s Executive Interview
A lot of people in the industry
got into the real estate business
and weren’t in the entertainment
business. I think they lost sight
of the original mission. I’m not
putting a value judgement on
that; it’s just what happened. But
I do think it has led to a lot of
cynicism, especially with the
younger fans. I think the ubiquitous corporate sponsorship and
the sponsored tours are the antithesis of rock ‘n’ roll. It may be a
necessary evil but I don’t think it
benefits the health of our industry
in the long run.
Dave
Werlin
Great Northeast Productions
E
ven though Dave Werlin has been a musician,
booking agent, artist manager and an indepen-
dent record label exec, he is best known as a concert
promoter. More specifically, he is known for organizing and executing Phish’s huge
annual summer extravaganzas.
Concerts like Clifford Ball, The
Great Went and Lemonwheel have
set a standard for major musical
events by being peaceful, musically
daring, innovative and successful
from the business perspective.
This New Year’s Eve, Phish and
Werlin’s Massachusetts-based Great
Northeast Productions are going to
up the ante with an ambitious twoday concert and camping event
to usher in the new millennium.
The festivities will take place in the
heart of the Florida Everglades at
the Big Cypress Seminole Indian
Reservation, located midway between Naples and Fort Lauderdale.
It sounds like a lot of fun for tens
of thousands of fans. It sounds like
an almost inconceivable amount
of work for Werlin and his team.
Fortunately, the past Phish shows
have provided crash courses in politics, diplomacy, group psychology
and sanitation. He’s utilizing all
those skills for this latest project.
Werlin knows that people
wonder what motivates him to
stay involved in these massive,
exhausting shows and his answer
is surprisingly down-to-earth.
“One reason why I’ve stayed in
this business this long is because
I really believe that a lot of positive
social change comes out of the
entertainment business,” he said.
“We have the potential to bring
POLLSTAR
about positive change and I find
that very gratifying.”
The entrepreneurial music business was a natural fit for Werlin,
whose mother is a classically
trained singer/musician and father
is a successful self-employed businessman. He joined a band in high
school and even after the group
split up so the members could attend college, it kept a hold on him.
“Several of us were very disenchanted and dropped out of these
good schools and re-formed the
band. I was the one who handled
the business and got the gigs. Then
the band called a meeting and it
was decided that I wasn’t a serious
enough musician and that I should
consider not playing with them.”
He went back to college and the
band soon realized that no one else
in the group really wanted to take
on the task of getting gigs. That
was something Werlin did best.
“So they asked me to come live
with them and I dropped out of
college again. I had three majors
and never graduated. I loved music
so much – the idea of bringing live
entertainment that I liked to other
people was extremely attractive
to me.”
Eventually, Werlin saw that
there was a music renaissance
under way in the Boston area but
booking agents didn’t seem
interested in working with these
acts. “They booked Top 40 bands,
general business bands. There were
a number of very talented artists in
the area who were just blossoming
– Bonnie Raitt was just starting
out, James Montgomery Band, J.
Geils – and I saw an opportunity.”
He and a partner opened Pretty
Polly Productions and brought in
the company’s current chief, Howie
Cusack, as an agent. “All these
bands came to us because no one
else was handling creative, original
music. Then, we started middling
shows for colleges. We started
managing bands, then we started
being talent buyers for some people
who wanted to put on events.”
By 1984, Werlin had made
the transformation from agent
to promoter and launched Great
Northeast Productions.
What is your fundamental
goal as a promoter?
At the end of the day, the fans
are paramount. Our mission is
to advocate for the artist and the
fans. That’s our job. We enhance
the vision of the artist. We facilitate getting that vision out to the
most appropriate public, to make
those connections. In turn, we
want to give the fans the best
concert experience they can have.
I know that sounds really obvious
but I think a lot of what has
gone on in the last 20 years runs
contrary to that.
Your philosophy seems to
work well for Phish. How did
that relationship evolve?
We were aware that this band
was selling out small theatres
around New England without major label affiliation and no airplay.
Since we’re nomadic – not having a theatre or an amphitheatre in
Boston – we would go into these
other markets and were familiar
with these venues. We knew that
this band was selling out one,
two, three consecutive dates.
We were curious, so I arranged
to have a meeting with [Phish
manager] John Paluska. This was
back in 1991.
To my surprise and delight,
John knew who I was and knew
of the company. I was very
impressed with his musical knowledge, which is very extensive, and
we had a very pleasant meeting.
John already had an alliance with
Don Law in Boston but he said
if we wanted to present the band
in Maine, we were welcome to
do that. So we took the plunge
in 1992 and the relationship has
flourished.
I think John and I come
together with very different
but very complementary skill
sets, and that’s why things have
evolved in such a mutually
successful way. We found that
Phish and GNP share the same
philosophy. This is a very special
artist/promoter alliance. Our staff
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Executive Interview s
and their staff work together like a
well-oiled machine. We are friends
and the personal relationships
are deep.
At what point did you decide
to take the big summer show
to the next level?
Phish was growing exponentially every year. The Internet is
to the Phish community what FM
radio was for me back in the early
‘70s. The very poignant difference
is that we would listen to AOR
but it wasn’t truly interactive.
These people can really communicate with each other and become
friends. Phish got in on that very
early and the technology allowed
the community to grow.
We knew we had outgrown
Sugarbush, which was where we
were doing the summer event up
in Vermont. John said, ‘We’ve got
to get a bigger place,’ and I agreed.
We started looking around and
came up with the Plattsburgh Air
Force Base in New York for the
1996 event. Although we were
hoping we weren’t getting into
something crazy, we thought
we’d probably get a decent number
of people.
We were very pleased with the
number of fans that were willing
to travel so far. People came from
all 50 states as well as Canada and
Europe to spend three days in an
environment that we created.
It was like they were in a bubble.
We controlled all the aspects of
the whole experience. It was very
different than being herded like
sheep into a stadium. People had
a chance to appreciate the band
and each other, and create their
own culture. These people had
been communicating via e-mail
and chat rooms and now they
were all in one place. It was like
summer camp.
What’s it like to oversee
these huge events?
It’s the hardest work I’ve ever
done. It takes an enormous physi-
Page 50 2000 Edition
cal and emotional toll to do these
shows. But in the end, they have
been the most satisfying things
that I’ve been involved in during
my 25 years in the business.
You really are fulfilling the
mission of giving people a great
deal of joy, giving them the opportunity to grow culturally and
socially, giving them a lot of
positive reinforcement for doing
good things – social action. I don’t
mean that in an activist sense
but just showing them that doing
the right thing is its own reward.
We’ve been really blessed by
this relationship with Phish and
that community. We are really protective of them, and consequently,
very protective of our own credibility. For me, personally, having
creative input into these events
has been enormously gratifying.
How’s the New Year’s Eve
show shaping up?
The countdown is on. It’s going
well. It’s ... enormous. We’ve done
this before but it’s a grander scale.
It has its particular, unique facets
because it’s on sovereign Indian
land in an environmentally sensitive region. Unlike the airbases,
it’s entirely on grass, which
has necessitated the construction
of more than 10 miles of road,
plus bridges.
They have resources there,
which is one of the reasons why
we chose this site. They have a
construction company. We told
the Indians from the get-go that
we would give preferential treatment to tribal members for any
services and labor and we’ve
honored that. It’s been good for
us because they’re right there; their
stuff is there. They know the land.
It makes sense. We generally
hire and buy locally because it’s
politically advantageous.
It’s interesting because this
project is out of their experience.
It’s out of most people’s experience
anyway, but when we say we need
certain things for visual design
purposes, it seems very strange.
GREETINGS FROM “Camp” Oswego, July 1999. The crew commemorates another great
Phish event.
They’re not used to it. Who is?
They look at us funny.
A lot of people look at
concert-goers and promoters
funny after what happened
this summer.
Yes, particularly after what happened at Woodstock and the Dave
Matthews concert in Connecticut,
and in Ames, Iowa, with Phish.
These incidents aren’t necessarily
about the bands or the true fans.
There are other elements – other
forces involved – especially when
you’re talking about a bunch of
people in a parking lot who aren’t
even there to see the show. Then
the police get involved and before
you know it, the headlines are
all about how something bad
happened at this band’s show. And,
of course, the band was completely
unaware and not responsible for
the situation.
We know that our events are
going to be under scrutiny and
are going to get a lot of attention.
We try to be as proactive as we
reasonably can be, though it often
comes down to the fans’ use of
common sense.
What kind of statement
do you think the New Year’s Eve
show is going to make?
I think the Phish community
has proven to the world that not
all concert fans are going to act in
a stereotypical or predictable way –
like what happened at Woodstock
– at gatherings like this. Hopefully,
we will prove that you can’t generalize like that. Hopefully, that will
be the statement that comes out
of this, as it has been from all of
the events we have produced with
the band.
When you put that many
people together, it’s inevitable that
things will happen. I can’t think of
a city anywhere in the world that
has 50,000-100,000 people that
doesn’t have births, deaths, fights,
arguments, thefts, petty crimes,
whatever. It happens every day.
I think we’ve shown in the past
few years that the proportion
of these things happening at these
Phish shows is incredibly low.
How have you managed
to maintain such tight control
over these events?
As a company, we’ve been
involved in developing alternative
outdoor venues and producing
multistage, multi-artist, multi-day
events for 15 years. Personally,
I have done events of this nature
for more than 20 years.
We’ve built up to this scale over
a long period of time. I guess there
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s Executive Interview
was a quantum leap from the
15,000- to 20,000-capacity show
to the Clifford Ball, which by some
accounts did 100,000 people.
There’s a fundamental truism that
underlies our success: attention
to detail. It’s all in the details.
The organization brings people
in who are of the same mind.
We’ve been able to pull together
a group of enormously talented
people and we’ve had a lot of
loyalty here.
When we do these events, we
bring in people to head up various
aspects of the project, but because
we’ve been doing the events
annually for the past five years –
and this year we have two of them
– we almost regard them as fulltime staff because we see them
day in and day out.
We are probably going to camp
close to 1,000 staff members at
the site ourselves and so we have
to create facilities for them. We
have a lodging coordinator who
handles all the transportation and
logistics, a visual design department, and production coordinator
as well as camping, utilities,
credentials, communications,
motor pool, catering, and site
coordinators, to name a few.
There’s a group that works
with us coordinating the cleanup,
a group of avid environmentalists
called Clean Vibes who are unbelievable. Their efforts are truly
phenomenal and they have been
really essential to the success of
these shows. We’ve made huge
strides in dealing with trash.
Every one of these shows poses
an enormous environmental
challenge. I think we had almost
300 tons of garbage collected at
Oswego this summer and that was
way down from the year before.
dealing with the Seminole Indians.
But that’s one of the reasons why
these shows are so personally
satisfying. You take every bit of
knowledge from whatever source.
At some point, you will use it to
put these events together.
Did you ever think you’d
be a sanitation expert and
a politician?
Why would you reject
surefire revenue streams?
No. That would have been a
great answer to the ‘why are we
learning this’ question in junior
high. Someday, you are going to be
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Do you have a way of tracking
what works and what doesn’t?
There’s a learning curve. We do
a self-evaluation. Every department is required to write up a
report after the event, good, bad
or indifferent. We have New York
telephone book-size reports on
every one of these events. We
re-evaluate the way we do things
each time. The info is shared
with John Paluska and myself.
The management heads are
encouraged to speak freely and it
has been a very positive exercise.
We learn from every show.
We are interested in clever ways to
address problems and we’ve come
up with unique solutions. In addition, we get a great deal of feedback from the fans themselves.
I try to read and respond to as
many e-mails and letters as I can.
It seems like you go out
of your way to avoid exploiting
the audience at your shows.
We try to keep the total
experience as reasonably priced as
possible for the fans. This extends
from how much a beer or soda will
cost to how much an ATM or cell
phone transaction will cost, and
a whole lot more. We track everything. John and I review every
expense to the fans in an effort
to keep things reasonable. This
is something we’ve done from
the start.
We want to build an honest
relationship with the Phish community. This is the way it should
work with everybody, all the time.
It just so happens that Phish has a
large fanbase that is fairly cohesive
as a culture. But that’s not to say
that there aren’t other situations
where this policy would work.
It’s the golden rule, really: do
unto others. I like to be talked to
as a reasonable, intelligent adult
and have things explained. I like
to be told the reason why things
are done a certain way rather than
being treated like cattle.
Part of what has kept this community together is the trust that
they have with the Phish organization and with us. We value that
trust and we would never abuse it.
Is that why you don’t have
sponsors for these shows?
Sponsorship? The opportunities
are everywhere. But if you do it
once, it’s over. You’ve broken the
credibility with the fans. And why?
For what? So you can make an
extra $100,000 one time? It’s not
worth it on any level. We’ve long
since acknowledged that we’re in
this for the long run.
When you have a captive
audience, there are all sorts of
ways to exploit them. We know
that, but we’ve made a conscious,
deliberate, collective decision not
do it. I know the fans know that
and I know they appreciate it.
And we sleep better at night.
Does your company
have any corporate affiliation?
No, not that we haven’t had
the opportunity. We struggle with
it from time to time. Obviously,
if you own a venue, which we
don’t, then making those deals is
part and parcel to making the real
estate deal. It has a lot to do with
how you address the debt service.
I think it’s seen as necessary and
in some cases, it’s a way to make
a lot of money.
We have never been confronted
with that scenario because we have
chosen not to chase the real estate.
We’ve had the opportunity to get
involved in sponsorship and we
haven’t done it on a big scale. You
make a soda deal and a beer deal
for one big show.
We’ve been offered money
just to put a name on every show
that we do and we turned it down,
largely because it’s tough to put
a price on your credibility. If we
could find the appropriate partner
– a strategic corporate partner who
we felt was doing something that
was very positive socially — then
we’d consider it. It’s not worth it
to put our credibility on the line
for something that’s neutral or
negative, so we don’t.
Why do you think some
promoters compromise their
standards? Do they really have
a choice?
It’s a complicated issue. It’s a
vicious cycle and I don’t know
where it starts and ends. First of
all, like the stock market, our business is pretty much driven by fear
and greed. Fear that if I don’t go
along and pay the guarantee the
artist wants, they’ll go to someone
else. Greed because I want to take
on as much opportunity as I can.
Promoters have to look to other
ways to enhance their revenue
as more and more of the ticket
revenue goes to cover the artists’
guarantees. Somewhere, somehow,
people have got to start talking
about this in a fair way and that
hasn’t happened. We’ve been
having this same conversation
amongst ourselves for 10 years,
and while the topic doesn’t change,
some of the elements have.
Two conglomerates control the
majority of the concert venues
in America. It’s going to be
interesting to see how that turns
the tables.
So, where do we break
the vicious cycle?
I think that starts with the kind
of relationship we have with Phish,
but it’s a very unique situation.
I have enjoyed a certain amount
of loyalty from a few artists and
managers, which is what allows me
2000 Edition Page 51
Executive Interview s
to do this. Loyalty is not gone but
it is definitely in the endangered
species category right now. Bonnie
Raitt and a handful of other artists
have been with me since day one.
But when the agents or the managers or artists stop being loyal,
it sets in motion a whole different
mindset.
You have to wonder, what’s the
point? Do I beat them or do I join
them? Do I become part of the
antagonistic side and start seeking
out these revenues, or do I do
something else?
We’ve chosen to take the other
road. I don’t know how things are
going to end up in 10 or 20 years,
or even the next five years.
The reality is that the independent promoters are essentially
functioning as farm teams for
SFX and House Of Blues and
their like, and that’s unacceptable.
Unless we have some assurance
that there is some upside potential
in making the long-term commitment to a few artists, what’s
our incentive?
The hard part of growing an artist with long-term career potential
is putting the seeds in the ground
and watering them every day.
Once the artist starts growing into
the mighty oak, you need some
loyalty from the artist, manager
or agent because the people who
control the real estate will want
to take it away. So, why bother?
Maybe a record company will
step forward and subsidize the
farm teams. They may figure out
that this would be a good investment; I don’t know. But without
these assurances, I think the
independents are not going to
find enough motivation. The
long-term cost to the industry
of losing independent promoters
is not good.
I don’t know what the solution
is. Maybe Bob Sillerman will step
forward and say, ‘This is important
and we should have satellite
organizations that we support.’
There are so many passionate,
talented people in this business
who deserve to have a chance to
Page 52 2000 Edition
do the job. Their work benefits
everybody in the business.
What’s your take on the
omnipresent ticket price issue?
I used to agonize over the ticket
price for every show we’d do.
I didn’t want to raise ticket prices
very much, ever. I was scared
about hitting the $20, $25 mark.
I would agonize over the price
going up a dollar.
For us, it’s always been a simple
matter of looking at the true cost
of the show. You think about how
many people you’re going to get
and where you think you’re going
to break even, and whether or
not you’re willing to tolerate that.
You could raise the ticket price and
bring in less people. At some point
in that equation, you are going to
start turning people away.
When you look at career artists,
you can’t develop them and get
them a broader and broader
fanbase just by addressing the
diehard fans with a high ticket
price. That will shorten the career
of the artist because you don’t
attract new fans with a high
ticket price.
It’s ironic since now, we’re just
a farm team and all that thinking
is kind of parochial. I mean, what’s
the point? We would agonize
about this stuff but since the
Eagles did their breakthrough
$100 ticket ... you now see $250
tickets. All of a sudden, a $30
ticket doesn’t look so bad.
Has it just become a matter
of what the market can bear
rather than what’s fair?
That’s classic, short-term thinking. That’s Wall Street speaking.
Every three months, you want
to see profits. You’re not looking
at the landscape and saying, ‘OK,
we’re in this for the next 20 to
30 years.’
This is a dynamic business.
It’s pop music; it comes and goes.
There’s always a percentage of acts
capable of reaching people on a
IT’S TIME for a big thumbs up and a collective sigh of relief after Phish’s July 16,
1994, Sugarbush concert in Vermont. L-R: Former Phish business manager Burt
Goldstein, former tour manager Mike Frelone, John Paluska, Werlin, Phish
bassist Mike Gordon, and Monterey Peninsula’s Dan Weiner and Chip Hooper.
large scale and you can bring them
up to the arena level and maybe
the stadium level. Developing the
artist is the most important thing
but it’s a long-term roll of the dice.
You can’t do it quarterly; you have
to take the long view.
I’m sure managers have this
argument with their artists all
the time because the artist wants
to know why they aren’t making
as much money as the next act.
It’s certainly possible to go out
and try to make a lot of money
really quickly, and that’s what’s
happening.
I think that approach kills the
golden goose. I think it shortens
some artists’ potential career span
and it drives a lot of people away
from concerts as a lifestyle choice.
They can only afford to go out
once or twice a month so they’ll
go to the biggest shows. They’re
not able to support theatre level
or club level acts because they’re
tapped out. And then they start
discovering other, more affordable
forms of entertainment.
There are going to be a few
short years here where the money
rolls in and then things are going
to start to fall off unless something changes. Ticket prices are
making concerts more and more
an elitist leisure activity.
What are your goals
for the future?
Aside from continuing this relationship with Phish well into the
new millennium, we’re researching
festivals, multimedia arts and
conceptual presentations. I like to
see fans get more value for their
dollar – to create something that
has much more depth than just
going to a show. To me, that’s the
direction we need to take because
as the new media starts broadening, people are going to have more
entertainment and leisure options.
Maybe the Internet will fill the gap
that FM radio has left by becoming so mainstream. I see that as
potentially a very good thing.
We are looking into establishing a consulting arm that is
focused on developing alternative
venues and all aspects of producing mass gatherings, as well as a
return to personal management.
I think there are opportunities
but it’s going to take them awhile
to unfold. We’re good at finding
alternative venues, so if we can
create some interesting new
experiences for people in different
places, that will be fun. If we can’t
access talent – or at least access
talent we want – because a
conglomerate controls everything
or buys up every tour and we can’t
participate, then it’s time to find a
different job. *
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