The
A
Black
Artist
Symposium
in
America:
ROMARE
SAM
BEARDEN,
HUNT
RICHARD
TOM
LAWRENCE
LLOYD
WILLIAM
HALE
WILLIAMS
WOODRUFF
We arehereto discusssomeof the problems of the Black artist in America.I think one of the
most perplexingis the problemof makinga living. During the last two or threeyearsthisproblemhasbeenmet
to somedegreeby moreteachingjobs beingmadeavailableto us, but it's stillhardfor the Blackartistto support
himself. I'd like to hear some of the membersof the
panelrespondto this question.
MR. LLOYD:
Many Black artists can't support themselves throughtheir art- there may be one or two, but
it's most difficult.First of all becausethe Black artist's
very existencehas beendeniedso long that peopledon't
know of him- even in the Blackcommunity.Therefore
his struggleto reachthe top has been a greatone, and I
envy three gentlemenwho are sitting here-Mr. Bearden, Mr. Lawrence,Mr. Woodruff-who have made it.
I know what kind of struggleany Black artist who's
made it has gone through,and thereforeI beara great
deal of respectfor you gentlemen.
MR. BEARDEN:
Well, Tom, would you like to explore
that a little further?You said that the Black artist is
unknownin the Blackcommunity.What could be done
to have him better known?Within his own community
and within the mainstreamof Americanart?
MR. LLOYD:
First, I think he has to be acceptedin the
galleries;the museumshave to recognizethat he has
somethingto contributeto his own culture,to the Black
communities,and I think they have failedmiserablyto
do this. Sure,within the last couple of yearsI've heard
aboutexhibitionsdedicatedto showthe accomplishment
MR. BEARDEN:
JR.
GILLIAM,
JACOB
Moderator
of the Black artistand I've been in some,but what has
happenedfor the two hundredyearsbeforethat?What
has happenedwith some three hundred,four hundred
art galleriesin greaterNew York?What has happened
with the museums?
MR. BEARDEN:
Maybe Hale Woodruffcan reply to
thesequestions,becausehe has a greatknowledgeof art
history and has lived throughsome of these problems.
MR.
WOODRUFF:
Well, I agree that it's very tough for
the Blackartistnot only to makea living but even, first,
to makeanythingout of his art. I think this is also true
of the whiteartist.I suspectthe economicproblemvaries
for all artists,andeach mustcome to gripswith it, somehow, in his own way. Of coursethe idealsolutionwould
be the ongoingsaleof his art product.This opportunity
has come to a few artists and will doubtlesscome to
and
others,althoughslowly,in the future. Scholarships
to
a
few
Black
been
have
awarded
artists, but
grants
such grantsare usuallyof short durationand therefore
do not meet the long-termneeds of artistsin general.
The majorityof artists,Blackandwhite, resortto teaching as a meansof meeting economicneeds,while some
artistsengagein other types of employment.
Generallyspeaking,the Black artist has not had the
sameopportunitiesto exhibit in the big nationalannuals
and biennialsas otherartistshave. A numberof galleries
exhibit the worksof a few leadingBlack artists,but by
and large the Black artist has not come beforea very
large public throughgallery shows, which could open
up to him channelsof purchaseand public recognition.
245
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Supportfrom the Blackcommunityfor the Blackartist
is graduallydeveloping,but it seems that the real job
still remainsin the handsof the art institutions- galleries and museums-to providethe Black artistwith that
kind of professionaland prestigioussupporthe needsfor
his continueddevelopmenton both the economicand
aestheticlevels.
In writing about this once I said that
MR. BEARDEN:
the best-knownBlack artistsinceHenry O. Tannerwas
certainlyJacobLawrence.Jacobhas been one of the artists who has been in showsand representedus through
the years, and I'd like Jake to give us his thoughtson
the economicproblemsof the Black artist.
I surely agree with Mr. Lloyd and
MR. LAWRENCE:
Mr. Woodruff,but I thinkit takeson anotherdimension
than just the economic.I think it's a psychologicalone.
Mr. Lloyd asked what can be done, what can help. I
think one thing we can do is just what we'redoingnow,
and more of it. It's going to take education- educating
the white communityto respectand to recognizethe intellectualcapacityof Blackartists.We've beenaccepted
in the theater to a greaterdegree than we have in the
fine arts.Why is this so? I think it's becausein this area
we are recognizedto have a naturalability. But still,
there's a psychologicalproblem.You take a man like
Bill Robinson,who neverattainsthe samekind of recognition as a Gene Kelly. They say we're supposedto be
good cooks, but we've never been made chefs in the
we've neverbeenaskedto give cooking
Waldorf-Astoria,
lessonson television.Why?Becausethiscallsfor a certain
recognitionon the partof the white communitythat you
have an intellectualcapacitythat either they don't want
to recognizeor areso brainwashed
that they can'taccept.
On the other hand,none of us wants to be selectedas
"the one and only" or "one of the few." Mr. Bearden
andMr. WoodruffandI havebeenparticipatingin shows
for a numberof years, and the rest of you have come
along- I've seenyour names.But none of us appreciates
the idea of "We'llacceptyou and this is it." It's going
to take just what we'redoing now to educatethe white
community.I thinktheymusthavea psychologicalblock
becausethey refuseto see and refuseto recognizewhat
we can do. The mere fact that we're here, having this
discussion,indicatesthis. We're alwaysin Negroshows,
not just shows.I don't know of any other ethnic group
that has been given so much attention but ultimately
forgotten.You take a man like HoracePippin,who I'm
surewasa greater"primitive"thanGrandmaMoses.But
comparetheamountof recognitionthe twohavereceived.
MR. WILLIAMS:
It seems that one of the underlying
246
thingswe'retalkingaboutis that basicallywe comefrom
a nonvisualcultureor people. There haven't been that
many visual arts-paintings, sculpture-exposed to the
Blackcommunityitself.I think that one of the mechanisms that helps a young persondecide to be an artist is
what resourcesthere are for him to go to. One of the
thingsI'm interestedin, one of the necessities,is to provide facilities. Provide a situation where these young
peoplecancomeand be helpedin a constructivemanner,
not just in the usualsuperficialart-schoolmethods.
Getting backto shows,oneof the thingsthat'shappening is that every showthat concernsBlackartistsis really
a sociologicalshow.The "Harlemon My Mind"show is
a pointingexampleof total rejectionon the part of the
establishment,of saying"Well, you're really not doing
art," or of not dealingwith the artiststhat may exist or
do exist in Harlem.These showsdeal with the sociological aspectsof a community,a historicalthing. I think
the natureof thispanelis just that again- anothersociologicalthing, insteadof dealingwith pressingissues.The
questionis "You'rea Black artist;what are you doing,
what do you want to do, where do you want to go?"
insteadof saying"Youarein it, you'rean artistwho has
been suppressed,how can we help you?" I'm somewhat
irritatedby and somewhatopposedto the natureof this
panel, especiallywhen you attach the "Black artist"
thing to it, becauseI think we'reperpetuatingthe ideas
that we'retryingto get awayfrom.Therearetwo different questionsaboutBlackidentity.BlackmenandBlack
artists-they're different questions and somehow they
seem to be throwntogetheras one that can be answered
with somesimplestatement.There are as many answers
to that questionas thereare peoplesitting here.
MR. BEARDEN:
Bill, we'regoingto discusssomeof these
questionsof identity later, so at this point I'd like you
to develop some of the programsyou have in mind for
the communityand, to use an old cliche, for the economic bettermentof the artist.
MR. WILLIAMS:
One of the thingsthat we've thought
and talkedaboutwasan artist-in-residence
program.The
natureof this programwould be that we askan artistor
groupof artists,as professionalpeople, to serveas artists
in residencein a particularcommunity.They would be
totally supported;that is, their studio bills and living
expenseswould be paid. We're not talking about the
usualgrantlevel of two or three thousanddollars;we're
talkingabout ten or fifteen thousanddollars.What they
wouldbe askedto do in returnwouldbe to producetheir
own work,produceit on a serious,aggressivelevel, and
also to act as maleimages,symbolsof attainmentfor the
community.An aspiringartistcouldcometo them- they
could be almost apprentices-and could be supported,
that is, providedwith a studio and materialsor with
minimumliving expenses.This is kind of an idealistic
proposal,but I'm sure if we can have this panel, if we
can have fifty Black shows,we can have this idealistic
proposal.
MR. HUNT:
There are things like that in operationin
othercities,in St. Louis,for example.They havea grant
fromthe RockefellerFoundationandfromthe Danforth
Foundationto set up this kind of artist-in-residence
program,with apprenticesand studiospace,and something
like a ten-thousand-dollar-a-year
stipend.I don't seewhy
it couldn't be done in New York, becausethere are
even more resourceshere, certainlyin terms of artists
available.That sort of thing has been developedin Illinois, too; I've beeninvolvedwith the IllinoisArtsCouncil. They've startedan artist-in-residence
programthat
doesn't deal specificallywith Negro communities,but
with a number of outlying communitiesthat for one
reason or another don't have access to this culturalenrichmenttype of program.
MR. GILLIAM:
A similarkind of artist-in-residence
prois
on
gram going in Washington,in whichI'm a participant. The stipendis five thousanddollarsand studiofacilitiesareprovided.It's not specificallydirectedtoward
the Blackcommunity,but the majorityof Washington's
populationis Black.
SinceI'm fromWashingtonmy experienceshave been
totallydifferent,and that leadsme to raiseanotherquestion in relationto the problemof economics,and this is
aboutthe extent that the Blackartisthasbeenrecognized
by the Black community.The answermight be what
Mr. Williamshas suggested,a matter of sociologyor a
matterof economicson a greaterscale.We've beenprevented from being visuallyminded becausewe've had
to be so industriallyminded.This economicfactorwould
probablyprevent someonelike myself from a southern
communityfrom comingto schoolin New York, as opposed to staying in my own communityand going to
school.How areyou going to thinkaboutthingslike art
when it's all you can do to get any kind of job? These
kindsof thingshave been prevalentissues.
MR. BEARDEN:
Hale, perhapsyou could sum up some
of theseeconomicproblemsin relationto the future.Do
you think a young man like Williamswill have a better
prospectof makinga living as an artistthan you had?
MR. WOODRUFF:
First, I'd like to say thatI don'tagree
entirelywith WilliamsandGilliamon the notionthatwe
are not visuallyminded. I'm older than anybody here
and I've lived long enoughto see scoresof Blackartists,
whoneverreallymadeit, comeandgo. They didn'tmake
it for many of these economicreasons,but basicallyI
think they didn't make it becausetherewas no kind of
world for them, either in the Black communityor the
white community.I don't want to sound chauvinistic,
but I thinkevery Blackmanhascertainsensitivitiesand
sensibilitiesthat come out in variousart forms.The fact
thatmusicis one of ourstrengthsprobablyis no accident.
The fact that we don't have a visualhistoryor a history
of creatingvisualworksin this country is a fact of circumstance,and doesn'tmean that the visualworldwas
neveropen to us or that we neveropenedour eyes to it.
I thinkit's chieflyeconomic.In the twentiesand thirties
there were many Black artists.Read some booksabout
it: you'll see name after nameof artistswho have since
fromthe scene.They simplycouldnot make
disappeared
it in the so-calledfine arts, but many of these fellows
got into the non-fine-artsareas,like illustration,design,
teaching.You rarely,if ever, hearabout them, but they
are there.Whatwe'rediscussingnow is the so-calledfine
arts area.When you ask me what'sgoing to come-we
don't know. But here is a practicalpoint: I believe that
in the visualartsthere'ssomethingmorethanjust painting for MadisonAvenueor a galleryshowor a museum
show.I know of many young Blackartistswho are successfuldesigners- TV designers,industrialdesigners,and
so on. This is a very realand practicalworld.
The Americanhasa notionthat fine artsarethe greatest thing that ever existed, and he may very well be
right. I don't know that you've got to worry too much
aboutthatyoungsterwho'sgoingto be an artist,whether
he's in the ghetto or in Nob Hill or wherever.Circumstancesaregoingto leadhiminto it, andI thinkjustabout
every man at this table has come into art in that way.
The establishmentof centersin the ghetto andelsewhere,
availableto allpeopleaswellas the peoplewholive there,
will be a way of not only discoveringtalent but also of
encouragingit and helpingit to develop. But I'm very
wary of urging these fourteen-and fifteen-year-oldsto
go into art as a profession.Let them makeup their own
minds. I think the whole world of art should be open
to them and made availablefor them to become involved, either as active participantsor appreciator-consumersof art.
But is that worldopen to them?
MR. LLOYD:
In termsof what it has been and is
MR. WOODRUFF:
now for a lot of people,I don't know. It's hardenough
for the best to make it in the fine arts area.I see the
future as being one where there are conduciveatmos247
pheres,facilities,and people to work with these youngsters.There might be no teachingin the senseof having
classes,but simplyevery facility imaginable,and guides
and teachersto workwith them. If a youngsterwantsto
throwsome clay around,let him do it: if he gets sick of
that and wants to carve some wood, that's fine. This is
the kind of orientationI think would be helpful in developinginterest,activity, and participation.
I think there needs to be a giganticeffort
MR. LLOYD:
to bringart to young Blackkidsin an enormousproject.
I don't think they have anywherenearthe sameopportunity as anyoneelse. I think young white kids are exposed to art at a very early age; their mothersgo to
museumsand dragthe kids alongand they get a look at
art when they'rethreeor four.This doesn'thappenwith
Blackkids.
When I said the visual world was
MR. WOODRUFF:
open to Blackkids, I meant thingsthat every man sees,
even if it's an old backfence. I certainlyagreethat they
need art broughtto them.
This is one of my pet things:it's very imMR. LLOYD:
portant to bringart to Black people. Right now, we're
not goingto museumsandto artgalleries.I've beengoing
to them for somethinglike twenty-fiveyearsandI could
count the Black peopleI've seen. We have to bring art
to the Black communities.We should have things like
the "wallof pride."We have to beautifythe Blackcommunities,with treesor whatever;we have to havemonuments to Black heroes, right on Seventh Avenue. It's
importantfor Black people to have this identity. They
have to feel this pride.It's our responsibilityto bringit
to them.We canbeginby usingposters,by usingexisting
billboards,and we have to get the money to do this. A
group of Black artistsshouldget togetherand do these
postersandput themup andlet peoplesee them.Perhaps
a place like the Metropolitanshouldfinancesomething
like that.
MR.
GILLIAM:
Up to now our major interest hasn't been
in promotingculture, in promotingawarenessof Black
art and artists.We do have to begin to make the Black
communitymore aware,more visuallyoriented.
MR.
BEARDEN:
It seems to me that a big problem con-
frontsthe Blackartistafterhe decidesto becomea professionalartist.He's twenty-five,or twenty-six,or twentyseven. He's married.He has one or two children.It's
difficultgetting a foothold into the art world;trying to
havehis workexposed;tryingto makea living,probably
by having anotherjob - teachingor something.I'd like
Mr. Hunt, Mr. Gilliam,Mr. Lloyd, and Mr. Williams
to begin this discussionon professionalproblemsthey
248
themselvesare probably dealing with. How does the
young Blackartistmakea living?What are someof the
thingsthat arewrong?Whatwouldyou like to see done?
MR. LLOYD:
There shouldbe manymoreopportunities
open to the young Black artist. It's a peculiarthing: I
teach painting and sculpturein a programcalled the
Adult Creative Arts Workshop,sponsoredby the Departmentof Parks:a ceramicsclasswas introducedand
I went aroundlooking for a potter, a Black potter. I
searchedthe whole of New York and I found three.
There might be more, but I only found three and they
were already employed. I really thought about that.
Here in New York, with millionsof people, how is it
that there are only two or three Black potters?There's
somethingwrong here; someonehas perpetratedsome
kind of evil on the Black racethat'sunbelievable.
MR. GILLIAM:
Why is the issuefindinga Black potter
to teach a Black child as opposedto finding a potter?
MR. LLOYD:
Oh, I think that's very important.We
were talking about Black art: I think there'sgoing to
be Blackart, I think there'sgoing to be a separateBlack
community.If there is separateBlack art it might be a
good thing, becausewhat's gone before hasn't been a
good thing.
MR. WILLIAMS:
How would this Blackart be different
fromwhite art?
MR. LLOYD:
Well, it would be differentinasmuchas
one of our mainaimsshouldbe relatingto Blackpeople.
Black artistsshould be workingin Black communities.
MR. WILLIAMS:
The questionI'm reallyposingis how
does one make art relevantto its community?
MR. LLOYD:
I think the artist is more than just someone who paintsor someonewho makessculpture.I think
he hasa compact,a relationshipwith the peoplethat the
ordinarypersondoesn'thave. I thinkhe can bringabout
changes.
MR. BEARDEN:
Well, let me ask you a question,Tom.
You'regoing to have a show shortlyat the Studio Museum in Harlem.Tell us how you feel what you have
done relatesto the Harlemcommunity.Do you wish to
direct your art to the community?
MR. LLOYD:
Yes. I hope my showwill makeBlackpeople awareof what's happeningin art today. A lot of
Blackpeopleareinvolvedin helpingme formthat show,
in helping me make my sculptures;that's part of the
museumidea, and I don't think this has happenedbefore. But mainlyI think Black people can relateto my
work-it's a visual thing. When I was working in my
studio little Black kids would come up to my door and
just look at my light sculptureand they'd like it and
somehowrelateto it.
MR.
WILLIAMS:
Yes, but would a white kid do the
samething, though?
MR.
LAWRENCE:
Yes.
But I'm interestedin a Blackkid.
MR. WILLIAMS:
And if so, if a white kid woulddo the
samething, what makesit Blackart then?Beyond that
you did it?
MR. LLOYD:
I don't know what makes it Black art
except that it existsin the Blackcommunity.
MR.
LLOYD:
MR.
WILLIAMS:
Yes, but you could have made the
same formson Ioth Street as well, so it's not uniquely
relatedto that particularcommunity.
MR. LLOYD:
It's relatedbecauseI'm Black,andI know
wheremy feelingslie.
MR.
WILLIAMS:
Yes, but see, what I'm trying to get
at is that we talk aboutmakingBlackart. And if we're
reallytalkingaboutBlackart, we'retalkingaboutsomething in which the formsareuniquelyBlack.
MR. LLOYD:
We're talking about communication.I
don't even know that we're talkingaboutforms necessarily.It's like how you feel and what you're doing. I
mean, with the kind of thing I do, most people don't
even associateme with being Black, and when they see
me they'rerathershockedand in somecasesratherhurt
and I don't knowwhy.
MR. GILLIAM:
IStherea specificformof art thata Black
artistdoes that shouldbe immediatelyidentifiable?
MR. LLOYD: There has been in the past-Black artists
were primarilyknownas socialpainters.But that's not
what I mean:I know that it's very importantfor me to
relateto Blackpeoplewith my work,and I have to tag
myselfas beingBlackand beinginterestedin the Black
man.This is partof my very existence.It's importantto
somehowrelateto our own people.
MR. WOODRUFF: What you're supporting and asserting
then is the Black artist, not Black art.
Yeah,I'm supportingthe Blackartist,but
by supportingthe Black artist, naturallyI'm also supporting the Black community.I think that this is so
MR.
LLOYD:
important.
MR. WOODRUFF:
MR.
WILLIAMS:
It is.
Maybe I'm dwelling on a point, but
"Blackart's"kind of a touchy thing with me ...
MR. LLOYD:
No, don't you see? Black art can be any
kind of art, it can be anything.It can be a paintingof
a little Black child or a laserbeam runningaroundthe
room.We have to projectthat the artistis Black.
MR. WILLIAMS:
My point is that it canbe a laserbeam
or a de Kooningdrawingor a numberof other things.
Photograph: George Frye
It seems to me that we're belaboring the label of Black
art for nothing. What you're saying is that you should
have a commitment to the Black community, to educate them to the visual world. We're not talking about
Black art per se.
MR. LLOYD:
Not in that sense, no. But only in the
sense that the Black artist hasn't ever been publicized.
He doesn't exist. I'm with a group called Black Visual
Environments, and we're a group of professional artists
who hope to bring a big, big change about in New York
through various means - putting pressureon people if we
have to, but mainly by working in the Black communities. We're not going to teach art, we're going to get
involved in the whole political structure.
MR. WILLIAMS:
It seems to me that you couldn't really
make art as we know it now welcome or relevant to the
Black community.
MR. LLOYD:
Why not? You mean to say if there was a
statue of Martin Luther King on Seventh Avenue ...
MR. WILLIAMS:
We're not talking about statues.
There's a difference.
MR. LLOYD:
But we're talking about art.
MR. WILLIAMS:
Yeah, but statues aren't necessarily
art. What I'm trying to say is that if you took your light
pieces and put them on I25th Street there would be a
certain amount of exposure to your community, but
would that exposure make the pieces relevantto the community-the total Black community and not just the
kids you're working with?
MR. LLOYD:
It's relevant to the Black community if
they can identify with it. If I put up a statue of Stokely
Carmichael, like, people are going to identify with that.
MR. WILLIAMS:
But then by the same token I can take
a newspaper clipping of Martin Luther King and blow
it up and everyone will identify, but I can't necessarily
call that art.
MR.
LLOYD:
MR.
WILLIAMS:
No, I wouldn'tcall that art either.
It's a higheraestheticthat we're talk-
ing about.
LLOYD:
Of courseit is-I'm a professionalartist,
you know.I'm talkingabouta certainformof art that's
meaningful.
MR. BEARDEN:
Tom, in otherwords,you'resayingthat
you want to direct your effortstowardthe Black community,and the merefact thatyou arethereandmaking
your work accessibleand in a certainsensedirectingit
to them wouldclassifythe workas Blackart. This work
could take any form?
MR. LLOYD:
Yes. It could be kineticor light sculpture,
it could be painting,it could be anything,if the person
who does it has these thingsin mind.
MR. LAWRENCE:
We're involved in many problems
here. I agreewith Mr. Beardenthat economicproblems
lead into the professionalones. Somehowwe've missed
one very importantthing- governmentinvolvementin
art. If we go backabout thirty yearswe'llfind that some
of the greatestprogress,economic,professional,and so
on, was made then, by the greatestnumberof artistsnot only Negro artistsbut white onesas well. The greatest exposurefor the greatestnumberof peoplecameduring this periodof governmentinvolvementin the arts.
That is what manyprofessionalorganizations
like Artists
the
theater
and
so
have
been
on,
groups,
Equity,
trying
to do. The governmenthasmadestabsat it - you've got
variouscommitteesandthey'vegivenstipends,but nothing massivelike the thing thirty yearsago. I thinkwhat
we need is a massivegovernmentinvolvementin the arts
- by municipalgroupsor by the state or by privateorganizationsor by museumslike the Metropolitan.What
we need is moreconcernwith the philosophyof socialism
- that's the only way we'regoing to achievethis sort of
progress,and we, the Negro artists,are going to benefit
by this.
That leadsme into anotherthing. I think we must be
very carefulnot to isolateourselves,becausemanyof the
thingswe'retalkingaboutnot only pertainto the Negro
artist but pertainto the artist generally.If they're accomplishedwe will all benefitby them.
I also think that many of these problemswe're mentioning have to be solved individually.You may feel,
Mr. Lloyd, and I may feel that we have to work in a
community that's predominatelyNegro, like Harlem.
Othersmay feel that we will benefitto a greaterdegree
by workingoutsideof the communityand being (this is
an unfortunateterm) "integratedinto the mainstream"
of the overallnationalcommunity.
MR.
250
LLOYD:
Yeah, but haven'twe been integratedfor
so long? I mean, where are we now? We're here, you
know, talkingabout the bad situationwe're in because
we've been integrated.
MR. LAWRENCE:
Who's been integrated?We've never
been integrated.
MR. LLOYD:
There's never beenany realunity amongst
the Black artists.
MR.
MR. LAWRENCE:
Oh sure there's been, man, you don't
know your history. I think Black artistshad a greater
degreeof unity when I was a youngsterthan they have
now. ProbablyMr. Woodruffcan give you a better account of this sincehe's olderthanI am, but at any rate,
right after the Reconstructionand maybe before,you
had variousart communitiesamongyour Negro artists.
You had your Walkergroup, your Darktowersgroup,
whichwasa very tight
you hadyourNegro Renaissance,
There
were
cultural
organization.
groups- maybetoo isobut
did
have them, even more than you do
lated,
you
now. I'm not saying this was a totally good thing, but it
had its good aspects.
What were some of the good aspects and
MR. LLOYD:
what were some of the bad?
One of the good things was that there
MR. LAWR ENCE:
was a community of artists who had a spiritual relationship, I guess you'd call it. And there were a few paternal
organizations like the Harmon Foundation that would
help the Negro artist. One of the bad aspects was that
maybe we never attained the top degree of professional
status because of the economic aspects of the situation.
There was no way for artists to make a living except for
a few people who were teaching in Negro colleges, and
artists could never get into the economic mainstream.
But aside from that, this community relationship was
very good, and it existed then more than it does now.
MR. LLOYD:
Well, I haven't heard about it. I never read
about it in school or anywhere.
think the young people today don't
MR. LAWRENCE:I
know these things because there isn't that kind of interest.
MR. LLOYD:
It's not there isn't an interest - the material's not available to them. How could one hear about
this group you're talking about? How could one learn
about it? Certainly not by coming in this museum and
buying a book.
MR. HUNT:
I've seen this material in the Schomburg
Collection [the branch of the New York Public Library
on I35th Street].
Even that collection is not that publicized.
MR. LLOYD:
MR. HUNT:
Well, I must say you sort of want everybody
to bring it and put it in your lap.
I want it to be whereI'm at.
The kind of thing JakeLawrenceis talking
about was going on in Chicagoduring the WPA days.
There was the South Side CommunityArt Center, for
instance.
It's interestingto seehow thingshavegoneoneway at
one point and anotherway at anotherpoint. After the
wara fewNegroartistsweremoreintegratedin the larger
scene,and now thingsare sort of going backward- Tom
Lloydisgettingmoreandmoreidentifiedwith theNegro
community,he's sort of going backinto it. The kind of
historythat JakeLawrenceis outlininggives you a kind
of perspective,somethingthat you can startfrom- like
maybenot makingthe mistakesof the past and helping
you developthis ideaof makingyour art relevantto the
Negro community.
I must say I think you're talkingabout two different
things.Okay, you'rea Blackartistand living in a Black
community.That's fine. Whetheryour art is Black or
not doesn'tmakeany difference.I think you needlessly
confuse the issues by insisting that there's something
aboutliving in a Blackcommunitythat makesyour art
Black.That'sjust not true.
I'm not just talkingabout me. The white
MR. LLOYD:
hasn't
acceptedBlack artistsfor years and
community
not
even readyto now, really.And so
years,and they're
I'm not just an artist. ThereforeI'm a Black artist. If
whitesocietyis not going to acceptmy work,I'm a Black
artist.I'm not a white artist.
MR.
LLOYD:
MR.
HUNT:
MR.
LAWRENCE:
I've seen a couple of your pieces and
I would put it this way: I think you are an artistwho
happensto be Black, but you'renot a Blackartist.See,
that'sthe difference.
MR. LLOYD:
No, I'm a Blackartistwho has refusedto
be conditioned...
Wait a minute.From what I've seen
MR. LAWRENCE:
of your work-although you may be a terrificartistthere'sno possibleway thatI canseeanyonein the Black
communityrelatingto your work.They may respondto
it aesthetically,they may feel that it's a terrificpiecebut I can'tsee how anyonewouldrelateto it, andI don't
see why they should.
MR. LLOYD:
They would relateto it if they knew that
I am Black.That'svery important.
That'snot importantin a workof art.
MR. LAWRENCE:
It's importantto Blackpeople,you know.
MR. LLOYD:
I'm not only concernedwith art. With me art is a secondarything.
I think you're beggingthe question
MR. LAWRENCE:
here and you're makingan excusethat you don't have
to make.You can be a very fine artistandI thinkyou'll
be contributing.There'sno reasonwhy you haveto paint
or work in a certainway, and have the imageof Blacknesswrittenon your work to be a fine artist.
MR. LLOYD:
It doesn'thave to be writtenon. But don't
tell me that Blackpeoplecan'trelateto my work.When
they seeme andthey seemy work,I knowwhatthey say.
They say, "Dig it, a Blackcat did that."And that means
somethingto them, I know it does.
MR. WILLIAMS: But what happens when you're not
there?
LLOYD:
I'm talkingabout my work being meaningful to Blackpeople,and that'svery important.
MR. BEARDEN:
Supposethe Black communitydidn't
acceptyourworkandthe whitecommunitydid. Suppose
you had been acceptedby the white community,fully
accepted.Wouldyou havegone to the Blackcommunity
to showyour work if you had that kind of acceptance?
Think aboutit.
MR. LLOYD:
I've thoughtabout that before.I've made
it - I'm makinga living off my art, a pretty good living.
I can just keep my mouth shut and go aheadand make
niceconstructionsfor peopleto buy. But I'm not talking
about me. I'm talkingabout Black artists.I'm talking
aboutBlackartistsin the past,Blackartistsin the future.
Simplybecausethey'reBlack,therearemillionsof roadblocksin front of them.
MR. GILLIAM:
I think I worrymoreabout the quality
of the experiencecomingto the Blackcommunity.And
I think there is a need to raisethe visualorientationof
the Black community.During the riotsin Washington,
whenthe whitesdidn'tcomein fromthe suburbs,gallery
attendancefellwayoff.If Washingtonhasa sixtypercent
majorityof Blackpeople,why doesmuseumattendance
fall down when somethinghappensso the whites don't
go? It's easy to see that we could easily hustle up to
Harlemor over to i4th Streetand put up a lot of structuresthatwouldbe meaningful.But instead,isn'tit that
museumsas suchhave not servedthe total community?
Why can't museumsreallyemphasizethe kind of programsthat will bringa personfromwherehe is to where
the betterfacilityis?Andwhenhe'stherewhy can'tyou
make him actuallywelcome?This is the kind of point
we shouldpursue,not dwellon "artmeaningfulto Black
people."Whatwe shouldbe talkingaboutis the quality
of aestheticexperiencesavailableto personswithin the
Black community,and raisingthe level of this quality.
But let's not forgetaboutwhathasgone before,let's not
forget about Black history.In fact, let's emphasizethis
more.
MR.
25I
I think that's very true. And I think
BEARDEN:
what Jakewas sayingabout the communityspiritof the
HarlemArtistsGuildwastrue.This is what it did forme:
I went to the firstmeeting:I wassurprisedto see fifty or
sixty peoplethere.I hadn'tknowntherewerethat many
Negro artistsin New York!
When they did the newsreleaseon Tom for his show,
it wasstatedthat the HarlemStudioMuseumis the first
museumin Harlem.That's not true! There was one on
I25th Street and LenoxAvenueall duringthe thirtiesJakeand I showedat it. It wasn'tonly a museum,but
they had teaching there, workshops,textile weaving,
lithography.
That'swhat we need now.
MR. LLOYD:
I can appreciatewhat you say, but I
MR. LAWRENCE:
thinkyou'regoing to fall into a trapif you pursuethis to
the degreeto whichyou are pursuingit. Becauseyou're
going to havepeoplefromdowntownsaying,"Well,let's
give these peopleuptowna little somethingand we can
forget about them for a coupleof years."
We aremore involvednow- it may not be to the degree that we think ideal, but we aremore involvednow
in the total communitystructurethan we've ever been.
I think all of us will agreewith that. But I think the
thing for us to pursue- and I repeatthis- is not only to
get massiveaid and help within the Negro community,
but not to tear us awayfrom the main community,not
allowingpeopledowntownto say,asI saidbefore,"Well,
let'sgive thema little somethingandwe canforgetabout
them."
I'm not interestedin what they think.No,
MR. LLOYD:
done
haven't
anythingup to this point. And you
they
I don't think we are involved.
involved.
we're
that
say
I think therearea lot of Blackartiststhat aren'tmaking
a living and that arenot communicatingwith the people
in the ghetto. I mean like nothing'shappening.So if
someformof separatismis going to makethingshappen,
I'm all for it. And I think it will.
I like the things you were sayingabout the various
programsin the thirties,Blacksbeing together.I don't
know what came of it, but I'm sure some good things
came of it. And I'm all for that again.
What cameof it was ...
MR. BEARDEN:
MR. LAWRENCE:
People were involved. It broughta
camaraderie...
It broughta greaterdegree of proMR. WOODRUFF:
fessionalism.
MR. BEARDEN:
Jakewas about the first artistwho got
out of the Harlemcommunity,who got a one-manshow
downtown.But beforethat, our mindsdidn't thinkpast
MR.
252
oth Street. This waslike a customsbarrierback then.
LLOYD:
What I'm after is havingmy little Black
to
girlexposed art.Andif shewantsto be a potterI don't
want her to be in that one-to-threeratio.Theremay be
just three Black potters here in New York. I want to
improveon that. Like a whole lot.
I
MR.
MR.
WILLIAMS:
It seems to me that you haven't really
touchedon one of the pointsMr. Gilliambroughtup the quality of that pottery or the quality of that sculpture or the quality ...
MR. LLOYD:
Whatdo you mean,"quality"!They have
to be exposed.What makesyou think that the quality
is going to be any less becausethey'reBlack?
MR.
WILLIAMS:
I don't think I'm implying that. I
think what I'm trying to say is that the nationalism
you're talkingabout is a very dangerousthing.
MR.
GILLIAM:I
would say that before I looked all over
New Yorkfor Blackpottersand couldfind only threeand beforeI kept somebodyfrommakingpots and being
turnedon by it - is that I'd findme a potter first.I don't
think I'd worryabouthis color;I think I'd worrymore
about the qualityof the experience.
LLOYD:
Look, I'm worried about the quality too,
but I am worried about the fact that there's only three
Black potters here in New York. That has a lot of implications, and I don't think you're facing up to them.
MR. HUNT:
Well, you know, you could do something
else. You could hire a white potter while you looked for
another Black potter, and then fire the white potter and
hire the Black. Then you would show your people something about you.
MR. LLOYD:
Perhaps it would, and perhaps that might
have been like an idea I had. But I'm more interested
in young Black kids having an opportunity just to be
a potter.
What you may be running into is the
MR. GILLIAM:
same difficulty they had in one of the summer programs
in Washington, looking for a Black sculptor. You can
name a number of them, but they'd already be doing
something beside practicing sculpture. I think whenever
you look for Black potters, Black painters, Black artists,
they'll already be doing something else.
At the same time there are a lot of proMR. LLOYD:
in
New York, and even if you're a profeshere
grams
sional, capable Black artist you can't even get a job in
the program. Because, number one, most of the cultural
programsaren't run by Black people. I think that's very
important. I think Black people and Black communities
should control Black programs. They're the only people
that can really, really relate to Black people.
MR.
WILLIAMS:
We're getting involved in sociology
again,aren'twe?
MR. LLOYD:
Well, so what?
I think it's pretty hard to keep the
MR. GILLIAM:
wholequestionawayfromsociology.
MR. BEARDEN:
Let me sumup. Tom feels that a lot of
the professionalproblemsof the Blackartisthave to do
with his relationto the community.And he feels that
his, and a numberof Black artists',work shouldbe directed to makingthe Black communitymore art-conscious.He feels,also,by the merefact of his beinga Black
artistworkingin the Blackcommunity,he couldreferto
his work- or workdone by anyoneof a similarmind- as
Black art. Now Mr. Williamshas challengedthat. He
feels that the Black artistshouldn'tlimit his horizonto
just one particularcommunity,but shouldtry to expose
his workto a greateraudience.I thinkwe all have come
to the conclusion,however,that therearedire economic
and professionalproblemshinderingthe Black artist in
the full expressionof his potential.Theseproblemsstem
fromsocialconditions,fromthe fact that the Blackartist
is not completelyinvolvedin the mainstream.
He doesn't
go to East Hampton,and he'snot aroundthe restof the
artists.It was broughtout that the few peoplewho buy
don't alwaysconsiderhim, and he has not been able to
get his workup to highermonetarylevels.
Unlesssomeonehasanythingto add to this discussion
of economicand professionalquestions,I think we can
go on to our thirdpoint- the aestheticproblem.I think
some of the things that you were talkingabout, Tom,
also involved questionsof craft and identity. I throw
the discussionopen.
MR. WOODRUFF: This is one of the mostimportantand
probablyone of the most difficultto solve. I think we
shouldclarifywhat we meanby aestheticproblems,and
problemsof self-imageor identity in termsof the topic
we areworkingwith - "Blackart."We'vebeentold that
a recognizablyBlackuniquenessin the art productis not
necessarilyessential.There is such a thing as a "Black
Anglo-Saxon,"and then there are those who champion
the notion of the Black heritage-who think that the
Negroes' aesthetic image should come from his Black
Africanancestry.I don't think there'sanythingwrong
with this, becausewe who are taking the traditional
formsof Westernart as a startingpoint are doing the
same thing-we are beginningwith a form from which
we may createa form.There is also the idea of substantially good art-and this is what Sam has been talking
about-coming from the soil. But the soil of the Black
communitymust not only be productiveand rich in its
MR.
resources,but those who till that soil and try to raisea
harvest- and that is the artist- mustcomein therewith
some realartisticinsights.I don't believe that the subject matter,the hot-headedart of the moment,is of any
consequence:the fact that the artistsget a kind of frustrationor angeroff their chest is fine. But the creation
of artis somethingelseagain.Andwe may be quiteprone
to acceptanythingthat is enjoyed,in any kind of sense,
regardlessof its qualities,as Blackart. But it is not. As I
see it, you startwith a concept,a thematicidea.And out
of that you've got to createa form. And I believe the
formmust embodyandconvey that ideavisually,physically.Aboveall, the sensibilityof the artist,hisbeliefsand
his convictionsand his aspirations,must come through
and control it. This is how any art is produced,be it
black,white, green,or blue. If thereis to be a Blackart
- not just somethingmadeby a Blackartist- theremust
be certainoutermanifestationsso it can be identified,as
you can identify Orientalart or pre-Columbianart or
Eskimoart. (But I don't meanin any sensea primitive
art: righthereI rejectthe term "primitive"in referring
to Africanart or any such ethnic form.)
More importantto the work of art are the energies,
the efforts,and the deep insightsthat comefromthe artist as he worksthroughwhat he has experiencedin life.
In the musicalworld there is Leontyne Price, who
sings like a bird. And this has nothing to do with her
color. There are others, like MahaliaJackson-whose
singingyou wouldcall Blacksinging.I do think thereis
a somethingfound in the worksof the Black artist that
is absentin the artof otherpeople.LangstonHughesused
to definethisas comingfromthe folkways,fromthe special quality that we as Black people have. But I think
that, in the finalanalysis,you've got to createart- art of
the highestpossibleaestheticlevel, in whichyour means
are what your goalsare. They are very highly personal.
We have a young man here, RichardHunt, who I
think is a great sculptor.This man is an artist. It has
nothingto do with race;it is that realspark,unfathomable, and unidentifiable,that is deeply felt. The power
of his sculptureis unassailable.Is this Negro art? Is it
done by a Negro?It may very well be. Who knows?It's
powerful,convincing,compellingart. And this is what
I mean. It isn't black, white, green, or blue, but it's
greatart.
I think the Black artist is facedwith the problemof
almostworkingfrom scratch.If he doesn'tresortto the
traditionalsourcesthat are available,he's got to start
fromscratch.And this is tough. If he wants to produce
a uniqueartform,he'sgot to ignoreeveryotherartform
253
that has been used as a springboardfor other art forms.
This is a tough job.
I haven't answeredany questions.My question has
never beensolvedthroughoutmy life and neverwill be.
It's a continuousandongoingsearch.But the searchmust
be qualifiedby this constantand ongoingemphasison
quality,of the highestpossiblelevel thatyou canachieve.
MR. BEARDEN:
They say that abstractexpressionismaction painting-is the first indigenousAmericanart
exported,and imitated by artistsall aroundthe world.
No critic that I have read has ever aligned this spark
with jazz music.But that's the feelingyou get from it:
involvement,personality,improvisation,rhythm,color.
What I'm trying to point out is that Black culture is
involvedfarmoreinto the wholefabricof Americanlife
thanwe realize.But it is up to us to find out the contribution that we have made to the whole culturalfabric
of Americanlife. No one else is going to do it. I look at
baseballa lot; I see a man hit a home run- he comesin
and slapsthe hand of the other fellow who'swaitingat
the plate.Thisstartedwith Negro ballplayers,andeverybody does it now.
MR.
WOO D RUF F:
I've had lots of arguments on the par-
allel aestheticsof music and of art. I asked one of my
friends,"Justwhat is so Negroid about this Black, socalledNegro music?"And he saidthat it's the little dissonant note at the end of each piece that makes the
uniquenessof Negro music. When a band winds up a
piece, they alwayswind up on a minor note, even if
they're playing in a majorkey. They leave you there.
That sustained,suspendedmomentis in the musicalstyle,
in the literarystyle, it's in the dramacertainly- their
timingin dramaticactionis just terrific.This is a quality
that is almostunexplainable,but it's alwaysidentifiable.
It's not somethingthat a critic can point out-"That's
it, right there." It's the total- the total sensationthat
you get.
MR. LLOYD:
The thing that worriesme, Mr. Woodruff,
is that you seemto singleout individuals.You talkabout
a few Black artistswho have made it and so I get the
ideathat they'resomesortof AbrahamLincolns.Perhaps
they are.But I don't think that'sanythingto point with
any great pride about. I still maintainthat Black art
shouldbe separate.I feel like this is the only way for us
to make it.
We were talkingbeforeabout institutions,and someone mentioned this institution.I feel that the Metropolitanis an institutionfor white people, not for Black
people.So therefore,if we'regoing to be equalwith the
white artist, where are we going to show?Where have
254
we shown?What kind of facilitiesare open to us? What
gallerieswill accept us? There are none that will and
none that have. Don't mentionone or two people- I'm
not interestedin one or two people.I'm interestedin the
millionsof Black peoplewho want to be artists.Therefore I maintainthat therehas to be a Black art. This is
what we need, if it wouldpull us out of this thing here.
We haven'tgot it from the white culturalpowerstructure. They haven'tgiven it to us.
MR. WOODRUFF:
Well, when I mention a man like
RichardHunt it's not to put him on a pedestal...
MR. LLOYD:
We don't want a pedestal.He's one man.
MR. WOODRUFF:
I'm a visualman,not a verbalperson,
andwhenI mentionedHunt'ssculptureI wantedto suggest a visualimage,to makemy taska little easierbecause
I cannotexplainin wordsthat which I alwayssee.
MR. LLOYD:
What I want to know is if there are two
hundredRichardHunts, whereare they going to show
theirwork?
MR.
LAWRENCE:
Well, I'll go halfway with you, Tom.
I will say that I'd like to have the opportunityfor a personwith talentto makehimselfinto an artistassuccessful
as RichardHunt. But I don't thinkyou'll ever have two
hundredRichardHuntsor two hundredThomasLloyds,
becauseeveryoneis just not that talented.
MR. LLOYD:
No, I mean to equate them with the two
hundredwhite artistswho have the opportunity.
MR. WOODRUFF:
That I'll buy.
MR. GILLIAM:
We're necessarilyspeakingof a job for
the future.We've been few in number;the injusticeof
the whole socialsituationhasmadeit so that we arefew
in number.
We need not only to develop Black craftsmen,but
alsoBlackhistorians,Blackcritics.We needmoreBlackownedart galleries:let's talkaboutmovinginto business
-art is a business.This is a thing that concernsus. If
we'relookingfor ways art-or Blackart-can be developed within a community,then let's talk about all the
things that are reallynecessaryto develop it. Why is it
that therearen'tBlackhistoriansor Blackaestheticians,
asidefrom people like Hale who have had to double to
do the job? Why aren't these professionsbeing encouragedat Blackcolleges?Why can't placeslike that make
their specialresponsibilitytakingcareof the Black heritage?They shouldinvestigateexactlywhat the factsare:
what we have accomplished,and whetheror not we're
going forwardfromwherewe are now.
MR. LLOYD:I
thinkthat sortof programwouldbe very
important.I mentionedan organizationcalledBlackVisual Environments,and part of the thing we want to do
is to bring Black art-and I mean Blackart-into the
publicschools,for theseyoung Blackkids to talk to the
Blackartists,to try to formsomesortof dialogue,to be
thereand be seen,to showthat he'sBlack.This is important to the youngBlackkids.It's neverhappenedbefore
andI thinkthat it's importantthat it doeshappen.These
Black artistsshould be paid for it. I'd also like to see
Blackart showstravelingto the South, to Blackcolleges,
to makethesepeopleawareof what'shappeningin Black
art today- okay, I'll say art today.
I'd equallylike to seesomeof thoseBlack
MR. GI LLIAM:
program.This kind
collegeshavingan artist-in-residence
of programwouldbe terrificallyimportant,becauseoften
a personsuffersbecausehis experiencesand information
arelockedinto his regionalenvironment.
We'rereallytalkingaboutan uplifting,aboutproviding uswith a baseof freedomin general.We can takecare
of business.The impactof ourtimesmakesit individually
importantthat we don't go backan inch, a centimeter,
but that we move on. Theseare the kindsof thingsthat
shouldbe part of our experiences,and that shouldindicate the pathswe should take.
MR. BEARDEN:
I understandthere'sgoing to be a big
showof Blackartistsopeningin Minneapolis.William,if
you went to this show, could you look at the paintings
and the sculptureand find somethingthat identifiedthe
artistsas Black?
I've neverseena piecethat I couldsay
MR. WILLIAMS:
that about positively. I've seen a great many pieces I
think are commendableby Black artists,but I didn't
attachthat specialtitle or specialcategoryto them, and
I don't think I ever will.
It seemsto me that it would be fine if an art form or
a thingcouldbe createdthat wasso uniquelyBlackthat
it wasn'tnecessaryto have Tom's picturein front of it.
But it hasn'tbeen done. You talk about the need for a
Black male image:what you're really talkingabout is
thissociologicalthing.The Blackmaleimageis one thing,
but I wonderwhat happensto his work- or any workten, fifteen,yearsfromnow when the Blackmaleimages
aren'tstandingin frontof it andgivinga wholerundown
about what it's about, why I'm doing it, why I'm participatingin the community.If we're going to build a
culturalbasisthat is relevantto the Black community,
it shouldbe a culturalbasisthat'srelevantwhen Tom is
gone,whenwe'reall gone, somethingthat'sso embedded
in quality that it not only standsin Harlembut stands
anyplace.That'sa goal to shoot for.
One of the thingsthat Tom's addressinghimselfto is
the necessity,in termsof the socialstrife that we're in
now, to asserta lot of Blackthings.I canagreewith that
on one level, but on anotherI must talk about quality
as Mr. Gilliamhas,and what the level of the experience
of "Blackart" will be, and what exposureto it will do
ten or fifteenyearsfrom now. If I exposefive hundred
or sixhundredkidsto Blackart now,my hopeis that the
Black art will be of such a level that I will be instilling
some type of aestheticor valueswithin those kids that
they can drawon yearsfrom now.
MR. LLOYD:
That's good, but you see it hasn't happened. If we're going to acceleratethat kind of thing
we have to do it now.
Being separateand makingBlackart might possibly
be the answer.I'm not sayingfor sureit is, but I believe
it is. All I know is that nothing has happenedin the
past. It's a changethat hasgot to happen.
MR. BEARDEN:
I can't agreewith your argumentthat
has
nothing happenedin the past, Tom. Two yearsago
I went to the Grand Central GalleriesbecauseI had
heardso much about the worksof this man Henry O.
Tanner.I lookedat his picturesand I must concludehe
is one of the threeor fourgreatpaintersof America,the
only religiouspainter who in my judgment compares
with Rouault.This museumhad two of his pictures,but
they sold them.
The reasonyou can havea placelike the Metropolitan
is that you can bringart into this countryduty free. It
was a Blackwoman,EdmoniaLewis,who went to Congresswith W. W. Story and a few other artists,to have
the lawchangedso artworkscouldcomein withoutduty.
I couldgo on and tell you the thingsthat Blackartists
have done; so don't say nothing'shappened- it's just
been obscured.
The fact about this Black womanis fine,
MR. LLOYD:
but this is still a white museum,Blackpeople still don't
come here. Don't mention individuals,like Tanner.I'd
like to know more about him, but I haven't had the
opportunityto learnabout him. I'm not alone in this.
Don't tell me progresshasbeenmadebecauseof Tanner.
Sure, therehas been someprogress,but I want to know
about twenty Tanners.We're a whole race of people,
andyou know,whenyou talk aboutone, I know there's
somethingwrong.
MR. WOODRUFF:
Tom, why don't Black people come
to this museum?
MR. LLOYD:
They haven't been exposedto art. That's
the numberone thing:they haven'tbeenexposedto art.
They don't knowaboutBlack art, and if they did know
about it, people in the streetswould know that Black
artistsareshowinghere or at any othermuseum.That's
255
our fault, and part of society'sfault.
LAWRENCE:
You know, there'ssomethingI can't
understandhere, and it keeps botheringme. It's a term
that'sbeenusedoverandoveragain,"Blackart."I don't
understandthat. I thinkwe may aswell cut out the sentimental slush. "Blackart" meansmaybe somethinglike
"Blackart of Africa"or somethingproducedin some of
the earlierdays of America,in some of the ironworks
throughoutthe Southor thingslike that,whichcameout
of the experienceof a culturalgroupof peoplewho happen to havebeenAfricans.Hereit wouldbe morecorrect
for us to say "artby Blackpeople,"but not "Blackart."
When I say "Blackart" I mean the Black
MR. LLOYD:
experienceon a total scale: being Black, our heritage,
Africa,living in the Blackcommunity.
It is a total experience. We've been talkMR. GILLIAM:
the
visual
artsbecausewe'repaintersandsculpabout
ing
tors, but we must realizethat there are other formsof
art- theaterand music- that are much more capableof
havinga definite"Black"personality.We have to recognize that it's his total experiencethat influenceswhat a
persondoes. And it may not affectonly him, but some
other personregardlessof skin color: think of the influence of Africanart on Picasso,for instance,or on
Modigliani.
We artistsshoulddiscussart, and not leave it to the
civil rightsworkersor politicians.We have a feelingfor
it, and we don't belittle it.
MR.
MR.
LLOYD:
Well, being Black...
Is great.
I can't imaginean artist-a Black artistfunctioningwithout knowinghe's Black,without being
concernedaboutwhat'shappeningto us, without being
concernedaboutour very lives.We'reBlack.No matter
what kind of workyou do, you'reinfluencedby all these
things.
MR. LAWRENCE:
Is this alwaysevident looking at the
work?
person's
MR. LLOYD:
Maybe not. I never saidit's evident lookwork. I'm just sayingit's Black art.
someone's
at
ing
I can't agreewith that.
MR. WOODRUFF:
He's calling"Blackart"anythingdone
MR. BEARDEN:
by Black artists.
I just can't see how something is
MR. LAWRENCE:
"Black art." What you find are shows that deal with
some philosophyof art-minimal art or this art or that
art-and the artistsin each of those showswill belong
to many ethnic groups,Black artistsamongthem.
MR. GILLIAM:
By giving a show a kind of sociological
title, you know, or a political theme, you can make it
MR.
GILLIAM:
MR.
LLOYD:
a communityexpression.Look at the Sixty-sixSignsof
Neon, a show broughtfrom Watts, done by people in
Watts. Even there the reigninginfluencewas someone
like Ed Kienholz, becausethis is somethingthat's part
of the Los Angelesscene. I think that in certainareas
you cansay that art cancoexistwith the socialproblems.
MR. LLOYD:
Has it? I mean, what's happenedin the
past?
MR. GILLIAM:
I think the past is perhapsmuch more
importantthan what is going on now. Number one is
the fact that every Black artist that painted has been
involvedwith my situationin America-me and what's
happeningandconcernfor the Negro.Thiswasthe overwhat the artistwasconcernedwith,
ridingconsideration:
and what I looked for as a kid, and what I dealt with
when I was paintingfiguratively.But later on, you're a
matureartist,maybea greatone, if you can personalize
yourself,move from identificationwith somethingoutside yourselfto your own thing.
MR. BEARDEN:
A lot of this experienceis knit with
isn't
it?
For instance,you were saying in the
identity,
for
prospectus your show that the artist that turnsyou
on is Agostini.Every artist that you mentionedwas a
white artist.Now if you are this concerned,why didn't
you say that JakeLawrenceturnedyou on?
MR. LLOYD:
But JakeLawrencedidn't turnme on ...
he didn't turn me off either.
MR. BEARDEN:
No, I'm not sayingthat. I wouldexpect
that when the young kid who workedwith you has an
exhibit, say four or five yearsfrom now, if you've done
your work right, he's going to say that the thing that
turnedhim on was the experiencehe had workingwith
Tom Lloyd. This is differentfrom the stand you take
now, becauseeveryoneyou studiedwith, the peoplewho
turnedyou on, are all white.
MR. LLOYD: Yes, that's just the point - that's the thing
that bothersme: that thereweren'tany BlackAgostinis
around.Part of my function is concernfor my people,
not just getting in a little cornerand painting a little
picture.
MR. BEARDEN:
That's what we are saying, but we've
moved back into the questionof identity. It all has to
do with the artist.
MR. LLOYD:
Yes, Blackidentity, Blackart. That'swhy
I say "Blackart."
MR. GILLIAM:
The FrederickDouglassArt Institutein
Washington,whichstartedout as the Museumof African
Art, puts Africansculptureside by side with German
expressionist
paintings,printsby ModiglianiandPicasso,
and thingslike that, and bringsout a senseof identity
256
Photograph: Reginald McGhee
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very strongly.I want to knowhow Tom feelsabout this
kind of thing.
MR. LLOYD:
That'sfine with me.
You know,so muchneedsto be done.Therehas to be
sucha tremendousefforton the part of the Blackartist,
on the part of the culturalpowerstructure.I'm not too
sure,Mr. Lawrence,that the governmentis going to get
involvedwith the Blackartist;the governmentisn't going to give you somethingwhen you're going to turn
aroundand hurt them with what we create.
think the real thing that's bugging
MR. WOODRUFF:I
Tom is very evident. We want thesedoorsopen so that
the Negro, the Black man, can move in and shareand
sharealike.But the topicwe'rediscussingis the aesthetic
problemsthat the Blackartistfaces.
I think we need a definitionof aesMR. LAWRENCE:
thetics.Are we talkingabout space,line, form,or something much more broadand abstract-"experience"or
somethinglike that?
MR. WOODRUFF:
Well, I used the term becausethe
seems to suggestsomethingthat is
"Black
art"
phrase
differentin its structureand its formalmanifestation.
in termsof economWe've beenmakingdifferentiations
ics, socialimpact,galleryfacilities,museumsbeingclosed
to Black art, and so forth, and I think this should be
consideredin termsof whetherthe art reallydoes have
someparticular,specialform.
MR.
HUNT:
Well, "the aesthetics of Black art" is a prob-
lem I reallydon't addressmyself to, in either my work
or my thinking.The problemof the Negro in termsof
the contemporarysituationin art- showingin museums
and galleriesand all those things-seems to be more or
lesstied up with the prevailingcurrentsin art itself.For
instance,an artistwho'sworkingwith kinetic, light, or
minimalthingsmight have a better chanceof breaking
into the scenethansomebodywho'spaintingfiguratively.
All these things don't really seem that much different
from the problemsthat white artistsor any other kinds
of artistshave. Therearecertainkindsof socialbiaseson
the part of some of the establishmentpeople that you
mentionedthat might influencethings, but you know,
I reallydon't think those thingsare all that important.
I don't reallylike to go into definitions,but in termsof
my feelingaboutmy relationshipto my art I sortof separateit frommy life as a Blackman in America.Given
I'm a Blackman in America,I live fromday to day and
take thingsas they come. In termsof my work,I have a
certainkind of ideal that I want to attainand I findmyself beingable to do that as a Blackman in Americaand
living in a Black community.
258
As Hale was talking about things that characterize
Blackart, and art growingout of the soil, it cameto my
mind that I'm kind of regionalist.I come from Chicago
and I like living there. Listeningto Tom's description
of life here, I feel lucky that I was bornin Chicagoand
haven't had to contend with the sort of problemsthat
exist here. I come froma ruralbackground:my father's
from the ruralSouth, my mother'sfrom the ruralMidwest. I rememberthe thing that impressedme about
visitingmy father'srelativesin Georgia,one timewhenI
wasa kid, wasthat they hadsomelandthat they cleared,
and they took the logs to the sawmilland built their
houseout of them. It's kind of nice thinkingabout how
my unclecoulddo all that stuff;I thinkaboutthingslike
that- andmaybethisis whatTom is talkingabout,being
able to identify with positivemale images.It's like the
things you read about pioneersdoing. Of course they
were living in Georgia,segregatedand all, but at the
sametime they couldexercisethisabilityto makethings.
I seemyselfasa sculptoras beinga personmakingthings.
I may not make as good a sculptureas I want to make,
but those are my limitations,nothing ever comes out
exactlythe way you want it. At the sametime I feel like
I cando anythingI want to do. That has to do with family experiencesand schoolexperiences.I had Negro art
teachers-Mr. Johnson,Mrs. Currin-who encouraged
me and urgedme to go on to the ChicagoArt Institute.
Then I had other instructorswho were white and they
encouragedme too.
It's a combinationof things.I don't see how a Negro
in America,even with segregatedsituations,can escape
having influencesthat come from his family, from his
backgroundin the ghetto or whereverhe happensto be,
fromhis formaleducation,fromhis exposureto the arts.
The thing gets pretty much mixed up, and the idea of
separatingout these experiences,good or bad, Black or
not, seemssometimesratheruselessandsometimesrather
tiresome.
Well, I don't think so. You know what I
Mr.
think,
Hunt, is that you are a conditionedBlack
man. I think you are obliviousto what'shappening.
MR.
LLOYD:
MR.
GILLIAM:
Tom, I think you're acting more for the
conditions...
MR.
LLOYD:
That may be so, but I've got to say what
I think.
MR.
HUNT:
MR.
LLOYD:
That's perfectlyall right.
To me you don't seem like a man con-
cernedwith Black people,with Black kids, with Black
culture.I don't think that entersinto yourfeelings.And
that bothersme, that bothersthe hell out of me. You
know,whenI thinkof an artist,I thinkof a Blackartist,
not a Blackwhite artistor someonewho hasgiven in to
this kind of conditioningthat the white peoplehaveput
us in. I have childrenand I want the best for them, and
if they want to be artists,I want them to have the same
kind of exposureany other kid has. They don't have it
now, so I'm going to make suremine do. I care,I care
about my people and I think this is what every Black
artisthas got to do.
It's erroneousto presupposethat a perMR. GILLIAM:
son who doesn'tfollowa certainphilosophyall the way
doesn'tcareabouthis raceor his kids.We'reall badgered
by these things...
MR. LLOYD:
But this is the time for us to jump in and
bring changesabout, make things happen. And have
someidentity with our own doggonepeople.
It's also the time to distinguishrhetMR. WILLIAMS:
oric from realfacts.
I knowwhat realfacts are, I know what's
MR. LLOYD:
in
hundredyears.
two
happened
MR. WILLIAMS:
I think that we'reall too sophisticated
to accept easilyeverythingyou're saying,but I assume
thosefaultsareyour own, your own way of goingabout
what you'redoing.
I assumethat's the way he-Mr. Hunt-should go
about it, and that it's workedvery well- he's createda
thing that is uniquelybeautiful.But in my own case,I
find it very hardindeed to think of myself in termsof
doing Blackart, becauseit becomessuchan anonymous
thing. I find that I'm morehung up in my own frustrations and my own ego than anything else. When I'm
doing my own thing, I kind of go aboutdoingwhat I'm
doing,andhopefullyI can separatemy dailyfrustrations
on the surfacelevel from what I'm doing. Obviously
you're doing it, Tom, or else you wouldn'tbe working
with lights.WhatI'm tryingto say is that thereare two
levels that any man thinkson, whetherblack,green,or
otherwise.If an artist- a sculptor,musician,orwhatever
- if an artistgets so hung up in socialconditionsand in
what's happeningto him, he winds up in somethingI
call rhetoric.
MR. LLOYD:
That'snonsense.
MR. WILLIAMS:
Rhetoric to me is a point where one
so
involved
that
he's not going forward,he's standgets
still.
I'm
not
ing
condemningwhat you're doing; I'm
that
we're
at a very dangerouspoint. It seemsto
saying
me that the work of the artistat this point is to distinguishwhat'srhetoricandwhat'sprogressandwhat'sfact.
Art by natureis an aristocraticthing ...
MR. LLOYD:
What?
MR. WILLIAMS:
Art has been historically-historically
in the Westernsense- aristocratic.
MR. LLOYD:
That's been the troublewith our culture.
MR.
WILLIAMS:
If you're talking about bringing in an
Easternkind of philosophyof art, then it does become
kindof an anonymousthing.But I don't thinkany of us
are willing to do that. We're still dealingwith art in a
Westernsense;we'renot willingto give it up andgo into
a specialthing.So I thinkyou have to keep that in mind
when you condemnsomeone.
MR.
LLO Y D:
I'm condemning a whole lot of people.
I want to sum this up. Tom, what I
think you'resayingis that you feel the entire tradition
of Westernart is kindof empty now;you thinkwe must
developa certainculturalphilosophyfor the Blackartist.
Things,as they exist now,must be attackedon different
levels- economic,social,perhapseven political.Now, in
thisstruggle,in the civil rightsmovement,very little attentionhasbeengiven to the culturalneedsof the people.
So now let's considerhow the Blackartistrelatesto the
civil rightsmovement.How doeshe, or his work,or his
philosophy,relateto thesepressingproblemsof the Black
peoplein this country?
MR. LAWRENCE:
Well, I think you can relatein any
numberof ways,and the individualartisthas to solve it
in his own way. He may participatethroughthe content
of his work, or by donatinga piece that has no specifically relevantcontent. I know that we all relate to the
civil rightsmovement,and we all make contributions.
We give becausewe want to give. It's an obviousway of
helping,not a spiritualone, but it's a way that has an
immediate,definitebenefit.
MR. WOODRUFF:
Let me say that I've alwaysfelt that
one of the thingsthat we lack in the Blackworldgenerally, not only in the visual arts, is criticalscholarship.
That could do so much for the situationTom is talking
about.ClementGreenberg,forinstance,just aboutmade
JacksonPollock,andtherearemanyothersuchinstances.
We need a writer to make us known.We have no one
who can use the written word except yourself,Romie,
and you'rea painterbasically.Scholarshipfromour college men and othershas gone into the socialmovement
and civil rights.Look at your jazz critics,they'rewhite,
and most of your dramacritics are white. Even your
writers,like Baldwinand so on, aren'tconcernedwith
us. Someyearsago theseBlackwriterswerein Parisand
the Parispresswent to them and said, "Now, we know
aboutyourwriters;whatis the Negroartistdoing?"And
thosefellowscouldn'tsay anything- "I don't knowany
Negro artists"-and they couldn'tanswerthe question.
MR.
BEARDEN:
259
I believe that we need someoneto criticallyand knowledgeablyassessour combinedartisticefforts.There are
few Negroeswho do this, but that scholarshipis what
we need.
And I do think there should be a communalfeeling
amongthe Blackartists,whetheror not we paintor think
alike,or whetherwe sit down and beef like we'redoing
today. Whetherwe meet regularlyor whetherwe just
bumpinto each other in a bar,I think this is necessary,
in order to presentwhat I would call a kind of united
front. When we try to fight this battle singlehandedly
we'relost, we'renot even up to bat.You know,you need
a team to win a ball game;you can't do it with sandlot
techniques.
This hasto do in a very obliqueway with the so-called
culturalmovement,becauseuntil the Negro in Harlem
finallygets a decent place to live and food in his belly,
maybehe'll have no time to go look at our pictures.So
thereforethe whole revolutionis intertwined.
But what I sense is the great need is to have a man
who pointsout to galleriesand museumsthat this artist
is a good one and you shouldhave his work.
MR. WILLIAMS:
After that, I don't know if there's any-
thing I can say. I totally agreewith the idea of uniting
effortswith otherartists,whichis really,reallynecessary.
I don't knowabout othercities, but in New York I feel
an enormousseparationbetweenthe writersand the poets and the painters- peoplearekind of isolatedin their
own corners.
As for the civil rightsstruggle,it's very hard to distinguishwhatyou, on a personallevel,cando. My feeling
is "differentstrokesfor differentfolks."I kind of take it
as it comesand hope that I'm doing the properthing at
the propertime.
Of course there are "different strokes for
MR. GILLIAM:
differentfolks"- someare revolutionists,someare social
changers,somearepoliticians.I wouldsay that what we
of historyanda broad
shouldhelpdevelopis an awareness
culturalexchange,andset up the kindof institutionsthat
would providethe kind of educationalexperiencesthat
would visuallyorient people and make us awareof our
total role.
MR. HUNT:
I can only second that.
MR. WILLIAMS:
Can we add, also, that there should
be some intercitycommunicationas well.
MR.
LLOYD:
I'm just a little shocked because I think
our role as Black artistsis right up there in the front
line and we haven't been there, we haven't even been
heardof.
MR. LAWRENCE:
Now, you speak for yourself, not for
me- I've been there thirty years,you know.
MR. LLOYD: I'm talkingabout unity, I'm not talking
about one artistgoing that way and doing his thing. I
thinkwe shouldbe marching,I thinkwe shoulddo anything. This is part of our life; this civil rightsthing is a
strugglethat hasa lot to do with us, andwe haven'tparticipatedin it at all. I think that'sshameful.We'renot
interestedin the politicallife in the city, the civil rights
struggle.We'rejustdeadandyou knowwe'renot moving.
MR.
LAWRENCE:
MR. LLOYD:
Maybe you're not moving.
Well, I'm glad you're moving.
MR. BEARDEN: I feel that the artist hasto serve a movement the best way he can do it. Now we have a man
here, oldest among us; I don't think anyone has done
more than he and he's done it with his work. I'm not
sayingthis is the only way you can do it, but his works
inspiredme as a kid. This was a contribution,and all of
us aroundthis tablehope we aremakinga contribution.
Maybe we can't all go out and make posters, but we
can developour talentsin the best way we can.
MR. LLOYD: I just say get out and be concerned,and
we're not concerned.If we are, we haven'tlet our concern be known.
MR. BEARDEN:
Let's sum this up. Jacob indicatedthat
in the civil rightsmovementthe artistshoulddo all he
could, in his way, to assistthe developmentand liberation of the people.Hale indicatedcriticismand scholarship, to furtherwhat the Black artistwas trying to do,
wassomethingwhichhad beenlacking.I thinkboth Sam
and Williamfelt that each artist had a commitmentto
the struggle,but this wassomethinghe had to do in the
best way he could. I think Richardagreedto that too.
Tom felt that the strugglefor Black liberationwas allembracingand that we all had to get in thereand pitch,
do whateverwas necessaryto advancethe struggle.
In the discussionwe'vehad todaywe've coveredmany
problems.We'veposedproblems.Only time andhistory
will offer a solution.I think we have made a valuable
contributionhere.It's somethingthat moreartistseverywhereneed to do.
260
Photograph: Reginald McGhee
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