BBC Radio 4 – PM Programme, Thursday 21st November 2013 Presenter, Eddie Mair (EM) Excerpt from broadcasting, 17.40pm‐17.45pm Twenty years ago the idea of millions people driving around in hybrid cars would have seen nuts, but in 1997 Toyota introduced the first mass market hybrid ‐ the Prius ‐ in Japan, and now hybrids are everywhere. So maybe we should pay attention when the New York Times reports from the Tokyo Motor Show: “Hydrogen powered cars are finally being ready for their Prius moment”. The paper said that: “Toyota, maker of the Prius (the first hybrid vehicle to achieve mass market acceptance), on Wednesday unveiled a concept version of a hydrogen fuel cell car that it plans to begin selling around 2015, as the company said. The bright blue sedan is shaped like a drop of water to emphasize that water is the only substance that hydrogen powered cars emit from their tailpipes. Dennis Hayter (DH) chairs the UK Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association. (EM)‐The idea of powering things by hydrogen is not new, is it? (DH)‐Absolutely not. It is, actually, an invention from Sir William Grove just over a century ago. The challenge has been not to achieve it; it’s been to do it in a compact, safe and completely reliable way. (EM)‐What do you think of what Toyota has come up with? (DH)‐It’s a movement that has been underway for many years now. The entire context of carbon reduction, air quality improvement and trouble free motoring, where you can travel any distance you like, is the challenge that we are all facing. And Toyota has been an early adopter of the technology ‐ not the only one ‐ but an early adopter in order to be able to get zero emission motoring to the public. (EM)‐So how might this work? Let’s say this car comes into production and you can buy it at reasonable price. From a consumer’s point of view, we’d go to the petrol station, but we wouldn’t put petrol or diesel into the car, obviously? (DH)‐No, you’d put hydrogen and you would almost certainly be going to very similar stations as you would experience at the moment. There is natural gas and there are other gases that have been used in vehicles over the years alongside traditional petrol and diesel. The interesting part with the hydrogen is it’s not an engine, so the fuel cell technology that underpins it is an electrochemical device. That means that you’re combining hydrogen together with oxygen in order to create electricity. That goes into the electric motor drive and / or battery system that you can use to support acceleration; and there are no emissions. You can also produce your hydrogen from green sources, so you can have a completely emission free, carbon free, well‐to‐wheel operational fuel vehicle. (EM)‐What about safety? The H word might be going through some listeners’ mind this second. (DH)‐There is no such thing as completely safe fuel for any vehicle, and it is well recognised that hydrogen (has), because it’s such a light element and requires compression and storage in a safe method, and delivery to the fuel cell in a safe method. That is a challenge that people have been addressing. (EM)‐But the Hindenburg? (DH)‐Hindenburg‐ Everybody remembers the flames and seeing people trying to get away from the flames. The point with hydrogen is that it burns without a flame and, with the Hindenburg, the storage system would have been punctuated and (the hydrogen) would have vented very quickly, within seconds, certainly less than a minute; and the flames was the skin of the vessel. (EM)‐There is a joke in the industry that fuel cell technology is always five years down the road. Do you think its moment has finally come? (DH)‐The moment has finally come. Hyundai, Toyota, Daimler, Nissan….there are many other companies alongside Toyota that are looking to bring their FCEVs to market. I work also with Intelligent Energy; we’ve been working on a range of fuel cell technologies, from small consumer electronics through to zero emission vehicles and it is there. And we’ve got vehicles on the road, right now, and there are fuel cell buses that run through the centre of London every single day. (EM)‐Thank you Dennis Hayter from the UK hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association.