawyers, three lawyers from Cameron
Marcby[ph] were there, who had been looking after the Trust since our inception, and they
were, you know, very... So we had sessions with them, and, I had a private session with
Christopher McCall[ph]. He was the sort of leading charity, he is the leading charity counsel
there is, and I went through the whole thing with him again, and said, ‘I told you a year ago
that I thought it was odds against there would be a bid, and certainly odds against there would
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be a bid that we felt that we to accept. But,’ I said, ‘there is a chance, and we must be
prepared.’ And we’d had several meetings with Christopher McCall[ph] during the year,
[inaudible] three years. And he was so up to speed on the whole thing, and he said that, you
know, you have to look at this from your beneficiaries’ point of view, and you have to put all
personal wishes and all personal thoughts, I mean however strongly held, aside, and look at it
from your beneficiaries’ point of view. If you believe that this is an incontrovertibly high
offer, you have to very seriously consider it.’ And, so I said, ‘Well I think it really is a billion
and a half worth...worth a billion and a half more than we can reasonably expect, certainly in
the next two years and certainly a billion more than we can reasonably expect in the next five
years, and there is a real fear of a major downside, you know, things could turn sour and
Wellcome could be left [inaudible].’ Anyway, we went through the whole thing, and, so that
was...he confirmed that his view was that it was the only course but to accept, and I went
through this thing about talking to John Rob[ph] and he said, ‘Well you know, there’s
nothing you can do about it, you can have one final try.’
What were you feeling?
Awful. Then...
Because... Sorry, before you go on. When Richard Sykes was saying this, did you actually
feel it was very unreasonable, or could you understand his position?
No, I knew exactly...
Did it put you off him?
He was a hundred per cent right. He was a hundred per cent right. I mean I could see that
like a pikestaff. It saddened me. And I was trying to find a way where one could warn Rob
and Tenant[ph] without sort of undermining the whole thing. Now it could have been bluff, it
could have been bluff, but they were so keen to buy Wellcome, and, that they’d been snubbed
by other people. It could have been bluff. We could not take that risk. I mean I put that to
McCall[ph], it’s probably bluff. And he said, ‘It is probably bluff. But, it may not be, and
you are not in a position to take the risk. You just simply aren’t. The stakes are too high.’
So, we signed at quarter to ten, having had a presentation from Richard Sykes, and getting
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certain guarantees out of him, like John Rob[ph] would be offered the non-executive deputy
chairmanship of Glaxo Wellcome, et cetera.
[break in recording]
Had John Rob[ph] and Richard Sykes ever met? Presumably not.
I don’t think so, no. I don’t think so. What have we got to there?
You were talking about getting confirmation that the job would be offered to John Rob[ph].
Yes. Which Richard Sykes very readily said, you know, ‘[inaudible] at the moment Deputy
Chairman and Chief Executive, and I’m quite prepared to give up the deputy chairmanship to
John Rob[ph],’ which I didn’t think was, you know, [inaudible] quite an offer. Anyway, so,
we were very impressed with Sykes, and what he had to say, and he had his finance director
with him. And, he didn’t way very much, because Sykes had such a [inaudible] the whole
thing, scientific and finance, very impressive. Anyway we signed at quarter to ten, and I
knew perfectly well that signing that document, that it may well be that 3,000 people who had
been marvellous and loyal to us would be out of work, and, one didn’t enjoy it one jot.
Did it all seem rather unreal?
I’d lived with it so much it became real. But I think to my colleagues, they all knew that
something was going to happen one day, whether it was going to be satisfactory [inaudible]
satisfactory, something was going to happen. So they were slightly tuned in. but, I think
they were absolutely stunned by the price.
I still don’t understand, why was Glaxo offering such a huge price?
Well, the main reason, the press would say, is that the savings of being able to reduce the
sales force – [inaudible] the sales force, the number of people who worked for the group from
65,000 to 55,000, I mean does save an enormous amount of money, and, they would also
now, instead of having sixty-two products that they’re working on or potential products, that
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they would have eighty-five, and they were going to cut that back anyway to fifty or
whatever it was. So, they would be able to.....
[break in recording]
If you go back to [inaudible] they would be able to tighten, you were saying...
Yes, they would be able to tighten the overall ship, and make massive savings. They would
also become overnight the largest pharmaceutical company in the world, overtaking
Merk[??], that’s in terms of sales, and that is how it’s measured, I mean they’re recognised
[inaudible] pharmaceutical company in the world, they’ve become the largest company in
Britain; at the moment Glaxo Wellcome is valued at £30 billion in the stock market, and the
next largest is BP at £26 billion. So they’d suddenly become a world force of considerable
importance. And they’d make a lot of savings. They... We said we weren’t the slightest bit
interested in doing the deal unless the company was called Glaxo Wellcome, and he said,
‘Well of course it’s going to be called Glaxo Wellcome, and Wellcome is an extremely
important name in the world of medical research, and Glaxo originally came from some soap
product, and, you know, to have something...I mean you know, it’s good news for Glaxo.’ I
mean he had all the right answers, but he would say that, that wouldn’t be...oh he would say
those sort of things, wouldn’t he? But, no I think those are the main reasons why they wanted
Wellcome.
And at the point when you signed, how many people knew what was happening?
I was the only person apart from whoever at Fleming’s and whoever at Cameron Markby[ph],
our lawyers, and Christopher McCall[ph], I mean [inaudible] the advisers out of it, I was the
only person who knew until Saturday morning at eight o’clock, and none of the others knew,
but they all guessed, until three o’clock on Sunday. So they only had a very few hours to
make their minds up. But, and you know, John Robbe[ph] [[inaudible] the most
extraordinary performance, to throw a company down the drain that you’ve [inaudible]
nurtured the trust, and you’ve been very close to for, whatever it is, 110 years, and in a few
short hours, you couldn’t have had time to think it through. Well the answer is that we
thought it through very very carefully over a long period; we were in a position where we
could react at a moment’s notice. I mean it was a big decision, but one can safely say now, as
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we sit here now, nine months later or ten months later, that it was so much the right decision,
because what’s happened since, the two main drugs, as we know, is Zovirax and Retrovir, in
the Wellcome portfolio, that in the six months to the 30th of June this year, Zovirax sales are
up two per cent, and Retrovir sales are down twelve per cent, and goodness knows what
would have happened to the share price of Wellcome on that.
But I can’t really see that there were any arguments against what you did in fact. I mean,
what could have swayed you in the other direction really? I mean there was nothing else you
could do.
Sentiment.
Exactly. But I mean...
And I think if you are someone who cares about people, and most people care about people,
and you are putting into turmoil the lives of a lot of people who have done you very well, you
know, it’s...it’s not easy.
But that’s a rather short-term, because if as you say...
I know, I know.
...things aren’t going to go well, they’re going to be in turmoil with nothing so to speak.
It had to be done, it was...it was...I mean it... Yes. We then had the...we’re not allowed to
talk about the court case, but what happened was that...
Sorry, before we get to the court case. I mean how did John Rob[ph] actually find this news
out? What were the communications having signed?
My job obviously, having got to bed at 1.30 or whatever it was, was to get hold of John
Rob[ph] first thing in the morning.
And what state were you in when you went to bed that night?
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Terribly tired. So I just went straight to sleep.
But were you in a sort of state of shock, or did it just seem, right, that was the end of a
particularly difficult piece of business?
Had to be done. Had to be done. I hated it, but it had to be done. But I was comforted...
Sorry. Were you depressed?
Flat. Not depressed, but flat. But I had the total support of my colleagues, total, absolutely
unequivocal. And although they were all sad as well. So, I know that...I mean I knew that
John Rob[ph] was going to be around that week, and I knew that he always left his house at
five to seven in the morning, you know, to beat the traffic, coming up from Esham[??], and
so, I rang at five past seven on his car telephone, and this, you know, machine is not on, and
whatever, you know. So I rang at twenty past...oh, ten past, quarter past, twenty past, twentyfive past. Twenty-five past seven there was no reply. So, I then rang his house, and as it
happened, Janet was away or whatever, or had gone off early, anyway she wasn’t in, there
was nobody in the house, there was no reply from the house. So I then rang Anthony
Tenant[ph] in his flat in London, and we had all the numbers, we always had all the telephone
numbers, you know, just in case there’s a drama. And, he was in the bath, so he wasn’t very
pleased about that. And, I said, ‘I’ve been trying to get hold of John Rob[ph] since, you
know, for the past half hour, but his car telephone’s not on, but I have got something
extremely important to say, and that is that late last night we accepted a bid of £10.25 a share
for our shareholding in Wellcome from Glaxo.’ And he said, ‘Oh.’ He said, ‘It really isn’t
frightfully helpful.’ And, I said, ‘Well, it’s not frightfully helpful from your personal point of
view, or John’s point of view, or from, I’m sure, many people in the company’s point of
view, but the fact is that we think it is such a high price that we have no alternative but to
accept it on behalf of our beneficiaries, and that is the advice of each and every adviser within
each and every advisory firm who looks after us. And we’ve even been to leading
counsel[??] et cetera et cetera. But it is of course subject to High Court approval, it’s subject
to no higher bid from elsewhere.’ He said, ‘Well the deed’s done isn’t it, by the sound of it.’
I said, ‘It is, and it’s going to be announced very shortly. And, we can’t get hold of John.’
‘Well,’ he said, ‘I’ve got a Christie’s board meeting at nine o’clock, so I think that’s
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enormously helpful timing from my point of view, so...’ et cetera et cetera. So I said, ‘Well
what we’re going to do is that Peter Cazelet[ph] and I are now going to go round to
Wellcome Plc’s head office, and we’re going to wait for John to arrive, and tell him. And,
you know, all you should know Anthony is, this has been, this decision has been taken, you
know, after a great deal of thought and heart-searching, but I’m afraid it’s done.’ And he
said, ‘Well, what’s done is done. And, OK, you go round and wait for John. And no doubt
we’ll be in touch during the week.’ So, that was that. We went round, and, I suppose we
must have got round there, I can’t remember, at eight o’clock, that sort of time. And John
Rob[ph] was held up in the traffic, his car didn’t start so he took his daughter’s car, et cetera
et cetera, you can imagine. But Keith Merryfield[ph], one of the directors, main board
directors was there, who I knew extremely well, and, we said we’d come to see John
Robbe[ph], and moment he comes in, you know, could we see him before he even takes his
coat off, because we’ve got something very important to say. And he said, well you know,
‘Have a coup of coffee while you’re waiting, and by the way, what is it?’ So we told him.
And, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘yes, really? Milk and sugar?’ You know, I mean totally unmoved. I
mean he was a jolly good actor, but I mean he was obviously disappointed, but, he
understood. And when John Robbe[ph] came in...
Hold on.
[End of F5224 Side A]
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Tape 11 [F5224] Side B (part 22)
Do you think the fact that John Robb’s portable phone was not plugged in was some sort of
psychological foreboding? I mean it seems very odd that it shouldn’t have been on at that
time.
Well, no, because you see, he took the other car which hadn’t got a car phone.
Oh right, so it wasn’t his mobile phone, it was...
No, no no, no, no no.
Right, OK.
No. We’re not that sophisticated in the world at Wellcome. So, we told John Robb, and, we
saw him about ten minutes before it actually came up on the screen, and we were desperately
trying to delay it coming up on the screen, and the Stock Exchange said, ‘We’ve got to
announce, there’s going to be a false market,’ et cetera et cetera. And, anyway, that was that.
No no no. What happened?
What?
What did you say and how did he react?
Oh what did I say. Well I told him that, I went through what I’ve explained. And I said, ‘I’m
sure John, this is not what you’ve been looking for, and you know, on a personal note, we’re
very sad, and...but we felt, all of us felt, and all our advisers felt, we had absolutely no
alternative. And I obviously pleaded with Glaxo and their advisers that we should tell you, as
we always said we would, both verbally and in writing, if we got a bid we would let you
know about it, it would be the first thing we’d do. I’m afraid our hands were tied, and we
were told under no circumstances could we. And we thought the price was so high that...’
‘But how can you possibly decide whether the price is high?’ So I said, ‘Well, you know, we
do follow the situation very closely, and we do take advice, et cetera et cetera.’ Well, he said,
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you know, ‘Thanks for coming round, and, I think the answer is that, we’d better get in touch
with our advisers as soon as possible.’ I said that, ‘Richard Sykes would like to come right
now and explain their side of the situation,’ and he said, ‘Fine, if he wants to come and see
me, he can come and see me.’ So, we then rang Richard Sykes and he came round to see
John Robb, presumably offered him the deputy chairmanship, et cetera et cetera.
At that stage, was John Robb reacting as you would have expected?
Yes. Cautious, polite, friendly. But sad. During the week, the press coverage was pretty
unpleasant. I think they’d discussed the possibility of having a sort of scorched earth policy,
character assassination, trust not fit to act, and all that sort of stuff, but held back from that
because they thought that was probably counter-productive, and I’m sure they were right.
But anyway then they applied to go to the court, and we ended up in the court for a total of
two-and-a-half days, but we’re not allowed to talk about that.
But, did you find it a great source of anxiety, or not?
I found it extraordinarily unpleasant. But, I was pretty calm about it all really. I mean it had
to be done. They wanted me to go and see them throughout the Monday, the Tuesday and the
Wednesday, because they had four days, that was another thing we had in the thing we had in
the agreement, they had four days to produce the proverbial rabbit out of the hat, and for their
advisers to put it to our advisers, and if we were impressed with their potential defence
document, we could change our minds and, and we’d made this quite clear to Glaxo as well,
we could change our minds. And, so that was that. During the week, it was Anthony
Tennant who was constantly on the telephone to me, trying to persuade me to go round and
talk to them. And I said, ‘Look Anthony, I can’t; I mean the arrangement is that it’s adviser
to adviser, and I cannot get involved.’ And he said, ‘No, you need help, you need...’ all this,
and... I said, ‘Look, I’m sorry, I just cannot do it, and, I’m not coming round to see you
before, whatever it is, Thursday midnight, but after that it’s a different matter.’ So, we then, I
then rang John Robb on the Thursday afternoon to say, we would be making a statement
shortly, and that was that we had not changed our minds, and everything will be going ahead
as planned. And I said, ‘I know you don’t want...it’s just the news you don’t want to get, but
I’m afraid that is the answer. And, you know, you’ll be getting a fax within minutes and it’ll
be announced in half an hour,’ or whatever it is. And, I said that, there we are. So Anthony
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Tennant then rang up and said, ‘Well this has obviously gone down very badly with us; now
we obviously can meet.’ And so we met at four o’clock on the Friday. By then I was
practically exhausted. Not so much depressed but exhausted. And, we went round at four
o’clock, we being me and Philip Bradley from Fleming’s, because the Panel insisted that
there was an adviser with each side, they absolutely insisted on that, and I think it’s probably
quite right of them. And I can safely say the next hour was the most unpleasant hour I’ve
ever spent in my life, by a mile. They were about as, well, you know, sort of, everything was
thrown at one, and...
Sorry, this is from...?
Robb and, and Anthony Tennant.
And when you say everything was thrown at one, you mean on a sort of personal basis, or
what?
Well it was...it was per...it was really personalised. It was always the Trust, but it was
personalised. And, it ended with Anthony Tennant going off to talk to someone, presumably
lawyers down the passage, saying, they just wanted to check if there was anything else he
wanted to say, and, that was that.
But I still don’t understand, what could they actually throw at you? I mean you were so
clearly...
Misleading them. Misleading them. Anyway, he came back and he said, ‘No, that will be it.’
And, John Robb said to the chap from Barings, ‘Will you show them to the door?’ [pause]
So, I said, ‘You can accuse me of anything you wish, but the only thing that could
conceivably stick is that I might have been at some stage a little naïve, but you can accuse me
of nothing else,’ and I left. And we then had the odd unpleasant meeting over the next week
or two, and we had the High Court thing, which was two-and-a-half days, and...
And the High Court thing was because they were still contesting it?
They wanted more time, they wanted more time to find another buyer.
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But what good would another buyer have done? Why would it have been any better?
Well, it’s a very good question. Another buyer would have to be a foreign buyer, because
there was nobody strong enough in Britain. And why was a foreign buyer better than a
British buyer, that was going to create the largest British company and the largest
pharmaceutical company in the world, being a British entity? You could well ask. I don’t
know.
I mean it does sound as though it was just...
Pique.
Partly pique, and partly just a terribly unsophisticated view of the world, which is
astonishing at that level, isn’t it?
I...I think...I think it was astonishing... Yes, I think there are so many astonishing things
about the whole saga. But, I think the thing that really hurt was, there was Gibbs, our friend,
who we trusted; he has sold us down the river. And, we ourselves were not prepared for
every eventuality. And they were kicking themselves for being totally unprepared.
And were you...
And they had to take it out on somebody. And...
And were you expecting it to be like that?
No. I couldn’t believe it. I could not believe that two individuals who I had always got on
with extremely well could react like that. I mean I just could not believe it.
So what did you feel?
What did I feel? I felt that we had even more so done the right thing.
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You didn’t feel like bursting into tears and saying, ‘This isn’t fair’?
No. No no, I’m not like that. I’m not like that.
And who were you able to tell? I mean, if you had somebody living with you or something,
you could have gone back then and said, ‘I’ve just had a really horrible time.’
Yes. Yes.
I mean, do you have a close friend, or do you just keep it to yourself, or what happens?
We talk...I mean I talked to my colleagues about it, a bit, I didn’t burden with the whole
thing, but... I talked quite a lot to Peter Cazalet and Julian Jack about it, and they were
tremendously supportive. I mean all of them were fantastic. They knew it was one hell of a
coup for the Trust, and, you know, not everyone would have been as well prepared as we
were, and I think they were...we were so well prepared.
And given that the Trust was still going to be involved with Wellcome Glaxo...
Yes.
...Glaxo Wellcome, it was pretty short-sighted of the other two to behave in this way anyway
wasn’t it? I mean it wasn’t as if you were just going to never have anything to do with them
again.
No. No, it was...it was an appalling week. But it went on being fairly appalling with the
High Court case, and preparing affidavits, you know, to prepare, I can’t remember what my
affidavit was but, fifty-eight pages? You know, I mean you spend tens and tens of hours on
that sort of thing, saying exactly what had happened at every stage. And knowing that, you
know, it could be shot down in, in court. But, anyway the result of the court case was, they
did get an extension of time, of seven days, because, in America it’s seven days longer than
here, and they were given that sop by the judge: well I think it was a perfectly reasonable sop;
it made absolutely not a ha’pence worth of difference. Anyway, the two-and-a-half days in
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the court, and we are sworn not to talk about it ever, but, one has to say that it was not a
particularly pleasant experience.
Why do you have to swear not to talk about it, what’s the value of that?
Well we have to. I don’t...I don’t know why but that was the, that is the... It was in, you
know, in camera and all that sort of stuff. Anyway, what happened then was, they were
looking round for another buyer, and one representative of one company got in touch with us
and said, ‘If if if if, we might be able to put together, et cetera et cetera.’ It wasn’t real, it was
never a starter, they weren’t strong enough. And, I’m not mentioning who that was, but,
there’s no point in doing that. But I mean that was...that was it. No...
And were they British, or not?
The press say they were British. No other director, in fact I can say that no director of any
pharmaceutical company in the world spoke to me at any stage after the bid was announced.
So there was no interest of any substance anywhere. Because if there was, they must have
spoken to the Trust. Not a flicker anywhere. It was a knockout bid, and nobody was going to
match it.
Did the other sides, give them their due, did they have to apply for those extra days, so they
couldn’t in years to come be accused of not having tried to [inaudible]?
Oh I think so. I mean I think it’s perfectly reasonable to apply for that. Oh yes, I mean I’m
not complaining about that. [pause] Then, they went on fighting it and fighting it and
fighting it, until it became absolutely inevitable, and I can’t remember what the exact date,
but say the 8th of March. There was supposedly, one of the Swiss companies was seriously
considering making a bid, but they never got in touch with us, and we know them, so I mean
that was a very odd one. Anyway we were...that was a name that was flicked around. And
so, I think the whole process was coming to an end on the Wednesday at noon, and on the
Monday evening John Robb got in touch with Richard Sykes and said, you know, ‘You’ve
won, and we’ll back the bid.’
Do you know how that was done? Was it done by phone, or letter or...?
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I honestly don’t know what happened, but...
It must have been a very bitter moment for him, wasn’t it?
Horrid. No, I think that they fought as good a fight as they could have done in the
circumstances. But I mean as John Robb said, it is extraordinary that we, who know the
company extremely well, we the board of the company, are unanimous in the view that the
bid is totally inadequate, and you are, who don’t know the company that well, are unanimous
that the view...that the bid is incontrovertibly high. Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?
But there aren’t many cases that I’ve come across where things have ended, a) with such
personal animosity, but b) with...without everybody in the end coming round and saying,
‘Actually this was a reasonable price.’ I mean would he now still say the same?’
Oh, I think that, nobody would say anything other than it was an extraordinarily good deal,
from our beneficiaries’ point of view. But, equally it’s still very sad. But I mean this is
happening. I mean, as Roy Vagilis[ph], who was Chief Executive of Merck, which was the
pharmaceutical company in the world, for nine years and then Chairman for ten years, or, I
mean he was...he ran it to all intents... No, sorry, he was head of research and development,
R&D, for nine years, and then was Chief Executive or Chairman for the next ten. But he was
a very key figure at Merck for nearly twenty years, up to November last year. And he has
gone on record as saying, in five years’ time there are going to be in his view six huge
pharmaceutical companies. So I mean, you do actually want to move early rather than late.
Mm. And have you seen John...?
But we didn’t move; they moved to us.
Exactly, yes. I mean I think it would have been very different, although it might have been
equally wise, if it had been you that initiated it.
Yes.
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But I mean given that you didn’t, it’s extraordinary.
But we did not initiate it.
Yes. And have you seen him since? Presumably he then resigned, did he? What happened?
He went. I think he...he made the case for all the key colleagues in the second half of March,
he went on the 31st of March. Very quick.
And did you see him again?
I saw him at a dinner in April, at the De La Rue sort of annual dinner for ambassadors and
high commissioners, the diplomatic dinner that they have, where there are about 500 people
present, and I happened to actually see him and Anthony Tennant coming in to dinner
together. I haven’t seen them sort of having a drink before. So I went straight up to them and
I said, you know, ‘Very nice to see you both. John, get one thing absolutely clear, before this
century is out, you and I are going to be back on the golf course.’ He said, ‘I don’t think you
realise how strongly we all feel.’ I said, ‘John, I do realise how strongly you feel, and I’m
very sad you do feel so strongly, and that you don’t fully understand, you know, the position
we were in. But the fact is, leaving that aside, and one day we’ve got to leave that aside, you
and I are going to play golf again together.’ And then he did say, ‘OK, OK, but we’ll
probably need a pretty strong caddy to keep us apart.’ I said, ‘You won’t need a pretty strong
caddy to keep me apart from anyone,’ you know, and then we just...that was it.
And will you pick that up again?
Not this year, no.
But ultimately you will?
Next year, next spring I’ll give him a ring.
And you’ll send him a Christmas card?
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Certainly.
And, what’s he now gone on to do, what did he resign into, nothing?
Well he has, he’s...the awful thing is, I should know what it is. He’s chairman of, I think
some nuclear power set-up. He got a job very quickly.
And Tennant?
Well Tennant is so over-jobbed anyway, I mean he’s got a mass of things.
Right.
And of course, people say it’s terrible that X, Y and Z have now gone, and they were on the
board, and pushed out; in actual fact the compensation terms offered by Glaxo Wellcome
were the better of the two compensation packages that would have been offered by Glaxo or
Wellcome, and everyone was allowed to choose. And, I think some would say the
compensation was extremely generous for senior people.
Mm. And so what’s happened subsequently? How has your involvement altered because you
know have fewer interests in it? Who took over, what’s the relationship, how has it changed
your life?
Well, Sir Colin Corness, who was Chairman of Redland, became Chairman of Glaxo
Wellcome, sort of in the middle of all this really: well he actually became Chairman just
afterwards but he had...it had been announced that he was becoming Chairman. And he... At
the time they didn’t have a chairman in actual fact, so Colin Corness was Chairman
Designate when this was going on, and he became Chairman as I say shortly afterwards. But
Richard Sykes was running the sort of, the bid side of things. And, I think that, this is not
answering your question, but, the Bernard Taylor/Richard Sykes close friendship, where they
both trusted each other, possibly meant this all went through rather more smoothly than it
might have done. Goodness knows how choppy it might have been. But my involvement
with Glaxo Wellcome now is much less than it was between Wellcome and myself, and
indeed Glaxo Wellcome and the Trust. I mean, there’s more contact funnily enough on the
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scientific side now rather than the business side. I mean, various of our governors know
Richard Sykes well with other hats on, and our director, Bridget Ogilvy, knows him, and a
chap called Nydell[ph] who is their head of R&D knows some of our chaps, and you know
it’s...it’s rather more that sort of relationship.
Right. What kind of a man is Richard Sykes?
He’s tough, he’s decisive, he’s got enormous stamina. A very polished performer. You’re
really asking, what sort of human being is he? Well he’s a highly successful and impressive
businessman, and any, I think City analyst or commentator, or critic, would say that Richard
Sykes is an impressive financier, as well as being a very distinguished scientist. As a person,
I certainly like him. He’s friendly, he’s always got time for everyone, he’s...he’s a nice guy.
Would you ever see him socially?
Oh yes. Absolutely. Oh yes. But it’s a sort of...it’s a slight lull after the storm at the
moment.
Mm. And is it the first time in your professional life that you’ve been very conscious of
making enemies?
Yes. Never before.
And you seem to have dealt with it pretty calmly. Why are you such a calm person?
I don’t...I suppose... [pause] I don’t know. I am quite calm really. I get quite angry, but
don’t always show it. I mean there are times in this last situation, the first quarter of 1995,
when I really was very disillusioned about the way certain people one held in considerable
esteem behaved. But I’m told this always happens. So...
But you must be terribly good at setting things aside. You obviously don’t wake up in the
night going over it again.
No no. No.
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And is that something you’ve taught yourself, or just something you’ve never done?
[pause] I don’t know. I think it’s just... My father was totally calm under all sorts of
pressures. I think my brothers are too really.
But you have... I mean it’s very interesting. On the one hand you have a complete
commitment to your professional life, and yet you obviously on some level have a sort of
detachment from it.
Mm. I’m afraid I’m not intelligent enough to work out the divide or...the detail of that. No
I...I just take the view, and I’m sure it goes back actually, having had, you know, cancer and
been ill, when you think, well you probably aren’t actually going to be around necessarily for
that much longer, that you know, every day is worth living, and you appreciate every day
much more than you used to, or prior to that sort of situation. And, I think that, therefore you
just do your best, and if it’s not good enough, other people have failed before.
Right. And, before we move off it, because there’s other things I’d like to talk to you about, is
there anything else you want to say about this chapter?
I don’t think so. No. What it does mean is, the Trust now has current assets, a current
portfolio worth £7.7 billion, of which 6.3 are in a mixed portfolio and 1.4 in Glaxo
Wellcome. And, that’s about £2 billion more than any other charity in the world.
And if you decide you do want to diversify again, presumably it’s not going to be as dramatic
as last time?
No. Presumably not.
And you haven’t had to sign anything saying you won’t?
No no.
You’re free.
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I think Glaxo Wellcome are very pleased we have got 4.7 per cent of their shares, but I think
they’d be equally relaxed if we had six per cent or one per cent.
Which must be a relief.
Yes. Nice feeling.
[End of F5224 Side B]
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Tape 12 [F5225] Side A (part 23)
OK.
Alistair Frame, I mean to describe him as a lovely man would be an understatement.
He was a fantastic fellow. And he was really tough, but extremely congenial. And,
very sadly he became increasingly ill and, he was a very proud man, and he went on
being Chairman of Wellcome Foundation or Wellcome Plc, but clearly he had to go,
and he was, you know, when I talked to him about his illness, which I think was a bad
circulatory thing... Anyway, he got to the stage where...I mean he was the sort of
person, whoever you were, whether you were a messenger or anyone coming into the
room, he would always get to his feet and say, ‘How nice to see,’ or whatever. You
know, I mean he was...he was a very courteous, and, active man. And, anyway one
day I went to see him in March of the year that he retired, which I have a feeling must
have been...yes, ’93, he had just been Chairman of British Steel for about seven
months, and he should never have taken it on, but he was getting really quite ill, and
he couldn’t get out of the chair. I mean he didn’t actually even try. He said, ‘You can
jolly well come over here and shake my hand today,’ you know. I mean not...not sort
of, trying to acquire any sympathy at all, but, he just physically couldn’t get out of the
chair. He’d gone. Anyway, about, this was in March, and about three weeks after
that his wife rang up and said that, ‘You know Alistair’s not too good, and, you know,
you should know he isn’t too good,’ or whatever. And I said, ‘I do know that.’ And I
said that, you know, that, ‘He’s really going to have to step down as Chairman of
Wellcome, tragically, you know, tragic from our point of view, and terribly sad from
everyone’s point of view, but he’s going to have to...’ ‘I know, I know, it’s all...but
he doesn’t really know that.’ So anyway, about three weeks later I go round to
Alistair and I said, ‘Look, what are the quacks saying now?’ And he said, ‘They say
they don’t want to see me for another year. They really think, you know, I’m
handling this one pretty well, and although I’m not in absolute peak condition, things
are really much better than you would think,’ and all this sort of brave stuff. And I
said, ‘Alistair, look, I hate saying this, but I have to tell you, there are just a few
murmurings in one or two areas that perhaps you aren’t fit enough to go on being
active chairman of Wellcome, and I would hate that to grow into a, you know, a lot of
chat, and for you to go out on a, in a sort of damp squib. And I really do think with
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the year end on the 31st of March it would be good if you went on the 31st of March,
and, you know, and it was announced relatively soon.’ [background sound] I broke
that did I?
I think it’s all right.
You think it’s all right? And, he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘you know, it’s... I’m sure you
haven’t enjoyed saying this, and I actually haven’t enjoyed receiving it, but there we
are, let’s talk about something else.’ Well I left him at ten o’clock, and there was a
letter on my desk at twelve o’clock, delivered by hand, and it just said, ‘Dear Roger,
thank you for saying what you did this morning; I’ll be talking to my non-executive
directors before the weekend.’ Now that was a magnanimous performance. I mean it
let me off the hook. And, he retired on the 31st of August. I saw him at the AGM of
Wellcome, he was in the crowd, in the body of the hall, on, I would suppose
December the 14th, something like that, and he was walking like a very old man, you
know, little steps, and...
How old was he?
Alistair, I would think he was, sixty-three? And, then, I said to him, ‘Terrific to see
you, you know, pretty boring AGM, you know, without you in charge,’ or something
like that. ‘Oh no,’ he said, ‘I think it went very well,’ he said, ‘yes, that’s fine,
looking forward to Christmas.’ And he said, ‘You’ll be impressed to hear that I’m
taking it slightly more easily now, but actually I feel pretty good,’ and was thoroughly
cheerful. And he died on the 29th of December. John Robb rang me up and said that,
you know, slipped away in his sleep.
And are you still in touch with his family?
Sheila, his wife, yes, and we, we, you know, I mean in close touch would be a gross
exaggeration, but, you know, we, we speak from time to time.
Mm. And how much does it affect you, losing somebody and watching somebody
become a...?
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Well as you can see, one’s, you know, even now slightly emotional, but, he was such
a friend over a short period of years. And the day, I’ll never forget the day when,
having told him that, you know, we were fed up with the dividend being so low, and,
this was in November ’91, and he was very dividend-conscious, and shareholderconscious, put the dividend up from six-and-a-half pence to ten pence, up fifty-three
per cent, on the Thursday, and we go in, Peter Cazalet and I, on the following Monday
morning at 8.30 and see John Robb and him, and say, ‘You ought to know that we are
looking very closely at our shareholding.’ We didn’t say we were selling, we couldn’t
say we were selling. ‘Looking very closely at it, and, we’re going to give the deepest
consideration to it over the next few months.’ Well, what John Robb thought was
that, we would be, you know, reducing down to 50.1 per cent from 73.6 or whatever.
Alistair Frame didn’t say so, but he thought we might be selling out completely, but
we’d certainly be going right the way through the fifty per cent. And, so, come, oh,
February, whatever, when we told them that we were going to go to the court to get
permission to go below fifty per cent, John Robb was appalled, and really I think
stunned that we could give up control so readily, and Alistair Frame was in no way
surprised, and, he didn’t say so, but he obviously thought it was the right thing to do,
from our point of view.
Mm.
Inconvenient for them. And, as he wasn’t well then, he immediately said, ‘Right, the
share sale is going to be a great success, and it’s going to be led by John Robb,’ and
that’s that. And he was always there for meetings and things, but, crucial meetings,
but it was led by John Robb, and that was Alistair’s decision. Oh he was...he was
always giving other people the credit.
Do you know anything about the rest of his life? I mean it sounds as though he had a
very good perspective on his working life, and maybe...
I know very little about Alistair’s life, except... You know, he was a very regular
churchgoer. I mean going to his, his service down at his home in...I was going to say
Sussex...yes, it was quite clear from the reaction of the verger, the vicar, whoever, you
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know, that he was a very regular churchgoer and...and probably promoted rather more
by his wife Sheila I think than by him, but, he’s very much a part of the local
community, and much loved and admired in the local community. Because he was a
most decisive man, and with considerable charm. And, as Chairman of RTZ he was I
think an outstandingly successful chairman of RTZ. And of course one of his nonexecutive directorships was Glaxo, perversely. But we were looking around for –
sorry, I should rephrase this. The company were looking around for a new chairman,
but as we had nearly three-quarters of the shares, it was quite important that, you
know, we were on side. And, I mean he was really the only live candidate. It was
originally Sir Alfred Shepperd’s idea, but we were very keen on, both David Steel[ph]
and I were very keen on Alistair Frame. And, we went round to see him. I’d known
him for a long time. He knew my brother David well in Australia, because of C.R.A.
being the main subsidiary and being in Australia. Anyway he knew David very well,
and David always liked Alistair. And, I knew him a bit through, through David I
suppose. But, he...we went to see him, and expecting him to say, ‘Well actually, I
mean it’s a lovely thought but I’m much too busy and I can’t do that.’ He said, ‘Can I
think about it? I think my answer will probably be yes with enthusiasm, but I think in
fairness to you, I must think about it and work out what I can give up and whether
Glaxo will get in a stew if I left,’ and, et cetera et cetera. And... ‘Just give me fortyeight hours.’ Anyway he came back, you know, in exactly forty-eight hours to David
Steel[ph] and said that, you know, ‘We’re now in the middle of October; I could go
on the board of Wellcome in January, with a view to taking over as chairman on July
the 1st next year. If that’s what you want.’ And, so we said, ‘That is exactly what we
want.’ It was a great day, a great day.
And, he sounds in every sense a sort of very big man.
Yes, but not physically.
Mm. How was his working relationship with John Robb, how did they...what was
John Robb’s character?
I think that John...I mean John Robb, John Robb is a thoroughly decent, upright
human being, and despite our massive difference of opinion of earlier this year, and
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I’ve only seen him once since, and that was only for two minutes at a dinner, just
before dinner, I...I like John Robb very much, I really enjoy him. But he with Alistair
Frame, marvellous partnership; he without Alistair Frame had less confidence. And I
think he...I think the last year, well two years really, well last year at Wellcome
without Alistair Frame, he found quite a challenge. Anthony Tennant came in as the
high profile deputy chairman, and that was my own personal idea; in fact, some would
say that, you know, I wanted Anthony Tennant to be chairman and John Robb to
remain chief executive, but John Robb did both jobs on the understanding that
Anthony Tennant, who was extremely busy on other things, would be a hands-on high
profile deputy chairman, and chairman of the audit committee, the remuneration
committee and everything else. So the jobs were divided, but not divided possibly as
much as they should have been. So... And Anthony Tennant worked incredibly hard
on Wellcome affairs, and obviously...and as a strategist, a renowned strategist, he may
well have had something up his sleeve which he couldn’t talk to us about, you know,
his master plan for Wellcome for the longer term. But it took him eighteen months to
get to the, get, you know, within, however long it was, of it coming to fruition, and
Glaxo nipped in.
And who is Anthony Tennant? I don’t now who he is.
Anthony Tennant was senior, very senior, in the same house as me at school, but he is
four years older.
He’s Eton rather than Millfield?
At Eton, yes. Yes, he was more Eton material than Millfield. Good games player, big
chap, very fair. He’s a mixture actually, he can be extraordinarily amusing and
relaxed, or he can be quite uptight and things get a bit tense. He had a great success
with Guinness, he took over after the drama, and he was lucky in the timing, I’m sure
he was, but he did a terrific job there. And whether it’s worked out as well as
Chairman of Christie’s, I’ve no idea, but... He was a terrific asset to the Wellcome,
and we’re very grateful for what he did, and tried to do. But it all took too long,
and...I mean Glaxo could...they’d obviously been watching the thing like a lynx, and I
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would guess they’d been watching three companies, and I would guess that Wellcome
was top of their target list.
Mm. And Anthony Tennant doesn’t sound as though he’s a close friend of yours.
Anthony Tennant has never been a close friend of mine, that would be going far too
far, but I’ve always liked him, I’ve always respected him, right from the age of
fourteen. But there have been two things that have happened in the last year or so that
mean obviously, you know, the relationship won’t be the same again. One being
Wellcome, and the Glaxo bid, and he and John Robb think I personally let them down
very badly indeed, and the Trust behaved appallingly. I mean I think that’s what their
view is. What I would say is that they were heavily blinkered, and they knew
perfectly well the agreement we had made was an agreement in good faith, that we
were not looking for a buyer. We’d been staggeringly patient over the last eighteen
months. Glaxo come along and put in a bid which turns out to be worth £3.7 billion
for a shareholding in the marketplace worth £2.2 billion, and we thought the £2.2
billion was a bit wafer-thin and might even go down to one-and-a-half billion. So we
were talking in terms of two billion for our beneficiaries.
Before we get into that though, you said there was a second reason why.
The second reason, there was the most extraordinary performance, and this really is an
odd one, in that, I was asked to be Chairman of the Savoy Group, and, I accepted, and
this was...this was in April, April last year. And, I accepted to be Non-executive
Chairman of the Savoy Group. Unanimously with the board, they’d been looking for
a compromise choice chairman for a very long time, and poor Anthony Tuke,
Anthony Tuke was rising seventy-four or whatever, and he said he wasn’t going
beyond seventy, but they couldn’t make up their minds, and you know the drama over
the shareholding and all that sort of thing. Anyway, Rocco Forte had forty-two per
cent of the votes and sixty-eight per cent of the shareholding, but actually didn’t
technically have control. So, a sub-committee was set up with three people on it.
This was actually, you know, this was the thirty-year rule this one. A sub-committee
was set up with three people on it, Sir Oliver Wright, Sir Anthony Tuke, Sir Oliver
Wright being the sort of distinguished ambassador, but on the board of the Savoy, Sir
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Anthony Tuke, the Chairman, and Rocco Forte. And they had a list of twenty people
whatever it was, and narrowed it down, and the first person they approached was me,
and I said yes. The board seemed very pleased, and that was fine. That was in the
middle of April. I saw the main shareholder, or the chap who represents the main
shareholding, and I also saw Rocco Forte separately. Sorry, the main family
shareholding, a chap called Sinclair. And, you know, [inaudible] the family and all
that. And I also saw separately Rocco Forte. And they both confirmed that they were
totally happy, but I thought I ought to see them, the main shareholders, separately and
just get it one hundred per cent clear. And as I left both of them I said, ‘You really
are absolutely one hundred per cent certain I’m the right person? Because if you have
any wavering thoughts, it’s not going to work, so there we are.’ So they confirmed
that was fine. Anyway, I was to take over in March this year, and, because I said I
couldn’t take over earlier, because I’d have to do some fine tuning in the other things I
did. And, so it was to be announced in the summer. And... Anyway Rocco said he’d
like it postponed until the early autumn. And eventually... Because he thought it was
too early, indecently early as I wasn’t going to take over until March. Then in early
September Anthony Tuke said to him, ‘You know we really must announce about
Roger Gibbs.’ He said, ‘I don’t think we must at all.’ So Anthony Tuke said, ‘Why
do you say that?’ He said, ‘I’ve changed my mind, I don’t want him Chairman of the
Savoy Group.’
But can you do that?
Well you can. I mean you’re entitled to change your mind. So I said to Anthony
Tennant, who is Deputy Chairman of Forte, that I thought this was the most
extraordinary way to behave. He said, ‘I really don’t want to get involved in it, and I
really don’t want to talk about hotels ever again to you. And, I’m very sorry it’s
worked out the way it has, but you know, these things happen,’ and all that sort of
thing. So, fine. So, I can’t talk to Anthony Tennant about hotels ever again; I
certainly can’t talk to him about pharmaceutical companies every again. So, you
know, it narrows the field a bit.
But, so the implication is that he poisoned the thing against you?
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No, no, absolutely not. No. I think it was Anthony Tennant’s idea that I should be
Chairman of the Savoy Group.
So what do you think happened?
And I think that, that Rocco, whether he was got at by his father or what, I’ve no idea
at all. Actually I like Lord Forte, I think he’s a marvellous man. But, I don’t know.
No, I’m not saying that Anthony Tennant put the kibosh on that; I don’t think he did
at all. I think he thinks, or did think, I’d be very suitable, but in the end Rocco... I
think Rocco...I mean Rocco would say that there was an article in the Telegraph, a
profile on me, and that the Savoy was mentioned, and he didn’t like it, and I was
assuming I was going to be the chairman. In actually fact that article was discussed
with certain people on the board of the Savoy, and it was considered a good thing to
give it a, just a little bit of a tweak so that people did realise that it was all being sorted
out without formal announcement.
You mean it was discussed with them beforehand, or afterwards? It was discussed
with them beforehand?
Before the article, yes.
Gosh. So do you feel bitter about what happened?
Do you know, it’s a funny thing, I don’t feel bitter at all. I was very disappointed at
the time. I think it would have taken up more time than I readily would have been
able to make available, but one would have, you know, spent the necessary time on it.
I think that...I mean I’ve been round all those Savoy hotels and looked at them with a
totally different, from a totally different point of view, and, there’s an enormous
amount of work to be done on quite a number of them. It would have been wonderful
to keep the thing British, and to keep it in the form that it is, and I think that, I think
that Rocco thought that I would be a soft touch, and he would get control through me,
and I think when he talked around to various people, they said, ‘Well on the surface
he may be a soft touch, but underneath you’ll find he’s not.’
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And what is Rocco like?
Rocco, I mean he’s been very successful. [pause] What is he like? Inconsistent I
should say. Inconsistent.
It sounds as though he’s very impulsive, and that could be disastrous, even though he
happens to be very talented.
I think he probably...he probably is impulsive. He’s tremendously enthusiastic, and I
should think a lot of people who work for him would, you know, go over a cliff for
him, but not everyone. I think... I mean I wrote to him, he...he sat next to...well, he
sat quite close to one of my brothers at some dinner, and, this was just after it had
been announced that Ewan Fergusson was going to be Chairman of the Savoy Group,
and this particular brother of mine said, ‘Oh Rocco, you know...’ he didn’t really
know Rocco at all, he said, ‘do tell me, is there anything specific you’ve got against
my brother Roger?’ And, there was deathly silence, ‘Oh good heavens no.
Absolutely splendid chap. Just a very unfortunate set of circumstances, you know,
and I’m really sorry that it worked out the way it did, but you know, certainly wasn’t
his fault,’ and all that sort of thing, all that sort of stuff. Anyway Rocco then writes to
me and says that, you know, reports on this conversation, he said he’d like to make it
absolutely crystal clear that it was in no way my fault, and that he was extraordinarily
sorry how it happened, and if there was anything he could do for me, at any stage in
the future, I was only just to pick up the telephone, et cetera et cetera, you know, one
of those letters. So I wrote back and said that I was very fortunate as a child to go to
each of the main four hotels in the Savoy Group, you know, for tea or whatever, and,
you know, through the life one’s lived, one’s been to them a lot over the years, and
really become very fond of them, and very interested in them, so of course I was
disappointed that, you know, what...what had been planned didn’t come to... Well no,
I said of course I was disappointed not to become chairman of the Savoy Group, but I
wished it every possible success in the years ahead in whatever form it may be. And I
ended up, I just said, ‘I’m just a little sad that I’ll be watching it from rather further
away than we all agreed in April.’ I thought I’d just make the point. So I sent a copy
of that letter to Anthony Tennant, so he should know, you know, exactly what had
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been said. And he did say that when I next saw him he still didn’t want to talk about
hotels. (laughs) But you know, with a twinkle.
Oh right, so it’s fairly warm again?
No, I don’t...I don’t think it’s...I don’t think it’s warm at all. I think... Because that
came before the Glaxo Wellcome.
Oh I see.
That came before.
I see, right.
That came before the Glaxo Wellcome. Right.
Can I just, before we move off it, how much does it stay under your skin, something
like that?
Not at all.
Is it very undermining?
No.
So you can just close the door on it?
Oh good heavens yes. I mean there are so many other interesting things that go on,
and, if he doesn’t want me, it really doesn’t worry me one iota.
And, with the person who was appointed, can you see what they were trying to
achieve, that they couldn’t do with you, or not?
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Well it was very odd that they didn’t appoint him instead of me in the first place,
because he was on the board anyway. But, not a businessman, but perhaps that
doesn’t matter.
And can we go back now to John Robb. I mean I was interested that he and Alistair
had such different responses to what you might be meaning when you said you were
watching the share price.
Mm. Mm.
Is that a function of their two very different personalities? I mean...
Well I think John Robb is a tremendously cautious person. I mean he works things
out in his own mind, and pursues the course he decides, which is, is cautious, it’s a
sort of safety first approach. Alistair Frame works it out and spends much less time
working out what he wants to do, when he goes for it. I mean that, that was...that was
the difference between the two, the two characters.
What sort of age is John Robb?
John Robb I would think is jolly close to sixty now. He’s...I would think he’s fiftynine.
Oh right. And, up until the Glaxo business, you and John Robb had worked together
fairly harmoniously, or not?
Very. Very good relationship. I mean he...I mean he and I had an extraordinarily
good relationship. We used to meet once a month for an hour and a half, and I’d
always have a list of about twenty-seven things, which I think probably drove him
slightly dotty, but – no, dotty’s going far too...I think he...it always slightly surprised
him that I’d, you know, say that, ‘We will be giving you...’ sorry, ‘we are going to sell
you 7,000 copies of the biography, because you’ve indicated you wanted 7,000
copies, and we are going to charge you, whatever it is, £6 a copy, or £4, the ones that
you are going to use for commercial benefit, and we’re not going to charge you
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anything for those that you give to people in the company, because we feel this is
what Henry Wellcome would like, and I think it’s justified under the charity or
whatever, that sort of point. Trude Elion said she was going to come over, and she is
one of the Nobel prize winners from Wellcome in America, she is going to come over,
and, I’m actually quite in a muddle as to whether she is coming over in April or May.
I mean do you have any idea what her dates are? And, we’d like to do a dinner but we
don’t want to tread on your toes, sort of thing. Our golfing weekend in Scotland is
set, and, but you might let me know how many of the wives are actually going to play
golf, you know, because I want to book the times and get that organised. By the way,
Docklands Express is running in the 3.30 at Nottingham on Thursday, and...I can’t see
it being beaten.’ Then, you know, ‘The Trust is worried about the impact of the
Concorde trial announcement on Retrovir’s prospects, and, you know, you obviously
can’t say anything, but, all I can say, we are concerned, and we just wonder whether
the PR from the company is going to be rather better than it was last time.’ And
twenty-two other points.
[End of F5225 Side A]
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Tape 12 [F5225] Side B (part 24)
We’d have quite a few, we’d have quite a few laughs. Oh, I enjoyed those meetings.
And he did apparently?
I think he enjoyed them. I think he thought that I went into too much detail from time to
time, but he enjoyed them. We used to talk about, you know, visits to Research Triangle
Park, the research side of Burroughs Wellcome in America, and, which governors were
going, and whether Bridget Ogilvy was going as well, and, what we were going to do before
that, and after that, and... And we did particularly want to meet one scientist who we never
seemed to see, because, there was one aspect of brain research or something that one of our
governors was wanting to discuss with him, could he tactfully say to X that we would like to
see him and could he be fitted in to some lunch or whatever. I mean, it’s all little things, but,
an important dialogue.
But there was never any actual disagreement, or crossness or anything?
[pause] No, I don’t think there was. I don’t think there was.
So was he really just very naïve about this agreement?
Well I think he was trying to persuade himself that if we signed a document saying what we
had, despite the rider at the end, that we’d stick by it.
Mm.
And, of course he never believed, he never believed, and we never believed, that anyone
would come along and bid a price that we couldn’t turn down.
Mm. Are the shareholders mainly the institutions, or are they individuals?
I don’t know how, how it’s split, but, I would guess there are about 50,000 shareholders, or,
there were 50,000 I think when, immediately after we went public in ’86, and then it, you
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know, people take profits, and...it shook down to I would think about 20,000 shareholders.
And I would think that the vast majority of the stock was held by, I should think, it’s usually
the case that eighty per cent of the stock is held by thirty institutions, you know, it’s that sort
of thing, or eighty per cent of the available stock. But I don’t...I don’t know the figures on
that.
Mm. And would you ever, in these years, would you see John Robb socially at all?
Well I will...
No, in the time we’re talking about.
Did I ever see him socially? Oh we used to have dinner together.
With his family, or...?
His wife, Janet, I like enormously, and, she used to come on these golfing weekends. I
probably saw Janet for dinner with John only a couple of times over those five years, but I
was endlessly talking to her on the telephone, you know, because trying to track him down on
something or other. So we used to talk on the telephone a bit. And, then, you know, the
golfing weekends, which happen once a year.
And what was his background?
He is a Scot, educated in Scotland, Heriot’s or something like that. I honestly don’t know,
but... And, I don’t know what his father did, I mean I can’t remember what his father did.
But he anyway became a very key figure in Beecham’s, and, Sir Kenneth Keith bought in Mr
Bowman[ph] to be I think the senior chap in Beecham’s, senior executive, under him as
chairman. And I think, there were going to be two roles, anyway, one for Bowman[ph] and
one for the very trusted performer, John Robb. And he’d been there twenty-two years I think.
And, quite clearly there wasn’t room for both of them, and one of them had to go, and John
went on, I’m sure, extremely generous financial terms, but with a degree of bitterness. When
the Glaxo thing happened, I think there was a touch of, ‘I’ve now been let down for a second
time.’
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Mhm. So, he came with that. And can you just tell me a little bit about the golfing weekends?
What’s the point of them?
The point of the golfing weekends was very simple, that, when...it really started at, when I
arrived at the Trust, in, well became a trustee in ’83, Gordon Smith, who was the Deputy
Chairman, and, he’d been the Dean of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine
for twenty years or something, anyway, he... Almost twenty years. And he was a very poor
golfer, and Peter Williams the director of the Trust was a poor golfer. David Steel[ph] used
to be, who was the Chairman, lay Chairman, was a good golfer, but was now much older and
therefore, you know, beginning to come down to our level, and I was sort of, better than
Smith and Williams; they wouldn’t agree with that, but I was better than Smith and Williams,
but worse than Steel[ph]. So, the two laymen took on the two scientists. We used to play at
Swinley[ph]. And, we did this, oh, six years running or something. We must have had eight
matches I suppose, we probably played twice sometimes in a year. And we’d have dinner
afterwards at the Thatch Tavern, about, well it’s near Ascot, about a couple of miles from
Swinley[ph]. And it was a marvellous occasion, because we had a needle[ph] golf match, it
was always very close, and, there was a lot of banter, and then we’d settle down, because the
Trust was so small in those days, and we would just have two-and-a-half hours talking about
the Trust. And it was thoroughly constructive. When we went over to R.T.P. in North
Carolina, Research Triangle Park, to Burroughs Wellcome, which we did once a year, and
they did various presentations, the sort of other entertainment was to take us off to play golf
somewhere. So we had our golf match in the evening on one of those lovely courses there, or
came a day early and played the previous day. And golf came a sort of part of the Trust
company routine. And then, John Robb said, ‘Why don’t we get those American lot over,
when they come over for the autumn board meeting, and take three days off afterwards and
go and play at Troon or, or Muirfield or whatever?’ So that’s what we did. And the wives
used to come, and they were...they were lovely occasions.
And, was it to do with cementing people socially, or was it really to do with carrying on
talking about work but in a different setting?
We did talk about work on those occasions, but obviously not the whole time. But we
would...I mean, I would certainly have, say three hours with John Robb on his own during
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that, in that period, and I would talk to the Americans, you know, quietly on my own. It
was...it was partly social, but it was important from a business point of view.
Because people are more relaxed, because it’s less antagonistic, because what?
Well, it never was antagonistic, but it...it built a closer and closer relationship between the
Trust and the company, which has now of course, it’s all the sadder. Perhaps we should
never have done it, perhaps one should have been aloof and unfriendly throughout, and then
there wouldn’t be this terrible personal rift.
And...
But I think, I think before leaving that, those Americans, notably Phil Tracey[ph] who has run
Burroughs Wellcome in America so effectively, that saddens me more than most; I mean he
and his wife are the most delightful people, and, you know, Steve and Sandy Corman[ph], he
was the finance director, and you know, there were lots of them, and they were really nice,
thoroughly decent people, and, I think they all feel we’ve let them down.
And do you think it’s unmendable?
I don’t think it’s mendable for...I think it’s probably unmendable with... I don’t think
anything is unmendable, but, it’ll never be the same.
Mm. And are they people, the Americans, that you’re actually not likely to see to talk about it
now? I mean are the opportunities very small?
Well I’m certainly going to make a point of seeing Phil Tracey[ph] and Steve Corman[ph] at
some stage in the years ahead, I mean it may be several years but, I’ll certainly be making a
point of seeing them.
And so there are no more golfing weekends, or what?
There sure are not.
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Right. And will you do things like exchange Christmas cards?
Yes.
Mm. But it’s down to that sort of level really?
Well Americans aren’t frightfully good on Christmas cards, are they? It’s sort of Happy
Holiday as opposed to a Happy Christmas. And... I don’t know. I’ll certainly send them a
Christmas card.
And did, you when you were having these weekends in Scotland, do you ever discover
anything about somebody that very much surprised you, because you were seeing them sort
of so to speak in twenty-four hours rather than three hours?
[pause] Yes, I think that the focus of some people, without mentioning any names, because it
really doesn’t help, was a bit narrower than one imagined.
In what sense narrower?
Well it was very much on the pharmaceutical company, and not the broader picture of the
world, you know, it was... I think they...they all worked very hard at one particular thing,
and, at the expense of everything else, you know.
OK.
The wives were much broader minded.
Mm. How informed were the wives about Wellcome? I mean were they very involved?
I think quite well informed, yes, quite well informed.
Mm. And they were mainly women who didn’t have careers themselves?
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No, that’s...that’s right. I think they had pretty full lives themselves. I think that, I mean Phil
Tracey’s[ph] wife, Travis, very much a, a figure in the local community, you know, sort of,
charitable stuff, a very effective lady. And, and I mean Sandy Corman, what does she do? I
mean she’s a, I’m sure she’s also a pillar of the local community, and she’s a fitness fanatic,
and always jogging and playing games and things, I mean she’s a very fit lady. I think, I
think the sort of charitable work in the local community is probably the, the feature with most
of them.
And do you think the women might be of help in mending the rift?
I wonder. I wonder. I just hope that...I mean there is no rift with the American people,
there’s been very little contact, because... I mean there were some pretty dreadful things put
in the press about the Trust.
And that was fed by your colleagues, or it was fed by things made up by the press?
I would think...I cannot...I simply cannot believe that some of the quotes were, were accurate,
but they were quotes. I mean really, really sort of hurtful remarks. But...but, people do, you
know, one’s told by, you know, various advisers that this is the sort of thing that always
happens.
But it was nevertheless a shock?
Oh yes. And, I mean there are 65,000 people who work in Glaxo or Wellcome, and that over
the next three years will be reduced to 55,000. In my view, and I think in the view of
virtually every commentator, that was likely to happen anyway, at least to a large degree,
maybe down to 60,000 or 58,000, not 55. But, although I think Glaxo Wellcome, or Glaxo,
Richard Sykes, have been extremely fair in the way they’ve approached the whole thing, the
Wellcome people have come off worst. And it is sad that the research place at Beckenham
will be closed down over a period of three years, because Glaxo have this huge facility they
built at Stevenage, and it’s ridiculous to have both. Yet, Wellcome’s Dartford manufacturing
operation will go on; the distribution side which is largely done from Crew, that is a
Wellcome thing and that is going to be closed down, or sold. In America the main set-up is
at Research Triangle Park, and Glaxo is next door to Wellcome anyway, so, that will all sort
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of merge together. And quite a lot of Wellcome scientists have been laid off; two of them are
setting up new companies, and we’ve helped with the seed corn capital, a small amount of the
seed corn capital for one of them, by introducing them to Schroders in this country.
Greenville, which is the manufacturing side in America, that is I think going to be greatly
reduced in size, but there’s one particular aspect, whether it’s the manufacture of AZT,
Retrovir, I think it probably is something like that, probably will be kept there, but it’ll be a
much smaller operation. But, Greenville is a place where there are lots of new companies
coming in, and there’ll be a lot of work, you know, four people in Greenville. But it’s...it is
very sad, it’s the end of an era. But, if you are number twenty-three in the world, or whatever
Wellcome was, and there are going to be in five years’ time six very large entities in the
pharmaceutical world, you are too small, and you’ve either got to be an acquirer or be taken
over, and, I don’t think they were strong enough to make decent acquisitions.
Mm. Do you think some of the problem is that you came from the City world where you were
used to these kind of pressures and decisions and seeing the world running in that particular
way, whereas John Robb is...comes from a completely different culture really, and the fact is,
those different cultures are now much more directly affected by mergers and share prices et
cetera et cetera; you can’t any longer live in a kind of cocoon?
I think that... You use the word cocoon. There would be those who would say of John Robb
that he was a good communicator within the group, but not outside, and he didn’t know his
competitors, or did not know most of his competitors. And perhaps, if he had been a better
communicator outside, and he was aware of the Glaxo rumours and the Glaxo interest nine
months before the bid came, perhaps if he’d had a chap with Richard Sykes, Richard Sykes
would have gone away. Perhaps.
Really?
I’ve no idea. I’ve no idea at all. But I saw John Robb in May ’94, and, he did say, ‘Anything
else on your list?’ And, so I said, ‘No.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘well there’s...there’s a rumour isn’t
there, that Glaxo are sniffing around.’ So I said, ‘Yes, there’s the rumour.’ And actually
that’s all we said. But I mean we both knew there was a rumour, it was in the papers, I mean,
there’s nothing more to say, I mean it... It wouldn’t have entered my head that Glaxo would
have come along and bid what has been described as an incontrovertibly high price for it.
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So in retrospect, is he thinking that you knew more than you actually did at the time?
He...I think he and Anthony Tennant think I was scheming away behind the scenes, which is
palpably not true.
But you’ve never had the chance to be openly accused and therefore openly defend yourself
on it?
[pause] Well I suppose I have been openly accused haven’t I? I don’t really know. No I
haven’t been openly accused, no. No, it’s all been innuendo. But the truth of the matter is
that on December the 20th 1994 someone, and we’ll leave the name out of this, someone said
to me, ‘Richard Sykes would like to meet you some time. He’s never met you, and he thinks
that it would be a good plan if you met at some stage. What about lunch?’ So, I said, ‘Fine,
I’d love to meet Richard Sykes.’
Isn’t it odd you’d never met before?
Isn’t it extraordinary. But it is absolutely extraordinary. I mean I’d seen him at a cocktail
party over the other side of the room. But I’d never ever spoken to Richard Sykes. And, so,
the lunch was set up for the 10th of January, and we had a long talk about...
Sorry, before we get into the talk, which I would like to know about in detail, I mean, when
that was said to you, did you think it would just make sense for you two to know each other,
or did you think, this could be the beginning of something?
Well, my immediate reaction was that, there could be something in this. My second reaction
was that, if I made a list of the companies who’ve somehow or other got in touch with me
over the last – pharmaceutical companies – over the last seven or with years, and when one
has met, you know, they seem thoroughly enthusiastic, and absolutely nothing happened, I
thought, well, if they are thinking of making a bid, there’s no way they’re going to make a
bid we’ll accept, so that’s that. And that was...that was my reaction.
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And what would have happened if you would have said, ‘No, actually I don’t think it’s a good
idea for me to have lunch with Richard Sykes’?
Well it would have been totally irresponsible, as chairman of a charity, very, very much
involved in the pharmaceutical world, not to meet anyone of interest in that world.
And where was the lunch?
The lunch was in the West End, and...
Where?
I’m not telling you where it was.
Why?
No no. No, I’m not going into too much detail. But it was in the West End, and, there were
four people there, two people from Fleming’s, our advisers, and one...oh Richard Sykes and
me. There were four of us.
So it was very much not a casual lunch in that case.
Oh no no.
You wouldn’t normally go and take lawyers would you?
No no, it wasn’t a casual lunch, certainly not, no. And, I said...
How much research had you done before?
How much research?
Mm.
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None. I knew what I knew, and that was that. I did no research. I did not expect a bid from
Glaxo.
So why did you take lawyers with you?
I didn’t take lawyers.
Sorry, Fleming’s with you?
Fleming’s. Well, I thought it would be very important for Fleming’s to listen, to make
absolutely certain there was a witness that... I mean I trust Richard Sykes obviously, I mean
he’s a very high-powered chap, but, I didn’t want to have a situation where anyone could say
that, ‘Well I understood from that lunch that such-and-such.’ I just wanted the whole thing to
be above board. At that lunch I said, early on in the piece, that, ‘Please get this absolutely
straight. We had a hundred per cent of Wellcome in 1986; we’re now down to 39.6 per cent.
We feel totally comfortable with our existing shareholding. We have considerable
confidence in John Robb, Anthony Tennant and the whole set-up. And we wish to stay
where we are at the moment.’ And I went through various other things. And, everything
went...and he said, ‘I mean I couldn’t understand more, that’s fine, this is just a sort of overall
chat.’ And, we then talked about the size of pharmaceutical companies, and he talked about
Glaxo’s plans for the future, and... I mean it was, an hour and a half I suppose, not an hour
and twenty minutes like yesterday, an hour and a half. And, anyway, then right at the end,
you know, the question of fiduciary duties. So, I said, ‘Yes, but, we have made it abundantly
clear that we are not talking to anyone for five years, and we’re only two-and-a-half years
into that five years.’ And... But he said, ‘Yes, but you do have your fiduciary duties,’ as of
course we have our fiduciary duties. And that was that. The afternoon...
Sorry, what did you actually feel at the end of that lunch?
I felt slightly uneasy that... Well I thought what was going to happen is that he would make
an approach, and that nothing would come of it, and it would be inconvenient, do you know.
But nothing would come of it because the price would be too low, and because you would
stick to your agreement?
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The price would be right out of court, and out... I mean what I thought would happen is... I
thought it was possible, I didn’t think it was likely, I think that’s putting it too strongly. I
think it was possible that they would make an approach, at some stage. I did not – this was
on a Monday – I did not expect him or his advisers to get in touch with our advisers on the
Wednesday afternoon; that I did not expect.
You were just, before I interrupted you were about to say, ‘that afternoon’.
No, it was on the Wednesday afternoon.
Right. But were you going to say something else that happened that day?
Nothing else happened that day.
Right.
Nothing else happened that day. And then we parted, firm handshake, ‘most interesting
lunch,’ you know, ‘no doubt we’ll be meeting here one day,’ sort of end of the conversation.
On the Wednesday afternoon, I don’t know, at about four o’clock, Fleming’s rang me and
said that Lazards had been in touch, and they wanted to have a preliminary canter[??]. So I
said, ‘Look, I’m not getting involved in this at all, but, if they want to have a preliminary
canter[??], and you want to have a preliminary canter with them on our behalf, that’s your
affair, but you know the ground rules?’ And they said, ‘Of course we do, we know the
ground rules.’
Who were the people involved at Fleming’s, and who were the people involved at Lazards?
Bernard Taylor and Laurence Banks[ph] were the two people at Fleming’s, and Bernard
Taylor had come from Barings, and Barings and Morgan Stanley were the two advisers to the
company. So that’s another sort of twist in it all. Bernard Taylor I think had known Richard
Sykes very well for ten years, sort of thing, and, therefore Richard Sykes I think felt able to
have a cosy conversation, or propose a cosy conversation, and that’s how that thing started.
But it was the Wednesday afternoon, and... So, nothing really happened, I mean chat went on
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but nothing happened. And, the difficult thing about all this was that, I’d been given a brief
by my colleagues that, you know, I’d keep my ear to the ground and do whatever I thought
was appropriate, because you know, the share sale had gone well, although that was my
pigeon probably, and going public had gone well, but that was really David Steel[ph], not me,
but I was David Steel’s[ph] clerk. So I mean, the colleagues had a degree of confidence that,
you know, one wouldn’t take anything too far.
[End of F5225 Side B]
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Tape 13 [F5226] Side A (part 25)
And, one other very obvious subject I’d like to talk to you about is, since I last saw you,
you’ve been knighted.
Yes. (laughs) Well there’s not much to say about that. Some people, you know, get
recognised when they probably shouldn’t, and a mass of people don’t get recognised, and
they should.
When did it happen?
When did it happen? I think it was Christmas, well, or just short of the New Year, ’93/4. I
mean, one of the New Year’s honours of January ’94.
Was it out of the blue, or not?
It was a complete and total surprise. As you know, you get a letter in the middle of
November, and, saying that the Prime Minister’s...from the Prime Minister’s Private
Secretary, saying the Prime Minister is minded to recommend to Her Majesty the Queen that
she might consider the possibility, or whatever. And, if that was the case, would you accept?
And if it happened, how would you like to be known? A list, a list of questions. And at the
end it says, ‘It is imperative that you do not mention the contents of this letter to anyone.’
And the next thing you’ll hear is an announce...you know, in the announcement on, which is
embargoed until midnight on December the 30th, but the press will be informed at noon of
that day, and you can respond to the press if they get in touch with you, if you wish, but you
don’t have to. I mean it was one of those sort of letters. So you never actually know until,
you know, someone might have changed their mind at the last minute.
What did you feel?
I, my immediate thought was, my parents will be pleased. That was my immediate thought.
And...and another thought, I think this is lightly overdoing it, you know, I mean there was
that feeling as well.
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Did you actually tell nobody?
I told nobody at all, until the morning of the midnight. And we were out in the Isle of Arran,
about twenty members of the family, and, I told them, I told my sister at about nine o’clock in
the morning, and my two brothers at, well about ten o’clock. We were sort of having a rough
day shooting. And, and then told the others after dinner at, or my brother, who I was staying
with, told the others at dinner, after dinner, about eleven o’clock that night.
And how did they all react?
Well they, they were very friendly and pleased.
And what do you feel about it, what does it mean to you?
Do you know, I really...it’s an odd thing. I had a lot of letters from people that I hadn’t heard
from for years, and obviously people one saw frequently, and, goodness, they were nice
letters to have. But, I was slightly sort of overawed by it really, it’s...I mean do you know,
it’s...it’s something that couldn’t conceivably happen to me, and, you know... But one’s
pleased, one has to admit one’s pleased.
And do you actually like being addressed as Sir Roger?
No I don’t, absolutely, I find the whole thing acutely embarrassing. (laughs)
Did you get any reaction from colleagues at Gerrard & National?
Yes, a few positive comments there. But, no, I mean people were...they’re very friendly
about these sort of things aren’t they. But we had, we had a lovely morning at Buckingham
Palace, I enjoyed that very much.
What happened?
Well, you all get put into different rooms, whether you’ve got a, whether you become a, I
don’t know, get a CH, an OM or knighthood or a CBE or whatever, you’re put into different
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areas, and you are briefed as to what’s going to happen. And, I went into the green drawingroom, there were about twelve of us there. And, you know, sort of being pretty dodgy in the
left knee was quite useful, practice what you actually do, and when you turn round, when you
bow, when you don’t, and all that sort of stuff. And, it was...it was nice, because we were
early on, and, you queue up in the sort of corridor, come to a point, and you wait, and when
the next chap, he’s sort of gone another ten yards and he’s waiting for the chap who’s
actually being knighted, and when his name is mentioned, he goes forward, but you go
forward into his position, and then when he backs away and your name is mentioned, you go
forward and then you go in. And you know, you bow and then you kneel down and you get
knighted. The Queen in actual fact had had a, a riding accident and damaged her wrist, so
she did the sort of, the knighting bit, but putting the thing round you, somebody else put it
round because she couldn’t do it with her wrist. But, and she, you know, says a few words,
and you say a few, and...and that’s that. And she said to me, you know, ‘We’re all
particularly delighted about this,’ which she I’m sure says to most people, if not everyone.
And, she said, ‘How much does the Wellcome Trust give away to medical research each
year?’ So I said, ‘It’s about £220 million this year.’ And she said, ‘Well it looks as if you
should go on doing this job. Nice to see you.’ Something like that. And then you go round,
and you go round the back, and the 400 supporters. 130 people get done for one thing or
another, and then you have three guests for each person, so there are about 400 people there.
And who were yours?
And so then you go round and join them come in at the back. And, it was very nice.
Who were your guests?
My guests were, my sister, my only sister; and then the...there were two nieces, Emily, who is
my brother Stephen’s daughter in the Isle of Arran, and Arabella, who is my brother David’s
daughter from Australia, who happened to be over here at the time. So it was nice that, that
each family from, my immediate family was represented and they were all girls, and, we had
a very good time. And we were collected by my brother Stephen and his son William in my
old car, and, we had photographs taken in all positions as you can imagine, and... Oh it was
very nice. And then I went and had...we all went back and had lunch with my brother
Christopher at the Albany where he’s got a nice flat, and, it was a nice day.
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Mm, lovely. And, the other subjects I wanted to talk to you about if I may, since we met there
have been some very drastic changes in the City, one of them being the fall of Barings.
Mm.
And I wondered, I mean do you remember how you received the news of that and what your
response was?
Well I was actually here on the Sunday night, and, watching television, and it was flashed
across the screen. And as the thing developed throughout the evening, and I went to bed
about midnight, I mean it looked as if nobody was going to save Barings. If you had asked
me, which you did, two years ago, what were the...you may not have asked me this specific
question, but, if you had two years ago, what are the undoubted merchant banks in the City?
Barings would certainly have been high on the list. It’s...yes, I mean one greeted it with
incredulity and extreme sadness, because the Baring family have been very good friends with
the Gibbses going back a long way; Anthony Gibbs, our merchant bank, which was founded
in 1808, was next door to Barings in Bishopsgate from 1808 until 1979 when they were
bought by the Hongkong Bank. And, I mean, I was in the same house at school as Peter
Baring and Nicholas Baring, John Baring, now John Ashburton, was our main adviser
throughout my time as Chairman of Gerrard & National. Terrific friends. And very high
principled, thoroughly decent, good people, always thinking of others, and never of
themselves. And, how could this happen to them? And the answer is, as, I think it was Sam
Brittan who said, or someone like Sam Brittan, said that the problem is that Barings the bank
is 150 yards away from Barings the securities company, and their cultures are 150 years
apart, and I think that really sums it up. Neither understood the other. And, it could have
happened to anyone. I mean I think that was a tremendous sadness. I think the Warburg
thing was just about as surprising, that Warburgs, the great name in the City, the one
institution that could take on the rest of the world, or one British institution, and that should
happen to them. Kleinworts is much more predictable and logical, and Morgan Grenfell of
course has been a great success with Deutsche.
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But, so with the fall of Warburgs, I mean, when I was doing the end of the last lot of
interviews, an American said to me that Warburgs was the one and only chance Britain had,
and that was how I was planning to end the book.
Mm.
And now we haven’t got Warburgs. Where does that leave Britain? I mean is it as serious as
I’ve been led to believe?
Well, I think it...it is very serious when Swiss Bank Corporation own Warburgs, Dresdner,
Kleinworts, Deutsche, Morgan Grenfell, there are others aren’t there. Well it leaves us
without, well with very little strength in, in British merchant banks.
And what does that mean for the future of the country?
Well I don’t think it means anything bad for the future of the country; it’s just sad that the
main entities in the City of London aren’t, or some of the main entities, are no longer British
owned. But it does mean, I suppose it re-emphasises with these institutions coming in from
abroad, and these very important institutions coming in from abroad, to be based in London,
that they believe that London will continue to be the financial centre of Europe, and one of
the three most important financial centres in the world. I mean I think it confirms that. But it
makes the merchant bank, British merchant bank fraternity look a bit thin.
And what about what’s happened recently with people withdrawing from the Stock Exchange,
three firms, lastly being Salomon, over their European transactions, what does that signify?
That I don’t know. I really don’t know. I mean I can’t give you an answer to that. I mean
it’s obviously poor news, but I don’t know how, how bad that news is, I mean I really don’t
know the, the pros and cons.
So, compared to when we last did a recording, you feel pretty similar about the future of the
Square Mile, do you?
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I would be more positive about the future of the Square Mile. And, very very interesting
actually, one final thing that I would say is that, when diversifying our investments, as you
probably saw, we bought what is known as the Kensington Estate off Smiths Charity. John
Smith, 350 years ago, left £2,000 to trustees, and they spent that £2,000 buying eight-four
acres of London, which was all round Kensington, and there’s now fifty-four acres left, and
we paid them £283 million for that, that estate. And one of the reasons was that, we are
convinced, well I am certainly convinced, that London will remain a cultural centre of the
world, and also a financial centre of the world. And we actually, the deal we did with Smiths
Charity was in September last year, although it wasn’t announced until the end of July this
year because there was so much work to be done on it. But, prices of houses and flats in
Kensington over the last nine months have gone up something like eight to ten per cent,
which is exactly in the opposite direction to the national trend, and one of the reasons is that,
[inaudible] executives, Dresdner executives, Deutsche Bank executives, Swiss Bank
Corporation executives, you know, have got to be in London, and some of them want to be in
Kensington, and it’s, it’s a popular area.
It’s very interesting, because the commitment of you, of the Wellcome Trust, could be actually
psychologically one of the things that swings the balance, couldn’t it. I mean it could be
pretty important. It could be...
Well I think, I think that it’s...it’s...it’s a show of confidence in London isn’t it, if someone
like ourselves operate...
London more than Britain?
I think London more than Britain.
Right. And, just a couple of other things. When the whole problem over the Glaxo thing was
happening, was there any Government opinion?
No.
None at all?
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No, there was the select committee, and Julian Jack, my deputy chairman, had to appear in
front of that and be quizzed on whether this was good for science in Britain and, et cetera et
cetera.
Right. And just briefly, how do you feel about what’s happened to the National Health
Service in the last few years?
That’s a very very big topic, and it would be better for you to talk to one of my colleagues
about that. But, I think enormous strides have been made in cutting out waste, and making
things more effective. But I think it’s jolly sad that, when you’re taking something like St.
Thomas’ and Guy’s, of course they have to merge, but you know, Guy’s has been around for
250 years, and is a wonderful institution, and, I think that’s...I think that’s sad.
So you don’t think Mrs Bottomley’s done a terrible job?
No I don’t. I think she had an impossible task. And, I think she’s...she’s done pretty well
actually.
And how do you view the prospect of a potential Tony Blair Government?
Well, I actually think this country is pretty well run, and I think when this country is
compared, its performance over the last two years, to countries in Europe and elsewhere, I
think we come out of it pretty well. I agree that John Major’s not a charismatic leader, but I
think if he is surrounded by people who are loyal to him over the next eighteen months, I
think it will be a very close General Election. I think that Tony Blair, as was seen in the
debate with Jack Straw and him against Michael Howard, and I’m not an admirer of Michael
Howard, they were both totally destroyed on that prison thing, and how they allowed
themselves to be annihilated, one will never know. But I actually think Tony Blair is more
wafer thin than most people realise, and I think he will be exposed over the next eighteen
months to being an enthusiastic young talented chap, but with no particular mission, and I
think that people when they come to vote next time may well vote John Major back in again.
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Mm. But one of the things Charlie McVeigh was saying yesterday was that if Blair does get
in, and makes huge...makes life very difficult for foreigners here, tax-wise, that that again
could precipitate people leave the Square Mile and everything. Do you think [inaudible]?
Well I think that’s right, I think that’s right. And the whole thing should focus, I would
guess, if I was running...I mean if I was the Prime Minister, which is very very unlikely at
any stage, but if I was, I would focus entirely on jobs, and I think that you can put over a
scenario to the people that, OK, things may not be great here, but you compare us to any
other country, we’ve done pretty well in the last two years, and your job is much more likely
to be safe under us than under Labour, and under Labour it’ll be put at risk. There are people,
whether it’s Japanese electronics companies or whatever, who have been pouring into this
country over the last few years, because they think it is properly run, those people will
probably stay for a while, but no new ones will come in if Labour are elected. I thought I’d
be much more enthusiastic about Labour, but I’m not at the moment.
Mm. Is there anything else you would like to say at the moment before we end this session?
I don’t think so. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the three sessions we’ve had, and I would imagine
we’ve covered an enormous amount of ground; most of it probably won’t be terribly
interesting, but some of it might be very interesting.
Thank you.
[End of F5226 Side A]
[end of session]
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Tape 14 [F9681] Side A (part 26)
Actually it gets quite croaky late on, as it gets tired.
So does mine, so we’ll whisper to each other.
Yes.
[break in recording]
Actually, I did.....
[break in recording]
Just to do the sound check...
Yes.
Could you please tell me your name and today’s date and where we are?
My name is Roger Geoffrey Gibbs. We are at the moment hopefully at the British Library.
And the date, I would guess is the 19th, but it’s probably the 20th.
The 19th of what?
19th of April, 2001.
And has the changing millennium meant anything to you?
It hasn’t actually, no. It’s made no difference to me whatever. I was always thinking that
there would be such a lot of hype in the stock markets up to the end of the last millennium,
and that, you know, if one wanted to do a deal, you should get out, you know, in October,
November, may even be in December, 1999. But of course it went on for a little bit longer
than that.
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[break in recording]
.....for a moment, following that line of thinking, do you remember how you celebrated last
New Year’s Eve and the one before that?
Well, last New Year’s Eve I was in the Isle of Arran with my brother Stephen and sister-inlaw Lavinia, and the previous one I was in the isle of Arran with them again. And that time it
was really to escape, and have a marvellous family see-in of the new millennium, as opposed
to, you know, watching the Thames on fire live.
And how did you actually mark midnight, or didn’t you?
Well what we did was, my nephew Matthew Fleming, who was in the Army for some time,
he was in charge of the fireworks, and we had twelve very large fireworks, which were buried
in the garden. And he and my, and his father, my brother-in-law, Val Fleming, let them off,
actually with Stephen and Lavinia’s eldest son Jamie, the three of them let them off. And
they were absolutely spectacular. They went up to three or four hundred feet. And it was all
over in about, well I suppose, two and a half minutes. And then we went back and watched
the telly again.
Right. And, I was going to ask you about the Fleming connection, because you’ve mentioned
your sister was married to a Fleming.
Yes.
Can we talk a little about what’s happened to Fleming’s Bank since we last met?
You can, yes. Absolutely.
Could you for the sake of the tape, because we haven’t been doing regular follow-ups, could
you just say how the position’s changed for Fleming’s?
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Well, shall I just start by saying my first connection with the Fleming family, although my
father knew Richard Fleming extremely well, and Richard was the banker, and the banker
brother of Peter the very good author, Ian, the not-so-good author but very successful,
renowned author, and Michael, who died six months after Dunkirk, of his wounds at Dunkirk.
So that there were four brothers. So, my father knew Richard very well. But I didn’t really
know the Flemings until I met Val at school, at Eton, when we were both I suppose fourteen,
and he became a close friend then, and a much closer friend afterwards, and we shared a flat
together from 1956 until 1963, when he eventually married my sister; took him seven years to
get round to it. So, I obviously knew Val very well. And really through my father, I had ten
years in Jessel Toynbee as you know, one of the small discount houses, but then decided to
leave, and in 1965 I spent five months at Fleming’s, between Jessel Toynbee and de Zoete’s,
and they tried to teach me how to become a stockbroker. And interestingly enough, when I
left Fleming’s there were only sixty-one people in the firm, and when they were taken over
by Chase Manhattan, which, it was announced in March 2000, there were more than 7,500
people in the group. So, it had progressed.
And has Val been involved in the bank?
Yes. I mean Val, Val was in Fleming’s all his working life. I mean, he is sixty-five now,
he’ll be sixty-six in August, when I’m sixty-seven in October, but he’s been there all his
working life. And when Fleming’s was sold, they decided that to look after the family’s
money and various friends’ money, they would form Fleming Family and Partners, and to my
absolutely amazement, despite being the age of sixty-five at the time, they asked me to
become chairman of it.
So what does that entail?
What does that entail? Well you would have thought, if you were having a sort, a family
office that had a corporate finance side, but a very small...it’s really corporate advisory as
opposed to corporate finance, and, it obviously has the fund management side, but all the
funds are managed outside Fleming’s. We choose outside managers on our Wellcome Trust,
which not a lot of people have done, and we choose who we think are the best managers.
There’s that side of it. Of course, before Fleming’s was sold the Fleming-Wyfold Trust, that
is a family charity, bought all the paintings, the Scottish collection of 950 Scottish paintings
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off Fleming’s, and that went into a family trust. And to my delight they also bought twelve
extremely good clocks. So they’ve been kept in the right sort of hands. So, and also there’s
the, the Ian Fleming connections, business connections, which are under a company called
Glidrose, and that may eventually I suppose have James Bond Online, and 007.com, or
whatever, but it’s those sort of interests. And there’s the trust services, and looking after, you
know, acting as trustee for a lot of small, young Flemings and friends of the Fleming family.
So there’s a trustee services side. And it’s, you know, it’s a rather well-developed family
office. And we’ve got very nice offices which you must come and see at 37 Dover Street,
which go all the way through to, to Berkeley Street, and that’s called Ely House, and it was
built for the Bishop of Ely, because he had to attend Court, in 1772, he had to have
somewhere to stay in London. And it is an exceptionally nice building, and you will be
amazed to hear that when we decided to do the whole thing up from top to toe that my
younger brother was successful in the tender, and it’s all been done up in the sort of style of
that time, way back, by Greenock de Westonhose Gibbs[ph]. (laughs) So, the Flemings have
been doubly loyal to the Gibbs family.
I had no idea that this development had taken place. Because you must have been working
with John Craven.
Well...well, in actual fact there were three people who were friendly advisers to the family
over the past three years, and I was fortunate enough to be one of those friendly advisers. It
wasn’t so much advice as to bouncing thoughts off us, and, without getting into the sort of
public or professional domain. And, it was an extraordinarily interesting exercise.
Can you tell me about it?
Well, there’s not I think a great deal to say about it, except for the fact that there are 130
Flemings, and they all had a certain amount of money, and it was...and it was all basically in
one share, which was Robert Fleming and Company. And having shares in Fleming’s was a
wonderful thing, but, it was a basically unquoted stock. It was quoted, or you could deal in it,
it was valued on a basket of rivals, and therefore there was always a price that you could deal
at, provided there was a, if you were a seller there was a buyer on the other side, and they
could always find buyers, because they were, it was valued a little bit lower than it might
have been. And I suppose when it was taken over by Chase Manhattan, which is now JP
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Morgan Chase, in March 2000, I suppose the shares were really £8 or £9, and they paid the
equivalent of £27.44p, which was a pretty good price at the time, but interestingly enough the
NASDAQ, you know, the American exchange, the NASDAQ was at £5,100, which was an
all-time peak, four days before they actually did the deal, and it fell to £1600 or whatever.
It’s now just over £2,000 again. But, it was a marvellous bit of timing. And terribly sad in
many ways. 127 years, you know, started by old Robert Fleming. And a very successful
period they’ve been through in the last few years, but they’d had, it had been a bit bumpy as
well, profits had, you know, fluctuated quite violently. And they were really just too small
for the long term, therefore with 130 individuals having most of their assets in an unquoted
stock, I think it was generally felt prudent that it would be a very sensible thing to diversify
those portfolios, and they were going to have to sell at some stage, and they’d better pick the
best moment. And looking back now, this was the best moment of the last 127 years. So,
they’ve been fortunate or they’ve been clever with their timing. But it does mean that all
those small Flemings, when they grow up they will be able to buy their own houses, and that
may not have happened if they’d have stayed as, you know, as one investment bank, or an
independent investment bank. And when you look at what has happened to investment banks
since, well March last year, they’ve deteriorated in value quite substantially.
Was there a sort of wake when it was decided that the bank had to go?
Well there wasn’t a sort of official wake at all, no. I think it was a tremendously difficult
decision for Robin Fleming to take, and it was he who took the decision, because he’s head of
the family, and was previously chairman of the bank. It was a very very big decision, and
I’m sure he agonised for some years over when to take this, or if to take it, and he felt it was
the right time, and, he consulted key members of the family, but obviously not all the
members, because some of them are extremely immature. (laughs)
What’s the relationship between he and Val?
Well, it’s, Robin is a generation older than Val, and, I think I’m right in saying that
Robin’s...yes, his father was Phil Fleming, and then the next generation below Phil Fleming
were Richard, Ian, Peter and Michael, and Robin would have been a first cousin of theirs, as
opposed to being the first cousin of Val’s. So, Robin’s a generation older, although he is
sixty-eight and Val’s sixty-five.
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And what is Robin like?
Robin Fleming is the most understated successful person I’ve ever come across in my life.
He has a very strong humble streak. He’s very shrewd. I would say he was an enormously
sensible person, he’s in no way flamboyant, and I think that he is the sort of person who
would infinitely prefer to travel by bus or tube than take a taxi. And he is the sort of person
who, it may sound a little ridiculous, but if he knew that his favourite suits were cheaper at
the end of the month as opposed to the beginning of the month, he’d buy them at the end of
the month. I mean he’s a very frugal, frugal individual with a most delightful wife, Vicky,
and three equally nice children, and you wouldn’t think they’d got a penny between them.
And I think that’s, the fact that he is enormously generous, and a pretty heavy funder of good
causes that are of particular interest to him, and that’s not noticed by the world at large, I
think shows what sort of person he is. He’s a marvellous person.
And Val, what is Val like?
Val I would say for choice is even more understated than Robin, but there’s not a lot in it.
Val is a very able, extraordinarily good analyst in the investment world, and he has, you
know, been inclined to keep his light under a bushel, and he’s been very much a, a
marvellous family man and not looking for praise from anyone in any field, but very
thoughtful. A wonderful husband to my sister and a marvellous father to those four boys. I
obviously know him very well as I say, having shared a flat with him for seven years before
he married my sister, and I’ve seen a great deal of him over the years since. Never happier,
both Robin and Val, never happier than, you know, climbing mountains in Scotland, and,
probably being on their own.
Completely on their own?
Well when we shared a flat together, there were five of us actually, in 45 Pont Street. Jeremy
Gibbs, who was a first cousin of mine, who was brought up in Zimbabwe, and, he was only
there for a short time, about a year, and he was replaced by someone called Robin DenisonPender, but the other three were Val Fleming, Peter Hill-Wood, and myself. And, I can’t
even remember what I was meant to be saying; what was the actual question?
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You were saying that you thought he was, he by preference would be alone.
Oh yes. When we went off to work in the morning, and we all worked in the City, and we’d
all go off at the same time, in those days very late, sort of half-past eight, something like that,
aiming to get the office by quarter past nine, and the rest of us would walk together, chatting,
Val would always walk thirty or forty yards in front. He’s a real loner. He was extremely, I
mean, it sounds rather arrogant, but I think he was extremely fond of all of us, and got on
extremely well with us, but he liked to be on his own if possible.
And, given that you’ve known him for that length of time, and there’s obviously this deep
steady family connection, is he like a brother, or is your feeling about your brothers and
sisters separate?
He’s like...he’s...he is like a brother actually, and a particularly close brother too. He’s...he’s
incredibly tolerant of having married into the Gibbs family; well you could argue, my sister
married into the Fleming family, which is obviously true, but, looking at it from Val’s point
of view, he did marry into the Gibbs family, and of course, his wife had five brothers, which
is a bit testing for any chap. (laughs) I think he, he... But he’s very much his own man. I
mean he will... He knows what he wants to do, in any situation, and he will go out of his way
to cooperate over family things to the enth degree, but there is a limit, and there was one
particular moment three or four years ago when having supper in their kitchen at Stonewall
Park, which sounds frightfully smart, in actual fact it’s rather a ramshackle old house, but
it’s...it’s a wonderful place in Kent. But, having supper together on Sunday night, there were
just the three of us, and Elizabeth at one point said, ‘You know, Val, you really must do this,’
and I chipped in a few seconds later and said, ‘You actually have to do this,’ and he thumped
the table, which is the first time he’s ever thumped anything, anyway he thumped the kitchen
table, and said, ‘I don’t have to do anything that you say; I mustn’t necessarily do anything
that you recommend. I will do what I want to do, and that’s that.’ And, then we go on
laughing about something else, or discussing something else. But he was...he will put his
foot down, and quite rightly, because he finds us, you know, as a mass, a bit too much
sometimes.
Slightly confusing. You said Elizabeth.
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Yes.
Is that Lavinia as well?
No no. No, sorry. Of my brothers, David is married to an Australian called Fleur; Stephen is
married to Lavinia Bacon, who happens to be a relation anyway, she is a first cousin once
removed of Stephen, so that was all a bit interesting. Then there’s Julian, who is unmarried;
me unmarried; and of the twins, Christopher’s the eldest, and he’s unmarried; and Elizabeth,
his twin, is married to Val Fleming.
So who’s Lavinia?
Lavinia was Lavinia Bacon, and her grandmother was my father’s sister, she was called
Winifred Ponsonby. And, Lavinia married Stephen in 1973, when, I don’t know what age
she was, but she’s quite a bit younger. I should think she was sort of, I suppose she was
thirty-one, I think something like that, and Stephen was forty-three, and a close relation, so
that was, you know, interesting.
And they have children, don’t they?
David has four children. He has Emma, Hugo, Justin and Arabella, and Arabella has actually
has just married an Englishman called Charlie Tremlett[ph]. Stephen has Emile, Jamie and
William. And Elizabeth has, obviously Fleming children, Matthew, Harry, Rupert and Tom,
Matthew being a very good cricketer, and he, he played eleven internationals, one-day
internationals for England, and he’s been captain of Kent recently, he’s played for Kent for a
long time, he’s a very successful cricketer, by international standards he’s pretty successful.
And, the others do various different things. I mean Harry designs his own postcards, and
markets them pretty successfully, but they’re meant to be very amusing, in fact they are very
amusing to the younger generation, but some of us don’t seem to spot the jokes. And then
there’s Rupert, who was a very successful investment banker with Fleming’s, and he has
decided to go to Leopold Joseph, a very small firm, good firm, and, because he really wants
to make a difference, and build that business up. And Tom was in Fleming’s, a surprisingly
good dealer, and, currency dealer, and he is thinking about his future, and he’s been thinking
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about that for about, I should think nine months now, so... He’s been playing a lot of golf;
he’s quite a good athlete. But anyway, that’s the Fleming boys.
And would there have been another little younger lot about to go into the bank, had it stayed
in the family?
Well, there were, in actual fact I think there were twelve Flemings only out of the 7,500, and,
I would think there weren’t actually any Flemings about to go in, no. I think there was a bit
of a gap, a bit of a gap.
And is there a strong family feeling among them all, not just the ones in the bank but among
the Flemings in general, or...?
Oh I think so, yes. Yes.
And presumably, when Val married your sister, your parents were still alive were they?
Very much so, yes. Yes.
And was that a good relationship between him and your parents?
Yes, I think he, he had found my father, who was an extraordinarily successful banker-cumbusinessman, and one of the more affable people ever created, he found my father very easy
to get on with. And he got on very well with my mother, but my mother was very up-front,
and fairly formidable; I mean wonderful value, a fantastic mother and wife to my father, but,
she’s quite strong, and I think Val kept his head down quite often.
And did you know his parents quite well, or not?
Yes. Well I didn’t know his father, because he was killed at Dunkirk, and I, I mean I was
only six or seven at the time. I didn’t know his father. But I knew his mother very well,
because sharing a flat with Val, I used to go and stay with his mother and stepfather at his
family home near Knebworth in, or near Stevenage, in Hertfordshire.
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And what was she like?
She still is like.
Oh right.
I should think... She was Tish Borthwick before becoming Fleming, and then, after the war
she married, she married someone called Jamie Thomson, who was a director – oh it’s
Thomson without a p, which we keep, you know, we always got that one right in the end, in
the end we got it right – he was a director of MacKinlay’s whisky, which was taken over by
Scottish and Newcastle, and he was a very correct and quite a, quite...you know, you didn’t
fall out of line, staying with the Thomsons. It didn’t matter with her, Tish, she was pretty
easy, but the colonel was quite strict, and, there was no question of us playing tennis when
matins was happening in Sunday 500 yards away in case, you know, the plop plop of the ball
might put the vicar off his sermon. But you know, he was a very nice man, and he’s now
ninety, and, he was actually, there were the four Fleming children, Michael and Tish had four
children, Val, Dave who was killed in an accident, 1974 I think, Chris, and Jilly who married
someone called Nigel Newbury[ph]. But, they were...no, they were a good group. I was
going to make some other point, I don’t...
Was she a Borthwick as in Borthwick’s meat?
That’s right, she was. And she was Algie Borthwick’s sister, Algie being a rather eccentric
chairman of Borthwick’s.
Fascinating.
Yes.
And, you, when you’re speaking about the Flemings, they’re always ‘the boys’; are there any
girl Flemings, to do with the banking world?
Well, there are actually girl Flemings that... Well first of all, Robin has a daughter, Joanna,
and two sons, Philip and Rory. Chris has two daughters, Lucy Elizabeth is the first one, and
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Nicola Judy is the second one, but...I just happen to know their names. Then, Dave, who was
killed, was married to someone called Jocelyn McLeod[ph] who was a sort of childhood
friend and sweetheart of Dave’s, and he had three children, three daughters, who were
affectionately known as the bitch pack, which is not very polite but they were always known
as that, and they’re extremely good-looking, Lara, Annabel and Catriona[???], and, she’s
always known as Bumble. And Lara was in Fleming’s, is now married, and Annabel, I don’t
know what...she was I would think in dress design, I actually don’t know. Although she’s my
goddaughter, I should know. She’s sweet. And then, the last one, Bumble, started her
own...she was in Fleming’s and she was a good dealer, and particularly good-looking and
attractive to the chaps. She’s still unmarried, she must be, must be rising thirty now. But
she’s left, she left Fleming’s, I should think four years ago, and started a thing called the Nail
Bar in London, I think they’ve got four different Nail Bars now, and she’s done very well.
What do you mean, Nail Bars?
Well, they were in America I think, nail bars, and you go along to have your nails and your, I
mean your nails and your fingers and toes dealt with, and, I’m sure it’s all...they sell all sorts
of make-ups and whatever.
And did she do that because it was a sensible commercial thing...
Yes.
...or because it interested her?
A gap in the market. She said... I said, ‘You must be mad to leave Fleming’s and set up nail
bars with your friend,’ whoever the friend is. And... Some other girlfriend. And, ‘Oh,’ she
said, ‘no no, there’s a gap in the market there, there’s a gap in the market.’ And amusingly,
when I was Chairman of the Wellcome Trust and [inaudible] all the mistakes, she first of all
tried to take a lease on one of our Wellcome properties opposite Christie’s, South
Kensington; that didn’t work out for various reasons, through no fault of her own. But then
she took one in Marylebone High Street [inaudible] instead, so that was nice.
And is it working well, I mean has it been a success?
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Working pretty well, yes. I mean I, I honestly don’t know the figures, but it’s...it’s I think
quite a buoyant market.
And you don’t sound as though you’ve been to have the nail experience.
No; I’m told that I would get a free nail experience, but, I still haven’t taken that up.
[End of F9681 Side A]
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Tape 14 [F9681] Side B (part 27)
I know I’m going to lose it if I don’t ask it now. The person who you mentioned sharing the
Pont Street time with you, who isn’t Val...
Well there was Peter Hill-Wood and Robin Denison-Pender.
Peter. What did he go on to do?
Well, Peter Hill-Wood was in DA Bevan Simpson[ph], one of the stockbroking firms, and
then he went into Hambros, and he must have been in Hambros for well over thirty years, and
he also in effect twenty years ago became Chairman of the Arsenal Football Club, which was
his family firm, founded by his grandfather, Sir Basil. Not...no, not Sir Basil, no that was one
of his uncles. I’ll come to that in a minute. Anyway I’ll come to that in a minute. Anyway,
he was...he’s still Chairman of the Arsenal, but he’s given up Hambros. And, you know, he
was successful, and so he’s been on various boards. And then, Robin Denison-Pender... You
see Val Fleming married my sister; Robin Denison-Pender married Val’s half-sister, Clare
Thomson[ph]. And so, I was hot favourite to marry Rachel Hill-Wood, Peter’s younger sister
(the elder sister was married already), but that didn’t quite happen. But... So, that was a little
bit incestuous. But Robin Denison-Pender very sadly died, well, last week, early last week,
and his funeral was the day before yesterday, but, he was the most marvellous fellow. He
was dyslexic, a brilliant young athlete, and one of the most exceptional, few game players at
Eton there’s ever been. Very quick over ten yards, and a wonderful dribbler of the ball. And,
he was one who someone described in a letter to his wife, that he left nothing but laughter
and happiness in his wake wherever he went, and throughout his life. I mean he was, he was
great value. So, he used to, as I say he was pretty eccentric, but he used to keep us on our
toes, and we had a very happy time at 45 Pont street.
What was his main success in life?
Well, he was, I mean, not an academic, not very bright at school. Brighter than me
statistically, but he was still not very bright. But, he got a light sprinkling of O levels, and
went into de Zoete’s actually to start with, then to Glyn Mills. And he shared a room with
Anthony, I think...well it was one of the Butterwicks. Oh no, it was John Butterwick, with
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John Butterwick, Dick Lloyd, and Jeremy Morse, and the four of them shared a room for a
year. And they became extremely close friends. And Robin would be the first to admit that
he was not the brightest of the four, but he always used to say, ‘You know, at least, you
know, a little of me brushed off on those three, and this is really why they’ve gone to such
heights.’ But then after that, he went to a firm called George Henderson, stockbroking, and
then to Vivian Grey, and he was entirely responsible for Gerrard & National, which I was
Chairman of, buying Vivian Grey on election night in 1987, when Mrs Thatcher sailed in
again. And, we paid £300,000 for Vivian Grey, which was 100 years old, but it was going
through a very bad patch, lousy back office and things like that, and we thought we might
have to put in two or three millions to get the thing right, but it was a good name and we
wanted to develop a private client business. And, anyway, I think we stopped it from going
bust, it was almost certain to go bust, and we had to put in seven or eight million. But, it
became extremely successful, and the reason that Gerrard & National was bought by Old
Mutual for £570 million or whatever it was two years ago is because, the valuation they put
on what was originally Vivian Grey, which was about £300 million.
I remember being very confused by Vivian Grey all the way through the Gerrard & National
recordings I did; I never quite understood what it was.
Vivian Grey was a private client stockbroker who had one or two institutional, well they had
a few institutional clients. But they were simply a private client stockbroker that had been
established for 100 years, and they were very respectable, but very small. And we saw it at
Garrard’s as a pretty good platform on which to build. And interestingly enough, I
recommended to my colleagues at – dreadful word, colleagues, but the people I worked with
at Gerrard’s, about eighteen months before we actually bought Vivian Grey, that we should
buy Vivian Grey. And they thought this was not a good idea. And when the whole thing had
cooled, actually Tommy Fellowes I think it was, said, ‘You know, we really have got to buy
Vivian Grey.’ And I said, ‘Well why now as opposed to eighteen months ago?’ And he
would wring my neck for quoting him as saying this, but he said, ‘Because I was wrong then
and I’m right now.’ (laughs) Anyway, it turned out to be a terrific success after a pretty
sluggish start.
And I think partly why I was confused with it, it always seemed a very unlikely name. Why
was it called Vivian Grey?
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Do you know, the awful thing is, I don’t, I just don’t know.
Where were they before they joined Gerrard’s?
Well they were in the City, and I can’t remember where their offices were, but I would guess
down the far end of Bishopsgate.
And who were the key names associated with that company, before Gerrard?
Well... Oh dear, there were... I mean Robin Denison-Pender was the key character, although
not the most telling stockbroker of them all. There was a fellow a little further back called,
oh Jimmy someone, I’ll remember in a minute what his name was. This is the trouble with
old age, you know, if you’re sixty-six, you wouldn’t know this, but you do forget things. But
anyway he was also President of the Cresta, that was my link there. And, I don’t think there
were...there were many sort of leading figures; they were just a good, sensible team, but with
no one outstanding. Therefore it was no, it was no great problem us taking them over, and
putting our [inaudible].
I’d like obviously to talk about Gerrard in some detail in a minute. Just before we move
away from Fleming’s, what did it actually mean, Fleming’s going, what was its significance?
What, do you mean to the City? I think it was a great sadness for the old school in the City. I
suppose the sort of modern generation didn’t really mind too much, because, I mean the City
is changing so fast. But I think when Schroders and Fleming’s went in a period of, just a
matter of months, I think that was a, a real blow to what had been built up over, you know,
centuries really, well certainly two centuries. And I mean it’s understandable the Brown
Shipleys, the Anthony Gibbses, the William Brandts going, because they were in comparison
small fry, but Schroders and Fleming’s were important institutions internationally, but
funnily enough, both of them to small. I mean it’s extraordinary to think that Schroders, OK,
they didn’t sell their investment management side, but they were considered to be overall too
small, yet they had over £100 billion worth under management, you know, it’s... I suppose
Fleming’s had about £60 billion under management, but they were too small. But where
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Fleming’s were in such a good position is, they had the best franchise in the Far East of all I
think in the investment world, I mean Jardine Fleming was quite an institution.
What’s the relationship between Jardine Fleming and Fleming’s bank?
Well they went...Robert Fleming’s and Jardine Matheson went fifty-fifty and set up Jardine
Fleming.
When?
I would guess it was in 1966, I’d be pretty sure that was right.
And which Flemings were particularly involved with that?
Well it was under the chairmanship of Richard Fleming, and the person who started it all
really was Peter Jimison[ph], who was in Fleming’s, and became very senior in Fleming’s up
to his retirement, probably two and a half years, three years ago.
And who was involved from the Jardine side?
Well, those Keswicks you see. I honestly don’t know who was before Henry Keswick. I
mean Henry Keswick became quite powerful very young, but he couldn’t have done as, in
1965? I wouldn’t think so. I mean he would only have been about twenty, so... And, I think
David Newbigin[ph] came after Henry Keswick, and I honestly don’t know who it was, but,
quite soon Henry and Simon Keswick later on became pretty important, well obviously in
Jardine Matheson, but also an influence on Jardine Fleming. And the other, other Keswick
brother, Chips, was eased out of Glyn Mills, because they said he’d never make a banker, and
he became Chairman of Hambros and went on the Court of the Bank of England, so he
proved them wrong.
Now Chips came into your last recording almost incidentally, because you were staying with
him when you got the call that you had to come back immediately to do with Glaxo Wellcome.
Yes.
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And, I wondered how long you had known him and how close a friend he is, Chips.
Chips was at the same house as me at Eton, and I first met him when I took a side down to
play football against, or the field game, against that house. That’s the first time I met Chips.
But knowing Peter Hill-Wood so well, I mean Chips being in Hambros, I...and also my greatgrandfather was one of the four who founded the Royal National Pension Fund for Nurses,
and that was the equivalent, Hambro, Rothschild and Morgan and Gibbs of that time. So, I
went on that in 1973, the Royal National Pension Fund for Nurses, still on it. And so I was
round at Hambros a lot. I mean I got to know Chips, and Chips, very keen on the Arsenal,
and used to come down with Peter to watch evening matches, mid-week matches was his
speciality. And we used to in those days when you never knew what the, what the size of the
crowd was going to be, it could be 18,000 or it could be 53,000, it just depended on the
weather and whether the match was important, we used to always... We started spread
betting really I suppose on the, on the size of the crowd at Highbury. (laughs)
I’m so un-betty. What does spread betting mean?
Ah, well spread betting, IG Index and Sporting Index, which I was a director of for about a
year. Spread betting is, say, in those days you arrived at Highbury and you had no idea what
the size of the crowd would be, I would quote Chips 35,500 or 37,000. He could either buy
at 37 or sell at 35½. Say he sold at 35½, at a pound a 1,000, it turned out to be 33½, he
would make £2.
And who tended to win?
Well I don’t know. That’s an interesting question. He got taken for a major ride when he
offered me 7 to 2, 3½ to 1, against someone called Leon Brady[ph] scoring a goal, and we got
to the eighty-ninth minute and there was a penalty, and Leon Brady[ph] took the penalty. So
from then on, he cut the price of any name[???] player scoring from 7 to 2, to 3 to 1, and in
brackets, ‘excluding penalties’. (laughs) And it still rankles. And that must have been
twenty-five years ago. I don’t think there was a lot in it.
What’s he like as a person?
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Chips? He’s thoughtful, decisive, up-front, fun, and he has been in many ways very
successful. I mean Hambros faltering and being taken over by Credit Lyonnais, that, that
wasn’t Chips’ fault; it was, I think it goes further back than that. But he’s a wonderful person
to work for, he treated everyone, whether it was his fellow directors or one of the junior
messengers, exactly the same. He’s one of those. And, the amount of people in
Dumfriesshire of relatively humble status shall we say who have been introduced into
institutions in the City of London, whether it be a building company, a merchant bank or
insurance company, I mean I’ve met some of them, and most of them have flourished, and
it’s because Chips gave them a chance.
And what’s his family situation, has he had a stable life?
Yes. He’s been married for, I suppose must have been married for thirty-five years, and, one
of the Dalhousies, Sarah, who is delightful, who had a terrible car crash when she was about
twenty-eight, something like that. But, she’s a splendid person. And, three boys. And, you
know, they worked in the Far East, or whatever. No they’re a good lot.
So in other words, there are an awful lot of people you knew through, either school days or
early working life, who have been absolutely constant right up to the present day?
I would think there are twenty-five incredibly solid male friends who have been all the way
through from my school days to now, and actually Robin Denison-Pender is the first one to
have died. So, that’s terribly sad, but as I say, he was a most exceptional human being. I
mean he was unique. Well we’re all unique, but he really was. And, so it’s a sort of sad
time. But, one has to say, I think one’s been jolly lucky that we’ve all survived for so long.
What killed him?
Emphysema, which I would think was partly hereditary and partly the dreaded smoking. But,
when he died, we were on holiday actually, a girlfriend of mine called Jane Lee[ph], Peter
and Sally Hill-Wood, Rob and Clare[ph] Denison-Pender, we were on holiday in Barbados. I
was actually only there for five days. And he, most extraordinary fellow, he lived near
Edenbridge, and, he walked across the Edenbridge high street, this was the day before they
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were going to the West Indies, and he, according to a passer-by, suddenly as he was crossing
the road, in the middle of the road, he did a figure of eight, and slumped into a bollard, a sort
of cement thing, on the far side of the road, and really cut himself very badly, and a false
tooth here was sort of hanging out there. And by an absolute miracle his wife was driving
down the high street at that moment, and he said to her, ‘Don’t take me to a hospital, because
they won’t let us go to the West Indies tomorrow.’ He was determined to go. Went to the
dentist, got patched up, and off he went to the West Indies. And he had ten fantastic days
there, a little bit of light swimming in the sea. He even went twice round the dance floor on
the last night. And then, at four o’clock in the morning, completely collapsed and never
regained consciousness. So it was a wonderful way to go. But the person in charge of the
intensive care unit, an extremely good hospital, Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Bridgetown, said
that it is amazing that he survived the last year at all, because he could have gone at any
minute. He was in the last stages of acute emphysema.
And do you think he knew that it was going to be that close?
He knew. He knew that he was going to go at any time, and he was... I mean I said to him
on the telephone in January, ‘I gather you’re going shooting on Saturday. You realise the
forecast? It’s going to be freezing all day, and there’s going to be a wind.’ And he said,
‘Yes, but I’ll be there.’ So I said, ‘Well you mustn’t, you’re mad, you know, you must stay
tucked up at home in the warmth.’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘I’ll be there. Because you never know
how many more chances you’re going to have.’
So you must have had a very traumatic last few weeks. It must have been horrible for you.
Yes. Sad. And I’m giving the address at his memorial service on June the 11th at St Paul’s,
Knightsbridge. And, one could talk, as you probably gather, I can talk a bit, but I could talk
about him for several hours. So that’s going to be a difficult one to, you know, reduce.
So were...I mean when you say there are probably twenty-five close friends who have been
around almost since childhood...
Yes.
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...they presumably mostly know one another too.
They do, yes.
So were they all there at his funeral?
Well, his funeral was restricted to 250 people, so there were only I think, I would say there
were thirty very close friends, fifteen and their male friends and their wives, and the rest were
people in the little village of Markbeech, and 250 people were asked, and 250 people turned
up. But his memorial service, I just daren’t think how many people will come. Because he
was, you know, everyone’s amusing friend. And from the very young to the very old. And
he was not frightfully good at remembering people’s names; I mean in fact he was incredibly
bad at it. Whenever it was a man, they were all, always, you know, ‘Maestro, it’s wonderful
to see you,’ you know, ‘you seem in such good form.’ He thought ‘maestro’ was a very good
word for covering up. (laughing)
It’s rather a good hint, don’t you think?
(laughing) Anyway, enough of dear Robin.
Going back into Fleming’s for a bit. You said you, I think the implication was that, there
were three advisers over the change of ownership and everything, and you were one, John
Craven was another, and who would the third one be?
Yes. Well, I mean, this doesn’t get printed for thirty years is it?
It’s up to you how...
Yes. Well, the others were Ned Dawnay[ph] who was a trusted friend of the Flemings, and
Peter Jimison[ph] who had retired, and knew Fleming’s backwards.
Were you...
And I’m sure there were many others, but, we were three who were, you know...
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And were you all talking to one another, or were you talking to the Flemings separately?
No, really talking to the family. Not really to one another, no.
Because I would have thought...I mean I don’t know the others, but I know you and John a
little...
Yes.
...and I wouldn’t have thought you would necessarily follow the same lines of thinking.
You say you, you know me, and who else?
John Craven.
John Craven. Yes, I mean John Craven was, was officially appointed to the, to advise the
family, as he has been to advise Cazenove’s as a private individual. I mean it’s quite, quite a
compliment to, as a private individual, to have advised professionally Fleming’s and
Cazenove’s. John Craven, why do you think he’s so unlike me? You probably think he’s
very intelligent, which undoubtedly he is.
I wasn’t thinking along that route.
(laughs) I am.
I was thinking that, he’s more of a maverick.
Well you see, you say that; you may think that I’m sort of, an ordinary run-of-the-mill
investor.
No, I don’t think that. You are clearly not that. But he is somebody... I suppose I remember
him talking about Phoenix Securities, and sharing the phone with his builder who was
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ordering five-by-one, and John was on the phone to... He’s more chaotic I suppose in a way,
or...
I think John’s very professional. I think he’s, he’s much more imaginative financially than I
would be. I mean he’s, he’s much better endowed technically regarding investment and
financial matters and corporate finance. I mean he’s a top-class corporate finance man. But,
although I say it myself, I get on very well with John Craven, I like him a lot, and I respect
him enormously. And he will listen to me, although I’m an amateur compared to him. And
he takes note occasionally I think. No, he’s, I think we’re probably quite good foils for each
other.
How would you describe him?
How would I describe him? Very ambitious. Totally dedicated to what ever he is doing.
And he is particularly good, once he’s started something, seeing it through to its logical
conclusion. And he’s a damn good friend. I should think that’s how I would describe him.
I suppose he, maybe because he grew up in South Africa, compared to the kind of people
we’ve been talking about, who probably shared schools and whose families maybe knew each
other for generations...
Yes.
...he’s come from a very different place, hasn’t he.
Yes. You know rather more about all these people than I do I think.
Would he be, within the sort of people we’ve been talking about who were close friends and
inter-marriage and everything, would John be regarded by them as an insider?
I’m not sure he would be considered an insider, amongst the twenty-five people I’m referring
to, but, they would all know him. I mean they would all know of him in some depth. And
some of them would obviously know him, and I think they’d, they’d all respect him. But
you’re quite right, some would say, ‘Ah yes, but old Craven, he’s, he is a bit of a maverick. I
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wonder where he’ll end up.’ Well he ended up on the main board of the Deutsche Bank, and
running, you know, Deutsche Morgan Grenfell. But, no, he’s not an insider in that lot, no.
And it may be because he was born in South Africa, or brought up in South Africa.
Mm.
[End of F9681 Side B]
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Tape 15 [F9682] Side A (part 28)
....Roddie Fleming.
Yes. Roddie Fleming, who is, unlike quite a lot of other Flemings, he’s tremendously upfront, enormously confident, extremely optimistic about anything that he believes is going to
do well. And, he’s an extremely refreshing individual, and I enjoy working with him
enormously. He loves that old mobile, and at one particular time, I suppose about eighteen
months ago, we had things to talk about in the investment banking world, and, I was on the
top of a hill in Ithaca and, staying with Michael and Caroline Todd-Hunt[???]. Anyway, if
you walked a couple of hundred of yards up the top of the hill just behind their house, I could
usually get Roddie on my mobile, and I’m not really sort of into mobiles like some people
are, but anyway, I had my mobile, and I dialled Roddie’s number, and he answered and he
said, ‘It’s not a particularly convenient moment, just hang on for thirty seconds, because
we’re sort of moving up to the eighth floor in a lift in some hotel in Moscow.’ And that was
just, just his form. He loves that sort of situation. (laughs)
How does he fit in with the other family members we’ve talked about?
He’s Richard’s son, Richard, Richard and Charm, and, she’s still alive; Richard must have
died twenty-five years ago, that sort of thing. R.E. Fleming. He is one of eight children, and
Adam, his brother, was expected to be chairman of Fleming’s, in fact it was just assumed he
would be chairman of Fleming’s, and he became deputy chairman I suppose ten years ago,
and, four years ago he decided... What he did, I suppose it was seven or eight years ago,
maybe ten, went to South Africa, and built up the South African side of Fleming’s. But he
was expected to come back and be chairman of Fleming’s. He came back, but then took the
view that, he had the gold bug, and he is Chairman of Harmony Gold, and has been a very
successful chairman of Harmony Gold. And he, Adam, is a very exceptional person; I mean,
Roddie is one thing, and I’m a great admirer and he’s tremendous value in so many ways, but
Adam is sort of, the ultimate really. He’s...he’s slightly less up-front than Roddie, and,
Roddie would be pretty irritated me saying this, but he would actually agree with it, that he is
possibly less mercurial than Roddie. But at Wellcome, at the Wellcome Trust, we had a plan
where we had a list of six people who knew us extremely well, in case we were run over by a
bus, and these six people, and I always put down two people who knew me best, who were of
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influence. I mean one was Eddie George, and he would know exactly what sort of person I
was, and the sort of people I knew. I think, I can’t remember who the others were, except, of
the younger generation, who might succeed me as chairman at the Wellcome Trust, Adam
Fleming was permanently there, until he decided to, you know, opt out of the City of London.
But, no, Adam’s a terrific person. Then there was, there are other brothers, James,
and...anyway, I can’t remember the names of them all, but, they’re all Richard Fleming’s
children.
Actually, this seems a rather weird question, but it’s occurring to me out of what you’ve just
said, combined with somebody here whose father’s in a coma at the moment. But does
anyone have power of attorney if something happens to you, given you’re not married?
Who’s your closest person in that sense?
My two... Nobody has a power of attorney, but my two executors are Elizabeth Fleming and
Christopher Gibbs, the twins, those are my executors.
Mm. I just... Go on.
And I know exactly, I think, what Christopher will do about his will (I’m his executor as
well), and, I imagine I’m one of Elizabeth’s executors but I don’t know.
[break in recording]
You were just off the record, and to do with something else, talking about the relationship
between Fleming’s and Chase Manhattan now. Could you just explain it on tape?
Well, what happened was that, Chase Manhattan bid for Fleming’s in March 2000, and it
wasn’t until the middle of August 2000 that the deal was completed. And, the companies in
the UK were going to be called Chase Fleming, and in the middle of September they decided,
Chase decided, that they would merge with JP Morgan. So, it was Chase Fleming on,
whatever it was, the 15th of August, and the 15th of September it was JP Morgan Chase. So
the Fleming family name did not last very long. Although there are subsidiaries called Chase
Fleming still, but, it was quite a change.
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But the new Flemings entity is a shareholder is it?
No, the new Fleming entity is, in actual fact, a third of it is owned by the family, pro rata to
the shareholdings that they had in Robert Fleming Holdings, and two-thirds is held by the
workers in Fleming Family and Partners.
So sorry, I presume this can be on record, you were saying, somebody has shares in Chase?
What I was saying, well I hadn’t said this, but, what happened was that, half the proceeds
from the sale came in Chase stock, which is now JP Morgan Chase, ordinary common stock,
and half in loan notes with a coupon attached to it. So, that is really half in cash, because the
loan notes can be sold, albeit at about a ten per cent discount, or they can be held for more
than four years, which means they become very tax-efficient. So, half was in cash, namely
Chase loan notes, and half in Chase [inaudible].
And was everybody involved in agreement about what should happen, all the family members
who were in the bank? Nobody was resisting, saying, we must hold onto the Fleming’s entity
and, et cetera et cetera?
No. I mean, Robin Fleming is, you know, as I said, a very firm character, and very much has
his own views on things, but he is the sort of person who would carry the entire family with
him, because they would know he had given it a lot of thought, and he has an abundance of
common sense.
And which family members are involved in the new entity?
The new entity, the main board is Lord Renwick, who, Robin Renwick, he was...he was the
British Ambassador in the United States, apart from anything else, and I never know whether
he was the High Commissioner in South Africa or whatever, but he has very strong South
African connections. He’s the deputy chairman and I’m the chairman. The executive
member of the Fleming family is Roddie, who played such a large part in, you know,
discussing with Robin what should happen to Fleming’s, and whether it should be sold or not.
And he was obviously in favour of it being sold, purely because there were so many family
shareholders with one stock that was unmarketable. So, there’s Robin Renwick and me, and
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the other non-Fleming members of the board are Mark Garber, who is a Russian, who worked
in Fleming’s, and we have an office in Moscow with six people in it, and John Craven. And
the Fleming family members are Roddie, who is as I say wholly executive; Philip, who will
be but is living abroad at the moment, but he’ll come back in sort of two years’ time, and
he’ll be executive; Val, who is non-executive; and Robin, who I’m delighted to say comes
into the office probably for two days a week, sometimes more, but in August/September,
sometimes less. But, we see quite a bit of Robin, and he takes a great interest, and he... I
mean I was appointed chairman, as Roddie says, because, I was meant to be a civilised break
man, but he hopes that the wire is about to be cut and he’ll be let free to do exactly what he
wants. (laughs) But, he won’t. No, I’m meant to be a steadying influence on them all,
enthusiastic Fleming members, but, I think Robin is a stabilising influence on me as well. So,
it works very well.
Did you see it coming that you would be invited to be chairman?
Did I say what?
Did you predict it, did you see it coming?
No, I actually, it never crossed my mind that they would ask me to be chairman. I thought
they might ask me to be a director, because they had indicated that if there were no conflicts
of interest that they might be interested in me, being a director of Fleming’s quite a long way
back, but there were conflicts, because the Wellcome Trust employed Fleming’s, I mean,
there just wasn’t a possibility. But anyway, I thought a the age of sixty-five, you know, burnt
out at the end of one’s career at the Wellcome Trust, that it was the sort of, the quiet pastures
of, maybe on the board of the odd venture capital situation or whatever, but, not to be
chairman of the new Fleming company, no, that did not cross my mind. And I think it was a
very bold decision on their part.
And who approached you?
Robin Fleming said that he thought that I was the right person to do it, and he would be
grateful if I would.
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And...
So I said, ‘You can’t be serious.’ He said, ‘Look, I have just said, I think you’re the right
person, and we think you’re the right person, so that’s that.’
And where were you when you had that conversation?
The awful thing is, I can’t remember. I think I was probably having, I would think I was
having a drink with him in London, at his home, [inaudible] Terrace.
And, you said that the sort of negotiations with Chase were carried on over several months.
That’s quite unusual isn’t it, for it to take as long as that?
I think that... I actually don’t know how long. I mean you can’t really say whether they were
negotiations or not, but, they knew each other pretty well I think, Chase and Flemings, and it
was a pretty obvious one. I think it was quite well known that Chase were looking for a
strong platform in the Far East, and, to develop their fund management side in London. So it
was a pretty obvious entity to approach Fleming’s. I honestly don’t know how many weeks
or months negotiations went on for, but these sort of things take longer than you imagine,
and, I would say three to four months, something like that.
With no particular crises in it?
No, I think it...I think Chase appeared to be very keen to do a deal, at what they considered to
be an appropriate price. And, I imagine there was quite a lot of discussion about price, but...
And what does the Moscow office do, why Moscow?
Well, I think that, I mean Fleming’s had been interested in corporate advisory business in
emerging markets, and, I don’t know how Mark Garber came to work at Fleming’s, but I
think he was, he met Roddie in Moscow when Roddie was out there on a business trip, and
that’s how that developed. But, he’s a pretty able chap, Mark Garber. He’s... Yes,
he’s...he’s an academic, but he’s a, he’s more than just an academic, he has a lot of common
sense as well.
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And how many people are employed in the Dover Street office?
Fifty-two, and there are six people in Moscow. So we’re fifty-eight, fifty-eight going on
seventy-five, and, in two years’ time we may well be seventy-five, but we very much hope
we’ll never be more than seventy-five. We intend to keep it small in numbers of people, and
ever-increasing in numbers of clients.
And can it...it’s feasible to operate small in that sense?
I may be being a bit optimistic. Well, it is feasible, provided you don’t, you know, have inhouse lawyers and in-house this and in-house the other, and you are prepared to use the best
professionals outside for a lot of things.
And when you say that it was inevitable that Fleming’s would lose its independence, because
it was too small, would there in your view have been anything that the bank could have done
at some earlier stage, that would have meant that that situation wasn’t the case?
Well I suppose, they could have merged with someone. And I suppose conceivably, you
know, Schroders and Fleming’s could have got together. But even then you see, they
probably wouldn’t have been big enough. I think it was...it was a case of, they had to be
taken over, or go it alone, I think that was the answer. And going it alone left them very
vulnerable to world markets.
So is it this old thing about, say, the American banks having much more capital behind them
than any of the British institutions? Is it still that same route?
I’m afraid so, yes.
OK.
I’m afraid so.
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And again, if you wouldn’t mind, because we haven’t been doing continuing recordings,
could you just, if you could bear it, say again what’s happened to Schroders, actually explain
it for the tape?
Well, as I understand it, Schroders kept the whole of their fund management business, their
investment business, and they sold the rest of the business, namely, the main bit of it being
the corporate finance side, I think it was for £1.3 billion, to Salomon Smith Barney, part of
City Group. And, I think the general view was that it was a fairly disappointing price. But of
course Schroders have kept the jewel in the crown; some jewel. I suppose they have £150
million worth under management now, their investment side. But of course, that’s gone
through a slightly thinner period than they would like over the last, say three years I suppose.
They, Schroders, in my view of the leading fund management set-ups in the City, certainly
the British ones, over the last, I suppose the twenty years up to ’98, they were the best and
most reliable of the big ones. I mean I think they were better than Mercury Asset
Management; they were certainly much better than Phillips and Drew, who obviously had a
rough time by permanently being on the bear tack, or, certainly thinking more negatively than
most people. So, they did terribly well, and they were always, if you looked at the WM
median, year after year they were 0.8 per cent above, or 1.3 per cent above, and only once
were they below in a period of twenty years, and that was by 0.6. So, they were very good
and very solid. But of course, the last three years when markets have been extremely
volatile, and you have a period when high tech is all the rage, and the really good solid
quality stocks, they’re considered to be dull, so they get undervalued and fall quite sharply in
price, and the others go through the rafters. And OK, that’s come right a bit, but it’s quite
easy to be on the wrong tack both times, when high tech is rising and high tech is falling. So,
no, they sold for £1.3 billion, the whole business, except for the investment management
business, is how I understand it.
And was Mr Mallinckrodt still at the head of it?
Gobi Mallinckrodt, I think he’s Sir Georg, Sir Gobi. I’m not sure whether he’s allowed to
use the Sir, but anyway, Gobi Mallinckrodt. Wonderful fellow, married to Charmaine as you
know, Schroder. And, I would think he and Bruno and, Bruno Schroder, and Win Bischoff
were the three who decided. And, I would think one of the reasons Gobi was so involved is
that he was really the fellow who led it on to such a higher plane, and Win Bischoff took it on
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from there and did a fantastic job. But also, that, Gobi’s wife has quite a few shares in
Schroders.
I mean, I did a recording with most of those people, and Bruno was one of them, and I would
have thought he would be shattered that it was no longer going to be Schroders.
Yes. Well... But it is, but it’s just the investment side. Well they, they were too small on the
corporate finance side, and I think they found that they couldn’t keep pace with some of these
other huge entities.
Do you know what’s happened to Bruno?
I don’t know, but I imagine he’s still in the same old offices at 120.
And do you know what’s happened to Gobi Mallinckrodt?
Well, Gobi was quite ill about three years ago. I don’t know whether it was a heart attack or
heart flushes or what it was. But I saw him, I last saw Gobi about three or four months ago,
and he was, I don’t know what age he is, whatever age is Gobi, sixty-eight?
I can’t remember.
I don’t know, something like that. But he looked as if he was about fifty-six. And, he was in
very sparkly order. So, he is fine. I’ve not seen Bruno for a while. Win Bischoff I saw last
week, and he’s full of the joys of spring, and driving everything ever upwards.
And, in passing we’ve talked briefly about Hambros. What’s the situation there and what’s
happened to, say, Charles Hambro?
Well, I mean he became, did he become Treasurer of the Tory Party? I think he did. And, I
think he has an office with Jeffrey Sterling in Pall Mall, and, he has given up being chairman
of things like the Royal National Pension Fund for Nurses, and obviously Hambros, but,
because he’s seventy, I think he was seventy last May, I would say, that sort of time. And, so
he’s I suppose spending more time in the country, and with his wife.
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And I seem to think there was his son, Charles, or, I can’t quite remember the Christian name
of the son, but who was already going in to the bank.
There was Alex and, Alexander and Charlie, of the two sons.
And were they in the bank when it vanished, or...?
Yes.
And what’s happened to them, do you know?
Well I don’t know what’s happened to them. I really just don’t know what’s happened to
them.
Right. And, also we’ve mentioned in passing Cazenove’s. Can you for this tape say what’s
happening there?
No, no, of course I can’t. You should ask your old friend John Craven. (laughs) No, but,
they are becoming a corporate entity, and that process is going, I mean they’re doing
presentations around the areas at the moment, led by David Mayhew and some of his younger
colleagues. And, it’s very interesting actually, because Cazenove’s, I don’t know what
they’re raising, but I would imagine they’re raising something like £100 million, and they,
you know, are preparing I suppose to go fully public in due course. I just don’t know what
they’re up to. But, they are being led by David Mayhew, and considering what David
Mayhew’s been through on the Guinness affair, it is actually quite remarkable that not only
did he come through that, after all the accusations, the court case and everything else, come
through that, everyone taking the view that he was whiter than white, but he is leading this
thing, and when they raise money – leading the new Cazenove’s – when they raise money
they’ll be raising it I’m sure on terms that are considered to be by the investors, you know,
quite rich. I mean Cazenove’s is so highly rated, under him. And OK, Mark Loveday’s done
a marvellous job, taking over from Anthony Forbes and John Kemp-Welch, who equally did
an extraordinary job when they were joint senior partner for thirteen years. Cazenove’s, what
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will happen to Cazenove’s? I would guess in three to five years’ time that I’m afraid one of
these big fellows will come along and pay an inflated price for them.
And, while we were doing our main recordings on the City, Cazenove would be the last firm
that you would think this could ever happen to. I mean, was everyone...
Well there were so many people in ’86, you know, when Big Bang came in, there were so
many people trying to do a deal with Cazenove’s, did I would tell you what happened
between Gerrard & National and Cazenove’s?
I don’t think we did talk about that.
I don’t think I probably did. But, it actually was quite interesting, because, I mean I knew
John Kemp-Welch very well, and he knew most of my co-directors pretty well, and I
certainly knew Anthony Forbes well. And, he knew some of us, you know, certainly
reasonably well. But, we had, Archie Eglinton, my deputy chairman, and I had two quite
long talks with Messrs Kemp-Welch and Forbes, and the sort of tail end of the second
conversation, I suppose both of them were an hour and a half to two hours each, that sort of
thing; anyway, at the tail end, it became, of the second one, it became quite obvious that
nothing was going to happen. And, I thought John Kemp-Welch put it so nicely. He said, ‘If
we could be certain that Gerrard & National would go on as it is today, with the same sort of
people running it, I’m sure we’d think very seriously about doing a deal with you. But we
can’t be certain of that, therefore, perhaps we ought to let these talks rest for a while.’ Now
that was a very nice way of saying, ‘No, not at any price.’ (laughs) But John Kemp-Welch is
a particularly nice man.
And if he were still there, would what’s happening today be happening?
Yes. I think so.
Because?
I think... Well I think it’s...it’s... I mean it’s one thing to be the only truly respected, highly
regarded independent adviser, who can be put with any other adviser, and you’ve got a really
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independent view, as opposed to, you know, people being, other advisers being owned by
other entities. It’s, it’s good to have an independent fellow. But you’ve actually got to have
more clout financially than they had. So it had to happen. I’m sure, I’ve no idea, but I am
sure John Kemp-Welch is saying to himself, ‘This was inevitable, and it’s probably the right
timing.’
So therefore, there wasn’t so much shock in the City?
There wasn’t so much what?
Shock, in the City?
No. No no no no no. Well I wouldn’t think so; I wasn’t at all surprised. I mean, I suppose
when the announcement came, it was, yes, I thought, you know, that, I didn’t think that
would happen for a little while. But it was going to happen.
When you were still at Gerrard’s, would you have predicted it would happen in your lifetime?
Well that’s an unfair question really. [pause] I think I would have said that, you know,
something has to happen, yes.
Right.
I think so. I think I’d have been as confident about that as I was that Barings would have
gone on too.
Right. (laughs) And, that does lead us rather neatly into Gerrard’s. I haven’t done a
recording specifically about Gerrard’s since 1993.
Yes.
So, I wondered if you could fill in.
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Well I left the board in, I mean I gave up as chairman in April ’89, and, I gave up as, as a
director, non-executive director, in October 1994. So I don’t know what’s happened since,
but obviously one’s watched it like a hawk from outside. And, I think it’s extraordinary
really, because, the discount market as we’ve known it over so many generations gradually
became less important to the Bank of England, and eventually the relationship with the Bank
of England, I mean they didn’t cast the discount market off, you know, at a distance; I mean
they’ve remained, they’ve got a good relationship with the discount market, but, it’s not that
important to them any longer. And things like the weekly meeting with the Governor that
went on for ever and ever, I mean I imagine that came to an end several years ago; I’m sure it
doesn’t happen now. And, it wasn’t so much the death of the discount market, but the
discount market really became quite unimportant. And, I think Gerrard’s really focused more
on developing GNI and then that all came together, and Williamson went, Brian Williamson
went as chairman, and Mark Davies took over, who was a GNI person.
[End of F9682 Side A]
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Tape 15 [F9682] Side B (part 29)
....leave in the natural course of things, or...?
Well he left, I can’t remember the precise timing, but I am sure it was because the Governor
of the Bank of England, Eddie George, realised that the only person who could rescue LIFFE,
London International Financial Futures Exchange, was Brian Williamson, because he and
John Boucher[ph] set the thing up, and OK, at that time John Boucher[ph] was, you know,
the...he fronted the whole thing, but Brian Williamson knew the nuts and bolts backwards; he
really understands futures, and, like probably nobody else in the world: well there must be
other people who understand it almost as well, but he has understood it very clearly and in
great depth for longer than anyone else I would think. And, who else was going to save
LIFFE? And, it had to be Brian, and he had to leave Gerrard’s. And I think, Brian had done,
he must have done ten years as chairman of Gerrard’s, and it was time for him to move on.
And Mark Davies, who was very respected within the group, running GNI, and outside, was
such a natural successor. I think the timing was perfect. And I think that Brian was very,
courageous is putting it far too strongly, but, I thought, think it was splendid that he did take
on the chairmanship of LIFFE, but I think he made it quite clear to the Governor that, he’d do
it for a while but then it would be somebody else’s turn.
Has he stayed married by the way?
He has. He has stayed married to Diane, and, who is Belgian as you know, and she very
sadly had quite a severe stroke. This was, I suppose it must have been, seems so long ago, I
don’t know whether it was, it’s sort of, seven or eight months. No I think, I think it must be a
year now. And she’s very very much better now, and, but I think she and he have had a
difficult time, with him being so phenomenally busy, with the dramas at LIFFE and having to
lay off so many people, and his wife being so ill.
She was young to have a stroke wasn’t she?
Yes, I don’t know, Diane I would think is fifty-five, something like that. And, it was just on
holiday and it just suddenly happened.
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Awful.
Awful. But, she’ll be OK, she’s a...she’s a survivor. But I think, you know, when you’ve
had a stroke, the rehabilitation is quite difficult, because you get depressed and things like
that. But I think she’s... I mean I saw Brian this morning as it happens, because we’re both
involved in St Paul’s Cathedral. And, so... No, I think she’s getting much better.
And he’s not with LIFFE any more, is that right?
He’s Chairman of LIFFE, yes.
He still is?
Yes, still is.
What I didn’t understand about LIFFE is, I understood it at one point, they were thinking
they were going to build a bigger base for LIFFE in Spitalfields, on the site.
Yes.
And surely at that point it was, it was fairly obvious that open outcry[???] was done for,
wasn’t it?
Yes.
How did it go on so long?
I don’t know. I really don’t know. You’d better interview Brian again, he’ll tell you all.
Actually his, his story is, it continues to be very interesting I think. And, who he got in to
back LIFFE in its hour of need, and how pleased they are that they did invest in LIFFE. I
think he’s, he’s done a remarkable job, I would say.
Mm. And so, sorry, what...the successor to Brian at Gerrard...
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Mark Davies. Mark Davies, it used to worry me that, he was a point-to-point jockey, and,
you know, one always worries about jockeys, and, I think he won something like fifty-eight
races. Very competitive, and a good jockey. And, the awful moment when it was announced
that Mark Davies had been killed riding in a point-to-point, and in actual fact it was another
Mark Davies, and, tragic for his family, but it wasn’t ours. But you know, that made one
even more concerned. But, Mark Davies has been in GNI for a long time; I honestly don’t
know his origins, but he’s a very amusing, very civilised and extremely able individual, and I
was thrilled when Brian Williamson succeeded me as chairman of Gerrard’s, but I was
equally thrilled when Mark Davies succeeded Brian. He’s an almost[???] courteous fellow; I
mean he obviously couldn’t talk to me about anything that was, you know, sensitive, but, he
went out of his way to, you know, ask one to things, and be friendly and talk about old staff
who had retired, and who might be, you know, financially stretched, or whatever. I mean he
is a very good man, very good man indeed.
And so what’s happened to Gerrard?
Gerrard has been sold to Old Mutual, you know, the South African company, and, sold at
what I would have thought was a pretty high price. And, again, it was too small, its
traditional business had really been eroded by the passage of time, and it really didn’t have
any future. Gerrard & National used to be I think a very good, as a certain Deputy Governor
of the Bank of England, when I said this, he interjected, ‘punting shop.’ I said I thought that
was a rather vulgar expression. This was George Blunden obviously, it couldn’t have been
anyone else. But, we were risk-takers, I would like to say, and pretty good risk-takers by and
large. And when that had gone out of the business, and it had become more a broker than a
principal through GNI, I think that was the beginning of the end for Gerrard & National
really.
What did you feel when it happened?
I funnily enough felt much less sad than I thought I would. The actual announcement, you
know, came as a little bit of a shock, because I had no knowledge that it was going to happen,
although one believed it was bound to happen within a few months, there seemed to be
rumours going around. But, no, I mean I was sad. And I actually immediately thought that
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our little pension, annual pensioners’ lunch would be getting smaller and smaller rather
quicker.
And what’s happened to people like Tommy Fellowes?
Tommy Fellowes. He retired, and as you know he had, he’s had bad eye trouble for a long
time, and it was a good thing he did retire from a stressful job, but he has recently had an
operation on his only good eye, and touch wood it’s been very successful and he sees better
now than he has done for a long while. I think it was Purdy’s, the gun makers, he became, he
became a director of Purdy’s. I think it’s Purdy’s. And... But one of those, you know, gun
makers. And I’m sure he’s on the board of various other things. He’s still very happily
married to the redoubtable Rosamund[ph], and I’m told he has two particularly, particularly,
not Tommy-like daughters, but they are...they have strong opinions on almost everything.
(laughs)
And what’s happened...
And are great fun too.
What’s happened to Henry Askew?
Henry Askew, he sadly has got divorced, three children. He lives up in Scotland, in the main,
and, I get a telephone call once every three months, and we meet up for lunch or a drink or
whatever it is. And he is still intensely interested in, you know, the money markets and all
that sort of thing, or the stock markets. But I think his main business interest is a travel
company, which I would guess specialises in travel to places like Morocco, I think he’s very
keen on that particular area. But I’m told it’s doing very well. And, Henry is just as thin and
highly strung. No no, that’s quite untrue. He’s not as highly strung as he was, but he’s jolly
nearly as highly strung. And he’s thin, and sparky, and moving from one thing to the other
very rapidly.
Is Scotland a family base? I think it is isn’t it?
Yes. It is, yes, in the Borders.
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Does he see his children?
Oh yes. Oh very much so. No, I think it, it works very well. mean it’s very sad that they’ve
divorced. I imagine they divorced, I mean certainly been parted for some time. And I think
the relationship between him and Rosie is fine, you know, but it’s superficial compared to
what it was. And, oh no, he, I mean he talks about, you know, bringing Jack to Highbury,
and whatever. So I mean I’m sure it works, it works well, as well as those things can.
And Ross Jones?
Ross Jones is still married to Annabel, and, she is still doing a flourishing trade in her
jewellery design business. Ross I think at one stage was wondering whether he would be
required by the new sort of Gerrard GNI group, and, because risk-taking was coming out of
the business. But he is as appreciated now I would think as he ever has been. And, he is a
pretty key member of Gerrard-cum-GNI within the Old Mutual group. And I would think
he’ll go from strength to strength.
I was going to say, I think when I first came to see you in your office in Wellcome Trust, and I
don’t think it’s on tape, but I think when we were discussing who might be recorded, you said
Ross Jones, who was probably not long out of his twenties at that point.
That’s right.
And you thought he was a future chairman of Gerrard & National, and obviously that didn’t
take into account the world changing so vastly.
No. And I think that if the world had gone on just the same, that it would be blindingly
obvious to anyone who knew anything about it that Ross would have succeeded Mark
Davies.
So, given the way the world has changed, is he, is the ceiling lower for him now, because...?
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Yes, you would have thought it was sort of all slightly more enclosed, wouldn’t you, and, it
would be quite difficult for him to break out into still higher ground. But he’s got almost
everything right I’m told, you know, regarding his career within that group, and you know, he
obviously did when I was there, well he did when I was there, but he certainly has ever since.
And, I wouldn’t put it past him, going on to much higher things at some stage. The only
mistake he’s made is investing in Queen’s Park Rangers, who must be one of the more
disappointing football clubs of the last decade, but, he took a small stake in...actually, I think
he bought quite a lot of shares very cheap, and they’re even cheaper now. (laughs)
But, I can’t remember what age he’d be now, but isn’t he...hasn’t he slightly missed the boat
already, or am I being [inaudible]?
No, he’s...he, when I was chairman... I would think, what is he, forty-three?
I can’t quite remember, but...
I would think, yes, because he came to Gerrard’s when he was eighteen I think, may have
been just nineteen. I would think he’s forty-two, forty-three, that sort of thing.
So shouldn’t he be there by now, by today’s standards?
Yes. But I think...he is such a sensible person, I think he, he still might break out into high
[inaudible].
And is he still as enthusiastic?
Oh absolutely.
Because I think, when I did my very last follow-up recording with him before doing the book,
that one of the things he felt was that really in a way what the man at Cazenove’s was saying,
that, your group were so civilised and such good human beings, and that more and more of
the City was being taken over by a much more rapacious, crude...
Yes.
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...generation, and that he was not very happy in that, and that... He was quite distressed I
seem to think when I saw him at one point, by the sort of codes of behaviour and the way it
was getting...
Oh yes, I think so. He’s...he’s a highly ethical individual, and he’s certainly, you know, as I
say, I’m sure I’ve said at some stage or other, extremely ambitious, but in a civilised way,
and if he does hit the jackpot, which he might do, I mean he’s pretty highly paid now, but, if
he does hit the jackpot, he would want to, he would want to look after his wife and children
in, you know, a very generous way, or, you know, I mean he would really look after his
family, but he would also love to make some more money so he could put it back. I mean he
is a giver by nature.
And do you still see him?
No I don’t see enough of him, because we both live equally ridiculous lives, that we have no
time to do anything.
When did you last see him?
Ross? Three weeks ago.
Oh right.
Yes. Oh no no no, we, we meet from time to time.
And when you meet, in what circumstances?
Well it’s usually to do with Gerrard’s actually. It could well be, I mean if Arsenal were being
drawn against QPR, certainly he would be at the top of my list to invite, with some of his
chums. No, it’s usually Gerrard connected. I sometimes see him, I mean he’s rather a friend
of the Todd-Hunt[???] family, of all ages, and I’ve seen him around sort of, the odd cocktail
party and things like that, but it’s sort of business-orientated really.
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So what’s your connection with Gerrard’s now?
None really. I’m pension fund trustee.
And does he still have two children?
I would think so.
Right.
Yes.
He hasn’t added to that. OK, and how much do you go back into the City now?
Not very much. I mean I probably told you, when I left the City, when I gave up being
Chairman of Gerrard’s, in my last year, I just worked it out, looking at the diary, and various
other things, that I’d been asked out to lunch in my last year in the City more than 300 times,
and obviously didn’t go to them all, and the next year I was asked out to lunch by institutions
in the City seven times. And, they just... It’s quite extraordinary isn’t it, what business life is
like, you know, one moment you’re wanted, or you’re useful, and then, you’re gone.
And is it significant that the new Fleming’s enterprise is in Dover Street rather than the City?
Is it significant? Yes, I think it is significant. We don’t want to be in the City.
Because?
I think there are people... Well, I mean, I would never say anything against the City, because
I mean, I owe the City of London so much, but, I’m afraid I don’t enjoy the fact that human
relationships in business in the City really count for so little now, and it was the basis of it all
when I was first there. And, I think it’s very refreshing being in the West End. Sort of
having gone from the City in ’89, and, you know, spent ten years full-time at Wellcome, OK
the Euston Road, but I used to sneak down to the St James’s area given half a chance, I mean
you know, someone asks me to lunch at Boodle’s or something, I’d certainly go if I possibly
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could. And, I love the West End. And, it’s...it’s... I mean, the City itself you see, I mean
Lombard Street, which was the sort of jewel in the financial world internationally I think as a
street, much, much more important than Wall Street, but Wall Street’s got its Wall Street as
well, but Lombard Street is now, well it’s not tatty, but it’s not...it’s not a hub, it’s nothing
really. And, I find, you know, the Cornhills and Threadneedle Streets and King William
Streets of this world quite drab compared to what they ought to be, and I’m afraid Canary
Wharf has taken the gloss off the City of London. So, I wouldn’t want to go in Canary
Wharf, because, a) it’s too far from my sort of natural habitat, but it’s all too sort of brash and
new, but I do admire it enormously, I think what’s been achieved there is quite extraordinary,
but it has made the City itself, the Square Mile, a little dingy, and I think, it’s now the West
End for me.
Is the Square Mile over then?
I think it is, isn’t it, really? I went to a meeting in Angel Court on the 18th floor, and looking
over the City, I don’t know, it... I mean St Paul’s was a shining beacon, but even the Bank of
England looked a bit drab from above. And then you look round at Canary Wharf, and it’s all
sparkling and new and, I don’t know.
And actually, just briefly, what about the Sterling building that replaces the Mappin &
Webb?
Well I don’t actually know how tall it’s going to be, and what it’s going to look like, but I
would say it was quite a big step in the wrong direction.
Mm. And the Bank of England obviously is one of the things I wanted to talk to you about,
because when we last talked it was ’95, and the Conservative Party was in, and there’s been
a big change. Were you taken aback by the Labour Party...?
Yes. Well I was, and I was somewhat appalled by the treatment of Eddie George by Gordon
Brown. And maybe one was sort of overreacting and was ultra-sensitive, but, I just thought it
was sort of, a little bit of public humiliation.
I’m being very stupid, I don’t know what you mean.
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Well, I think he... Well you’re not being very stupid at all, and I can’t remember the exact
circumstances, but he was basically saying that, Gordon Brown, that the Bank of England
were no longer much use for what they used to be, and power must be given to the other
authorities like the, I suppose it was the SIB, which became what, was it the FSA or the SFA?
I never remember. But anyway, he was really taking power away from the Bank of England,
and I think it was done rather crudely and unnecessarily harshly in public. But, I have to say,
having talked to Gordon Brown when discussing the relationship between the Government
and the Wellcome Trust, that, I’m surprised he was so harsh with the Bank of England and
Eddie George, I think he could have done it in a much more civilised way. Because he’s a
pretty good negotiator, and, with the Wellcome Trust he certainly didn’t talk down to us like
some other politicians have in the past. He, he played his cards particularly well I thought.
What were you talking about?
Joint ventures with Government, which have, have happened between Wellcome and the
Government. But, he realised that the Wellcome Trust was not going to kowtow to any
Government of any colour, and their independence from Government was extremely
important to them, and, he just played his cards very well. I don’t think he played them that
tactfully with the Bank of England, because as you know from our previous talk, that I have
always had the highest regard for Eddie George, and I think he’s done a supremely good job,
first of all when I got to know him way back, was when he was responsible for the discount
market, and as I’m sure I’ve said before on tape, he could read us like a book, he could see us
all coming, particularly me. And, therefore, you know, one [inaudible] has always[???] been
reasonably subtle at times, and... But he could see through all that sort of hogwash. And he
was a great reader of markets, an understander of markets, an understander of the
marketplace and the so-called key individuals in the marketplace. But he’s also one of the
best central bankers we’ve ever had, I mean I would think that, he would be certainly in the
same class as Volcker, Richardson, and, he’s had in the same opportunities as Greenspan, but
I wouldn’t put him quite in that league purely because he hasn’t had the opportunities, but he
could have been another Greenspan.
Will there be a sort of crisis of confidence when Greenspan drops dead or retires?
Greenspan has sort of, almost become a god figure.
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Yes, you see some of us, you know, when the market’s been falling, oh, you know, you must
get out, you know, this is the last opportunity, this bull run is crazy, et cetera et cetera. I’m
afraid I blindly took the view that Greenspan, you know, will run the US economy, or lead
the US economy, as effectively as anyone could possibly do, and I think that... I mean I have
tremendous confidence in Greenspan, and I am sure someone is being trained to succeed
Greenspan, and, there will never be a clone of Greenspan, but I would think that... No, I
don’t think there will be a crisis of confidence. I’m sure Wall Street... I mean if, God forbid
that if Greenspan was struck down with some disease and it was announced tomorrow that he
was going, Wall Street would be off 500 points, but it would be probably be up 300 on the
announcement of the new chairman.
And what about the Bank of England’s current position? What has it meant, the change in
relationship to Government?
I don’t think I’ve followed it closely enough to sort of make an effective comment. It
obviously doesn’t have the teeth it used to have, and that’s I think sad for the City of London
and sad for the country.
But it has independence.
Well sort of, hasn’t it. Yes it does, I suppose it has its own committee to decide interest rates.
I wonder how independent that is.
So do you think Eddie George feels diminished?
Oh I’m sure he does.
Why didn’t he resign?
(laughs) I mean it’s very good question. What else could he do, of anything like the same
importance? I mean it’s quite fun being Governor of the Bank of England, I imagine. I
always had a burning ambition to be Chief Cashier, but Merlyn Lowther got that job, so...
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Actually she was one of the other people I wanted to ask you about, because, I think in our
very very early meetings, or our very early recordings, you predicted that she would go very
high in the Bank of England.
Yes.
And, I wondered if you could just talk about her [inaudible].
Well when she did become Chief Cashier, I said, you know, my only regret was that she had
snatched the job that I had aimed for ever since I left at school. But, I don’t know how
influential Merlyn is, because she’s been, after the very high profile three months
immediately after her appointment, you know, it’s all gone a bit quiet for her, sort of, public
relations wise, and probably a great relief to her that that has happened. But, I would think
that Merlyn Lowther has probably been offered more jobs than anyone would believe
possible, since she became Chief Cashier. In fact, in the days of Wellcome, when Wellcome
was Wellcome Plc, I did recommend to the hierarchy there that they should seriously
consider her as a non-executive director, and I think she would have been extremely good,
with her knowledge of the currency markets and fixed interest and, you know, debt and all
that sort of thing. I mean she, and, well she would be the ideal female director I think, not
that one has male or female directors, but you know, in those days you had very few ladies on
the board of public companies; now you’ve got a lot. And I think she would have been first
class. And I was disappointed that they ignored that suggestion. She has become a trustee of
Smiths’ Charity, but that happened before she became Chief Cashier, and I should think
that’s all she’s allowed to do outside.
[End of F9682 Side B]
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Tape 16 [F9682] Side A (part 30)
There are two things that I realised I haven’t got in your original interview, and then there’s
some slightly flippant questions. And then maybe if we can do the Wellcome in a serious
block of talk.
And the Wellcome one we’ll do later, would we?
Yes, if that’s all right.
Yes, I think much better[???].
OK. I was reading the speech that was made for you when you retired from Wellcome, The
Wizard of Wellcome, and, I’m fairly sure I didn’t cover when I was talking to you, you had
time in Germany as a child, I think[???].
Yes.
I don’t think we covered that at all. Could you just tell me about that?
When I was fifteen and a half, at Eton, and I was about to fail the end of term exams again,
my housemaster, a man called Jack Peterson, who was a wonderful man, became headmaster
of Shrewsbury, and he was leaving obviously, and, he was succeeded by a man called Donald
Bowsfield[ph], who sadly actually died earlier this week, who must have been in his very late
eighties. Anyway, what happened...and you’re saying, what happened in Germany. Well the
answer is, that when I was fifteen and a half it was negotiated with Robert Birley by Jack
Peterson that I should stay at Eton until I was just seventeen, because I maintained, if I went
earlier it would be a terrible smear on my c.v., not that I’d ever heard of the expression, c.v.,
and it might affect, you know, my prospects in later life. And Robert Birley very kindly
agreed. So I was sent off to see him, and, I’ll never forget it, because he obviously had been
primed in every detail by Jack Peterson. And, anyway, I went off to see him, and, he said,
‘What would you really like to do? Would you like to stay here a little longer, or do you
think it would be better for you to go now and start a new school life elsewhere? Because
you’re not making the progress that you should.’ And I put forward my case, and he said,
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‘What a sensible suggestion. But I think we have to agree that you must go when you’re just
seventeen, because I think it’s in your interest.’ Anyway, what was to happen to me aged just
seventeen, and my mother was, she was oversees commissioner for the Girl Guides, and
someone called Lady Stratheden was the chief guide, and they were great friends, and they
were talking over lunch at Girl Guide headquarters about their respective children, and my
mother did say, ‘Well we’ve got a problem with Roger, our fourth son, because he’s about to
leave Eton early, and you know, what on earth do we do with him? There’s no point in just
send him to another school; shouldn’t he do something more interesting, learn a language?’
And she said, ‘Well, I’ve got great friends, German friends, called the Garlands living near
Münster in Westphalia; they’ve got five daughters and a son just around Roger’s age. I
would have thought he should go and spend a few months there.’ And I went there for five
months to live with the Garlands, a most delightful family, and I was a sort of, well I was a
chicken farmer for three months, but as there were such huge great churns of sour milk that
were delivered every day that we had to feed to the chickens, they were so heavy I couldn’t
even carry them in the, or put them in a barrow. So, I was made the under-keeper, and I was
there to keep the vermin down, but I was a lousy shot, and, I think I only got one grey
squirrel in two and a half months. But, I was, I lived with the Garlands, and had a wonderful
happy time there. And after that I was strategically or carefully placed at Millfield, in
Somerset.
Yes, Millfield, we talked about. So where were you in Germany?
We were twenty miles from Münster, and, in a place called Hausassen[ph], which is a
marvellous old German Schloss with its own moat, and this delightful family. And Graf
Garland[ph], who is still alive aged ninety-something, he was someone who started the war in
the German army as a private, and he was so much against it that, he was actually an
anglophile, that he finished the war as a private, although he was a very able man. And they
housed, you know, British parachutists who got lost in their lofts and things. I mean took
terrific risks on behalf of the British, and... Anyway, but he never command...he never got a
real sort of command of the English language, in fact his English was almost as bad as my
German. And, when I, I used to write to Grafeen[ph] Garland[ph], Sophie Garland[ph], a
most delightful woman, and I used to write to her, I suppose I sent a Christmas card every
Christmas, but I used to write to her every two years, and particularly when the Russians
invaded Czechoslovakia, because she was a Kinski, she was a Czech. And, in a distant sort
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of way we remained really relatively close for years. And, this must have been about seven
years ago she was in, I knew she was coming to London, and I got hold of her and said, you
know, ‘What about dinner?’ And we had dinner together, and, at Daphne’s, you know, that
restaurant, and we spent about three and a half hours chatting about those days. And of
course she was only thirty-eight when I was there, I thought she was quite old, but she was
very good-looking. And she had these wonderful daughters, and she asked me which one I
liked most, and all that sort of thing, and I said to her that I thought Rosie[???] was the
absolute winner. And she said, ‘You’re a good picker, I think Rosie[???] was one of the very
best.’ And, so I said, ‘Well I was seventeen and she was fifteen.’ She said, ‘No, she was
thirteen.’ I said, ‘No she was fifteen.’ She said, ‘I am her mother, I do know when she was
born.’ And, anyway, she said, ‘How did you get on with my husband, how did you get on
with Berndt?’ And, I said, ‘After a week staying with you, we’d had halting conversations,
and he said to me, “Roger, we know each other quite well now, and we know we like each
other, therefore I don’t think there’s much need for us going on talking to each other.”’ And
she said, ‘That is typical of Berndt, so idle about languages, and so odd really when he was so
keen on the British.’ But anyway, I had a very happy time there, and, we...then I went on to
Millfield after that.
What was the chicken concern, what was it?
Well, the reason for chickens was that, Berndt had two cousins who were in East Germany,
Grafeen Magniss[ph] and Grafeen Henckel[ph], and they came out of East Germany, they
had nowhere to go, and they stayed with the Garlands in this enormous great house, Schloss.
And, they had their own sort of apartments, and they had sort of two bedrooms to themselves
each, and they, Grafeen Magniss[ph] was a splendid woman, great fun, she spoke English
pretty well too, she was really in charge of the gardens, and they had to find a job for
Grayfeen Henckel[ph]. And, she wasn’t quite so sort of user-friendly really; I mean I liked
her, but I was quite frightened of her, whereas I would run to Grafeen Magniss[ph] if I had a
problem. And, anyway, she was interested in birds, so, he set up a chicken farm for Grafeen
Henckel[ph]. We had 1,000 free range hens. And, they used to go into their little hutches in
this building to lay their eggs, and then when they got in, you know, the latch came down, so
you would put your hand underneath these chickens and take out however many eggs were
there, and then you would pull out the leg and it would have a number on it. So I would read
out to someone, ‘Einhundertzweiundzwanzig,’ or whatever it was. So I learnt how to count
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up to 1,000 in German. But actually I grew six inches in the five months I was there, and my
voice had only just broken, I was just seventeen, and, I mean I really was a physical disaster.
And also a mental one, because I couldn’t really absorb anything, I was growing so fast. And
I went off to Millfield, and, slightly daunted by Millfield, but I met one or two friends who
had been sacked from Eton, so that was all right. And, I had a German housemaster, and the
sad end to this story is, I took my O levels a year later, six of them at the age of eighteen and
a half, and, I failed three of them, including German, which didn’t reflect very well on me, or
actually the Garlands, because they allowed me to talk English to all those girls the whole
time. And, it didn’t actually also reflect very well on my German housemaster.
Have you used German since?
(laughs) No. I actually was so ashamed, I took German lessons in the evenings. I must have
had thirty or forty lessons; I simply couldn’t get a grip of it at all.
Have you got other languages?
No, none.
And, how were you regarded as an English person at that time in Germany? Was there any...
Oh, everyone was very friendly. Very friendly. Cardinal Garland, Berndt’s cousin, was a
very very important figure in Münster, and, it was either... I mean he used to preach every
Sunday throughout the war, and he used to attract a crowd of 4,000, 5,000, 7,000, in the
square. And he would speak against the Nazis. I mean incredibly courageous man. And it’s
either in Goebbels’s diaries, or Goering’s diary, and at one point it says ‘Cardinal Garland’,
and in pencil written by one of those two, and I can never remember which it was, it said,
‘Too dangerous to take.’ Which was the ultimate compliment to Cardinal Garland. So the
Garlands were considered to be, you know, fairly pro-British.
And when you went there, how politically aware would you have been? Because you’d been,
not in that kind of environment really.
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No no, I wasn’t politically aware at all. But, easily the most interesting thing... I mean they
took me off to Münster, you know, to have lunch with people on Sunday. And there was
a...there was a woman called Titty Nagel[ph], who was very high up in the dressage,
international dressage world, and, wonderful horses I remember there. But easily the most
interesting visit I ever made was with Sophie Garland[ph], my hostess, and she took me on
my own to the Mohne Dam, which was about thirty miles away. And we stood on the Mohne
Dam, and she spent an hour explaining exactly what had happened, all the Dam Busters
and...and you know, and about the, the local priest and how he went up the hill, and he rang
the church bells, and he was a bit eccentric and people in the middle of the night thought,
well he must have gone slightly bonkers, or, left a church door open, or whatever. And he
warned everyone that the raid was happening, and they must get to higher ground. And 800
of them didn’t take any notice, and they were all drowned. But it was... And when I took
English language in O level, which is not a sort of tremendously daunting task for an
Englishman, well it shouldn’t be, but it was for me, it said, ‘Write an essay on something of
real interest to you,’ and I wrote about the Mohne Dam, and apparently got extremely high
marks, because it was pretty graphic stuff. And, I’ll never forget that, that was a marvellous
day, and it was so moving, you know, and it was told by a German being totally impartial.
And had you ever been away and stayed with a family like that who you didn’t know?
No, never.
So it was quite a maturing experience presumably.
Yes, and I think, I was taken over to the Hook of Holland by someone called Edward
Woodall[ph] who is a cousin, who is actually chairman of British, well the equivalent of
British Gas, or is it...no, it was Southern Gas, Southern Gas Board, and he was on various
other boards. He was quite a successful businessman. And he kindly took me over to the
Hook of Holland, and put me on a train. My God! it was a bad moment, leaving him, and
heading off to Münster. I’d no idea, I might have been going to the Moon really, you know.
Anyway.
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Because we’re going to run out of time, I’m going to ask you two very quick questions, one
which I’ll pick up next time, which is rather absurd. Is it so from that article, you really did
own a greyhound?
Yes, certainly.
And you really were Trent Baxter[ph]?
G.V.S. Trent Baxter[ph].
OK. Both those things I want to talk to you about next time. And just a last daft question.
What are your predictions, in case I don’t see you before it, for the General Election?
Well I tell you, we talked about spread betting earlier. The price for Labour seats in the next
Election is 373 to 377. I would be a heavy seller of Labour seats at 373. (laughs)
[break in recording]
Do. I mean, you’ve mentioned G.V.S. Trent-Baxter[ph]. That is much more interesting than
quite a lot of other things, because, as you probably know, otherwise you wouldn’t be asking
the question, it was all to do with John Lucan.
Oh, no I didn’t.
Yes, was another [inaudible].
[end of session]
[End of F9683 Side A]
[Side B is blank]
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Tape 17 [F12013] Side A (part 31)
.....going to do my usual sound check if I may.
Do.
Could you tell me your name, what today’s date is, and where we are.
My name is Roger Gibbs. We are at 23 Tregunter Road, where I’ve lived for the last
thirty years, thirty-two years, and the date is the 11th of October 2002, and, why I’m
hesitating is that, in two days’ time I will have reached the great age of sixty-eight.
And you mind your address being on the tape?
Not at all, no.
[break in recording]
.....celebrate your birthday?
Do you know, the awful thing is, I have hardly thought about it. I think I might...well
a couple of brothers and maybe a couple of others, we’ll have a, probably a quiet...not
quiet, rather good dinner here on Saturday night.
And, you were just going to tell me something about Roddie Fleming.
Well, Roddie Fleming is an extraordinary person. He is forty-eight. He is the son of
Richard Fleming, who did so much to develop Fleming’s in the, I suppose the Fifties
and the Sixties and early Seventies. And Richard Fleming, being the brother of
Michael who was killed, or died of his wounds, at Dunkirk, Peter Fleming a very
good author, and Ian Fleming, the very successful author. And... But, Roddie is one
of eight children, and he has an extraordinarily articulate and talented and delightful
brother called Adam, who was always going to be chairman of Fleming’s, I mean it
was blindingly obvious for a very long while. But anyway, he decided that he didn’t
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want to do that, and he wanted to do his own thing, and he built up a company called
Harmony Gold, which has been extremely successful. And, so who was going to be
chairman of Fleming’s? So it turned out that Roddie was the, yes, the natural one to
succeed Robin Fleming, his cousin. And Roddie actually, he is, I think he’s, must be
six foot four, something like that, and the moment he, or very shortly after he became
Chairman of Fleming’s, Chase bought Fleming’s. So as he said at the sort of farewell
dinner, he was the tall...the tallest chairman of an investment house, and was chairman
for the shortest time. And he was the mastermind behind the sale of Fleming’s to
Chase, and he and John Craven were really the, the two people who dominated that.
And, it was decided by the family, the Fleming family, they wanted to start again, and
Roddie was the...he is the key person at Fleming Family & Partners. I mean I may be
Chairman, but Roddie is all-important, and has the most unbelievable energy, and if
you ever were to interview him, you would find that he would be pacing up and down
most of the time, he just simply cannot sit still. And he’s thinking about fourteen
things at the same time. He’s one of those.
Do you think he would be open to being interviewed?
I would think not at the moment, but I would think in, in a year or two’s time, I would
think he would be. And, he would be extremely interesting because he would say
exactly what he thought about everyone and everything, and he is...he is terribly keen
on emerging markets and, whether it be, you know, mining situations in Russia or
Cuba or whatever. And, he’s very bright, and he’s a very attractive personality in
that, people want to work for him, and so he’s got quite a good team round him.
I recorded John Craven about a month ago as a top-up, and of course he was talking
about the sale of Fleming’s, so it would be fascinating to have...
Yes.
...both of them on. Am I right in thinking that Val is someone who would never want
to be interviewed?
He would never want to be interviewed.
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And what about Robin?
Robin certainly would not want to be interviewed. I would think... I mean I could
easily put it to Robin, because, I mean he is such a, he is such a... He is a quiet man, I
mean he really is, and, a most delightful person, and he’s done so much for others,
particularly, you know, since his family trust has become so valuable, charitable trust.
I mean he’s, he’s done some wonderful things. And, he’s the most self-effacing,
unassuming fellow. And, I could easily put it to him. I mean I could put it to Roddie
too. But I think at the moment Roddie is rushing around all over the world doing
different things, I think it’s...when things have calmed down, if they ever do, that
would be the moment for Roddie. Robin I could easily talk to, but I think it’s
unlikely.
Because Robin’s presumably twenty years odd his senior?
He is seventy, exactly.
Yes. So it would be terribly interesting to get the slightly older generation’s
perspective as well.
Yes.
Because that...
I think it would be perfectly reasonable to ask Robin to do this for the national
archive, because, the Fleming family is a, it’s a pretty interesting family, and he is
head of it. So... I could put that to him. Put that in the letter.
OK. Because presumably, it would just, also it would give us a little bit more of the
bank’s history first-hand...
Yes.
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...than we’d get. And of course having got Val’s mother, one’s at least got some sense
of that part of the family.
Yes.
And then, obviously Chris is an entirely different world, Chris Fleming.
Yes.
But it begins to all fit in bit by bit.
But, Robin’s father was Philip, and his...I think...maybe his grandfather or greatgrandfather was Robert who founded it. I think it was his grandfather, because, it
was...it went... Fleming’s existed for 127 years, so I think probably his grandfather
founded it. I mean he, he would be interesting.
Yes. Especially since the bank as it was, no longer exists.
Yes.
And no Fleming has anything to do with the Chase part at the moment, is that right?
No. I mean there is Chase Fleming, but it...none of the Flemings are involved in any
way at all, no.
Mm. And, actually I wasn’t thinking of coming in on this, but since we’re in
Fleming’s at the moment, when we were talking last time you mentioned the Moscow
office.
Yes.
And you just alluded to something there. I’m still confused as to why Moscow rather
than anywhere else that you would have an office.
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Well, I suppose, I mean that was Fleming’s Moscow office, which Chase didn’t want,
and a fellow called Mark Garber was a particularly close ally of Roddie Fleming’s
over the last five, seven years I suppose now, and I think Mark Garber persuaded
Roddie that there were some very exciting situations in Russia. And when Russia was
led by someone who was more pro the West, there would be marvellous opportunities
to introduce large Russian companies to large Western companies, and, you know,
and try and give these large Western companies to, say, take five per cent of one of
the big companies, whether it be Luke Oil or whatever, and, so Russia would get
business-wise more entwined with the West. And you know, probably good deals
could be done, because the Russians would be quite prepared to sell quite cheap, say
five per cent of a large company to a Western company, and obviously that would suit
the Western company. And there would be scope for the honest broker, such as
Roddie or Mark Garber, to take a healthy turn in between.
And has that happened?
It’s early days to say it has happened. It’s certainly happened to a degree, to a small
degree, and it might happen to a larger degree.
But it’s still considered worth maintaining an office there?
Oh very much so. Very much so. Much more so now than previously. I mean before
the Putin days, I would think it was a...it was a major query, but under Putin it’s, it’s
been very worthwhile, very worthwhile.
And the nationality of the six people in the office there?
It’s actually fourteen. So that indicates that, you know, it’s considered to be
worthwhile. Russians. I don’t know if there are two Americans. I really don’t know.
But, it’s...it’s dominated by Russians. And there’s a lot of travelling in between the
two, between Moscow and London. I mean Mark Garber, who runs the Russian
office, he’s on the main board of Fleming Family & Partners, and comes over for
bimonthly board meetings, and Roddie actually happens to be in Moscow at the
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moment, and he is there quite often. And various other people, like our finance
director, or whoever, they go out there fairly regularly.
And given that the Russians in the office presumably have spent the bulk of their life if
not under communism, even if they’re younger, with the shadow of it, are they attuned
to this kind of business?
Well, there are three or four of them who I know. I mean obviously I’ve been to
Moscow but, I don’t know most of the people in the office in Moscow, but there are
three or four that I know well, and they’re relatively young, they’re in their thirties,
but they’re, they’re very bright, and obviously see working for a subsidiary of
Fleming Family & Partners as something very exciting and a wonderful opportunity
for them. And they are fantastically hardworking and enthusiastic. And so far, they
appear to be entirely level-headed and responsible people.
And is their ambition to expand things within Russia, or is their ambition to come to
the West?
Oh I think they would like to expand things in Russia.
Mm.
They are... They’re very proud of being Russian. And why not?
And what sort of businesses are coming to the fore, what sort of opportunities are
there, what sectors?
Well it’s...it’s mainly mining and property, those are the two, two sectors that we
focused on.
Mm. And, does the bank have, or what...it’s called a bank still is it?
Well, Roddie calls it the bank, but the one thing it isn’t is a bank. It’s an investment
house. But, he always calls it the bank. (laughs)
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And, does it have offices anywhere else other than...?
No. It doesn’t. And it probably won’t either. But I mean there are... We’re in a very
lucky position. I mean, one thing that hasn’t worked out is that when the Flemings,
Fleming’s was sold, it was sold to Chase, and within a month of the deal being
completed, Chase merged with J P Morgan, and that appears to have been something
that was not the most brilliant of moves. Therefore those who had Fleming shares
ended up with fifty percent in loan notes, which is obviously a very good thing to be
in, because they haven’t devalued like everything else, or most other things, in recent
months or the last two years, and fifty per cent in J P Morgan Chase stock. The Chase
deal was with Chase, and the Chase shares in the same form of J P Morgan Chase
now, were about $55. And the merger with J P Morgan, which we obviously had no
knowledge of at all and did not anticipate, has not been a success, and as of last night
the J P Morgan Chase shares were at 15.95, $15.95, which is some fall. Obviously
shares have been sold on the way down, but never enough. But Fleming Family &
Partners is in a very fortunate position, because, there are obviously wonderful
opportunities around in conditions like the ghastly conditions of the last few months,
and it’s just up to us to identify them. But, I can’t say that, you know, we’re flush
with cash; we are in a position where we can, you know, we can obviously raise
money and, you know, do some interesting deals.
Why hasn’t it worked between Chase and J P Morgan?
I honestly don’t know why it hasn’t worked. I mean the environment has been simply
awful, I mean they’ve been very heavy in, in private equity, and that has obviously,
having shot up systematically, or repeatedly, throughout the 1990s, and that’s
suddenly turned rather sour. I mean everything that they’ve been involved in really,
like all investment banks over the last two years, you know, has turned sour, certainly
compared to the past.
So it’s not to do with two cultures that couldn’t get on.
No.
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It’s to do with conditions.
No I don’t think so at all. Except, I mean they bought Fleming’s, because here was a
wonderful platform in the Far East. Well I mean, you know, the Far East has been
extremely disappointing. I mean it’s extraordinary, I don’t know what the statistics
are, but I would say that thirty years ago the Japanese main equity index was
touching...well it was 39,000, and now it’s 9,000 let’s say in thirty years. I mean
it’s...it’s quite...it’s quite a fall. But over the last couple of years it’s obviously
performed badly, as has Hong Kong and all other major markets. Except Russia.
Russia has done very well.
He says with a smile.
So, yes, with a smile. And with feeling, yes.
Mm. And do you think the Middle East will turn round, or not?
Will the Middle East turn round?
Sorry, the Far East.
The Far East. The Far East, I mean honestly Cathy, I’m not...I’m not, you know,
qualified to say. But if I was investing now from scratch, I would put, I think I’d
certainly put five per cent of the portfolio, maybe ten per cent, in the Japanese, Hong
Kong area.
Mm. Because when we were doing the main body of the City interviews, by the end of
that time the Japanese markets were beginning to go quite seriously wrong, but
nobody I think predicted that they would stay like that.
No. Most people were saying, oh it’s bound to bounce, you know, and it hasn’t.
And why do you think it hasn’t?
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Well I think it’s, you know, it’s the world scene. I mean I don’t think it’s anything
more. I mean, people thought it was over-sold, but, who wants to invest there? I
mean it’s...I think it’s all...it’s the world scene that’s turned sour.
And for the sake of the tape, could you say... The last time we recorded was preSeptember the 11th. So when you say the world at the moment, from the point of view
of the interview and somebody listening in a long future...
Yes.
...could you just fill in what’s happened, both the political events, but how that’s
affected the markets and what’s going on economically.
This is all pretty deep stuff for an enthusiastic amateur. But, when the tragedy of
September the 11th 2001 happened, the FT-SE Index, I mean using that as a yardstick,
was about 5,000, and fell almost immediately to 4,200, and then recovered to 4,700
fairly rapidly. And, I think most people thought that once they got over the shock of
this terrible tragedy, that it was unlikely to happen again, but it could do, but, that
markets would stabilise and probably improve. Since then, I suppose the overriding
influence on all markets has been the appalling behaviour by certain leading
individuals in the large corporate entities in the United States, like Enron. And that
has undermined confidence to a huge degree. You know, people who are investing, I
mean, are always looking over their shoulders now and saying, ‘Well, I mean, who
knows, it could happen at Barclays,’ you know, I mean, which is obviously very
unlikely, but I mean, they...they’ve lost confidence. It’s confidence that has gone.
And, those people with cash you would have thought would be putting a toe in the
water as the market, using the FT-SE Index again, as it’s fallen to 3,600, it’s now
3,800 actually, but, it fell to 3,600, you would have thought that they would be
buying, but, they don’t seem to be. They are in no hurry to buy, nobody seems in any
hurry to buy. So markets are unlikely to bounce for a while. And of course we’ve got
the Iraq situation hanging over the investment scene, in fact hanging over the whole
world, and I think the view is that President Bush is all too potentially gung-ho, and
people are apprehensive as to what might happen there.
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And where do you stand in terms of confidence in the...?
Well as a natural bull, one’s been keeping rather quiet over the last year or so as the
markets have deteriorated. I actually think it’s going to take quite some time for
confidence to come back, and, I feel, and this is very bold stuff, I feel there won’t be a
major war in Iraq. There may be, you know, a few pre-emptive strikes, but I think
that, there won’t be a whole scale war. I mean it just, it just simply cannot happen, I
don’t think. Although I’m sure George Bush would disagree with that. So, I think
that that massive potential problem will drift away a bit, and markets will improve,
but using the FT-SE Index, I think it’s going to be a long time before we go up to
4,500 or 4,700. I think we’ve just got to accept it’s going to be a quietish period of
consolidation. And of course equities over the longer term will out-perform fixed
interest, of course they will do well, but I think it’s going to be a little while before we
get firmly on that trend again.
And do you think there’ll be a property crash, or not?
Well, the property market is quite extraordinary, extraordinarily strong, and that’s
presumably because interest rates are very low and are more likely to go lower than
higher, and certainly remain low for several years to come, and it’s really a safe
haven. And, I think that...I would think that property prices, yes they...they will calm
down, but I think...I think it’s unlikely they’re going to fall much.
Mm. And, have you felt personally at risk because of terrorism at all during this
whole phase, being in London?
I haven’t actually given that any, any thought. You know, I... Well of course
I...that’s not true, I mean of course one’s given it thought, but not any deep thought.
No, I haven’t thought that was...that was likely. That’s probably rather a naïve
attitude to take. No I certainly haven’t thought that.
So in terms of biological weapons or chemical weapons, that’s not something that
lodges in your brain particularly?
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It does a bit, yes.
And when you were at Wellcome, was anything being done to build up preventative
measures if anybody did that to us? Was that ever a consideration?
It was talked about, but, I don’t...I don’t think it was dwelt on too much. What was
that... There was one... I suppose in the...it was talked about much more in the
previous Iraqi war, there was quite a lot of chat then. But... And I’m sure deep
thought as well. But, no, by and large it wasn’t.
So nothing enormous was done?
No. But I mean, just an example of an extraordinary investment situation when I was
at Wellcome, just...just one interesting thing. We bought as you know Smith
Charity’s South Kensington estate of fifty-six acres, and the yield on it was 2.9, and I
don’t know what interest rates were in late ’94 when the deal was done, but, I should
think they were sort of six or seven per cent, something like that. So it was...it was
considered to be quite a bold move to buy residential property, albeit in central
London, yielding 2.9. And, it wasn’t a unanimous decision at the Trust, but they all
went along with it, and... Anyway, we did it. And, the seller, Smith Charity,
reinvested the £243 million, which seemed a lot of money at the time, and, they
obviously invested in a broadly-spread portfolio, and I honestly don’t know the detail
of it. But, that 243 million, I would be very surprised if it’s worth more than 300
million now. And to have fifty-six acres of, of prime residential property in South
Kensington, I mean, who knows what it’s worth now? I mean it’s probably worth, I
would be very surprised if it’s not worth four times what we paid for it. And it’s an
extraordinary thing that there’s Smith Charity, you know, wanting to diversify and
being very sensible in doing that, but in the short term it’s not worked out frightfully
well.
Mm. When... I was going to ask you about that, because, I wondered what it meant
owning that. Presumably you have to have a staff administering it. There must be a
lot of headaches for owning it, or not?
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Yes. And, I can’t remember whether it’s 8,000 people who live on that estate,
something like that. Endless complaints about, you know, the painting of the outside
of the buildings, or, whatever it may be, and people wanting to have another bathroom
or... I mean, just the...I mean, a stream of enquiries. And of course, with the value of
the properties going up so much, obviously rents have gone up as well, and one thing
that we did introduce was freezing rents for anyone who was at the age of eighty at
the previous negotiated level, so they were all protected. But then of course, having
done that, there were so many cases of people of sixty...of seventy-six or seventyseven, you know, and there was one particular person who had been incredibly brave
in some action overseas and had been wounded and had had a pretty miserable time,
and obviously they made an exception for him and he was...he was frozen at some
ludicrously low level, when the fair rents people said it should be three times the
existing rent. Anyway I think we put it up £200 or something like that. But, no there
were endless complaints. And this is what some of the governors at the Wellcome
Trust said, you know, we really can’t invest in something where we know there are
going to be endless high profile complaints. And there were. But, it’s worked out
pretty well.
So who deals with it all, who administers it?
Who administers it? I think Cluttons still administer it for the Wellcome Trust. But
the Wellcome Trust has a very high quality small team who deal with it under
Dominic Cadbury, who I’m sure takes an interest in it, a close interest.
Mm. And, this is a silly jump in a way, but one of the things I also wanted to talk to
you about, when we did the last, the initial set of interviews, we talked a little bit
about this house. But I didn’t get any sense of what it’s like as a community and a
neighbourhood round here. You’ve lived here a while, thirty or so odd years.
Yes.
How many neighbours do you know, and have interaction with?
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Well, I mean, in Tregunter Road itself, I would say I know no more than eight or ten
owners of houses well, and I know no more than three really well. But, I mean from
my point of view, I go off to work, I mean usually about quarter past seven, I mean if
I hadn’t had my knee done, quarter past seven, and I don’t usually get back until that
sort of time, and sometimes, probably twice a week, I don’t come back until much
later. So... And I go away a lot at weekends. So there’s not much scope for
interaction. But actually over the last couple of months I’ve got to know people very
much better because I’ve had to walk twice a day as far as I can round the
neighbourhood, and when you see someone doing their, graduating from crutches to a
stick, and eventually floating over the ground like a natural athlete, it amuses them
and there’s a lot of, you know, chat goes on. So I’ve got to know them better
recently.
Mm. And is it a fairly stable population as far as you know?
It’s...it’s a fairly stable population, and the extraordinary thing is that, you would have
thought these houses were all in pretty good condition, but the work that goes on, you
can just see it now, I mean, there’s always two or three houses in Tregunter Road
being totally redone. And, hopefully that’ll come to an end fairly soon. But, no, there
are... I mean, that side, on my right, are delightful people called Harper, and he’s an
American banker, and on my left are some extraordinarily nice people with charming
children, actually charming children on both sides, Philippe and Zsa Zsa Jarbres[ph],
they’re Lebanese. And, they’re the perfect neighbours. As, I saw Zsa Zsa[ph] in the
street a couple of days ago and she said, ‘Do you know, it’s wonderful that we get on
so well, but we hardly ever see each other,’ you know. Slightly exaggeration, but, it’s
that sort of relationship.
Yes.
[End of F12013 Side A]
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Tape 17 [F12013] Side B (part 32)
.....has brought in another topic, which is your health since I last saw you. Can you just give
us a little summary of that?
(laughs) What a boring subject. When you...when was it that we...?
I think it was March 2001.
March 2001. Well since then, I think... Actually I do, I really do believe that when you get
to sixty-five you do begin to slow up a little bit, everything takes a bit longer to do, and, so
I’ve sort of noticed that a little bit. But, my health has actually improved considerably, due
entirely to Professor Charles Pusey at the Hammersmith, who is one of the leading kidney
people in this country. And, from, you know, a rather tricky situation five years ago, in fact a
potentially rather unpleasant situation...
Can you just say what that was?
Well that was...it was a kidney... I had a thing called nephrotic syndrome, and, I mean it can
be severe or it can be mild. In my case it was fairly severe, and I was losing an enormous
amount of protein, and, I mean, what happens with that is, you get holes in the kidneys, and
the protein just leaks out. And, you’re meant to have a reading of one, and mine was eleven.
And, it’s now down to three, and has been at three for some time, and three is totally
manageable. But, eleven is, is pretty...pretty bad.
So how were you managing to function when you were at a reading of eleven?
Well, I don’t know really. I... I did come back in the afternoon sometimes to have sort of, an
hour and a half sleep, because, I just couldn’t go on otherwise. So... And I used to recharge
at the weekends, I did very little at the weekends, and would have quite a lot of sleep. So,
you know, one kept going, but it was pretty unsatisfactory. But, so many people are worse
off than I was. No, it’s...it’s worked out very well.
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So what happened after all that, when you...you’re at eleven, and then what’s brought you
down to three?
A combination of steroids, I was on sixty milligrams of that a day, and... A thing called
cyclophosphamide, which is a mild chemotherapy. And, things to reduce blood pressure, and
to...all sorts of fine-tuning. So I mean I...I was taking twenty-eight pills a day. And, my hair
thinned quite severely from the great mop I used to have, and it’s not coming back, so, you
know, I’ll end up by being slightly bald I suppose, which was not predicted a few years ago.
No, I think that, it’s...it’s extraordinary that, this fellow said, Charles Pusey said that, ‘We
have to go for the kill on this; the alternatives are, you’re bound to have a, be on dialysis
within three years if we do nothing, and you would be a candidate for a kidney transplant
within five years if we do nothing, and you are too old to have a kidney transplant, and
anyway other people who are younger deserve it much more than you. So we really have no
alternative but to try and knock this on the head.’ And it was unpleasant, combination of
therapy, and it made one very tired and, you know, got severe cramp really every day. So it
took a little bit of managing. But, he kept me on this strong treatment for rather longer than I
hoped, and, this really went on at quite a pace for a year or so. And then it gradually reduced
everything, and the extraordinary thing was that the readings have not just got quite good, but
they’ve actually got as good as you could almost, you know, dare hope.
And how many pills a day do you have to take now?
I am down to taking three pills a day, and, so... No, it’s...it’s... Which almost everyone aged
sixty-eight takes.
And what got you through it all?
I don’t know. I think...I think that, one thing was that, I was determined to leave Wellcome
in, in good shape, leaving Wellcome in good shape, even if I wasn’t. And, there was a
terrific incentive throughout 1999, my last year there, to keep going. And, there was a
slightly unfortunate episode, actually it was on December the 8th, and I retired on December
the 31st ’99 from Wellcome, and... Charles Pusey said, ‘You know, you are on strong
treatment, and you have got to look at yourself every single morning, look at yourself to see
if there’s anything different, you know, swollen ankles, or, you know, a knee going purple, or
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whatever.’ And, I woke up one morning and... And he said, ‘If you do notice anything
different, get in a taxi and come straight to the Hammersmith whatever time of day or night,’
and, ‘because it’s important.’ So, anyway, I woke up, and I hadn’t taken any much exercise
for some time. And my left leg was very stiff, and it was green, purple and yellow, and very
swollen. So I got into a taxi, went up to the Hammersmith, and, there was a...it was quite
early in the morning, and, anyway, one of the people who were on duty, not Charles Pusey
but one of his colleagues, and, she said, ‘Well I think we’ll just go down to the ultrasound
department, I think we’ll just have a, a quick look at you.’ And, oh there were about thirty
people waiting in a queue there. Anyway, I happened to go absolutely straight in to the
appropriate cubicle, and was told to lie down quietly, and they did the ultrasound thing from
the groin down to here. And said, ‘Well there’s something interesting there which I think we
might have to have a bit of a think about. So just lie there peacefully.’ And anyway, three
minutes later a chap came in with a tray of syringes, and said, you know, he’d just like to give
me an injection, because it would be a sensible thing to do. And, anyway when he had done
the injections he said, ‘That’s fine. You’ve got a fairly major blood clot, which is travelling
fairly steadily up to your groin, and therefore if we delayed much longer there would be not
much point in giving you an injection.’ So I was jolly lucky there. But I mean I was terribly
tired I think, endless, you know, wonderful leaving parties and speeches and all that. So, that
was...that was quite a torrid time. But then of course after that, when I was determined to
retire and take it easy, and focus almost entirely on raising money for St Paul’s Cathedral,
what should happen but the Fleming thing came up, and, Robin Fleming said that they had to
have an outside chairman for their new firm if a deal went through, and they thought a deal
would go through, and that I had to be...I was the person. And, I said, ‘Well I’m much too
old, unsuitable, from all points of view.’ He said, ‘Well, we want someone who we know
really well and trust, and, and is...you know, it can’t be a Fleming. We want someone outside
of the family, and you’ve got to do it.’ So, that’s what happened.
And during this year, since I’ve not seen you, how much have you been able to be at
Fleming’s? I mean you sound as though you’ve had a really terrible year.
No, it’s not been a terrible year at all. It’s... I would think, the last three months, last...last
two...last two and a half months, I’ve been there very little. I mean I wasn’t there at all for
six weeks. And... But otherwise, I’ve been there, oh, four days a week. And of course on
the telephone fairly consistently. Roddie Fleming likes to keep in touch with me, for
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whatever reason, and he will ring me on average three times a day. So, you know, I get calls
from all over the world about thrilling situations that might or might not occur. (laughs) No,
it’s terrific fun, I’ve been very very lucky. And... No, I’m very fortunate.
And we’d better just put on tape that you’ve also had a knee operation in the last few months.
Yes, well I had a... (laughs) I had a knee operation, in fact a total knee replacement, and the
reason for that was that, I crushed my left knee riding the Cresta in 1965, and it was put
together again, and...but it’s gradually deteriorated over the years and actually was very
painful for the last five years, every step one took hurt. But, I wasn’t going to do much about
it until I stupidly was playing tennis with a friend who played a rather artistic drop shot which
I went for, and, as a result my knee blew up very quickly to such proportions that I mean I
just had to have something done about it. So I rang up the fellow who had operated on my
shoulder some years back, about seven years ago, Roger Emery, and, who is an absolute ace,
and, I said I’ve got this problem. He said, ‘Well come straight in,’ to St John and St
Elizabeth Hospital near Lord’s, which I did. And, he introduced me to this man Anders
Odgaard, who aspirated it. And it’s an unattractive statistic, but they compared notes, Emery
and Odgaard, after this thing had been aspirated, and they agreed that they had never seen
such volume of fluid taken off one knee in their careers. So, it was pretty, tight as drum and
huge. Anyway, as a result of that, when it had all calmed down it was decided to, you know,
to think about a total knee replacement, and it became pretty obvious, and I had that done in
early August. And now, my titanium [short i], or titanium [long i], I never know which it is,
knee, is absolutely amazing; nine weeks or whatever it is after the operation it’s in, in great
shape, and, it’s just a bit stiff, but otherwise it’s painless and I can walk normally.
And apart from the phone calls keeping you in touch with what extraordinary things Roddie
might have been doing, and the rest of the office, how did you spend your convalescence?
Because it’s not the way you would choose to be is it?
No, it’s not. I was actually here for most of the time. But, four weeks after the operation, I’d
been asked to go and stay with a very great friend of mine, Bobby Wills, who is eight-four,
not a very good eighty-four, and, writes for two days in Scotland, and, Odgaard said, ‘Well,
you know, you can do it, but if you ever swivel or, whatever, twist it, I mean you will actually
be back in the operating theatre, so you’ve got to be incredibly careful.’ Anyway it was a
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marvellous target. So, through that month of recovery, the first two weeks were pretty good
hell, but I was in hospital anyway, and I had an infection, and you know, and lost a lot of
blood, things like that. So it took a little bit of time to get going again. But walking up and
down Tregunter Road and getting on my stationery bicycle in front of a telly, I improved
really fairly quickly. And, it was marvellous having that target. And, so I had to do my
exercises, I just had to get to a state where I could go up to Scotland. So I did that. And, then
I went on Getty business, happened to have a trustees’ meeting in Venice, so, that was six
weeks after the operation. So I went there for a week. So I’ve not had a bad time. Otherwise
I’ve been here.
Were you reading, were you listening to music, were you sleeping?
I was sleeping an awful lot. Watching the sport on the telly, my nephew playing cricket for
Kent, that sort of thing, which was, which was great fun. In actual fact I went to his last
match at Canterbury, after his eighteen years playing for Kent, and, that was a great day,
because, there were 5,000 people there and they made a presentation to him at, in the tea
interval on the balcony, and, I’ve never seen a reception for an amateur cricketer from all
sorts and sizes of people. So that was, that was an emotional family day, but that was another
sort of, thing I was determined to do, go to that particular day, and it was well worthwhile.
The fact that he was out for two didn’t matter too much. (laughs) But... No, it’s mostly here
I’ve... A bit of reading, bit of television, and writing letters to kind people.
Mm. And, what is the Getty business?
What is the Getty business? I’m a trustee of Paul Getty’s main family fund, and, have been
for several years. And the only reason I am is that, my brother Christopher is possibly, well
he’s certainly one of Paul Getty’s closest confidants of the last thirty-five, forty years, and
Christopher being so sort of, steeped in the art world, and, he has a marvellous rapport, the
rapport between Paul Getty and Christopher is amazingly close and good. And, when one of
the older trustees was retiring and they had to find another person, I was a strong candidate
for no other reason than I was Christopher’s brother, and therefore could be trusted to the end
of the earth. So, that’s why I got involved. And it’s been very interesting, because, they’re a
family who have been extremely sensible about their investments, and, comparing what they
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were doing and we were doing at Wellcome and...I mean it was, it was... I think the
experience of both helped me with, with both of them.
How do they compliment each other, how are they different, or the same?
Well they’re...they’re... I mean, the answer is that, that the Wellcome Trust is considered to
be a pretty forward-looking investor, but it is a charity, therefore it’s a little bit more
measured than someone like, you know, the big families. And, the Getty investment policy
has been, I suppose you could say, even more enlightened than the, than the Wellcome one.
They’ve done, they’ve done well.
Mm. And what was Venice like? Where do you have your trustee meetings?
We had our trustee meetings in the Bauer Hotel, and, which I must say was absolutely
wonderful. And, we had the nicest possible time. It was a bit frustrating spending two days,
you know, ensconced discussing, oh, sort of normal trustee matters, although I find that very
stimulating, but, one wanted to be out and about and exploring. But, Venice is a very good
place if you’re trying to recover from a knee operation, there are quite a few cobbles and
things around, and, it’s...it’s...it’s...it’s good. No, we had a lovely time, and the weather was
brilliant.
And what is your Venice, where did you go and where did you eat?
Where did we go and where did we eat? We went to all the obvious places, and...
No no no, tell me really, where did you go?
Well we really walked around. I mean obviously St Mark’s, and... But we walked around,
and we went on a boat round the whole place. And we... One of the people with us, his wife
was celebrating her fiftieth birthday, so, he and his wife and four immediate relations were
having a couple of weeks in Europe. And anyway they were there, and one night they very
sweetly asked four of us from the sort of Getty group to go over to Cipriani for dinner, so that
was...that was perfectly... We had a wonderful evening there, it’s an amazing place. Have
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you ever been there? But you know, I’d never want to go there again, it’s...it’s one of those.
I mean it’s magical to go there once, but it’s...
Why is it magical?
I think it’s magical because I mean, whether it’s the huge swimming pool sort of... But all
beautifully done with gardens and weeping this and weeping that and... And the food is
delicious, and... There’s just, there’s nothing to complain about, absolutely nothing. And
you’re whisked away from the Bauer in the Cipriani boat, and... The whole thing is totally
painless and extraordinarily enjoyable. But it’s an experience I’d love to do once, and I’m so
grateful to Jim Bailey[ph] and his wife for asking me. But, it’s...I wouldn’t necessarily
desperately want to go again.
Did you know Venice well anyway?
Never been there. It’s that extraordinary? To have lived in London for fifty years, and never
to have been to Venice, is... I suppose...I suppose the reason is that, most of my travelling
was, when I was at de Zoete’s or Wellcome, or Gerrards, was, you know, Australia and
America, or the Far East, and therefore closer home didn’t really come in too much.
Did being there on Getty business mean that any buildings were opened up to you in a
different way?
No. No, we... They’re... They’re a family who would far rather not, you know, sort of lean
on that sort of thing. No, we were very much... Typically, you know, wherever you go in the
world, you see someone you know don’t you, and sort of, sitting quietly, Jane Lee[ph] was a
great friend of mine, in St Mark’s Square, you know, sort of, people one hadn’t seen for
fifteen years or something. ‘Oh hello Roger,’ you know. It’s really nice. (laughs)
And who is Jane?
Who is Jane? She’s...she’s a great girlfriend of mine, and has been for several years.
What did you say her surname is?
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Lee[ph].
And what’s her story, what’s her life?
Her story. She...she has been married twice, once for I think seven months, and, when she
was just eighteen, which seems to have been a fair mistake. And then again for thirty-five
years, something like that, to an army officer, a nice chap called Michael Lee[ph], but that,
you know, deteriorated and eventually fell apart about seven years ago. So I’ve known her
very well for five years.
And does she have a...
That’s who you met there.
Right. Does she have a career?
She is a picture restorer by trade, but has not done that recently, and she has been working in
a small little, well actually not that small, property agency set-up doing relocation. So, that’s
what she’s been doing.
And where did you meet?
We met at a dinner party, I suppose six years ago, with Philip Otton, the judge, and his
delightful wife. And, nothing really happened at all for some time, but anyway, then we
bumped into each other again.
So, compared to when we were doing the first set of interviews, that’s quite a big change in
your life. Has it...do you feel life is very different?
Life is more enjoyable, and less complicated. Yes, it’s...it’s a real bonus, and it’s... I mean
having sort of, been very independent for sixty-three years, it’s...it’s nice to... Well I mean
it’s...it’s essential to...as I sweep into my dotage, it’s essential to have, you know, a real
cornerstone around.
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Mm. And, can I just go back into Fleming’s for a bit? Part of the role of the institution is to
look after the Fleming family money.
Yes.
But I think last time we talked, you also said there are clients. I haven’t quite grasped what
this entity does.
Well, the main focus is asset management, and looking after the Fleming family money, and,
we actually have, I think there are 600 different accounts that are either direct family or in
some way connected with the family. And that is the main focus of the business. But beyond
that, we’re obviously looking for new clients, and it’s an extraordinary situation now where
the investment managers that have become household names, whether it be Phillips & Drew
or Schroders or, whoever, they’ve all been through bad patches, and, I think there’s quite a
trend; I can’t say we’ve got a lot of new clients, but I think we might build that business up
pretty substantially over the next year or two, because, there are those who take the view that
the Fleming family have been pretty clever looking after their assets over the years, and what
they’ve set up for themselves, with a particularly good trust services side which has been
going for seventy-five years, you know, if it’s good enough for the Fleming family, it’s
probably good enough for us, particularly when we’re fairly dissatisfied with the people who
have been looking after us. I mean, I think the Fleming family are considered to have been
very clever, very lucky, and they’re very straight. So I think it’s a pretty strong combination,
that.
But, wouldn’t it be possible that if the Fleming family have got money of their own that
they’re managing very well, if you build up a client list as well, might their funds not become
in jeopardy because the whole thing would expand and become something quite other?
Well I mean, we would like to end up... I mean I’m sure Roddie would like to end up with
100 billion under management, like Schroders or, something like that, because he’s
tremendously ambitious, and he’s somewhat younger than me. But, our aim actually is to
have clients with portfolios totalling five billion in five years’ time, as opposed to one billion
now. And who, who knows whether we’ll achieve that figure, or get way beyond it? You
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know, you can’t possibly forecast. But that is the aim. And that is the, that is the core of the
business, the asset management side and the trust services side. And, there are a lot of people
around who... We have a fellow called Geoff Richards who runs the trust services side, has
done for, oh twenty-five years or so, and he knows how to look after and how to handle
people of every generation, and, it’s extraordinary, there are very few people like that about,
and he’s got a good team. And that is a major attraction to people, so we...that we do get
clients who come through the trust services side. You know, there was one of the senior
partners of one of the leading legal firms the other day who wanted to talk to Geoff Richards,
they’d heard that he was very good on trust services, and that was something that they didn’t
do in a major way. Anyway, and, after three conversations they said, ‘Well there’s a family
that we’d like you to see if you would,’ which Geoff Richards did, and of course then it...they
got confidence in Geoff Richards and then started talking to our asset management side and,
you know, and business comes that way. It’s...it...it’ll grow certainly, and, I would hope that
we get to five billion under management in five years’ time, but, I probably won’t be there
then. I may be out to grass.
Through choice?
Yes, I... (laughs) Well, Robin Fleming is, as I said, seventy, exactly. I’m really sixty-eight.
And he says to me that I should certainly go on being chairman until eighty, which is
obviously a frivolous suggestion, because, you know, I understand the family and know a bit
about the business. And... But he would very much like to, you know, retire as a director,
yet come to the office from time to time. And sort of, so it’s a pretty hopeless situation. So
the answer is, he will go on probably being a director I should think for another couple of
years, but always have a desk in our room, in our partners’ room, and I would think that I’ll
go on being chairman for, maybe another two years, and just go before I’m seventy. I think
it’s rather indecent being chairman of something like that, or anything, at the age of seventy.
And, hopefully they’ll be kind enough to let me have a desk there for a while afterwards.
[break in recording]
[*Continuation of F12016 Side B]
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So, at this particular dinner, six months before he disappeared, and I never saw him after that,
I said to him, ‘You know, you were very kind to me in the old says, I mean would, if I could
find it, would £10,000 help solve any financial problems?’ He said, ‘Oh no no no no, no
financial problems. No no, it’s very very kind of you, but oh no no no, I’m fine.’ And he, he
was very calm. But, he said, ‘I’m getting more and more distressed with the way that
Veronica is behaving, not so much as to what she might do that affects her, but when it
affects the children, and I’m devoted to my three children, they’re the most wonderful
children ever created, you know, that I can’t take, and I just don’t know quite how I’m going
to handle that.’ And I obviously reported all this to Ranson when the inquiry happened, the
murder inquiry. But, we don’t really know, well nobody knows what happened, but my own
view, although it’s a terrible thing to say about a friend, I think that he thought his wife was
poisoning the minds of his children, and he hired someone to murder her, and the person he
hired murdered the wrong person.
And where do you think he is?
I think he’s dead, because he was far too inquisitive to not get in touch with one of the sort of,
close friends, or his brother-in-law or whatever. And he was fascinated by his children, and
they’ve all turned out to be marvellous successes in their own different ways. And, he just
couldn’t bear... I mean, he was just too inquisitive. I’m sure he’s dead. In fact I’ve signed
an affidavit to say that I believe he is dead.
And how do you think he might have died?
I think that he got on that ferry.....
[End of F12013 Side B]
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Tape 18 [F12014] Side A (part 33)
.....[inaudible] might have [inaudible] nothing, you know.
But do you think... Sorry, we were just off tape talking briefly about the deal between Chase
and Fleming’s. Do you think the timing was luck, or was it wisdom?
Well, I think it was...I think it was a bit of both. But, as I think you know, they spent two and
a half years preparing to go public, because they really had to go public, they couldn’t... I
mean, there was pressure from some of the bigger shareholders, the investment trusts, and,
saying they really had to go public, and they were preparing to go public, but, exploring all
avenues at the same time. There was a very strong feeling amongst the amateur advisers,
honorary advisers, of which I was lucky enough to be one, that, you know, things seemed to
be bubbling along at such a pace in the 1990s that come the millennium, there was a danger
of a massive hangover, and, really, a sort of psychological hangover, and complete
reassessing of everything. And therefore if they were going to do anything, do a deal with
anyone, they should do it by the end of 1999. And the target date was the autumn of ’99. But
of course, although they spent an enormous amount of time preparing to go public, and
keeping their options to do anything else open, when it came to the autumn of 1999, you
know, the Chase thing I suppose was at a fairly advanced stage. But all these things take
longer than you believe they’re going to. As we know, it wasn’t until about March the 20th
that the deal was actually announced. And the miracle was that there was no hangover after,
immediately after the millennium, and, markets kept going all the way through to the end of
March, about the 25th of March when they peaked. And then as we know, what’s happened
since. So, I mean the deal was done four days before the peak of the market. So that has to
be luck. And the real luck was, the market kept going until the end of March, and didn’t, you
know, sort of, collapse in early January. So that was luck. But the wisdom of, you can’t go
on being lucky forever, I think that was... And it was...it was very brave of Robin Fleming, I
mean you know, when you’ve got your family firm which you’re now leading, well all
intents and purposes leading, he had been chairman and stepped down, but he was still so
involved, but you know, when it’s been going for 127 years, you are...you really don’t want
to be the person to just cut and run. But he did. I think it was a very brave decision, but it
was undoubtedly the right one at the time. Since then of course it’s, well, everyone admires
the timing.
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It’s nicely put. And what’s John’s involvement now?
Craven? He, although he’s younger than me, he’s a funny sort of, father figure really. He is
so wise and so experienced, and has also got a, you know, a very sharp mind, and he’s
a...he’s always looking for a deal. And, he’s the most wonderful foil for Roddie Fleming
actually, because Roddie is a little bit more cavalier than the norm, and, John... He has...he
has enormous respect for John Craven, and they’re very good as a, as a pair.
Well John’s a big risk taker isn’t he.
Well, he is by normal standards, but not by Roddie Fleming’s standards.
Can you give me an example?
What, of...of John being a risk-taker?
No, of Roddie being more of a risk-taker, and something that John might say, not such a good
idea on.
I think, I mean, John has obviously considerable experience of mining situations, and it’s...
When there’s a mining proposition comes up, and it might be putting, say, three companies
together, and, I think that Roddie would be inclined to take the view that, you know, if we
bought X and then put in a bid for Y and Z, that you know, three plus three plus three would
make seventeen, I think John would try and convince him that it would make ten. You know,
it’s that sort of thing. I mean, Roddie is...is...he has his calculator in his hand most of the
time, working out the enormous profits that can be made on certain things. And of course, he
is right from time to time, but sometimes he’s slightly disappointed in what happens in
reality.
You mean they don’t make such big profits, or they actually don’t make a profit at all?
Well, so far they don’t make such big profits.
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Right. And in your role as chairman, are you meant to rein in Roddie, or is that not part of
the job?
Well I was employed, as Robin Fleming said, as the break man, and, as Roddie Fleming
would say, the breaks unfortunately were burnt out after about three months. Well that’s not
true, I am the break man. But, of course I’m more of a, a punter than most people, but
hopefully a controlled one.
So how do you actually exercise any power to break over them? I mean, it must be very
difficult, given that they’re family, and it’s essentially their money, and...
Well yes, but you see, the Fleming family is an extraordinary mixture of different characters.
I mean... I mean, almost without exception they’re delightful people, but they’re cautious
Scots in the main. I mean, Robin Fleming is very cautious; his son is even more cautious,
that’s Philip; Val, actually has a sort of, punting streak underneath the surface, I mean he’ll
be quite bold on investment decisions sometimes, but he’s basically cautious. Adam
Fleming, Roddie’s brother who runs, who is Chairman of Harmony Gold, he’s, he’s very
cautious. Yet Roddie is exactly the opposite. And, you know, he...Roddie’s view of the
world, I mean, OK things are going badly in most places at the moment, therefore there are
wonderful opportunities, but the window’s so terribly small, we’ve got to get in and, you
know, do a deal with X Y and Z. It’s not easy to rein Roddie back in. But he and I have a,
well certainly from my point of view, an excellent relationship, and, we have an awful lot of
laughs, and, I can say to Roddie, and he does accept it, most of the time, ‘Look, you simply
can’t do that.’ And, you know, he’ll wriggle a bit, but... No he’s...he’s...he’s certainly
manageable.
But aren’t you temperamentally more on his side than the other side then, by the sound of it?
Yes. Yes, but not to...not to the enth degree. I mean there are times when I will say to
Roddie, ‘Look we’ve got these five very exciting situations, of which we know one is going
to happen; we think another is bound to happen; and the other three could happen. We
cannot, you know, send three people out to Outer Mongolia to look at another exciting
project at this particular moment, we’ve got too much on our plate, we simply...’ And, ‘No,’
but says, ‘you’ve got to, this could be the best of all,’ you know. And, I can persuade him
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that actually at the moment, no, we’re not going to do it. And if somebody else does it, and
makes a fortune out of it, so be it, but we cannot risk all the, you know, the balls we’re
keeping in the air crashing to the ground.
Mm.
No he’s... We...we have quite lively debates sometimes. But you know, we’ve never ever
had a row. And I’m sure we won’t actually. Because he, he knows that I’m on his side. But,
you know, reputational risk is more important to the Fleming family than losing money.
And within the group that has these debates, is it all to do with approaches to investment or
whatever, or is some of it within a family, or within an office, never mind whether they’re
family things, is it do with personalities and how they interact?
I think it’s a lot to do with personalities. Yes, I mean there’s been, I think, a little bit too
much dialogue that’s involved in persuading cautious members of the family to come to the
party, or... I mean, there’s quite a lot of that has gone on. And when you’re starting any
business, even if all of you have been around for a while, it’s, it’s all new ground, and people
get a little bit, a little bit nervous. And, no, I think we got through that stage; I think there’s
considerable confidence in, in Roddie’s ability to, not only find potentially exciting deals, but
also to attract very good people to work with us, or, yes, with us. He’s been good like that.
Are all the key people men?
Are all the key people men? Our company secretary is called Celia Stone; one of the four
key people in the investment management side is Lucy Sutro[ph]. There are a lot of...not a
lot, because there aren’t a lot of us, but there are a number of bright, marvellous girls there,
well they’re girls by my standards, I mean they’re, you know, they’re...they’re in their
twenties or thirties. And, and you know, they will make more progress. Penny Lovell, she’s
pretty key in the investment management side. There are...yes, I mean it’s dominated by
men, but, it’s not to the exclusion of, of women. And we are... I mean we actually haven’t
even discussed whether someone’s a man or a woman, I mean it’s, you know, whether
they’re... I mean, Penny Lovell[ph], who came to us from Coutts, there were four men who
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were possibles and we chose Penny Lovell because she was going to be better, I mean it’s
just as simple as that.
Mm.
Or we thought she was. And she is.
No Fleming family member who’s very high-powered in it is a girl?
No. There was Lucy Fleming, Christopher Fleming’s eldest daughter, who I was extremely
keen should come and work for us. I don’t know what Lucy is now, twenty-four? But
unfortunately, she thought we were a little bit, you know fuddy-duddy and old-fashioned, like
some twenty-four-year-olds would think. She’s not right about that, but anyway, that’s what
I think she thought. And she was snapped up by Bloomberg, and therefore... I don’t blame
her, Bloomberg was... She’s the sort of girl who is, I mean she’s extremely attractive and
amusing and...and hard-working actually. But I mean she would ring up, or she rang me, and
said, ‘We’re very keen to get Sir Dominic Cadbury to appear on Bloomberg, you know, for
twenty minutes, and talk about his working life and Cadbury’s and the Wellcome Trust. And,
how do you think I do it? Do I ring up his secretary and just test her out?’ So I said, ‘Well,
yes, why not?’ And, ‘Why not do that and just see what happens?’ But anyway, she within,
you know, twenty-four hours came back to me and said, ‘Yes, I talked to Fern Graham[ph]
and she, she’s...you know, two hours later Sir Dominic rang me and he’s going to come
round in ten days’ time.’ I mean she’s that sort of girl. I mean not many people can do that.
But, anyway.
Can you for the tape say what Bloomberg is?
Oh I...I don’t know enough about Bloomberg, but it’s the most wonderful second-by-second
financial service worldwide. And, I mean, when I come back in the evening, from going out
to whatever, the first thing I always do I’m afraid is turn on Bloomberg and find out exactly
what’s been going on in Wall Street, and check the price of J P Morgan Chase, which is
usually, it doesn’t get one off to sleep very well. But, it’s the most comprehensive and,
dreadful expression, user-friendly, service you could come across. You...within...within a
minute I know exactly what’s been going on in the world, in the financial world.
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And, it was never mentioned at all during our main City recordings, when did it come into
existence?
Well I wouldn’t know, but you see... Did I ever talk about Reuters, Reuter screens?
No, not in...not in any detail.
I might have mentioned it. Anyway, it was in 1973 I think that Reuters first introduced their
screens into the City. And, for £7,000 we at Gerrard & National had seven screens for one
year, and they chose a total of eight institutions to have a sort of dummy run on it, and one of
them was Citibank, and we were another. And the business we did with Citibank on those
screens first thing in the morning was quite extraordinary. And, we also did business with the
other people. But that was, I would think that must have been fifteen years ahead of
Bloomberg. I honestly don’t know when Bloomberg did start, but it’s been absolutely key in
my little life for the last twelve years. And as I’m usually a decade behind everyone else, it’s
probably been going for twenty years.
And has the position of Reuters changed as a result?
Well, Reuters are going through a, a very thin patch now aren’t they. I mean, again yesterday
I think there was more bad news from there. I don’t know. I mean obviously John Craven
knows every detail of that, but... Yes, I mean, Reuters has obviously suffered.
Because of Bloomberg rather than its own mistakes?
Because of Bloomberg. And maybe other factors, but certainly because of Bloomberg.
Mm.
I mean Bloomberg is, is wonderful.
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And, just before we lose it, when you were talking about your retirement possibly and
Robin’s, does that mean there’s nothing in anybody’s agreement that is a standard time for
retirement?
No.
It’s completely open.
No.
And might that in a family firm cause some problems?
Not in this one, no, because, all of us will go the day it’s suggested we should.
But Roddie presumably when he gets to that age might not?
(laughs) Well, Roddie, I don’t know, I honestly don’t know. He’s, as you’ve probably
gathered, quite difficult to predict. No, but he’ll be in a pretty strong position financially
presumably by then, we hope. [pause] That won’t be a problem.
Mm.
That won’t be a problem.
OK. And if we could go backwards a bit. I seem to have a gap in the recording. We talked a
lot about the Glaxo Wellcome deal.
Yes.
And the overall problems and the nastiness of various people involved and everything. And
then I took you back, and, we talked about the...
There wasn’t much nastiness. Oh yes there was a bit, yes there was, yes.
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It sounded as though there was.
No there was, what, the Tennant-Robb axis.
Yes.
Yes. Yes.
And then I took you back in a subsequent recording, and we talked about the very first time
you went to lunch with Richard Sykes.
Yes.
And the people you took with you and everything.
Mhm.
Which was on a Monday.
Mm.
And then, on a Wednesday I think, the following Wednesday, you got a call...
The same Wednesday.
...from the Fleming people, saying, could we go for a canter as you described it, discussing
this further.
Yes. Yes.
And then I...for some reason the subject gets changed in that recording. So what I wasn’t
clear about was, after that Monday and Wednesday, how quickly did anything then happen?
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I...I can’t actually remember the dates with absolute certainty, but as we know, it was 1995. I
met Richard Sykes at a small lunch with Fleming people.
And when I asked you before, for some reason you wouldn’t reveal where the lunch was.
I think it was...I think it was at Flemings’ flat.
Right. Do you know why you wouldn’t have revealed it?
No, I was probably being ultra cautious.
Oh right, OK.
Ultra cautious. Try not to say too much about the whole thing. I mean it’s all pretty sensitive
stuff. And as you say, it was...it was quite unhappy for a lot of people, particularly Anthony
Tennant and John Robb. January the 10th I would guess was the day of the lunch, which was
a Monday, and it was the 23rd I think when the deal was announced. Yes, it was over that
weekend, I think.
Which was when you were with Chips Keswick.
Yes I was staying with Chips Keswick.
Right. So it was an incredibly compact time.
It was. And... Yes it was. Because, I can’t remember whether I said it before, but, at the
lunch, it was really just Richard Sykes updating himself on another pharmaceutical company,
which he obviously wasn’t, he was obviously single-mindedly determined to do what he did
do. But anyway, that’s what it, you know, would appear on the surface. I was, well, I mean I
was obviously suspicious to put it mildly. Anyway, at the end of lunch, he said something
like, ‘You say that you have absolutely no intention of selling your holding in Wellcome at
any time in the foreseeable future.’ And, he said, ‘But you would agree that you do have
fiduciary duties.’ So I said, ‘Yes, we do have fiduciary duties.’ And of course he had latched
on to that well before the lunch, and if the bid was high enough we would have absolutely no
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alternative. And, when the discussions started, on the Wednesday I think, I mean, literally
two days afterwards, Lazards got in touch with Fleming’s, and, Fleming’s said... The shares
were creeping up, and when the deal was announced they were at 6.83, on the previous
Friday close, £6.83. And, I think Fleming’s, well they were certainly instructed by me to say
that a figure of the order of £13 a share would be considered to be ‘incontrovertibly high’, I
think that was the expression, and therefore we would have to accept on behalf of our current
and future beneficiaries. And anyway, what happened was, the price negotiated in the end
was £10.25. And as you know, it was a billion pounds of Glaxo Wellcome stock, which
trebled in the next two and a half years, and two and a half billion in cash, which we put into
the equity market. So that was, that was that. I was actually talking to Richard Sykes only a
year ago, which is six years after the event, and, it was probably rather a monstrous thing to
say, I said to him that, ‘I don’t think you would have ever paid more than £11. Am I...am I
sort of, in the same ballpark?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘we would have gone to 10.70, 10.80. We
wouldn’t have gone above 11.’ And, so, I said, ‘Well I threw sixty pence a share down the
drain.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘you could say that, but on the other hand, if you pushed us too hard
and we walked away, the shares might have been back at £6 or £7.’ It was too big a...too big
a risk. We had to accept that.
And given the bad markets at the moment, where would that investment stand now?
Well, in actual fact, the 6.83 compares exactly with the price of Glaxo SmithKline now, and,
it peaked when it was Glaxo Wellcome at £23. And at this particular moment it’s at £13,
having been down to £10.50, about, I suppose about three months ago.
So the investment’s still where it always was?
What do you mean it’s still where it always was?
It’s still with Glaxo Wellcome, whatever that’s become.
No. Well, it’s...yes, I mean the Wellcome Trust have... They had 160, 165 million shares in,
in Glaxo, in Glaxo Wellcome, and then, exactly the same in Glaxo SmithKline. And four
months ago I suppose there was a major buy-back by Glaxo SmithKline of their own shares,
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and the Wellcome Trust, as far as I know, sold back to the company 100 million shares at
£17.85. So, they still have 60 million shares, but that was a good sale.
But, in the current markets, I mean, having done all these interviews, I’m still none the wiser
really. I mean supposing you do that, you sell those shares, what can you then do with that
capital that’s going to be a happy solution?
Well, I mean the ideal thing to have done would have been to sit on the cash until, the day
before yesterday, and started buying some equities, which have perked up a little bit in the
last couple of days. I mean you would diversify, I mean you would...you would spread it
through equities, and maybe some fixed interest. I don’t know what they’ve done with it.
But, whatever they’ve done with it, it was a very good deal in the short term.
So why would SmithKline want to buy their shares?
Well, I honestly don’t know all the background, but they had a lot of cash, and therefore they
would be paying a dividend on fewer shares. I mean it seemed a sensible thing for them to
do.
Right. And you’ve obviously kept in touch with what Wellcome is doing. Has Dominic done
things that would be very different from what you would have done, either positively or
negatively?
I think that... I mean what was essential at the end of ’99, with hindsight, was to have a
chairman who was more measured and more cautious on investment policy, and the vast
distributions of cash that the Wellcome Trust got in 1999 through their investments in private
equity in the United States, and a lot of these distributions came home to roost at that time by
pure chance. And with me going, they...you know, I was really not...well I was obviously
deeply involved, but it was really Dominic who was taking over, and therefore it was much
more important that Dominic’s influence, and the new investment manager actually, a chap
called Gary Steinberg[ph], they wanted to keep a large proportion of that in cash, and they
did. And obviously I would...I supported that in no uncertain terms, although it was against
my nature, but it happened to be the right thing to do. So, they have pursued a more cautious
policy, and I don’t know what the, the investment portfolio of Wellcome is worth now, but I
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would guess it’s pretty close to 10 billion, as opposed to 14.1 when I left. And that sounds
rather bad news, but, it’s rather better than quite a lot of similar institutions.
And that’s to do with the general climate rather than disaster...disaster...?
Oh I don’t think they’ve had any disasters at all. It’s just the general market conditions.
And, it could have been much worse, but they’ve...they’ve been...they’ve been relatively
clever. I would think they’ve quite nicely out-performed their benchmark.
And did Dominic ever ask your advice?
He...he has very clear ideas of his own, and, I think that... I mean I would think he would
be...he would really like to run the whole thing, and...and, OK, I was responsible for the
whole thing, but it was the investment side and the money side that really motivated me and
that’s what I was better at. So I didn’t get too involved in the scientific side. I got quite
involved in projects like Hinxton and the gene sequencing, and that I was deeply involved in.
But... And that was a huge project for us. But, no, I think he’s... I mean, I don’t...you don’t
have to be a scientist to be chairman of a chocolate company, but there’s a touch of science
around in creating different sweets I imagine. But he’s, he’s...he’s fascinated by that side,
and I think he’s able to contribute much more to that side than me. So, I would say that he
looks at the whole thing on a sort of, on a level basis as opposed to focusing on any particular
thing like finance. I don’t think finance and investment actually excites him that much, but
the whole of the Wellcome Trust does.
Mm.
[End of F12014 Side A]
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Tape 18 [F12014] Side B (part 34)
.....following up loose ends on the Robb and...
Can we just, just we just.....
[break in recording]
.....hand over to you again.
Yes. You were asking about, does...does Dominic Cadbury ever consult me. The
straight answer is that he has been incredibly kind in keeping me in touch with
anything that could be of interest to me, and for instance, this new building they’re
putting up, which they’re very kindly going to name after me. I mean you know, he,
at every stage I’m told what’s happening and whether it’s behind schedule, and when
the cornerstone or...not cornerstone, what do you... Foundation stone. When the
foundation stone is going to be laid, and would I come and do it and all this sort of
thing. I mean, he couldn’t have taken more trouble, and as a consultant I receive the
monthly investment report, which of course is compulsive reading for me. And, no,
he’s...he’s...he’s been terribly kind, and, I’ve tried obviously not to bother him at all.
But the sort of thing that he did ask me about in some detail was the pension
arrangements for various individuals who he didn’t know well, and I obviously did.
Why is, you know, so-and-so getting a much more generous pension than another
person, when, you know, they’ve both been in the Trust the same time, and they’ve
both been paid the same, and you know, et cetera, or whatever, you know.
What would the answer to that be?
The answer to that, that actually is, is not what happened. But, something quite close
to that happened, and the reason was that one individual had made a massive
contribution over one aspect which happened to be Hinxton, and, you know, it, it was
only fair that he should be slightly better rewarded.
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And is the building that’s being named after you, is that the Michael Hopkins
building?
Yup.
Gosh. And were you involved in choosing Michael Hopkins?
I was, and as David Weatherall, the, my fellow Governor, former Regius Professor of
Medicine at Oxford, said, ‘The only reason that I was keen on Hopkins was that, I
wanted another Mound Stand at Lord’s built in the Euston Road.’ There was possibly
something in that, but not too much. (laughing) Typical sort of remark by dear
Weatherall.
Have you been a Michael Hopkins fan?
Yes. I mean I...I... Well the first time I really focused on Michael Hopkins was the
Mound Stand at Lord’s, which was actually financed by Paul Getty, and therefore I
was involved a little bit in that, through my brother. And, and I was on the main
committee of the MCC at that time, so you know, I’ve sort of, you know, followed
that. And, therefore looked at, you know, various other buildings he... I honestly
can’t remember where they all were. Norwich, near the Houses of Parliament and
whatever. But, no, I...the presentations we had from, I can’t remember, four or five
architects, I...I just thought he was just our scene, you know, as a person, and would
listen to our, our ideas and...
What’s he like?
What’s he like? He doesn’t listen to our ideas as much as... No I’m sure he listens.
But he’s, he’s very much his own man, and as some people would say, his wife is
terribly important. It’s not just him, it’s her as well. Although she’s very low profile
compared to him. I mean he’s a, he is a delightful, affable, congenial, talented person,
I like him very much.
And what is the brief for the building?
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What is the brief? To have a, an attractive, highly efficient working building.
Instead of the one that’s there now, or in addition?
In addition. That will be the main offices of the Wellcome Trust, and the Wellcome
Building will be more exhibitions, the library and that sort of thing.
So you needed more space, or a more congenial environment?
Well, it’s...it’s an inappropriate building, the Wellcome Building, for modern-day
offices. It’s... You know, the rooms are either too small or too big, because you
either have one window or two, and you actually want one and a quarter windows.
You know, it’s, it’s... And, you must have open-plan offices nowadays, and there was
nothing open-plan at, in the Wellcome Building.
When you say you must, why must you?
Well you’ve got to communicate I think, it’s... I think it’s... Well, I mean, going back
to Fleming’s, we have a partners’ room, there are eight of us there, and you know, it’s
so important I think to have a feel for what everyone is getting up to. And, I suppose
you... When you say, when I say, you must have open-plan nowadays, well we didn’t
in the Wellcome Building and we were successful, but, it was despite the conditions
we worked in. I mean, Ian MacGregor, you know, he was in one cubby-hole, and one
of his key people was in another cubby-hole. It was all pretty unsatisfactory really.
Just let me grab it before I lose it. Who are the eight partners who are in your room
at Fleming’s?
Who are the eight partners? Well, there’s... There’s Robin Fleming, there’s Robin
Renwick, you know, who is Ambassador in Washington, and who is at J P Morgan
Chase, but he’s there quite a bit. There’s Roddie Fleming. John Craven is there from
time to time; David Benson is there a lot. Mark Garber has a desk there, which might
be used by Peter Daresbury. Lord Daresbury, have you ever heard of? He is the
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senior person in hunting in Britain. He is Chairman of Aintree and the Grand
National, all that sort of stuff. And is, I think he’s the most successful amateur jockey
in this country since World War II. I mean he’s pretty determined, and, he’s the sort
of, one of the key people in Roddie’s team. And, Gavin Rochison[ph].
Sorry, what sort of age is he?
Daresbury, I should think fifty-three.
Mm.
And Gavin Rochison[ph], who is our finance director, and he’s moving in there very
shortly, because, he’s... He’s the engine room really. So... Who else is there? I
mean you know, people like Val Fleming might perch there occasionally, you know,
it’s...
And who’s David Benson?
David Benson was Kleinwort’s, as in Kleinwort Benson. And, he is on the board of
British Gas, and various things, and he’s been an investment trust person. He is just a
thoroughly sensible, civilised contributor to our affairs. I mean, you know, whoever
comes in on any subject, I mean, David Benson can chat them up and do what we
want to do with them, you know he...you know, I mean, he’s... He’s just an
admirable, admirable person to have around.
And what sort of age is he?
Sixty-two.
Mm. And as well as being the break person, are you there to go out and hunt for
business and to bring in [inaudible]?
Well I am, but, unfortunately over the last two years since we’ve been going, there’s
been so much to do at Ely House in Dover Street, that one has not been out looking
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for business. I mean I’ve stumbled on bits and pieces, and obviously one always
keeps one’s ear to the ground. But, no, I’ve not been...I’ve not been out marketing.
I’m really too old for that I think.
And, just to pick up on a loose thread before I want to move on to something else. We
talked when we last met about how you still were determined to get John Robb to have
a game of golf with you, and cheer things up a bit. Have you done that?
No.
Have you had any encounters with him?
My only encounter, and I can’t remember whether...that must have been about two
years ago, I wrote to him when he got his knighthood, and he wrote me an
extraordinarily warm and appreciative letter back. But actually I’ve not seen him.
What was he knighted for?
I...well I think it must have been services to the pharmaceutical industry, it must have
been.
And, Anthony Tennant’s had a rather, a spotlight on him over the last few months.
I know.
What’s your feeling about all that? Could you say for the tape what’s happened?
Well, I mean, the collusion between Sotheby’s and Christie’s on fixing commissions
is the sort of thing that might be considered to be fair game in this country, and is
against the law in the United States. And, obviously Anthony Tennant must have
known that it was, you know, unacceptable in the United States. Or maybe he didn’t,
and he just thought it was fair game here, therefore he was very naïve considering
he’s such a, a sort of seasoned and able businessman. It’s...it’s...it’s very sad indeed.
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But I’m extremely surprised that, that he, who has such an immensely impressive
track record, should have, you know, got involved in all that.
And have you seen him?
I saw him actually at some cocktail party about a year ago, and we, you know, had a
sort of friendly chat, but... I mean he’s, he’s the sort of person who is, I mean he was
so angry about...he and John Robb were so angry about the way we handled the Glaxo
thing, but we actually had no alternative, and I mean I think that’s recognised
everywhere now. But, he was so angry, you would have thought that, he might
continue to be very bitter about me in particular, but, I don’t think he is, I think he’s
had other things to worry about.
Mm. And the other big thing I wanted to talk about was the last five years at
Wellcome.
Yup.
Which presumably, does that bring in the gene research you were just talking about,
or...?
Well, the Hinxton thing, I’m not sure whether I’ve talked to you about this before,
but...
No.
I haven’t? Well, what happened was that, one day, and presumably it was 1990, I’d
only been Chairman quite a short time, and, it was a question of whether parts of this
set-up that’s been established at Hinxton should be... I think it was...the Germans
were very keen to set this up. And, it was only one aspect of it. But anyway, they
were very keen to set it up. I think it was at Heidelberg. But anyway, what happened
was, the Medical Research Council came to the Wellcome Trust and said that they
could not afford to set such a thing up in Britain, but they thought it an incredibly
important thing to be established in Britain. And if we, the Wellcome Trust, were
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prepared to put up £50 million, find a site, and get the whole thing created within
three years, we could probably snitch it from under the noses of the Germans. And
the real motivation was one individual, a man called John Sulston, who incidentally
got the Nobel Prize for Medicine last week, Sulston and... We had...we had one
particular dinner actually at the Medical Research Council, there were just five of us I
think, six of us maybe, Bridget Ogilvie who is our Director; Stan Peart who is our
Deputy Chairman and a leading scientist; me; John Sulston; David Plastow as
Chairman of the MRC; and the Director of the MRC, Dai Rees. And, anyway, we
thrashed it all out. And very shortly afterwards we discussed it at length at a
governors’ meeting, for about two hours, and we decided to give it a go, and we said
that we would put up the £50 million. And so, we had to find a site and find a site
very quickly. And we wanted it to be near Cambridge, or in Cambridge, for various
reasons. I mean that was considered to be the right place, scientifically. So, we set
about. Michael Morgan, who has just retired from the Wellcome Trust, was all key in
this, and, he and I, although Bridget Ogilvie was the Director, and of course she was
very much involved, and knew exactly what we were all up to, but, Michael Morgan
and I looked at the eight possibilities, and one was near Addenbrooke’s, one was in
the centre of Cambridge, and, one was at Hinxton Hall, eight and a half miles from
Cambridge. And my brother Christopher, who has had a great influence on my life
really, he has always said, you know, the moment I got to the Wellcome Trust, the
first thing he said, ‘If you’re ever setting up a science park anywhere, do save an
exceptional country house at the same time.’ And, anyway, Hinxton is a, you know,
an exceptional country house by pure chance. And, it seemed idiotic to have
something that might turn out to be something really big in the middle of Cambridge,
so it had to be outside, I mean that was definitely the Bridget Ogilvie, Michael
Morgan, Gibbs view. And, so, we [inaudible] down[???], and Michael Morgan and I
were particularly keen on Hinxton. And Hinxton Hall is a, is a marvellous place. It’s
got fifty-five acres of, you know, of gardens and orchards and whatever. And, in its
grounds, Tube Investments had extremely unattractive laboratories, which they got
planning permission for, and they had these laboratories. And they had moved out,
and, I have a feeling it was owned by Capital & Counties. Anyway, we bought
Hinxton Hall and those fifty odd acres for approximately £3 million, and we set about
establishing this gene set-up with the various components of the European bit and
whatever. I mean it’s quite a complicated set-up. Anyway, the key thing was the
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Sanger Centre, which was going to be the gene sequencing thing. And the Americans
were into gene sequencing a bit, and making progress, and, and Sulston was
considered to be the star, you know, chap to have in this. So, we bought Hinxton.
Michael Morgan and I went to Cold Spring Harbor and spent the day with Jim
Watson, you know, DNA, Jim Watson, James Watson, and, we looked at Cold Spring
Harbor, and how the whole thing was laid out, and that, as people would spot, is, has
got quite an influence on, on Hinxton. And we even put in a lake so there should be
water, and as David Weatherall said, my only contribution to the Wellcome Trust was
to ensure that malaria was introduced into Cambridgeshire. But... (laughs) It...it’s
actually, it looks frightfully good, and of course, me being involved, it’s got a cricket
pitch and a rather nice cricket pitch, and a little pavilion, and things like that. And
this was...we... And we... I can’t remember who the architects were, but anyway, we
chose the best people for whatever, and OK, it was all a pretty expensive exercise, but
we established this set-up, which was going to be a joint venture between the Medical
Research Council and the Wellcome Trust. And anyway, instead of being known as
the, the genome campus, it is, always been known since as the, as the Wellcome Trust
Genome Campus. And, the reason for that was, out of the first £100 million that was
put up for this particular project, 92 million came from the Wellcome Trust and 8
million from the Government. I don’t know how many people work at Hinxton now;
I would guess it’s very close to 1,000, and as you know, there they’ve sequenced a
third of the human genome, and, beat the Americans to it, and... I mean that’s far the
most satisfying thing about my time at the Wellcome Trust. But, very little credit
goes to me. In fact Michael Morgan, at his farewell party last night, he said, ‘You
know, one governor of the Wellcome Trust in the early days of Hinxton said, “You
know, we are likely to spend at least £200 million on Hinxton, and probably much
more. Is there any chance we’re going to end up with a white elephant?”’ And, he
said, ‘Well, we don’t have a white elephant, we have one of the most exciting
institutions in the world.’ Well maybe we do, but you know, as a layman it was a
perfectly reasonable question to ask I thought.
But is it not possible that you would have ended up with a white elephant? It’s a
perfectly likely answer isn’t it?
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I think it...it was definitely possible. But, anyway, it is the most wonderful place.
Too many geese moved into the lake. Otherwise there’s no downside at all.
And how much were you involved as, in terms of knowing what research was coming
out of it? Did you carry on being very involved?
I mean... Gene sequencing is... I mean John Sulston would say it’s, you know, it’s
really relatively simple, but it’s not, it’s...it’s frightfully complicated. And I don’t
begin to understand it. I mean obviously I know what the aims are, and I know
what’s been achieved, but... No, I didn’t get involved in the scientific side. I mean,
you know, it’s all based on the nematode worm, and, you know, it’s got identical
segments in it, and therefore it’s so wonderful for research. Well I mean, I...I...you
know, my knowledge is terribly superficial.
But were you nevertheless aware that things were going quite well?
Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. Oh very much so. Because, we were having to consider
whether we put up another forty million, another thirty million, you know, time and
time again. I mean the money that’s been poured into it is enormous. And as Michael
Morgan was saying the other night, that it was in ’91 that the first big commitment
was made, and that was before we sold that large tranche of shares. So it was quite a
bold decision.
Were there any times when you didn’t give what they were asking for?
No. John Sulston was at this party last night, and, I said to him that, you know,
‘When you had your motor bicycle accident,’ this was about a year after the thing had
been, you know, been established, and you know I mean if anything had happened to
John Sulston, I mean that really would have been a massive disaster. And, so I said,
‘You remember that we told you that we didn’t wish you to ride a motor bicycle ever
again while employed by the Wellcome Trust. You did take notice of that?’ with a
sort of quizzical look. He said, ‘I never took any notice of what any governor of the
Wellcome Trust told me, but my wife told me to stop riding a motor bicycle, so I did.’
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He’s a wonderful man. He is the most self-effacing, brilliant fellow you could ever
wish to meet.
Was it a bad accident?
I think it was pretty... Well I think it was quite bad. I mean it was...you know, it
was... I mean I think... I can’t really remember but I, I think that, you know, one of
his legs was quite badly damaged so he was limping for six weeks or something. But
you know, it was...it was an indication of what could happen.
And do you...have you got any clue as to why he had been so brilliant?
I haven’t. Everyone’s always said he was brilliant. And when he got the Nobel Prize
last week there was a very long article, I think in the, one in the Guardian and one in
the, one in the Daily Mail, you know, sort of, four, six pages, that sort of thing. And
both of them near the end said, ‘Those who seem to know about these things say, the
best work from Sulston is still to come.’ And he’s sixty, as he would say, one of the
photographs in that article, in one of the articles, because I happen to have it in my
pocket because I was going to read it so I pulled it out when we were talking with a
friend of his, and, he said, ‘Ah yes,’ he said, ‘the photograph in front does look like
me, but the one in the side, I mean it looks as though I’m going to take over from
Fidel Castro within weeks.’ And I mean he looks exactly like Castro, beard and
things. But he’s...he’s an amazingly sort of, confident and determined and clearthinking, brilliant scientist. Anyway, we were jolly lucky to have Sulston. It’s only
because of Sulston that the thing’s been the success. And when...when Princess
Royal opened the Sanger Centre, and I obviously did a sort of speech introducing her
and all that, sort of thanking her and all that sort of thing, and Sulston said a few
words, and said, you know, ‘Your Royal Highness, you’ve been so generous in what
you’ve said about this whole set-up, and you’re absolutely right if I may say so in
saying what you said, except one thing. You seem to heap a bit of praise on me. It’s
really so little to do with me; it’s the wonderful people I work with. All I do is just
coordinate things.’ When in actual fact he’s the whole inspiration. He’s...he’s a
wonderful man.
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What was Watson like?
Watson is wonderful. I mean, on that famous day at Cold Spring Harbor – or famous
for Michael Morgan and me, Michael knew him very well, I’d never met him, we
arrived there at nine o’clock, and, I was quite fit in those days, but, you know, at six
o’clock, I mean I could hardly walk another yard. He was absolutely fascinating, and
again, modest, but not to the extent of Sulston. He, he’s just a wonderfully
inspirational fellow, and he’s achieved so much. And of course, he was really
spending the day, not only trying to help us over setting up Hinxton and giving us
ideas and all that sort of thing, but he was also looking for a fairly substantial grant
from the Wellcome Trust. And, I don’t think we ever did enough for Cold Spring
Harbor and Jim Watson, because I think, we owed him a great deal and we only did a
bit for him. But, the...I mean the argument was that, the Burroughs Wellcome Fund
in the United States, which was almost totally funded by us, should do those sort of
things and not the Wellcome Trust. And they certainly did, and they’ve done quite a
lot of funding there. But I always just think we ought to have done more for Watson.
But he...he’s...he’s a wonderful man, and, I don’t know what age he is now, he must
be seventy-three or something like that, but, energetic as ever.
And who is Michael?
Michael Morgan? Michael Morgan worked, has worked at the Wellcome Trust I
think for, I think seventeen years, and he arrived there two years after me. And he is
a, he is a real terrier. He’s a sort of, a perfectionist, he’s a detailed man;
extraordinarily nice wife, talented wife who...I don’t know what, to what degree she’s
a scientist, but she certainly is a scientist. And two charming young daughters. He
lived at Hinxton for the last five years. But, he was marvellous at dealing with the
South Cambridgeshire Council, and...and all the local people. I mean he’s quite
peppery, Michael, from time to time. But, everyone knows his heart is in the right
place. And he’s only had one aim in life, apart from his family, in the last decade, and
that is that Hinxton shouldn’t be a white elephant, and should be one of the most
important institutions in the world. And to think that it’s all been achieved in ten
years is terrific tribute to him.
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And to you.
No, well, no, I don’t know that. (laughs)
[break in recording]
[* Continuation from end of F12013 Side B]
I think John Lucan got on that ferry, and I think he weighted himself down and went
over the side. I mean it’s an extraordinary thing to do, for someone who was so
proud, and in many ways arrogant, but I think that’s what he did. And the reason I
believe that is, when he went in for that power boat race when that boat he built called
White Migrant broke up, and, when he was leading this, the Daily Express race, it
broke up, and, it was marked with a buoy immediately, the insurance people went
there on the Monday, and they couldn’t find any trace of White Migrant. And, as
John said, there are certain parts of the Channel where the currents are so strong right
on the floor of the Channel, that things break up and they can never be traced.
So you think he would have done that because the wrong person was murdered?
Yup.
Mm. And did you ever meet the wife?
I...yes, I knew her well.
What was she like?
Split personality. Very mouse-like on the one hand, and, could get terribly angry and
bitter and...on the other hand. I mean I think that, she’s a very sad figure, and has
hardly seen any of her children in the last fifteen years.
Why didn’t he just divorce her?
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Because, there had been a court case for the custody of the children, which he had
won quite exceptionally, and then there was an appeal, and six months later it was
heard again, and the, one of the doctors lied throughout the case, and won it for
Veronica. So she got custody of the children. And he thought he would never get
custody of the children back, and it was essential to get custody of the children.
And do you know how she was poisoning their minds?
[End of F12014 Side B]
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Tape 19 [F12015] Side A (part 35)
Who else was a key figure during your time at Wellcome?
Well, I asked... I mean I went there as a trustee in February ’83, and as you know we
went public in February ’86. A huge influence on the Wellcome Trust, and it can
never ever be understated, was David Steel. He was so good with the scientists, and
he gave them full rein in debate, and then, he reined them back and got them to focus
on, you know, pretty important financial fundamentals or whatever. But the whole
thing was so good-natured and it was fun and, we had a ball with, with David Steel.
And he took on dear old Alfred Shepperd at the Wellcome Foundation Limited, the
pharmaceutical company, of which we owned a hundred per cent, and who was mean
as...I mean he was so mean over his dividend to the Wellcome Trust. And this, not
only irritated David Steel but David Steel thought this was entirely wrong. And,
David was determined that, that Wellcome Foundation Limited should become a
public company, and that the chairman and the board of that company should be
disciplined by the Pru, the Standard Life or whoever the outside shareholders would
be, and not just by one entity, who was finding it very difficult to persuade Shepperd
to do this that and the other. And, the proof of the pudding is that, when we did go
public, or they went public, in ’86, the dividend was 2.1 pence, and when it was taken
over by Glaxo nine years later it was 25 pence. And, I mean, Shepperd resisted and
resisted going public, but... And we had the desperate situation of two key people in
Wellcome Foundation Limited resigning two months before we actually went public.
And, this was when Shepperd rang up Steel and said, ‘We obviously have to pull,’
and Shepperd said... Sorry, and Steel said, ‘We’re not pulling. And even if two more
people resign, we’re not pulling. We’re going public.’
Why were people so against it?
Well, I think they’d had the cosiest possible life. They’d run their own canoe,
paddled their own canoe, and run their own show, and it was like... The Wellcome
Foundation Limited, although a very good pharmaceutical company, it was really like
a very large department of a university, medical school in a university. It...it didn’t
actually mind too much about its shareholder, you know, it was...it was interested in
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ploughing its profits back into the business. And to a degree that was the right thing
to do, but there comes a limit, you know, and the limit had been reached a few years
before David Steel took this decision. I mean David became Chairman in ’82, and I
joined in February ’83, and it was entirely David, but wholly supported by me, and by
our Director, Peter Williams, and the rest of the governors, that we, we should go
public. I mean, you would see the smile on the face of those scientific governors
when David Steel said, ‘You know, I really do believe that our income could be
doubled or even trebled over the next five years.’ I mean they, the money that they
could spend on medical research, I mean... So... And they were all very much in
favour.
So the two people who resigned, did they really think it would change the course that
you were going to take?
I think that they were just frightfully irritated, and, one was an American... The awful
thing is, I can’t remember who they were. But, one was an American, and he could
see that no longer was he going to just run the American side as he wished and as
Shepperd wished; it was going to be as people like us wished, and the Standard Life
and the Pru. And, he didn’t like that at all, and, he was off. And there was one other
who, who went. But, David Steel rang me almost every Sunday night, in fact every
Sunday night, for a period of about six months, and he’s the most calm and wonderful
fellow, regardless of the circumstances. And anyway, and he never ever sort of, is
worried, or appears to be worried, although he probably is underneath. And one
Sunday night he rang up, he said, ‘You know, I really think I can tell you, I’ve at last
got some really bad news.’ And I said, ‘What on earth’s that?’ And he said, you
know, ‘So-and-so and so-and-so have resigned. They are not prepared to sign the
document, the public document that they will be with the company for the next two
years, and therefore they’ve got to go.’ And, it was typical, ‘At last I’ve got some
really bad news.’ (laughs) Anyway...
How did you react?
How did I react? I was absolutely with him. I mean, Shepperd could jump in the
lake, is what some people would say, that Steel, or to a lesser extent my view was;
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that wasn’t, that wasn’t true. But, we thought it was so much in the interests of the
beneficiaries of the Wellcome Trust that the company should go public, and it really
didn’t matter whether it went public valuing it at a billion, which it was valued at, or
800 million or 1.2 billion; in the longer term, it had to go public to put it under the
disciplines of, you know, the public. And, and that proved to be the case. It didn’t
actually matter that it was...that we sold twenty-one per cent of an asset of a billion,
because, the other seventy-nine per cent became worth so, such a huge figure later on.
But presumably the scientists weren’t arguing about those sorts of details; they were
arguing about the principal.
In fact one of our governors, a wonderful lady, Helen Muir, said after we’d had three
really deep meetings with advisers and goodness knows what, and thrashed the whole
thing out ourselves, and David Steel turned to her and said, ‘Helen, what do you feel
about all this?’ She said, ‘Do you know, I’ve hardly understood a single word anyone
said. As long as I’m not going to end up in prison, I’m prepared to back you all the
way.’ (laughs) And she had no clue at all. Brilliant scientist and a wonderful lady.
I was going to say, I don’t quite understand how the scientists and the investors are
supposed to be able to inhabit the same mental world ever.
Well I think the answer is that, I mean, it sounds incredibly arrogant to say this, but, I
think that the scientists at, amongst the governors at the Wellcome Trust, they had
enormous respect for David Steel, and thanks to David Steel, bringing me along with
the show. When I took over they had, seemed to have total confidence, and, they
didn’t know much about money. One or two of them did, and...but they were proved,
one particular chap, Chris Edwards, was... No no it wasn’t Chris Edwards, it was Roy
Anderson. Roy Anderson was proved wrong in 1992 because he said, ‘This is what I
would do as a scientist. I do understand what’s going on. This is what I would do.’
And this is when we got all that money in 1992, the 2.3 billion. And, then there was
the ERM drama; we got it on July the 27th, and on September the 15th there was this
ghastly ERM drama, and suddenly all equities in the UK went up twenty-five per
cent, and what Anderson was saying, ‘I would...’ He said, ‘Gibbs, you ought
to...you’re tired, you’ve done a great job. Go on holiday, and come back in October
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refreshed for the fray. But in the meantime, put everything on deposit.’ Well of
course that would have been a complete disaster. So when we had our October
governors’ meeting, Anderson said, ‘Could I just say something before the meeting
starts?’ I said, ‘Certainly, of course Roy.’ He said, ‘I’d just like to say, I am never
ever going to pontificate on investment again.’ Which was rather sweet.
So if it was rather like that, were you surprised that any of the scientists actually...
Sorry, the other side of the coin is that, David Steel, me, then Peter Cazelet, David
Cooksey, and there obviously Dominic Cadbury, we all had enormous respect for
those scientists.
Mm. And did that mean though that when the scientists started saying, ‘No, we don’t
want to go public,’ you were quite surprised that they took such a stand? Were you
expecting...?
No no, the scientists were very happy for us to go public. They were very happy for
us to go public because it meant they were going to get more money to spend on
science. No they, they were happy.
So who was...
It was, it was Shepperd at the company, as chairman of the company, who was very
keen not to go public, because he wanted to go on running his show, and as he said, ‘I
can spend the money we make better than the Wellcome Trust.’ He said that to David
Steel and me.
And who were the two who resigned though, weren’t they scientists?
They were scientists, yes. They were scientists who worked at, at...for the company.
The terrible thing is, isn’t it awful, I can’t remember their names.
But were you surprised that they took a stand as, in...?
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I was amazed. I was amazed, because, I mean, if you looked at it from the business
point of view, I mean it was going to become much higher profile, and therefore more
exciting thing to work for, I would have thought, or, or to lead. And, also of course,
there were going to be options for the first time for a lot of the senior people, I mean
thousands of the senior people had options. And, they made a lot of money.
And do you think those two people thought that you would persuade them to stay?
Yes, they thought...I would think they thought it was a bit of a bargaining situation,
and that David Steel was a soft touch. I had no, paid no part in this at all, it was
entirely David Steel. And David Steel said, ‘Well if you wish to go, go.’
And they did?
Yup.
They must have been kicking themselves.
Oh I’m sure, I’m sure. I’m sure.
And, what else should we document about the time at Wellcome? What other
research was going on that was as... I mean obviously nothing as exciting as the
genes.
No.
But what were the other major things that you feel proud of?
I don’t know. I mean there are so many different facets to it. Whether it be, we did a
lot for the younger generation and their...when they get to the stage of their electives
and helping them to travel abroad. I mean we...I must have financed 5,000 young
people every year to travel to China or Australia or America or whatever.
For what purpose?
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What?
For what purpose?
Well, I mean, if you’re going to China, to...there...there’s one girl elective was
comparing Chinese medicine to Western medicine. I mean, it was, you know, it was
for their elective on whatever subject. And, and obviously they went to places which
interested them, and they wanted to learn about that place compared to the UK. The
younger generation... I actually think that, one of the better things we did was, I
would take quite a lot of credit for this, because, scientists hate spending money on
anything that isn’t to do with medical research, I mean they just...they just hate it.
Anyway, we spent £75 million on millennium projects. It was an excuse to... We
must do something for the Millennium, that was my view, because, our founder,
Henry Wellcome, would be appalled if we didn’t. I mean he would really want to
make an impact. We must do something for every geographical area of Great Britain,
and, whether it was, you know, the science projects in Newcastle, or in Bristol, or
whatever. And we did do these. We put up quite a lot of money for quite a lot of
these projects.
That you initiated things, or that you chose things that...?
No, they were being initiated by others. And... I don’t think we initiated anything.
They were initiated by others. And there were so many Millennium projects, even in
the scientific field, and we chose the twelve that we thought were the most important.
But they were done geographically. So, I mean I, I can’t honestly remember what
they all were, but certainly Newcastle and Bristol, Manchester were amongst them.
One of those things that gave me a lot of pleasure, and was very difficult to get
through, was the funding of the Seed Bank building for Kew at Wakehurst Place in
Sussex. The reason for that was that, Kew were going to build this building which
was going to cost £18.4 million, and we put up 9.2, and, the Lottery I think put up the
other 9.2. Anyway, the idea was that the freezing... When... You can freeze things
nowadays that keep them in pristine condition for at least 200 years, and therefore, the
idea was to save as many plants as one could save. I mean even in this country, you
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know, ten per cent of...sorry, is it ten per cent? I think, of, of plant life that existed a
hundred years ago doesn’t exist now, and, and obviously in the arid parts of the world
I mean it’s far worse. And what you do as a precaution is, you collect the seeds of
these plants, and you freeze them for ten years, then take out a sample, put them in the
ground, and they grow, and so you know that the whole thing’s working, and you, you
keep an eye on it that way. Anyway, I thought that Henry Wellcome would want to
play a major part in this project. It was an £80 million project overall, and that was
funding people all over the world collecting seeds of rare plants. And, anyway, I tried
so hard to get 18.4 million out of the Wellcome Trust, but, anyway, we did half in the
end.
What were the arguments against?
The arguments against, we need it more, the money is needed more for medical
research, and medical research is what we are all about, and that is what Henry
Wellcome was all about in his will. But I did say that, you know, that if anyone
would like to read the will again, on page 28 you would find one little paragraph, and
it is a little paragraph, saying, ‘and of all the other things of which I am gratefully
interested, the local community is one, but of course plant life is another.’ So, it was
just that little hook that was essential. Anyway that gave me, that gave me a lot of
pleasure, because that was, that was my, my thing really. Oh there are so many
things. But the investment side of course was...I mean the South Kensington estate
was one thing, but the private equity in the United States was...was a real bonanza. I
mean I would imagine...
I don’t really understand the nuances of that, can you...
Well, this is really, I mean, let’s call it venture capital as opposed to private equity. I
mean give you one example. We, when I was going to be a trustee of the Getty
family fund, I looked at the investment portfolio before I became a trustee, and I was
amazed to find that they had fifty different investments in the United States in funds.
So, I said, ‘Who’s responsible for this?’ And they said Jim Bailey[ph] of Cambridge
Associates in Boston. So when he was next in London I had breakfast with him at the
Stafford Hotel, and, by the end of breakfast he convinced me that venture capital, or
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private equity in the United States, was something that we just simply had to have a
stake in. So we put £100 million, $150 million I think it was, but it was £100 million
anyway, into private equity in the United States, in ’93, and David Cooksey was
going to... And it’s all done through Cambridge Associates. David Cooksey was
becoming a governor, and he has a firm in this country called Advent which is venture
capital, and when he looked at our portfolio, this was about nine months or a year
before he became a trustee, he said, ‘I’m absolutely amazed that you’ve got this
investment in private equity in the United States.’ So, I gave him the reasons, and
he... I said, ‘Well do you think it’s a good idea?’ He said, ‘Good idea?’ He said, ‘It’s
a brilliant idea, and...but what you haven’t done, you’ve hardly scratched the surface.’
Anyway, we put another £400 million in, in ’94. And I think I’m right in saying that
the Wellcome Trust took £2 billion worth of profits out in ’99, in the first quarter of
2000. And, I mean it’s been a sensational success. But I’ll give you an example.
There’s a fund called Benchmark, and they raise money, from all these funds, raise
money from time to time. So you have Benchmark 1, Benchmark 2, up to Benchmark
8 or something. And, they would raise, whether it’s £100 million – $100 million or
$500 million, and some have raised as much as $2 billion, at a go. And they have
investors, whether it’s large charities or, or private individuals or whoever, investing
in these funds, and, these funds then use that money to make other investments that
they believe have got a very exciting future. Benchmark bought twenty per cent of
something called eBay. Have you ever heard of eBay?
Yes I have.
Well it’s, it’s auctioneering on the Internet. And eBay, we had $5 million in
Benchmark 3 I think it was, out of the $100 million. So we had five per cent. And,
they had twenty per cent of eBay. So we had, you know, one per cent of eBay in
effect. Anyway, eBay put up the most extraordinary performance by going from $1 to
$380 in something like eighteen months. And we sold... You know... Then you get
distributions, when they sell some of the shares, the fund sells some of the shares,
then you get, that’s paid out to us, you know, the investors. And we had the most
amazing distribution. I don’t know, we made £120 million out of our $5 million you
know. But, there were quite a lot of situations not quite as extreme as that. There was
another one called Akamai, which went from...I mean we paid the equivalent of $5 for
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it and it went to $300. It’s now standing at, you know, $1. But, it was, it was a
wonderful run anyway, in venture capital.
Does that mean the Wellcome is very vulnerable to anything that might happen in
America, if there’s a war or whatever?
No. I mean, they’ve...I think they’ve sort of, geared back a bit, and... And they’re in
some wonderful funds which are still doing well, although the returns are obviously
minute compared to the palmy days of the late Nineties. But, there are returns.
And when you get returns of the kind of scale you’re talking about, how much of that
goes straight into research and how much is reinvested? Is there a...?
No. Well it all goes back into the investment portfolio, and...it all goes back into the
investment portfolio, and, then, we work out, you know, what we’re prepared to spend
on medical research, or, or what we’re prepared to spend in any one particular year.
But what we did was, at the Wellcome Trust, we never spent any capital up until
1998, and then we did spend some capital doing joint ventures with the Government
and that sort of thing. But, we had an income of 300 million and we were spending
600 million. But we built up such an enormous capital base. And, the Charity
Commission pressurised and pressurised, me in particular, but certainly the Trust as a
whole, that we must spend more money now, because, today we are closer to the
death of our founder than we will be in the future, and therefore it’s this generation,
the generation nearest to the founder’s death, that should, you know, have a fair
reward out of this trust. And we mustn’t just hoard up things for future generations.
Well our argument was that, well that’s fine on the face of it, but we are actually
trying to create a world class and...an institution, not only of world class, but one of,
that’s so substantial that it’s recognised throughout the world. And, then we’re
prepared to spend a bit of capital, but not until then. And we held out against the
Charity Commissioners until 1998. And actually they’d given up the unequal struggle
and we did it voluntarily, because, we wanted...there was a huge scheme with the
Government when they put up 700 million and we put up 400 million I think it was.
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And did the Charity Commission have any power over you, or it was just able to
recommend?
They, they could... I mean they obviously had, they had a go at me on so many
occasions about our aggressive investment policy. They could have got me sacked, or
got rid of any governor, or got rid of the director, if they’d really set about it. I mean,
while the...in the money markets Gerrard & National was really overseen, and
controlled, by the Bank of England; it’s the same with the charity and the Charity
Commissioners. But they wouldn’t have done that unless it was a fairly extreme case
I think.
So you didn’t feel vulnerable?
No, I didn’t feel threatened in any way at all. And, we enjoyed our debates with the
Charity Commissioners, although we found it fairly frustrating. But...
And what was the venture with the Government?
What...?
Was the venture with the Government?
That this was improving the infrastructure in the universities, and...in the medical
schools in the universities. Because, the conditions in so many of them were so
appalling. Appalling’s too strong a word. I mean, they were...the facilities, I mean
the buildings they worked in, and the labs they had, were old-fashioned and, you
know, and scruffy, and... And, it was getting to the point where it was quite likely
that, you know, really talented people might say to themselves, ‘Well look, I really
can’t stand this any longer, I’m off.’ And, so we made a, a pre-emptive strike as they
say. And, one has to say that, Gordon Brown was as cooperative and... Well it was in
his interest to squeeze three or four hundred million out of the charitable sector. And
they were going to have to do something anyway, the Government. But it was, it was
a very good partnership actually between the Government and the Wellcome Trust,
and it worked very well. And that sort of thing I don’t think would have happened
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under the Tories. I think that, the Tories were, you know, would take the view they
were a little bit above the charitable world, and they’re really not of any great
consequence.
What was Gordon Brown like?
Gordon Brown, I only had one meeting with him, and it went on for an hour and a
half. And it was Mike Dexter, our director, and me, Gordon Brown and someone
from the Treasury. I thought he was absolutely brilliant. I mean he could not have
played his cards better with us.
Can you be more particular?
I mean he just didn’t push us too far; he was appreciative and... I mean he said all the
right things that, you know, this was obviously a forerunner of many more deals we
can do together. I mean he was talking his own book the whole way. But he was... It
was just incredibly enjoyable, and stimulating. And, it was...it was interesting
actually, when this was announced, I went to the...it was announced at the DTI, and
Margaret Beckett was the Minister in charge, and I was absolutely amazed. I mean I
am...well I was a diehard Tory; I’m now...I always say I’m a floating voter, but I’m
not sure I am, but anyway. And I had...I never had a great respect for Margaret
Beckett, I didn’t really sort of, get motivated by her at all. Anyway, she arrived, and
that is... Dexter obviously was on the top table with Margaret Beckett and whoever,
and I was in the front row of the, of the stalls, because I wasn’t going to say anything
about science. And, anyway, Margaret Beckett said to the eighty people who were
there, members of the press, she opened up and said that, you know, ‘It’s very good to
see you all here today, and thank you so much for coming, and what a strong turnout.
It is an important day, but I would like to make one thing absolutely clear. Without
the vision and generosity of the Wellcome Trust, none of us would be here today.’
Now that was a pretty magnanimous thing to say, I thought. I was amazed. But the
Government were, OK they twisted and turned at various stages over various other
things, not that but over other things later on, so I’m told, and have not always been
that easy to do business with, but, having said that, they’ve been pretty good overall I
think.
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Mm.
[End of F12015 Side A]
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Tape 19 [F12015] Side B (part 36)
.....you said in a past recording was that Wellcome was always very anxious not to put
money into things that the Government ought to be paying for, and not to give the
Government the sort of route of being able to cut down and cut down and cut down.
Not to let the Government off the hook.
And, I mean how does that balance with an initiative like the one you’ve just
described?
I think we would say if...I mean, if I was at the Wellcome Trust, we would say that we
were not letting the Government off the hook. We putting up three or four hundred
million to attract 700 million from the Government was, you know, leveraging money
out of the Government. And therefore, that was great. You can of course look at it
from the other point of view, that they were squeezing 400 million out of us. But, no,
we were comfortable with that, quite comfortable with that. But, not letting the
Government off the hook was one of the sort of firm planks of the imaginary mission
statement of the Wellcome Trust.
Mm. And how do you feel Labour’s done overall?
How has Labour done overall? Well they’ve been more sympathetic to the charitable
world than the Tories. [pause] I mean they’ve been much more plausible than the
Tories were under the latter days of, certainly of John Major. I think, I think they’ve
done reasonably well. I think that Mr Blair will go down in history as one of the most
talented lightweights ever to be Prime Minister of this country. I think he’s, I really
think he’s such a lightweight it’s not true, but he’s so good at putting it over. He’s an
actor. He’s an actor. I think that the general public actually do worry that Cherie is
too much of an influence. I’m...I’m a fan of Gordon Brown, not just because I had
one amazingly interesting hour and a half with him, but I do think Gordon Brown’s
pretty good. Who else is there that we think is good or, or bad? I don’t really focus
on the others too much. But... It’s...it’s a one-and-a-half-man band I think really.
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Would you ever vote for Labour?
Yes, yes I would vote for Labour. I’d absolutely hate doing it, but I think that... I
mean unless the Tories get their act together... The one person, I think the one party
I’d never vote for is the Liberal Democrats.
Why?
Well, I actually don’t think Kennedy’s a, a great leader. I think he’s done an amazing
job to get fifty-eight seats or whatever it was. I mean I just simply couldn’t believe
that. I mean if I was a betting man, I’d have sold Lib Dem seats at forty-eight or
whatever it was till the cows come home, but luckily I didn’t get round to doing it.
But, he did very well in the General Election, very well, but I just think he’s too much
in Labour’s pocket, and, I don’t think they... I don’t think they’ve got anything really
exciting to offer. It’s a sort of, fudge between the Tories and the Labour Party.
And what did you feel about the recent Conservative Conference?
I thought it was much more successful than it might have been. I thought it was
actually destined to be a complete shambles. (laughs) I mean the build-up was not
too hot, was it? But the ‘quiet man’ did much better than he might have done. I...I
can’t say I think he’s a good speaker, he’s not, but I think he did, he did pretty well in
his sort of summing-up speech. I liked the Times, the front page of the Times, with
‘the quiet man’, and you had Iain Duncan Smith and himself...and his wife, and, then
you had the film, Maureen O’Hara and John Wayne on...did you see that? It was a
very nice front page of the Times today. And, I think the sort of scene probably was, I
haven’t read it, but it was, ‘Which quiet man overall will have made the greatest
impact?’ I should think probably the film. But... He’s a very good man, Iain Duncan
Smith, but he’s not a, he’s not an inspirer, this is the trouble.
Would you vote for him?
Well I, either...I mean I’m more likely to vote for him without any enthusiasm than do
anything else. I would not vote for the Liberal Democrats unless they change their
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spots quite a lot. And I’d find it frightfully difficult to vote for... I...I couldn’t vote
for Blair, I just simply couldn’t. But I could vote for Gordon Brown. And I think
what might well happen is that Blair... I mean, if the Iraq war does not happen, which
we all pray it won’t, I think Blair might be seen to have been overplaying his hand
and been too much in Bush’s pocket, and he is the wafer-thin fellow that some people
think he is, and, he’s been around and we’ve had that slightly supercilious smile for
too long, and, it’s time for a change. And it may be that he steps down, and although
the last person he’d want to take over from him is Gordon Brown, it will be Gordon
Brown. And, I might vote for Gordon Brown.
Have you ever voted for any party other than one so far?
Yes, Independents in local elections. (laughs)
And the party you vote for [inaudible]?
Oh no, I’ve voted Liberal. I think I voted Liberal when Jo Grimond was... I, I
thought Jo Grimond was just my man.
Why?
I don’t know. I thought he had such style, he was sort of, a nice fellow, and, he...I’m
sure he got things totally wrong over the TSR2 or what... I can’t remember. But, I
just, I had confidence in him. I liked having him around.
And just for the record, can we just name the party you normally vote for?
You can. It is the Tory Party, and, I did with enormous enthusiasm in the Thatcher
days, and, also with quite a lot of enthusiasm I have to say for John Major in ’92 was
it? Yes. But not in ’97.
And did you have anything directly to do with either of them?
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No. I mean I know...I know John Major more through... Well, one very close friend
of John Major’s was Colin Cowdrey, who I was very close to, and I gave the address
at his funeral, and wrote a prayer which I read out at his, at his memorial service. I
mean I, he was a very close friend of mine. And Cowdrey used to see quite a lot of
Major, and I saw a bit of him with Cowdrey, you know, just having chats about,
mainly about competitive sport in schools. And, no, I saw John Major from time to
time. Blair I have never spoken to except just to shake hands, you know.
I know Colin Cowdrey cropped up in our first set of recordings, but I don’t think we
talked about him as a personality really. Can you tell me a little about him as a
friend?
He, he was... Yes I think it was Johnny Woodcock, who was cricket correspondent of
the Times, and it’s on the, I think the service sheet for the memorial service at
Westminster Abbey, it said, I think it said, ‘Some life, some cover drive, some friend.’
And he had an incredibly full life. He made the best of his cricketing ability, and
obviously became a world class cricketer. But also a world class sportsman in the
meaning of, that he was the most delightful, caring human being. He always was
worrying, he was always worrying about other people, and whether X was getting on
with Y, or whatever it was. You know, I mean he was...he was always trying to help,
and he was the most...he was the most marvellous human being. His real problem
was that, if he had a problem, was that he was indecisive. He couldn’t make up his
mind, over really quite simple things. It was odd. Although he was terrific company,
and, you know, would organise things well, and... And, I mean, his speech in the
House of Lords on how important competitive sport was in schools was terrific stuff.
I mean, if he got a bee in his bonnet he’d really go for it. So it’s unfair to say that he
was indecisive, but he was indecisive. I mean as someone once said, that you know,
on a cricketing tour, I mean I can’t remember which cricketer it was, someone like
Tom Graveney who was a great friend of his, said, you know, ‘Colin was the most
wonderful person to tour Australia with, or tour anywhere with, he was such fun. But
oh, I wish he would be quicker at making his mind up whether he wanted to have All
Bran or Cornflakes for breakfast,’ you know, I mean it’s...you know.
But he was obviously good at cricketing decisions.
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He was very good at that.
Mm. And I can’t remember, how did you get to know him?
I got to know him, well, for two reasons. One because... Well no, I got to know him
first through the Norfolk daughters, because he married Anne, the eldest, Anne
Herries, who is a racehorse trainer, and I knew them, and, I was a trustee of theirs.
And, I got to know him first there. But then very quickly he became a local director
of Barclays, and, his office was, you know, fifty yards from mine, so, I used to see
quite a bit of him then. And we played golf together, we had the odd holiday in
Tobago together, playing golf, and... He became an extremely close friend. And,
when I moved in here, I had a wonderful housekeeper, wonderful cockney who I am
delighted to say is still extremely fit, aged eighty-six, Lena Cross, and, she...she is a
wonderful cockney. And anyway, there’s one bedroom up there which is always, was
always known by her as Mr Cowdrey’s room, you know, it’s absolutely wonderful.
(laughs)
How did you come by her?
I came by her because, when I was in Milner Street, you know, off Cadogan Gardens,
next door to the Australian Pub was my first house, which I bought for £19,200 in
1965, freehold, anyway, I got to know my neighbours there, rather better than I get to
now my neighbours in Tregunter Road. And, there was a very nice lady who lived
opposite, and I used to sort of, talk to her in the street, and sometimes she was with
Lena, who was her revered daily. And, anyway, Lena knocked on my door one
evening and said, ‘I’m terribly sorry but could I have a quick word?’ And she said
she’s being turned out of Cloisters, Chelsea Cloisters in six months’ time, and she had
gathered I might have a spare room; would I ever consider employing her and she
having my spare room? Well, we signed up immediately, and... Mrs Haines[ph] she
was called, opposite. Frightfully nice woman. She was so angry. She said, ‘How
dare you pinch my friend Lena.’ So anyway, the arrangement was, that she would
work for Mrs Haines[ph] and also for me, but live with me. And then of course, what
didn’t suit Mrs Haines[ph], I moved to Tregunter Road and Lena came with me.
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Did you not have any reservations about having somebody living in your house?
No, not with Lena. I...I now do you see, it’s an extraordinary thing. I just like to be
on my own and paddle my canoe, as opposed to having someone fussing around.
Have you got somebody living in as a housekeeper now?
No. I’ve got a marvellous daily called Chris, who is a Brazilian, and, she’s absolutely
ideal. She comes in at quarter to eight or whatever it is, and stays for five hours. So
if I’m here, she’d do my breakfast; if I’m not... And when I go to Fleming’s, I go to,
it sounds pretty unexciting, the Europa Café at sort of half past seven, and it’s the
same old gang who have breakfast there, have exactly the same thing every morning,
and, we all chat away or read the paper or whatever it is. And I really enjoy doing
that actually.
You mean they’re people who use the same place to eat, or people you know
otherwise?
I don’t know... Well I know one of them otherwise, but... There’s a marvellous man
called Peskett[ph] who’s ninety-two ands till active as a tailor, he’s always wanting to
make a dinner jacket for me or something.
Mm. And, when you were at Wellcome, did you have anything to do with GM food,
did that come into the area?
No that didn’t come, that didn’t come across at all.
And did it come, did the food industry come into the equation at all?
No. Not through me. I’m sure it did with the scientists, but it wasn’t...it wasn’t, you
know, high profile in any way.
What about the Eden Project?
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Ah, the Eden Project. I don’t think Wellcome have done anything about the Eden
Project yet, but Dominic Cadbury I’m sure has been there. I’ve been there since I left
Wellcome. I mean that, that I think is an amazing thing. And old Smit is quite a,
quite a motivator isn’t he.
So they never asked you for any money?
They did just before, just before I left. And, it was too late for me to do anything
about it.
Mm.
The two last grants actually, major grants, at my last meeting were £10 million to the
Darwin Centre, which I was extremely keen on, and £2½ million to the Roundhouse.
Do you know the Roundhouse in Camden? Which used to be a railway terminal.
Oh the theatre?
And it’s...yes, that’s it. And Torquil Norman, who’s a great mate of mine. And he
made a lot of money out of Bluebird Toys which he created. Do you remember the,
there’s a teapot that became terribly famous that children have, I don’t know why it
was so wonderful, but anyway, he... He created toys, and he made a lot of money.
Anyway, and he put some of it into a family charity. And anyway one day he came
across the Roundhouse and he said to his children, ‘Look, I think we’ll give this one a
real go. We’ll put the whole lot into the Roundhouse, buying it and setting the thing
up, and turning it into a really special community centre, with so many different
facilities, for the lesser, less fortunate people in the Camden area.’ And, anyway they
got £2½ million from the Wellcome Trust. Now that was a very, that was a very odd
one for the Wellcome Trust to do, but I have been banging on for ever, saying, we
have got to do something for the community. And anyway, by pure chance this came
to fruition at my last meeting, and, the scientists who are involved at Wellcome with
the Roundhouse, they believed that, you know, sort of, children’s scientific projects
could be set up there, and they got involved. So that was good.
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Have you stayed involved, have you...?
Roundhouse? Well, I’ve sort of introduced them to a few people, and, they got a bit
of money here and there.
Mm. And what about the Wellcome Wing at the Science Museum?
Well, of course that is, that is wonderful. And... Yes, the Wellcome Wing at the
Science Museum. I mean I think it has been a greater success than...I don’t know the
figures of attendance and things like that, but a greater success than anyone thought it
would be. And of course, the other bit of that was, there was then going to be a gap,
and then a building on Queen’s Gate which is for, is it the British Society that is going
to have it? And anyway, it’s really a base for furthering the public’s understanding of
science, and, so it’s quite a, quite a set-up. And I think Wolfson, I would think
Leonard Wolfson and Wellcome have sort of co-funded that. But... Have you been to
the Wellcome Wing?
Mm.
What did you think of it?
Oh, fabulous.
It is isn’t it. I think it’s wonderful.
But you okayed it, you...it was in your time?
Yes, I was... I mean, of the items at the Science Museum, certainly three or four years
ago, the figures were, either on display or in store in Blythe Road, they had 200,000
items, and that obviously includes traction engines and whatever. But 112,000 of
those items were Henry Wellcome’s. So you’re comparing a traction engine to a
porcelain jug, whatever. So, there was, a lot of this was handed over in about 1977 to
the Science Museum on long-term loan, in fact I think almost all of it was. And, so...
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We had a committee, of which I was chairman, purely because I was Chairman of the
Wellcome Trust, the Wellcome Trust Science Museum Committee, which met...I
always wanted it to meet every six months, which it did for a while but I think it’s
probably once a year now. And, Neil Cozens[ph], who would get money out of
anyone, who is now English Heritage but was the director of the Science Museum,
said at one of these meetings, ‘I just think, you know, it’s very sad that we still have
forty-two packing cases of Wellcome memorabilia that has never even been opened. I
mean, I really feel, you know, we do need to deal with that. And the only way to deal
with it is to get four young talented people who would be interested in such a scheme
to work for two years and sort it all out and get it all catalogued.’ So we put up
£200,000 for that project, and then of course, I mean I got to know him very well, and
then of course he had a quiet word one evening over supper and said, ‘You know, the
ideal thing would be to have a modern wing, and we’ve got the land, but we haven’t
got the money, we need £50 million.’ And, so I said, ‘Well, you can imagine I carry
very little weight at the Wellcome Trust, because it’s dominated by these scientific
governors, but I mean, what are the chances of it being called the Wellcome Building,
or the Wellcome Wing or the Wellcome whatever?’ And he said, ‘There’s every
chance, you know, provided you can put up, you know, a very substantial sum of
money.’ Anyway there was a wonderful negotiation with Jacob Rothschild when he
was running the Heritage Lottery Fund, and, they had indicated they might put up
half, twenty-five million. So, we said... Actually the scientific governors were very
supportive. They immediately said, ‘Well look, let’s...we’ll put up fifty[???].’ I
suggested fifteen and they said, ‘Fine, let’s put up fifteen.’ Anyway, after the
negotiation with Jacob Rothschild it was 23½-16½; you know, you always lose when
debating things with Jacob Rothschild. And I think in the end probably Wellcome put
up 20 million. So, it was rather wonderful that that happened, I think that was good.
Mm. And when we talked before, the other thing Jacob was talking to you about was
Darwin’s house.
I don’t know what happened about that. Oh, oh Down House.
Which was where Darwin...
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Yes.
Yes.
Yes, I... Yes, I don’t...I’m not sure Jacob was involved. He probably was involved
with that. Certainly Virginia Bottomley was. And what happened there was, and
again this is my brother Christopher, the whole thing on this, regarding Wellcome, it
was his idea, the Royal College of Surgeons had the, I can’t remember whether it had
a long lease or what it was, on Down House and the farm. Anyway, they were short
of cash, and they hadn’t got the funds to maintain it, and everything else. So, we paid
them three-quarters of a million pounds, and, so that English Heritage should take
over Down House, the farm and everything else. It was actually, for odd reasons it
was 705,000. Anyway that gave the Royal College of Surgeons a bit of money, and
let them off the hook in a rather difficult position. But actually the assets were
probably worth 3 million. But they could never be sold, so they were really worth
nothing to the Royal College of Surgeons. So it was Christopher put this scheme to
me, and it, it worked out very well. And I think Virginia Bottomley got some funds
injected. That may have been through Jacob Rothschild.
Mm. And is Christopher good at investments?
Hopeless. Absolutely hopeless. But, of course, what he has done is bought a lot of
very good things relatively cheap over the years, so... Sorry, I will rephrase that. At
traditional investment, hopeless; but at buying works of art, as shrewd as most.
So, when he’s involved as a trustee of the Getty, he’s not steering...?
He actually isn’t a trustee of the thing I’m a trustee of.
Oh right.
He is a trustee of the J Paul Getty Junior Charitable Trust, which is Paul Getty’s
charity, which gives away 1½ million, 1¾ million a year. But, he... I mean if the
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Mapa Mundi has got to be saved, that is the sort of thing Christopher looks into on
behalf of Paul Getty.
And has he put other things...did he put other things to do with Wellcome to you
during your time there? Are there other things we should document like that?
I don’t think so. I think, I’d give him a lot of credit for Down House and Hinxton. I
mean he didn’t say specifically Hinxton, but, you know... I mean, all us five brothers
and sister are very close, and we talk about endless things that we’re interested in,
and... But he has been quite an influence on me.
Do you want to say any more about it? I mean we’ve talked about all the family
before, but you’ve said twice during this recording about his influence, and I...it
sounds as though you’re actually talking about something deeper than just the odd
hint about, why not save a home or something.
I think...I mean Christopher would... I mean if he’s doing, making some sort of
dramatic move, I’m sure he talks to the others as well, but, he would certainly talk to
me in some depth about it. I mean whether it’s moving his shop from Vigo Street to
Pimlico, or...and how that should be funded, and... I mean, I mean, whatever. And
our family home at Clifton Hampden which he sold, obviously he consulted all of us
about that, and, apart from one brother who couldn’t quite see the point of it all, we
were all wholly supportive, for all sorts of reasons. One, that he was getting older,
and the main road has got, you know, bigger and wider and went straight past the
front door, and, it’s jolly noisy. And in the summer, looking over the Thames you
had, you know, literally hundreds of people bathing opposite, it’s just like Brighton
Beach on a nice day. But, it...it wasn’t the place it used to be, and you know... And
something had to be done about it. So, and nobody in the family wanted to take it on.
Because that was rather a white elephant I think. Anyway, no, he would...we would
talk about anything. And of course, this house is entirely him, I mean you know,
everything in it that I’ve bought, has been Christopher.
Oh I didn’t realise that.
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Yes.
And do you do the same with him? I mean, it sounds as though you’re in a way his
closest friend; is it the same vice versa?
I think my sister, his twin, is his closest friend. But, I’m one of the other close
friends, yes.
But is he the same to you?
Is he the same to me? Do I ask his advice? I do, yes. Absolutely, yes. The only
thing we haven’t talked about is St Paul’s Cathedral. Do you want to...?
We’ve got a.....
[End of F12015 Side B]
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Tape 20 [F12016] Side A (part 37)
.....actually feel when the family home was sold? Because after all it had been a
constant in your life for an awfully long time.
I knew it was the right thing. I mean it’s all very well having a very nice house in the
country overlooking the Thames and the perfectly lovely village and all that sort of
thing, and we were very very lucky to be brought up there. But, for the reasons I’ve
given, it had become, it had changed so much. And, is it right for a bachelor to live in
a decent size house like that? It would be much better for the village to have if
possible a younger couple with children. And that’s what so fortunately happened,
this Danish count bought it, and he’s got two young children.
That’s the intellectual side of it. But what did you feel about the family home
vanishing?
Do you know, I felt, although even after my parents’ day, with Christopher there for
the last twenty years, and I used to go down there quite a bit... I used to down there
once a quarter, that sort of thing, not much more than that, but, spend a night or two
with Christopher. And I loved the village and I loved the house, and everything. But
I just thought it was time for everything to move on really. And, it was... The sale of
the contents was the most extraordinary performance, with 300 people turning up, and
bidding crazy prices, because they wanted something that was the Gibbs’. And that
was amusing. Terrific compliment to Christopher. And it was a bit sad, things that
one loved which, you know, went under the hammer, although we had all been
offered whatever we wanted by Christopher. But, you know, even so, although we
haven’t got room for them, you know, it was sad when x sofa went or whatever. But I
had so few twinges of conscience, of disappointment. I didn’t have any. I just... Do
you know, it just, it all moved on.
And do you think it affected him in any particular way?
Yes, I think he found it very difficult. I think he found it absolutely agonising. And
the children, David’s, my eldest brother David’s children’s trust have several cottages
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in the village, and Christopher has bought one of them, his favourite one, which
happens to be next door or just above frightfully nice people called Eric and Joan
Oliver, who were the two people who really looked after all of us, or were our closest
friends in the village, when we arrived at Clifton Hampden fifty-three years ago.
And, he was a, sort of the estate carpenter and did everything else on the estate you
can think of. And, she was just a wonderful friend who, you know, when my mother
had to go and do something, she would step in and, you know, look after us. So,
that’s really nice that the Olivers, who are really the last of my parents’ friends and
commitments in the village; all the others have died. But... So it’s nice that they’re
next to each other. But he has got this thing about Morocco, I don’t know why but he
has, I mean, he loves Morocco, and he’ll spend certainly a third of the year there in
his little cottage at Clifton Hampden.
And have you gone to Morocco with him?
I haven’t yet. I will. I always say I will, but, I haven’t yet. No I’d love to.
And when he went through the times when he was, say, working on Mick Jagger’s
film, and leading a kind of Mick Jaggery type of life...
Yes.
Were you as close to him?
No. We were always close. I was slightly embarrassed by him. Slightly like my
father was embarrassed by him. I mean you know, he’d always do something
different. He’d go to a wedding wearing a dinner jacket, or, he’d go to a wedding
wearing a cape, rings and bells. I mean you didn’t actually know what was going to
happen next. I found that rather unsettling. My mother found it intensely interesting
and amusing, and, I think my sister did too. And I’m sure my brother Julian did. The
others probably didn’t mind one way or the other. I just found it slightly
embarrassing. And I suppose I wasn’t as close to him then, through that period, as I
might have been. We’ve always been very close, but I’m particularly close to him
now and have been for the last decade or two. But he did make, did I tell you, he
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made one very nice remark when I had cancer, which is now twenty-seven years ago,
and he did say to a mutual friend, while I was in hospital, I can’t remember who the
mutual friend was, but, he said, ‘If anything happens to Roger, I’ll be like a ship
without a rudder.’ So obviously we were quite close.
Mm. And when he had that really difficult time as a schoolchild, when he was
stealing and things like that...
Yes.
...which he’s talked about on the tapes, I mean, did you know about that, were you...
No.
...involved at all?
I didn’t know that he stole anything. But, I can quite believe it. (laughs) He was a
one-off.
I mean your mother I think must have been really quite...
Shattered I should think by that.
Well, desperately trying to see what she could do.
Yes.
You weren’t aware of any of that at all?
No. Not that at all.
And did she...
I never knew he had stolen anything anywhere. Isn’t that.....
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[break in recording]
And what about when your mother went out to Morocco, did she talk about that?
Yes, she did. And he had a house in the hills. And, my mother was quite substantial
in size. She was an extremely elegant lady up to the age of – and punchy – up the age
of about forty-five, then she started to spread and...it was entirely due to eating too
much cream and sugar. But anyway, she...(laughs)...she was not quite the athlete that
she used to be. And, she was frightfully good at poking fun at herself. But she said,
you know, ‘When I arrived at this, this rather amazing place in the hills, and most
beautiful view and all that sort of thing, and, I said to Christopher, you know, after
about five minutes, “Right, now where am I going to sleep? Where’s my bedroom?”
“Oh Mother, it’s, it’s just over here.”’ And, anyway, he took her to some area of this
rather large room. ‘And, and the bed?’ ‘Oh no no, we sleep on the floor here.’ And
my mother said, you know, getting down on your knees and trying to get into bed and
look very elegant like that was not quite her scene. But having run the international
side or the Girl Guides for fifteen years when she was younger, she adapted pretty
quickly. But, she said, ‘You know, you would have thought there might be a bed for
your seventy-year-old mother, but oh no, no no.’
And when he was seeing people like Cecil Beaton or Bruce Chatwin, did you ever
meet any of them?
I didn’t, no. I can’t think who I did meet in those, of that lot. I’ve met some of them
later on. I mean, Marianne Faithfull at Wormsley watching cricket matches with Paul
Getty.
What was she like?
Delightful. Wonderful. And I think she said that, I was quizzing her about her
singing, and she said that... I said, ‘Did you have something like four number ones in
the charts?’ she said, ‘Well I think it was three. But,’ she said, ‘you know, you
wouldn’t probably have noticed, but I can’t...I haven’t actually got much of a voice,
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and I’ve got no range at all, so it all has to be rather quiet, and within a very narrow
range. And you know, you run out of combinations of music if it’s, if it’s that narrow.
And, there really wasn’t anything else to sing, so, that’s where it all sort of came to an
end.’
And would you ever have listened to her records?
Oh yes. Oh certainly. I can’t remember what they’re called, but, I loved her singing,
loved it.
So did you go through a phase where you were buying quite a lot of pop music?
Oh yes. Gosh, I can’t remember what it was, but... Oh I did, I did buy pop music,
certainly. But it was also very...it was always very tuneful pop music. No, I’d been
much more interested in choral music than, than any other music, so I was a choirboy,
and as you know, didn’t...my voice didn’t break until I was more than seventeen, well
seventeen and three months. And, so, I got to know an awful lot of choral music, and
I...I mean I... I was so lucky, I mean Jane Lee[ph] and I went to the Queen’s Jubilee
service at St Paul’s, and, listening to that choir singing I Was Glad, I mean honestly,
absolute shivers down the spine, it was the most wonderful thing.
How far do you feel you and Christopher are in one world or one and a half worlds
or three worlds or two worlds?
What, you mean he being in the art world, me being in the investment world, or what?
I mean, you obviously met, say, over a certain kind of music, if you were buying
Marianne Faithfull and he was obviously in that world.
Yes.
I don’t know that it splits so neatly into arts and investment, but you’ve got very
different social worlds in some ways.
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Very different. But, I mean, amongst quite a number of people, I mean I mean quite a
number of people, I’m known as Christopher’s brother. I mean he is... He is... He’s
quite dominant you know in, in quite a broad field, it’s extraordinary. And it’s not
just the art world. I remember... I can’t remember, I think it was George Mann sat
next to him, who is, you know, President of the MCC and Captain of England cricket,
I think it was George Mann who said to me, ‘You know last week I was very lucky , I
sat next to your brother at the Beefsteak Club,’ or something like that, ‘and, he
seemed to know more about the history of cricket than sort of, any lay person I’ve
come across. By that I mean someone who’s not a cricketer. And, he’s quite
extraordinarily knowledgeable,’ you know. And he’s...he is very knowledgeable
about a great number of things. And, I suppose that’s one of the reasons he’s, you
know, got a such a broad set of friends.
And do you think there’s been any conflict in him in coming from your father’s world
so to speak into a world that embraced Mick Jagger and everybody? And indeed
Getty has not been an entirely straightforward life.
No. It’s all...all seems to have been very smooth, and very sort of, not expected but
natural, you know.
Mm. And, talking about choral music leads us naturally into St Paul’s, so what’s
your involvement with St Paul’s?
Five years ago, Jane Lee[ph] and I went to the three-hour service at St Paul’s
Cathedral. I had been on the advisory council of St Paul’s for twenty years or
something like that.
How did that happen?
That happened because I was Chairman of Gerrard & National, and opposite was St
Edmund the King, Lombard Street, church, a little Wren church, and, Barclays always
organised who was going to be, who were going to church wardens. And, anyway,
they branched out in the most dashing fashion and moved sort of thirty yards across
the road to Gerrard & National and asked if I would like to be. So I became a church
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warden. And they had some money, and the money was from the sale of a
churchyard. I think it’s on the site of where eventually Kleinwort Benson had their
head office in Fenchurch Street. And those funds went into St Edmund the King and
Martyr Trust, and the income went to causes in the less fortunate parts of London,
whether it be some sort of child, children’s project in Hackney or whatever. Anyway,
every six months we met, and, the ex-officio trustees, or the Bishop of London and
the Archdeacon of London, the Archdeacon of London, and they were going back to
that wonderful fellow who, at the remembrance thing at, at the Albert Hall, you know
when, on the poppy, poppy day and all the poppies coming down, and, you know,
‘We will remember them’. Who was he? He had a most wonderful voice anyway,
and he, he was... He was my first boss there. And the Archdeacon was, he was from
Liverpool. And then there was another one, Archdeacon, a chap called Cassidy, who,
he was the ...he was the Archdeacon of London, and based at St Paul’s. And he said
to me that, ‘We have a little bit of money at St Paul’s Cathedral, we have absolutely
no idea what to do about it, and we are advised by people who don’t seem to know
what time of day it is,’ et cetera et cetera. ‘Would you get involved?’ So I got
involved on their advisory council, and then on the endowment fund, I was chairman
of the investment committee and things like that. Anyway, we went to...we went to
the three-hour service, and lasted I may say only an hour and a quarter, and, I spent
most of the time looking around St Paul’s and saying to myself, this building is
absolutely filthy, I mean it’s just unacceptable. And so sort of motivated I was about
that, that we spent twenty minutes after the service walking round the outside, and the
northern side is fine, but the rest of it is a complete disgrace. And it’s also quite
damaged and pitted and... Anyway. So, I bumped into the Dean on the way to an
advisers’ meeting, and, outside the chapter house, and trying to get Brownie points, so
I said that, you know, of course I was at the three-hour service, you know, three
weeks ago. ‘Oh really? Yes yes, I believe that the first preacher was a great friend of
mine,’ so-and-so. I said, ‘Yes, he was absolutely terrific. But I did find time to look
round, and what a...I mean it really is a disgrace, it’s so filthy isn’t it.’ ‘Yes,’ he said,
‘I couldn’t agree with you more. Maybe we might have a word about that sometime.’
And then we went our separate ways. And anyway, ten days later I was asked to tea
at the chapter, at the deanery. And, he said he would like me to be chairman of a
committee to look into the possibility of raising funds to clean and restore St Paul’s
Cathedral inside and out. And I became chairman of that committee, and, there were
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people like Elspeth Howe on it, who was very punchy. And it took us a year, four
meetings, to convince the Dean that actually if were going to raise the money, you
don’t go for 100 million over ten years, because, if you...he wanted to do it over ten
years, nobody is going to be keen on getting involved in anything that’s not going to
happen for ten years. And 100 million is much too much. Because he wanted to
establish endowment funds, you know, one for the fabric, one for the choir school,
and one for education, and 20 million in each. And, so we said that was no good.
Anyway in the end we persuaded him that we would try and raise £40 million, and he
accepted that. And then, the St Paul’s Cathedral Foundation, which is the vehicle for
the fundraising, was formed, and I became chairman of that. And we set about
preparing an appeal, and getting together trustees, and he wanted twenty trustees, I
wanted four. You know, there were still disagreements. But I get on very well with
the Dean, John Moses. Anyway, to cut a very long story short, we started raising
money, or trying to raise money, just over two years ago, and I was extraordinarily
fortunate in, it was the time that the Fleming family had sold out to Chase, and they
had quite a large capital gain on quite a lot of stock. And Robin Fleming had always
said to me, or he’d said to me for many years, because, since ’83 they’d been advising
the Wellcome Trust, and, and I worked in Flemings for five months in 1965 when
they tried to educate me to become a stockbroker. But I mean I knew them all so
well. And Robin had kindly said that, you know, if there’s any charitable project I
feel really strongly about, you know, ‘don’t hesitate, come and see me, and we’ll just
work out whether, you know, my family would like to do something about it.’ And
he said it three times you see, and when it said it again, around this time, I said, ‘Well
there is actually something I’d like to come and see you about, and that’s St Paul’s
Cathedral.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘how interesting.’ So, when I saw him I said that, I’m sure
the outside wouldn’t interest someone like him, but as he was particularly interested
in music, and, actually he’s interested in lighting funnily enough and things like that,
that the inside would be his, you know, his form. And, it had never been cleaned
effectively in its 300, nearly 300-year history. And I said I thought, you know, this
might be quite a nice way to say thank you for the luck, skill but also luck, that the
Fleming family have had. And he said he thought that was the most brilliant idea, and
he would think about it seriously. So I had to do a sort of written thing. And I sent
him a photograph with it of a trial bit of cleaning in one of the arches within the
cathedral where it was particularly black, and this arch had been cleaned, a most
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brilliant photograph. And, anyway he wrote back to me and said he would very much
like to follow this up. And he thanked me very much for my detailed letter and very
good to keep it to two pages, but he said, ‘Actually, all you needed to send was that
photograph, that tells it all.’ Anyway, I said to him... He said he’d like to do the
inside. So I said, ‘What part of the inside?’ He said, ‘Well if you’re going to do the
inside, you might as well do the inside.’ So... And it’s spread over five years. So he
gave us 10.8 million. So that was some start. And, it’s been a real battle. We’ve
written to over 600 chairmen and chief executives in the City. And Eddie George
very kindly gave a cocktail party and we invited all these people to it at the Bank of
England on May the 7th this year, and he spoke for five minutes, we showed a video
of fourteen minutes which is very good, and I spoke for about seven minutes I
suppose. And, we are finding it extremely difficult to raise money in these
conditions, extremely difficult. But, the main people who have given are, 10.8 from
Robin Fleming; 1.6 from English Heritage; 5 from Paul Getty, surprise oh surprise; 2
from Garry Weston’s family. And, you know, bits and pieces. Well, half a million
from Bruno Schroder, which is a surprise; everyone looks startled when I say Bruno’s
given half a million to St Paul’s, but, that was extraordinarily generous of them.
Was that through you?
What?
Was that through you?
Yes, all these... I mean actually English Heritage is nothing to do with me, that was
the cathedral. But, the others are through me.
How is Bruno in terms of the position of Schroders now and everything?
Well I don’t... I would think it’s quite a sad state of affairs.
Do you see him?
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Yes I do. I mean not often. But I talked to him about St Paul’s about three months
ago actually. But, just polishing off on that. So, adding everything together we’ve
raised £22 million, 22 actually going on 23. There are four quarter of a millions that
might come in fairly soon. Say 23. And we need 17 more. We’ve got our sort of
polished Lottery bid going in in a fortnight’s time, and we very much hope we’ll get
at least five from them, but, who on earth knows, you know, it’s... But we’ve got 23,
we’ve got 17 to go.
I’m interested that you haven’t got any American donors. Have you tried America?
We have a donation from Ned Johnson of Fidelity of half a million, and £100,000
from John Lovelace of Capital International in, you know, the investment people,
which are both very kind. Now, the reason we haven’t got American money is mainly
my fault because, I felt this is something the City of London should do. The City of
London have been incredibly reluctant in the main to do anything of any substance.
Goldman Sachs have been very generous, Simon Robertson who runs their European
side is one of the trustees. Various people connected with the London International
Financial Futures Exchange, LIFFE, have been very generous, and that’s, Brian
Williamson is also, again a surprise, a trustee of this...(laughs)...and he’s been
marvellous. But... And I know that the Rothschild family are going to be, you know,
generous. But by golly the big institutions, what hard work.
And that brings me, one of the things I wanted to catch up on was a few individuals
who we always talk about over the years.
Yes.
What’s the news with Brian Williamson?
Brian William is bone fishing off the coast of South Africa, maybe Mauritius, I don’t
know. Anyway he’s bone fishing at the moment. And, he manages to fit in an
extraordinary volume of fascinating activities, as well as his business. And I think the
business side, I mean the brilliant sale of LIFFE to Euro...is it called Euro Next[???]
or something, I don’t know.
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I don’t know about this. When we last talked that hadn’t happened.
That hadn’t happened? Well, what happened was that, he gave up being Chairman of
Gerrard & National after ten years, and the reason he gave up is that Eddie George
said, the London International Financial Futures Exchange, which was started by a
man called John Barkshire and Brian Williamson, in, I would guess 1980, had got into
real trouble and was hanging on by the proverbial financial eyelash. And what
happened was that, it was vital to have someone who really understood futures, you
know, financial or commodities or whatever, like, you know, it was second nature.
And there is actually one person in this country who does, and that is Brian
Williamson. And I mean he set up the systems for the original exchange et cetera. So
Brian was the obvious choice, in fact he was the only choice, and the Governor said to
him that, you know, ‘You have actually got to do this, and it’s as simple as that.’
Anyway, Brian moved in, and they halved the staff I think from 1200 to 600, which
was the most ghastly...he had the most terrible time. And, and they put in a new
system, which was Britain’s idea and I think, it’s almost Britain’s invention, and I
don’t know about it, but anyway it seemed to be absolutely ideal for this day and age.
And, what happened, after, I think it was fifteen months, it may have been as long as
eighteen months, it was sold to a combination of the French and Belgian exchanges
for, I think 575 million, that sort of...and it was worth nothing when Brian took it
over. Thank goodness Brian had some options, and he did actually make quite a bit of
money out of it, I mean, 7 million or something like that, and as he doesn’t have a lot
of capital, that was, he...by goodness he deserves it anyway. And, this was concluded
in January of this year, and he’s actually been desperately busy since helping the
merger through, and I should think he’ll do that for another year I would think, and
then, who knows? He’ll be, he’s fifty-seven now, I don’t know what he’ll do. His
wife Diane, who’s Belgian, she had a stroke very sadly two years ago, and she’s fine,
but doesn’t have stamina and, you know, the last thing I think she would want, or
Brian would want, is for Brian to do another hugely demanding high-profile job. So I
don’t know what he’ll do. But, he did say to me the other day, he just from time to
time feels just slightly tired. (laughs) I’m not surprised, he’s been going at it
absolutely flat out.
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What’s the implication for London that LIFFE...
And he got a knighthood in the New Year’s Honours.
Oh did he? Oh I didn’t know that.
And there was an article, which will amuse you actually, in the Spec...what’s the
other...not the Spectator. I think it was in the Spectator. Written by Christopher
Fildes, and, it was entitled ‘The Five Knights’ and explaining what an extraordinarily
unlikely tale it is, that out of a relatively small firm such as Gerrard & National, that
five of the key directors should have received knighthoods, and for reasons that were
absolutely nothing to do with Gerrard & National. And it was David Money-Coutts
for being Chairman of Coutts and looking after the Queen’s money; Anthony
Montague Browne for looking after Winston Churchill in the last thirteen years of his
life, the honour a bit late you would have thought in that case; Peter Miles who
became Keeper of the Privy Purse; Brian Williamson, a tiny bit to do with Gerrard &
National but it was entirely really because of saving LIFFE; and me because of the
Wellcome Trust. Very very odd. Anyway I saw Eddie George about something,
about St Paul’s, and walking out he said, ‘I think...I’m very pleased about Britain
Williamson, I think it’s wonderful news, but,’ he said, ‘I think it’s indecent that there
should be five knights from such a, you know, relatively unimportant institution such
as the one you used to run.’ (laughs) With a twinkle.
[End of F12016 Side A]
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Tape 20 [F12016] Side B (part 38)
.....any implications for the City if LIFFE is owned by foreigners?
Well I think it’s going to be run from the City. I mean I think it’s...it’s going to go...
I mean it’s just going to be a bigger, broader exchange as I understand it, but it’s
going to be based in London.
Right.
What happens to the Stock Exchange is even more interesting. I’ve no idea what’s
going to happen there.
Can you explain a bit?
Well no, only that, they were bidders for LIFFE, and got out-bid by the French and
the Belgians, which I think quite a lot of people think was not only unnecessary but
rather silly of them. And there’s a rather strong woman, I think she’s called Clara
Furse, who runs the Stock Exchange or is the key person at the Stock Exchange, and,
I don’t know, there seemed to be...she seemed to get a little bit on her high horse and
didn’t play her cards very well. Anyway, I mean I just don’t know what...I don’t
know what will happen to the Stock Exchange, but... Its shares suddenly shot up at
one stage, I think they’ve come back quite sharply now, and is it Don Cruickshank,
the Chief Executive, is going, and... I don’t...I mean I’m not well enough informed
honestly to...
OK. Of the people we normally talk about, there’s Henry Askew, what’s happened to
Henry in the last year?
Henry’s...I think he’s still doing his travel business, and, he’s in particularly good
form. I had dinner with him about three months ago, four months ago, and he’s just
the same, as thin as ever, just as keen on his children. And, talks with enormous
affection of the old days with Williamson and me and one or two other friends.
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He’s still divorced?
Still divorced.
How old are the children?
I don’t know, but I would guess, thirteen, eleven and eight.
And do you know where they’re at school?
Ludgrove is one, and trying to go to Eton, or whether he has got to Eton. But
Ludgrove is I think where they go to.
And is Henry still in Scotland?
Yup.
And Ross Jones.
Ross Jones, he is still at Old Mutual, and, Old Mutual has gone through a pretty thin
patch, like a lot of those institutions. And the price they paid for Gerrard & National,
which I have a feeling was almost identical to the price that the Belgians and the
French paid for LIFF, for whatever reason, I think it was £575 million. And that of
course was a very very poor purchase, and a magical sale. I mean, Gerrad & National
had really, well, the world had changed, and you know, there was no longer a
discount market, and it wasn’t the sort of, top dog in that field, it wasn’t the top dog of
any field, and... It was the most extraordinary purchase. At the time it looked fairly
ridiculously high, the price, but now of course it looks cloud cuckoo-land and... I
think shortly after the purchase, I mean a year after the purchase, they had to write off
a hundred and something million for a start, and obviously they had to write off a lot
more since. But Ross is about...Ross, and think about five others, are still there, from
Gerrards, and one gathers that, you know, Ross will probably be the only person there
fairly soon. But he’s done very well at Old Mutual, is very highly thought of. So, I
would say he quietly goes from strength to strength in a bear market.
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Isn’t it strange that he hasn’t gone somewhere else?
I know.
Is that to do with him being such a loyal person do you think?
I think he’s very fond of the sort of, four or five he worked with. And, one of them,
Adrian Taylor, got cancer very badly and... I don’t know, they’re a sort of closely
knit little group, and I think he... He likes having his friends round him I think.
But it’s a very different path from the one you predicted when I first met you at
Wellcome.
What did I...
And you thought he’d be head of Gerrard & National.
Well, he actually, they very nearly eased him out at one stage. But... Well he’s been
head of the Gerrard & National bit at Old Mutual. Yes, he was the obvious person. I
mean if the world hadn’t changed, he would be the obvious person to be chairman of
Gerrard & National. I’m sure he would have been. He may have been chief
executive actually in fairness.
But it’s a measure of the way the world’s changed.
Yes.
When might he have been eased out under...?
He... I don’t know, there was... It was after Williamson had gone, or just about, and
they had a new chairman, I can’t remember, someone from Kleinwort’s. And they
just thought the discount market had come to an end, and what was he going to do,
and did they really need him? The fact that he could have been a principal or a broker
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just as effectively hadn’t quite crossed their minds. But Mark Davies I think having
been slightly, I’m not sure what should happen to Ross, became a strong devotee, and
he became the key person at Gerrard & National, so, Ross was back in the...
Would Ross have had any idea that this was happening?
I think he did, yes. And of course, the person who sniffed it out before Ross or
anyone else was Henry Askew, who had absolutely nothing to do with the firm. And
so he was on to me, ‘We’ve got to have lunch.’ You can imagine what it was like.
‘This is an absolute tragedy if it happens,’ you know, ‘we’ve got to stop it,’ you
know. (laughs) But it was nothing to do with us. Anyway, it...I think it was just, that
was just a passing phase, and, and maybe they would never have got round to doing
that, but... He’s...he’s done just as well as anyone.
And he’s still married with children?
Yup.
Mm. And, two things just, two details to do with Wellcome Trust, and then I’ve got to
other questions then I promise we’re finished. You mentioned Mike, was it Mike
Dexter?
Yup.
Can you just tell me a little bit more about him?
Mike Dexter, one of the world’s experts on blood, and a very unexpected choice as
director, or chief executive of the Wellcome Trust, has turned out to be extremely
successful, and a brilliant appointment. And he is leaving the Wellcome Trust, having
done, I should think fully five years, yes fully five years, as Director. He’s leaving
next March. It will probably be six years when he actually goes. He, I mean I had
dinner with him the other night, he’s...you know, everyone says he’s not made up his
mind what he’s going to do in the future. In actual fact he hasn’t even thought about
the future. He has worked incredibly hard. He has been living in Cheshire, his home,
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at weekends, and you know, going back and forth the whole time, and, finding it all
rather exhausting. And his children are at sort of, I think thirteen, fifteen stage, and he
really does want to spend, you know, a proper summer holiday with them next year.
And, he’s just going to think what to do. I’m sure he’s got lots of ideas; I have no
doubt he’s been made many offers. He’s really, he turned out to be as I say a superb
appointment.
And, another aspect of Wellcome, what about the public gallery and things like SciArt, and those initiatives, were you anything to do with those?
I wasn’t, no. When you say the public gallery...?
Well the Wellcome Gallery.
At...?
On Euston Road.
On Euston Road. Well the library is obviously still very much there, and the focal
point of that building. The exhibition, Science For Life, went to Manchester, because
we needed more space in the building, and, it had been there for four years or
whatever it was. And anyway, it was thought that it should go to Manchester, and
they were desperate to have it, so, so that’s what happened to that. But, did I say
earlier that the new building is going to be modern-day offices, yes, and this is going
to be more exhibition space. So I don’t know what they’re planning within the
Wellcome Building.
But that was always part of the thinking, that there would be a sort of, a face that was
open to the general public to...?
Yes. Yes, I mean that was, that was always hoped. But we...we, you know, the two
buildings next door to the Wellcome Building, Jimmy Knapp and his merry men from
the NUR, and MI5, which was over Euston Square tube station, but the rest of the
block was those two buildings. And we bought the MI5 building when it was being
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pulled down. I mean it was... Sorry, we bought it to put pull it down. And, try and
buy... We were going to buy that NUR building if it was the last thing we did. And,
the timing was all very convenient, because, we paid 19 million for the MI5 building I
think, to pull down, which sounds rather flashy but it was actually the sensible thing
to do. And then the NUR building, the NUR were going through a pretty thin
financial time, and they said they would never move, you know, that was where
they’ve been for thirty years and they were never ever going to move. But anyway
we made them an offer which seemed quite exciting to them, and it wasn’t too much
money for us by any means, and, we bought them out and pulled that down as well.
And that’s the two together, that’s going to be the rest of the block, and that’s going to
be the, the new building. And that’s, that’s worked out really well, really well. And,
as someone said, that, there’s now talk that, they don’t like having the, the tube people
don’t like having, London Transport don’t like having Euston Square and Euston;
they would rather have another name for that, and it’s been suggested to London
Transport that it should be called Wellcome, but, I don’t think that’ll happen.
And, changing the subject completely, there are two small things going back into your
life that I want to catch up on. One is, you had a tiny career as a railway porter.
Porter. Yup.
Tell me about that. Why have you kept it so secret from me?
I haven’t kept it secret from anyone. In fact I...I used to say, ‘When I was up at
Oxford, Oxford Station,’ always used to go down quite well in speeches. Anyway,
what happened there? I lived at Clifton Hampden, and was an extremely immature
eighteen year old, and slightly pigeon-chested, but I had a bad knee. I mean it was
bad then, I’d forgotten that. It was when I was nineteen, eighteen. Anyway, I was
bound to fail my Army medical for either reason. And, I duly did fail my Army
medical. But while waiting for the result of the Army medical, I looked for
employment. And if I was not going to go into the Army, my parents thought I ought
to do some, you know, something that’s slightly rougher than... Anyway I couldn’t
do clerical work or anything like that, I couldn’t...I was absolutely hopeless at that
sort of thing. So, the local vicar’s daughter who lived over the fence from us...son,
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who lived over the fence from me, George Shetliffe[ph], a frightfully nice chap who is
a very good friend of mine, he and I set off for the Labour Exchange in Oxford, and it
was either hedging or ditching, hedging and ditching, or, there might be an opening at
Oxford Station. So, I could hardly lift a shovel, so, or a pickaxe, so, we scrubbed that
one. So off we went to Oxford Station, and we were interviewed by the secretary to
the stationmaster. And she happened to live in Clifton Hampden, by pure chance, and
happened to be married to a chap I played cricket with, and, they were tenants of my
parents. So I mean it was all sort of, that was quite nice. [inaudible] I wish I could
remember her name, she’s called Stevings[???] but I can’t remember what her
Christian name was. She was frightfully nice anyway. So... The only opening was as
goods porters. And, she said to me, you know, ‘We’ve got two slots, and, for a threemonth job, which you both want. But, you know, unloading the fish from Grimsby at
three o’clock in the morning isn’t everyone’s form particularly, if you’re not terribly
strong. And are you absolutely sure that you can lift these heavy weights and be a
goods porter?’ I mean, George Shetliffe[ph] certainly could. And I said, ‘Certainly I
can, yes.’ And she said, ‘Well look, I think I’m going to help you fill in your form.’
And so I said, ‘That’s really kind,’ the application form. And, anyway, I just
remember two things, and she said, ‘Your height?’ ‘Six foot three and a half.’ ‘Five
foot ten. And your weight?’ ‘Nine stone twelve.’ ‘Thirteen stone one.’ And, I mean
it was simply wonderful, I mean she just did the whole thing for us. And we worked
on, at Oxford Station for three months. And we had three shifts, two o’clock in the
morning until ten, ten till six, and six till two o’clock in the morning. And, I was
actually in charge of sweeping one platform, which was three-quarters of a mile long,
it’s difficult to believe, and George the other one. Which was quite a slog, but we had
very wide brooms. But we had the most wonderful time there. I really enjoyed it.
We were paid £5.17s.6d. a week, and, we were allowed to do passenger duties if there
was nothing going on in the goods side. And there was a chap who is bored to tears
with me telling this story every time I see him to the people who we are with, Oliver
Fox-Pitt, who was coming down from Oxford, and, he I didn’t know that well but I
knew him, and anyway, he was rather surprised to see me. And, then, he... In those
days you were only allowed to take 100 pounds in weight, however many bags or
cases or trunks you had, only 100 pounds in weight, on a railway. And so anything
that was remotely doubtful had to be weighed. Anyway, he said, ‘I fear this could be
over 100 pounds.’ So anyway, you know, George or whoever put it on the scales, and
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I had my foot under the scales, you know, trying to give a... And it sort of steadied at
ninety-two and I said, ‘Take it off!’ And...(laughs)...practically break my toe. It was
obviously 140. Anyway, he gave me a tip of 2s.6d., which was five times the norm.
That was very kind.
And, what was the railway like as an employer?
Very good. The stationmaster was the most charming man, and you would have
thought that two public school boys turning up, you know, wouldn’t fit in and people
wouldn’t make it easy. We had a...everyone was so nice. And, he was the most
delightful person. And one day he said, ‘When you come in for the ten o’clock shift
tomorrow, bring your bag and bring a suit, and, you know, proper shirt and tie, and
polished shoes,’ or whatever it is. And, I said, ‘Oh, what will I be doing?’ He said, ‘I
think you should go racing at Newbury. Well you know, we’ve got enough people
here tomorrow. And, if you catch the 11.15, you know, you can just do an hour’s
work and catch the 11.15, and you know, you can come back on the 4.40 or
something.’ And, and he gave me a ticket, a return ticket. Now that was a very nice
thing to do.
Indeed.
A good employer, yes.
Did you do any other jobs like that?
I don’t think so. No, because I, I went straight into the City.
Right.
I went straight into Jessel Toynbee.
And, the other thing where we got almost to the point of last time and then we had to
stop was, I can’t remember the name. Oh, yes I can. GVS Trent Baxter, and your
greyhound.
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GVS Trent Baxter and my greyhound. Well when we got the greyhound, I had a
greyhound called Hare Sense[ph], and another one called Witness of Court. Hare
Sense[ph] was very...
What sort of age would you have been at this stage?
This would have been 1956, I would have been twenty-two, that sort of thing. Hare
Sense[ph]... What we did was, we...I’m sure I said this before, but I sat next to Lady
Carisbrooke at a dinner for a deb dance, she had no idea who I was, I was just allotted
to her. And, anyway, she suddenly said, you know, ‘Are any of you interested in
racing?’ And John Bingham, who became John Lucan, was there, and I was here,
Lady Carisbrooke there. So we said we were both extremely interested, yes. And she
said, ‘Well my husband is Chairman of the Greyhound Racing Association, and he
has said to me that I ought to look out for young men who might be interested in
having dogs at Haringey.’ And, so we perked up like mad. And, she said, ‘The deal
is very simple, that they have not got enough owners, they need more owners,
and...they’ve got the dogs but they haven’t got the owners.’ So, they would lease to
anyone interested, who is respectable, they would lease a dog, and it would cost
absolutely nothing, and if it won more than £75 in prize money in any one year, the
owner who had lent his name to it would receive one third of that amount. So, as the
first prize was, you know, for races was between £8 and £15, it was...you weren’t
going to get rich. Anyway as a result of that we had dogs. Peter Hill-Wood, who is
now Chairman of the Arsenal, he had one called Sandown Bugler, which was a...
Sandown Bugler was a hurdler. You wouldn’t think you would have hurdles at dogs,
but you do. And, John Lucan’s, or John Bingham’s, was called Sambo’s Hangover,
and mine was called Hare Sense[ph]. Anyway, after about a year, we’d been racing
on Mondays and Fridays at Haringey, and we went time and time again. And, having
dinner behind glass for 10s.6d., you know, I mean it was...it was quite good value
even in those days. And, anyway the famous night came when all three were running
on the same night. And my trainer was Mr Morse, and Mr Morse, I asked him about a
week before, could he find out from his friends, other training friends, whether
Sambo’s Hangover and Sandown Bugler had got a chance next Friday or whatever it
was. Because he said that Hare Sense[ph] he thought was going to win, without any
Sir Roger Gibbs Page 452
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doubt. So, anyway, when we went down, we went down early and saw Morse on the
great night, and we doubled and had a treble on the three dogs. Hare Sense[ph] won
the first race at 7-4; Sandown Bugler won the hurdle race at 11-4; and then Sambo’s
Hangover. Sambo’s Hangover was running over 963 yards, which was sort of,
marathon distance, it’s usually 525, for the first time, and the trainer felt he would
stay, and, although the other dogs were better than him, he would actually outlast
them and probably win. Trotted up at 100-7. And we had this bet, these doubles and
the trebles, with Croydon Turf, which was a small bookmaker, and, they paid us out,
we won three hundred and something pounds between us, which in 19, it must have
been 1957 this, was big money, I mean really big money. And, they closed our
accounts, all three of our accounts were closed that time. They thought we had inside
information, which of course they were quite right, we did have inside information.
Anyway, so, when things were getting a little bit rough and we were still not earning
enough money, John Lucan and I decided that we would become a tipster. And, we
took a page in the Sporting Chronicle handicap book, and we worked out one night
over dinner as to what we should call ourselves, and we thought, for whatever reason,
that GVS Trent Baxter sounded as if it was respectable, heavyweight, solid, and had a
touch of class. And, anyway... (laughs) The advertisement said, ‘GVS knows all,’
and then GVS Trent Baxter, the, you know, the well-known punter on the horses et
cetera. Anyway, we had two weeks of this. In the first week our two horses both lost,
and the next week we had one winner, which unfortunately was odds on, and one
loser. And we got...we had seven ten shilling... It cost about £12 a page. We had
seven ten shilling subscribers, and one was an Irish postal order for ten shillings, I
remember that being slightly disappointing. And, that was the first week, and I think
we had four the second week, and we realised this was not a viable proposition. So,
GVS disappeared.
And that was the whole history of GVS?
That was the whole history of GVS. And when we had this... Brian Williamson gave
this marvellous farewell dinner from the City for me at the Natural History Museum,
you know, on the, the list of people present was GVS Trent Baxter. I mean typical
Williamson. (laughs)
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And tell me more about John Lucan.
And when I went from Wellcome, that... Julian Jack, my deputy chairman, made the
most marvellous speech. Did I ever tell you about that?
I think I’ve got the...
The Wizard of Wellcome, I’m sure you...yes.
Yes. I’ve got the photocopy of it.
Yes yes. OK.
That’s how I knew about the Trent...
Yes. But he, he mentioned Trent Baxter, he got an airing again then. Otherwise he’s
hardly even mentioned. Lucan. Yes.
Tell me about him.
He worked at William Brandt’s. He was John Bingham, and his father was a Labour
pier. And, he was a great friend of mine at school, at Eton. And, I kept in touch with
him afterwards, and we both turned up at the City at the same time. He was in that
little merchant bank, William Brandt’s, and, he was a pretty imaginative investor, but
he was also a born gambler, and he eventually gave up William Brandt’s after about
seven years, because he was winning or losing eight or ten thousand at Crockfords in
a night, and he was being paid two and a half thousand a year at William Brandt’s.
He was losing it where?
Crockfords.
Which is what?
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Crocktfords... It’s amazing, you see, you don’t know. Crockfords is... (laughs)
Crockfords was a club, a gambling club. Originally it was a bridge club, but it was a
gambling club, you know, with tables and chemin de fer and roulette, in Carlton
House Terrace. Very civilised place to go to. And you would get quite good food
very cheap, you know, sort of, titbits of foie gras or caviar or something, but it was all
very cheap, to encourage you to gamble. Anyway, he used to play at the high table, I
used to play at the very small tables. And if I made £50 or lost £20, and that was the
norm, but he was, he was big time. And, he decided to give it up because of making
or losing those big sums when he was paid, you know, a quarter of that for each year
at William Brandt’s, which was a great mistake of course, but that’s what he did. But
I used to go round in the money markets, and this is ’56, and, I suppose ’56 to ’59,
that sort of thing, and I used to walk round that area and William Brandt’s was one of
the banks that I used to visit. And, I’d always say to...oh Mr Greenacre was in charge
of the money at William Brandt’s, and the chances of getting more than 50,000 were
pretty remote, so it was not really worth the visit. But, Mr Greenacre always used to
pick up his telephone and say, ‘John, Roger Gibbs is here, come down in five
minutes.’ And we’d go and have coffee at Fuller’s, which was just round the corner.
And, Bingham and...Bingham said to me, ‘You’re looking very pasty-faced,’ this one
day in 1959. ‘You’re looking very pasty-faced, and it’s high time that you, you know,
you took some exercise, and did something sensible, had a proper holiday. We’re
going out to St Moritz to ride the Cresta in three weeks’ time. Why don’t you come
with us?’ So I said, ‘Well I can come I suppose. I don’t particularly want to go to St
Moritz, and I certainly don’t want to do the Cresta Run, it’s much too frightening.’
He said, ‘Well look, come to Cinerama tomorrow night, because it’s a new thing
that’s come on, and there’s a camera on the front of a Bob going down the St Moritz
Bob run, and it’ll give you an idea of what it’s like,’ because the Cresta is about,
about thirty per cent faster than the Bob in St Moritz, ‘and you will see what it’s like,
and then you can make up your mind.’ And I went, and the whole audience, as the
Bob went round corners, was going like this, you could just see them go, ooooh!
[lurching sound] and all that, you know, it was absolutely petrifying. Anyway,
because of him, I went to St Moritz.
And would you still do the Cresta Run, knowing what it did to your knee in the end?
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C409/086 Tape 20 Side B (part 38)
Would I do it? I did, I did it...I did it last when I was President of the Centenary.
But I mean would you do it, knowing what happened in the end, in retrospect?
Oh. Oh yes. Oh yes.
And just, we’re about to run out of tape. Tell me the end of the John Lucan story.
Well... No, well John Lucan I kept in quite close touch with, but it’s a very long story
actually. But I saw him six months before he disappeared, and he wasn’t that worried
about his finances, because he had assets that he could sell in an emergency, but...
And he seemed sort of relatively calm. He had lent me £1,000 in my hour of need
many years.....
[break in recording]
.....to play golf in America, and he, he knew he was going to make an absolute fortune
playing golf. And he had only been there a fortnight and I got a cable, which you had
in those days, telegram, saying, ‘Please credit my account at such-and-such bank with
the £1,000 if convenient. If not convenient, forget this telegram. See you soon.’
Anyway I did pay it, pay it back. But... I can’t remember why on earth I’m saying
this. No it’s getting a bit muddled. But he was...
I was asking...
No he was very...no he was very kind to.....
[End of F12016 Side B]