Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 DOI 10.1007/s12124-009-9098-7 C O M M E N TA RY The Ecological Level of Analysis: Can Neogibsonian Principles be Applied Beyond Perception and Action? David Travieso & David M. Jacobs Published online: 18 June 2009 # Springer Science + Business Media, LLC 2009 Abstract Is it useful to apply ecological principles, developed to understand perception and action, in research areas such as social psychology? Charles (Integrative Psychological & Behavioral Sciences 43(1) 53–66 2009) warns ecological psychologists interested in this question that much time and effort can be saved through a backwards extension to or rediscovery of the New Realism tradition. In response, we analyze what ecological psychology risks to lose with such a backwards extension and describe existing extensions of the approach not considered by Charles. According to Charles, New Realism holds that: (1) we experience reality, (2) relations are real, and (3) things are what you see when you see those things. Our arguments originate from a comparison of these principles with six recently described ecological ones: (1) organism-environment systems are the proper units of analysis, (2) environmental realities should be defined at the ecological scale, (3) behavior is emergent and selforganized, (4) perception and action are continuous and cyclic, (5) information is specificational, and (6) perception is of affordances (Richardson et al. 2008). Keywords Ecological psychology . Gibson . Affordances . Perception-action . Social psychology . Levels of analysis Ecological psychology is a currently active approach, founded by Gibson (1966, 1979), that aims to understand perception and action taking the environment-actor system as its level of analysis (Michaels and Carello 1981; Richardson et al. 2008). Notwithstanding exceptions, one should agree with Charles (2009) that the main focus of the approach is on perception and action. Charles asks whether and how the approach can be useful in other research areas, for instance in attempts to understand social and socio-cultural phenomena. He argues that ecological psychologists interested in phenomena other than perception and action should carefully consider the New D. Travieso (*) : D. M. Jacobs Facultad de Psicología, Universidad Autónoma de Madrid, Campus de Cantoblanco, 28049 Madrid, Spain e-mail: [email protected] D. M. Jacobs e-mail: [email protected] 394 Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 Realism tradition, because that tradition has shown a large interest in such phenomena. Otherwise, he argues, New Realism has much in common with ecological psychology. As does Charles (2009), we ask if and how the ecological approach can be applied to study social and socio-cultural phenomena. Our concern is to extend the approach, or at least our understanding thereof, without abandoning its main principles. We argue that Charles (1) does not sufficiently acknowledge what the ecological theory risks to lose with a regress to New Realism and (2) does not sufficiently consider currently ongoing ecological efforts to study social and sociocultural phenomena. These efforts include the work of Costall (1995) and the work of Marsh and colleagues (Marsh et al. 2006; Marsh 2009). Before we address these lines of research, however, we contrast the principles of New Realism (described by Charles) with those of ecological psychology (described by Richardson et al. 2008). Why a New Interest in Ecological Psychology? Why Should Ecological Psychology be Considered? Among the most well-known aspects of ecological psychology is the rejection of the explanatory value of mental representations. Scientific approaches that do use representations are at risk of an unexplainable dualism between the mental (the representations) and the non-mental (environmental objects, for instance). This does not mean that such approaches deny reality; rather, they consider two ontological entities, the real and the mental.1 The mere assumption of realism is therefore by no means unique to ecological psychology. As described by Charles (2009), realism is a historical heritage of ecological psychology from New Realism, and it can be further rooted back to American functionalism. We do not think that other disciplines might want to turn to ecological principles for the realism per se. Rather, what is relevant is how the assumption of realism has given rise to a systematic and principled way to understand perception and action (Shaw et al. 1982; cf. Jacobs and Michaels 2002). At first sight this way to understand perception and action might indeed seem to be closely related to the principles of New Realism as described by Charles (2009): (1) we experience reality, (2) relations are real, and (3) things are what you see when you see those things. Even though these statements do indicate an influence of New Realism on ecological psychology, we think that Charles underestimates the importance of the differences addressed in the following section. The Axioms of New Realism Reconsidered Principle 1 of New Realism: We experience reality Charles (2009) further describes this statement as follows: […] all things are observable; all things have a consequence, and hence can, by some means, be observed. The New Realists wanted to set this up as a very 1 It has also been argued that mental entities are real, meaning that the dualism is methodological rather than ontological (Fodor 1983). Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 395 broad principle, applying just as well to my seeing the coffee mug on my desk as the consciousness of my office mate, the earth’s orbit, or subatomic particles. (Charles, p. 55) This description reveals a first difference between Charles’ understanding of New Realism and ecological psychology, because ecological psychologists claim that we do not perceive all physical properties of objects. Richardson et al. (2008) present two principles that indicate the difference; Principle 1: Organism-environment systems are the proper units of analysis, and Principle 2: Environmental realities should be defined at the ecological scale. One should conclude from these principles that we do not perceive, say, subatomic particles and movements of remote galaxies, because such properties are not defined at the ecological scale. Descriptions that are independent of organisms belong to the field of physics, in which points, lines, planes, particles, masses, and durations are among the primary elements of analyses. Ecological psychology emphasizes that such physical concepts are not the ones to which we are attuned in our organism-environment system. Instead, Gibson (1979) used concepts such as surfaces, substances, places, objects, and events (see Table 9.1 of Richardson et al. 2008, for a further comparison of physical and ecological properties). We consider this to be the first move forward of Gibson’s theory with regard to previous approaches. We will see below that restricting the scope of perception to ecological properties is indispensable in order to advance from a naïve (unexplained) form of realism to an ecological or operational form of realism. Note in this regard that both cognitive psychology and behaviorism, still popular alternatives of ecological psychology, adopt forms of naïve realism. That is, they take perception or knowledge of elemental properties for granted without explanation. In behaviorism, animals are assumed to perceive bells, levers, food, etc., and in cognitive psychology, systems of representations are assumed to be somehow related to the environment, or grounded. The principles of New Realism advanced by Charles (2009) fail to provide an alternative to naïve forms of realism. Principle 2 of New Realism: Relations are real, and hence detectable The first part of this statement, that relations are real, is one of the foundations of ecological psychology too. One might even go further and question to what extent it makes sense to call some properties relations and others not. For instance, is time-tocontact a relation (combination) of speed and distance? Or is distance a combination of speed and time? Hence, ecological psychologists would agree that properties that are described as relations have the same ontological status as properties not so described. Emphasizing the importance of relational properties, Gibson (1979) introduced the concept of affordance to refer to the class properties that are of interest to organisms or, more precisely, to refer to the properties that afford actions to the organism. Such properties are by definition relational. The second part of the statement, however, which states that relations are detectable, points in the direction of a naïve realism much like the naïve realism in behaviorism and cognitive psychology. Ecological psychology, in contrast, aims to achieve a lawful or operative description of environment-organism relations. To 396 Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 achieve this, the above-mentioned restrictions in the description of the environmentorganism relations are needed. In sum, although relations are real, not all relations are perceivable. Moreover, relations are not perceivable because of being real. As indicated by Richardson et al. (2008), properties are perceivable if they are specified by detectable information. This brings us to the following Neogibsonian principles; Principle 5: Information is specificational, and Principle 6: Perception is of affordances. Principle 5, or the claim that information is specificational, implies an advance of Gibson’s theory with regard to Charles’ principles of New Realism, because it provides a means to understand how organisms perceive. We might all agree with Gibson (1979), for instance, that the heading direction of a locomoting animal is specified by the center of expansion of the optical flow, that this center of expansion is detectable, and that perceiving heading direction might mean detecting the center of expansion. Likewise, perceiving the particular slant of a surface might mean detecting a particular gradient in the optical projection of its texture elements, perceiving timeto-contact might mean detecting Lee’s tau (Lee and Reddish 1981), etc. Even though the movements of subatomic particles and remote galaxies may also be specified in ambient energy arrays, in these cases the patterns should be supposed to be too fine-grained or coarse-grained to be detectable by biological organisms. They hence do not qualify as Gibsonian information. This illustrates that Principle 5 is defensible precisely because Gibson restricted his analyses to perception and action in natural environments, described at the ecological scale. If one loosens up the scale restriction too much, Principle 5 becomes indefensible, which implies a regress to naïve forms of realism. Remember that the goal of this commentary is to consider whether ecological psychology can be extended to research areas such as for instance social psychology. The problem at hand, however, and this is the crux of our arguments, is not to merely extend ecological psychology, but to extend ecological psychology without giving up the principles of specification. We think that Charles (2009) did not sufficiently emphasize this when he suggested a backwards extension toward New Realism. It might be useful at this point to consider a more detailed example of ecological perception-action research. During the last few decades, a research line has been developed on what Gibson (1966) called dynamic touch. Dynamic touch is that part of haptics that allows observers to perceive properties of their body and of hand-held objects through receptors in muscles and tendons. The receptors are active during the angular movements of the body segments. Using knowledge about rotational mechanics—the type of physics that concerns such movements—Turvey and colleagues aimed to understand our (non-visual) perceptual access to properties such as the length, weight, or even form of wielded objects (e.g., Carello and Turvey 2000; Turvey 1996; Solomon and Turvey 1988). Remember Newton’s second law of motion: F=m a, which holds that a changing force, F, is coupled to a changing acceleration, a, through the invariant property called mass, m. The case of rotational mechanics is similar. In this case the law of motion holds that τ=I α, where τ is a vector that indicates a changing rotational force (or torque), α is a vector that indicates a changing rotational acceleration, and I is a 3×3 matrix that describes the coupling of the torques and accelerations. The matrix I is referred to as inertia tensor. If described in object-centered coordinates, the inertia tensor is invariant. Turvey and colleagues hypothesized that observers Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 397 have access to several properties of wielded objects because, through the wielding, they are able to detect different invariant properties of the inertia tensor, which might or might not be specific to the properties to be perceived. The Neogibsonian principles can be applied to this situation as follows: Both objects and organisms are real things, with properties such as mass and size in the object, and joints and muscles in the organism. Relational properties such as force and effort are also present. A cyclic pattern of perceiving and acting is required. The perceiving-acting situation has persistence (the inertia tensor) and change (forces and torques), and there is a lawful relation between organism and environment. Information is present, not in the form of something that originates from the environment and finds it way into the organism, but as a changing pattern of activity in the organism that exists by virtue of the contact with the object (and is determined as well by the particular structure of the organism). Note from this example that ecological psychologists aim to identify information that is specific to environmental properties (affordances) so that perception can be portrayed as a resonance to that information. Remember that not all the properties of objects are supposed to be specified by detectable information. Many details of the subatomic structure of wielded objects, for instance, are neither specified nor perceivable. This brings us to Charles’ (2009) final principle of New Realism. Principle 3 of New Realism: Things are what you see when you see those things Given the above arguments, we might add to this statements that things are more than what you see when you see those things. Much remains without being perceived at scales beyond the ecological one. Furthermore, even at the ecological scale, organisms perceive only a fraction of what something actually is. This is indicated in the following: [...] something that is a cup for me, might not be a cup for a 2 year old child, a dog, or a fruit fly, but might be a cup for an elephant. Further, as objects have multiple affordances, I might perceive the affordances that make something a cup when I am thirsty, but only perceive the affordances that make it a throwable object when I am angry. In none of those cases does the object itself change, but there are differences in terms of what properties of the object are detected (or responded to). (Charles, p.56) The reader has probably noticed that, so far, we have presented only four of Richardson et al.’s (2008) six Neogibsonian principles. The remaining ones are Principle 3: Behavior is emergent and self-organized, and Principle 4: Perception and action are continuous and cyclic. To conclude our description of these principles, let us mention that Principle 3 connects ecological psychology to the dynamical systems approach, a move forward that is more explicit in the work of Neogibsonians than in the work of Gibson himself. In the following we aim to continue Charles’ (2009) efforts and explore how ecological psychology can be (and has been) applied in more social and sociocultural research areas. We summarize three possibilities. First, one might explore how far the ecological level of analysis can be extended or stretched; that is, explore whether or not some social properties might be specified in ambient energy arrays, 398 Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 as are properties such as heading direction, and hence might be directly perceived. Second, rather than applying the ecological principles of specificity in social psychology, one might apply the principles related to dynamical systems. Finally, socio-cultural processes might be understood as an attunement to particular culturally accepted affordances of objects. As we will see below, the latter two views allow social psychologist to apply ecological tools without extending the ecological scale of analysis, and hence without the above-mentioned risk to violate the principles of specificity. These approaches will be discussed after a few more specific comments on Charles (2009). Perception, Invariants, and Development What is Perception? Charles (2009) sees much similarity in the conceptions of perception in the ecological and New Realism traditions; in our understanding correctly so. About the New Realists he asserts that: “When you know that someone has perceived something, what is it that you have observed?” I believe the New Realist’s answer to that question would be that you see a matching between the behavior of the organism and the environments in which that behavior takes place. [...] That is, a New Realist would define perception as a particular type of matching between an array of behaviors and an array of circumstances. (Charles, p. 57–58) About the ecological view he says that: I think that if asked: “What do you have to explain when explaining perception?” Many ecological psychologists would answer something like: “Your primary obligation is to explain how people correctly respond to the objects and events of the world.” Here, it would seem their answer is exactly in line with the New Realist’s. (Charles, p. 58) Let us use these descriptions to further illustrate one of our arguments. First note that the descriptions are similar to the naïve forms of realism in behaviorism and cognitive psychology to the extent that they take the observable relation between organism and environment for granted. To ground environment-organism relations, ecological psychology further asks: Which are the ambient energy patterns to which we are attuned? We can walk adaptatively in most cases, but among the infinitely many informational variables, which are used? How do we resonate to that information? As described by Charles (2009): From the perspective of the New Realist, Ecological Psychology may offer an improved explanation for perception, an explanation for how the matching between behavior and environment could come about. That is, Gibson offers a mechanism that could explain how the New Realists’ claims are possible. (Charles, p. 58) Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 399 In our understanding, this improved explanation of perception, or this grounding of realism, is an important advance of ecological psychology with regard New Realism. An advance, we think, that should not be undone through a regress to New Realism. The Mathematics of Invariants In a subsection about the mathematics of invariants, within the section of future areas of research, Charles (2009) argues that: The two invariants most commonly invoked as models are the ratio of leg length to riser height […] and the rate of acceleration of optic expansion seen when an object is moving straight towards the head. (Charles, p. 61) He describes these two invariants as successful discoveries of ecological psychology and then claims: However, the success seems to have also led many to think that all invariants must be of similar mathematical form. (Charles, p. 61) from which he continues with: Ecological psychologist would benefit from expanding the types of mathematics they use to identify information. (Charles, p. 61) Let us give a brief reaction on these claims. First, even though the two invariants that Charles mentions are frequently used as examples, especially the optical specification of time-to-contact, a multitude of other invariants has been considered. One could think about the invariants in dynamic touch, which are related to rotational dynamics and the inertia tensor, invariants related to the force by which standing humans pull on a horizontal bar (Michaels and de Vries 1998; Michaels et al. 1993), or invariants that specify the relative mass of colliding balls (Runeson 1995; cf. Jacobs et al. 2001), to give a few examples.2 Ecological psychologists have been able to identify such invariants because they accept that perception and action are based on apparently complicated (higher-order) informational variables. Such variables differ from the stimuli used in approaches such as behaviorism and cognitive psychology precisely in that their mathematical descriptions are more complicated. This is important because if one does not accept that informational variables might be higher-order variables, one cannot defend the principle that informational variables are specificational (Principle 5 of Richardson et al. 2008). Lower-order variables typically do not specify properties of interest. With the search for higher-order variables, ecological psychology has advanced the mathematical descriptions of informational variables more than any other approach. Even so, one should firmly agree with Charles (2009) when he claims that ecological psychologist would benefit from further expanding the types of 2 Charles (2009) refers to the invariants that are considered up to the present as algebraic invariants. We are not sure, however, whether the term algebraic invariants would be the most suited term for a hypothetical common mathematical structure of the presently known invariants. 400 Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 mathematics used to identify information. In our view, denying this claim would be similar to affirming that, at present, we have a complete understanding of perception and action.3 Learning to Detect Invariants Near the end of his article, Charles (2009) discusses a lack of knowledge about the movements that are required to extract invariants, and he also argues that little is known about how we learn to make these movements. Relatedly, he asks how children and young animals develop the ability to extract invariants. It might be useful for readers interested in this latter question to mention, for instance, the work of Eppler and Adolph (1996), van der Kamp et al. (2003), and Kayed and van der Meer (2007), being well aware that this list could be much extended. Three Ways to Apply Ecological Principles in the Social Realm The Individual-Level Approach At several points, Charles (2009) discusses possible extensions of ecological principles beyond perception and action, in particular to social psychology. He does this in a way that Marsh et al. (2006) would have classified under the heading of the individual-level approach (cf. McArthur and Baron 1983). The individual-level approach can be introduced as follows: The identification of new types of invariants will most likely also be key for expanding Ecological Psychology into the social realm (“new”, of course, referring merely to our conception of them). To repeat the New Realist’s almost tautological premise, anything perceived must be an observable thing. In this sense, any integration of social psychology with Ecological Psychology will have to include a determination of the types of observations made possible by being in a social setting. (Charles, p. 61–62) Thus, the individual-level approach explores whether properties in social settings are specified in a Gibsonian way, perhaps with new types of invariants, much like properties at the scale of perception and action. Charles notes different attitudes in this regard between Gibsonians and New Realists. With regard to the more hesitating or cautious attitude of at least some Gibsonians he writes that: It is unclear, however, whether Gibson would have been willing to extend perception as far as the New Realist’s wished to; unclear, for example, whether he would have been comfortable with the notion that mental traits are perceivable. (Charles, p. 58–59) 3 Note that expanding the mathematics of invariants does not entail a return to New Realism as advocated by Charles (2009). To the contrary, such an expansion further distinguishes ecological psychology from previous approaches. The same is true, we think, for the other issues that are discussed by Charles in his section on future areas of research. Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 401 About the New Realists’ attitude he asserts that: For Holt, the “asleep or awake, receptive or unreceptive, hungry or satiated,” the intentionality of the actors, can be perceived by an observer. I believe that Ecological Psychology’s best hope of making a coherent transition to dealing experimentally with interpersonal and cultural phenomenon will be to extend ecological theory back towards a New Realist approach. (Charles, p. 59) As indicated by this quote, Charles is more sympathetic with the New Realist position. Whereas ecological psychologists typically limit their analysis to the scale of perception and action, he suggests that they should use a wider focus. However, changing the scale of one’s analysis, much like a camera zoom, implies a perturbation of principles, methods, and models. Let us illustrate this with a reconsideration of the extreme case: A zoom that includes all physical properties. As argued above, such a zoom would be inconsistent with the Neogibsonian portrayal of perception because one cannot assume, say, the movement of remote galaxies to be specified by information that is detectable at the time scale of perception. Hence, given that perception is defined as a resonance to information, Neogibsonians cannot consider the beliefs that we have about movements of galaxies as perceptual knowledge. Words other than perception should be used to refer to the way in which we obtain such beliefs; perhaps inference, deduction, or intuition might do. The question becomes: Are properties in social settings more like remote galaxies (to be excluded from the ecological zoom) or more like heading direction (to be included in the zoom)? Our personal view, partly based on our reading of Marsh et al. (2006), is that they are in many cases more like remote galaxies, in the sense that they are specified in ambient energy arrays at spatiotemporal scales beyond the scale of perception, if at all. That is, we would say that even though the intentionality of actors can often be intuited or inferred, it cannot be perceived, because one cannot resonate to information that specifies it. Having said this, in agreement with Charles (2009), we see much merit in the analysis of properties that might be close to the edge of an acceptable ecological zoom, which is to say, the limiting cases of the Neogibsonian principles. Such attempts have been reviewed by Marsh et al. (2006), who considered studies about properties such as sexual availability and intentions and about biophysical features such as age and biological movement. Different levels of success are obtained in this line of research (the individual-level approach). On the positive side, there have been consistent results with regard to biophysical features, for instance in the detection of biological movement through point light displays (e.g., Runeson and Frykholm 1981, 1983). In contrast, the detection of properties such as intentions of others is often found to be less consistent and more context dependent. Apparently, many of those cases violate the ecological principles presented above. The Social Synergy Approach The above-mentioned limitations of the individual-level approach indicate that a different approach is needed in order to understand social phenomena in an ecological way. As an alternative, Marsh et al. (2006) considered what they refer to 402 Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 as the social synergy approach (cf. Marsh et al. 2009; Richardson et al. 2009). Note that the individual-level approach does not in fact address interactions between organisms; it merely asks whether certain aspects of individuals can be perceived by others. The social synergy approach, in contrast, is based on the idea that organisms mutually influence each other in social interactions, and thus that organisms in social situations cannot be considered as the sum of the individual organisms. Given that behavior is emergent and self-organized, interacting individuals should be considered as a system, and the coordinated behavior should be the unit of analysis. To introduce the social synergy approach we first briefly mention a few characteristics of the more general (non-social) synergetics or coordination dynamics approach (Kugler and Turvey 1987). This approach considers organisms as complex systems and behavior as self-organized. Commonly observed phenomena are multistability, phase transitions, and hysteresis, which are typically described or explained through the application of the theory of nonlinear differential equations. Of interest here is the relatively simple HKB-model (Haken et al. 1985), probably the most well-known model of the approach. If individuals rhythmically move their hands or fingers in anti-phase, and speed up the movement, a switch is observed to in-phase coordination.4 The HKB-model was proposed to explain several empirical findings with regard to such phase transitions (or switches). The simplest form of the model is the following: : f ¼ " sinðfÞ " 2k sinð2fÞ; : in which 7 is the phase difference between the limbs, f is the rate of change of the phase difference, and k represents the cycle period of the movement. The model describes how the phase difference converges on a stable attractor, which depends on k and on the recent history. The HKB-model has shown to be a powerful instrument to analyze human movements, and several models have been developed on the basis of it. The social synergy approach aims to apply tools of coordination dynamics to social situations. The first successes of the approach consist in the application of HKB-like models to transitions in coordination patterns among individuals, rather than to the originally studied transitions in interlimb coordination. Schmidt et al. (1990), for instance, showed that phenomena observed with interlimb coordination within an individual also occur with leg movements of two individuals, and Richardson et al. (2007) addressed transitions in dynamic charge movements such as lifting and carrying objects either individually or jointly (cf. Marsh et al. 2009). On the basis of such results, Marsh et al. (2006) conclude that the social synergy approach holds more promise than the individual level approach. To summarize, rather than using the Neogibsonian principles of specificity (e.g., Richardson el al.’s Principle 5), the social synergy approach relies on the principles of self-organization (e.g., Richardson el al.’s Principle 3). Hence, by not extending the principles of specificity, the approach does not run into the potential problems that are associated to the use of the principles of specificity beyond the appropriate scale. 4 In the case of rhythmically tapping a table with index fingers, in-phase coordination is defined as tapping the table at the same time with the two fingers, and anti-phase as tapping in an alternating way at equally spaced time-intervals. Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 403 Socializing Affordances We next describe a third ecological approach to social and socio-cultural phenomena. The approach was developed by Costall (1995, 2004; cf. Costall and Leudar 1996), and is referred to as the socializing affordances approach. Objects have multiple affordances. For example, a cup affords drinking, throwing, breaking, and infinitely many other actions. Some affordances (drinking) are actualized or executed more often than others (throwing). Costall refers to affordances that are regularly executed in the social context as canonical affordances. In the course of development, or enculturation, the human is socialized through the manipulation of his or her actions with regard to objects; canonical uses are promoted, others punished. Canonical affordances are defined at the ecological scale of analysis and can hence be supposed to be specified in the Gibsonian sense. In fact, they are different from other affordances only because they are more regularly executed. Because the scale of affordances is not extended beyond the usual, this application of ecological tools does not face the same problems as the individual-level approach. Rather than assuming that social properties at the limit of (or beyond) the ecological scale are specified, social aspects are now introduced to study the selection of affordances. Note that related statements were made by L.S. Vygotsky (1978). Vygotsky described child development as a progressive enculturation process in which language is introduced through the association of words (referents) to activities that the child is doing, or affordances. In this way, language first allows the adult’s control over the infant’s behavior, to promote canonical affordances, and afterwards the child’s own regulation (referred to as self-regulation and linked to consciousness). The functional reorganization that language produces on human behavior was further analyzed by Luria (1973), who highlighted the inseparable relation of perception and action in a way that resembles the 3rd and 4th ecological principles of Richardson et al. (2008; see also Travieso 2007). Conclusions Then: Is ecological psychology relevant for areas beyond perception and action? Our answer is yes, because the approach attempts to ground human behavior through the search for lawful organism-environment relations. In the case of social psychology, independently of whether one adopts an individual-level, social synergy, socializing affordances, or other approach, this grounded view of human behavior seems to be a better starting point for the study of socio-cultural phenomena than the naïve realism of for instance behaviorism and cognitivism. Even so, the main interest of ecological psychologists is in perception and action, processes that are confined to a restricted level of analysis. This spatially and temporarily limited scale will not suffice for the study of socio-cultural, educational, political, and other processes with much larger scales, perhaps even with scales that go back to the origins of society. Hence, one should not necessarily expect ecological laws and principles to be appropriate to understand such processes. Note, though, that one cannot reject the validity of studies with smaller or larger levels of analysis; that would be analogous, we think, to rejecting current neurobiology because subatomic particles are not taken into account. 404 Integr Psych Behav (2009) 43:393–405 It is impossible to delimit the ecological scale with precision, but one should be careful not to stretch that scale too much. If one keeps stretching the focus of analysis, one will inevitably reach a point at which the ecological approach loses its rigor. The risk of including coarse-grained social and socio-cultural phenomena, to give an example, is that one might no longer be able to defend the existence of (detectable) specificational information. The existence of specificational information, however, is crucial, because it is necessary for the definition of perception as a resonance to such information, and hence for the ecological grounding of realism. Our main critique on Charles (2009) is that he does not sufficiently take these potential problems into account. In sum, in response to the title of Charles’ article, and in spite of his arguments, we find it easier to see what ecological psychology has to offer beyond his description of New Realism than the other way around. We conclude (1) that ecological psychology is of importance to fields of study beyond perception and action, (2) that several proposals in this regard have been developed and are currently being worked on, and (3) that the backwards extension to New Realism suggested by Charles holds some value but might not be the most promising among these proposals. 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