Alice Ramsey - The Veteran Motor Car Club of America

A Plucky Woman
and a Maxwell
Alice Ramsey’s
1909 Cross Country Tour
and
Chronicles of Other
Fair Chauffeurs
By David O. Lyon
Alice at the wheel of the Maxwell which she never surrendered
during her heroic tour (actually none of her three traveling
companions knew how to drive).
Photos courtesy of Gilmore Car Museum
and the Paul Osika Collection
Editor’s note — June 9, 2009 celebrates the 100th Anniversary of Alice Ramsey and friends’ drive from New York to San Francisco.
Special thanks to automotive historian David O. Lyon for documenting this remarkable journey.
Alice Ramsey and Friends’ Cross Country Tour
A list of heroic automotive accomplishments is not complete
without the inclusion of Alice Ramsey and her three companions
who drove a 1909 Maxwell from New York City to San Francisco
in the summer of 1909. While Alice typically was accompanied
by a scout car piloted by men, she never surrendered the
steering wheel of the Maxwell to men when the going
got tough. Certainly she had help, as did the men in the
1908 Thomas Flyer New York to Paris race, but she was
involved in every incident and never asked any man to
solve a road hazard or a mechanical problem for her.
True, she did not fire the forge and bend the metal, but
she removed the axle and then replaced it after the repair
was completed by the blacksmith.
Alice Ramsey, a 22-year-old mother, gave
birth to a son, John, in 1907 and was the wife
of a country lawyer and politician almost
twice her age.They lived in Hackensack, New
Jersey. After an encounter between the family
horse and a Pierce-Arrow which resulted in a
runaway with Alice at the reins, her husband
purchased a 1908 two-cylinder Maxwell
runabout for her to drive, believing that the car
was safer than the horse. She enjoyed motoring
on country roads in New Jersey, participating
in local events for autoists and subsequently
became president of the Women’s Motoring Club of
New York. Alice in the Maxwell and June Cuneo in a
50-hp Rainier, were the only women entered in the
Montauk Point Reliability Tour in September, 2008.
That tour carried the participants from Lynbrook,
A Maxwell-Briscoe Company publicity photo of Alice Ramsey and
her companions in their 1909 Maxwell prior to the departure from
Manhattan on June 9, 1909.
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Long Island over a treacherous 200-mile trip of sandy
two-track “roads” dotted with mud slough and chuck
holes to the eastern tip of the island and return. Carl
Kelsey, the publicity agent for the Maxwell-Briscoe
Company was also on the tour and was much
impressed with Alice’s skill over these rough roads
under trying conditions. She won the bronze medal
for the tour with a perfect score and at the banquet
that evening he proposed to her the concept of a
cross country tour in a Maxwell for the following year.
She considered the idea a challenge and thought it
would be fun, while the Maxwell-Briscoe Company
anticipated considerable publicity from it.
Alice invited Nettie Powell and Maggie Atwood,
her husband’s two sisters who were in their 40s and
Hermine Jahns, a 19-year-old friend, a single woman
and the youngest and the tallest of the four women.
The two sisters were well groomed and dainty, but all
three women joined the tour for its excitement and
adventure. Participating was not without its societal
consequences, however, as social traditionalists often
censured such acts by women.
Even on the day of their departure a quote in the
New York Times attacked and denounced them for
attempting to perform the work of men.
The Maxwell Company supplied a 1909 Model DA
touring car built on a 110" wheel base and powered
by a four-cylinder engine rated at 30 hp. The car was
equipped with carbide gas driving lamps and kerosene
lanterns on the dash. The canvas top, side curtains and
Michigan Museum Celebrates Centennial of Alice Ramsey’s Journey
VMCCA Members Are Key to Exhibit’s Success
Special Thanks to David and Jane Lyon and Howard Joyner
No, these photos aren’t color pictures of Alice
Ramsey on tour! They are pictures of the Alice Ramsey
Centennial Celebration at the Gilmore Car Museum,
Hickory Corners, Michigan. David and Jane Lyon
came up with the concept to recognize Alice Ramsey’s
remarkable journey in 1909, and they contributed
significantly to mounting the comprehensive exhibit
depicting the first female cross country automobile drive.
The Lyons helped with the setting for a life-sized
diorama depicting Alice Ramsey and her three female
companions as they were dealing with a broken axle
on their Maxwell, a
vignette based on an
original 1909 photo.
They also donated
the use of period
clothes for the exhibit
mannequins.
Howard Joyner
loaned his 1909
Maxwell to the
museum where it has
been displayed for
five years and now is
the centerpiece of the
Alice Ramsey exhibit.
The Lyons were also instrumental in obtaining
grants for funding of the exhibit now on display
through October 31, 2009. Special thanks for grants to
AAA Insurance Co. of Michigan
Kalamazoo Antique Auto Restorers Club
Motor Cities Automobile National Heritage Area
and
thanks for support from Director Michael Spezia
and staff of Gilmore Car Museum.
For exhibit information, contact Gilmore Car
Museum, www.GilmoreCarMuseum.org
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a roll-up celluloid windshield provided protection
from the elements. A 20-gallon gas tank replaced the
standard tank, a luggage rack was affixed to the back
and protective sheet metal was attached beneath
the engine. Alice equipped the car with various and
sundry camping gear, some spare parts, tires, tubes, a
tank of compressed air, extra oil and tools, including
tire irons, shovels, an axe, rope, and block-and-tackle.
West of Chicago, she added a spare five-gallon
tank of gas. She also packed a small camera which
Kodak began distributing just before the turn of the
century, which explains the availability of the many
photos. Before leaving Chicago she added long
pieces of canvas that could be laid upon the ground
to give the smooth tread tires, typical of the period,
some purchase on the unforgiving sandy roads.
Although the West was open and quite wild, they
were advised not to take weapons and they heeded
that advice.
New York City north and then west across the state to
Buffalo, June 9 to June 13, 1909
Alice Ramsey and her companions left Manhattan
on Wednesday, June 9, 1909 with much fanfare and
well wishes by Joan Cuneo and other motoring
enthusiasts. They drove along the east side of the
Hudson River to Poughkeepsie on what is now
Highway 9 and the Albany Post Road. Reportedly
the latter survives in its original condition of dirt
and stones. After reaching Albany, they proceeded
west to Amsterdam following what is now Route
5, presumably a well-established roadway at the
time, although Alice devotes little description to
this part of the trip. Across the state they passed
through Herkimer, Utica and Syracuse, stopping in
Auburn to visit the prison there and at that time
they summoned a Maxwell mechanic to replace the
faulty electrical coil. This area is beautiful country,
Alice repairs a flat tire on the Maxwell near Rochelle, Illinois.
although the roads near Herkimer and then across
the northern tips of the five Finger Lakes are hilly.
West of Auburn, where Routes 5 and 20 run together,
the road passes just south of the Montezuma swamp,
a very dangerous track of road at the time.
Most of that first leg was driven through miserable
conditions with plenty of rain creating treacherous
slippery roads that required chains.They drove the
final 138-miles the last night and the carbide gas
lamps created eerie images, but the roads were dry
and they arrived at the Iroquois Hotel in Buffalo, New
York at 1:30 a.m., on Sunday, June 13. Alice and her
companions spent two days in Buffalo and visited
Niagara Falls on Sunday June 14.
Buffalo, New York across Ohio, and Indiana to Chicago,
June 15 to 18
The second leg of the journey from Buffalo to
Chicago included stops in Cleveland and Toledo,
Ohio, then Goshen and South Bend, Indiana,
apparently continuing on what is now Route 5,
which runs south from Buffalo to Cleveland and
then westward. Alice had her best day for
mileage, covering 198 miles between Buffalo
and Cleveland. Road maps were nonexistent
and tourists relied on the directions in the
published Blue Book, which were written
in terms of mileages between identifiable
buildings, distinctive trees or other natural
markers. Outside of Ashtabula, Ohio one line
read,“11.6 miles, at yellow house turn rt.”
Unable to find the yellow house they asked
a woman at the roadside for directions and
she confessed that the owner of the yellow
house “was agin the automobile” and painted
his house green some months ago just to
confuse the automobilists seeking the route
A nasty stretch outside Toledo was deeply rutted and troublesome.
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In addition to the untrustworthy directions, the
roads could best be described as rough between
Cleveland and Chicago with a particularly nasty
stretch outside of Toledo. But the trip from Cleveland
to Chicago was generally uneventful and she recounts
little of it, except to note that the roads were “not as
favorable as they had expected.”A reasonable estimate
is that they followed what is now Highway 20 out of
Cleveland to Toledo, Ohio, then followed Highway 2 to
Wauseon, Ohio, turning south to what is now Highway
6, and then west to Ligonier, Indiana and finally
swinging northward to Goshen, South Bend and La
Porte, Indiana.The route west of La Porte meandered
about and entered Chicago over roads that are not
easily identifiable today.
Alice and her companions spent three days in
Chicago and on one day drove 50 miles south to
attend the auto races in Crown Pointe, Indiana, a tour
that included a minor hit-and-run accident with a
speeding Cadillac.
Alice “slithered through the muddy morass” in Iowa for mile
upon mile in low gear.
to Cleveland. Such mischief by those opposed to
automobiles was not uncommon at the time and
often included misleading directions, road barriers
such as railroad ties or water-filled obstacles.
Fast Women… As Early As 1898
Geneva Delphi Mudge, Joan Cuneo, Blanche Stuart Scott, Gertrude Phillips,
Gwenda Hawkes, Janet Guthrie, Lyn St. James, Sarah Fisher and Dannica Patrick
Women were not involved in early competitive automotive
events to the same extent as men, but they were involved and
Alice Ramsey was not the only fair chauffeur of the era nor is
she the only female to set records in competitive motor sports.
Geneva Delphi Mudge, taking the wheel of a horseless carriage
in 1898, is considered to be the first female driver in this county.
A number of women tourists followed her example, and reports
of dust covered automobiles filled with female occupants in
touring attire and suit cases clinging to the running boards were
not uncommon as early as 1905.
Joan Cuneo was a well known and competitive participant
in the 1907 and 1908 Glidden Tours and finished second in
a 50-mile race to famed race driver Ralph DePalma in 1909.
Blanche Stuart Scott and her companion, Gertrude Phillips, also
drove from New York
to San Francisco in
a 1910 Overland,
although she was a
year later than the
Ramsey expedition
and consequently
her name is not as
well known and her
Blanche Scott and her companion,
Gertrude Phillips in the 1910 Overland
accomplishment
which Ms. Scott drove from New York
is not as well
to San Francisco in 1910, the first year
celebrated. Gwenda she also flew an airplane.
Hawkes, among
a number of other well known female competitors, raced two,
three and four wheel vehicles in the 1930s. “Powder puff”
drag events were popular in the Midwest during the decades
following World War II, but Shirley Muldowney was the first
female to enter drag racing competitions sponsored by the
National Hot Rod Association. She began racing in 1965 and
was the first driver, not the first female driver, but the first driver,
to win three world titles in that sport. Several females have
raced in the Indianapolis 500, including Janet Guthrie, Lyn St.
James, Sarah Fisher and Dannica Patrick. Dannica won an Indy
car race in Japan in 2008, and led the Indianapolis 500 race in
2004. She just missed winning that race for the lack of about
three gallons of gasoline.
Joan Cuneo, a successful participant in many Glidden Tours,
at the wheel of her Rainier.
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New York City
departure
June 9, 1909
San Francisco
arrival
August 7, 1909
Chicago, across Illinois
to Sioux City, Iowa,
June 22 to July 2
After three pleasant days in Chicago, Alice and her
companions departed “the city of big shoulders” on
June 22, heading toward the “entrance to the real West”
and the third leg of the journey.The drive due west
followed approximately what is now Route 30 and
Interstate 88. Alice changed a tire in Rochelle, Illinois
allowing the men in the accompanying pilot car to
pump up the tires,“I hated to waste their strength
while I broke my back unnecessarily,” she commented.
Following what is now Highway 38, through Geneva,
Malta and Rochelle onto Route 30, they crossed the
Mississippi River on a narrow plank bridge at Clinton,
Illinois, north of Moline, bound for Mechanicsville,
Iowa. Interestingly, their signatures are still on record
in a hotel guest book in Mechanicsville.
And so began one of the most demanding parts
of the entire journey. In fact, the driving requirements
were so distracting that Alice neglected to check
the gas level with her well-marked stick and the car
came to a stop with a sputter near Mechanicsville.
Fortunately, a nearby farmer had fuel which he was
willing to sell to them. Alice did not report how they
found gasoline along the way. Gas was usually sold at
hardware stores, and apparently she found it readily
throughout the journey, but after this incident she
strapped a five-gallon gas can to the running board.
They reached Cedar Rapids, Iowa on June 24.
Once again they encountered heavy rain which
turned the already poor roads into primitive trails
bordered by water filled ditches. The drive, along
what is now Highway 30, the old Lincoln Highway,
was horrific. It was a 14-day crawl during which Alice
“slithered through the muddy morass” for mile upon
mile in low gear from Marshalltown to Boone to
Carrol and then Vail. Running slow and presumably
with the spark retarded, the car over heated and
water boiled out of the radiator. Her sisters-in-law
found their silver capped toiletries an ideal vessel
for bringing water to the radiator and in so doing
lost their prissy countenance and demonstrated their
adventurous attitude.
The small town of Vail is about three quarters
of the way across Iowa. Just to the east of there
Alice not only ascended the dreaded and very
steep “Danger Hill,” but she was able to pass a rope
to the driver of a Mitchell stuck part way the hill
and pull him to the crest as well. Readers who
own automobiles of this era can appreciate the
accomplishment. Conquering a wet dirt roadway up
a steep hill in a car with skinny smooth tires is one
accomplishment, but to do so pulling another car
up such a grade, is a considerable feat. Reportedly,
Danger Hill survives, although it is not the dreaded
impediment it was then.
The town of Vail was flooded and the floors
of many of the buildings were covered by mud.
The wooden sidewalks were turned up on edge;
buildings sat at odd angles on their foundations; and
debris floated through the streets. Alice’s party was
warned that the roads south from Vail to Omaha City
were impassable. Alice left the car in Vail and did
take the train to Omaha to survey her options, but
never entertained the notion of loading the Maxwell
on a railroad flat bed to escape the terrible road
conditions. Instead, her three companions took the
train to Sioux City to lighten the load, but Alice and J.
D. Murphy, her advance man, left Vail in the Maxwell
with the intent of finding higher ground and meeting
the three women in Sioux City.
Continued on page 41
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A Plucky Woman
and a Maxwell
Continued from page 12
However, disaster struck once again.
Just three miles west of Vail, the rear
axle broke and Alice calmly watched
the rear wheel roll into the long grass.
The cantankerous local Maxwell dealer
was unwilling to provide assistance,
however, they were fortunate to have
the help of Eugene Gnehem from
The deep heavy sand in Nebraska pulled at the steering wheel and made for
Interstate Auto Supply in Sioux City,
heavy going.
who just happened to be in the area.
With Gnehem’s help, the axle was
They eventually reached Grand Island, running
repaired and they crawled along the watery roads and
on what is now Route 30, the Lincoln Highway,
through the mud holes to Sioux City with J. D. Murphy
which parallels Interstate 80 through Nebraska. Just
in the passenger’s seat. She never gave up the wheel,
west of Grand Island they broke the right rear axle
but together they were forced to solve several road
shaft and a mechanic traveled by train more than
hazard problems. When both the front wheel and the
400 miles from Denver to install a new axle and
back wheel fell into separate holes, they used a shovel
also to repair the magneto. After those repairs were
as a foundation under the jack to lift the front wheel
completed they continued through Kearney, Overton,
and then pulled the car sideways with a rope so the
Gothenburg, and stopped in North Platte for repairs
tire came to rest on solid ground. Murphy then pushed
and once again tightened bolts that were shaken
a long pole under the rear axle and forced the car
loose by the rough roads. They continued west, but
upward and out of the hole onto the roadway.They
were delayed in Ogalla by a mounted posse searching
continued to slog along reaching Sioux City on July
for an escaped killer, and then on to Chappell, Sidney,
2, where they remained for three days to have the car
Kimball and Bushnell before crossing the boarder
repaired while they waited for the rain to stop before
into Wyoming and entering Cheyenne. In spite
crossing the Missouri River.The situation outside of
of all of these challenges, Alice remained positive
Vail explains in part why era photos often show many
and optimistic.“It was a beautiful ride, with ever
automobilists wearing high leather boots.
expanding views, as one looked across the rolling
Sioux City across Nebraska to Cheyenne, Wyoming,
land to the distant horizon,” she commented. The
July 6 to July 14
roads were mere trails across the range, but on July
The decision to drive northwest to Sioux City
14 they were able to drive 178 miles and rolled into
on the fourth leg pleased the people there, as the
Cheyenne well tanned and still full of vigor. Once
situation afforded an opportunity for them to brag
again the car was overhauled before they departed.
about the northern route compared to the one
Cheyenne, across Wyoming to Salt Lake City Utah,
July 16 to July 20
The departure from Cheyenne marks the
beginning of the fifth leg of the trip.The area was
desolate, and the roads were hard and dry, but not
well marked.They followed both the railroad and the
telegraph wires and often were assisted by pilot cars
driven by Maxwell dealers in Wyoming. If you have
ever traveled in this part of the country you would
have noted the washouts that crisscross the prairie,
and these crevices created a considerable impediment
to their progress.These deep ditches were conquered
with the sheer power of the Maxwell and the guts of
the tourists. In order to climb the steep sides of these
through Omaha. However, the trek southwest from
Sioux City to Wisner, Duncan, Central City, Chapman
and then to Grand Island, Nebraska was long and
arduous. Just beyond the bridge over the Missouri
River at Sioux City, Eugene Gnehem’s car, which was
suppose to serve as a pilot vehicle, broke down and
was towed back to the city by a team of horses. He
pleaded with Alice to return also, but she refused,
not wanting to traverse the roads that she had just
conquered and insisted on pushing west.The roads
were so bad that Alice covered only 64 miles to Wisner
that day. On one occasion, a farmer pulled them out
of mud holes not once but twice and “adding insult to
injury,” he doubled his price the second time.
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gullies, Alice gunned the engine moving
the car forward several inches and one of
her companions would then lodge rocks or
blocks of wood behind the rear tires.The
succession of small increments forward and
successive blocking eventually brought the
car up the sides of the deepest ditches.
On July 17, and with the gullies behind
them, they crossed the Platte River on the
railroad bridge and “began our trip over the
Rockies, which is neither so scenic a route
nor difficult a climb as I had been led to
expect,” she commented. Approaching Utah, The Maxwell tumbles into a washout west of Salt Lake City, near Callao, Utah
they stopped in Opal, Wyoming which was
once a thriving cattle town on Highway 30 north of
even that repair was just a temporary fix. A succession
the Interstate.The bed in the local hotel was ridden
of washouts eventually destroyed the repair and the
with bed bugs and Alice and Hermine Jahns spent
members of the “Ramsey entourage” removed the
most of the night sleeping at a table. On the road, they
axle and they left the crippled car at the roadside.
met Ezra Thompson returning home from Buffalo, New
With help from the occupants in the two other cars,
York to Salt Lake City driving a Pierce-Arrow that he
the two-cylinder Maxwell runabout and the Pierce,
had purchased at the factory there.They followed him
they returned to Salt Lake City for a second repair by
to Salt Lake City arriving the evening of July 20.They
a skilled blacksmith there. Alice and Sam Sharman,
stayed for several days and had the Maxwell cleaned,
the Maxwell Company representative in Utah, then
bolts tighten and minor repairs completed.
returned to the stranded Maxwell with the repaired
axle and mounted it on the car.
Salt Lake City across Utah and Nevada to Reno Nevada,
Meanwhile, Alice’s passengers took the stagecoach
July 24 to August 3
from Callao, Utah to Ely, Nevada and Alice and Sam
The women rolled out of Salt Lake City driving
Sharman drove the distance alone.The area from
west, beginning the sixth leg of the journey. Once
Grantsville to Fish Springs, then Callao and finally to
again, disaster struck almost immediately. Near
Ibapah and then Ely was an area of shifting sands,
Grantsville, the Maxwell fell into a prairie dog hole
loose stones and undergrowth. Even today this area is
breaking the seat for the front spring off of the axle
not well populated and is without main highways. At
and bringing the car to the ground. Alice made the
that time, Alice and Sam were having difficulty finding
repair by winding strong wire around the spring and
their location on the map, when they spotted a dozen
the axle and the car continued toward Orr’s ranch
mounted Indians in the distance who fortunately
which still survives today.The blacksmith there fired
passed in front of them showing little interest in the
up the forge and bent a wide steel strip around the
Maxwell. Alice later admitted that it was the only time
axle and the spring to replace the wire. However,
she was fearful. She met her companions
in Ely, and they continued west on the road
to Reno which was a succession of steep
mountain passes. She followed what is
Highway 50 today, and its designation as “a
scenic route” provides ample description
of its character in 1909.“Each day was a
succession of more climbs, more difficulty
getting on the right road, sometimes a
blow-out, and plenty of rough going,” she
commented. Alice admitted later that the
choice was a poor one, going south from
Salt Lake City instead of north to Ogden,
where they could have followed the Union
The Maxwell’s front end broke when the wheel fell into a prairie dog
Pacific rails.That area was more densely
outside of Grantsville, just west of Salt Lake City.
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populated and provided better
communications than the more
direct southern road to Ely and
then west to Reno.
too thick nor sand too deep. The
car for a lady to drive. Simply
perfect; perfectly simple” wrote
the Maxwell Company at the end
of the journey. However large the
Reno to San Francisco, California,
accomplishment at a time when
August 4 to August 7
few women drove automobiles
The Ramsey contingent left
or worked outside the home for
Reno on August 4, for the seventh
that matter, her accomplishment
and final leg, driving south toward
was not an oddity. It was the
Carson City and then west to
result of a natural progression
spend the night in a campground
of accomplishments and
on the southern shore of Lake
participation by women in various
Tahoe.The tour over the Sierra
excursions which rivaled those
Nevada Mountains was beautiful,
of men. These successful women
but demanding, and once again
were called “plucky” by members
the Maxwell suffered from
of the press, but often did not
overheating until Alice raised
receive the credit they deserved
the sides of the hood.The roads
at the time, even though their
in California were the best they
role was essential to the success
had driven since leaving Chicago
of the mission. Sacajawea on the
and the Maxwell attracted a
Lewis and Clark excursion is one
sizable escort of enthusiastic
Alice Huyler Ramsey, circa 1970, with
example of such oversight.
automobilists during the last
the book Veil, Duster and Tire Iron that
Blanche Stuart repeated Alice’s
150 miles from Sacramento to
she authored in 1961 about her journey
feat in an Overland the following
of 1909.
Oakland and then across the bay
year, and subsequently, Alice drove
by ferry to San Francisco, arriving
another Overland across the country in 1919 and after
in San Francisco on August 7.
that continued to drive cross country tours on an
“Women can handle an automobile just as well as
annual basis. In 1961 she wrote Veil, Duster and Tire
men,” she commented.“You should have seen us get
Iron, her book describing her touring adventures of
the machine out of an irrigation ditch in Wyoming. We
1909, although she never revealed the fate of the famed
just took out the block-and-tackle and hooked it to a
Maxwell. She received a new Maxwell for her effort
stump and pulled the machine out.” She was cordial in
and reportedly the original car was sent to Maxwell
accepting the outpouring of enthusiasm, well wishes
dealers for display. One can image that as the financial
and honking horns as she regaled the excited crowd
promise of the Maxwell Company declined, someone,
with stories of the tour.
perhaps a bankrupt company agent, dispatched Alice’s
Alice Ramsey and her companions drove 3,800
Maxwell to a local junkyard. Probably, it was just “that
miles in 60 calendar days although their running time
old car” by then, although it had served Alice and
was only 42 days, as the other 18 days are attributable
her companions very well. Interestingly, one writer
to sightseeing, and delays due to poor weather and
at the time commented about the appearance of the
mechanical difficulties. She averaged 90.5 miles each
car when Alice and her companions arrived in San
day of touring, and a calculated 7.54 mph, assuming
Francisco, comparing it indirectly to the cars men had
a 12-hour day for driving. Historians estimate that she
driven in such events: “dusty, but clean, not caked with
used eleven tires.
mud, not battered and scarred” and “the engine ran
The ladies were wined and dined by enthusiasts
as sweetly and more smoothly than the day it left the
and manufacturers alike and much was made of
factory.”
the trip, and certainly she deserves our admiration
Alice H. Ramsey died September 10, 1983 at the
and credit for the accomplishment. “No mountains
age
of 96.
or grades too steep for the Maxwell, no gumbo
Writer David O. Lyon is an automotive historian, psychologist, retired university professor, student of human nature, and antique car enthusiast. He is the author
of The Kalamazoo Automobilist, 1881-1991, a 523-page book on the history of automobile manufacture in Kalamazoo, Michigan. He says, “Enjoying antique cars
lets you have your life and drive through it too.” Contact him at [email protected]
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