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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
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TAPE 23
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(Tape #23.)
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here.
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How are you doing?
STEVE:
Not too bad.
HENRY:
Good.
STEVE:
He's doing real -- I see he's over
How's he doing?
He's got his eyes closed.
doing well.
He appears to be
They're going to take his -- probably the
signs again here very soon.
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HENRY:
HENRY:
Okay.
STEVE:
But -- and did you find out
HENRY:
Well, actually I went and I talked
anything?
to one of the bosses.
STEVE:
Yeah.
HENRY:
We, we don't have a good situation
in that they know specifically what happened.
STEVE:
They do or don't?
HENRY:
They do.
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STEVE:
Oh, they do.
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HENRY:
However --
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STEVE:
Yeah.
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Okay.
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HENRY:
-- as I said to you, you know, they
-- the bosses here are not happy with the, with the
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turn of events.
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where we went way out on a limb -STEVE:
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They feel that we're in a position
I can see what you're saying before
you're even going to say it, obviously.
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HENRY:
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's why I'm saying
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I would like to work with you so that we can get --
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and so that I can have a feeling that we're on a good
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working relationship.
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I still feel that way with you
-STEVE:
Well, I do, too.
HENRY:
-- and with David, too.
However,
their perception is quite different than my
perception.
That is to say --
STEVE:
I wish that -- you know, I hope -- I
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don't know that you're doing that or not, but I wish
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you had a speaker phone or a recording that when you
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talk to him or to me they could hear what he's saying,
I'm hearing.
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They can judge of the tone of voice,
material, the subject matter, whatever.
But I think
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that you would see us to be sincere.
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told or I'd tell them, is the program -- nothing's
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changed other than that, you know, from the time I've
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met him his experience has been one that's been of an
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I mean, like I
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other worldly way where I've not had experiences like
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that or I -- nor have I ever known anyone else to have
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had that.
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always been based upon how he's to be led.
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So, you know, like his every move, it's
HENRY:
Right, but --
STEVE:
So that's, you know, that's where
the difficulty comes in with not only a situation like
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this but, you know, there's been other ones where
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people don't know or understand that or it's something
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that's out of the ordinary to them.
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HENRY:
Um-hum.
See, but during this entire
process if we were, we were saying to you or telling
you that we were going to do one thing and we were
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working, you know, in such a fashion that we were
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starting to trust each other real well, and I asked
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you for something very significant and you said yes,
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but in, in return for that I would like you to do this
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for me, and I would say as soon as you do that for me,
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I will do that for you immediately.
STEVE:
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And I -- can I just say one thing?
Really what it comes down to for him and myself --
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this is really what it would be for me as to why I'm
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even waiting on him and I know that even if I -- and,
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by the way, I did ask him multiple times and he kept
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on giving me that same answer, "Wait."
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So it didn't
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matter how many times I asked him.
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HENRY:
Um-hum.
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STEVE:
But the bottom line for him as why
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he doesn't deviate from that or even myself is because
-- and that's what I don't think you would understand
like I would or my experience has been.
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God.
That's fear
I mean, he fears that if he does other than that
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which has been given to him, he is in no end of
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trouble and responsible for many, many individuals,
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more than those that are here.
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HENRY:
I understand.
STEVE:
And like with myself, that's why I
don't push him or anything because the experience I've
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had with him is that it's always worked out for the
best.
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HENRY:
I understand.
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STEVE:
So that's -- so, you know, it's like
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I'm caught between a hard place and a rock.
I
appreciate who you are and what you're -- and you want
to do and there -- and what we've worked up to this
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point, but it's like, it's like there has, from your
perspective probably, been a wrench dropped in there.
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HENRY:
That's right.
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STEVE:
And I understand.
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saying.
That's what I'm
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HENRY:
Because, because we went out on a
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limb to get a lot of these things.
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understand that we made phone calls --
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I mean, do you
STEVE:
I do.
HENRY:
-- to Phoenix so that we could have
agents go out in the middle of the night to work?
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Yes.
Jim told me that ahead of
HENRY:
All these things out. Okay.
time.
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STEVE:
Now, he
didn't ask for any of that.
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STEVE:
Right.
HENRY:
We went because we felt that this
was a legitimate situation -12
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STEVE:
I believe that.
HENRY:
-- where he sincerely believed that
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that's what he wanted to do and we didn't -- I mean,
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we could have -- we didn't have to tell him that.
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didn't ask for that.
STEVE:
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He
If this was another situation and
this was not as it was, and another human being did
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that for me, I mean, and I would not -- in a position
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like this, I -- man, I'd do anything in this world to
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encourage that kind of personality or that kind of a
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person showing those kind of traits to other human
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beings.
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I mean, there's nothing more commendable.
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But, you know, the bottom line is -- you know, I'm
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stuck myself.
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God he does and I know no matter what I say to him, he
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-- even if I walked away, if I had walked away six
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years ago,
I'm stuck because I believe in the same
he says, "Steve, I'm guided by this.
-- I've been given the seven seals.
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This
This is my life.
"And that same one that gave me the seals is the same
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one that directs me and that same one said to me
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wait," and, you know, with him, he told me that in the
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beginning, when that process was happening to him.
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When he went to Israel in '85 and that, that took
place in that time, it was a hard thing that he told
me to deal with in the beginning, being like anyone
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else.
HENRY:
And, and, you know, and I believe in
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him and in what he said and that's why I suggested
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that we do this.
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that we do that and he concurred, agreed, took what we
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He didn't ask for that.
I suggested
suggested and then he made a promise based on -- we
believed that he was being sincere --
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STEVE:
As me.
As me.
HENRY:
-- and he was being guided by God.
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And then for him to renege and, as far as the bosses
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are concerned, he reneged.
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in what you're saying and I believe that he will do
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Now, you know, I believe
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the right thing eventually.
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STEVE:
Right.
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HENRY:
But they are convinced --
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STEVE:
Okay.
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stuck.
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What am I going to do?
I'm
What would you -- I mean, I'm stuck -HENRY:
I understand.
STEVE:
-- between a hard place and a rock
HENRY:
I understand. And I feel that I'm
here.
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stuck, too, and I need for you to, as best as you can,
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if the opportunity presents itself to you, I need for
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you to let him know that I am, as you are, between a
rock and a hard spot --
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STEVE:
Right.
HENRY:
-- because I can't give you
anything, you know, until we get something in return.
STEVE:
Okay.
Were you able to relate to
them at least what I told you was happening within,
like everybody's waiting, they're dressed.
HENRY:
Yes.
STEVE:
I'm glad about that because --
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HENRY:
And that is helpful.
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STEVE:
Yeah.
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HENRY:
And I'm hoping that if at any moment
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Yes.
he sees a sign, hears a word, has a dream --
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STEVE:
Exactly, exactly.
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HENRY:
-- or whatever, that we will -- that
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we can proceed.
STEVE:
Exactly.
I am with you a hundred
percent on that, a hundred percent.
HENRY:
Okay.
STEVE:
Well, I'm glad you called and, well,
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at least you let me know.
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-- well, I knew you didn't know, you know, the details
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of the other.
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I mean, I knew you probably
HENRY:
Actually I did not.
STEVE:
Oh.
I mean, well, I don't mean you,
but I mean I'm -- I knew they were.
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HENRY:
Yes.
STEVE:
Overall I guess somebody -- yeah,
let me rephrase that.
HENRY:
Yes.
Do you feel that your goals
and David's goals are the same?
STEVE:
Well, after all this time I would
have to say in honesty, yes, I do.
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HENRY:
Okay.
Okay.
I do.
Now, if something were
to happen to him --
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STEVE:
Okay.
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HENRY:
-- I am going to rely on you to help
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me with this.
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STEVE:
Okay.
I realize that.
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HENRY:
Okay.
I can count on you?
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STEVE:
I sure hope so.
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HENRY:
Okay.
STEVE:
I'm going to do the best I can, you
HENRY:
Okay.
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STEVE:
-- for all that are, you know, and
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the good of all.
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HENRY:
Okay.
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STEVE:
So I just wish that, you know, like
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Okay.
know -6
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Okay.
yourself -- you know, the waiting game is always the
hardest.
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HENRY:
Yes.
STEVE:
And even myself, I've been a very
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impatient person all my life.
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this is happening because of me.
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Maybe it's -- maybe
I don't know.
HENRY:
(Laughter.)
STEVE:
I tell you what -- but I'll tell you
it's hard for me, too, and others.
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why -- here we're dressed yet.
You know, that's
It's not like you're
in your sleeping, retiring clothes for the evening.
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HENRY:
Um-hum.
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STEVE:
And so he says be ready as you were
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told, you know, because that's what it was and so
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that's the way the people are here.
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HENRY:
Okay.
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STEVE:
So that's why we're all waiting
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there and sometimes you're twiddling your thumbs and
sometimes you're looking at the watch and, and when
you ring me like this, I'm thinking well now, how much
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time went by, you know.
Sometimes it goes so slow
you're wondering just what's going on.
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HENRY:
Okay.
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STEVE:
But, yeah, we're waiting.
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HENRY:
Okay.
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If he talks to you, ask him
if he still realizes the position that I've been
placed in, if there's any way that we an work --
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Okay.
HENRY:
-- towards getting some of the kids
out if he is not ready for the entire group --
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STEVE:
STEVE:
I've been thinking about that
HENRY:
-- at this time.
STEVE:
And, as you said, you know, when he
myself.
-- usually he will start talking or, you know, he
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feels up to where he can start moving around more and
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so forth, but he's been --
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HENRY:
Okay.
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STEVE:
In the last hour or two, even though
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his blood pressure came up and he talked a little bit,
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he was talking with you then.
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just kind of waiting again to see what happens and --
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He hasn't since, so I'm
HENRY:
Okay.
STEVE:
-- and then I will communicate with
HENRY:
Okay.
him.
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I'll probably call you back
in a little while then.
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STEVE:
Okay.
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HENRY:
Okay?
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STEVE:
Talk to you later, Henry.
HENRY:
Okay.
You take care, Steve.
STEVE:
Okay.
Bye.
HENRY:
Bye-bye.
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* * * * *
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(Telephone ringing.)
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
Hello.
RACHEL:
Yes.
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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Hello?
This is Rachel.
Hi, Rachel.
How are you doing?
Fine.
Is David around?
Yes.
Let me -- kind of -- I think
he's sleeping. I believe he's sleeping.
HENRY:
Is there a chance that I could talk
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to him, please?
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RACHEL:
David?
He's sound
asleep.
HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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Just a minute.
Is he asleep or is he passed out?
No, he's not passed out.
Huh?
He's not passed out.
Are you sure?
Yeah.
Okay.
When was the last time that
you took his blood pressure?
RACHEL:
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Let's see.
RACHEL TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON IN BACKGROUND:
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How long ago was it when we took his blood pressure?
Twenty minutes ago?
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RACHEL:
saying.
HENRY:
RACHEL:
HENRY:
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About ten minutes ago, he was
RACHEL:
Was it the same?
Um-hum.
Okay.
All right.
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HENRY:
Good.
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RACHEL:
No.
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HENRY:
Okay.
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RACHEL:
No.
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Good.
Is Steve awake?
He's fallen asleep now.
Is, is everybody asleep?
Very doubtfully.
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HENRY:
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ready to go out?
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
RACHEL:
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Is, is everybody still dressed and
Yeah.
Okay.
We're certainly not going to put
our pajamas on.
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HENRY:
Really?
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RACHEL:
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HENRY: (Laughter.)
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RACHEL:
HENRY:
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No.
It's just a rest probably.
It's just a rest, you think?
RACHEL:
Who knows?
HENRY:
(Laughter.)
RACHEL:
sleep.
HENRY:
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RACHEL:
You know?
HENRY:
I'm sorry?
RACHEL:
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I don't know.
I myself, I'm tired, but I can't
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Well, you know, if he's
asleep, you may as well, right?
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No.
HENRY:
Um-hum .
Listening to the radio.
Listening to the news.
Are you listening to KRLD?
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RACHEL:
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(Background conversation.)
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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Um-hum.
Okay.
Everybody is pretty much.
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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Um-hum.
Well, a few.
Um-hum.
Not everybody.
Is everybody in good
health?
RACHEL:
Yes.
Same as they were last time I
Okay.
Did, did Steve talk to David
talked to you.
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HENRY:
about sending anybody else out?
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
Is anybody anxious to leave
No.
No?
RACHEL:
Not at all.
by that question?
Now, what do you mean
Let me make sure I understand
what you mean.
HENRY:
Well, you know, he had, he had told
me -- he had promised the world that he was going to
lead everybody out.
RACHEL:
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Okay.
that place or not?
HENRY:
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Oh, I don't know if he did or not.
HENRY:
Um-hum.
I assumed, based on what he said and
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based on the fact that everybody is dressed and ready
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to leave, that everybody was going to be leaving.
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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Um-hum.
Okay?
Is that the impression that
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you had?
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RACHEL:
him and the children went out the front.
HENRY:
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Uh-huh.
RACHEL:
Yes.
HENRY:
Okay.
Did -- was everybody prepared
to leave?
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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That we were going to leave after
Yes -Okay.
-- we were.
Okay.
But -- and but since he's
waiting for divine inspiration, how does everybody
feel about that?
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RACHEL:
HENRY:
What do you mean?
What I mean is do people still want
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to come out or don't want to come out?
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reluctance by some of the people left to leave?
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RACHEL:
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Well, we -- I'm not exactly sure
how to use the right words.
spokesperson.
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Is there a
I'm not a good
But, you know, we believe only he can
open the seven seals and God told him to wait and
that's what we're doing.
HENRY:
Yes, but what I'm saying is how does
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everybody feel in terms of their not being -- their
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not having left?
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Do they -- do you feel let down or -
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-
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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No.
-- are you happy that you're not
leaving?
RACHEL:
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No.
Neutral pretty much, I'd say.
I'm speaking for myself.
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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Just waiting.
Uh-huh.
I know it will all work out okay.
I'm sorry?
I know it will work out okay.
Okay.
What are your feelings in
terms of what's going to happen when you leave?
RACHEL:
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HENRY:
What do you mean?
See, I don't know -- I get the
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feeling sometimes that, that he doesn't want to leave
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because he's waiting to die.
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RACHEL:
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I don't know if you can jump to
that conclusion.
HENRY:
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Well, you know, and maybe I'm wrong,
you know, but -18
RACHEL:
No.
He was ready to go.
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laying here ready to die.
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was praying and God told him to wait.
HENRY:
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him?
Okay.
He's not
He was ready to go and he
Is this a normal practice for
Does he -- just is that what he does?
See, I'm
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not certain what it is exactly.
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RACHEL:
Well, Steve explained it very, very
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clearly to you I thought, because I was listening to
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him and he explained all that to you, that he doesn't
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do anything without, you know, like you said, divine -you used the word "divine inspiration."
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God tells him what to do.
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HENRY:
Yes.
inconsistency in that.
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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You know,
And, see, but there's an
He said that --
By your own interpretation.
Okay.
Well, then maybe not and
maybe you can explain it to me and I didn't understand
when I spoke to Steve about this because David said --
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and this was not based on my prompting him or
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anything.
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read over the radio that he was coming out
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immediately.
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That's what he said.
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He said that as soon as the message was
Now, I didn't ask him to say that.
RACHEL:
HENRY:
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Um-hum.
Okay?
Now, I don't understand why
if he said that that he's waiting.
Now -- okay.
Now,
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he, he has said that he's been told to wait.
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what I'm trying to understand is -- and when I say
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divine inspiration, I don't know if he's waiting to,
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to hear something or to see something or to dream
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Now,
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something.
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waiting for.
I'm not exactly sure what it is that he's
I'd like to be able to understand that.
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
HENRY:
voices
Do you know whether he hears
--
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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I'm sorry?
(Pause.)
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Well, I'm not --
Yes.
-- or see visions?
Yes, both.
Okay.
Before he -- before he does
something, that's what he does?
He either hears a
voice or, or sees a vision or something like that?
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RACHEL:
and the voice told him to wait, God's voice.
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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Well, like I said, he was praying
Okay.
God spoke to him, he's had visions
before.
HENRY:
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Okay.
Do you, do you feel either
nervous or happy or how do you feel about coming out
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of that -- out of the compound?
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RACHEL:
children.
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That's -- you know.
HENRY:
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that.
Well, I want to be with my
Okay.
Okay.
Well, I can understand
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RACHEL:
But they're not going to consider
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it -- they're going to consider it a crime or
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whatever, and you know.
HENRY:
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crime?
RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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Who's going to consider what a
Whatever took place here, you know.
Does that involve you?
They fired at us first.
Does that involve you?
What do you mean?
I live here.
Well, I understand that, but -- you
know, but, you know, the children live there, too.
I'm not real, real certain about this.
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RACHEL:
you know.
The children are, are very young.
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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Yeah, but the children don't know,
RACHEL:
Um-hum.
They don't know anything.
Do you think that -They know things, but they're not,
you know, of age.
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HENRY:
RACHEL:
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
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Do you think that that may
be one of the concerns that David has?
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Um-hum.
Concerned about what?
In terms of his reluctance to leave.
You mean, as to their safety?
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2
HENRY:
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His own.
Not so much safety,
but -RACHEL:
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4
No.
safety, no.
Oh, no.
He's not worried about his
He's got more -- his burden is much
heavier than that.
He is not worried about his, his
flesh.
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HENRY:
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RACHEL:
Um-hum.
Okay.
Okay.
Like he explained to you earlier,
8
that you try to hold -- I don't remember how he said
9
it now, but hold back, you know, what goes on out
10
11
there and he tries to keep the wrath of God from you,
people out there in the world, because -- I mean, if
you read the Bible and study it very much, I don't
12
13
know if you do, but when God gets angry, better watch
out.
14
HENRY:
15
RACHEL:
16
HENRY:
17
19
I mean, nature takes place.
Um-hum.
Well, that's true.
I can
understand that.
RACHEL:
18
Um-hum.
And he would like for the whole
world to be saved.
HENRY:
Well, see, and I think a lot, and I
20
think a lot of -- millions of people listened to his,
21
to his word and we facilitated that.
22
get that message out, and part --
23
24
25
We helped him to
22
1
2
RACHEL:
We couldn't even talk to the media.
HENRY:
3
4
5
HENRY:
7
RACHEL:
phone.
I made that available for
HENRY:
10
RACHEL:
that.
Yeah, but I'm saying -Okay?
-- we were calling them on the
They were calling us on the phone before.
9
Um-hum.
Well --
I mean, I appreciate you doing
Don't get me wrong.
HENRY:
12
We made all of that
him.
RACHEL:
11
Wait a second.
available to him, you know.
6
8
Um-hum, and then you cut us off.
Okay.
But one of the things that we
did is we facilitated that process for him --
13
RACHEL:
14
HENRY:
Um-hum.
-- and in exchange for that he made
15
a promise and gave his word, and the problem that I
16
have is I want to continue having a good working
17
relationship with him -RACHEL:
18
HENRY:
Um-hum.
-- but the bosses here feel that he
19
reneged on his word.
20
we're in.
21
there was some way that I could resolve this so that
22
we could have a situation consistent with my being
23
24
25
Now, that's the position that
I'm in a difficult position.
I wish that
23
1
able to say, "Look.
2
but he's at least willing to give us some additional
3
people or something."
4
5
RACHEL:
Well, I can't, I can't, you know,
speak for that, you know.
HENRY:
6
You know, he is waiting for this,
Okay.
Okay.
If something were to
happen to him, that is if his health were to fail him,
7
you know, and you and I spoke about this before, I
8
would like to feel that you can take a position of
9
leadership within the, within the compound.
10
11
RACHEL:
HENRY:
Why is that?
Because we need for everybody to
follow the lead -12
13
14
RACHEL:
I don't have communication with God.
HENRY:
16
RACHEL:
RACHEL:
20
HENRY:
21
RACHEL:
22
HENRY:
24
25
Okay.
You know, people do what they feel
Okay.
Okay.
Do you feel that it
might be right for you to come out?
19
23
I don't --
would be right to do.
HENRY:
18
You mean, follow,
follow me and I, I don't -- I wouldn't know, you know.
15
17
Follow a person?
Well, that's what we planned.
Okay.
That was, you know, the agreement.
Okay.
Well, hopefully we can, we
24
1
can establish contact with him and/or with you and we
2
can move in that direction.
3
asleep for a long time?
RACHEL:
4
HENRY:
5
Do you think he'll be
I don't know.
Okay.
Well, does everybody feel
that the only way that they can come out is for David
6
to come out first?
7
8
RACHEL:
made and we're going to stick to that way, so -HENRY:
9
10
11
Well, that's the agreement that was
Okay.
Okay.
Do you feel that
that's like a, like a pledge or, or a serious contract
that they -- that you have with him?
And when I say
you, I mean the rest of the people, not so much you,
12
but --
13
RACHEL:
Yes.
14
HENRY:
Okay.
15
RACHEL:
16
17
thought of it, you know, the way you're describing it.
I haven't thought about it like that.
HENRY:
18
I'm not sure I -- I haven't really
Um-hum.
you would do me a favor?
Um-hum.
Okay.
Well, if
If you will kind of watch
19
his
20
-- you know, watch for his medical condition, I'd
21
really appreciate it.
22
23
24
25
RACHEL:
Okay.
25
1
HENRY:
2
RACHEL:
3
HENRY:
4
Okay?
All right.
Okay.
I'll probably be in touch
with you in awhile.
RACHEL:
5
HENRY:
About how long do you think?
6
RACHEL:
Pardon me?
About how long?
I'm -- I mean,
7
before Steve went to sleep, he said that if, you know,
8
David woke up or he woke up whichever comes first --
9
and they spoke, then if things changed he would call
10
you.
HENRY:
11
RACHEL:
Pardon me?
12
He said that he would call you, you
know.
13
HENRY:
Well, see, I'm in a, I'm in a
14
difficult position and I've been put in this position
15
by David.
16
I went, I went real far on this because I believed
17
him.
Okay?
David made a -- gave me his solemn word and
I'm in a very difficult position of
having to answer, having to answer up as to why David
18
is not, you know, doing what he gave his word that he
19
was going to do.
20
want to, I don't want to bother you.
21
bother anybody.
22
situation where I can feel good about having to
23
24
25
So, you know, believe me, I don't
I don't want to
I just want to try to be in a
26
1
explain why David is doing whatever it is that he's
2
doing.
3
RACHEL:
4
HENRY:
5
Um-hum.
And at some point or another I need
to talk to David so that I can put myself again in a
good working relationship with him.
6
7
8
9
10
11
RACHEL:
HENRY:
And I need periodically to check on
David's medical health and I have that responsibility.
If he were to die, you know, and I don't make an
effort to try to get him out, then I will be held, you
know, as not having done what I need to do.
RACHEL:
12
Um-hum.
Um-hum.
(Background conversation.
13
HENRY:
14
RACHEL:
15
HENRY:
Hello.
16
RACHEL:
Yes.
17
HENRY:
RACHEL:
18
19
21
RACHEL:
22
HENRY:
24
25
Hello?
Is Steve there?
He's being disturbed by this.
I'm sorry?
I guess he phased in.
some sleep.
HENRY:
23
Steve?
disturbed by the conversation.
20
Indiscernible).
David?
No.
Steve?
He was being
He's trying to get
27
1
RACHEL:
2
HENRY:
3
RACHEL:
4
5
7
Does he want to talk?
I don't think so.
He was trying to
conversation -- someone just -- oh, he just corrected
Somebody else was making some commotion and he
was trying to tell them to be quiet, he was getting
some sleep or something or other.
8
9
Oh, okay.
-- you know, he was sleeping and I guess the
me.
6
Yeah.
HENRY:
Okay.
Okay.
Well, I'll call you
back in a little bit.
RACHEL:
10
HENRY:
11
RACHEL:
12
HENRY:
13
Okay.
Okay.
You take care, Rachel.
All right.
Bye.
Bye-bye.
* * * * *
14
(Telephone ringing.)
15
RACHEL:
Hello?
16
HENRY:
Rachel?
RACHEL:
17
HENRY:
18
RACHEL:
Yes.
How's everybody doing?
Okay.
19
HENRY:
20
RACHEL:
Just a minute.
I can't tell.
David?
Looks like it.
Are you there?
21
22
23
24
25
a second.
HENRY:
Is he still asleep?
Hello?
Wait
28
1
RACHEL:
2
HENRY:
3
RACHEL:
4
HENRY:
5
RACHEL:
Yes.
Yes.
I'm here.
Is he asleep?
Looks like it.
And Steve is, too?
Just a minute.
STEVE:
Henry?
HENRY:
Steve?
7
STEVE:
Hello?
8
HENRY:
Steve?
9
STEVE:
Yeah.
10
HENRY:
How are you doing?
STEVE:
Well, I just -- I was trying to
6
11
sleep, but I can't anyway, so it's all right.
12
13
14
HENRY:
(Laughter.)
STEVE:
Yeah.
I'm just trying to -- you
know, thinking over a lot of things, of course.
15
HENRY:
Uh-huh.
16
STEVE:
So what's up?
HENRY:
Oh, nothing.
17
Just wanted to make
sure everything's okay, everybody's -18
STEVE:
I've been keeping a -- every now and
19
then because I haven't slept.
20
watch on him and --
I've been keeping a
21
HENRY:
Um-hum.
22
STEVE:
-- his condition and he seems to be,
23
24
25
29
1
you know, very stable as to what it last was so, if
2
anything it seems, you know, better.
3
HENRY:
Okay.
4
STEVE:
So hopefully it will be an
5
improvement and so that doesn't seem to be as major a
concern, but I guess one doesn't know.
6
HENRY:
Now, is he resting comfortably?
7
You're not -- you don't think there's anything wrong
8
with him, do you?
9
10
11
STEVE:
No, because a little while ago, just
before you called, I was looking around carefully and
checking and, you know, breathing rate and all the
rest and everything is the same.
12
13
HENRY:
Um-hum.
STEVE:
And, you know, she was probably
14
going to take some signs, too, again, but I guess he
15
was resting so well they decided just to leave him be
16
for a little bit.
17
HENRY:
Okay.
Now, what are your thoughts?
Is, is everything -18
19
STEVE:
Well, we're kind of waiting to, you
know, to be able to talk again.
20
HENRY:
Okay.
21
STEVE:
Yeah.
22
23
24
25
And I thought maybe by now
but, you know, not just yet, I guess.
30
1
HENRY:
Okay.
2
STEVE:
But he usually wakes up every now
HENRY:
Okay.
STEVE:
Yeah.
3
and then.
4
5
But as soon as I find, I'll
give a buzz back there.
6
7
10
11
Okay.
Now, has he eaten since this
STEVE:
Let's see.
morning?
8
9
HENRY:
I've been around him
quite a bit through the day and I, I know last night
for sure.
Today I'm not -- I can't remember or
remember what anybody said about that, but probably
so.
12
HENRY:
Okay.
13
STEVE:
Yeah.
14
HENRY:
Okay.
15
his, you know --
16
STEVE:
Yeah.
HENRY:
-- on his medical condition
17
Well, I want you to check on
periodically.
18
19
STEVE:
Yeah.
We'll keep doing that.
Yeah.
She's been -- you know, the nurse has been waiting
20
to, you know, take another couple readings and -- but
21
I guess he's just been doing so well for the past hour
22
or two, I guess, she thought he might come around now
23
24
25
31
1
anytime so, so I kind of went by, you know, what she
2
thought about it.
3
HENRY:
Okay.
4
STEVE:
Yeah.
HENRY:
Okay.
5
Well, I don't -- I want
everything to, to move in the direction that we were
6
7
8
9
10
11
moving in, and sometime maybe -STEVE:
Right.
I'm open for communication
there, too.
HENRY:
Um-hum.
Maybe, maybe once we --
I'll probably call back after awhile and, you know, if
he's awake by then -STEVE:
Yeah.
HENRY:
-- I'll try to talk to him.
13
STEVE:
Okay.
14
HENRY:
But, but I want you to be thinking
12
That sounds good.
15
in terms of -- see, what I think is going to happen is
16
I think he's going to be one of the first ones coming
17
out of that -- coming out of there when we -- when
that takes place, and I think you're going to be one
18
19
20
of the last people that come out of there, so I want
you to be thinking -STEVE:
Well, if it's -- you know, if it's
21
the best -- I mean, as you see it, -- you know, I'm
22
willing, whatever, you know.
23
24
25
32
1
HENRY:
Okay.
2
STEVE:
And if you think that would be the
3
4
5
6
best thing -HENRY:
I think so.
I think so.
And I want
you to, I want you to organize everybody.
STEVE:
Yeah.
HENRY:
Okay?
And what we're probably going
7
to do is, you know, we -- after we take him out of
8
there, then what we're going to probably need to do is
9
I'll probably need for you to organize the men and
10
11
then we'll take the men.
out periodically and then we'll take the women and
children or, or whatever.
12
You know, we'll send one guy
Okay?
But I want you to be
the last person because I want everybody to, to feel
13
secure and I think that they'll probably feel secure
14
once he's gone, you know, if you're there.
15
STEVE:
Yeah.
16
HENRY:
The stabilizing force.
STEVE:
Well, how do you mean?
I mean, I
guess I'm not quite getting the picture.
I've been
17
18
19
trying to wake -- okay, I better get a little more
alert here.
20
HENRY:
Um-hum.
21
STEVE:
So are you -- okay.
22
23
24
25
When you're
saying like take him out, well, how do you mean?
33
1
HENRY:
2
somebody to carry him out.
3
STEVE:
Right.
4
HENRY:
Okay?
5
6
Well, we're going to, one, need for
So you have that stretcher
that we left there, right?
STEVE:
Exactly.
HENRY:
Okay.
Well, we're going to need
7
somebody to carry him out, you know, and then we'll
8
probably put him in some kind of a, some kind of a
9
ambulance type vehicle.
10
11
STEVE:
Um-hum.
HENRY:
Okay?
to a hospital.
12
Okay.
And he'll probably be moved
So we're going to need for you
to line up the people that are, that are going to
13
require medical attention, you know, and probably a
14
lot of the guys -- a lot of the men are going to, are
15
going to be in that kind of a position.
16
for you to line them up according to who's hurt the
17
18
So we'll need
most or whatever.
STEVE:
Well, that makes sense.
HENRY:
So I don't know how many men, you
19
know, are going to need assistance.
20
we're going to have to carry anybody out or not, but
21
if that's the case, I want you to line them up next so
22
that we can make arrangements to get them to -- into -
23
24
25
I don't know if
34
1
-you know, into a hospital or, or to at least get some
2
kind of medical attention as soon as is possible.
3
STEVE:
Right.
4
HENRY:
Okay.
5
And then, and then after we
get all the men out of there, then we'll, then we'll
go to the women because probably the women and
6
children are the ones that are, that are probably in
7
the best physical condition.
8
come out last.
9
10
11
STEVE:
Okay.
HENRY:
Okay.
And then I want you to
Yeah.
That's not a problem
at all.
Okay.
Have you been able to
get any rest yourself?
12
STEVE:
Well, I don't know.
It's a funny
13
night because, you know, I mean, I would have thought
14
I would have, but I've been having a hard time falling
15
asleep, kind of starting -- I start to fall asleep
16
and, and I guess it was -- you know, it's been a lot
17
18
of expectation.
HENRY:
Um-hum.
STEVE:
And, like I was telling you before,
19
you know, waiting is not always the easiest thing, but
20
-- and, you know, I'm always waiting to see, you know,
21
where he might be, you know, physically in the rest
22
and waiting for a word or two, so --
23
24
25
35
1
HENRY:
Okay.
2
STEVE:
Yeah.
3
HENRY:
Okay.
4
STEVE:
Okay.
HENRY:
What I would like for you to do as -
5
Well, listen.
-if you have some, some paper and pencil, I want you
6
to start, you know, preparing some kind of a, you
7
know, some kind of a report for me later.
8
want you to do is I want you to give me a survey of,
9
of the kind of injuries that some of the people,
10
11
And what I
especially the men, have and what you -- you know, if
you think we're going to need some more stretchers and
I want you to tell me how many we're going to need in
12
that kind of a situation so we have enough.
13
STEVE:
What time do you have there, Henry?
14
HENRY:
Pardon me?
15
STEVE:
What time do you have there?
16
HENRY:
It's a little after 3:00.
17
I
probably won't call you back until around 5:00 or
something.
18
STEVE:
Okay.
I think what I'll do then is
19
probably more towards the morning then I'll probably
20
get up there --
21
HENRY:
Okay.
22
STEVE:
-- and try to go talk and see what I
23
24
25
36
1
can do with some of the people and the guys.
2
HENRY:
Okay.
3
STEVE:
Yeah.
4
HENRY:
Now, if you think that somebody's
5
Okay.
got, you know, something where we have a situation
that's going to require because somebody has an
6
infection or, or something like that --
7
STEVE:
That probably would be, that
8
probably would be that someone would.
9
-- I know for sure one individual I would suspect for
10
I'm -- I think
sure, you know.
HENRY:
11
Okay.
Well, you know, if we need to
take care of him first thing in the morning, let's do
12
that.
13
STEVE:
Okay.
14
HENRY:
Okay?
15
STEVE:
You know, we're still waiting for,
16
17
you know, like I said, you know, like word from him
and -HENRY:
That's fine.
STEVE:
Yeah.
19
HENRY:
Okay.
20
see what his thinking is.
21
STEVE:
18
22
23
24
25
Talk to him about that and
Okay, because -- I suppose, you
know, if, if that would work the best and everything
37
1
because of -- well, you know, just what you all said
2
earlier, other than the time period.
3
HENRY:
Um-hum.
4
STEVE:
I'm sure that probably would not be
5
a problem.
HENRY:
Okay.
STEVE:
So as soon as I have an opportunity,
6
7
then I'll --
8
HENRY:
Okay.
9
STEVE:
-- I'll talk to him about it.
10
HENRY:
Okay.
11
Now, talk to him about this,
too, and if we have some people that are dead within,
you know, your area --
12
Um-hum.
HENRY:
-- and we need to carry them out,
13
STEVE:
14
then let me know because we're going to have to make
15
arrangements for that.
STEVE:
All right.
HENRY:
Okay?
STEVE:
Okay.
And I guess I'll try to get a
Okay.
Do we have some dead people
16
17
18
19
20
few hours.
HENRY:
within the place?
21
STEVE:
I'm suspecting so --
22
HENRY:
Okay.
23
24
25
38
1
STEVE:
-- but, you know, I suppose what
2
I'll do is have the nurses check to make sure and get
3
counts and, and the rest of it.
4
5
6
HENRY:
Okay.
Keep in mind, though, that
there is this -- this can become a health issue.
STEVE:
Right.
HENRY:
We don't want the kids, you know --
7
nothing, I mean -- not for anything.
8
these kids to, you know, to be in the situation,
9
number one, where they're going to be traumatized
10
We don't want
and/or it becomes a health issue.
STEVE:
Um-hum.
HENRY:
Okay?
STEVE:
I understand that.
13
HENRY:
Okay.
14
STEVE:
Yeah.
15
HENRY:
So I'll check back with you in a
16
couple of hours.
11
12
STEVE:
All right.
HENRY:
Okay.
STEVE:
Okay.
Talk to you later, Henry.
19
HENRY:
Okay.
You take care?
20
STEVE:
Okay.
Bye.
21
HENRY:
Bye-bye.
17
18
22
23
24
25
* * * * *
39
1
(Telephone ringing.)
2
RACHEL:
3
HENRY:
4
RACHEL:
5
HENRY:
RACHEL:
6
HENRY:
Hello?
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
How are you?
7
RACHEL:
8
HENRY:
Is Steve around?
9
RACHEL
Um-hum.
10
STEVE:
Hello?
HENRY:
Good morning.
STEVE:
Oh, yes.
HENRY:
I'm sorry?
13
STEVE:
I said it's hard to tell.
14
HENRY:
Is it early?
15
STEVE:
Tired.
16
HENRY:
Tired?
STEVE:
Yeah, very much so.
HENRY:
Um-hum.
STEVE:
Yeah.
11
12
17
18
Oh, I'm all right.
Just a minute.
It's hard to tell.
How do you feel?
I've been waiting for a
19
movement with him, but he's -- I'm looking over here -
20
-breathing the same.
21
seems to be doing okay.
22
23
24
25
HENRY:
Keeping an eye on him and he
Uh-huh.
40
1
STEVE:
He's been -- he's still out, though,
3
HENRY:
Totally out?
4
STEVE:
Yeah, sleeping all this time.
2
5
totally.
moved around quite a bit before and I was, you know,
watching him and everything.
6
He
I thought maybe he'd
wake up, but he just kinda -- he didn't.
7
HENRY:
Do you think he's got a fever?
8
STEVE:
No, because he has been checked.
9
10
11
Every now and then they do it.
their -- like their hand on his forehead or something
like that, without taking --
12
13
You know, they all put
HENRY:
Um-hum.
STEVE:
-- of the total temperature, like a
thermometer.
14
HENRY:
Uh-huh.
15
STEVE:
Yeah.
16
HENRY:
I need some help with a situation,
STEVE:
Well, that's what, you know -- even
17
18
It's --
Steve.
right now I'm trying to -- well, I was hoping, you
19
know, to stand by you, that I'd be -- well, at first,
20
in fact it looked like maybe he was going to wake up a
21
little bit ago and he was moving around.
22
23
24
25
HENRY:
Uh-huh.
41
1
2
STEVE:
But then he just -- although this is
really the first time he's got any really good sleep.
3
HENRY:
Um-hum.
4
STEVE:
Um-hum.
HENRY:
And the inquiries are from relatives
5
I'm getting some inquiries.
of some of the people that are within the compound.
6
STEVE:
Okay.
7
HENRY:
Sherry Jewell.
8
STEVE:
Okay.
9
HENRY:
Is she okay?
10
STEVE:
Sherry Jewell, I believe, is okay.
HENRY:
Okay.
STEVE:
Mary Jean Borst?
11
12
13
What about Mary Jean Borst?
trying to remember all of the ones I've seen there -yes, I believe she's all right.
14
HENRY:
She's okay?
15
STEVE:
I believe so.
16
HENRY:
Okay.
17
18
19
20
Oh, let's see, I'm
Okay.
Yeah, I think her son called.
How about David Dibodo (phonetic sp.), Dibodo?
STEVE:
What was that last name?
HENRY:
David Dibodo.
STEVE:
Maybe Tibido.
You know, all of
these, I haven't seen just --
21
HENRY:
Huh?
22
STEVE:
I haven't seen everybody so I'm not
23
24
25
42
1
too sure.
Let's see.
2
HENRY:
You don't know if he's okay?
3
STEVE:
No.
4
HENRY:
Huh?
STEVE:
I'm not too certain about him.
HENRY:
You're not certain about him?
STEVE:
There's probably about -- I would
5
6
I'm not too certain, but I --
7
say half of them I might know about but, you know, I -
8
- the other -- not all am I too sure about.
9
HENRY:
Uh-huh.
10
STEVE:
Let's see.
11
What about Jeff Little?
Jeff?
I've heard
somebody mention him so I guess apparently he must be
all right.
12
13
HENRY:
He must be all right?
STEVE:
I would think so.
I haven't -- you
14
know, not everybody have I seen, but it seems like I
15
heard somebody mention his name.
16
17
HENRY:
Um-hum.
In what context?
STEVE:
Let's see.
When was it?
It was
probably yesterday -18
HENRY:
Uh-huh.
19
STEVE:
-- that I heard somebody mention his
20
name for doing something.
21
HENRY:
Okay.
22
STEVE:
Douglas -- yeah, Martin -- yeah,
23
24
25
I don't remember what.
What about Douglas Martin?
43
1
Wayne's here.
That's Wayne.
He's okay.
2
HENRY:
Huh?
3
STEVE:
He's all right.
4
HENRY:
Douglas is okay?
STEVE:
Um-hum.
HENRY:
Okay.
5
6
Can you do me a favor?
Can
you try to see if you can, you know -- after we, we
7
finish talking if you can find out what the status is
8
on David Tibido and on Jeff Little for sure?
9
know, you don't have to find out this instant but, you
10
11
You
know, if you can find out and then when we call you
back later sometime, maybe you can let us know.
STEVE:
Okay.
I definitely will try to do
13
HENRY:
Okay.
Okay.
14
STEVE:
I'm hoping that the weather here
12
15
16
17
18
that.
will warm up.
HENRY:
Yes.
STEVE:
It's kind of cold in here.
HENRY:
It's supposed to.
It's supposed to
get warmer as the day goes today.
19
STEVE:
Oh, that sounds good.
20
HENRY:
Okay?
21
STEVE:
Okay.
22
23
24
25
I'll do that and definitely,
you know, get that information back to you.
I'm
44
1
hoping, you know, that -- I think -- I really think
2
that he'll be awake here in not too long.
3
4
7
sorry.
10
13
STEVE:
Yeah, I was.
HENRY:
Okay.
So have you had a -- I'm
we spoke about earlier, that is to make a list of -STEVE:
I mentioned it to -- there was one
of the guys that came along and so I told him to help
me out a little bit on that.
11
12
Were you asleep when I
Have you had a chance to, to work on, on what
8
9
Okay.
called?
5
6
HENRY:
HENRY:
Uh-huh.
STEVE:
And I said I'd -- in fact I thought
maybe by then -- I was hoping to have talked to David
already.
14
HENRY:
Uh-huh.
15
STEVE:
So I'm sure anytime now because a
16
17
18
19
lot of times he'll sleep for a period of time -HENRY:
Um-hum.
STEVE:
-- and then he's back with, you
know, talking a little bit and -- but I think this is
probably -- he's never had so much sleep ever.
20
HENRY:
Um-hum.
21
STEVE:
He's never been one that ever got a
22
23
24
25
whole lot of sleep.
45
1
HENRY:
Uh-huh.
2
STEVE:
Well, you know, he's not usually one
He doesn't sleep a lot?
3
of those kind of people that have to have their eight
4
hours a night.
5
6
11
STEVE:
There always someone calling him or
HENRY:
Yeah.
Do you think, do you think
everybody's ready to come out today?
STEVE:
9
10
Um-hum.
wanting to talk with him or something.
7
8
HENRY:
Oh, yeah, no question.
In fact,
just looking around here, like yesterday it started
warming up.
You know, it wasn't too bad of a day and
I see a lot of people here -- I mean, everybody I -12
that I can see when I looked around or moved around a
13
little bit is still just the same way other than
14
having a couple of jackets on here and there and
15
coats.
16
17
HENRY:
Um-hum.
STEVE:
Yeah.
In fact, I don't see anybody
that's really gone and like changed any clothes or
18
anything else.
They're just waiting just like you
19
said, you know.
20
else, but they're waiting.
21
HENRY:
Okay.
22
STEVE:
So they're expecting still to leave.
23
24
25
He never told them don't do anything
46
1
2
HENRY:
Okay.
So, hopefully, as soon as he
gives the word everybody will --
3
STEVE:
Exactly.
4
HENRY:
Okay.
5
in terms of, of procedurally doing it the way that we
talked about.
6
And I still want you to think
Okay?
STEVE:
Right.
In fact, I started to --
7
after I talked to you, I thought maybe he might have
8
been awake, so I started to say a few things there,
9
but I -- then I noticed he was out still so, you know,
10
11
12
13
14
I've been still waiting on that.
HENRY:
Um-hum.
STEVE:
BUt I think pretty much so when it
starts getting light I'm sure he'll be awake.
I'm
counting on it anyway.
HENRY:
Okay.
Okay.
I want you to take a
15
lead on this because, you know, as we spoke about
16
once, once we carry him out, you know, we're going to,
17
we're going to solicit your help and we're going to
need your help and cooperation to insure that
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
everything gets done in a fashion that everybody is
happy with.
STEVE:
Right.
Well, that's why, you know,
I'm hoping to talk with him here so we can get going.
HENRY:
Okay.
47
1
STEVE:
Yeah.
2
HENRY:
Okay.
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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25
(End of Tape 23.)
Then start, then start --