Interview of Former Special Agent of the FBI
Charles E. Higdon (1940 - 1945)
Interviewed by Brian R. Hollstein
On August 11, 2004
Edited for spelling, repetitions, etc. by Sandra Robinette on February 25, 2005. Final Edit for
corrections by Mr. Higdon and Mr. Hollstein by Sandra Robinette on March 28, 2005
Brian Hollstein:
Just a little lead in to it and then we can get started talking.
Unknown:
Alright.
Brian Hollstein:
My name is Brian R. Hollstein. Today’s date is August the 11th,
2004. I’m talking to Charles E. Higdon, H-i-g-d-o-n, of Knoxville,
Tennessee. This interview is being conducted on the telephone.
Before we start there’s a little something I want to read to you
Charlie and then I’ll also send a copy to you for signature. What it
is, is a Copyright Release and Background Form. And it says,
“We the undersigned, undersigned convey the rights to the
intellectual content of the, of our interview on this date to the
Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI. This transfer is in
exchange for the Society’s efforts to preserve the historical legacy
of the FBI and it’s members. We understand that portions of this
interview may be deleted for security purposes. Unless otherwise
restricted, we agree that acceptable sections can be published on
the worldwide web and the recordings transferred to an established
repository for preservation and research.”
Now, at any time while we’re talking if you feel that you don’t
want to have something recorded, please tell me right away and I’ll
turn off the machine.
Charles E. Higdon:
Alright.
Brian Hollstein:
And if there’s anything that you would like to restrict for a period
of time, for some reason, please let me know. We will honor your
request and just hold back that section, whatever it might be, until
you feel it’s appropriate to be released.
A couple of other little ground rules. We don’t want the names of
any informants mentioned. And what we can do there is to just
give them another name of some kind, if you want to refer to an
informant.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 2
We don’t want to get too technical in describing any recent
methods. I don’t think that’s going to happen with us since we’re
dating back to the Second World War. We also want to avoid any
talk of matters of a technical nature along those lines that might
still be in use.
Okay. Also if you were undercover, we don’t want the name of
the company that gave you the cover. You can say if it was a
mining company or it was a banking organization or something
like that, and we’ll just leave it that way.
After we complete the interview, I will send you this Copyright
Release and Background Form for signature.
Charles E. Higdon:
Checking, you’re double-checking that way.
Brian Hollstein:
Right.
Charles E. Higdon:
Can I make corrections on that like I would Congressional
testimony?
Brian Hollstein:
Absolutely. This is on the Release Form itself. Once we have
done the transcript will be sent to you for review.
Charles E. Higdon:
Good.
Brian Hollstein:
You can get a look at it and a lot of times, things like spelling
needs to be fixed. Many times the transcribers aren’t used to Latin
American names or locations and what have you and things get
messed up that way. So, we have considerable control over the
whole process and we want to make sure that it works smoothly
and that you’re pleased with the results too at the end.
Charles E. Higdon:
Very good. The ex-FBI Foundation is the one that’s doing this?
Brian Hollstein:
Well, they’re supporting it. Right.
Charles E. Higdon:
Okay.
Brian Hollstein:
Financially.
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Charles E. Higdon:
I see. It’s an official thing, in other words?
Brian Hollstein:
Oh yes it is. The Society and I’m unpaid. I’m a former Agent
myself and just doing this for the love of it. But we have a paid
consultant, Sue Rosenfeld, who is our former FBI Historian. In
fact, she has put together the program for us and helps us manage
it. And then I have an assistant who works part-time handling the
administrative end of things, Sandy Robinette, and she’s down in
Virginia.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh, very good.
Brian Hollstein:
So, we’re absolutely part of the Society and the FBI itself, though,
does not support this program. I’m going to be visiting with them
next week getting ready for set-up, but they don’t support us.
Charles E. Higdon:
Okay. But they will be clearing it for publication?
Brian Hollstein:
Absolutely. Yes they will.
Charles E. Higdon:
Okay. That gives me the parameters of it anyway.
Brian Hollstein:
Good. Let’s start off with a couple of easy questions here. What
year were you born?
Charles E. Higdon:
Born in 1916.
Brian Hollstein:
1916. And where were you born?
Charles E. Higdon:
In Fannin County, Georgia, at the community of Higdon. It was
actually Higdon Store, Georgia.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. Is that right?
Charles E. Higdon:
Yes. It was my great-grandfather who established the community.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh yeah.
Charles E. Higdon:
He was the Postmaster there.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
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Brian Hollstein:
And when did you start your FBI service?
Charles E. Higdon:
I started on September the 23rd 1940.
Brian Hollstein:
1940. And your ending date? When did you end your service with
the Bureau?
Charles E. Higdon:
I ended my service, I believe it was in February or March 1945.
The exact date I don’t recall. I destroyed my copy of my
resignation either for security purposes later in my career.
Brian Hollstein:
Very good. How did you happen to find out about the FBI?
Charles E. Higdon:
Well, I had heard about the FBI quite a lot when I was in college.
And I had known from some people locally that were involved
with the FBI. And, of course, the FBI was big news from all the
action that they had during the ‘30’s.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh sure. Sure.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh the Capone era, and the Dillinger era.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. That was a heady time, I’ll tell ya … lots of things going
on.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah.
Brian Hollstein:
Where did you go to college?
Charles E. Higdon:
The University of Tennessee.
Brian Hollstein:
Uh Huh. And what were you studying there?
Charles E. Higdon:
I took Business Administration and Law. I have degrees in each.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay. So you came in then as an attorney.
Charles E. Higdon:
I came in as an attorney.
Brian Hollstein:
Good. Where did you take your training?
Charles E. Higdon:
At Quantico.
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Charles E. Higdon
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Brian Hollstein:
Uh Huh. And?
Charles E. Higdon:
I came in there on the 23rd of September, 1940 and I was there for
about six weeks. Going nine to nine, six days a week, and one to
nine on Sundays.
Brian Hollstein:
They were pumping you through.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh, they were pumping us through pretty fast. That’s right.
Brian Hollstein:
What was your first office?
Charles E. Higdon:
My first office was Chicago.
Brian Hollstein:
And how long were you there?
Charles E. Higdon:
I was there about three months. I went there in November 1945.
Brian Hollstein:
And then, second office?
Charles E. Higdon:
Second office was St. Louis. And I was there only a short time.
About March 1941 I was transferred to Washington, DC as a
supervisor.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay. That was quick.
Charles E. Higdon:
I could never figure out how they selected the supervisors, but the
bunch of them that they brought in, all of them had two degrees.
That was the only thing I could figure that they had in common.
Brian Hollstein:
Well, that’s good. What desk were you on? What division I
mean?
Charles E. Higdon:
Well, I worked in Special Memos Unit first, and then later I was in
Custodial Detention Unit under the National Defense Section.
Brian Hollstein:
And what did that entail?
Charles E. Higdon:
Well, Custodial Detention involved the carding of enemy
Nationals, for pickup in the event of a national emergency.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh, I see. So you would identify these people?
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Charles E. Higdon
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Charles E. Higdon:
Identify these people and I think I had eight offices that I was the
supervisor for. We collected the information from the field offices
and prepared cards of the activities of the individuals. These were
checked on each month and then when we got sufficient
information to merit Custodial Detention, they were passed up to
the Attorney General and required his signature, to authenticate
them for pickup in the event of a national emergency.
Brian Hollstein:
Well, was this part of the program then that led to the Japanese
incarceration after Pearl Harbor?
Brian Hollstein:
That was all part of it later, that occurred much later though. But
during the time that I was in Custodial Detention, I happened to be
in Los Angeles, on a subpoena to testify on a case I had worked in
St. Louis. While I was there, they had the raid on Terminal Island
to arrest the Japanese down there.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. I see.
Charles E. Higdon:
We had about 200 Special Agents and 400 LAPD, and then the
Coast Guard came in at 4 o’clock in the morning and sealed off
Terminal Island. That’s where the Japanese fishing fleet was
located. We went in and searched every house on the Island and,
took in to custody every male who was 21 years of age or older.
We confiscated code books and the fishing logs, and that sort of
thing, and the radios and communications equipment. Because
there had been evidence that they were communicating with
submarines off shore. Japanese submarines.
The Coast Guard sealed them in that morning. We were there at 4
o’clock in the morning till 11 o’clock that night.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh boy. So they went in to camps then.
Charles E. Higdon:
Turned over to the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the
individuals were. But there was evidence of, at that particular
time, they were expecting a Japanese invasion on the West Coast.
And, as a matter of fact, a Japanese submarine surfaced and fired
on a fuel dump, just south of Los Angeles.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 7
And, I remember there were headlines in the paper then. “War and
all of its horror came to LA last night when” so and so, a bombing
that had been carried out on the fuel dump.
Brian Hollstein:
So that was the beginning. You don’t hear much about that side of
it.
Charles E. Higdon:
No. But there was a great fear that there was going to be an
invasion in Hawaii and the U.S.
Brian Hollstein:
And didn’t want to have that happen a second time. Certainly.
Charles E. Higdon:
I was on the desk at Washington in Custodial Detention when
Pearl Harbor occurred also. I remember that. On a Sunday; going
down on the Potomac, to George Washington’s home for the day.
I was on the way back when I tuned in on the car radio and heard
the broadcast. So I went in to a Hot Shoppe in Virginia and I
called the office. The operator said all the supervisors and Agents
report to the Bureau immediately.
So I just had the people I was riding with drop me off at the
Bureau and I stayed there. I immediately started sending out
teletypes that evening. And I was there from Sunday afternoon at
4 o’clock until Tuesday noon, without sleep, until other Agents
were assigned. Single Agents were 9 p.m. to 9 a.m. Married
Agents got the day shift, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m...
Brian Hollstein:
Oh boy.
Charles E. Higdon:
We had about six secretaries that were trying to establish name
cards to identify the individuals that had been picked and where
they were located.
Brian Hollstein:
So you had, at this point did you have a roster of Japanese?
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah. We had a roster of Japanese. Also we had Communists,
Italians, and of course, Germans. We had a roster of all of ‘em.
Every Monday morning, we had to have a collective memo,
covering all the field offices. That was combined and had to be on
the Director’s desk by 9 o’clock on Monday morning. He had an
appointment with the President for 10 o’clock in the morning, to
go over what was happening throughout the United States.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
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Brian Hollstein:
So these rosters that you had been putting together, then, were used
for the arrest of the Japanese.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh absolutely. After Pearl Harbor occurred the President gave his
famous speech about Pearl Harbor. He went to Congress to get a
declaration of war against the Axis powers. I remember going
outside to watch him come by in his limousine going to the Capitol
to request permission of Congress.
Brian Hollstein:
But the later general detention of Japanese?
Charles E. Higdon:
That occurred about a year or and a half later when they were
moved from the West Coast to Arizona. It was handled in a very
peculiar way, but it certainly had to do with suspicion that the
Japanese aliens and, many of the citizens, were not fully loyal to
the United States at that time. So that’s why they were moved, of
course.
Brian Hollstein:
The listings that you were maintaining though, were known
subversive types.
Charles E. Higdon:
Subversive types or sympathizers who were active in
organizations.
Brian Hollstein:
Or diplomats or spies?
Charles E. Higdon:
No. Individuals who were active in the subversive organizations.
You had the German Bund, the Italian Black Shirts, and the
Communist cells; various ones that were operating all over the
country. We were carding all of them.
Brian Hollstein:
Hell, the Germans were, were busy around in the New York area; I
know about that.
Charles E. Higdon:
Well, they were busy around the Chicago area too.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. Yeah, large, large German populations in both areas.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh, yes.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
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Charles E. Higdon:
They had a large German Bund organization in Chicago and we
were able to penetrate that one. We had a technical surveillance on
the German Consulate there. And, at that particular time, we had a
24-hour coverage of that.
Brian Hollstein:
Well, there was plenty of information, I’m sure, flowing at that
point.
Charles E. Higdon:
There was plenty of information. I recall trying to interview the
secretary of the Bund and he didn’t wish to cooperate with me. So,
some Chicago policemen brought him in on a technical charge of
some type to the police station. They helped me get an interview.
And, as a result of that I got a list of the Bund members that he was
keeping.
Brian Hollstein:
That worked very well then.
(Both laughing)
Charles E. Higdon:
I won’t go into the details though.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay.
Charles E. Higdon:
That was a police activity, which I did not witness.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah.
Charles E. Higdon:
So I can’t testify to that.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay. After the Terminal Island raid, you went back to DC then, I
gather?
Charles E. Higdon:
Went right back to DC. As soon as I testified. That must have
been in January or February of 1942 that I was there. The
Terminal Island raid would be a matter of record.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh sure. Well I have here on this little note on the SIS people that
you must have joined the SIS right around that time.
Charles E. Higdon:
I did. Just shortly thereafter.
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Charles E. Higdon
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Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. I think you show in May of ’42, you were down in La Paz.
How did you happen to find out about the SIS?
Charles E. Higdon:
Well, we had an exercise class. If you look in the February 1942
National Geographic, you’ll see a picture there. It’s about
Washington, DC, and it says “Special Agents of the FBI exercising
on top of the Department of Justice Building.” The photo was
made in the summer of 1941
Brian Hollstein:
I’ve got that picture.
Charles E. Higdon:
I’m looking at it right now myself.
Brian Hollstein:
We use it for training. Is that the one where everybody’s standing
with their arms straight out?
Brian Hollstein:
That’s right.
Brian Hollstein:
Yep.
Charles E. Higdon:
You’ll see me on about the fourth row on the right side, look about
the third or fourth man back there.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh sure.
Charles E. Higdon:
Looking at the picture, I am the third Agent back, other than the
instructor. You’ve got the instructor, then there are three, I’m the
third man back.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay.
Charles E. Higdon:
You see that now?
Brian Hollstein:
No. I don’t have it in front of me.
Charles E. Higdon:
Anyway. Joe Santoiana was one of the Supervisors who was
teaching the language class for the SIS.
Brian Hollstein:
He was my Supervisor in Tampa Division.
Charles E. Higdon:
He was? Well, you know Joe well then.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 11
Brian Hollstein:
Yep. Quite well.
Charles E. Higdon:
Joe taught the Spanish class. And so he told me about what was
happening and so I thought I might be interested in that. So I
applied; I knew some of those in the exercise group who worked
with SIS.
Brian Hollstein:
Were you married at the time?
Charles E. Higdon:
No. I was single. They only took single men. They didn’t take
any married men at that time. So, I volunteered to go to Latin
America. They started the language training which we took six
weeks.
Brian Hollstein:
Hmhmm. What other type of training did you receive?
Charles E. Higdon:
That was the only training. My first assignment was to La Paz,
Bolivia. And, I went there as a news man ... undercover.
Undercover for a news agency. I went to New York and talked
with some of the news people before I caught a boat to South
America
Brian Hollstein:
Oh, I see. So you took a boat going down then, huh?
Charles E. Higdon:
I took a boat going there. We had seven undercover Agents on
board. It was a Chilean vessel going from New York to Santiago,
Chile. I got off at Lima, Peru and from there to La Paz, Bolivia.
Chile was neutral at that stage. So they were going with full lights
on. And two weeks earlier, the German subs had sunk the sister
ship, we learned later.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh boy.
Charles E. Higdon:
Down near Panama and the people had to go ashore in lifeboats.
That’s how they were saved.
Brian Hollstein:
Something to think about, huh.
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Charles E. Higdon:
I don’t know if there were any lost or not. But, while we were
about two days out of, I had introduced myself to the captain. I
told him I was representing a news agency and that if he saw
anything, any submarines out there, to let me know. So I woke up
one morning and looked out the port hole and I saw a big snorkel
sticking out of the water.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh, for goodness sake!
Charles E. Higdon:
I went up to see the captain and asked him if he’d been contacted
by the submarine that was off on our bow. And he said, “No.” I
said, “Do you have any idea who, what country it represents?”
“No.” Everything was a no, no, as far as he was concerned. I said,
“Well, what can you tell me about it?” He said, “I can’t tell you
anything about it. I don’t know anything about it.” And he says,
“I haven’t been contacted and I haven’t received a message from
anybody.”
So the word that got passed around among the undercover Agents
on board. We had a little meeting on what to do in the event we’re
boarded. We finally agreed everybody worked their cover.
Which, if we had been boarded, we would have done.
Brian Hollstein:
Sure.
Charles E. Higdon:
But the following morning when I looked out the port hole, we
were pulling into Panama and here was an American aircraft
carrier. It was 7 o’clock in the morning. Flags all over, all over the
boat and sailors on the deck. The American flag has never looked
so good
Brian Hollstein:
I’ll bet.
Charles E. Higdon:
But that was on the way to Peru. I got off in Lima and flew to
Arequipa, Peru. Spent the night in Arequipa, and then took a train
over to Lake Titicaca and a boat to La Paz, Bolivia.
Brian Hollstein:
Well, it certainly was an exotic place at that time.
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Charles E. Higdon:
Oh, it was different. People coming in by plane had to take
oxygen. Back in the old days, you know, it was known as the
oxygen tube … on the old DC-3s. They had the oxygen comin’
into La Paz and when they collapsed on the pavement, they gave
them extra oxygen; ‘cause it’s about 11,500 feet at the airport.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. It’s high. I spent some time in La Paz..
Charles E. Higdon:
You spent time in La Paz?
Brian Hollstein:
Yes. And, in the hotel, they had oxygen bottles by the bed, you
know.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh. Where’d you stay? At the Sucre Palace?
Brian Hollstein:
That’s years ago now and I really don’t remember. It was
probably something like a Hilton, you know.
Charles E. Higdon:
The Sucre Palace was there and that’s about a thousand feet down
from the airport.
Brian Hollstein:
What, what were you doing in La Paz?
Charles E. Higdon:
Well, I was trying to identify members of the German community
that were active. And secondly, they had tin mines all over
Bolivia. I made a visit to several of the tin mines. They were
threatening to strike at the tin mines. And we wanted to see
whether or not there was the German influence in bringing about
this strike; which would keep us from getting tin. The Japanese
had cut off the supply from the Malay Peninsula
Brian Hollstein:
Sure.
Charles E. Higdon:
At that time, only one load of tin ore coming out of Arica, Chile,
was docking in Galveston. Texas … one out of three. But the
German’s got the rest of them with U-Boats just as soon as they
got through the Canal. The Germans had U-Boats all around the
Canal and they sunk over 400 ships, along the east coast of the
U.S.
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August 11, 2004
Page 14
Brian Hollstein:
No. No. You hear about things up in the East Coast, up around
New York and what have you, but the Caribbean was busy.
Charles E. Higdon:
Up and down the whole East Coast, I think there were over 400
ships that were eventually sunk.
Brian Hollstein:
That was very effective on their part.
Charles E. Higdon:
Anyway, in addition to doing a survey at the mines, we checked
the identity of people associated with the mines. We had a bunch
of American engineers working in the various mines; and also,
there were Germans. Some of these mines were German owned.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. I see.
Charles E. Higdon:
Also I went to Santa Cruz, Bolivia, to identify a large German
community over there.
Brian Hollstein:
Was there much espionage activity?
Charles E. Higdon:
I reported on Germans in Potosi, Bolivia, and also in Santa Cruz. I
got lists of people who were active in the German activities there.
While I was in Bolivia, we deported about 25 enemy aliens to the
United States for internment.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. So they were cooperating, at that point then. The police?
Charles E. Higdon:
The Bolivians. All the countries in Latin America, except for
Argentina and Chile, were cooperating, at that time. They had
broken relations with Germany and with the Axis powers. So they
were all cooperating. It was only, toward the end of the war, that
Chile and Argentina broke relations with German.
Brian Hollstein:
How did you get your reports to the Bureau?
Charles E. Higdon:
My reports to the Bureau were turned over to the Legat office in
the Embassy.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay. So, so that was the Legats then?
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 15
Charles E. Higdon:
The Legats forwarded the reports over to Washington through
diplomatic channels. News reports were sent via All American
Cable, the local telegraph office.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. Okay. So you didn’t have to go through any encryption?
Charles E. Higdon:
I had my code books and handled it that way a few times, but not
often. Most often the reports I made, and the names and lists, went
to the Legat.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh, I see. But every once in a while you’d transmit things in
encrypted.
Charles E. Higdon:
I used a little code there. Of course, I used the local telegraph
office to send in some of the reports when we had the deportation.
I remember the deportation of 25 of the German aliens who were
active in German affairs there. I sent that report, it was a news
item, to the headquarters in New York news agency I was working
for.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. I see. Yeah. So naturally you’d be filing the news too. Yeah.
Charles E. Higdon:
From the local cable office down there.
Brian Hollstein:
Did you run into any actual German spies or saboteurs?
Charles E. Higdon:
No. But, a lot of pro-German activity mostly. It was mostly proGerman activity, rather than spies. They were helping the German
cause wherever they could.
Brian Hollstein:
Was that pretty open?
Charles E. Higdon:
Pretty open? Oh yeah.
We had a big, big stream of Jewish refugees that had come to
Bolivia. The Bolivian Consulate General in Paris, France had sold
almost a million dollars worth of Visas to German Jewish refugees.
And they spoke the language and that helped out tremendously.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh sure.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 16
Charles E. Higdon:
We had a few of the refugees working as informants.
Brian Hollstein:
And the Germans didn’t try to do anything to the Jews then? Once
they were in the country?
Charles E. Higdon:
They took the place of the Indians, who were shopkeepers.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. I see. And then continued on that way.
Charles E. Higdon:
They were waiters at some restaurants. There was one professor at
the Sucre Palace Hotel, who spoke five languages.
Brian Hollstein:
That’s what happens though.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah. I was headed to Washington in the fall of 1942, after six
months in Bolivia. I was having lunch on the terrace of the Sucre
Palace and the waiter comes up and puts the National Geographic
picture in front of me and points down and says, “Is that you?”
Brian Hollstein:
Is that right!
Charles E. Higdon:
I said, “Nope. That’s not me. That’s my brother. You can see that
he’s much heavier than I am.” I’d lost 25 pounds of weight
because of the altitude at that time. “He’s much heavier.” So, I
turn right back to talking with the parties that I was dining with.
Brian Hollstein:
(laughing) wow.
Charles E. Higdon:
Anyway, he went off shaking his head.
Brian Hollstein:
Talk about blowing your cover, right.
Charles E. Higdon:
I left, as scheduled, about two days later. I was already scheduled
to leave, he wasn’t the reason I left.
Brian Hollstein:
That’s something. The National Geographic blew your cover,
huh?
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 17
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah. That blew my cover. That’s the first time I knew the
photograph existed. It hadn’t come out when I left, I never saw it.
So as soon as I got back to Washington, I got myself a copy.
Brian Hollstein:
Well it’s famous ‘cause we still use it. That is really funny.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah, it is.
Brian Hollstein:
From there then, it looks like you went from La Paz to
Montevideo?
Charles E. Higdon:
I came back to Washington.
Brian Hollstein:
You went to Washington, huh?
Charles E. Higdon:
I returned to Washington and was assigned to Montevideo.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. I see. Okay. What was Montevideo like in that time?
Charles E. Higdon:
Montevideo? I went there as Assistant Legal Attaché.
Montevideo, at that stage, had a bunch of Germans interned in
Montevideo. The ones that were on the German supply ship
Tacoma, during the Graf Spee incident
Brian Hollstein:
Right.
Charles E. Higdon:
They were not the Graf Spee ones. Uruguay had interned the
Germans who were on the Tacoma. It was the refueling ship for
the Graf Spee. The Graf Spee had been in a fight with British
cruisers off shore and came they into port at Montevideo. The
U.S. and Britain put pressure on the Uruguayans to order them out
of the port. On the way out, they scuttled the Graf Spee to block
the channel. That was in 1939, I think.
Brian Hollstein:
Right.
Charles E. Higdon:
The Germans didn’t block the channel when the Graf Spee was
scuttled. They went off course and they got in their lifeboats and
took off for Patagonia, in Argentina.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 18
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. I visited little monument there, overlooking the water where
the Graf Spee went down.
Charles E. Higdon:
Can you still see the funnel there?
Brian Hollstein:
I don’t recall seeing anything.
Charles E. Higdon:
The funnel stuck out of the water.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah, but that’s 50 years ago now. 60 years ago.
Charles E. Higdon:
I’m sure it must have moved it since then.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. Probably.
Charles E. Higdon:
The crew of the Tacoma was in port for two weeks, before I even
got to Montevideo. They went in port for 2 weeks after the Graf
Spee took off for Argentina in their lifeboats. Uruguay interned
the ones that were on the supply ship … the Tacoma. During two
weeks in port, the crew sabotaged the Tacoma by driving
phonograph needles through the wiring throughout the ship.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh.
Charles E. Higdon:
The U.S. bought the Tacoma for one dollar from the Uruguayans
in 1968. A crew was sent down from the Philadelphia Naval Yard
to restore the Tacoma. They were there for a year. I spent a
couple of weeks on the Tacoma when we first took it over. I
found a log book in the side of the ship and sent it to Washington
for analysis. The ship never got back into operation at all. It was,
at the end of the war, taken back to Philadelphia but it never got
back in service.
Brian Hollstein:
It was well sabotaged then.
Charles E. Higdon:
They painted over the wires. You couldn’t tell where the wires
were. But they did have two weeks; they drove phonograph
needles through all the wiring and then they painted over it and,
and it was completely sabotaged when the U.S. took possession of
it.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 19
Brian Hollstein:
Oh boy. Did were the Germans active there also, with espionage?
Charles E. Higdon:
They were active at the local level. They had several German
firms represented there. And we followed one of several Germans
that we thought were agents; they were young guys like ourselves.
And we said, “Why aren’t you in the German Army?” They asked
the same question of us.
Two U.S. firms, Swift and Armour, had meat packing plants, and
they were supplying the British population and the troops with
beef. So we had an Agent assigned to check out the personnel of
these companies, to make sure that we weren’t being penetrated by
the Germans. We monitored a great deal of traffic, but we never
discovered a German radio there, but they had radios operating in
Brazil.
Brian Hollstein:
Right.
Charles E. Higdon:
Yep. But we didn’t discover a clandestine radio of the Germans.
But they did have a local German organization. When the
Uruguayan had broken relations they still had German firms there,
and German personnel. Locally, they had meetings from time to
time and we identified a lot of the Germans. As far as I know,
there were no any deportations made from Uruguay to the U.S.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. That’s another busy place.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah.
Brian Hollstein:
And you were there from, it says here, from about December of
’42 to July of ’44.
Charles E. Higdon:
That’s correct.
Brian Hollstein:
So you had a good amount of time with them.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah. I was there when Chile broke relations with the Japanese
and Germans. The diplomats came to Montevideo via the night
boat to Buenos Aires. I was able to search some of their gear to
see if there was anything we could find. But there wasn’t
anything.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 20
Charles E. Higdon:
They were coming over to catch the repatriation ship, the Swedish
ship, the Gripsholm. And that was in Montevideo Harbor in 1944,
I think.
Brian Hollstein:
So the Japanese?
Charles E. Higdon:
After Chile broke relations with the Japanese and the Germans, the
diplomats all were deported. Yep.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay. And they came over to your harbor then to leave.
Charles E. Higdon:
Montevideo. I went over to Buenos Aires. I accompanied them
back on the boat, and searched their baggage on the way over.
That was with the help of crew members.
Brian Hollstein:
But nothing interesting came out of that?
Charles E. Higdon:
Nothing came out of that. They were mostly interested in carrying
back radios and electrical appliances and that sort of thing
Brian Hollstein:
The usual stuff? Especially going back in a wartime country.
Lots of that stuff wouldn’t be available anymore.
Charles E. Higdon:
That’s right.
Brian Hollstein:
Any other highlights from your Montevideo days?
Charles E. Higdon:
One of the big highlights was … we had a report while I was there
…If you remember the case of the saboteurs in Washington?…
Brian Hollstein:
Alright.
Charles E. Higdon:
In New York, I mean, off Long Island?
Anyway, we had a report that the Germans were landing at Punta
del Este, Uruguay to sabotage the meat packing plants in
Montevideo. This information came from the local police with
whom we had a liaison relationship. So about three or four of
Agents went to Punta del Este. We spent two days with the
Uruguayan police lying on the beaches at night, looking for the
German subs to land the saboteurs.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 21
Brian Hollstein:
Didn’t find anything?
Charles E. Higdon:
It turned out to be a false report. But it was a tough time … lying
in the sand out there with nothing but a 38 special and sand beatin’
in your eyes two nights in a row.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. Well, I spent some time in Punta del Este. It’s tough duty
over there. I’ll tell ya. (laughing)
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah. It’s tough duty, but I wouldn’t miss it. I rode horseback
up and down the Punta del Este beaches many times.
Brian Hollstein:
Was it pretty elegant when you were there?
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yes. Well, that was the place the Argentines came over for
vacation and to gamble.
Brian Hollstein:
Right. Yeah.
Charles E. Higdon:
The Argentines also came to Carrasco in Montevideo. The big
crowds came from Argentina. They came over there to gamble. .
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah, a lot of money also flowed through the banking system.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah.
Brian Hollstein:
And in Montevideo, they were big time bankers. I guess the
Argentines wanted to get their money out of the country to some
place stable, and this was just across the water.
Charles E. Higdon:
I was in Montevideo when two things happened. First, we had FBI
Agents who were supposed to be picked up in Argentina, but got
word so they came over on the night boat and we kept them. We
kept them for about a week in Montevideo till things cleared up in
Buenos Aires. And they were able to go back to Argentina, after
that. There were about four or five undercover Agents, that were
there scheduled to be picked up. They were later transferred.
Brian Hollstein:
And, so they were able to go back though?
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 22
Charles E. Higdon:
They were able to go back. Yeah. Their covers were blown but
they were able to go back. After the Embassy in Buenos Aires
cleared things up with the Argentine officials.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. ‘Cause I have a bunch of people here whose listing in
Buenos Aires was for very short periods of time.
Charles E. Higdon:
The undercover people that were in Buenos Aires, they pulled
some of them out. And, of course, you still had the Legat Office in
the Embassy’s still there.
Brian Hollstein:
But all the undercover guys had to go?
Charles E. Higdon:
The undercover guys were the ones that who didn’t want to leave.
Brian Hollstein:
Did they tell you why they had to leave? I mean, you know, what
the reason was that they were compromised?
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh no. They were scheduled to be picked up by the Argentine
police. And, we had information that they had identified some of
these fellas and were going to pick them up. So we had somebody
from the police department notify the Legat Office.
Brian Hollstein:
I see.
Charles E. Higdon:
That these fellas were scheduled to be picked up. And so that’s
why they were suddenly rushed out of the country.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh yeah. Sure.
Charles E. Higdon:
Till they got things squared away. I don’t know exactly what
happened but they were able to go back. But then they moved
them out of the country. I don’t know what kind of diplomatic
representation was made, or how it was handled.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. So now, it looks like many of them got replaced elsewhere.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah.
Brian Hollstein:
And, so they didn’t lose them completely from the service.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 23
Charles E. Higdon:
This is true. I was in Montevideo when the [Argentine]
government was overthrown and Castillo became the President.
Peron became the Minister of Defense. He then moved on up and
took over for Castillo, who was the President. At least ten
members of the Argentine cabinet from the previous administration
came over to Montevideo. I was able to interview a couple or
three of them … as to what happened. But they stayed about a
week in Montevideo and then when things quieted down and the
new regime of Peron and Castillo took over they were able to go
back then to Argentina.
They went back to Argentina , after the new government took over.
Brian Hollstein:
How many SIS people were there in Montevideo?
Charles E. Higdon:
We had three in the Legat Office, plus a stenographer, and a radio
operator.
Brian Hollstein:
Do you remember any of their names?
Charles E. Higdon:
Let’s see, a couple of them. Kermit Midthurn. He was the
stenographer. I can’t remember the radio operator. Then we had
another guy that worked with him, who doubled as a stenographer.
Brian Hollstein:
It wasn’t Horan, was it?
Charles E. Higdon:
No. No, no, it was not.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay.
Charles E. Higdon:
I remember we had about, I’d say, four undercover people. One at
the packing plants.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay. Any other things we should know?
Charles E. Higdon:
That just about covers the highlights.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 24
Charles E. Higdon:
We had several trips up to the Brazilian border to check out the
German population up there. Several Germans lived in Sao Paolo
in Brazil. They were active in the northern part of Uruguay.
Nothing outstanding as far as espionage or interfering with
shipping. One of the things that we worried about was the ships
carrying beef, going up the east coast before they connected to a
convoy.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. That would be a problem, I suppose.
Charles E. Higdon:
But the Germans subs never got down to Uruguay. They mostly
were near Panama. When Admiral English was stationed in
Panama, he started bombing surfaced subs. So he was able to clear
out the Caribbean a little bit. But they never got down to
Montevideo. Ships came up the coast and then linked up with a
convoy. Then they had to worry about submarines.
Brian Hollstein:
I see. Okay.
Charles E. Higdon:
We never found any German radio stations. We identified some
other clandestine radio stations; the Poles, for example, and the
Russians. We identified their clandestine radio stations. We sent
in copies of traffic, but, nothing substantial.
Brian Hollstein:
Did you ever get involved in the trade in platinum?
Charles E. Higdon:
Yes. Oh, very much so. When I became Legal Attaché in 1944, I
was in Quito. And, at that particular time, there was heavy
trafficking of platinum being smuggled out of Columbia, down
through Ecuador and from there to Argentina.
Spain was cooperating with
Germany at that stage, and the German Embassy in Buenos Aires
was closed.
This was platinum that was smuggled out of
Ecuador. Our Agents penetrated their
organization of smugglers in Columbia.
we cut their shipments of platinum which came overland into
Ecuador and, then went out by couriers, taking planes from
Guayaquil, Ecuador, to Buenos Aires.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 25
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. I see. Now, had you worked with Wally Estill, then, at that
time?
Charles E. Higdon:
Wally came to Montevideo, as an undercover agent when I was
there. I introduced Wally to an informant when he first got there.
But I left shortly after he arrived.
Brian Hollstein:
Right.
Charles E. Higdon:
But anyway, we were able to seize several large shipments of
platinum being smuggled out as I described. I don’t recall exactly
how much.
We turned that over to the Embassy and it was shipped to
Washington via diplomatic pouch. And, it looked like it was
coming from the Ecuadorian government. I’d say that was the
biggest contribution we made there -- seizing this platinum. That
was keeping it from getting down to Argentina, and ending up in
the V-1’s and V-2’s when Germany was bombing England
Brian Hollstein:
How successful do you think you were in terms of the total amount
of platinum that got to the Germans?
Charles E. Higdon:
There was a lot of platinum that was smuggled out. I have no idea
how successful we were. All I know is that we seized several
shipments of platinum.
And it was usually in suitcases with cylinders located in the four
corners of the suitcases. Little bags that were about three to four
inches long and about an inch in diameter. They were cloth bags.
That’s the way they were smuggling it.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. I see. And what form was the platinum in? Was it a little
ingots?
Charles E. Higdon:
It was powder. All powder. Grey colored powder.
Brian Hollstein:
So that would be pure platinum?
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 26
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah. We waited till they got ready to take it out of the country
and that’s when we seized it. The couriers got ready to catch the
planes. The ones we missed coming overland, we caught up with
at Guayaquil, Ecuador through name checks and other identities by
nationality. Some women were used as couriers also. And we had
a Jewish refugee woman, that helped us do searches of women.
Brian Hollstein:
So she would be able to handle that side of it. Wally was
mentioning some of the platinum also was stored in like Mason
jars? At one point?
Charles E. Higdon:
There might have been during his time, which was later.
Brian Hollstein:
You were at Quito, right?
Charles E. Higdon:
Yes, I was the Legat at that time. Wally came along later after I’d
left Quito.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. I see.
Charles E. Higdon:
I never knew till I came back home to Knoxville after retirement
that Wally had actually been in Quito. He was SAC in Knoxville.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. I see.
Charles E. Higdon:
I didn’t find that out till years later.
Brian Hollstein:
Actually he was south of Guayaquil there back in the mountains
somewhere. With a mining operation. And, had set up an
interdiction so, for the overland people, you know, that were
coming out of Columbia.
Charles E. Higdon:
Various routes were used overland. But they ended up in
Guayaquil to catch the planes. That’s where we caught ‘em. And
because of their identity and their name checks that we had, and
informant information, we were able to intercede and seize a lot of
platinum.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh yeah.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 27
Charles E. Higdon:
Brian Hollstein:
Charles E. Higdon:
the government deported about a dozen enemy aliens -- one
Japanese and the rest were Germans or German sympathizers -they were very cooperative in deporting those. But we had
information on the inside what was going on in their local German
Bund.
Brian Hollstein:
Were there a lot of Germans there?
Charles E. Higdon:
There were not many … not like Argentina, or Chile. These were
the ones that were enemy aliens or Ecuadorians from German
families.
Brian Hollstein:
Well I was visiting in Quito a few years ago and, well, that’s a
while ago now, but I was surprised. I saw the Changing of the
Guard at the Presidential Palace and these guys came out with
World War II German helmets on and field gray uniforms, you
know, and goose stepping. And, guess the big brewers there in
Ecuador, are German also.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah. All the brewers were German.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. That was a little bit of a surprise.
Charles E. Higdon:
Yeah. We had informants inside of the local organization … that
we were able to penetrate. There were a lot of cases that were
open, when I first got there and I closed so many cases for ‘em that
the Bureau said, “well you better get out and round up some new
ones.” (Laughing)
Brian Hollstein:
You’re going to put yourself out of business.
27
Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 28
Charles E. Higdon:
Put myself out of business there. We didn’t have any reason to
keep these cases open. When I was there we had about five
people in the Legat Office. And we had a couple in Guayaquil.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay.
Charles E. Higdon:
Two in Guayaquil and five in Quito. Yeah. That were Special
Agents.
Brian Hollstein:
Okay. And, you probably had an undercover or two also then?
Charles E. Higdon:
Well, not in Quito. Down in Guayaquil. Yeah. Wally probably
came undercover from Montevideo. He was undercover there.
Brian Hollstein:
He was and had a few stories to tell about that. Anything, any
other elements in Ecuador that we should know about?
Charles E. Higdon:
Well, those are the major, major activities.
I want to mention that General Trujillo visited. Just after he took
over in Cuba, he came down on a grand tour. We took him out one
night with the head of the National Police to a local club there.
One of the deputies got a little jealous of Trujillo and pulled his
gun. One of our Agents was fortunate enough to grab the gun
before he was able to use it. It was a little touch and go there.
Brian Hollstein:
We would have lost another dictator.
Charles E. Higdon:
Another dictator would have been lost. Yeah. He was making the
grand tour around Latin America at that stage. I think that would
have been important, in history, if that had happened. Yep. But we
quickly ushered him out.
Brian Hollstein:
I’ll bet.
Charles E. Higdon:
We quickly ushered him out and got him on his way.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. Get him out of town on that one.
28
Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 29
Charles E. Higdon:
I think we had a busy office there. And good, good local
informants.
Brian Hollstein:
So you, essentially, you had inherited, when you came up there,
everything was in operation by that point.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah. Absolutely.
Brian Hollstein:
So it was a running office?
Charles E. Higdon:
It was already a good running office.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. You didn’t have to open, start anything up.
Charles E. Higdon:
No. Not at all. It was a good running office at that time. And it
was a good running office when I left there.
Then, I came up to Washington in January of 1945, for in-service
training. I had an interview with the Director shortly after arrival,
and we had a good visit.
And, while I was there, I was recruited by OSS.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh.
Charles E. Higdon:
Other Agents that I had known in Washington as supervisors, or as
Agents in Latin America, had gone over to OSS. They said, “Well,
won’t you join up with OSS.” So, someone at OSS interviewed
me, said they’d like to have me join. So I put in my resignation to
the Bureau and joined them. I felt we had cleaned up the German
activity in Ecuador, and only the platinum shipments remained.
These involved local criminal smugglers and not members of the
German community.
Brian Hollstein:
Now did you go in as a military person?
Charles E. Higdon:
No. Counterintelligence with diplomatic missions. OSS had
college professors with linguistics ability who had served abroad.
Also several former businessmen who had worked in Germany and
Italy, and other places and they were not military at all.
29
Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 30
Brian Hollstein:
At this point though, the Bureau hadn’t given up its control over
intelligence operations in Latin America?
Charles E. Higdon:
In Latin America, it still had the exclusive control over all
intelligence except military intelligence.
Brian Hollstein:
Right.
Charles E. Higdon:
And, that was under a, what is called a preclusive agreement, like
the way it was with the Army, Navy, Navy and Air Force.
Brian Hollstein:
Right. It was the delimitations … later on I think they called it the
Delimitations Agreement, back in the early ‘50s.
Charles E. Higdon:
Delimitations Agreement. That’s right. Yeah.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. ‘Cause I worked under that myself. I was in Army
Intelligence.
Charles E. Higdon:
Otherwise, we had responsibilities for all intelligence in Latin
America. Other than that.
Brian Hollstein:
So how did the OSS work around that, then? They just accepted
the Bureau’s reports? For Latin America?
Charles E. Higdon:
I don’t know just what the relationship was. Apparently the
relationship was not too close because the OSS was trying to
recruit FBI Agents.
Brian Hollstein:
Right. I’m sure Hoover didn’t like that.
Charles E. Higdon:
No, he didn’t like that at all. I learned there was not a close
relationship at the Washington level between OSS and the FBI.
OSS was offering an Army appointment if you wanted; we could
have gone in as Captains. Even before I went to Latin America,
when the OSS first got started, they were offering a Captaincy
rating to anybody that wanted to come over from the FBI.
Brian Hollstein:
Well, you know, a lot of people, during the war, decided that they
wanted to get some military time.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 31
Charles E. Higdon:
I remember …
Brian Hollstein:
… and left the Bureau.
Charles E. Higdon:
One Agent I knew got caught on a plant in New York and spent
two weeks in Washington in the waiting room treatment. He
became, later, Attorney General in California … ran for public
office and for governor. I think he was in Washington a couple of
weeks before he opted to take that Captaincy and he ended up as a
General, a Brigadier General.
Brian Hollstein:
He did alright on that one.
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah. He became Attorney General in California later on after
the war.
Brian Hollstein:
How, how long were you with the OSS?
Charles E. Higdon:
It was about three years.
Brian Hollstein:
So, right till the end of the war, then?
Charles E. Higdon:
Brian Hollstein:
Charles E. Higdon:
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 32
Brian Hollstein:
And, now the OSS evolved into the CIA. Were you around for
that part of it?
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh absolutely. Through the stages of the Strategic Services Unit
(SSU) and Central Intelligence Group (CIG) to the CIA.
Brian Hollstein:
Did you continue your career, then?
Charles E. Higdon:
The Director
General of Foreign Service
asked me if I’d like to become a
Foreign Service Officer. And so he encouraged me to apply.
I applied; took exams and was accepted in late 1947 and became a
Foreign Service Officer in early 1948.
Brian Hollstein:
Oh. Okay. That was one of my things that I wanted to do too.
Charles E. Higdon:
That was very interesting indeed. The exams are pretty tough, I’ll
tell ya.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. I took the exam and didn’t hear anything, didn’t hear
anything; and went in the Army ‘cause, you know, there was
danger of draft and I didn’t want to be drafted. So I went in the
Army and I got down to Ft. Dix and they cut all my hair off, took
all my clothes away, and what have you. And that night, the first
night I was in the Army, my father called and said that “I just got
word from the State Department that you’ve passed the
examination and they want you to come to Washington for an
interview.” And I said, “I don’t think the Sergeant’s going to let
me.”
(Both laughing)
Brian Hollstein:
That was the end of my diplomatic career.
Charles E. Higdon:
When I resigned from the Bureau and sent in my letter of
resignation, the FBI telegraphed my Draft Board in Knoxville.
Brian Hollstein:
Is that right?
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 33
Charles E. Higdon:
Oh yeah.
I got the notice from the Draft Board at the Raleigh Hotel in
Washington. I went over and picked it up my mail, and they said,
“There’s one that’ll be leaving.” Rooms were scarce at the time.
(Both laughing)
The draft notice came in, I turned it over to OSS and they got my
deferment.
Brian Hollstein:
Yeah. They took care of it. So did you stay on then, to complete
your career with the State Department?
Charles E. Higdon:
Yes, I stayed on to complete my career with the Foreign Service.
.
Brian Hollstein:
Charles E. Higdon:
Brian Hollstein:
Charles E. Higdon:
Brian Hollstein:
You’ve had quite a career. Now you’re back in Knoxville.
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Charles E. Higdon
August 11, 2004
Page 34
Charles E. Higdon:
I practiced law for 14 years in Knoxville after I retired from the
Foreign Service, though I did legal work in Rome as Deputy Legal
Advisor of the Embassy.
Brian Hollstein:
You finally got a chance to practice some law.
Charles E. Higdon:
And I retired from that about 20 years ago.
Brian Hollstein:
Great. Well, what a career! Thank you very much for sharing all
of this with me.
Charles E. Higdon:
It was interesting, a very interesting indeed.
34