John Jeffries (1948-2012)
on SIdeline
After John’s unexpected death on 30 November 2012, a number of indexers suggested his
uniquely-styled contributions to the SIdeline discussion list would be worth collecting and
preserving. The searchable archive only covers postings to the end of 2008 but Ann
Kingdom, who saves every posting, volunteered to extract and forward all John’s more recent
messages. This is the result: over 750 items, reflecting two periods of engagement during the
last ten years of John’s life. There are around 150 from June 2002 to May 2003; one
forwarded message from 2004 and about 600 from January 2006 to November 2012.
Email is often dismissed as an ephemeral medium yet, between articulate and suitably
motivated correspondents, it can simply be good letter-writing without the postal delays.
Certainly it is a medium that might have been expressly designed for John, who was
wonderfully prolific, his professional output representing only a small fraction of the whole.
Nevertheless, for us it is the easily accessible fraction and incidentally it offers an intriguing
commentary on a beleaguered profession, famously reluctant to assert itself (compare for
example the first posting of 9 March 2009 with that for 24 July 2012). But the real reasons it
deserves preservation more than any other SI member’s are John’s piercing clarity of thought,
his extraordinary courage (in confronting both distressing ill health and bullying or meanness
from clients) and above all his inimitable writing style, though only those of us who met him
can picture the twinkle in his eye as he deployed recondite polysyllables like ‘caliginous’ or
‘orotundity’. His off-list postings could be slightly racier than those of, say, 19 June 2010 and
27 February 2008.
The collection shows John’s love of English literature, of classic British comedy and of life
generally; his generously shared expertise on matters legal and military – especially naval
history – and his political constancy (left-leaning but informed by a fierce patriotism, a
combination that reminds me irresistibly of George Orwell). Not all was constancy, as the
chronological arrangement reveals. His religious convictions changed sometime after 26
January 2006. Also, experience confers confidence, and his postings requesting advice slowly
gave way to others providing it, though always with similar diffidence.
Never being intended for posterity, some posts were hurried while some phrases and
anecdotes recur (reflecting the notorious circularity of SIdeline discussion). I have retained
stylistic heterodoxies, like a preference for ‘what ever’ and ‘may be’ as two words and, for
the early material (up to the end of 2008), if John didn’t quote the message to which he was
responding, I have identified a candidate and supplied a little more context as a grey-type
addition between square brackets.
Now to confess my real heresy: there is no index although, like all PDFs, it’s searchable for
text strings. Of course, I wanted to avoid further delay, but this is above all a collection to be
browsed, preferably sitting up in bed with a glass of something that might enhance the
pleasure, the subject content being relatively unimportant.
Is the collection complete? Possibly not. It was assembled by searching the archived PDFs
for the name ‘Jeffries’ and, as John observed (9 October and 5 November 2010 and 8 October
2012) such searches can be a chancy business. Intriguingly, the very first hit was Maureen
MacGlashan’s response to remarks of John’s that I couldn’t find: perhaps they were sent offlist? Nevertheless, there’s a wealth of material to enjoy, and, for indexers, much to ponder.
I’ve resisted giving this collection the hackneyed title of ‘the wit and wisdom…’ but of
course that’s exactly what it offers. Also perhaps a glimpse of a better world that might have
been?
Bill Johncocks
June 2013
2
Year
Pages
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012
4-60
61-83
84
-85-123
124-164
165-217
218-252
253-282
283-305
306-322
3
2002
From: John Jeffries <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
[the above details subsequently omitted -BJ]
Subject: [sideline] Re Sideline: Reports and Statistics
Date: 16/06/2002 20:06:57
This is a very interesting point which makes me think immediately of a book
I have not long done on manufacturing. The author posed a rhetorical
question as to whether there was a lot to be gained by closing down a
British enterprise with highly trained personnel because a yet to be built
factory with a yet to be trained workforce in China might do it more
cheaply. In so far as I can claim to understand the issues, the point about
trade liberalisation is that things are done where they can be done most
efficiently. It might be cheap but it is not necessarily efficient if it is
poor value for money [the "you get what you pay for" argument as distinct
from the labour theory of value]. There are still plenty of third world
businesses, moreover, with negative economic value: what they produce costs
more than it can be sold for. We shall remain efficient so long as we
provide value for money. In other words, I suggest that we compete on the
basis of quality of service and, equally, I am not sure that is an original
idea. Should it be that we could have temporarily overlooked it, however,
it might be worth a moment's re-consideration.
John Jeffries
----- Original Message ----From: Maureen MacGlashan <[email protected]>
To: Sideline <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 7:00 PM
Subject: [sideline] Re Sideline: Reports and Statistics
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Most printing now seems to be done in India or elsewhere in Asia... there
are all signs that copy-editing is going the same way, with indexing next
on the list... If we can't or won't do it, or can't or won't do it as
cheaply as the alternative, there will be queues of Indians willing to do
it instead.
Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I fear it may be just a matter of time
like so many other 'decline and fall' stories.
Subject: [sideline] Re: Author indexes
Date: 18/06/2002 12:04:01
Auriol writes:
"I have to say that in a book which obviously uses author references
extensively, I am not a fan of `selective' bibliographies."
I am bound to say that I respectfully agree with her. May be my former
years in academic librarianship lie heavily upon my shoulders but some
bibliographic citations leave me tearing what little hair I have left and
some bibliographies carry all the hallmarks of having been thrown together,
unchecked, at the last minute. Sometimes it is sheer guess-work deciding
which variant spelling of an author's name is correct. The heap of misery I
have in front of me at the moment refers to the work of an S Friedman and a
WG Friedmann (if I believe the bibliography). The text, however, only
mentions Friedmann unadorned with the double "n" which ever of the pair it
is.
4
Some author errors brighten one's day. My most recent joy was a former
politician who let himself go a bit with the imagery of a land where "sheep
may safely graze" which he attributed to Handel's Messiah instead of a
cantata by JS Bach. All we like sheep have gone astray but unqualified
sloppiness is quite infuriating. When I raise such things the usual
reaction is that the author has checked the proofs so what it says must be
right. An improvement in standards is clearly called for but what we do
about it leaves me guessing.
John Jeffries
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Sideline: Tax Form - Use of Home
calculations
Date: 18/06/2002 12:52:18
Kay Ollerenshaw writes:
> I don't use an accountant as my accounts are quite basic, but was
Interested in last November's discussion on Use of House expenses for tax
purposes.
The concensus seemed to be that one could enter around £520 for use of
House expenses (heat, light etc).
My apologies if I am merely raising points which have been aired already. I
did a course on running one's own business in 1995 and the accountant
giving it said that, at that time, £250 was "reasonable." I took that to be
some sort of recognition that if you did not work from home you would have
to work from somewhere and would most likely have to pay for it. For
example, the place has to be cleaned, there is wear and tear which would
not have arisen were we in possession of an honest living, etc, etc. Some
people even claim "canteen expenses". Clearly it is altogether more
straightforward if there is a room furnished as and used solely as an
office - that way it is an office 24 hrs a day and the number of hours
spent indexing does not enter the calculation. The note to box 3.52 in the
Tax Return Guide is unclear as to whether the categories of expenses
illustrated are as well as or instead of an allowance for "use of home". It
does mention business rates but I am absolutely convinced that I have read
in an IR publication that Council Tax is disallowed. If I am right, it
would not be the first time that the Revenue has given contradictory
advice. It's tempting to suggest that we all ring up our local tax offices
and compare the various answers.
John Jeffries
Subject: [sideline] Re: Sideline: tax forms
Date: 18/06/2002 17:52:58
Well guys, this does seem to be a pretty kettle of fish. The reality I
think is that one can get away with what is "reasonable". The indigent
indexer is not the reason for the existence of the Inland Revenue Special
Investigation Branch (who make MI5 look like a bunch of playground
supervisors). I may be able to get a legal opinion on this and if I can
I'll post it. Just to wind you all up a little more... If your premises are
liable to business rates then the character of your occupation may offend
against the Use Classes Order as it is no longer strictly residential.
Planning permission for being an indexer? Please. That's just silly.
J
[Background:
From: Tony Hirst <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Tax Form - Use of Home calculations
Date: 18/06/2002 14:21:50
5
I have recently discussed this subject with someone who owns a small
bookshop. His chartered accountants have always inserted the figure of
£285 into his annual accounts for the use of his home as an office ... As
the firm of accountants is long-established, it follows that
the Inland Revenue have so far been happy with that sort of figure.]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Tax
Date: 19/06/2002 15:15:52
Hello again.
It would appear that Inspectors of Taxes are very alert to claims for use
of home as office from employed people and the encyclopedia I have in front
of me emphasises the "wholly and exclusively" test (ICTA 1988 s. 198) which I think is the problem with the office having a cumfy chair. It's
either wholly and exclusively for work or it's not and you cannot have it
both ways. This brings us back to the issue of it being an office all of
the time or only when it is used as such. If it is an office when it is
used as such no problem with income tax but business rates would still rear
its ugly head. Equally, it is scarcely reasonable for parts of the same
residential premises to be liable for either business rates or Council tax
according to the time of day.
The same work refers to TCGA 1992 s. 224(1) but unfortunately does not give
me the text. This appears to refer to a capital gains tax exemption in
respect of a principal private residence where part of the dwelling is used
"exclusively for the purpose of a trade or business, or of a profession or
vocation." The point of the paragraph is that a chargeable gain may arise
where an allowance against income tax has been claimed for domestic costs
in the case of employed people. By parity of reasoning, this does suggest
to me that your cumfy chair could trigger CGT liability in the case of we
self-employed people if the office use is no longer as specified in s.
224(1). Any chargeable gain, of course, might be within the annual
exemption, rolled over or eligible for retirement relief.
John Jeffries
Subject: [sideline] Re: Tax and Inland Revenue etc.
Date: 19/06/2002 15:35:20
Valerie has provided us with a rare insight into the workings of the
administrative mind. My daughter found herself assessed to tax on her
earnings from a teaching agency she had never heard of and from whom she
had never received a penny. The answer was that her mother - who now lives
abroad - had worked for them in the past. They had tied up a surname, a
company and a private address. So folks, what ever you do ... don't call it
teaching!
J
PS In this instance they did have the grace to apologise. They do
sometimes.
[Background:
From: Valerie Elliston <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Tax and Inland Revenue etc.
Date: 19/06/2002 14:55:02
I also thought it might be a good idea to tell our little SIdeline world of
my experience when being investigated by the Inland Revenue a couple
of years ago - a *full* investigation, folks, not just a brief glance!]
6
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Tax claims/Phone lines
Date: 20/06/2002 15:41:36
I think that it has already got to the stage where many commercial users
just assume that everyone else does have a "broadband" connection. The
chief danger is making the further assumption that this is virtually
instant communication. I began to think that my partner did not love me any
more when an email message was 24 hours in the transmission. Delays of a
couple of hours are not uncommon and it is entirely unpredictable.
I've had two lines for about five years now (voice only and
fax/electronic). It may cost a bit more but I think that it is worth it in
the long run. Come to think of it, the second line for electronic has been
a good deal more use than the fax machine. I'm reliably informed that IR
regard 50% of the charges as a reasonable allowance and you can negotiate a
higher proportion if it is justifiable (same as for car use in other
words).
I have forgotten who told me this or even whether it is true - but at any
rate it cannot do any harm - if you create an email directory entry for a
name AAA.AAA with no other details (that is no actual address) it is a
partial defence against a virus attack which copies your address book.
Somebody out there must know more of this than me. I'd like to know the
answer.
J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Re: was Re: Tax claims, now Demon
Date: 22/06/2002 21:01:35
Publishing deadlines seem to do nothing but get tighter and how genuine
this pressure is remains more than I can say. All the same, we are given a
date on which to deliver the goods and deliver we must. In this respect, of
course, we are not alone.
I am now so dependent upon being able to deliver by email that the prospect
of being unable to gives me attacks of the horrors. Yet again, I am sure
that I am not alone. Trouble is that we don't know what is going to happen.
If the service providers were willing to come clean, at least we should
know where we stood. I had quite a lengthy conversation with some guy at
Freeserve one time before I gathered that the reason nothing was working
was because it wasn't and my best bet was to try again a few hours later.
The strangest thing of all is that we pay good money for this.
Best,
J
Subject: [sideline] e-mail reliability
Date: 23/06/2002 15:40:28
Valerie Elliston writes:
> Apart from problems concerning the actual functioning of one's
> e-mail, can we be absolutely certain that an index arrives in
> precisely the same state/format as it was when we pressed the
> magic button? Has anyone had bad experiences of such a problem?
Having a strangely selective memory, I remembered this one from the Macrex
List and I hope that I am not infringing copyright by repeating it. Those
of you who understand these things will know whether the advice still holds
good. So far as I can see, the worst thing is that one seldom if ever
7
discovers whether it went through in one piece or not - save as below where
it wouldn't go through at all.
J
Subject: [sideline] Re: [sideline]email/post
Date: 24/06/2002 13:20:11
Zeb Korycinska writes:
"Ok, so I'm not single-handedly going to make much difference to the
economic viability of the sub post office, but if each of us was to try to
use the post office system as much as possible, then the cumulative effect
would be noticeable.
None of us lives in a vacuum."
To which I say "amen" and remain glad to go up the village, any time
myself, just in order to be out of the house. Unhappily I am also reminded
of the reported words of a Naval PO [petty officer]: "When the alarm rings,
yer get fell in 'ere hat the double - has fast has 'ell will let yer hand, them what is keen gets fell in sooner." I have a little job that
comes in monthly with very tight deadlines for all concerned. The minimum
turnaround time so far (receipt/deliver by email) has been four hours. Same
by post with a weekend intervening - four days. In the old days it would
have had to have done and no doubt did. These days: no good to man nor
beast.
Best,
John
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Email v. snailmail communication
Date: 25/06/2002 15:05:31
Hello folks,
I did once have the embarrassment of posting some work Special D on a
Saturday which arrived on the following Tuesday whereas an invoice for same
posted on Sunday arrived on Monday: that did not look good. In these parts,
if you cannot make 12 noon on Saturday, Special D is actually delayed by
another 24 hours. On the other hand, in six years of using it, I have never
known Special D do less than it claims - which is more than one can say for
ParcelFarce. It does what it says on the tin. The weak link in the chain is
first class post. My mother has still not received the mother's day card I
sent three years ago and if you think that missing publishing deadlines is
bad news ....
Whilst not everyone, and I am sure we are all guilty of it especially me,
acknowledges email communications as we should, we may rest assured that if
something has gone wrong we'll hear about it - and sooner rather than
later.
As ever,
John
Subject: [sideline] Automatic indexing
Date: 27/06/2002 11:20:42
Is this any worse than authors who think that they can index their own
books? I have an abandoned case in point before me at the moment. I have
been sent what the author has done "in case it helps": it doesn't. Eg:-
8
rule of law [followed by 50 pages numbers]
Rule of Law see also rule of law [followed by 20 page numbers]
The first 32 pages of text, moreover, generated no less than 14 indexing
terms.
Now, if this was what you get when human intelligence has been brought into
play, what might a machine achieve?
I remember an article written these thirty years past. It was entitled "The
quiet stir of thought - or what the computer cannot do."
John Jeffries
PS And if you appreciate something dafter still. There are rules about the
documents which must be handed over in litigation (remember the arms to
Iraq scandal?) but sometimes one side may try it on by asking for material
only hoping that it could assist their case. In one book this was variously
described as a "fishing trip", a "fishing expedition" or a "fishing
excursion" - and without any piscine connotations at all. Sadly, no cases
were mentioned involving parties from the fishing industry itself. Imagine
my delight, however, when I found it described as a "Micawber" - you do it
in case something turns up. We can all come up with examples of this sort
of thing but you have to admit that this one is particularly silly.
----- Original Message ----From: Colin Mills <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:01 AM
Subject: [sideline] Automatic indexing
> I was organising my work to have my desk clear for the first half of
> August so that I could deal with a commission (from a firm which had
> better remain anonymous, online at least) when I received an e-mail from
> the production editor (who will also remain anonymous here) to say that
> because of the way the author had typeset the material, they were able to
> generate an index automatically and so would not require my services.
> ... but I wonder exactly what sort of software was used and how
> satisfactory the index is.
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Strings
Date: 04/07/2002 12:03:00
Tom Norton writes
> Although in the example quoted the author likes to work that way, it is a
> large assumption that the users of his book would also wish to do so.
> It's all very well doing what the author wants but I would have been
> inclined to consult the publishers about this unusual request to see if
> such a practice (ie large strings) accords with house style and practice.
> The author is not always the best judge of indexing practice.
I'm with Tom on this one.
Betty Moys once told me about a major legal practitioner work she had
indexed and had found herself departing from previous practice in such a
marked degree that she mentioned it to the publisher on the basis that
perhaps the learned author might have a view. The response was brief and to
the point. The index was no business of the author.
To be frank, I think that between us we could come with enough anecdotes of
assanine requests/requirements/demands made by authors to keep us all
laughing until Christmas. I don't think that it would be much to do with
invasions of the purity of the indexing turf but it might have a lot to do
with recognising crass stupidity when we see it.
9
As ever,
John Jeffries
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Indexing Theology
Date: 04/07/2002 13:42:59
Tom Norton, be of good comfort!
"For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth."
Proverbs 3:12
And, in any event:
"He that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent."
Proverbs 28:20
So, there are two respects in which we are all of us covered.
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] authors' misconceptions
Date: 04/07/2002 14:05:18
Drusilla writes:
"Another one is the confusion between indexing and classifying - I had to
work really hard recently to convince an author that putting all the
American place names under United States, then under the state, and finally
the place (with subheadings after that!) in a hierarchical structure wasn't
exactly standard indexing practice and wasn't likely to be very much use to
the reader - but then, perhaps I'm wrong!"
Which, I think, is very much to the point. They do see it as a
classification of knowledge - which might perhaps be the purpose of a
detailed contents list - and may be we do not help matters by sometimes
describing an index as a "route map" - could it be that we merely
perpetuate the confusion? Worse still, to many of them, their chapter title
is the main heading and their section title is the sub-heading - however
whimsical the choice of language. The EU has three committee procedures
known in the trade as "1", "2(a)" and "2(b)". Have you guessed? A section
heading: "2(b) or not 2(b)." Biggest groan of the week or what?
John Jeffries
Subject: [sideline] Words in foreign
Date: 05/07/2002 13:50:11
Comrades!
I am doing a book on East Asia where there is a great deal of material on
the People's Republic of China. Inevitably there are a number of words
which are transliterations from oriental languages into Latin script with
an English translation. It seems reasonable to index some of them, though
my inclination is to be selective, but to give both the original terms and
the suggested translation when I do. The problem is made worse because of a
tendency for the term only to appear in foreign in any subsequent mentions
I find that what I have actually done is this:
guanxi (connections)
10
household registration system (hukou)
"Guanxi" refers to the system of helping out people to whom you feel you
have a social connection even should it conflict with legal obligations and
is an expression I have come across before. Equally, I have come across
household registration before but didn't know is was called "hukou". What I
have done seems to me the most helpful but it is hardly consistent.
The obvious cop out would be to use (say) both "guanxi" and "connections"
but: (1) I'll run out of space and (2) "connections" is only a rough
translation anyway and not a term in widespread use. I doubt not that any
of you Han indexers out there would be able to improve on the translation
given.
Can any one see a sensible/easy way around this or do I just accept the
inconsistency and be done with it remembering that life is very short? It
doesn't seem to me to be quite the same as saying well here are several
expressions which mean much the same so I'll take a decision and use this
one only. In this instance, it happens also to be the case that none of the
words in foreign warrant subheadings so that see references don't get me
out of the fix either.
Thanks in anticipation for the guanxi.
As ever,
John Jeffries
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] author in own index
Date: 05/07/2002 14:04:13
Penny writes
> The author in this book frequently cites his own work - I've been a bit
> slow and didn't realise it was him! The consequence is I now have a large
> list of stuff under his name with subheadings (that also appear as main
> headings) but they are separate works. It all seems very strange to me or
> is it just because it's Friday and it's raining again?
>
I have encountered this phenomenon myself. In one striking case the author
seemed intent upon filling the shelves of the British Library by writing
the self-same thing over and over again. All they get from me is a string
of numbers after their name and subject indexing on the merits (if any).
It would not have looked any better had it been Thursday and the sun still
shining. It never does.
John J
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: Sideline: House of Leaves
Date: 08/07/2002 17:10:16
I am sure we should not ask. I wish it to be known, however, that I possess
an odd sock with a hole in it. It is my fixed intention to submit it for
the Turner Prize.
----- Original Message ----From: Christopher Pipe <[email protected]>
To: Hazel Bell <[email protected]>; SIdeline <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 4:48 PM
Subject: [sideline] Re: Sideline: House of Leaves
> Maybe we shouldn't ask? DNE = Do Not Enquire ???
11
[Background:
Hazel Bell had reported on House of Leaves by Mark Z. Danielewski (Anchor,
2000) which has 535 of text, followed by three appendices and a 42-page,
triple-column index. Some entries appeared mysteriously thus, exactly:
aggressor ... DNE
arterial ... DNE
ballerina ... DNE BJ]
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] re two-language texts
Date: 09/07/2002 13:05:54
There are a number of observations I should like to make here:
(1) In recent academic works by European scholars rendered in English I
detect an assumption that the academy can read both French and German but
not other languages. In other words, anything in say Italian should be
translated but, with French and German, Anglophones are expected to cope. I
do not know whether such an assumption is reasonable.
(2) Translating the proper names of organisations tends to be bad news.
Authors seem to have a lot of difficulty deciding what is an accurate
translation and often go for variety. The problem is compounded by the use
of abbreviations which can be in either language and either generally
accepted or ad hoc. My own inclination is to use the original name with any
abbreviation/initialism as used in the book - whether official,
semi-official or not - in parentheses. Thus:
Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands (SED)
with references from SED and Socialist Unity Party if they look as though
they are going to help anybody.
This runs the risk of being pedantic if it is actually some
abbreviation/acronym/initialism which is in general use. In order to be
able to show off and say that KGB stands for Komitet Gosudarstvennoi
Bezopasnosti I had to look it up. Few would either know it or recognise it
if they saw it and fewer still could pronounce it trippingly upon the
tongue. There cannot be many who have not heard of the KGB. Not many,
however, would think of the name in translation (Committee of State
Security).
(3) English or foreign terms? I asked a similar question and bored you all
into silence. For example, "Offentlichkeit" and "public domain". Without
having seen the book, I should probably run with:
Offentlichkeit (public domain)
public domain see Offentlichkeit
- if there are sub-headings - on the basis that the German is definitive,
otherwise double entry.
The point I raised concerned the persistent use of a foreign term with a
translation (possibly/probably weak) given only on the first occurrence.
"Glasnost" and "perestroika" would seem to be very good examples. They have
entered the (English) language whereas "openness" and "reform", whilst
precise in translation, lose every nuance of the original Russian (even for
people who speak no Russian!).
(4) The big issue is running up against extent. In the end, I guess it
comes down to a judgement as to what is most likely to help as opposed to
what technically covers one's backside and that loss of consistency may not
be merely inevitable but positively desirable.
12
John Jeffries
----- Original Message ----From: Hilary Cooper <[email protected]>
To: SIdeline <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:48 AM
Subject: [sideline] re two-language texts
> I would welcome opinions from people who have indexed this kind of text:> It is a text about language and the divided speech communities of east
> and west Germany... a significant amount of the text is given both in
> German and in English. The German term is always the definitive term as
> it is about Germany...
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] That sensitive subject - MONEY!
Date: 12/07/2002 10:53:16
Dear All,
I have a feeling in my bones that this is a subject upon which all of us
feel strongly.
Large companies have systems in place which usually involve a payment run
every two weeks (whether cheque or BACS) but they may or may not expect 30
days credit. Thirty days is a clear 30 days so payment on such terms could
easily turn into 40 days.
Thirty days is usual commercial terms and to be paid within that time means
one can count oneself lucky.
I start becoming restive after 60 days and begin to feel quite warmly about
the matter after 90. By 120 I could begin to appear quite tetchy about it.
The problem is that the person who offers the work is on the
editorial/production side and probably has no regular dealings with the
accounts department. The accounts department may not be in the same
building, it may not be in the same town - or even in the same country. I
have found, however, that editorial staff react well to a polite email
along the lines of "I am really sorry to be a bore about this but ..." and
will take it up on one's behalf.
It's not realistic to start beefing until 40 days have elapsed. After 60,
however, it means that either one's invoice has been lost or the company is
in financial difficulties. Only one of my customers has ever gone bust and
fortunately they didn't owe me any money at the time but I ought to have
twigged because I always had to chase them for payment.
You can sue in the county court but if ordinary reminders do no good the
chances are they are in deep trouble and the judgment would be
unenforceable. I seem to recall that 50% of county court judgments are
unenforceable. Should a customer go into receivership you have something to
write down to experience because that is all you will ever get. We are
unsecured creditors and right at the very back of the queue (after
employees, Her Majesty's tax gatherers and the banks).
John Jeffries
----- Original Message ----From: Lynda Swindells <[email protected]>
To: SIdeline <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 10:12 AM
Subject: [sideline] That sensitive subject - MONEY!
13
Last month I did a job for a publisher that I had not worked for before. On
the 26th June I sent off my invoice (after clarifying that they were happy
with my work) in the hope that it would get in before the end of the month.
Since then I have heard nothing.
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: That sensitive subject - MONEY!
Date: 12/07/2002 12:19:25
Dear All,
I am sorry to hear about Tony's experience. Were we employees we should at
least expect to be paid for the work we have done but there's the joys of
self-employment for you.
A credit check is a waste of money. At best it will be based on an analysis
of the most recent annual accounts filed. Just because you didn't have a
cold on December 31st, 2001 doesn't mean to say that you don't have one
today.
With at least one of my customers, I have thought about asking for my money
up front. I have not done it yet but I might. I don't think there is
anything unprofessional about expecting to be paid. Indeed, I suspect that
they might respect one more for being firm. Businesses not paying their
bills can expect to be black-listed or worse. Some of these people might
understand the better the way the world is should be refuse to work for
them. I do suspect that some of us may go in for polite refusals of work
without saying what we really mean.
I should have to say, however, that free-lance project managers and printer
project managers have usually been among the better payers (in one case by
return of post!).
I have wanted to put the following on statements but have never had the
bottle:
"Do not worry yourself about this bill, do not let it alarm or discomfit
you. Do not, I beg you, let it become a source of anxiety to you. Just grit
your teeth and pay it."
[Douglas Adams: Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency]
John J
----- Original Message ----From: Tony Hirst <[email protected]>
To: SIdeline <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 11:38 AM
Subject: [sideline] Re: That sensitive subject - MONEY!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I broke off from reading today's correspondence on the above subject to
pick up my mail from the postman, only to find that Minerva Press Ltd,
someone I hadn't dealt with before, had gone into liquidation owing me
about £500 for an autobiography. Ouch! That's the sort of coincidence I
could well have done without.
I knew they had recently moved from London to Leicester, which set slight
alarm bells ringing. Were they trying to save money? But I was sent a
purchase order etc., and my dealings with the commissioning editor seemed
quite normal and pleasant, so I went ahead.
Like John Jeffries, I started to become restive towards 60 days. I began
mildly chasing the item after 55 days - yesterday. Must have been a
premonition.
14
>
>
>
>
>
>
Apart from running a credit check on a new client, what does one do? From
my experience, Lynda Swindells is right to be wary of a new customer, in
my present experience. The trouble is, I've never expected payment before
30 > days and, as Lynda suggests, chasing an invoice up before that sort
of period has elapsed doesn't look professional.
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Money
Date: 12/07/2002 20:45:33
Dear All,
I think that Vicki's message is quite the most disturbing I have read in a
long time. In the first place, however, I believe that we must be indebted
to her for adding to our lists of publishers to avoid.
A year or so back I had a serious run in with an author and it was the
author who was paying and so, summoning all my dignity, I declined to
render a bill. She didn't complain about that. Perhaps I should have stuck
to my guns.
I find it very difficult to believe that Vicki could have submitted a
sub-standard piece of work. From what she says, I think that she must have
done the best she could in the time available ... which is a very different
story. I had one recently where I was put under very great pressure to
deliver quickly because the author thought he was about to get into the
best-seller list if only he published first. I guess I did about 70 hours
in seven consecutive days. I was on a fixed fee and I am yet to be paid it.
The problem with this book was that it largely consisted of Muslim names.
In about 450 pages there were about 1,500 of them.
We get advice from SoI on billing but for those of you old enough to
remember "South Pacific" it's about as helpful as advice from Tokyo Rose.
It sounds to me as though by maintaining standards of polite behaviour we
are just being taken for a ride. If this really is indexers against the
rest of the world I think that we should begin to unravel some more of our
experiences as Vicki as done for us. And learn by them.
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: Vicki Robinson <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 6:35 PM
Subject: [sideline] Money
Laurence King (formerly Calmann & King) pay at the beginning of the
month after the month you put your bill in, so if you finish the job
on July 2nd, say, you don't get paid till September 5th or 6th. I
don't quite know how they get away with it!
I've just done a substandard job (and am ashamed - all due to lack of
time) for Weidenfeld. They halved my fee. On the other hand, last
year I did a good job (I think) which took a long time, and they
tried to halve my fee by saying another indexer had done a job
recently on a book of the same length and that had only taken suchandsuch hours. I pointed out that books differ in their complexities
- which should be obvious. I ended by being £300 down. Has anyone
else suffered in this way?
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Nation of Islam
15
Date: 14/07/2002 09:03:08
Did a book on Japan recently whether the author had adopted
the bibliography, of giving two part Japanese names as they
living in Japan but inverting names for Japanese Americans.
because Japanese Americans tend to adopt the Western naming
don't know. Same for Islamic names, may be?
the policy, in
come for those
This presumably
convention: I
John J
[Background:
From: Christine Headley <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Nation of Islam
Date: 12/07/2002 22:15:11
I'm indexing a book about gangsta rap. (I can hardly believe it!)
Farrakhan, Louis is obvious, they say they want X, Malcolm, but they
don't mention Khalid Mohammad or Elijah Mohammad. I know about Islamic
names from the Middle East, but I'm less confident about the sort that
comes from America.
Any ideas?]
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: Conference postscript
Date: 21/07/2002 10:50:51
According to Brewer, the etymology (which the Shorter Oxford says is
obscure) is
wayz = bundle of hay, straw or stubble (evidently the entertainment took
place in August and marked the beginning of the season of working by
candlelight in the printing trade [Shorter Oxford])
goose (the crowning dish of the entertainment [Brewer]).
Thus, harvest goose?
I have to say that, like many explanations in Brewer, it has only the show
of plausibility. If Brewer is right, however, that would suggest to me that
the plural is irregular.
John J
----- Original Message ----From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 9:47 AM
Subject: [sideline] Re: Conference postscript
> In a message dated 20/07/02 20:17:36 GMT Daylight Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> << The term wayzgoose has reared its little head again. >>
>
> When I worked as a sub-editor (the term copy-editor had not yet been
> applied to us) at Cambridge University Press in the early seventies, the
> University printing house had an annual wayzgoose (unless memory is
> playing me false).
>
> In any event, the SI wayzgoose was an outstanding success. Thanks to all
> who worked so hard for us.
>
> Does anyone know the plural? Wayzgeese? Waysgooses?
16
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] sideline: sept 11th indexing
Date: 29/07/2002 13:57:52
Dear All,
I hadn't realised there had been a discussion on this. I have settled on:
World Trade Center bombing (1993)
and
World Trade Center atrocity (2001)
I think it does raise a point about not relying on today's fads of
expression if, in a year or so, forgetfulness will have made them
incomprehensible. [The clue, so as to speak, is in the question. It is
highly likely that a date in September was by no means unrelated to the
fact that it was in another September that Israeli forces occupied East
Jerusalem (third most revered site in Islam after Mecca and Medina) - hence
"Black September." The West's failure to grasp this point, or indeed
remember it, leaves many moderate Muslims feeling that it is enough to make
a sane person mad and the door wide open to the terrorism of religious
maniacs who consider any reprisal against the "crusaders" justified].
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: S.Bosanko <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:55 AM
Subject: [sideline] sideline: sept 11th indexing
> Further to the discussion about how to index September 11 and its
> variants, I came across a new one in the Independent on Saturday ...
> Sepeleven ...
>
> Don't know if it was someone trying to be clever or if it's going to
> creep into common usuage
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] sept 11th indexing
Date: 29/07/2002 15:57:15
This is interesting though I doubt, whilst not knowing, that there are any
other Word Trade Centers in New York state or any other New York cities
with World Trade Centres, so ...
World Trade Center bombing (New York, 1993) would seem to be amply specific
But what about September 11?
J
----- Original Message ----From: Sue Lambert <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [sideline] sept 11th indexing
> Dear All,
>
> The Library of Congress have settled on: World Trade Center Bombing, New
York,
> N.Y., 1993
17
> as their authorised form for subject headings…
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] OU report on portfolio careers
Date: 31/07/2002 10:37:04
Dear All,
I have been a SIdeliner for about six weeks in which time I have received
some 400 messages from you. The comfort in this is that one realises that
many of the things that have been a worry to me over the years have
been/are a worry to others too. I should be bound to say, however, that
managing my proofs has never been one of them. Stuff done is to my extreme
left, current chapter to the immediate left of the keyboard and what
remains to be done on the floor to my right under an enormous brass paperweight (which is actually a tram trolley wheel). I do sometimes get the
indexing dreams on non-indexing subjects but that seems to be mother
nature's way of telling me to ease off a bit.
The advantages/disadvantages of the wonderful world of self-employment are,
however, largely an irrelevance. This is not a portfolio career, it is not
sublime self-indulgence, it is not a desire for pin-money. I know of no
other way of making a living: It is a case of being sworn brother sweet to
grim necessity.
As ever,
John J
PS The ecological borough in which I live has a fortnightly household
recycling collection. Environmentalists among you will know whether this
does in fact serve a purpose beyond waste collection. If it does, then the
obvious thing is to pressure other local authorities to do the same. Or, in
the alternative, am I a very naughty person for using it as a means of
disposing of commercial waste?
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] References to captions/illustrations
Date: 02/08/2002 13:53:02
Dear All,
I can remember "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" [Salvor
Hardin in "Foundation" by Isaac Asimov] no doubt inspired by patriotism and
scoundrels [Samuel Johnson].
Having worked in a place where consistency was prized above rubies,
however, I would suggest:
Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
But it gets worse:
"Too much consistency is as bad for the mind as it is for the body.
Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely
consistent people are the dead." [Aldous Huxley].
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: Madaleine Combie <[email protected]>
To: sideline <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:01 PM
18
Subject: [sideline] References to captions/illustrations
>
>
>
>
>
Most of the captions in an art book I am indexing appear on the same page
as the illustrations but at the beginning of each chapter they appear on
the page opposite. Should I always refer to the page with the caption on
it for consistency or does it not matter? I believe that there is a quote
that "consistency is the last refuge of the desperate".
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] consistency - beware
Date: 02/08/2002 16:37:51
"She's a beagle true bred, and one that adores me. What o' that?
"I was adored once too."
Twelfth Night
"The wild are constant, and the cunning known;
The fool consistent, and the false sincere."
Alexander Pope
"I could be bounded in a nut-shell, and count myself a king of infinite
space, were it not that I have bad dreams."
Hamlet
Full circle or what ... when a dream is but a shadow?
J
[Background:
From: Madaleine Combie <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] consistency - beware
Date: 02/08/2002 15:07:53
Thank you to Tom Norton and John Jeffries for comments on consistency. I
shall refer to the pages with captions throughout.
As regards quotations on consistency, I think I probably got my own,
perhaps apochryphal, one wrong but note this:
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little
statesmen and philosophers and divines." - Ralph Waldo Emerson (Penguin
Dict of Quot).
We indexers have continually to tread the path between appearing to be
foolish (but adored by some) and saving valuable space. A dead indexer (see
Huxley, quoted by John J) is not much use.
Notice seen on someone's very messy desk a long time ago: "A tidy desk is a
sign of an unsound mind". This gives me hope.]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Shrewsbury
Date: 07/08/2002 05:20:54
Shrewsbury can be a hole and a half when it comes to parking and
surprisingly difficult to navigate once on foot. I live in Leicestershire
and Shrewsbury is a two hours away by road and goodness knows how long by
rail. On that basis, London is actually less aggravation to me.
There is plenty of parking space in Telford but it is laid out for
shoppers,much as one might expect, and tends to be more congested at the
weekends than during the week. The bus station is in the town centre but
the train station does not seem to be near anywhere in particular.
John Jeffries.
19
----- Original Message ----From: Krys <[email protected]>
To: SIdeline <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 2:47 AM
Subject: [sideline] Re: Shrewsbury
> I live in Nottingham, and in terms of overall sanity, wellbeing, etc,
would
> far prefer to go to Shrewsbury for a workshop than to London, which I
avoid
> like the plague unless I really have to go for day job work reasons.
Going
> to any workshop anywhere would, however, depend on dates, ie weekdays are
a
> total no no, weekends are sometimes booked up to 2 years in advance.
>
> My potential objection to Shrewsbury is that I've heard parking is really
> difficult in the town centre. I'm not prepared to waste hours of extra
> time and double the money to try and reach a venue by train instead of by
> car. It's also more tax-efficient to claim mileage instead of train
fares,
> because my petrol costs are only a quarter of the IR minimum rate.
>
> Telford?
>
> krys
>
>
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Shrewsbury
Date: 07/08/2002 21:14:54
Perfectly true. I never even found the castle so my prospects of finding an
indexing seminar would appear singularly remote. Hence, the observation was
perhaps not quite so irrelevant after all. That's supposing I saw much
merit in attending in the first place.
----- Original Message ----From: John Sampson <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 8:44 PM
Subject: [sideline] Shrewsbury
> Hello >
> > Shrewsbury can be a hole and a half when it comes to parking and
> > surprisingly difficult to navigate once on foot.
>
> Totally irrelevant, but I believe the street layout was intended to make
it
> difficult for marauders to find their way to the castle to attack it.
>
> Regards
>
> _John Sampson_
>
>
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Chapter summaries and headings within
chapters, use of
Date: 13/08/2002 13:12:54
20
Dear SIdeliners,
I do not think that Madaleine is cynical in the least. I mainly do law and
have seen some absolute corkers over the years.
Particular favourite was a chapter heading "Polycracy". The word appeared
once ... in the closing paragraph and what it means I still cannot really
say.
I have also had the experience of being told my page number were awry for
*not* following the headings (that is, the heading is on p.20 but the
author does not get around to writing about that particular subject until
p.21 or, they do start on p.20 but the heading is on p.21).
An interesting sub-set of the chapter summary phenomenon is when the book
is a collection of essays with an editor's introduction. If the editor does
truly summarise the rest of the book there is a case for going berserk on
the introduction because it ought to provide the essential structure of the
entire index. The weakness with this is that editors and their contributors
do not necessarily share a common understanding of the subject or else they
simply do not agree!
Also, don't you just love it when you get to those weasel words "as we saw
in Chapter 9" and you think to yourself: "we did?"?
As ever,
John J
[Background:
From: Madaleine Combie <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Chapter summaries and headings within chapters, use of
Date: 13/08/2002 11:46:20
Laurence said:
==
I must say I love these detailed chapter summaries which allow indexers
to see what is coming up at one glance. They often show the title
hierarchy in a very clear way that is not so obvious on reading through
the chapter.
==
Lovely in theory - perhaps even in practice for medical, legal, etc.? The
heading hierarchy can be a double-edged sword when the nice clear headings
do NOT match the author's content within the actual chapter (i.e., "clear
way that is not so obvious"). I call this sort "stuck-on" headings. Of
course if they really do match, then, they "come as a boon and a blessing
to men [and women]" as in "The peacock, the owl and the Waverley Pen" (very
old advert for latter).
If they don't match, then if you index the headings and their page ranges,
it looks "consistent" (that again) in the index, but is *wrong* when you
come to the text.
So you ask "What sort of bad books does she index?". The answer humanities.
The problem with indexing theory is that it presupposes a well-structured,
well-written book.
Yours cynically]
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Synonyms
Date: 14/08/2002 11:32:23
I think John's second approach is to be preferred not the least because one
is less likely to get into a mess especially if it becomes necessary to use
sub-heads.
21
Sometimes, however, there may be a reason for the difference. I once did a
book where several if not all of the contributors discussed the medieval
myth that Jews killed and sometimes ate Christian children (there is still
a shrine to be seen at Lincoln Cathedral to a supposed victim). Amongst
Jewish scholars, it seems that whether one speaks of "ritual murder
accusations" or "blood libel" is itself deeply controversial. My writers
appeared to split about 50/50. I decided to index both expressions as they
occurred with cross references. The general editor insisted that this be
changed to her own preferred term for all.
John J
[Background:
From: John Sampson <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Synonyms
Date: 14/08/2002 10:44:03
In multi-author books sometimes two authors use different terms for what
the indexer knows is the same thing, yet there is no indication in the text
that they are synonymous. One term appears on certain pages, the other on
certain other pages... there seem to be two possible approaches 1/ Give page references for both terms as well as mutual 'see also'
cross-references, e.g.
autos 67, 89, see also cars
cars 21, 45, see also autos
2/ Impose a preference for one term, giving all the page references under
it, and merely a 'see' cross-reference from the non-preferred term, e.g.
autos, see cars
cars (autos) 21, 45, 67, 89
Are there strong opinions for one or the other approach, in general?]
Subject: [sideline] Repetitions
Date: 15/08/2002 09:47:26
Dear SIdeliners,
A theme of recent traffic has been avoiding material which does not convey
any new information. This bothers me because if it is pure repetition why
did the author(s) write it? It also bothers me with stuff at the end of a
chapter headed "conclusions," "summary", etc which has been known often
enough to include entirely new arguments.
The point about the desperation of academic editors in their attempts to
apply some coherence to the disparate efforts of their various writers is a
good one. Again, before dismissing it out of hand however, it is necessary
to check whether there is some original contribution and that it is not
merely part of the academic rat race to get one's name on the title page of
as many books as possible with the least expenditure of effort.
With some books it can be assumed that few/no users will read cover-tocover and that - may be - is the logical basis of any repetition. I own a
two volume loose-leaf, for example, which defines the term "shadow
director" ten times and in more or less the same words. I dare say that the
term could have been defined once with a reference to that part of the text
on the nine subsequent occasions a writer thought it important enough to
mention ...
it's just that they didn't do that. I cannot see that there was any option
but to index "shadow directors, definition" plus all ten numbers. Whilst
22
this is a particularly extreme example the problem arisies often enough.
Did I do wrong?
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Synonyms/near-synonyms
Date: 16/08/2002 11:30:14
>
>
>
>
>
On synonyms, sometimes all the authors will use two terms completely
interchangeably, except one who writes a long discussion explaining why
they are distinct and must not be confused with each other.
Sometimes one has to make do with the least wrong answer.
How very true! There is also every prospect of pleasing no one.
When it gets particularly tricky is where two seemingly related concepts
may actually be theoretical opposites. For example, a "sub-culture" might
be something which is perceived as a harmless or indeed enriching piece of
societal diversity whereas a "contra-culture" aims at subverting the larger
society. All the same, many readers interested in one are quite likely to
be interested in the other - albeit some others would be helped by
maintaining the distinction. In such a situation, I cannot see a better way
of dealing with the problem than by sticking with what is written on the
page and linking the entries with references.
I once received a whole load of stuff on why references were to be avoided
from one publisher whilst another said that I should use as many as
possible. Why this should be a matter of taste I know not. Like so much in
life it seems to be more a matter of common sense.
John J
[Background:
John was selecting from:
From: John Sampson <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Synonyms]
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Data Protection
Date: 16/08/2002 13:09:22
Freelances may be in a somewhat analogous position to teleworkers where the
compliance issue would be about preventing unauthorised access to,
alteration, disclosure, destruction or accidental loss of personal data.
To get into trouble over such things we would probably have to be shown to
be negligent in which case the liability would be very likely personal and
we would not be able to rely on an indemnity from a publisher. Whether
anyone would think we were worth powder and shot, however, is another
story.
John J
----- Original Message ----From: Margaret McCormack <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 12:15 PM
Subject: [sideline] Data Protection
23
> Can anyone tell me if we, as freelance indexers, are obliged to complete
a
> registration for the Data Protection Agency? My son has received one to
> complete and I see it is required if you are processing data (relating to
a
> living individual who can be identified) for electronic correspondence,
> accounts and records, and data processed on a computer. As there is a
large
> fine for anyone who fails to register, I thought I had better check it
out!
> Margaret McCormack
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: Repetitions
Date: 19/08/2002 15:51:14
Well folks, all I can say is that I'm glad that it is a woman mentioning
this one!
I did a job once where the author specified that she would under no
circumstances tolerate a heading "women" unless there was a corresponding
heading "men" (she was prepared to accept "gender differences").
The question was pre-empted, however, because she didn't mention "men" at
all and, in any event, only ever used the feminine pronoun. It was a book
on urban history.
John J
----- Original Message ----From: Valerie Elliston <[email protected]>
To: Sideline <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 2:55 PM
Subject: [sideline] Re: Repetitions
> Auriol: especially if the word <gender> appears in the title or
> subtitle! I avoid these like the plague!
>
> Valerie
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] overpayment
Date: 20/08/2002 10:37:07
I did a job of tabling and indexing on a rather big book one time and
invoiced £906. At that time, it was probably the biggest invoice I had ever
raised. A cheque arrived. I looked at it. Then I made sure I was wearing my
glasses. It was in the sum of £9066 - and had been personally signed by two
directors of the company.
And they made me wait before drawing a cheque in the correct amount.
I still wonder whether they would ever have noticed had I said nothing. At
that time it would not have been a criminal offence: it is now.
John J
----- Original Message ----From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 9:54 AM
Subject: [sideline] overpayment
In view of the recent discussion on late payment, I thought it might amuse
you all to hear that yesterday I received a cheque (exactly 30 days after
24
date of invoice) made out for £1000 more than the invoice figure. Not in
overwhelming appreciation for the quality of my work of course, but a
clerical error in the accounts department. Or, for conspiracy theorists, a
cunning (risky?) variation of the 'cheque's in the post' ploy, since I have
had to return it uncashed?
Has this ever happened to anyone else?
Cath
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] overpayments
Date: 20/08/2002 12:30:24
The only thing that bothers me about paying in a cheque for the larger
amount and refunding the difference is whether it might actually be caught
by the offence of dishonestly retaining a wrongful credit. Seemingly one
would have to take immediate steps to refund the difference in order to
benefit from the defence of taking "such steps as are reasonable in the
circumstances to secure that the credit is cancelled." The mere fact of
having the use of the money albeit for only a few days might undermine that
defence.
John J
----- Original Message ----From: John Goodman <[email protected]>
To: SIdeline <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 11:48 AM
Subject: [sideline] overpayments
> As an accountant for many years in a life before indexing, I am amazed at
> the reactions to overpayments received by sideliners. Not only have you
> been inconvenienced by having to advise them of their error, you have
> also been penalised by the resultant delay in payment. Accountants are
> only too aware of the cost that time adds to a price, and I, as the
> accountant, would have expected to have received a cheque for the
> *difference* by return, certainly not the return of the cheque for
> correction.
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] re: see also & see under
Date: 21/08/2002 11:42:10
> I'd be interested to learn what other indexers do when they want to refer
from one subheading to another when both are under the same main entry. I
have used _see below(or above) at ... _ but feel a bit uncomfortable with
it. It can be long on words, and if you don't make it specific enough it
could be confusing.
bw - John Noble
Dear SIdeliners,
I am sure that I have read instructions from one publisher which has set
its face against this (or say rather the person who drafted the
instructions - who is likely to be one of us).
If I find myself wanting to do it the chances are that I have already
created something which is over-complicated as it is. My inclination would
usually be to find a way of turning those subheadings into main headings
with what ever ^see^ and ^see also^ references seem to have a use. Most
times this appears to achieve greater clarity - although it may well be at
the cost of scattering related material.
For example, instead of
cat fleas ^see under^ fleas
25
fleas
cats
[something very long and complicated indicating that fleas on dogs
might be just as relevant and interesting]
dogs
I might use
fleas
cats ^see^ cat fleas
cat fleas
^see also^ dog fleas
or what ever.
John J
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: overpayment
Date: 21/08/2002 14:06:03
Dear SIdeliners,
I'll make these further comments and then I'll shut up. If you pay money
into a bank account to which you know that you are not entitled, you commit
an offence. If money to which you know that you are not entitled ends up in
your bank account, you commit an offence. It's actually intended to combat
laundering the proceeds of crime but the offence is drawn more widely than
that. A charge under such a count would be more easily sustained than a
Theft Act offence because it is not necessary to prove intent to
permanently deprive. All that's necessary is to show that no "reasonable"
steps were taken to pay the money back. Whilst waiting for the payment to
clear one is not taking any steps at all. And, you do send them a cheque
which goes astray in the post or is lost in their system and you have no
evidence that you ever did anything, what then? In the alternative, you pay
in the cheque and send them a refund on the same day and then you find that
they have actually stopped their cheque, where does that leave you?
Remember that in my case I should have been refunding £8160 on an invoice
of £906. No, there are just too many things that could go wrong. Life is
complicated enough.
By the way, for the sake of completeness I think that I should add that the
true treasure must only be in Heaven ... I never got another job from them.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Innocence in the context of Overpayments
Date: 22/08/2002 14:09:16
> As one, sadly probably apocryphal notice once said, "....the penalty for
> this offence shall be death or such greater punishment as the Court shall
> decide"
A deliberate misquotation from the "Articles of War", I think
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: overpayment
Date: 23/08/2002 14:41:41
26
And I said I would shut up!
Dungeons come as standard. You get charged extra for the rat-infestation.
The presumption of innocence does not and never did enter into this. All
that means is that no one is punished until found guilty by due process. If
possible offenders were never suspected of criminality no one would ever be
arrested, would they?
Jill's point precisely exemplifies mine. You could get into trouble even
from the position of the squeaky clean, whiter than white, irreproachable
honesty for which indexers have always considered themselves conspicuous
and which might still be the unintended downfall of one or two.
"A person is guilty of an offence if-(a) a wrongful credit has been made to an account kept by him or in respect
of which he has any right or interest;
(b) he knows or believes that the credit is wrongful; and
(c) he dishonestly fails to take such steps as are reasonable in the
circumstances to secure that the credit is cancelled."
Yesterday, in Jill's case, the first limb of the offence obtained
(notwithstanding that she is a her and not a him). Today, so does the
second. The second limb might also have done before should a court be
prepared to impute constructive knowledge - never mind what you say you
knew, what ought a reasonable person have known?
I read the third limb as a defence - in other words, to rely on it you have
to prove something. This is known in the trade as the reverse burden of
proof - otherwise, the Crown would, in effect, have to prove a negative.
I don't know what if any sentencing guidelines exist but, on a Friday
before a bank holiday, in Jill's case, who would say more than six months?
Let us be merciful.
As ever,
John J
PS I recall that the "lesser penalty” included being flogged around the
fleet. Since the punishment continued after the subject was dead, that
might be considered a greater penalty.
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] sideline: see under
Date: 23/08/2002 17:13:22
I REALLY am going to shut up and do some work this weekend instead. I
PROMISE (Sorry for shouting).
Unlike Barliman Butterbur, I don't always see through a brick wall in time
which is may be why I should not do this.
What's wrong with:
brick walls
^see also^ walls
walls
brick ^see^ brick walls
supposing, of course, that it does help?
27
Yours trappistly.
John
----- Original Message ----From: Anne McCarthy <[email protected]>
To: sideline <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 4:39 PM
Subject: [sideline] sideline: see under
> I have nothing in particular to add to the general debate (though I do
> use 'see under' occasionally and in some circumstances find it very
> useful).
> However it has sometimes occurred to me that we do rather unquestioningly
> make the assumption that the reader will correctly interpret the comma in
> a cross-reference as indicating a subheading:
> that an entry such as
> brick walls 'see' walls, brick
> would most likely appear as
> walls
> brick
>
> Is it as obvious to everyone as it is to us?
Subject: [sideline] Bank holidays for some
Date: 23/08/2002 18:46:08
And didn't I say I'd shut up!!!
" Dear Mr Jefferies,
[If we are being formal, it's "Dr Jeffries" but my friends call me "John"]
..
Supplement 19 is currently running about two weeks late. Unfortunately
this update has a very tight four week (start to finish) schedule so we are
trying to pull out all the stops to publish on time.
The index will be with you towards the end of next week and I'd be grateful
if you would return it as soon as possible.
..."
And this is a tale I have heard once too often. What we do about it,
comrades, is another story....
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] membership in indexing societies
Date: 26/08/2002 13:50:55
Dear SIdeliners,
John's comments are seldom if ever irrelevant and the instant case is no
exception.
The original statement was:
" ... an organization full of free-riders - i.e., people who take advantage
of its benefits (e.g., recognition as a professional) without contributing
to furthering it or its objectives.
Increasing the number of members without also increasing their commitment
will not increase the effectiveness of the organization."
"Free-rider" is essentially an economic concept referring to those who make
money out of the exertions/investment of others - often expressed as
"reaping where you have not sown" or, more formally, as "misappropriation."
This does not seem to me to be apposite so far as professional association
is concerned. In any event, previous experience suggests to me that the
28
effort exerted in furthering the objectives exceeds the advantage of the
benefits by a considerable factor. Those who do it know it and, direct
advantage is not the reason for doing it. The whole point is that it is a
collective effort and a common cause even though all you do is pay your
membership dues. Some people are good in leadership roles and enjoy being
there too: I've done that. If one may draw an extravagant parallel: you may
have noticed that a flock of birds often flies in an arrow-head formation.
That's because each benefits from the slip-stream of the one in front aside from the leader. That's why they take it in turns to be leader. It's
called "co-operation" or even "enlightened self-interest." You are usually
better off going with the flow than out on your own (unless your name is
Margaret Thatcher).
The very notion of buying "professional recognition", moreover, solely by
paying an SoI membership subscription, is more than merely far-fetched, it
is manifestly absurd.
As ever,
John J
> Hello >
> There is a great deal in these proposals, but if I might make one
slightly
> irrelevant comment, paid-up members of societies should not be called
free
> riders. Those who cannot afford to spend time on society business are no
> less indexers and no less professional for that.
>
> Regards
>
> _John Sampson_
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] holidays
Date: 27/08/2002 15:28:21
I was beginning to wonder what these holiday things were that people keep
mentioning. I thought it only applied to the permanent employees of
publishing houses who, when you submit work on the date demanded, have
developed an automatic email response which indicates that they may attend
to it when they are back at their desks ... a week later. The last time
this happened to me was this morning.
John J
----- Original Message ----From: Geraldine Beare <[email protected]>
To: soc ind list <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 2:53 PM
Subject: [sideline] holidays
> Maureen queried whether Drusilla was on holiday. I understand 'holiday'
> to mean not answering the phone - and not having the phone ringing for
> work.
> It certainly doesn't mean being away from the computer. In fact it is an
> ideal opportunity to catch up with the nitty gritty details of the
> niceties of indexing as discussed on SIdeline - I am now totally lost as
> regards the current issues - and getting down to uninterrupted indexing
> where strong liquors help to clear - maybe I should say 'relax' - the
> brain.
> Definitely needed this weekend as I am struggling with a dense text on
> African-American philosophy...
>
29
> Happy hols!
>
> Geraldine
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: Re: compound terms
Date: 27/08/2002 17:59:46
Now there's a thing. Actually, I find it very difficult to work without
Radio 3 except when it is jazz, "world music" or someone very pretentious
prattling on. In desperation I have then been known to switch to Classic FM
but if I hear about the BMI Spokesbaby having learned some new words again
I might very well turn homicidal. And, so far as I am concerned, some of
those presenters will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
John J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Well, I was - but I'm back now if anyone wants to contact, but I'm
finding it nearly impossible to do any work in this fantastic weather and
with such an amazing selection of music on Radio 3 today (Beethoven pno
trios, Janet Baker/Gerald Moore and Strauss' Morgen, etc. etc) - I'll try
to persevere!
Best wishes
Drusilla
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Holidays and radio
Date: 27/08/2002 21:56:58
I wish to propose a new Special Interest Group. Membership will be confined
to those who:
(a) are regularly conned into working on bank holidays and other occasions
when their fellows do no work at all;
(b) on each occurrence get seen off a treat but appear never to either
learn or otherwise profit from the experience; and
(c) cannot stand Jane Jones.
Subject: [sideline] Acknowledged or forgotten
Date: 28/08/2002 12:01:39
.. the double clown act of a typesetter saving space and an editor who
didn't think
that this might affect the index...
Valerie, you have a way with words.
I think there are a lot of reasons for preferring a decent oblivion. With
desk editors, moreover, I have been known to wonder whether some of them
think at all.
There's a loose-leaf I own which must have a curse on it for everything
which might have gone wrong with it at some stage has. It was a mere
triviality that one of those things was that the publisher took 12 months
to set me up with a complimentary subscription such that I had three lots
of updating to file at once - the first already a year old. There was an
instruction to ditch an entire section and replace it with another. At this
point I froze because I knew that the index entries for the allegedly
deleted section had *not* been removed. My next reaction was to affect
30
Nelsonian blindness. Then I thought, "no, professional standards must be
upheld." All the same, I thought I might as well check further to see if I
had a get-out. These particular filing instructions came with a list of
those page ranges one should have left after having done the filing –
though the chances are that no subscriber ever does check them. Yea verily,
section "XX" was supposed to be there yet.
I mentioned to the editor that there was a problem with section "XX" and
got a querulous response saying that her copy did not have a section "XX".
I mentioned that the introduction still referred to section "XX". After
several hours, I got a "thank you" for having drawn attention to a rather
serious problem. They had to reprint and reissue section "XX".
Now why do I bore you with this? In a 12-month no one but no one had
noticed: no user, no contributor, nor yet an editor. Does this mean that no
one uses the index or that no one uses the book? Cosa dici? Saldo amico,
finem lauda, finem lauda!
John J
[Background:
From: Valerie Elliston <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Rowan Williams: Indexing him and bding
acknowledged therefore
Date: 28/08/2002 10:35:22
Re. Christine's and Maureen's messages about acknowledging indexers. I
shall never forget making an index for an author who was so appreciative
that she wrote in the Acknowledgements: <and to Valerie Elliston for the
meticulous care with which she compiled the index> - only to find no fewer
than 67 (yes, sixty-seven) errors in my index, introduced by the double
clown act of a typesetter saving space and an editor who didn't think that
this might affect the index. It was corrected in the paperback edition, but
I had a bad time explaining the hardback, especially as - to crown it all I received a complimentary copy! I wrote to the Managing Editor (so did the
author) but, of course, there was no redress. Needless to say, I wouldn't
dream of indexing for this (very well-known) publisher again. Nor would
they want me, either, after all the sound and fury!
So now I am pretty ambivalent about those acknowledgements or named
indexes. For those who know this tale, my apologies, but it serves as yet
another Awful Warning to more recent indexers. At the end of my covering
letter, I usually mention the obvious fact that <any changes might affect
the index>.]
Subject: [sideline] [sideline]: Holidays
Date: 28/08/2002 14:27:28
>
>
>
>
My trouble is that I find it hard to feel on holiday in my own home
which is also (as with most of you) my workplace. No trouble with
weekends but I can't imagine taking a week off and pottering around the
house when I can see my office door all the time.
Laurence is quite right.
I once worked in an organisation where people found it almost impossible to
distinguish between work and non-work. They were a bunch of thirtysomething singles who fell out of the office and into the pub and sometimes
back into the office again afterwards. I also worked in a place where the
boss thought of the office as no more than extension of herself.
As a result of these things, I am more than usually aware of the need to
shut the shop door but it is definitely in the realms of the more easily
said than done. If you have a proper job you can go home and at least try
to forget about it. Equally, the same may be true if you work in premises
separate from your home albeit self-employed. If you work may be ten paces
31
from where you read a book or take in a TV programme it's a very different
case. There is the double bind of knowing that you have the freedom to
choose to start earlier and finish later as well as the freedom to pull the
plug and say "oh *** it" for the day. Methinks that those who endure a
contract of employment might reflect upon how simple it does make life's
choices.
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Holidays
Date: 28/08/2002 19:13:52
I think that this may be annual leave + bank holidays + average number of
days off sick (with an assumption of SIX weeks annual paid leave).
----- Original Message ----From: Sue Lightfoot <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 1:00 PM
Subject: [sideline] Re: Holidays
> Derek wrote:
>
> >I suggest that as self-employed we should allocate ourselves the same
> >holidays as the employed (20 days plus bank holidays).
>
> I made a note at some conference that the rule of thumb for
> calculating workdays per year was 220 days. This can't be right: 365
> days - weekends - 220 workdays - 20 holidays = . . . . There aren't
> 21 bank holidays . . .
>
> Can someone put me straight??
>
> Sue
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Best typo?
Date: 28/08/2002 19:31:36
I am doing a book with contributions by authors from many nations and, with
some, it is but courteous to say that their Ingleesh she is not so well.
Today, I found comment on some suggestions by the "Committee Cook of the
International Payments Bank at Basle".
I have this wonderful image
those blue checked trousers
transactions to the rest of
Any jokes about cooking the
of someone in
proposing the
the committee
books will be
a chef's hat, a white tunic and
reform of international business
whilst preparing an omelette.
frowned upon.
John J
Subject: [sideline] Shoplifting
Date: 04/09/2002 10:35:38
Lifting is a slang expression meaning to take up with dishonest intentions.
So the word "shop" merely qualifies the type of "lifting". The distinction
is with shop-breaking, that is to burgle a shop. Lifting also seems to
describe cattle rustling (Shorter Oxford Dictionary).
John J
[Background:
32
From: Valerie Elliston <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Pet hates - and lights
Date: 03/09/2002 17:40:15
... And yes - what fun to find someone else who admits to collecting the
postman's rejects! They're such strong thick ones. I do stop short at
picking them up from pavements - if anyone's looking! Paper clips too. But
why do we do this when we really can afford to buy the odd packet or two?
Is it getting close to shoplifting by people who are found to have full
wallets? (And why is it called shoplifting - they are not lifting
shops?)...]
Subject: [sideline] Re: working from uncorrected proofs
Date: 05/09/2002 11:16:27
Dear All,
I'd love to know how they propose to make changes in-house. There have been
only two occasions when I have been told that is what they proposed to do
and, once I had explained what was going to need to happen, they swiftly
changed their minds. There are ways in which editorial staff can be just as
uncomprehending as authors. It's a mind-set which decides that if only 1%
of the text has changed, only 1% of the index can have changed also. They
may screw-up the pagination in half a chapter, moreover, just to avoid
having a short page. They seem incapable of grasping the consequences of
even trivial cosmetic changes. It's a mind-set which says that here is a
new edition of the book and there are only modest changes here or there so
generating a new index can hardly be any trouble at all.
My favourite was the guy who had next to no material for a loose-leaf
release. He decided to split the first para of one section into two and
re-number to the end of the section. I mentioned to him that, as it was
indexed to a depth of about six entries to a page and that there were about
100 pages, there would be some 600 alterations to the index when nothing in
the text had changed at all. "Oh," he said, "I hadn't thought of that."
Those afflicted by loose-leaf works, like me, will have torn out their
little remaining hair from having to work with manuscript. I have had
speech only today with a very dependable editor who has taken over one of
my titles. She freely admits that *all* her colleagues have a wholly
cavalier attitude to late amendments and the reason is simple. They are
under pressure from management to get *something* onto the streets and that
is the *only* priority they have. In the last six years I have worked on
about 25 loose-leaf titles and the only occasion I have ever received copy
for textual amendments after I had done my indexing (whether base work or
updating) was this morning (from person previously alluded to).
I was also once compelled to produce an index for a substantially
incomplete work. For some reason which still escapes me they seemed to
think that it helped to have a proportion of the index type-set. Whilst it
might have helped to have chunks of incomplete text set, I fail to see what
use a partial index was supposed to be. Nothing I could say would persuade
them otherwise. They were quite happy to publish an index to about twothirds of the work. The work was published. It had an index. End of story.
An attempt to produce a CD of a major work became unstuck because they
would keep amending paper and were too tired to make the consequential
amendments to the database By now, some of you are bound to know which
publisher I am talking about ...
As ever,
John
33
----- Original Message ----From: Catherine Hookway <[email protected]>
> I am currently indexing a book from the first set of proofs. I explained
> to the (freelance) editor that any changes to the proofs would affect the
> index and was told that this is normal practice and any corrections to
> indexes are done by in-house staff. This is a large publisher and I find
> it hard to believe that they waste time and money doing this with every
> book.
Subject: [sideline] Uncorrected proofs
Date: 05/09/2002 12:56:19
Dear SIdeliners,
Another thought has just struck me. It gets better. Sometimes this shows us
what the blighters are actually up to.
With one of my loose-leafs, I once told you how section A1 was accidentally
deleted and had to be reprinted (so the punters paid for it twice). For the
last release of this work, old A1 was finally laid to rest and replaced by
A1A (renumbered as A1). For the present release new A1 (old A1A) is being
re-issued ... because a date in the running header was not corrected the
time before. This means that - I realised this after 87 folios - the
punters will eventually have paid for the same material *three* times
without there having been a single textual amendment: not the alteration of
one single full point....
And guess what? The rest of the material in this release? Existing section
A3 is deleted and A3A is renumbered as A3. Thus, the punters will have paid
for new A3 twice over too. Good or what?
As ever,
John
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] SIdeline A complaint
Date: 05/09/2002 14:27:15
I am grateful to June for mentioning my long flowing lines ... but this can
be only because she has never actually seen me. I should wish to add,
moreover, that unlike a person spoken of in some of today's earlier
correspondence, I have far too much respect for all of my colleagues than
to ask any of them to "bare with me."
Equally, there is more to this email business than I shall ever understand
such as whether a > or a vertical line is thrown to indicate the previous
message and why some messages come out on a white background and others on
grey. Someone out there is bound to know.
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: June Morrison <[email protected]>
To: sideline <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 1:42 PM
Subject: [sideline] SIdeline A complaint
> I'm puzzled -- I prune my line length to half the length of
34
>
>
>
>
>
the box and still the text gets unfashionably chopped
about when relayed. How does John J manage to have
such nice long flowing lines of text?
But, on what he wrote therein, what a scam is going on.
Subject: [sideline] Plain text
Date: 05/09/2002 16:59:23
So far as I can see, I only send messages in plain text - that seems to be
my default setting but then I am usually replying to someone else's
message. Does that change anything? I know that all this is a source of
unhappiness and would wish to be corrected if I am not doing right.
----- Original Message ----From: Liz Cook <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 3:59 PM
Subject: [sideline] Annoying proofs
> One of my regular publishers recently tried to save paper by sending me
> proofs on scrap paper (pages of previous works I had indexed, I might
> add).
> Not only that but it was very unusually shiny, almost waxy, paper so you
> can imagine that, as it continually slid out of my hands, it was quite
> difficult to work out which side of the paper I was supposed to be
> dealing with. I have known the editor, well, the managing director and
> owner of the firm, for a long time so was able to say that while his
> efforts to save paper were laudable, I'd rather he went back to less
> slippery sheets, though I didn't add that he was also depriving me of my
> scrap paper, and I have my fingers crossed that his thriftiness doesn't
> mean I shall never get paid.
>
> PS Some of John Jeffries' emails seem to come *not* in plain text - could
> this be why they may look "long and flowing".
Subject: [sideline] Supplementary Indexes
Date: 07/09/2002 05:16:17
Dear SIdeliners,
Has anyone recent experience of producing supplementary indexes? The
situation is that a loose-leaf release is over-extent so they are saving
paper by issuing only supplementary tables/index. I do not like this at all
because, whilst it may only be a minor inconvenience to the user searching
for additional material, what about deleted and amended material? As it
happens, an entire section has been re-written [there are 303 numbered
paragraphs]. My inclination is to just give the additions and try to cobble
together an introductory note explaining what the score is. Any views?
The real problem for me is when the index is next fully released. I can
never get any sense out of editors as to the cost/benefits of running out
the index afresh or amending hard copy and supplying the major riders in
electronic form. The former option is obviously the easiest for me but what
about the rest of the production process? I could just take the line of
least resistance and do what I am asked but I should like to understand. [I
have encountered editors who have never heard of anything but indexes
produced on slips of paper and filed in a shoe box].
TIA
John J
35
Subject: [sideline] Re: pet hate
Date: 09/09/2002 10:07:39
The hell with being politically correct. It is impossible to keep up with
.. and my daughter tells me that it is not even politically correct to be
politically correct anymore. Consider the following progression:
Niggers
Negroes
Blacks
Minorities
Afro-Americans
African Americans
People of Colour
All a politically correct term ever does is substitute for the one before
in a sequence of euphemisms until it becomes politically incorrect itself.
Note also that the time-scale becomes ever shorter.
I also love it when they come unstuck. I did a book on psychiatry of all
things where the writer was as correct as could be - but he still wrote
"Eskimo" which is deeply insulting to the Inuit (meaning "eater of raw
flesh" in Algonquian).
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Re: pet hate
Date: 09/09/2002 12:32:34
I can tell you when you are elderly. It's when you go to the Post Office to
send off a parcel of work and the young woman behind the counter, quite
unprompted, furnishes you with a leaflet about bus passes. Trust me.
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pet loves
Date: 09/09/2002 19:14:07
Those who live within seven miles of Dorchester have all the privileges to
which any human being is entitled and possibly a few more besides.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
In that case everyone in this area is middle-aged and will never get any
older - even finding out that passes are available is more by luck than
judgement, while finding a bus to Dorchester (county town seven miles
away) is almost as rare as snow in summer: two a week (mind you, what
with global warming, snow in summer will probably soon be more common
than buses ...).
Laura
Subject: [sideline] Late/No Payment
Date: 10/09/2002 17:52:55
Dear SIdeliners,
I am wondering whether we do not have an opportunity to do ourselves a bit
of good.
Prompted by Colin's message, but also remembering the Jeeves story where
Bertie Wooster confounds the awful Roderick Spode because he says that he
36
knows about "Eulalie", perhaps we need a central resource about employers
we ought to know better than to work for. [At Jeeves' club, it is a
member's duty to record anything that another "gentleman's gentleman" might
wish to know before accepting employment with a particular "gentleman"].
Might one of us be prepared to act as a sort of a clearing house for the
kind of stories which could deter another of us from accepting an
inevitably loss-making commission? Information to be given and received in
confidence - that is, non-attributable without permission and available
only within SIdeline. Thus, someone might post a general message such as:
"Anything I need to know about Janus?" and they receive the text of Colin's
report and any others filed (with nothing to prevent any another member
contributing on or off the list). It would then be up to the individual
concerned to decide whether to accept an offer of work or not. If anybody
is worried about the laws of defamation it is not actionable if it is true
or if one had good reason to believe it to be true - but better to avoid
personal comment all the same.
As ever,
John J
[Bakcground:
From: Colin Leadbetter <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] [sideline]: Late/No Payment
Date: 10/09/2002 16:13:59
Hi Y'all
Just a reminder to those of you who may have been approached by Janus
Publishing (or the owner, Sandy Leung) that they are notorious for either
not paying invoices or saying that the standard of work wasn't good enough
and offering to pay a reduced sum (usually half or less).
I know that some members have taken a tough stance with him and (I think)
have been paid some or all of the invoice, but not so with me. I turned
down his offer of a 40% reduction, knowing that my work was of a good
standard, and received in return threats to the effect of "I know a rot of
pubrishers, I make sure you no work again!"
So, not wanting to spend any effort or money chasing my invoice, I informed
him that I would be warning subscribers to EDline and SIdeline about him.
So here it is.
Colin Leadbetter
(Haven't had a day without work since the Oriental curse was laid on me.)]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Late/No Payment
Date: 12/09/2002 11:47:42
To defame someone means to lower their estimation in the eyes of others.
Defamation is only actionable, however, if what has been said is untrue or
otherwise unjustified. If you believe that what you say is true and have
gone to some trouble to establish that it is, you are in the clear: it is
"fair comment." [The leading case actually concerns a historian who was
judged not to have gone to enough trouble to establish the facts - there
was material in the public domain which he ought to have consulted and had
not].
The medium of communication is, moreover, irrelevant. A statement is not
more or less actionable in an email than it is in a printed publication.
There was the notorious case of a partner in a major law firm who sent an
email saying, "Can we have a busty blonde this time"" in connection with a
secretarial appointment. The Employment Tribunal did them for sex
discrimination.
I was once a treasurer of a small association. I decided to change
37
accountants. The new accountants insisted on writing to the old accountants
to establish whether there was a "professional reason" for not accepting
the work. No likelihood of being paid is a good professional reason for
declining work. Indeed, it might be thought no more than professional
etiquette to warn each other where such a circumstance might arise. There
would be no point in rogues "trying it on" if they know that they will not
get away with it.
John J
----- Original Message ----From: John Sampson <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 10:53 AM
Subject: [sideline] Late/No Payment
> Hello >
> Ann Kingdom writes:
> > Regarding late payers, etc., Council spent some time last year
> > discussing this and whether to maintain a kind of informal 'blacklist'
> > or information exchange.
Subject: [sideline] Re: SIdeline blockage?
Date: 18/09/2002 09:52:49
And it is also curious that John's message is timed as it is but received
by me on 18 September at 0910 when half-a-dozen other messages written
later have arrived sooner. Is this all part of the general problem that
Christine told us about in a message dated 15 September?
John J
----- Original Message ----From: John Halliday <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 4:05 PM
Subject: [sideline] SIdeline blockage?
> Just checked my email - usually very quiet on a Saturday - and downloaded
> 36 emails, all from SIdeline. They range from one from June Morrison on 3
> September to one from Chantal Hamill dated 12 September. (Well, not
> strictly - there's one from Liz Atkins but I think her computer must need
> its clock setting 'cos hers is dated 2 May 2004......)
>
> Anyone else experienced this?
Subject: [sideline] Re: Sideline - page spans & illustrations
Date: 26/09/2002 14:27:32
>
>
>
>
I'm worried about whether the Chase entry should be 134-138, which
implies that the text covers pages 135-137; or whether it should be 134,
138, which implies that she is getting two separate mentions in this
section.
I think that the answer is in the question because 135-137 *does* imply
that there is material throughout that range whereas 134, 138 tells the
truth: there is material on Chase in those pages and not in the intervening
pages. I'd have trouble persuading myself that anyone would be mislead by
the second solution but I fancy they would be entitled to consider
themselves confused by the first.
This seems to me to be quite a common problem - when additional material
38
(tables, illustrations, etc) has been insensitively placed in the text.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
John quotes from:
From: Elizabeth Atkinson <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Sideline - page spans & illustrations
Date: 26/09/2002 13:54:13
... I have another, related query. There is a doll manufacturer called
Martha Jenks Chase. The text about this lady starts on page 134 (a l-h
page, obviously). Page 135 is a full-page photograph of a doll by
another manufacturer (whom I'm not indexing because they only seem to
get one mention), pages 136 and 137 each contain a full-page photograph
of two dolls by a manufacturer called Bernard Ravca, with both captions
on page 136. On page 138, the text about Martha Jenks Chase continues,
followed by a new heading and text about Bernard Ravca on the same page
I have indexed this thus:
Chase, Martha Jenks 134-138
Ravca, Bernard 136, 138
I'm worried about whether ...]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Structuring days
Date: 27/09/2002 13:22:42
I am thinking of being convicted of conduct tending or intended to pervert
the course of public justice so that I can spend my lunch breaks
entertaining off-duty police women in Italian restaurants. That would have
to beat indexing.
John J
[Background:
The thread was started by:
From: Vicki Robinson <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Structuring days
Date: 26/09/2002 20:26:46
Having indexed not-stop for the last 30 years I have to admit to no
structure at all. I could kick myself now as I've worked all day
everyday (I have even worked the day before my son was born!)...]
Subject: [sideline] Income Tax
Date: 28/09/2002 19:39:02
Dear SIdeliners,
At 0530 this morning I set about my tax affairs and six hours later my
return was in the post. Unfortunately, the F-up Fairy had come to town
again and I noticed subsequently that I had contrived to multiply 200 by
six and get 1800. Oh well, so I have over-stated my income by £600.
Moira, by contrast, is already demonstrating "due diligence" by employing a
qualified accountant. The type of insurance she mentions already exists for
legal expenses. It is important to remember, however, that it is only the
cost of professional advice which is in issue. One cannot insure against
being fined.
Those who need to spend a lot on accountancy services because of the
39
complexities of their own individual circumstances might regard the risk of
a costly investigation worth insuring against. I doubt that it will apply
to many of us (or at any rate, no one I know).
On a day when the Revenue announced a pilot project aimed at simplifying
self-assessment for the self-employed, it's not really likely that anyone
making the little that we make and being reasonably diligent about
record-keeping can expect to be given over-much grief - but see
correspondence around about June/July this year from colleagues who have
had the misfortune to attract the Revenue's attention.
As ever,
John J
PS "F-up" is of course is short for "Foul-up."
> As Derek has effectively changed the subject, could anyone advise me. I
> have just had a letter from my accountant trying to sell insurance
> against the costs of an IR investigation into my affairs, saying that IR
> appear to be doing this more and more, and costs could range upwards from
1000.00 for professional fees for such an eventuality.
>
> Are these investigations getting more numerous?...
Subject: [sideline] Page spans
Date: 30/09/2002 14:35:38
Dear SIdeliners,
I have been reading the correspondence on page spans with as much
bewilderment as the stuff about whether Mrs Currie is considered attractive
and whether anybody in politics has any taste. Happily, I do not feel
constrained to offer an opinion on either of those points.
Now, being a simple soul, I should have thought that a page range of say
25-29 indicates to the reader that there is relevant material on those
pages and, if there isn't, then it's wrong. I'm doing international law at
the moment, so I am used to being baffled, but I am completely at a loss to
understand the advantage of telling a reader that there is relevant
material somewhere when it isn't true ... even if it looks tidy. Can
someone explain please?
TIA
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Bugbear virus
Date: 03/10/2002 11:54:22
Sorry to be more thick than usual but what is it that you get when you do
get one? I mean, what does it say and how do you know it is one?
TIA
John J
----- Original Message ----From: Hazel Bell <[email protected]>
To: SIdeline <[email protected]>; Liza Furnival
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 11:25 AM
40
Subject: [sideline] Re: Bugbear virus
> I've had 5 bugbear messages, but without any attachments.
> Hazel Bell
Subject: [sideline] Re: tax returns
Date: 03/10/2002 16:41:16
Dear Friends,
As between computer viruses, anti-virus software and tax returns I have had
such a day that if I had a cat I should kick it.
My tax return came back because I had overlooked a box on a page which
conveyed absolutely nothing whatsoever to my mind and which did not appear
to apply to me in any event.
If you have the stomach for an online return you are made of sterner stuff
than me but a calendar year deadline seems to make sense because they
appear to send the demands out in early January - presumably after a single
computer run.
Of course, for those of us who fall to be taxed under ICTA 1988 Sched. D
life is altogether more miserable than for those to whom the PAYE regime
applies. If you have alternating good years and bad years, it is inevitable
that you end up having to pay them lump sum arrears in January when you are
having a bad year already - just the same as it ends up them owing you when
you happen to be having a good year. Ca va.
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: Rosemary Davis <[email protected]>
To: SIdeline <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:12 PM
Subject: [sideline] tax returns
Hi All,
If this message seems to fizzle out without a proper ending, apologies Compuserve messages sometimes get truncated on SIdeline.
Was it Derek Copson who mentioned tax deadlines? The Sunday Times Money
section last weekend carried a piece on this. Gist as follows:
1. If you file your tax return electronically, the calculations are done
automatically so the 30 Sept deadline doesn't apply…
Subject: [sideline] Re: Income tax on account
Date: 23/10/2002 12:24:03
Dear All,
John is quite correct about this. The payment on account system is a very
blunt instrument. It would not be so bad if one did earn more or less the
same every year but life is not like that. It seems to be an inevitable
consequence, moreover, that the relatively heavy bills arrive when one is
doing relatively badly. They used to allow you to challenge the payment on
account but it means that you have to be well ahead on your current year
accounts and, you have to be extremely accurate as well. I do not recall
receiving one of those forms this year. They used to come out with the
payment demands in January and July. You should be able to reclaim any
excess payment when the Revenue have agreed the calculations on your tax
return.
41
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: "jsampson-indexer" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 10:35 AM
Subject: [sideline] Income tax on account
> Hello >
> Can anyone direct me to a guide for simpletons on the Inland Revenue's
> practice of charging 'on account'? What are they up to with this? It
> seems to result in a hefty bill one year, nothing to pay the next, and it
> makes budgeting difficult.
Subject: [sideline] Re plain text
Date: 23/10/2002 12:57:43
Dear All,
In the Outlook Express opening screen, on <Tools - Options - Send> the last
of the list of options in the top half of the box is "Reply to messages
using the format in which they were sent". Might this, or something
analagous in other packages, be the cause of the problem?
When in doubt, I click on <Format> before I compose a message - as I have
just done.
Sorry if this has been mentioned before. I have 150 messages unread because
of anti-virus problems of my own which have been solved only this morning.
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: "Gerard M-F Hill" <[email protected]>
To: "jsampson-indexer" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:21 PM
Subject: [sideline] Re plain text
>
> "Plain text font depends only on the setting of the recipient" wrote
> John Sampson and so I thought.
> Alas, I have been admonished for not using plain text on sideline,
> despite having the Properties tick box set to 'plain text' for
> Sideline and SfEPLine, as Auriol described, and for all my replies to
> plain text messages.
Subject: [sideline] iomega
Date: 24/10/2002 15:31:02
Dear All,
Having been persuaded to buy
it is I have wasted my money
backing up my data so that I
catastrophe. Have I got this
is if you save everything as
this Zip drive thing I am now wondering what
on. I had supposed that what it was for was
could restore it in the event of a
right that the only way that you can do this
you go along? Hence, what you have already is
42
a matter of saving it a file at a time until the bank forecloses? Might it
be best to chuck it in the bin and put the whole thing down to experience?
I found a file of computagobbledegook to read. I gave up when I reached the
heading: "Clearing a corrupt librarian." The last time I got cleared, at
least no one added insult to injury by suggesting that I was corrupt as
well. WLTM any indexer who understands anything about this. NS/GSOH. TIA.
As ever,
John J
PS. I don't know anything about these seven-inch Euros of which Vicki
speaks either.
Subject: [sideline] Re: Iomega
Date: 25/10/2002 07:17:18
Thanks to all who have advised me on the Zip drive. I have had a bad week
with information technology.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: sideline: A3
Date: 25/10/2002 14:28:15
Dear All,
It is rather hard to see what advantage the A3 copying of proofs has for
anybody other than that working with it tends to develop muscles in the
upper torso. As between A3 and double-sided A4, however, I am not sure
which I hate the more.
It seems to me to be a matter of the just plain common sense that to work
efficiently one needs single-sided A4. So, how do we accomplish this very
sensible and straightforward thing?
Given the look of reproach on the face of the courier who delivered me
1,650 pages of A4 recently I do not dare consider how Laurence's courier
felt about 1,000 pages of A3.
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: "Laurence Errington" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 12:17 PM
Subject: [sideline] sideline: A3
> There should be a surcharge for handling A3. I'm doing a 1000 pager on
> A3 that involves lots of backchecking (classic example of glad I've
> highlighted entries). The amount of time I've spent lugging up and down
> previously indexed chapters........
Subject: [sideline] Re: Times
Date: 28/10/2002 12:23:48
Dear All,
43
A shot in the foot I'd say. It has been noted before how Dr Watson's wound
from a Jerzil bullet in the Afghan Wars wandered about his body yet, in the
"Hound of the Baskervilles" we find him fit enough to go chasing after
convicts on Dartmoor.
>
>
>
>
`It is a wonder that Conan Doyle was so consistent: like Dickens, he
published his works as serials, and without a card index or
computerised databank must have had a terrible job to keep
track of his heroes and villains.'
I know I'm paranoid but the problem seems to me that when, as a freelance,
one raises a query no one is the least bit interested. This may be because
desk editors do not wish to provoke authors. I have said this sort of thing
before so I'll not dwell on it now but go back to my present book which has
lots of mistakes in it. Each one I shall hold to my heart and know for the
friend it is.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Hazel Bell <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Times
Date: 28/10/2002 11:38:56
The Times today has an article on copy-editing, the decline of (attributed
partly to the use of freelancers rather than in-house `dragons'), inspired
by complaints by Doris Lessing. (`Lessing laments slaying of the
publisher's dragon', page 9) This is backed up by third leader, page 19,
`The book bind' which includes:
`It is a wonder that...]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Page ranges again
Date: 07/11/2002 13:07:59
Merciful heavens! I take it that each report has a headnote which according
to the sages and prophets is supposed to be 95% of the information in 5% of
the text. Only two possible explanations: (1) indexer too idle to read the
whole of the report; (2) indexer incapable of undertstanding the report.
That barristers may have been employed in such tasks is no source of
consolation here. Checked a summary of a House of Lords decision on rent
reviews once. If the barrister were to be believed the landlord was arguing
for a low rent but the tenant was holding out to pay much more. Altogether
improbable.
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: "Maureen MacGlashan" <[email protected]>
To: "Sideline" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 12:21 PM
Subject: [sideline] Page ranges again
> Those of us wrestling with the new CUP procedures continue to find page
> ranges one of the biggest problems. I still find ranges and careful
> indication of the precise page on which a point appears important. But am
I
44
> right to take this stance? The task which is most preoccupying me at the
> moment is the consolidation of the indexes to 120 volumes of law reports…
Subject: [sideline] Re: Page ranges again
Date: 07/11/2002 16:31:45
"Now, I know nothing about law librarianship, but I would suppose that
every time a law firm has to consult a slapdash index, the client has to
pay extra for the time wasted in hunting for the precise reference
required."
Sounds to me as though Christopher has got the right idea though I did once
know a lawyer who never charged for research time because she reckoned she
ought to have known the answer in the first place.
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Empresses
Date: 14/11/2002 12:44:21
Dear All,
On the matter of empresses, etc this gets complicated where the title is in
another language. For this reason alone, I'd run with:
Drusilla the Great (Tsaritza of Tyne and Wear)
That way don't need to worry whether she is mentioned as an empress, a
tsaritza, a czarina or even a kaiserin.
This may even be correct form because Her present Majesty's recital of
titles begins "Elizabeth, by the Grace of God ..."
Where I come unstuck is with the curious custom of the female spouse
adopting the male forename eg Mrs Philip Snowden or Princess Michael of
Kent. As with so much else the right answer may be that there is no right
answer. Socially, should the Queen really be Princess Philip of Greece?
John J
[Background:
From: Christine Shuttleworth <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: incomplete names
Date: 14/11/2002 12:09:56
Margaret Christie wrote:
<More generally, I do wonder about the practice where, say, the text refers
to "Emperor So-and-so III" and "the Empress", and I find out the name of
"the Empress" and put it in (e.g. "Drusilla, Empress"). As a reader I would
find it much more help to have an entry "Empress Drusilla, third wife of
Emperor So-and-so III", but as an indexer I look at this and see bad
practice! What do others think?
You could have a cross-reference, e.g.
Empress of Tyne & Wear *see* Drusilla, Empress,
or if the Emperor is mentioned by name but not his Empress, you could put:
Hilary, Emperor, *see also* Drusilla, Empress
Christine]
Subject: [sideline] Re: biblical terminology
Date: 14/11/2002 14:30:12
45
This could well be a case of "it means what I mean it to mean." The
Mormons, for example, consider themselves "Christians" but would count the
Book of Mormon as Holy Scripture as much as the Bible - albeit it is far
from likely that anyone else might.
The antiphilosophical theology of this particular scholar, however, may be
an indication that to him "Holy Scripture" is only the Bible and possibly
mainly the NT at that. I'd be inclined to assume that what he is intending
to convey is the general notion of what is the Word of God rather than some
specific text. Compare Islam where the Qur'an is the Word of God, as
revealed to Muhammad, but the Sharia also includes the sayings of the
prophet.
John J
[Backlground:
From: Zeb Korycinska <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] biblical terminology
Date: 14/11/2002 13:38:53
I'm indexing a book on translations from Karl Barth. The terminology is
'loose', one might say. What I'd like to ask others on the list is: are the
Holy Scriptures the same as the Bible? Or is the Bible only one part of
Holy Scriptures?
We're dealing with Christian Protestant theology here, so he does mean
Christian Holy Scriptures. There is no mention of the Apocrypha, for
example, so I'm inclined to think that these terms are used interchangeably
but I'd be very grateful for some feedback.]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Being Rude
Date: 14/11/2002 15:26:34
Dear Friends,
I find myself in complete agreement with Laurence ... as so often I am –
and equally as with what happens to those who index all day long, seven
days a week, for the miserable rewards yielded.
So, let us be what my salutation suggests: life is hard enough already.
As ever,
John J
[Baclkground: Presumably this was in response to:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: re: Making a living
Date: 14/11/2002 14:15:38
In article <[email protected]>, Colin Mills
<[email protected]> writes
>Janet Shuter writes:
>>
>>It is a gross breach of manners to correct people's orthography,
>>and it is also a breach of list etiquette, as people were
>>informed only a week or two ago.
I've been corrected publicly on Sideline loads of time and I don't like
it. Once or twice I've been discretely contacted privately about a
repeated errors - I used to misuse an apostrophe in the word <it's> as
in <I liked its colour>.
I'm glad for that. It was written in the most helpful, polite and
apologetic manner clearly letting me know it was not criticism. But the
46
rather snide and public ones I've had on Sideline I could do without.]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Free the Isle of Wight One
Date: 14/11/2002 19:48:06
Where would we be without our very own enfant terrible?
Ainsi soit-il.
[Background:
The thread began as:
From: Ian D Crane <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Free the Isle of Wight One
Date: 14/11/2002 18:04:13
I quite fail to see why Janet Shuter should be receiving all this criticism
when she did not initiate The Situation, but instead drew attention to it
and suggested how it might be handled differently.
I will, if needs be, start A Movement to free her from the unfair, biased
and downright wrong remarks that are being published about her. If that
fails through lack of other support, I will naturally join the mob calling
for her head.
Sincerely
Ian D Crane
Extremely Something
Winchmore Hill]
Subject: [sideline] Grammar and spelling
Date: 15/11/2002 13:17:19
I have contributed to a certain publication and, after I had submitted copy
(which was frankly done at the rush), I looked at what I had written and
spotted a bit of a floater. I didn't do anything about it. The devil looked
over my shoulder and I decided to wait and see what happened. It doesn't
affect such little sense as my contribution might otherwise have conveyed.
As I recall, Churchill was considered too stupid to be taught Latin and
Greek and so experienced a triple dose of English grammar. What ever else
one might say about the man, he sure could write an English sentence. I
suspect that grammar and syntax is capable of being taught. I doubt very
much, however, whether spelling is. As I grow older, so does my capacity to
spell conventionally deteriorate and it was never anything special: it's
just another of my many deficiencies. It should be noted, moreover, that
correct English spelling is highly irregular. For example, the venerable
joke: "ghoti" should be pronounced "fish" ("gh" as in "enough"; "o" as in
"women"; and "ti" as in "station").
As ever,
John J
[Background:
From: Vicki Robinson <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re Grammar and spelling
Date: 15/11/2002 11:41:36
I agree one shouldn't criticise individuals publicly, and I agree that
grammar can certainly go by the board as in conversations, but what I
can't understand is how indexers/librarians can have got so far and spell
so badly (and I am *not* talking about typing errors, which we all make).
Is it an age thing? Are schools so different now that they don't bother
to correct spelling. My own son (now at university) can't spell to save
his life, but I put that down to the fact that he's never read a book (so
47
far as I can see). For example, he texted me he was doing some absailing
and I pointed out it was abseiling (and why - German for 'down a rope')
and he's spelled it correctly ever since - and survived, thank God!
Also I was amazed to see that his university (Exeter) has special people
to help students write essays and take notes - again, unheard of in earlier
days!
If we were in any other profession I wouldn't make such a fuss - what does
it matter if a builder writes out an invoice full of spelling mistakes but our whole aim is accuracy - surely??]
Subject: [sideline] Re: German Indexes
Date: 15/11/2002 21:05:30
"We know that men despise what they cannot understand". [Johann Wolfgang
von Goethe].
<This is a topic close to my heart as I have now had three nightmare
experiences preparing indexes to books with German authors. I have also
tried to tackle the horror story of the International Court of Justice
indexes, with total failure. Michael Robertson's article says it all. there is simply no meeting of minds on what an index is (they seem to see
it as a glorified table of contents, and either don't want any sub-headings
or alternatively want about 6 levels, more or less a precis of the text.);
and also are incredibly offensive about the inept indexing, in one case
suggesting they would get it redone by one of their students.>
[Background:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Parallel text indexing
Date: 12/11/2002 08:45:34
As there has been so much discussion of page ranges in awkward text, I
thought it might be a good idea to beg some reassurance on the job I am
doing at present. I have a parallel text in German and English, and (rather
to my surprise) I am managing to compile parallel indexes on Macrex.
However, as all the German text is on rectos (even page nos) and all the
English on versos (odd page nos) I am slightly uneasy about putting page
spans in the usual way when I know I only mean half the pages in that span.
But if a subject goes over several pages I don't really want to list each
page individually, for reasons of space but also because this also implies
discontinuous rather than continuous discussion, so I don't see what else I
can do. Has anyone done the same in this situation?
By the way, I was hugely relieved to see John Jeffries' engineer's comment
about Windows 98 as our sends out all kinds of error messages, which after
much anxiety we have found it's best to ignore, and freezes up on a regular
basis. Luckily I still run Macrex 6 on my old 586 computer which is utterly
reliable.]
Subject: [sideline] Re: most celebrated index item?
Date: 18/11/2002 08:22:04
It is actually: "confesses putting party before country".
The Gathering Storm (vol.1 of The Second World War) p. 615.
The index entry refers to p.170 where there is an extract from one of
Baldwin's speeches. I should have to say that Baldwin's "appalling
frankness" is arguably more about putting his own retention of power before
democracy. Plenty of politicians of a variety of colours have held on to
power knowing that they would lose a general election if put to an early
test. Churchill, however, actually *denies* that Baldwin was moved by such
48
an "ignoble wish".
Baldwin's point was that a general election in the early thirties would
have given no mandate for rearmament because "democracy is always two years
behind the dictator." Churchill says that Baldwin's views did "less than
justice to the spirit of the British people." Hmmm.
Perhaps this is really a case of "least impartial index entry" or "greatest
distortion of the truth in an index entry"?
As ever,
John
> My husband has just been reading _The Conservative Party from Peel to
Major_ (Arrow Books, revised edn. 1998). On p. 237, Robert Blake writes (re
the 1935 General Election):
>
> ‘It is … true that Baldwin did not, as Churchill alleged in the most
celebrated item in any index of any book, “admit putting party before
country”.’
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1. What is the book? (_Great Contempora
[Backgound:
John quotes from:
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] most celebrated index item?
Date: 17/11/2002 11:50:08]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Re: Unreasonable demands from publisher?
Date: 20/11/2002 11:02:51
I do not know whether Lesley has an admissible claim or indeed whether she
feels she can face the aggravation of pursuing one but it has to be worth a
letter to the Equal Opportunities Commission.
Sexism in the workplace, of course, cuts both ways. I've heard a female
boss slam the phone down and shout at the top of her voice "All men have
problems with their willies." Sex discrimination legislation is
symmetrical: one could still wish it might be unnecessary. I'll return to
indexing EC law in the comfortable and stress free environment of my own
home thanking my lucky stars that I shall never work in an office ever
again.
> Your dismissal to me smacks of one for an industrial tribunal !
[Background:
From: Lesley Dale <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Unreasonable demands from publisher?
Date: 19/11/2002 17:42:45
... Yesterday I was sacked from my part-time job after complaining about my
manager's offensive remarks about women in the workplace (women are
unprofessional for at least one week in each month; more than 4 women
together in the workplace are unable to get on with each other because
women lack the ability to develop the appropriate professional
relationships with each other, etc). Pure coincidence, I was told, that my
performance was found to be 'a disappointment' within 2 weeks of my
complaint being made! So I know how Margaret feels - she should be proud
that she stuck to her guns.]
49
Subject: [sideline] Re: Nobility
Date: 20/11/2002 11:33:20
Dear Friends,.
May I conclude this discussion - I appear to put the dampers on practically
everything - by referring to the piece about Sue Nicholls in the new
edition of the Radio Times?
"but I've never used it - it wasn't given to me for anything I'd done."
She is The Honourable Sue Nicholls.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
This comes from a long discussion, highlights of which included:
From: Christine Headley <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Nobility
Date: 19/11/2002 23:59:29
At 22:14 19/11/02, Vicki wrote:
>Could someone tell me the difference between:
>
> Bloggs, Lady Jane and
> Bloggs, Jane, Lady
>
>
>I used to know but have completely forgotten.
Lady Jane Bloggs is the daughter of Viscount (or Earl or the Duke of)
Bloggs, or was the daughter of a viscount, earl or duke and married Mr
Bloggs. (Lady Diana started off as no more than honourable, but became a
Lady when her father inherited the earldom; note how her sisters are still
Lady Jane and Lady Sarah.) Lady Jane Bloggs of a life peeress is
*incorrect*. Partly because she is, strictly speaking, a baroness and not a
lady at all (though the two interchange in the vernacular).
Jane, Lady Bloggs gets the title by virtue of being the wife of Sir John
Bloggs or John, Lord Bloggs. She is Lady Bloggs to all but her friends.
The sooner the whole lot is abolished the better!
and:
From: John Noble <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] re: Nobility
Date: 20/11/2002 00:15:56
>From a Noble ;-)
Christine says:
>The sooner the whole lot is abolished the better!
You *could* pass a law to forbid the use of titles.
But those who have 'em would take no notice. So, you can then send them off
the guillotine.
As an indexer however, you are still going to have to contend with the
likes of Lady Jane Grey for ever and ever and ever. It is history. Unless
you are going to rewrite it.]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Nobility
Date: 20/11/2002 13:25:40
Alright then. William IV, as he subsequently became, and a bit of a dead
50
loss as kings go at that, entered the Royal Navy in 1779 as "William
Guelph". Even at the time this was considered a judicious move. The present
heir to the throne has adopted the name "William Wales" and I noticed that,
the last time she was on the box, HRH the Duchess of Kent was introduced as
"Katharine Kent."
This seems to me to have much to commend it.
> I'm sure I heard Thomas Pakenham referred to on Radio 4 this morning as
the new Earl of Longford, 'but he prefers not to use his title'. It's
clearly a growing trend.<
As ever,
John J
PS This has nothing to do with indexing either but if any of you who are
learned in history can tell me anything about that Richard Beauchamp who
was Bishop of Salisbury during the reign of Edward IV (1461-83) preferably to his discredit - I'd be both interested and obliged. It's
Beauchamp as in the Earls of Warwick. Thanks.
Subject: [sideline] Re: Automatic indexing
Date: 21/11/2002 13:59:35
Dear Friends,
I did not receive the message - so either it was not our list or someone
knows better than to bother with me.
Having been involved in software selection in the past I did conclude that
the industry tends to be better on puff than delivery. Indeed frequently,
so many highly desirable utilities seemed to be little more than a twinkle
in a programer's eye.
Mind you, the other day I received a circular (in a plain envelope)
advertising videos of a most singular character. I couldn't think of
anything I might have done to provoke its arrival. I don't even possess a
VCR.
As ever,
John J
> When I went to tp://www.syntactica.com/login/login1.htm they seemed to
have a little way to go, though. Perhaps I'll be employed for a while
longer!
[Background:
From: Kathleen Lyle <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Automatic Indexing Service
Date: 21/11/2002 07:51:13
Have I been singled out to receive a marketing message from Ward Johnson or
has everyone in IA got one? The message starts:
The new, intelligent Syntactica Text Analyzer service is about to be
launched on the Internet. It immediately provides intelligent Indices or
Abstracts for User-Submitted documents/books.]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Postal service problems
Date: 22/11/2002 13:08:49
I think that I should be unfair in suggesting that the postal service has
deteriorated significantly so far as my experience is concerned. From time
51
to time, things are a long time in the post and the result is embarassing like a birthday card taking two weeks. I don't think that I should ever
depend upon first class post for something time critical but, certainly in
the last six years, I not aware of anything having gone wrong with Royal
Mail Special Delivery.
Some things, however, are not good:
(1) if there is such a thing as a "second post" it has not happened in
Beech Road, Oadby in the last ten years;
(2) Monday's post comprises second class material which could have been
delivered on Saturday;
(3) one of my neighbours pays extra to have his post by 0830 because, when
the slug is on duty, delivery can be as late as 1430 and it was ruining his
business [NB one is best off with a postie whose second job is driving for
an undertaker - you can be sure to get your stuff early that way];
(4) at major railway termini mail sacks can often be seen having fallen
into
the "four foot" and seemingly with no one sufficiently athletic/energetic
to
recover them;
(5) anyone who has received "empty" mail sacks for postal collections will
have observed that they seldom are empty.
Law firms in the UK use a system called DX (Documents Exchange). It depends
upon one taking stuff to a "box" in the evening and returning in the
morning for the material which will have been delivered overnight. It is
"free" at the point of use. One pays an annual fee on the basis of
estimated volume. There is no reason why publishers and freelances should
not sign up to it but, for it to work, everyone would have to sign up and
two trips a day, every day is onerous. Creaming off the profitable
business, of course, is only calculated to make the Royal Mail service
worse.
As ever,
John J
[Bacgorund:
The thread began with:
From: Liza Furnival <[email protected]>
To: SIdeline <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Postal service problems
Date: 22/11/2002 12:06:34
Is anyone else having problems with items going missing in the post, and
slow delivery times?...]
Subject: [sideline] Payments
Date: 25/11/2002 11:13:15
Dear Friends,
I thought that you would all like to know that I received a remittance
advice this morning from a well known legal publisher. It is in the sum of
£625.64 ... and it is for my flower arrangements. Better pay than indexing
may be?
As ever,
52
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Payments
Date: 25/11/2002 14:32:27
Sue wrote "Do explain further"
It was just to give you a laugh on a very dreary Monday. Although I am very
versatile (I did Father Christmas one year) I do not do flower arrangements
so, why Sweet & Maxwell should want to pay me for them is more than I can
say. I'd rather they paid me for my indexing: indeed, I'd rather they paid
me something approaching the minimum rate instead of what I do get - but it
does not appear to be negotiatable.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Alphabets
Date: 30/11/2002 12:43:25
Dear Friends,
Here is one I should never have thought might get so tricky.
A bunch I work for take the entirely pragmatic view that a dacritical
character has the same filing value as the unadorned specimen. Hence, u
umlaut would file as u. That from German ue is a correct transliteration of
u umlaut only goes to pronunciation. To file it as ue opens up a wonderful
can of worms. For example, the Welsh alphabet has no v - its place being
taken by a single f whereas the soft f sound is represented by ff. With
Welsh words containing a single f it would surely be rather daft to file
them as if they contained a v or ff as if it were f? Even my geiriadur
Saesneg-Cymraeg does not go to those lengths.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re Maureen's book find
Date: 30/11/2002 13:15:10
I possess an 1879 edition of "Enquire within upon everything."
I have just chanced upon the index entry:
"Inflammation of the Brain, Remedy for"
The advice is to avoid excitement, study or intemperance.
The running header on this page is:
"Bottles of brandy are followed by bottles of physic."
So now you know. Don't say I didn't warn you.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
53
All I can find is:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Re Maureen's book find
Date: 30/11/2002 07:34:58
Dear All
The find reminds me of one of the most bizarre reference books ever to come
my way - a mid-19th century French-Swedish dictionary of plumbing terms. It
turned up on our history society bookstall. Half-way through the morning a
gentleman appeared, grabbed it off the table and pushed two pounds in my
hand saying "I've been searching for that book for ten years!". Last seen
departing with a big smile on his face.
Probably an indexer!
Have an amusing weekend.]
Subject: [sideline] Chronological order
Date: 03/12/2002 14:22:08
An interesting point. I have never been a big hand for putting entries in
chronological order for, although it may be a satisfactory conceptual
approach to the subject, it does not seem so helpful from an information
retrieval point of view. [As a side-swipe at tablers, I have never seen the
merit of putting tables of legislation in chronological order - on the
basis that the date is the one thing the punter is least likely to know.
Wish I had a tenner for every time I have had to look up the date of the
Theft Act].
As it happens, I did a job the other week where the various different
aspects of the subject were treated in chronological chunks. As I did it, I
wondered whether I was using date ranges simply because, like Mount
Everest, they were there.
For example:
indexing invective
1603-1752
1900-2002
alphabetical absurdities
chronological conundrums
I greatly fear that I did it that way simply as the line of least
resistance. The job was taking far too long as it was.
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: "Laurence Errington" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 12:57 PM
Subject: [sideline] oder of subheadings
> Imagine a set of entries
>
> antisemitism
> 18th-19th C
> 20th C
> Middle Ages
> (and then other subhe…
Subject: [sideline] Re: Friary/Priory
54
Date: 05/12/2002 14:40:03
Looked up friary in the SOD and got a date of 1538
surprisingly late. Thus, mendicant orders adopting
possibly a late development? Or, simply a place of
where the dossers rested their aching feet after a
which sounds
a conventual life-style
no obvious distinction
hard day's begging?
Looked up priory and found the rather irritating piece of information that
these could be the haunt of "Canons Regular" without any indication of what
such a one might be. Followers of "Time Team" might recall the excavation
in central Coventry (near the 1960s Cathedral) of St Mary's Priory which
was the size of any self-respecting medieval cathedral and seems to be
regarded as Coventry's first cathedral. So, a religious foundation where
the boss happens to be called a prior (or prioress) rather than an abbot or
a dean? And, whether or not a daughter house, potentially a very rich
establishment?
As ever,
John J
[Background:
There were several replies to:
From: Margaret Binns <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Friary/Priory
Date: 05/12/2002 12:51:27
Please can someone with a more religious background than myself explain the
difference between a friary and a priory, with particular reference to
Ireland.]
Subject: [sideline] Schedules
Date: 11/12/2002 15:39:08
Dear Friends,
I have been trying to make sense of publishing schedules I have received
for next year.
These people are ordinarily reluctant to commit themselves as to dates but
strangely firm in their convictions as to the sums of money involved. For
example, "copy due" on a certain journal is stated to be "TBC" (Too Bloody
Complicated?) but I may charge £382.45 for doing it when I get it (same as
this year).
Why one loose-leaf should be priced at a creative £297.55 per issue whilst
another is an unimaginative £100 is more than I can say. Whether spuriously
accurate or anodynely rounded, all these numbers appear to have been
plucked from thin air. No copy dates are ever more accurate than to the
month and, from past experience, I know that even that is fiction.
What is clear, however, is that they have no intention of paying me any
more next year than this year and at rates which yet cannot withstand
comparison with those the Society recommends.
I have sent someone a remote-controlled rat for Christmas (it's eyes flash
red). I am wondering whether, like some rat myself, I am looking at some
sinking ship I may do well to consider leaving.
As ever,
John J
55
Subject: [sideline] Schedules (Starship Bistromath)
Date: 12/12/2002 14:51:04
Dear Friends,
Is it to have arrived socially when Ian has a go at one?
Wild horses would not drag the name of this flower-arranging publisher from
my lips and the remote-controlled rat went to an indexer with a sense of
humour even more perverse than my own.
In Ian's message I first misread "draft" as "daft". No, they are not draft
figures. Whether a day's work or a week's work the money is just the same
and the sum in question has no obvious basis in anything and is not open to
negotiation. Hence, "daft" is the reading with which I'll stick.
One could almost put up with being seen-off from a financial point of view.
It's the being taken for granted that sticks in my craw. So far as they are
concerned, on some as yet unspecified day in the next 365, they expect an
index for a particular title and I have been booked. This is all I shall
get to know about it until the door bell rings and a reproachful courier
stands there with a parcel to be signed for. I remain fixed in my
conviction that a publishing schedule is their sole contribution to
contemporary fiction. Mind you, in former years when they gave precise
dates, inevitably these were "recipreversexclusions" - numbers which may be
defined as anything other than themselves. In other words, the date you
were told it would arrive was the one date upon which it could not possibly
arrive.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
From: Ian D Crane <[email protected]>
To: sideline <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Schedules and Money
Date: 11/12/2002 18:41:46
... John Jeffries is indeed fortunate in having a publisher(s) who lets him
in to the secrets of "The schedules" even if he does not like what he there
reads. But, dare one say it from a distance, they have to put something
in and perhaps the figures that so alarm him are draft figures, preliminary
figures, last year's put in for want of any better and other possibilities.
They should, after all, be budget figures and thus at least they start the
process. By long and bitter experience in Another Place, one finds that
putting in "a figure" does at least
(a) remind people that everything has to be paid for
(b) starts off the concept of a budget
(c) lets other people say "that is far too much/little"
(d) makes oneself think along the above lines
(e) gives them something to start from when discussing/reviewing/defending
the cost of a job
I am all for attacking/maiming/shooting publishers (except the happy
cheerful beautiful ones that provide me with the occasional job) but must reluctantly - spring/crawl to their defence on this one.]
Subject: [sideline] Words
Date: 15/12/2002 11:48:12
Dear Friends,
I am sorely afflicted with a work of sociology which, as well as the usual
range of incomprehensible verbiage, includes two words which have me
56
stumped.
The first is "emic" and the context gives me few clues other than it is
bound to be highfaluting.
The second is "flid" which is clearly a noun applying to people and
probably extremely rude or otherwise offensive/abusive - but I should still
like to know. Tell me tomorrow if it is unfit for the Sabbath.
TIA
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Trendy terms
Date: 15/12/2002 15:25:00
Dear Friends,
Thanks to all who assisted me with my epistemic uncertainties and
ontological orotundities
So far I have clocked:
developing countries
emerging economies
least developed countries
North/South divide
Third World
transitional economies
under-developed countries
There may be some others I have forgotten and, as always in the search for
political rectitude, the use of any one is bound to upset somebody. Among
the more obvious absurdities is that some countries, far from being in a
process of development, are actually in economic tail-spin. North/South
divide, moreover, should surely serve to persuade us that Albania and
Nicaragua are rich countries whilst Australia and New Zealand are
thoroughly impoverished! All it really means is that most people in the
world are skint and what is so new about that and since when did poverty
deserve a fancy label?
As ever,
John
A passing reference to "the South" in a book I am indexing was my first
encounter with this term, which left me, perhaps incorrectly, amazed. If it
is synonymous with economically and/or socially underdeveloped countries,
what justification is there for "South"? One man's south is another man's
north, unless you're at the South Pole.
Naively,
Diana Boatman
[Background:
The quotation after John’s signature is from:
From: Michael and Diana Boatman <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Trendy terms
Date: 15/12/2002 08:48:24]
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: words and Christmas
Date: 16/12/2002 11:56:01
57
I used to live in Kent (years ago). In Tankerton, there was a nice
old-fashioned, 1930s Tudorbethan tea-room. No elderly spinster would have
hesitated before crossing its threshold. It was called "The Gay
Adventure."
I think that it is probably because our living is words that words have
The kind of addiction for us which has been most eloquently expressed
already.
In the same way that we are concerned for higher standard in indexing,
however, perhaps we ought to have just as many views about the language
itself. "Appraised" when "apprised" is meant sets my teeth on edge - even
Inspector Morse did it once. I did read recently of the misuse of the word
"decimated" as a particular hate. Now, Richard Holmes is a military
historian - so one would suppose he ought to know what the expression
means - but he still uses it when apparently intending to convey "total
annihilation/destruction."
As ever,
John J
----- Original Message ----From: "Colin Mills" <[email protected]>
I forget who mentioned recently on list the word "gay" "... none of them
with their true meaning".
Subject: [sideline] Re: North South East West
Date: 16/12/2002 13:06:10
I was going to shut up and do some work but John reminds me of a visit I
once made to Halifax, Nova Scotia. At a loose end, I left the bright lights
and took the ferry and crossed the river. There they speak of themselves as
being "poor", "very poor" or "depressed." It was a poverty I have never
witnessed in my own country - or in Wales.
As ever,
John J
Of course it can be pointed out, and is, that parts of
Australia, and Canada are 'underdeveloped', but the same can be said, and
is, that parts of Great Britain, notably in Highland region and in central
mid Wales have certain aspects that would place *them* in the
underdeveloped
category.
[Background:
The quotation after John’s signature is from::
From: John Noble <[email protected]>
To: SIdeline <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] North South East West
Date: 16/12/2002 12:39:03]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Pickles, Wilfred
Date: 17/12/2002 13:09:51
"He was said to be somewhat stingy in real life."
My brother-in-law cleaned his car and was given threepence (in the old
money) at a time when a boy scout would have expected a "bob".
I lived in Yorkshire too ...
58
J
[Background:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Re accents
Date: 17/12/2002 09:38:52
Dear All
When I taught in York in the 60s a colleague, who came from near Halifax,
often accused Wilfred Pickles and the popular and broadly accented rugby
league commentator (whose name I have forgotten) of adopting an affected
soft southern accent!
and:
From: Ian D Crane <[email protected]>
To: sideline <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Pickles, Wilfred
Date: 17/12/2002 12:59:55
Oi.
Wilfred Pickles (1904-1978) did indeed become a regular BBC radio
newsreader. His voice caused nation-wide discussion, acrimony even from
some people, but he was not "instantly removed"from newsreading and lived
to become known as both a "radio personality" and a recognised character
actor.
Films included: The Gay Dog, Billy Liar, The Family Way, For the Love of
Ada.
Television series included: For the Love of Ada
He was said to be somewhat stingy in real life.
Sources for detail above: 'Halliwell's Who's Who in the Movies' and
personal recollection of the writer.
Ian D Crane
Winchmore Hill (not in Yorkshire, but writer resident there for some time
during WWII)]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Pickles, Wilfred
Date: 17/12/2002 14:48:41
I recall that it was Mabel who presided over what was on the table. I have
often wondered whether that was the inspiration for the candle with the
handle in the gateau for the chateau and the pill from the till making the
drug in the jug ('Allo, 'Allo).
I know that we are all showing our ages dears but how come we remember it
at all? It was the most ineffable twaddle.
My adviser on popular culture has recently explained to me what "dumbing
down" means. Still, unlike Russell Watson, at least WP did not break into
what he imagined to be song.
My adviser is another who happens to inhabit two accentual worlds. She
speaks both Kentish and Oxonian. It is considered equally risible to get it
wrong in either locus.
Still, her day tork proppah loik whar oi can. Oi tork suh noice cuz oi went
ter grammah skewle. Jasper Carrot, eat your heart out.
John J
" I remember it as 'Give 'em the money, Mabel'. I think Mable (Mrs P)
played the piano on the show, or is that my imagination?"
59
Subject: [sideline] Schedules
Date: 19/12/2002 15:19:51
Dear Friends,
Whilst a precarious existence, as I said, I almost prefer the old days when
someone rang up on the Thursday about a job which would arrive on the
Friday. One was curiously in better control of one's own destiny. What I
see now is a situation where people say they are going to send me a job on
some unspecified date in the future and, so far as they are concerned, they
have then booked me body (for what that might be worth) and soul (if I have
one) when ever the work happens to be ready (if ever).
Now, I have about 40 "regular bookings" for 2003 and, before you all say
"bully for you", in total they are potentially worth no more than four long
ones at best and I have no certain idea when - or if - any of them might
actually arrive. This will not sustain my extravagent lifestyle nor keep my
offspring in idleness and luxury. "TBC" is especially wonderful. "To be
confirmed", if that is what it means, is suggestive of a date of some sort
- however speculative - having been mentioned. "TBI" might be thought more
honest: deadline "To Be Imposed." I guess we will all continue to do what
we always did do which is to live on the edge. I have survived yet another
year on that basis and, for this mercy, I feel constrained to be grateful.
Signing off for this year saying: "thank you for your wit, your erudition,
your help unstintingly given and your SIdewise look on the world." Most of
all: "thank you for you good companionship."
As ever,
John J
60
2003
Subject: [sideline] Re: [sideline]: Council survey
Date: 12/01/2003 12:37:01
Dear Friends,
I am in complete agreement with Elisabeth and Tom. There are few who arrive
unannounced and cross my threshold. One does not have to be either cynical
or resident in a rural area to see the sense of being cautious.
"This is a courtesy call ..." What's courteous about it?
"Would you like a free estimate?" Every heard of paying for an estimate?
I am a member of the local Neighbourhood Watch and I should be swift to
make a report of anything I did not like the look. The NW Association costs
me about a fiver a year and I view it as money well spent.
As ever,
John J
PS. A man came to my door and asked whether I would like a free packet of
"Flash". I paused a moment and said, "No thank you - and I don't want a
Kirby vacuum cleaner either."
"How did you know that?" he exclaimed. "I have never worked this area
before!"
----- Original Message ----From: "Elisabeth Pickard" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 11:43 AM
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Council survey
>
> I'm afraid I've deleted the original query, but coincidentally have just
> reached the following item in a journal/magazine aimed at rural dwellers:
> `Bogus energy sales tactics reported'. This is a story in which, under
the
> guise of energy efficiency studies/schemes bogus salesmen were purporting
to
> come from NFU Energy Service, who denied any involvement with this.
> I'd therefore concur with Tom's advice to double-check. Be cynical!
> Best wishes (for a happy and warm New Year!)
> Elisabeth Pickard
Subject: [sideline] Her and She
Date: 21/01/2003 14:20:49
Dear Friends,
I should really like to understand the current fashion for using the
feminine pronoun.
I was quite baffled by a work on homicide where defendants were always
"she" notwithstanding that the same work said that 97% of offenders were in
fact "he". Indeed, it appears that a "she" is much more likely to be a
victim.
61
This particular writer dug rather a hole because part of the thesis was
that the law was "homophobic" (as well as being racist and sexist which, of
course, everything is) and the only case cited involved an Australian male
homosexual.
I should expect this sort of thing in a work of sociology because such
material invariably comprises unmitigated twaddle ... but now I find it in
the otherwise sober pages of the journal "Insolvency Lawyer." It is notable
that in every case there is no need to phrase a sentence such that a
personal pronoun is required at all.
The words of the Interpretation Act are to the effect that the masculine
includes the feminine and the singular the plural. Am I to conclude that
(and it seems like everything) all I read now then only applies to women
and never to men? Que?
Mind you, I once had the misfortune to work in an organisation where even
blowing your nose was probably considered racist, sexist and heterocentric
so it almost certainly pisses me off more than most.
As ever,
John J
PS Sorry to moan but a lot of people are still using rich text instead of
plain text. A rich text message is very conspicuous because the background
screen is either much brighter or alternatively a very murky grey.
Subject: [sideline] Re: glossaries and case studies
Date: 21/01/2003 16:26:34
Dear Friends,
The doings with case studies and the like was a problem to me with work I
did for an outfit which has now gone bust. I do not know whether my
indexing was a factor in their insolvency.
For some reason which was never made clear to me, having an index which
truly reflected all the headings employed in the text was part of the
editorial process. So, I dutifully employed all these "form" headings. I
still doubt whether it was likely to help the reader.
Thus:
case studies
flash cars
Mercedes Benz
and flips.
But ... I only did this for the case study on Mercedes Benz flash cars
itself. Other stray references elsewhere in the text went under Mercedes
Benz or flash cars when and if appropriate/worthwhile/I could be asked.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Re Company Names
Date: 28/01/2003 11:57:59
62
Dear Friends,
I think company names are deserving of a lot of thought and worry because
there are so many opportuntities to foul-up wonderfully. For example, the
Current Law case citator used to mess about with names in a manner
altogether capricious and came up with some particularly absurd results
(including different absudities on different occasions). For example, _AT
&T Istel_ (being a company formed as a result of an MBO following the Rover
privatisation and then taken over by AT&T) was turned into Istel (AT&T) which is silly. It was also clear that who ever did it was not wellinformed on the various European equivalents of Ltd, Plc and so on either.
I have actually seen an entry under K for KG rendered in full
(Kommanditgesellschaft)
The present citator convention is to put what it says on the tin and leave
it alone. There is much to be said for this as what might be thought of as
a single company could be a monumental conglomerate. It once fell to me to
research _Tarmac_ which turned out to be an inordinately complex structure
of more than 400 holding and subsidiary companies. That said, there is a
deal of difference between what is technically correct and what is useful.
I have forgotten what is the correct name of _Air France_ but I know it
starts _Compagnie Generale_ and goes on for a long time. It would be daft,
however, to put anything other than _Air France_ save in very exceptional
circumstances.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Re Company Names
Date: 27/01/2003 06:38:06
Could someone in the know confirm (or otherwise) that the construction
company Sir Robert McAlpine should be filed under "s" and not "r".]
Subject: [sideline] Re: ff [trivial response]
Date: 28/01/2003 13:08:20
Everbody knows that. It stands for "fortissimo" (very loud).
> hope that the reader knows what ff is?
[Background:
From: Tony Hirst <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] ff
Date: 28/01/2003 12:49:36
I've just finished an index for a client, who has now asked me to do a
repagination job for a re-run. Don't worry, the original is from the 60s,
hardback price 75s, so the indexer perhaps isn't around. The trouble is,
the page references are studded with 'ff' references. Apart from creating
immense new strings, I suppose I'll have to insert them in the new index
and hope that the reader knows what ff is?]
Subject: [sideline] Schedules
Date: 28/01/2003 16:31:56
Indexing of preliminary programme
Dear Friends,
63
You may remember me sounding off about regular bookings. Received the
following today:
"We would aim to have a paginated proof delivered to you on Friday 14
February and would need it back sometime on the Monday."
As ever,
John J
PS
Went to the bank to pay unto Mr Brown what is Mr Brown's. Cut my finger on
the brolly and got blood all over the paperwork when I was at the till.
Embarassing but strangely apt.
Subject: [sideline] Moment of Truth
Date: 31/01/2003 10:52:41
Somebody please put *me* out of my misery. I have just seen the expression
"moment of truth" attributed to Jan Carlzon former CEO of Scandinavia
Airlines System (SAS) but it must have been around a long time ... surely?
Nothing in Brewer or the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (1996 ed). Oxford
English Reference Dictionary says it refers to the matador's final sword
thrust in a bullfight - and that does not convince me either.
TIA
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Moment of Truth
Date: 31/01/2003 14:58:03
Thanks to Drusilla and Carol for sparing my sanity and giving me the
satisfaction of knowing that the book is wrong.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
The on-list reply under this subject line was:
From: Carol Gibson <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Moment of Truth
Date: 31/01/2003 11:45:31]
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Printing ink.
Date: 04/02/2003 11:27:42
Why didn't I think of that? Anybody who can use an hp inkjet print
cartridge 20 (hp deskjet 610c, 615c, 640c, 656c; hp fax 925xi, 1020; APOLLO
P-2100, P-2200) is welcome to it. It's only the one but the price they are,
it grieves me to throw it away.
J
Subject: [sideline] Extended Muck-up Lunacy (XML)
64
Date: 09/02/2003 15:56:48
Dear Friends,
I am tempted to offer a cash reward to the person who can (a) identify the
greatest number of errors in the following paragraph and (b) attribute any
meaning to it whatsoever:
"How things changed in the first few years of our brand new century. The
floodgates were opened with the latter day Joshua alias Joschka (Fischer)
and a Jacob alias Jacque (Chiraque) and a lot of fellow travelers eager to
take us into a new Promised Land in which Europe (or at least the bit of
Europe that counts) will have a constitution. Even the Economist, true to
their credo (Simplify & Exagerate) jumped into the fray with their draft
Constitution. And now we have the Convention whose President has not shied
away from naming the European Philadelphia and which in all likelihood will
produce a document in the title of which the word constitution will sure
figure."
It's all very well for you to laugh ... I have 467 pages of it. I am
supposing that "Jacque (Chiraque)" is that Jacques Chirac, the well-known
President of the French Republic.
Here in Oadby it is are not raining.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Execrable Manufactured Lacunae
Date: 10/02/2003 11:26:06
Dear Friends,
I have had a word in the shell-like of someone at this particular press. I
await a response and if there is anything to be accomplished by it I will
communicate in another dimension of cyberspace. To be honest, however, even
had a particularly ruthless copy editor had a go at this text, it is hard
to see by how much it might have been improved. I do not know what it is
about European Law which brings out the worst in people or why there is
such a need to descend into orotund obscurity but there it is. Having tried
and failed to find a German word in a Latin dictionary today I am not
likely to boast about my linguistic competences but I do find that European
scholars who try to write in English often get it completely round their
necks. They have, for example, a particular fondness for "optic" when they
mean "point of view". The only optics I know about are concerned with
dispensing Scotch in those measures the law demands.
Unending is my respect for copy editors/desk editors but they still cannot
make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If it is a flowery flight of fancy to
begin with, a flowery flight of fancy it will remain. It was said of a
Professor of Music in a certain institution that his English was
incomprehensible. This was before it was realised that he could be equally
incomprehensible in at least six European languages.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: sideline: definitions
65
Date: 12/02/2003 11:33:38
Sue Bosanko wrote:
But perhaps I picked the wrong one to do - I've just been told I have
about 1000 fewer lines for the index than expected because they want to
put a picture of a baby on each index page. Expletive deleted.
I recall a posting last year in connection with a cook book where a page of
index had been lost because of the pressing need to incorporate a picture
of a tomato. Babies and tomatoes have this much in common that examples of
each look very much the same as all the others and, that having seen one,
the observer is unlikely to need reminding.
Sounds to me that what is pleasing to the eye of the designer is becoming a
much more persuasive factor in book production than what is genuinely
useful to the reader. The first time I saw an online database demonstrated
was in 1971 - long before the Department of Defense thought of The
Internet. I still do not see how the addition of looniebytes of foolish
graphics adds to the process of information dissemination. I expect
Marshall McLuhan is turning in his grave.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Green Goddess
Date: 14/02/2003 15:31:19
Dear Friends,
Jan Ross wrote:
"So fellow-indexers, stand-up, reach-up, bend-down, sit-down and rotate
your ankles......., but keep moving! I know it's difficult to index and
type whilst exercising, but that seems to be what's needed."
Perhaps Jan, or some other Green Goddess amongst our number, might give us
some regular tips on how not to die of indexing? [I mean as in the occupant
of the leotard not the fire appliance].
As ever,
John J
[Background:
From: Jan Ross <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Dangers of Indexing
Date: 14/02/2003 15:10:43
It's official!
In the Lancet (Feb 1st 2003) there is confirmation of a newspaper snippet I
saw, on the dangers of sitting working at computers for long periods of
time - deep vein thrombosis!
So fellow-indexers, stand-up, reach-up, bend-down, sit-down and rotate your
ankles......., but keep moving! I know it's difficult to index and type
whilst exercising, but that seems to be what's needed.]
Subject: [sideline] Laugh for Radio 3 Listeners only
Date: 15/02/2003 15:18:51
Dear Friends,
66
Those of you who were at work and listening to R3 may have heard my request
played this afternoon. This is more than my sister can say. She settled
down to take in the programme ... and WENT TO
SLEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Helen, my daughter, says that it has ruined her street credibility with all
five listeners to Radio 3 and has copied me in on the following:
"Dear Allegro,
I have just finished listening to John Plummer's motet 'Tota pulchra es'
which my father, John Jeffries, requested for me in the facetious hope
that it might inspire me to finish my PhD thesis on 'Music at the Court of
Edward IV' before he reaches pensionable age. I should now like to return
the favour and request for him the aria, 'Thou art gone up on high' from
the Messiah, not least because I have been somewhat sent up myself. It's
text is quoted in St Paul's letter to the Ephesians shortly before the
instruction in chapter 6, verse 4 (NIV translation): 'Fathers, do not
exasperate your children'; which, I feel, should be brought to my father's
attention.
Thank you,
Helen Jeffries"
So, you see, being a comedian runs in the family.
Subject: [sideline] Indexing government publications
Date: 20/02/2003 12:47:53
Dear Friends,
Once when I was doing a little "practice development", as the lawyers call
it, otherwise known as touting for work, I wrote to the Stationery Office
offering my services as a freelance indexer. I did actually receive a reply
.. saying that all of their employment vacancies were advertised in the
Norwich Job Centre. Mind you, I long ago came to the conclusion that
personnel offices are staffed by those who, between them, have insufficient
intellect to furnish out a squid.
Then again, once with an accounts department, when I challenged whether I
should be obliged to pay for a loose-leaf title I worked on as a freelance
indexer the prompt rejoinder was: "what does that mean?" Now there is a
philosophical question.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re Legal Spellings
Date: 25/02/2003 13:20:24
The defence of not guilty by reason of insanity arises from the case of
Daniel McNaghten who shot and killed Robert Peel's private secretary in
1843.
As well as being a difficult name, the problem is made worse by the
cheerful disregard for the spelling of proper names by the law reporters. I
saw one report where they couldn't even got the name of the judge in the
case right!
67
Then again, I once received a letter where my name was spelled three
different ways and none of them correct. I guess we could have a
philosophical discussion as to whether there is such a thing as the correct
spelling of a name. I assume that one of my ancestors told some timeserving scribe what he thought his family name was and what I'm left with
is what the scribe thought it should be.
J
[Background:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Re Legal Spellings
Date: 25/02/2003 07:42:43
Calling legal eagles.
The legal rules on insanity seem to attract a wonderful selection of
spellings. Can someone help me with the official version. In the past few
months I have been presented with Macnaughton, McNaughton, McNaghton,
M'Naghton and M'Naughton Rules. My reference book (Oxford Dictionary of
Law) gives "McNaghton". It would be nice to go back to the editor with an
authoritatively backed version!
Elderly and confused of Cheltenham]
Subject: [sideline] Re: citation of Saints names
Date: 26/02/2003 15:16:42
"... but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me."
(Daniel 10:13)
Cf
"Go, Michael, of celestial armies prince"
(Paradise Lost)
This leads me to suppose that Michael alone would do. I had a run-in with
an author once (admittedly she was Jewish) who would have no truck with
"St" at all. I was left wondering whether this is some modern fashion. On
the other hand, it must be relatively late that Michael achieves the
honorific and I wonder whether the fact that "St Michael" is so memorable
has more to do with sensible woollens than anything else.
As some of these characters are mythological anyway it's hard to equate
them with real people. For example, George and his famous dragon live only
as artistic representations In any event, I like the approach in Brewer,
against the heading "Saint": "Individual saints are entered under their
respective names". Seems to me to get round the problem of whether one is
discussing an historical individual, a mythological figure or a
representation of either.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
From: John Noble <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] citation of Saints names
Date: 26/02/2003 14:00:39
I am running into a problem over citation of saints names. I am indexing a
book about late medieval England with 100s of artefacts, images in stone
68
and wood, paintings, stained glass...]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: re: citation of saints' names
Date: 28/02/2003 11:25:34
Seconded. Or even a note in SIdelights?
As ever,
John J
PS I referred all this to my religious affairs correspondent who tells me
that "St Gabriel" is a popular name for RC and Orthodox congregations and
especially in North America.. There is one in Hazard, Nebraska, for
example, and not many people outside of Hazard, Nebraska know that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
John Noble wrote, in part
>
> The suggestions I am receiving are all very helpful. I am formulating a
> way through the morass (it feels like one at times), and while some
> items, very few really, will appear as main entries, most will be sub> headings, with some even as sub-sub-headings.
>
> Might I ask that, when you've found your way through, if you have time
> you post a summary of what you did as I think (judging by the answers >
you've had) it would be useful to a lot of us for future reference ...
Laura
Subject: [sideline] Neo-words
Date: 01/03/2003 13:42:12
Dear Friends,
If I can distract you from *passim* for a while, I should be glad of some
advice on hyphenated words especially, although not exclusively, the
neo-words.
The instant problem is a work of many hands where the writers are unable to
agree on usages: eg *neo-liberal* or *neoliberal* and a great many other
inconsistencies besides. And yes, it is a CUP-XML book so there is no way
of knowing what, if anything, the copy editor will decide to do about it.
So, it looks as though I have to make up my own mind.
Fowler is about as much use as Fowler generally is on these occasions: "No
two dictionaries and no two sets of style rules would be found to give
consistently the same advice."
So far as I can see, if there is an accepted principle it is to avoid
hyphens save where they add some meaning. Fowler gives the example "Bach's
200-odd cantatas."
To take up Sue's point on filing order, editors really are no help on this.
I once had a book with a lot of e-words (it was on e-commerce) and, whether
in Macrex one puts *e-word* or *e{-}word* (to suppress the hyphen for
filing purposes), the result still looks equally peculiar. I was unable to
get the editor to recognise the problem.
My inclination is to "regard the hyphen as a blemish to be avoided wherever
possible". Anyone have any better ideas?
69
TIA,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Hyphens
Date: 02/03/2003 08:27:34
Thanks for all the helpful advice on hyphenated words.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] On being literate
Date: 03/03/2003 11:59:20
Dear Friends,
Laurence wrote:
> I think it's a bit arrogant to say that passim ought to be understood by
> users, or they ought to find out its meaning/get an education etc. We
> are not teachers and they are not our pupils. The publishers are our
> customers whether you like it or not, and readers are their customers.
> I'm all for teaching people how to use indexes in schools etc., but
> don't condemn the reader for their deficiencies (I don't think
> publishers will have the time of day to empathise much with you on
> that). Anyone selling a PC and sniffing at a customer who does not know
> what RAM means, telling them to get a dictionary, should deservedly get
> short shrift.
This seems to be a case of getting very much to the root of what we
are/think we are doing. There has been quite a ground swell of opinion/ink
spill in recent years in the direction of the use of "plain English" though it is worth remembering that Gowers first published "Plain Words" in
1954. Clearly the problem has not been cracked in the past half century. In
my estimation, the problem turns upon assumptions and this is the very
devil because what we do all day long has the appearance of secondguessing. Some of us have faced the excrutiating embarrassment of giving a
tactful explanation to some earnest, incipient scholar along the lines that
"Op cit, "Loc cit" and "Ibid" are not abbreviations of the titles of
learned journals. All the same, these unhelpful expressions continue to
inhabit footnotes. I incline increasingly to the view that if you can say
it in plain English in fewer words it is jargon that should be binned and,
if you cannot, it is technical usage which *might* be earning its keep.
Now, where it becomes really difficult is when we assume words convey the
meaning we believe they ought to convey because we think we have made it as
obvious as possible. For example, I once completed a form which demanded to
know whether I had held a British passport for more than five years. Having
held one since the age of 18 yrs (which, alas, is more than five years ago)
I replied in the affirmative. Quick as a flash came the supplementary
question: "what was my previous nationality?" Thus, in trying to be
obvious, we need to ask ourselves whether we actually make ourselves more
obscure.
The world having moved on, I think that it would be really helpful if
someone were to volunteer to summarise the state of play on the use of
"passim", its advantages and disadvantages, and the alternative strategies
available. Not me: I never use it.
As ever,
70
John J
Subject: [sideline] Expenses
Date: 04/03/2003 10:22:11
Dear Friends,
Last year I had a moan about a fixed fee system for loose-leaf works
imposed by a certain publisher which means that what I get is determined in
advance and before the extent/complexity of the work involved can be known
(which could be swings and roundabouts of course).
Now I get this:
" ... I am writing to confirm that all expenses are included in the fixed
fee set for your work on [name of guilty party concealed] products."
I guess that it is a case of like it or lump it but, in my case, I don't
like it.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Loose-leaf Updating
Date: 04/03/2003 12:07:23
Dear Friends,
In response to a request to specify the *fixed fee* for three loose-leaf
titles (which I am supposed to charge but do not know because no one will
tell me) I get this:
"The fees for SML based products will be changed shortly to include
expenses but for the time being pls continue to invoice with any costs
added on."
It reminds me rather of the "Two Ronnies" Mastermind sketch. If there are
others similarly afflicted I should be glad to condole with them offlist.
On the other hand, perhaps it is just not my lucky day.
As ever,
John J
PS for those of you into full Renaissance polyphony with a legal slant what
about these for unindexable concepts?
contrapunctual law
counterpunctual law
couterpoint
Contrapuntal how's your oncle? [Hans Killer, _Private Eye_ circa 1966].
I've known people who are often counterpunctual but never couterpoint.
Subject: [sideline] Not necessarily anything to do with rice
Date: 07/03/2003 10:27:10
71
Dear Friends,
This one I really had resolved to leave alone ... really I had.
I agreed to summarise our conversations for SIdelights. You have not seen
my second contribution and already I have notes on 39 topics for the third.
And it is everything from cats sitting on proofs to the fate of the planet.
Now, either this list is about indexing - with a flexible interpretation as
to what is an indexing topic - or it is everything that we feel a
compelling need to discuss or just tell someone about. There are lots of
things I feel strongly about and other matters where I feel bad for not
feeling strongly enough. Whether you might be interested in hearing my
views or not, I do know that bringing the professional indexers out onto
the streets is not going to stop the traffic let alone the course of world
events. So, we are talking because we find it helpful to talk. I do feel
that we need to agree the boundaries of the conversation. Either we observe
the guidelines, ask for different guidelines or create a different forum
altogether but we do need to decide.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
Anyone wanting to trace this thread to its origins might start with:
From: stephanie johnson <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] rice campaign scariness
Date: 06/03/2003 13:57:03
Hello, received this about the recent rice campaign and thought I'd post it
to Sideline as many of you probably took part...]
Subject: [sideline] Names
Date: 10/03/2003 10:50:09
Dear Friends,
I am doing something at the moment which borders the incomprehensible but
does refer extensively to the work of the great and the good in western
philosophy. I thought I could at least index the names and do something for
my money.
When I see *Marx* it is my invariable practice to go:
Marx, Karl Friedrich
Not that I have had Groucho Marx yet but with the tripe I get it wouldn't
be surprising all the same.
Now I have *Condorcet* and when I look him up I find:
Condorcet, Marie Jean Antoine Nicolas de Caritat, Marquis de
which I would call "over the top."
Now the text just says *Voltaire*, *Montesquieu*, etc and I could merely
follow that. With less distinctive names - like *Bacon* for example - I am
not sure that would be good enough. It looks to me as though I can keep it
simple or be consistent but not both. What would be best practice? Sorry if
I have dug up old ground. TIA.
As ever,
72
John J
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] re: names
Date: 10/03/2003 12:16:26
When I get a chapter which starts "What we need is a metaphysics of
Europe's self-constituting" I hope I may be forgiven for mixing up my
Friedrichs with my Heinrichs. Not that I should ever hesitate to wind up an
old lefty of course
Unless I am missing something here I am less than convinced that the
authorities are helping me. I cannot see a reason why *Voltaire* is OK but
*Bacon* isn't - aside from the fact that Voltaire sandwiches seldom appear
on the breakfast menu.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
John Jeffries wrote:
"When I see *Marx* it is my invariable practice to go:
Marx, Karl Friedrich"
-- well all I can say is I hope you then go backspace and get his name
right! -- or was this just a windup for us poor old lefties?
[Background:
John is quoting Janet Shuter:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] re: names]
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: Re: availability of work
Date: 11/03/2003 11:18:54
.... Now if anyone has any tips on how to find the right person/department,
or to get past the 'full of importance' receptionist, I would be glad to
hear them!!
One thing *not* to do is ring up cold and ask for the identity of the
person who does freelance bookings without at least some previous research.
There was once a salesman who called a small company to discover the
identity of the head of security. The technique is well-known and in
serious disrepute.
This salesman never realised that he had actually found himself speaking to
the managing director. The name of the head of security was given as
"Maurice". By the first available post a package of material arrived
addressed to "Mr Maurice, Head of Security".
Maurice was the MD's Airedale terrier.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
John was quoting:
From: Lynda Swindells <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: availability of work
Date: 11/03/2003 10:44:36]
Subject: [sideline] Sacred vessels
73
Date: 14/03/2003 07:43:08
I am reminded that in the days of apartheid the South African police
confiscated a consignment of Anna Sewell's "Black Beauty". I have no idea
what was in their minds.
But, in a week where I have already demonstrated that I do not know my
elbow from my weekend pass, in an index submitted yesterday, I found that I
had added a paragraph number 9299 when it should have been 929. The heading
...
*Mistake*.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
The thread was begun by:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Re Business
Date: 16/03/2003 03:53:38]
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Sideline: alphabetization
Date: 14/03/2003 16:03:14
So far as I know *The Gambia* and *The Netherlands* are the only two
countries in the world where the definite article is part of the official
name.
In Macrex I tend to put:
{The }Gambia
{The }Netherlands
so that they file with the Gs and Ns respectively but are technically
correct as they stand.
Be interested to know how other people deal.
As ever,
John J
> Opinion please.
>
> Should `The Gambia' be filed under G or T.
>
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Sideline: alphabetization
Date: 14/03/2003 13:55:46
Opinion please.
Should `The Gambia' be filed under G or T.]
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Glimpsing more futures?
Date: 16/03/2003 11:29:11
There is a session planned for the next annual conference of the
International Bar Association on the subject of "biocyberethics" which is
74
intended to address the prediction that computers will achieve human-level
intelligence in the next 10-20 years. Thus, a computer might seek an
injunction preventing others from turning off its power, changing its
programming without consent or causing pain via technical experiments. As
*I* live and breath this is true: I have the provisional programme in front
of me (Shades of 2001 and several episodes of Star Trek TNG)
Life, don't talk to me about life. Loath it or ignore it, you can't like
it.
I think I'll just switch myself off.
As ever,
John J (Marvin)
So far there have been 7 responses to my message of last week; 5 from the
U.S., 1 from 'Oz', and 1 from the U.K.
Ignoring the negative ones (even ignoring them is giving them more
attention than they deserve!), I've learned that there are a few other
individuals/organizations involved in automating further the process of
producing good indexes. I was unaware of these before posting my message
(maybe I'm not forward-looking enough!). These people are approaching the
subject in different ways, and their systems are at different stages of
development. I applaud them all.
The future is where we are all heading. We might as well embrace it, look
ahead, and enjoy the ride!
Nigel d'Auvergne
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: Re: Fw: [sideline] Sideline:
alphabetization
Date: 17/03/2003 08:05:06
In the case of *The Gambia* and *The Netherlands* the definite article with
an upper case initial capital is part of the legal name of the country. In
all other cases the use of the definite article goes to grammar. I haven't
changed my view that in these two cases they should file at G and N
respectively. I wouldn't file them at T any more than I would describe
Greece as the Hellenic Republic (even though the latter is correct legal
form).
John J
> The Cameroons? The CI, The Azores, The Canaries, The Mmaldives....and so
on
>
> Judith Loades
>
> Craig HEATH wrote:
>
> > John Jeffries wrote:
> > >So far as I know *The Gambia* and *The Netherlands* are the only two
> > >countries in the world where the definite article is part of the
official
> > >name.
> >
> > I'd never thought of it in those terms before, but how about The United
> > States of America? The country is thus named, with the definite
article, in
> > both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
> >
75
> > Craig Heat
Subject: [sideline] Former Soviet Union
Date: 18/03/2003 10:25:44
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I know the discussion has been on 'The' but recent books involving China
and Russia have left me wondering how these countries are officially
recognized/indexed. In one book, Russia was referred to as Russia, Soviet
Union, Soviet Republics, USSR and Russian Socialist Federated Soviet
Republic (RSFSR) with only Soviet Republics being singled out as
referring to individual states such as Georgia and Moldavia. Russia was
the name most used so that was my preferred term, but I have no idea just
what area is now 'Russia' and what does RSFSR include? Countries can be a
nightmare!
As it happens, I was thinking about this one myself. For the former *Soviet
Union* my habit is to call it that with a reference from USSR. The former
RSFSR is now the Russian Federation which, together with the other
constituent republics of the Soviet Union, gives us the Commonwealth of
Independent States. I believe that Turkmenistan came over all Swiss and, as
a neutral, may not be in the CIS but I do not know for sure. There are 89
administrative units in the Russian Federation of which 21 are described as
"republics" but only Chechnya gets spoken of much. I think that I would be
inclined to keep *Russia* for pre-revolution material and stick with
*Russian Federation* for recent times. A further problem is the change of
form for some of the "new" republics eg Moldova/Moldavia and
Belarus/Byelorussia. From a constitutional point of view it seems to get
even worse with some republics having had seemingly greater independence
than others. I seem to recall that if even in Soviet times, Ukraine was a
member of the UN (I'm sure I'm not making that up).
Be interested to hear other views.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Berkeley Castle, Gloucestershire
Date: 18/03/2003 12:45:04
Dear Friends,
Unashamedly nothing to do with indexing but about daughter's research.
If anyone knows anything about a book of accounts of the court and
household expenses of Edward IV discovered at Berkeley Castle I should like
to hear about it. I understand that the manuscript had been wrongly
catalogued as dating from the reign of Henry VI.
TIA
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] re: UK
Date: 18/03/2003 14:48:22
76
Welsh, Breton and Cornish all belong to the Cymric language group so
perhaps this affinity may go back even earlier (all being "descendants" of
the extinct language of ancient Gaul). I read that it is quite acceptable
to refer to Breton as a *regional* language. All the same, it is not an
expression I'd be inclined to use of the Welsh language in Ceredigion.
As ever,
John J
>
>
>
>
Bretagne - known to us as Brittany and the place to which large numbers
of Britons fled for refuge from invading Saxons - hence the name.
Needless to say, the Welsh feel a special affinity with the Bretons, and
vice versa.
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: John Noble <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] re: UK
Date: 18/03/2003 14:07:29
Apropos of June Morrison's mail about Great Britain and Grand Bahama. The
meaning of 'Great' in this context becomes clearer if one looks at it in
French. Simply because 'little' Britain is in France.
Bretagne - known to us as Brittany and the place to which large numbers of
Britons fled for refuge from invading Saxons - hence the name. Needless to
say, the Welsh feel a special affinity with the Bretons, and vice versa.
as opposed to
Grande-Bretagne - otherwise GB]
Subject: [sideline] Berkeley Castle, Gloucestershire
Date: 18/03/2003 17:23:41
Dear Friends,
There is a theory that if one combines what one knows with what another
individual knows then what both come to know is the square of what either
knew before.
Works with SIdeline. Piece it all together and you don't half learn a lot.
Thanks to all.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Homage to Catalonia
Date: 21/03/2003 12:03:28
Dear Friends,
I am struggling a bit with what I take to be Catalan naming conventions
but,for all I know, they may be no different from elsewhere in Spain.
For example, Nuria de Gispert i Catala (I have missed off the acute accent
from the u and the grave on the last a) Is it:
de Gispert i Catala, Nuria ?
Found that Manuel Duran i Bas seems to be
77
Duran i Bas, Manuel
but, confusingly, he can also be referred to simply as *Duran*.
Be glad of some advice. TIA
John J
Subject: [sideline] Stories
Date: 29/03/2003 13:15:44
Dear Friends,
I did a particularly outrageous piece of sociology earlier in the year
which consisted of theoretical analysis interspersed with real or (more
likely) imagined dialogue which was evidently intended to exemplify those
theoretical points under discussion. Some of you were able to help me with
what "flid" meant - much of the rest of the vocabulary was unpleasantly
familiar.
I now have a work on public administration which follows the same style
though the language is less emetic. The hard part is knowing how to index
it. With the last one I decided to ignore the "stories" even though the
author clearly thought this was the crowning glory of his methodological
achievement.
Is this some new trend or do I just get unlucky? If anyone else has
encountered this approach I'd like to know how they dealt with it.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Spam
Date: 12/04/2003 08:57:46
SIdeliners who missed the story might like to know that the Government will
be consulting on measures to strengthen privacy rights in respect of
electronic communications in order to control unsolicitated emails [said to
be 40% of global traffic].
See DTI Press Release P/2003/188.
As ever,
John J
Subject: [sideline] Nutmeg
Date: 18/04/2003 12:42:31
Other than the fruit of the evergreen Myristica fragrans, can anyone tell
me what a *nutmeg* is please? Times are hard and I'm doing a book on
football.
TIA
As ever,
78
John J
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Nutmeg
Date: 18/04/2003 13:45:10
Thanks! Glad to know that I'm not the only one working.
J
[Background:
From: Anne McCarthy <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Nutmeg
Date: 18/04/2003 13:00:22
As I understand it, to kick the ball between the legs of the opposing
player - but there are those better informed than I, I am sure.
And Tony Hirst agreed]
Subject: [sideline] Re: repagination
Date: 28/04/2003 10:47:40
I think that the biggest problem with this is purely commercial. It is when
the commissioning editor thinks that the changes of substance are not great
so it cannot be much work ... can it?
So far as I can see, jobs are only truly a matter of repagination in the
case of some late change to proofs such that global changes can be made
using an indexing program (eg: an extra page at the end of the introduction
giving rise to an increment of one throughout the remainder).
It is hard enough tracking changes with marked-up copy (in other words,
where one has *both* the deletions and the ridered additions). And, it only
works then if the index is to paragraph numbers and one has a version of
the index which can be searched electronically - for the locator not the
subject.
Where the idea of working on a new edition as an exercise in repagination
really falls down, however, is because it is highly unlikely that any two
indexers will approach the same task in exactly the same way. One of my
desk editor colleagues, who is not just excellent at her job as an editor
but took the trouble to qualify as an indexer too, made some late changes
to an index of mine - to save time. What was truly remarkable was that she
told me she had done it. As I recall, of the ten necessary changes, she had
identified five.
I wonder whether *I* would ever approach a second edition in exactly the
same way as I did the first of a few years before.
Even in the case of one of my own, where I had archived the previous index,
I doubt I should look upon it as any more than a guide as to what to expect
and as the beginnings of a plan for the new project.
As ever,
John J
>
>
>
>
>
Hello all. I know
anyone offer some
doing an index to
and has also been
Is it the general
this is a subject that has been covered before, but can
general advice on repagination? I've been offered a job
a new edition of a book, that has three new chapters,
re-typeset, so the existing index will need repaging.
concensus that it's better to just start from scratch?
79
>
> Thank in advance
>
> Steph Johnson
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re Repagination
Date: 28/04/2003 12:55:17
I forgot the very thing which was under my nose. My next task but one is a
second edition. It looks as though the total extent of the first was 252 pp
but the second is stated to be 384 pp. Guess how many extra pages I am
allowed for the index? Yes, that's right: *none*. Best of all, I am
instructed that the index should be *comprehensive*. I did mention that
this means the instant index is going to be even more sketchy than the last
...
but the commissioning editor has spoken.
As ever,
John J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dear All
I suspect that, like the majority of the slaves out there, I find
repagination jobs tedious and frustrating. If I accept them (and "three
new chapters and retypesetting" sounds rather familiar!) I always warn
the editor that I charge on a hourly basis for repagination and that it
may add up to as much as commissioning a new index. The last one I did
only took 2 hours, whereas one last year took over 60. You cannot tell >
until the proofs are compared with the original, and some editors seem to
make light of what turn out to be substantial changes.
Regards
Derek Copson
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re Deliveries
Date: 07/05/2003 15:58:32
I did once receive a package of work on, as it might have been, the 7th May
with a covering letter, dated some two weeks previously, requesting that
the work should be returned by the 7th May. My panic telephone call was
greeted with a very semi-detached response. It turned out that the despatch
department had been on holiday.
Ainsi soit-il.
As ever,
John J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dear All
Not of the natal kind but the --------- courier variety. I have just
received a package dispatched by courier from London 12 days ago. As we
only live 100 miles away I reckon I could have walked there and back a
lot quicker.
Anyone beat that for deliveries?
Regards
80
>
>
>
>
>
Derek Copson
PS Note to a certain courier company (final Greek letter comes into it
somewhere) - you do not spell our great and glorious county
"Glowlestershire"!
Subject: [sideline] On being a smart ****
Date: 08/05/2003 10:59:03
Dear Friends,
I do not know why I do this when it is my experience that academic authors
do not like being corrected but I have done it again.
I find a section heading, "The dog that did not bark" and, in the text, "As
Sherlock Holmes remarked in The Hound of the Baskervilles, the fact that
'the dog did not bark' may be in itself remarkable".
To spare anyone looking it up, the true quotation is:
"Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time"
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
"Silver Blaze" *not* "The Hound of the Baskervilles". Do you think that I
may have released the dogs of war?
As ever,
John J
PS "****" is, of course, the official abbreviation of the Australian
Research and Scientific Establishment.
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Re: Re Deliveries
Date: 08/05/2003 17:01:13
Nah. Dat's jist frogspeak.
> ......I fink your email is getting corrupted a bit
[Background:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
To: Multiple recipients of list <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: Re: Re Deliveries
Date: 08/05/2003 09:12:11
In article <000a01c314aa$d727a000$1b3d893e@pc>, John Jeffries <John@jeff
riesj.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
>
>Ainsi soit-il.
.....I fink your email is getting corrupted a bit]
Subject: [sideline] publishers, don't you just love 'em!
Date: 12/05/2003 17:00:16
.. "you have now lost your landing slot, and will have to keep circling
until one becomes available"
I wish, I wish.
Received a job from a place known to some of us as the "Chicken Ranch". It
was last Wednesday afternoon (1415hrs). No notice of course. Instruction
was to return by today (Monday). On Friday, received this email message:
81
"Can you tell me when the earliest you can do the index by? If you could do
the June index first and send me this as soon as its ready with the annual
index following asap."
How "asap" does "asap" get?
And this I do for 2 x £62 (non-negotiable fixed fees).
Now I have a very good story about customer services and the Aer Lingus
check-in desk at Dublin airport but there can surely be no way that the
List Owner would ever let me get away with telling you ....
As ever,
John J
[Background:
From: Jan Ross <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] Re: publishers, don't you just love 'em!
Date: 12/05/2003 15:54:37
Moira:
>are now scheduled to arrive on 2 June, 2 June, 2 June and 2 June. And they
ask sweetly if that will be alright
To which you responded sweetly " you are now in a queue, please hold the
line " ..
or .. "you have now lost your landing slot, and will have to keep circling
until one becomes available"]
Subject: [sideline] Fw: [sideline] Re: indexing of author citations
Date: 13/05/2003 15:16:18
"My preference with this type of book would be to index those authors whose
work is discussed but not those given a passing mention of the '(see also
Brown, 1998; Smith 1987)' variety, since they can be found in the Bibliog.
notes."
I should be bound to say that this bothers me a lot and is certainly a
problem with what I have in front of me at the moment. For example, one
might have a substantial treatment of the singular contribution to the
field by Snoot and Scrantlinghook and, subsequently, what appear to be
passing references to the work of these outstanding scholars here and
there. On the one hand, it almost seems perverse to index the first but not
the others.
May be the decision should turn on whether the work of Snoot and
Scrantlinghook is actually a subject in its own right (write?) and
generally referred to and known by their names. Equally, one could trip up
over what, in all conscience, look like passing references but on such a
basis are actually altogether more significant. In similar vein, what does
one do with things like a treatment of "Weberian bureaucracy"? The fact
that I know that it is a reference to the work of Max Weber doesn't help me
(and it is just the sort of thing which would *not* be supported by a
footnote/endnote/bibliographic reference). It is not always obvious what is
a "term of art" and that an author thinks one is does not necessarily make
it so. A worse case might possibly be "Cartesian" with no explicit mention
anywhere of Descartes. It's all very well to say "sling in some references"
but the chances are, with many of these projects, that one is strapped for
space already.
Any editorial imput with this type of conundrum is likely to stem
ultimately from the author. Some of them seem to think that every infernal
82
proper name in the text should be indexed - but that is to trespass again
upon old ground.
As ever,
John J
[Background:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] indexing of author citations
Date: 13/05/2003 07:41:40
Hello all, I would appreciate any advice you have to offer on the
following.
I am working on a book on the scientific method/philosophy used in
sustainable development projects. The writers frequently cite the work of
others and are scrupulous in attributing it by name or names (and often the
sponsoring organisation as well). Several passages are quoted verbatim.
Some, but by no means all, are referenced to bibliographic notes at the end
of each chapter. I have been told that I do not need to index these notes.
This is the first time I've been given anything in this particular style
and I'm unsure in how much detail to index the names that appear in the
main body of the text. What do other people do in these circumstances?
and
From: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Re: indexing of author citations
Date: 13/05/2003 08:03:26
My preference with this type of book would be to index those authors whose
work is discussed but not those given a passing mention of the '(see also
Brown, 1998; Smith 1987)' variety, since they can be found in the Bibliog.
notes.
But the author/publisher may have other ideas - some want every name
indexed, however peripheral; others (mainly publishers) want only major
authors listed - it's worth checking with the publisher.
Hope this helps.
Meg Davies]
83
2004
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [sideline] Re: Money!
Date: 19/11/2004 13:49:39
John Jeffries, who is no longer on Sideline has asked me to post this
message for him:
>Dear Laurence,
>
>I wonder if I can ask you to do me - or to be exact a colleague - a
favour?
>There is someone out there expecting 1,200 pounds from Butterworths which
>has actually been paid into my bank account (on 16th Nov). They may well
>have received a remittance advice. Could you post a message on SIdeline
>asking anyone in this situation to contact me? I'm trying to establish
>contact with the Butterworths accounts department but have not yet
>succeeded. Thanks.
>
>
>As ever,
>
>John
84
2006
[Note that John posted from [email protected] between 2002
and May 2003, re-joining SIdeline in 2006 from [email protected] –
BJ]
From: john jeffries <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
[the above details subsequently omitted]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] IA subject specialisms
Date: 18/01/2006 13:12:33
There are those who consider "1066 and all that" to be a profound work
of history.
Never more did I reflect upon the limitations of the language, however,
than this week when I received a bunch of stuff, over several kilobytes,
from a Belgian author which begins, rather unpromisingly:
"Perhaps I could try to explain through a few examples the principles
which I have presided to my choices".
One of the more priceless examples of the way in which she has presided
to her choices is:
"I have added headings for expressions that someone who has read the
book may have been struck with and would like to check later on e.g
Modern Times, sandbag."
I doubt not that we do indeed live in Modern Times and, albeit that my
Ingleesh she is not so well, and my French far from robust, assuredly a
sandbag has been applied to my index if not my person. I should add, in
this context, the author considers that "sandbag" is a useful concept
within the field of "human rights".
I'm going to form a society for the promotion of sandbags. The sandbag
has long been discriminated against, undervalued and denied access to
its full civil and political rights.
John Jeffries
-----Original Message----Sent: 18 January 2006 12:31
Subject: [SIdeline] IA subject specialisms
I've just had a brief look at the form for IA 2006/2007 and I'm
concerned about the new subject specialisms list. By following the BIC
subjects, it is using something designed for sales reps and those who
(such as WH Smiths) shelve '1066 and all that' under history. Yes, some
publishers put the classification on the book jacket, but the editors
we're working with are unlikely to be involved in jacket design. And we
don't just work for publishers any more, do we?
BIC compilers must be the last remaining people in the world who use the
term 'handicrafts'! Plus the BIC splits crafts into things made, which
go into art or antiques, and their making, which goes into the dreaded
handicrafts. This would mean that books about Bernard Leach pots would
go into either 'art/art history' or 'antiques and collectables'
depending on the treatment, while his famous work 'A Potter's Book' would
be considered handicrafts. And why is photography separate? Yes, I
know all classification divides as it collocates, but this is daft. I
also know how difficult it is to come up with a classification scheme
for IA, because I've done the work in the past.
85
We also seem to have lost all the useful subdivisions that we had last
year, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who will regret that. If
we're having a web-only version, then the limitations involved in
producing a printed version simply do not apply. Those of us who are
also SfEP members know that we get 20-odd subjects specialisms and
sub-specialisms in the directory - in the printed form as well as the
web version. And please don't go on about mentioning subjects in the
text allowance, because with the SfEP directory you get that too. Surely
we can at least match their standards?
We're probably stuck with it for this year, so before filling in our
forms, could we please see how the complete subject guide will appear in
IA, with all the cross references? For example, will people looking for
yoga be sent to 'health & family' or 'life skills/personal development'
or 'mind/body/spirit'? Will it include all the expressions that real
people use, such as DIY, interior design, pregnancy, childcare,
textiles, painting, etc etc etc?
Sue Bosanko
Subject: [SIdeline] Being politically correct ...
Date: 26/01/2006 14:25:12
Hello,
Writers of the Islamic persuasion invariably refer to the Holy Prophet
with the addition of "(peace be upon him)" often abbreviated to
"(p.b.u.h.)". I'm a born-again atheist myself, and I wouldn't know
whether the abandonment of the exhortation is offensive or not. Any
views?
Thanks,
John Jeffries
PS
In the interest of maintaining balance:
"Free societies are hopeful societies. And free societies will be allies
against these hateful few who have no conscience, who kill at the whim
of a hat." George Doubleyuh Bush.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Being politically correct
Date: 26/01/2006 16:40:32
Thank you ... Interesting.
"Compassion must be administered equitably for all without any prejudice
whatsoever." Ali Ibn Abi Talib (4th caliph).
J
-----Original Message----Sent: 26 January 2006 16:28
Subject: [SIdeline] Being politically correct
I would imagine only if you yourself are a devout Muslim and keen to
demonstrate the fact. Then again, as a professional indexer you should
be neutral in your interpretation of the text no matter what your views.
It could be taken to ridiculous levels by finding yourself obliged to be
PC to the leading figures in every other religious or quasi-religious
86
group and wish peace upon them too, no doubt to mixed reactions.
I have heard Muslims speaking to a group on their religious beliefs,
using the PBUH constantly and without affectation, but there was no
suggestion that they expected their audience to do likewise. I therefore
assume that it is solely a term of respect they use in conversation.
Bill Jack
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] What do we do?
Date: 02/02/2006 07:12:15
When I changed my household insurance, from my description, the
salespersom decided that the work I did at home was "clerical". Sad or
what? Conversely, for my motor insurance, when I told them I was a legal
indexer the documentation came back with "solicitor".
John Jeffries
-----Original Message----Sent: 01 February 2006 23:12
Subject: [SIdeline] What do we do?
I have just been trying to get an online quote for car insurance and
after spending about ten minutes filling in details of myself and the car I
was asked to select my occupation from a list. This always causes a bit of
a dilemma, but this was the longest list I have ever come across, with
every job you could think of, and a huge number you would never think of,
but no indexer.
If I was an induction moulder, a lampshade maker, a kissagram person, a
lawnmower repairer or a pearl stringer I would be fine. There were nine
jobs listed under fish - fish filleter, fish fryer, fishmonger,
fisherman, etc, etc. The best I could come up with was editor (or editorial
assistant or editiorial consultant?)
What do other people do when faced with this problem? And please suggest
ways the Marketing Committee can try to educate the world at large about
what we do.
Margaret
Subject: RE: [Sideline] SMI Selective Minds Infotech
Date: 02/02/2006 14:36:55
I was once asked to index a sample chapter as a piece of marked homework
to establish whether I was worthy of a particular commission. I haven't
had my homework marked since leaving library school in 1970. It is
something I have put behind me. On such occasions, I'd be disposed to
think of monkeys ... and where they stuck their nuts.
John Jeffries
I am also interested to know whether being asked for samples is the new
trend. What does a sample index, without the text indexed, show anyone?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing brief
Date: 02/02/2006 15:22:22
Some time today I'll very likely shut up and do some work. It could
happen ...
I am glad that Jill has brought this out into the open. I'm feeling
rather battered and bruised myself. I've had some work comprehensively
87
trashed by a pair of academic editors of a collection of papers for
"inconsistency". I should explain: if one indexes a concept where it
receives major treatment, but not the passing mentions, therein lies the
sin of inconsistency.
The problem
house style
like it, it
indexer has
compliments
compliments
is that publishers won't back us up even so far as their own
is concerned. If the Great Panjandrum, the author doesn't
can only be because the ignorant, miserable and worthless
got it wrong yet again. One may feel chipper for
- when they arrive - but, increasingly, I feel that their
are as valueless as their criticisms.
John Jeffries
-----Original Message----Sent: 02 February 2006 14:56
Subject: [SIdeline] Indexing brief
I find detail in indexes, medical indexes in particular, a constant
problem. I try (!!!) to produce a sensible, usable and concise index but
sometimes am told I have 'missed' entries. I've just had this message
from a publisher:
"if indexing major mentions then please make clear at the top of the
index. Sometimes "in passing mentions" are not covered in indexes and
the author complains that it is not thorough, so please cover on that
point".
My attempts to explain "passing mentions" or "indexing information and
not words" seem to fall on deaf ears. Would also like to know what
others feel about differentiation of page references to major coverage
of a subject?
Jill Dormon
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing brief
Date: 02/02/2006 15:58:30
Alright. I'll give up doing any work today. What's the point in any
event? I resigned my fee on the last load of nonsense I was that angry.
Do you remember the mad Belgian woman I was telling you about?
Her idea was that I should index every name in every footnote
notwithstanding that she did not see her way clear to entering such
cited work in the bibliog! Not only that, the East Anglian Institute of
Advanced Circumlocution Press don't have footnotes indexed anyway. But,
guess what? I've still got to do it.
I cannot see what benefit these blighted books bring to anyone. Alluding
to an earlier thread, a near and dear relative of mine says that I
index books - and some of them are very weird indeed.
John Jeffries
-----Original Message----Sent: 02 February 2006 15:39
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Indexing brief
Like Jill and John, I have had two similar complaints from authors in
one week, as many (honestly) as I can remember having in total up till now.
A specific comment from two other authors recently has been that I
didn't index the bibliography. Not cited authors appearing in the text, but
the "list of suggested further reading" type of bibliography you may get at
the back of a book. Is it just me, or do the rest of you index each and
every author in this? I can't see what benefit this brings to the reader.
88
If this, and indexing passing mentions, is being expected by authors, do
You think it is related to how we are now so used to doing word searches of
PDFs, web pages, etc, and people have lost an understanding, if they
ever had it, of what an index is?
Yours bruised
Caroline
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing brief
Date: 02/02/2006 16:27:48
And, it would not be sycophantic were I to say that, should it happen to
Maureen, may heaven help the rest of us.
Comrades! Feast your eyes on this:The authors saw:
Acquisitions, market share 22
which they wanted presented as:
Acquisitions,
market share 22
And from which they concluded:
"There are odd juxtapositions of categories and topics (for example
'acquisitions' and 'market share' together) as though indexer did not
know much about the topics within the subject."
Never thought my professional reputation would collapse in ruins because
a computer program didn't throw a line feed. [It was a discussion of the
advantages of acquiring a business in order to increase market share].
The bad news is that the shitehawks could ruin us.
John Jeffries
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: Indexing brief
Date: 03/02/2006 16:37:18
I should like to thank colleagues for many helpful and supportive
comments these past couple of days - all of which reminds me why I
should and do pay my dues ... now where did I put that form?
As ever,
John Jeffries
Subject: [SIdeline] Quotation marks
Date: 06/02/2006 12:00:12
Aside from the Sweet & Maxwell policy of requiring additional terms to
be enclosed within quotation marks in their Legal Taxonomy indexing and
the obvious point that their use should not affect sorting, have we any
views on the use of quotes?
I've just found myself putting a term in quotes and I'm wondering why I
did it. The plain answer, of course, is because that is what the author
has done. Another book I indexed recently described this usage as
(forgive the quotes) "scare quotes" - which I take to mean an
89
implication that the expression carries more weight or conveys more
meaning than it actually does. I dare say that this may well be another
incarnation of the well-known phenomenon of bullshit baffling brains. In
other words, the author hopes it will appear more impressive and
striking than it might otherwise unadorned. A parallel might be the
rather silly gesture sometimes seen on TV of a speaker twitching two
fingers of each hand to imitate quotation marks around a perfectly
commonplace expression.
Does it help to use quotes or is it merely colluding with an affectation
- and no use to anyone?
Thanks,
John Jeffries
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Charging by Hourly rates
Date: 08/02/2006 13:23:07
What larks! That's what I should do. Yes I know that Macrex tells the
time but I get up to answer the phone, make some coffee, put stuff on
the bird table and so it goes on. Main thing is that with a page rate,
how fast/hard I work - or not as the case may be - is my own affair: so
much less stressful.
John Jeffries
In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>
I accept an hourly rate if that is what the publisher is offering, but I
keep no record of time spent and invent a suitable number of hours based
on what I decide is a fair page rate.
I think publishers are mad to offer hourly rates, as the indexer has no
incentive to work efficiently.
Janet
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Copyright / moral rights
Date: 20/02/2006 10:58:12
The very first job I ever got came with a copyright assignment form.
With that particular publisher a separate form was required with each
commission. My personal view is that, when I have been paid for doing a
job, the process of alienation is complete and what happens to the work
after that is of no further interest to me. All I really do is sell my
labour. It had never even occurred to me to suppose that any moral
rights might subsist in an index but it is difficult to imagine
enforcing them and for what purpose.
Be that as it may, so far as the instant agreements are concerned, I'd
be inclined to question whether they are void for uncertainty since, by
their very nature, they must relate to indexes which have not been
compiled for books which have not yet been written - or for that matter
even thought about.
John Jeffries
-----Original Message----Sent: 20 February 2006 10:00
To: Sideline
90
Subject: [SIdeline] Copyright / moral rights
Opinions / advice please - from SI's collective wisdom on the following:
I am being asked by Blackwell Publishing to sign an agreement in which
the Supplier (aka the indexer) agrees to:
- assign to Blackwell all present and future copyright...
- waive all moral rights (if any) to be identified as author of the
work and to object to derogatory treatment of the work...
In the past, I tried arguing with Wiley about a similar agreement...and
did not win. The reply was "we can not use your work without your
signing the form" of which the relevant wording was: "6. The Supplier
acknowledges that any copyright or other right subsisting in the
products of any of the services provided hereunder shall belong to the
Publisher absolutely, and hereby assigns to the Publisher the entire
copyright and all other rights of whatsoever nature in and to all the
products of the services provided to the Publisher throughout the world
for the full period of copyright. The Supplier accepts that the
Publisher may need to make changes to the products of the Supplier's
service to fully exploit its rights in and to such products in all
media."
I have the feeling that I shall have to sign the Blackwell agreement or not get any work from them - unless someone has alternative advice.
Many thanks for your views
Paul Nash
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: copyright/moral rights
Date: 20/02/2006 13:16:50
I was using the term "alienation" in its legal and I believe strictly
Marxian sense. In more words: once I have done it and sold it, it isn't
mine any more - it belongs to the person to whom I sold it. They paid
good money. W.A. Mozart and Claude Monet were in the same business albeit my accomplishments, such as they are, are considerably more
humble.
John Jeffries
I find it extremely sad that anyone should think that something they
Produce - be it indexing or brain surgery or plumbing - using their brains,
skill and imagination is so worthless that they just want rid of it as
soon as they've completed it and been paid for it.
Sue Bosanko
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Faith communities
Date: 23/02/2006 18:55:28
I've declared my present convictions - though it might be considered
interesting to note that my daughter - sea-green incorruptible, C of E finds my easy-going tolerance thoroughly exasperating. So far as my
previous convictions are concerned, I was brought up in the bosom of the
Established Church and thought that denominations related to groups
within Protestantism. Certainly not Roman Catholics - who were
dangerous, subversive and probably Irish to boot (notwithstanding I have
Irish Catholic kin).
Sounds to me that that "faith community" is a transient political
rectitude. If one speaks of "religion" that implies difference but, if
we are all members of faith communities then we are united notwithstanding the fundamental rifts which actually divide us. I've got
a fiver which says, in five years time, some new euphemism will have
been coined and washing about in newspaper currency.
91
All of which brings us back to the question of whether there is any
useful terminology here waiting to be found. I'd say, if it is "Elim
Pentecostal", "Seventh Day Adventist" or "Wee Free" say that. If it's
more general than that it's "Christianity" and if it's more general
still then it's "religion" and so forth: whatever is going to help
someone. Almost all recognised world religions have a staggering number
of sects, off-shoots, movements, denominations - call them what you
will. I remember reading that there are probably at least 2,000 to be
found in Europe alone. Anyone who thinks that Judaism is a single,
united and monolithic faith could do worse than dig out a copy of the
"Jewish Yearbook" and we have an on-going situation as to any pretence
of unity within Islam.
John Jeffries
-----Original Message----Sent: 23 February 2006 15:39
Subject: [SIdeline] Faith communities
I read that 'faith communities' is the term now preferred to
'denominations', in religious studies texts. Can anyone tell me if
it's direct synonym, or does it encompass more than 'denominations'
did?
Linda Sutherland
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] advice needed for indexing times
Date: 09/03/2006 13:00:57
Not only that, I think it is all too easy for the brain to slip into
neutral with a repetitive and tedious task giving rise to the most
horrendous mistakes which the eye simply fails to recognise. I'd say
that, if one sits in front of a screen for more than 55 minutes at a
stretch, it's too long and nothing benefits (certainly not the work,
certainly not the worker). I get up, walk to the front door, look out
and focus my eyes at a distance - there is a convenient church spire it matters not that my neighbours think me mad, they would have done so
in any event.
John Jeffries
The one warning I would add is that I find "names" indexes can be very
"quick" to do, but the simpler they are, a) the more tedious (so I need
To have something else on the go at the same time) and b) the worse they
are in ergonomic terms. If an index really is straightforward, you find
yourself stuck in exactly the same posture until you take positive steps to
do something about it. It's the one time I find indexing causes me physical
discomfort.
Maureen MacGlashan
[Background:
John is quoting
From: M MacGlashan <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] advice needed for indexing times
Date: 09/03/2006 12:39:17]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] inversion of Chinese names
Date: 11/03/2006 16:21:50
I was going to keep out of this until the penny finally dropped about
92
what it is which bugs me and I think that what it turns on is this:
though there may be a generally accepted social convention, there is
always someone who needs to be different.
I remember a person who had been adopted abroad and given a new personal
name and her adoptive parents' surname. For a while she rebelled against
this and took back her birth name. After that she compromised. Thus, the
names she used in a two year period were:
Cheryl Charman
Liang Swee Koo [near as I remember]
Cheryl Liang
In other words, a mixture of western/Chinese naming conventions.
Those of Hong Kong or Chinese-Singapore/Malaysian extraction often have
a three part name which is Chinese-western-Chinese. So, in the case we
started off with, the name might equally well have been: Ling Judy Wong.
Interestingly, it is just as difficult with Sikh names. My neighbour
refers to himself as "Indy" and is wife as "Amy". Strictly according to
Cocker, so as to speak, they are "Inderjit Singh Bedi" and "Amrita Kaur
Bedi" [I think]. He wouldn't mind being referred to as "Mr Singh" notwithstanding all Sikh males have the middle name Singh [and all
females Kaur]. Blow me down but there is a women in the bank with a name
badge: "Raj Kaur". To make it worse, amongst Sikhs, as with Brummies, it
is considered very bad manners indeed to refer to others in public (and
may be in private) by their proper names. My neighbour did once leave me
a little dazed with a long story involving his wife, her mother, his
mother, his wife's sister and his daughter ... and they were all, "she".
I guess we continue to do our best but the chances of ever getting it
entirely right seem remote.
John Jeffries
[Background:
From: Ann Hudson <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] inversion of Chinese names
Date: 09/03/2006 14:37:34
Dear All,
A quick query on a Chinese name:
Judy Ling Wong (UK Director, Black Environment Network)
Wong, Judy Ling
or
Ling Wong, Judy ?
Many thanks for any help,
Ann Hudson]
Subject: RE: [Sideline]: What's in a name
Date: 12/03/2006 19:19:25
Funny that. Winston Churchill reinstated that "S" after being
congratulated upon the novels he had not written. Then again, had he
stuck with his aristocratic double-barrel of "Spencer-Churchill" - which
was his real name - he would have avoided a great deal of trivial
inconvenience. It's the trivial inconveniences which waste so much of
one's life ... which rather takes us back to Sue's TIC point.
All I've ever had, however, are cracks about "bloody" judges and, once
only, "the last great white hope." And, before we do have any cracks
93
about hot air, yes I was the first person to cross the Channel in a hot
air balloon - that and being blown up in the Docklands bombing.
John Jeffries.
It's not always an author's indecision that causes the problem. You
Start writing serious professional stuff under your usual name, then
discover that (for example) there is someone else with that name who writes
racy blockbuster novels and who lives the celeb life that you read about in
the papers. Library catalogues of course interfile your works with hers and
people start making 'humorous' comments at meetings. So what do you do? The
simplest thing is to add an initial or two.
Just another example of how untidy life can be, I'm afraid. In the great
scheme of things it's a small matter, I tell myself. So back to worrying
about global warming ...
Pat F Booth
[Background:
This thread began as:
From: Sue Lightfoot <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] inversion of Chinese names
Date: 11/03/2006 17:32:19]
Subject: [SIdeline] Arab names, etc
Date: 21/03/2006 16:18:59
To short-circuit the discussion, at this point, what we usually say is
"Maureen, what about an article on ...?"
If someone has the energy, it might be worthwhile pulling together the
learning which exists on these sorts of problems. I recall, for example,
that about ten years ago the New Law Journal published a series of three
useful articles on name problems and there has been much valuable
discussion amongst ourselves and elsewhere.
At the very least, might we not adopt a convention that, if all
knowledge fails, we put just what it says? Hence, if it says on the page
"Abdul Ben Nevis" we put that and leave it alone on the basis that if
anyone has ever heard of Abdul Ben Nevis before they will more likely to
look under A for Abdul than anything else. On much the same grounds, I
wouldn't have a problem putting Leonardo da Vinci under "L" but I might
have questions whether the "d" or the "V" help at all. All the same, I
have worries over how to deal with those nominal prefixes which
translate as "of". It's very hard to say what's best. Anyone remember
the film where Googie Withers plays the part of the Dutch resistance
worker, "Jan de Vries?"
John Jeffries
[Though I think it more likely that I was merely the villain who
belonged to one "Geoffrey."]
[Background:
This thread seems to have begun as:
From: Mrs Victoria Robinson <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] South African names
Date: 21/03/2006 14:39:02
Can you give me some opinions on:
South African names such as Van Rensburg and Van der Walt (obviously Dutch
origin)- under the name or Van (I favour Van)??
94
Also: the alphabetical order of Arabic al- names (in among the other Al....
names or all together at the the start of the Al........s ??
Thanks
Vicki Robinson]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Aung San Suu Kyi
Date: 23/03/2006 10:29:05
The Cambridge Biographical Encylopedia (1998) has her as:
Aung San Suu Kyi, Daw
John Jeffries
-----Original Message----From: Liqun Dai
Sent: 23 March 2006 10:20
To: Mrs Victoria Robinson; Sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: Aung San Suu Kyi
--- Mrs Victoria Robinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Many thanks to everyone.
>
> Can I ask two more questions re order:
>
> Aung San Suu Kyi
>
'Aung San' is the family name, 'Suu Kyi' given name.
So filed under 'Aung San'. (Aung San, Suu Kyi.
Freedom from fear. London: Penguin Books, 1995.)
Liqun
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Gifts from the East [O/T]
Date: 31/03/2006 16:12:08
No, no, no. This simply shows that all Tony's work for them runs like
clockwork and the mat is to remind him of the mouse which ran up the
clock. The four pens is more obscure but may refer to Roosevelt's four
freedoms (speech, expression, religion and freedom from fear and want)
and thus is a blessing to mark the end of the day, the end of the week,
the end of the month, and the end of the first quarter of the year.
-----Original Message----From: Tony Hirst
Sent: 31 March 2006 15:50
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Gifts from the East [O/T]
How's this for an odd gift? I've just received a surprise 'goodie-box'
from a Middle Eastern client. The first item was a substantial, but
unmistakably Eastern, clock. Next was a sizeable mouse-mat that displays
the time in a dozen or so countries. It was rounded off by four pens and
a copy of one of the books I have indexed for them! Perhaps they are
looking for a speedier turnaround, hence the clocks?
Best wishes
Tony Hirst
95
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] garden office
Date: 13/04/2006 16:10:11
Not everyone knows this but a chapel for railway personnel, of
corrugated iron construction, has been preserved at the Midland Railway
Centre in Derbyshire. It is licensed for civil marriages ... should you
be inclined to marry above your station ... .
Happy holidays to one and all!
J
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of John Noble
Sent: 13 April 2006 15:57
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] garden office
> I hope it is well insulated, not just for heat etc. but
> rain / hailstones might sound like you are at a sex-pistols concert.
> chris
This reminds me of a long ago monologue by Bernard Miles (Sir Bernard
Miles), speaking of a tin chapel with a corrugated iron roof he said:
And when it rains it don't 'arf rattle!
John Noble
[Background:
The thread began with:
From: "Laurence Errington" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] garden office]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] (SIdeline]Man Ray
Date: 20/04/2006 08:17:29
This one will run and run ...
Cambridge Biographical Encyclopedia has:Ray, Man, originally Emanuel Rudnitsky
-----Original Message----From: Kevin McLellan
Sent: 20 April 2006 08:02
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] (SIdeline]Man Ray
I think Chambers must also be wrong about his name being Emanuel
Rabinovich. Other sources, including the Getty site show it as Emmanuel
Radnitzky.
Kevin
Subject: [SIdeline] Bacteria
Date: 24/04/2006 10:33:59
Good morning everyone,
96
I have strayed into unfamiliar territory (I am not one to take the bread
out of the mouths of honest science indexers).
Escherichia coli or E. coli? The instant work is multi-authored and the
two are used interchangeably.
All I can find in the books is that there should be an initial cap and
italicization.
TIA,
John
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Dalai Lama
Date: 25/04/2006 09:38:43
Chambers and Cambridge both use Dalai Lama and say the 14th is Tenzin
Gyatso. Nos 2-14 all have Gyatso as the last component of the name. I'd
love to know what it means. Is it that Margaret has uncovered his birth
name - before it was revealed that he was No.14? Cannot see, however,
that many readers would think of looking beyond Dalai Lama.
I was considerably diverted to learn that Dalai Lama means "ocean-like
guru" in Mongolian. I think that's rather wonderful.
J
-----Original Message----From: Margaret Christie
Sent: 25 April 2006 09:07
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Dalai Lama
Dear folks,
I am curious as to how people index the [present /
14th] Dalai Lama. I'm not asking what his "real" name
is - I've found it in the four library catalogues I've consulted. They
all cross-refer from D.L. to Bstan-["]Idzin-rgya-mtsho. But I'd never
think to look there without the cross-ref. And the book I'm indexing
doesn't use this name. And the book by him that I own doesn't use it
either (at least, not on the cover or title page or copyright page). So
is it ok to index under D.L.? TIA, M.
Margaret Christie
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Keeping awake
Date: 26/04/2006 09:50:30
What this shows is that indexing is hard, difficult work requiring
higher levels of sustained concentration than most occupations. This is
compounded by working freelance and from home where the working day/week
lacks obvious limits.
Should one fall asleep it may be that one's body is saying something. A
former colleague of mine, under considerable stress, was driving to work
and the next he knew he had ploughed straight into a roundabout.
For the last three years I've thrown on my clothes each morning and gone
straight out for an hour's walk in a nearby country park. This seems to
calm the soul and lower the blood pressure and, being more relaxed, I
don't become quite so weary. Failing this, I watch News 24 for about 20
97
minutes. There is usually something going on in the world to irritate me
back into wakefulness if it's only the blessed footie "news". You know
the sort of thing: "Dollis Hill Athletic's Polish striker and 50 million
pound signing from Dynamo Bydgoszcz has broken one of his finger nails
and is doubtful for Saturday's local derby with Neasden United".
J
-----Original Message----Sent: 26 April 2006 09:14
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Keeping awake
Does anyone else have problems keeping awake while indexing? I find
that I tend to drop off when I'm actually *creating* entries,
although I can *edit* indexes for twelve hours or more at a stretch
without dozing off. I've various ways of dealing with this but would
be glad to hear other people's suggestions…
Drusilla
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Keeping awake
Date: 26/04/2006 11:39:39
There's odd. I don't keep a cat but there is a wood mouse who cleans up
what the birds have scattered from the bird table - about three metres
from where I sit outside a sliding glass door. I call him "Winston". I
regard him as my neighbour. Watching the mouse, chasing off the
squirrels and noting the different bird species is another way of
dissipating the pressure of the tyranny of the proofs, keyboard and
screen.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Keeping awake
Date: 27/04/2006 15:07:16
Come, come, Comdrades! It isn't that bad. Like the Mole, we can say
"Bother!" and "O blow!" or any other such stronger and more apposite
expression which might hasten to our lips. Compare that with what it
used to be like, when it was necessary to countenance and endure the
foibles, tantrums and perversities of all those horrible people who made
organisational life pestilential - and with a fixed expression. When I
think of all those pasty faces I ought to have slapped but didn't ...
Goodness me! I sit here and count ever single one of my blessings. Go
back to the way things were is something I, for one, assuredly should
not do - even for a pension.
J
Laurence wrote:
Seriously though, it can be terribly dull if (as I and other have done)
one works all day and overtime just indexing. You finish one index, pack
the proofs away and immediately get another one.
Subject: [SIdeline] Prince Charles
98
Date: 01/05/2006 12:41:23
Hello,
When Diana got his name wrong in her marriage vows it may have been a
portent. Be that as it may, applying Mulvaney, I'd be inclined to index
him as:Charles, Prince of Wales.
I am struggling, however, to see any conceivable justification for
this:HRH Charles Windsor
It's what I've got in front of me. It gives me pause because Mulvaney
speaks of a situation where one is dealing with given names without
family names - therefore needing to be qualified by titles. Of course,
the PoW does have a family name (even if it should really be
Battenburg-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha) but surely he has never the style as
above?
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Keeping awake
Date: 02/05/2006 12:33:24
I left school 40 years ago but the malodour of the school gym/changing
room is yet to leave me. Forget about sweaty gyms and breath the fresh
air. It was beautiful out this morning and first thing is by far and
away the best part of the day.
Oh yeh, I am in the process of changing over to a new email address:
[email protected]
Drusilla wrote:"I am planning to follow John J and Sue B's example and go for an hour's
walk every day (of course I haven't actually started doing this yet)
but I don't feel up to the ultimate challenge of joining a gym congratulations to Geraldine, though. Perhaps two half-hour walks a day
.."
Subject: [SIdeline] I say, Poirot ... Well, I say
Date: 08/05/2006 11:58:54
Hello,
Like the police, I'm baffled. I've a cheeky little number on semiotics
and, if you don't know what semiotics is, trust me, you don't want to
know either.
The learned author is discussing the symbolism of criminal detection and
draws examples from detective fiction. It's a work of legal theory not
literary criticism. Should I have an entry:Poirot, Hercule
and, if so, what on earth do I do with "Miss Marple"?
99
Unless I'm blind as well as daft, I cannot find any guidance in the
books and, would you believe, I possess copies of the "Life and time of
." for both Hercule Poirot and Miss Jane Marple and neither are
indexed.
My first reaction was to index the authors and ignore the fictional
characters but I don't think I can get away with just doing that.
Could someone give me a clue please (ho, ho)?
TIA
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] I say, Poirot ... Well, I say
Date: 08/05/2006 13:25:32
Many thanks to colleagues on and off list for the helpful and
constructive replies.
My present inclination is to (i) enter fictional names as if they were
real people following the style of Chambers Dictionary of Literary
Characters; (ii) enter the names of the authors as per usual and where
significant; (iii) list fictional characters as they are given under a
heading "detective fiction" - which I need anyway (in italics, may be);
and (iv) as Geraldine suggested to me, create a note of what I've done.
This seems to address the problem of characters where a full name
doesn't spring to mind. The devil will be looking over my shoulder if I
put "Morse, Endeavour."
J
Subject: [SIdeline] Backing up.
Date: 14/05/2006 10:41:13
Hello,
My patron saint is St Neurosis of Paranoia. I always do a Marcrex
back-up to C:, A: and I: at least at chapter intervals. I've got one of
these iomega Zip 100 things. Every so often, the I: back-up just doesn't
happen. It's in the nature of an intermittent fault that the cause is
rather hard to diagnose. Anyone else had this experience or know what
the trouble is?
TIA,
J
Subject: [SIdeline] St Neurosis
Date: 15/05/2006 11:39:39
I have been asked to provide further information on the life of the
blessed St Neurosis who, curiously, seems to have been omitted from the
standard works of hagiography.
St Neurosis was martyred in the town square of Paranoia (in the modern
Balkan province of Paraphernalia) on 1st April 666 (the number of the
devil). She failed to escape the invading hoards of Cybergoths having
100
returned to the convent (Little Sisters of the Word) to check on whether
she had closed a window. She was beatified by all three popes on the
1000th anniversary of her martyrdom and is chiefly venerated by those
who have lost their marbles.
J
Subject: [SIdeline] St Neurosis rules - OK?
Date: 19/05/2006 14:47:23
Hello,
I should be bound to say that it is with trembling hands I open the
pages of The Indexer for the "Indexes reviewed" section. Heretofore I
appear to have managed to escape the attention of the reviewers: long
may it continue. Reckon I prefer a decent obscurity - and I don't know
that I even enjoyed the experience of a favourable review of something I
myself had written.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Taylor & Francis
Date: 02/06/2006 18:26:53
I'm unclear how the responsibilities are divided up when our friends in
Pondicherry are involved - but there is still some project management
done in the UK. I'm even less clear on who does what and where in
respect of this family of imprints. Palgrave/Macmillan are just as
confusing for much the same reasons.
Roll on pension day, say I.
J
Subject: [SIdeline] More things move offshore
Date: 05/06/2006 11:10:35
This morning I received a curious piece of advertising literature about
DVDs which opens in unpromising fashion: "Welcome to Razamataz,
Jeffries."
Now, why do I think this work was not undertaken in the western world?
And, might it not be failing in its purpose?
BW
J
Subject: [SIdeline] Sweet & Maxwell rates
Date: 08/06/2006 12:38:51
Sweet & Maxwell have a system whereby rates for loose-leaf updating are
fixed/imposed in advance. They regard this as fair on the freelance and
fair on themselves.
101
I have just done an "update" which is scarcely anything less than a
complete re-write. There had been 12 sections of commentary which is now
17 and, of the original 12, only one is untouched. I actually received
1,800 folios of material though half of it was irrelevant to the task.
The original fee was £212. It was then decided that this release should
be two releases combined, hence a fee of £414.
The work took me 80 hours and, after some argy-bargy, I have got them up
to £1,000 (£12.50 per hour). Thinking I wouldn't get any closer to their
own "going rate", which I believe to be £16, I decided to take the money
and run.
Would be interested in any comments on or off list.
As ever,
John
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Sweet & Maxwell rates
Date: 08/06/2006 14:49:45
Thanks to all for helpful comments but I suspect I may not have made
myself clear.
What they do is set rates for these particular jobs each year in the
autumn of the previous year. This is, without having any knowledge as to
what the legal authors may or may not do. The figures appear to be
plucked out of thin air but are impossible to query because one knows no
more about the potential amount of work than they do themselves - which
is nothing at all. Negotiation, whether reasonably practicable or not,
is not encouraged. In effect, it's take it or leave it - and one doesn't
even now what is about to be taken or left.
A consolidated order form is then received for the work they may or may
not send, at any time one is likely to know about, for the next calendar
year. It used to be the case that the first to be known of the immanence
of a job was when the doorbell rang and there was a reproachful-looking
courier on the step bearing a very heavy parcel. They have improved on
this. Now desk editors are supposed to send an email the day before but they don't all do it. There is one who is so tired he cannot summon
the fortitude to initial a comps slip let alone send emails.
I suspect that the prevailing attitude is that we should be damned
grateful they offer us any work at all especially when offshoring in the
Third World beckons.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Law question
Date: 09/06/2006 12:00:26
I thought this question would be incredibly easy to answer with a
standard work of reference which I won't mention 'cos I had a go at that
publisher yesterday. Fact is you can never be sure of geographical
extent without having sight of the primary materials. The troubled
constitutional history of Northern Ireland makes it even worse and I've
given up trying to figure out which legislation applies in the six
counties and which does not. At one time, it looked as though GB
legislation was transposed to NI by statutory instrument but I'm blessed
102
if I understand what happens with devolved powers in a state of
suspended animation.
Without wishing to offend any nationalists, devolution makes it worse.
For example, there might be a Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and
English fisheries policy but the one thing there is *not* is a UK
fisheries policy. Much as we find European ways strange, in
circumstances such as these, they think we are the ones with brains
having gone out to lunch.
Sorry this does not help (and I was 20 years a law librarian!)
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Introductory notes [was Diary Indexing]
Date: 17/06/2006 08:50:20
I think it would be a seriously good idea to have a set of established
"precedents." That's not just me being characteristically idle. It would
be bound to be of value to users were the situation reached where, so
far as possible, we always said the same thing in the same way. I have
also noticed that, where I have not seen fit to write a note, someone
else may do it for me and such interventions have sometimes left me
scratching my head.
Dr John Jeffries
-----Original Message----From: Susan Bosanko
Sent: 17 June 2006 08:31
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Introductory notes [was Diary Indexing]
Seeing James Lamb's excellent suggestion for an introductory note, it
struck me that the SIdeline archives now contain a number of good
suggestions for these. Can we bring them together somehow, and perhaps add
to them?
I did wonder if this would be a suitable topic for the wiki site. Then I
discovered that there doesn't appear to be a link from the SI site to
the wiki site - is that deliberate? Or has the wiki site been abandoned?
Sue Bosanko
Sent: 05 July 2006 08:24
Subject: [SIdeline] American spam
Hello,
In recent weeks I have been receiving a regular crop of spam messages
which appear to be US stockbroker recommendations. The author always has
a two part name, and the subject line is always meaningless. The last
two are:Nat Warner - surreal
Freddie Rivers - self-sufficient stone.
Reminds me rather of the BBC coded messages to the French resistance. I
presume the method employed here is intended to circumvent anti-spam
software.
Is this just one of those vexations I have to live with?
103
John J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] American spam
Date: 05/07/2006 20:25:45
Dear All,
Thanks for the interest. I am actually running two email accounts at the
moment - being a dial-up Freeserve account and a broadband ntl account.
Although I have had a couple of investment spams via ntl the majority
have been from Freeserve - about a third of which Freeserve identifies
as spam. The only other discussion groups of which I am a member are
Macrex and CUP-XML. I wasn't noticing but I reckon this all did start
about the time of the takeover/merger - what ever it was.
It all seems very silly because the chances of me speculating in US
investment markets are about as great as treating the Chief Rabbi to a
pork pie and a bacon sandwich.
Not in a good mood: been without power for eight hours today as a result
of a drop of rain and the odd clap of thunder.
As ever,
John
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] spam/WorldPay chargeback - ( and scams generally)
Date: 11/07/2006 17:02:03
Neighbourhood Watch advises me that there is a new form of telephone
scam. A message is said to come from "DHL Couriers" and one is led to
believe there is a parcel awaiting delivery and asked to call a certain
number to arrange a suitable delivery time.
The call, however, is premium rate and there is no pending delivery.
As ever,
J
Maureen wrote:
But more alarmingly, I had a message today from WorldPay Chargeback
(with which I have no connection whatsoever) with all sorts of dreadful
Warnings about the action they had had to take in respect of my account,
details in the attachment, which fortunately Winzip declined to handle! The
Temptation here was that I felt I had to know whether money was being taken
out of any of my accounts. The language was very persuasive.
Sent: 13 July 2006 09:24
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Logo arguement
Honest: for once I was going to keep my gob shut.
Someone has already alluded to the former British Rail "corporate
image." I happened once to meet the person who was responsible for it. I
tried to get him to explain what was the point of it all and the best he
seemed able to come up with was that the image showed that it WAS
British Rail. Thus, the punter would recognise a railway station or a
train from the corporate image and associate it with the British Rail
experience. Now, many people would say that old John is limited in very
104
many ways but, bless our souls, he knows a railway station when he sees
one and, after all, it's very hard to confuse a train with a motor
scooter.
J
PS
Douglas Adams enthusiasts may remember who occupied the Golgafrinchan
"B" Ark ("The Restaurant at the End of the Universe").
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Gavin Ireland
Sent: 13 July 2006 09:54
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Logo arguement
Reminds me of a story I once heard about a very famous British
building society that paid an image consultancy more than
£1million. For this tidy sum they got their name reduced from two
words to one and presented on a background of garish colours!
I could have done the same for them and charged considerably less
(about £950,000?).
Regards,
Gavin.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Sweet & Maxwell rates
Date: 13/07/2006 12:33:19
Been rattling my bars again today ...
Had another job from S&M where it looked like a week's work for a day's
money and so I beefed. The interesting nugget embodied in the response
(which I doubt I was supposed to see) was:
"multiply hours x 15".
So, there you are comrades. Thinking of breaking into legal indexing?
Try cook books (or almost anything else) instead.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Political leanings in the index
Date: 14/07/2006 13:03:59
An interesting point but I am not sure that "leftist/leftism" is
necessarily to be treated as dismissive. Even his present grace of
Canterbury describes himself as a "hairy lefty".
I think that the question I would be asking myself is whether the author
imports some particular meaning into the term which distinguishes it
from socialism. And that is always supposing one can any longer state
with much certainly what the term "socialism" itself might be understood
to mean. I'd have to say that where the language alone is controversial,
and unless instructed otherwise, I'd go with the flow and make the
possibly unwarranted assumption that, should an author employ one
particular expression rather than another, there was a reason for it.
J
105
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Getting work
Date: 21/07/2006 10:42:50
I've only had the five myself. I think it has a lot to do with stopping
at home when the rest of the profession has adjourned to Tuscan villas
or Skegness as the case may be ...
J
Maureen wrote:
It must be the silly season.
Within the last week I have had six offers of work. When people ask me
About marketing ploys, I always say that I find specializing and networking
Within that specialization are the key. My recent experience bears that
out. Of the six approaches, one was on the basis of my IA entry which
showed that I had experience in the specific subject area required, two
were the result of "a strong recommendation" from the publisher from whom I
get most of my on-going work, one was on the basis of a recommendation from
someone in a related organization, and 2 were the result of
networking/attending professional conferences other than SI.
Subject: [SIdeline] Print Cartridge
Date: 21/07/2006 15:37:05
We all have sinful secrets which have fallen to the back of cupboards.
Whilst rootling for something else, I found an hp inkjet print cartridge
20 - black - [hp deskjet 610c, 615c, 640c; hp fax 925xi; APOLLO P-2100,
P-2200] in the back of mine.
It's free for the asking to anyone who might have a use for it.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] German name
Date: 26/07/2006 13:02:53
I've become well and truly side-tracked over this now. Is there some
established learning on German naming conventions - especially in their
aristocratic form? It's usually the aristos who are the problem. I'd
like to get to the bottom of this.
I have been given "Gross Britain: the antidote to patriotism" which
reveals that Phil the Greek was never properly Philip Mountbatten at all
(it was his mother who was Princess Alice of Battenburg). His real name
is von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg. You can see why he
might have taken against it.
TIA,
J
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Jennifer Harding
Sent: 26 July 2006 12:26
Subject: [SIdeline] German name
Hi
106
I have just found Karl von Staudt in the book I am editing, indexed by
The author under Staudt whereas I expected to find it under 'von'. Which is
correct?
Thanks, Jennifer
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] SIdeline: re Children sent abroad
Date: 01/08/2006 14:48:51
There was a WWII tragedy of a ship carrying evacuee children to Canada
which was torpedoed or otherwise lost in the North Atlantic. It may be
in some way significant that I can find no reference to it in the
official history. I *know* that it happened but can find no reference to
it. Perhaps life, and young life at that, has always been cheap. Plus ca
change, plus ca la meme chose.
J
[Background:
This began as:
From: Linda Sutherland <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Children sent abroad
Date: 01/08/2006 13:29:07
Anyone know if there's a collective term for children who were sent to live
abroad after being placed in UK children's homes? I've a feeling there's a
recently-coined word or phrase, but if so I can't recall what it is.
Linda Sutherland]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Which magazine
Date: 01/08/2006 17:23:32
I should be bound to say that the search for a "place of publication"
seems to be one of life's more imbecilic lost causes especially if the
work were written in Milton Keynes, projected managed in Bungay, typeset
in Pondicherry and printed and bound goodness knows where (a seemly veil
of silence should conceal the modesty of the place from whence it might
have been indexed). I remember an afternoon of rising vexation with a
PhD student who had been told to delete the names of publishers in his
bibliography and replace them with place of publication - so out went
Penguin Books and in came Harmondsworth. Is there such a place as
Harmondsworth? Is it near Billericay? I'm sure it ought to be. As with
most things, the celestial spires of Oxford have long been in advance of
the rest of the world for, at one time the Bodley catalogue entered
everything under place of publication ... in the Latinised form of the
name!
J
[Background:
This thread began as:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Which magazine
Date: 01/08/2006 14:11:46
I hope that this doesn?t count as cheating!
I am in the process of completing the Unit B test. One question asks for an
example of an index which gives ?periodical volume and/or year . . . ? The
only thing I could find in my local library was the annual index to ?Which?
magazine. Unfortunately, try as a I might, I could locate neither a
107
publisher nor place of publication. Perhaps it went missing during the
binding process. Anybody got a suggestion?
Thanks,
Ian]
Subject: [SIdeline] OT: I'm not really sure quite what
Date: 03/08/2006 13:55:56
May be this is something the Moderator doesn't like but as well as these
purported stockbroker recommendations we talked about - which still keep
coming - there is often some script attached. I copy one of these pieces
of ineffable gibberish below. If any one could give me the least clue
what this sort of thing is supposed to be about I'd be really grateful.
Is it merely another example of the collapse into evangelical mystical
unreason which some postulate as at least the symptom if not the
precursor of the final moral and intellectual disintegration of the USA?
TIA
J
-----Original Message----From: Francis Paul [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 03 August 2006 12:00
To: [email protected]
Subject: thrive
Holy God, one has a heart in ones hosom,after all! How was he to convey
it, in a military word of command, to his men? And it was just all these
deadthings that made it so easy for him. Monsignore broke out amid
thegeneral hubbub, as he rose from his chair. Is it con-firmed that this
army corps hasarrived? Yes, why, the night before last, do you know who
came tosee me at the Palace? I make no apology for being late,
becausethe Signora, I can see. Monsignor Montero implored her with his
hands to be silent, to usesome prudence. Theproof that the heart of the
people is still on our side lies in theothers! Was there, perhaps, a
hill to be foundby the mouth of the Hypsas? Mita went on:Police,
detectives, magistrates . Yes, Sir, both sisters replied simultaneously.
Donna Adelaideinquired through her tears, turning to the Bishop. And he
passed out, letting the curtain drop behind him. I mean tosay, my
political responsibility. And she hurried in the wake of Liborio,
followed by Capolino,disturbed and worried. They were Pignas two
daughters, Mita and Annicchia. I feel sucha burning rage in my heart,
that I find it impossible to pray. Holy God, one has a heart in ones
hosom,after all! OhBella Madre Santissima, what a horrible smell! Donna
Adelaideinquired through her tears, turning to the Bishop.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OT: I'm not really sure quite what
Date: 03/08/2006 14:41:06
Indeedy. Thank you. I ran this one past my daughter who, from her
Whitehall eyrie, sends me this reply:
"Ah, now I know about this ... the gibberish is there for a reason.
Email filters scan for words that are usually present in scam emails ie
offer/Nigeria/bank/account or sexually explicit content. They then
calculate what percentage of the email is dodgy words. The gibberish is
added to keep the percentage down - it was in an article in the Times
yesterday. Apparently it's quite often a bit of The Hobbit at the
moment, for no discernable reason."
I'm still not sure that it undermines my initial thesis.
J
108
Hello I don't understand this issue in detail but it has to do with bad guys
trying to confuse Bayesian spam filters. A lot of spam I get is
completely random text, but this is rather easier to detect than stuff
that has grammatical structure but can be produced electronically in
large quantities. If the Internet is swamped with gibberish and material
a propos of nothing it is supposed to be more difficult for spam filters
to function. It doesn't matter who actually receives the spam so long as
filters are exposed to it.
I guess if we are going to be political it could be said that similar
techniques are as old as language, they are just being applied to spam
filters now rather than to people.
Regards
_John Sampson_
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OT: I'm not really sure quite what
Date: 03/08/2006 15:05:49
The devil of it is that if one is not careful one can easily can a piece
of perfectly legitimate and necessary traffic. I nearly did it
yesterday. I received a message from an improbably named "Mette Zoelner"
with a subject line "Proof schedule". At first blush it looked like
another junk message but I was actually being copied in on a message
from the learned author of a book I'm supposed to be doing later this
month!
An email with an attachment said to be a photograph of "Little Missie",
however, from someone I'd never heard of was deleted without opening and
without hesitation.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] No communications: so one OT
Date: 08/08/2006 10:58:20
As we have gone quiet ...
It is a curious thing that, of a very small number of female recipients
of the George Cross (an award made very sparingly), two have the
component "un-Nisa" in their names (HSH Noor Inayat-Khan and the Begum
of Hyderabad). Can anyone tell me what this fragment means?
TIA
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] search and replace - something entirely different
Date: 11/08/2006 07:45:24
The learned author of a loose-leaf I do is patiently going through the
text changing "Inland Revenue" to "HMRC".
I notice from my own paperwork that, in frugal fashion, stationery
headed "Inland Revenue" is still being used though it looks as though
the new style will be "HM Revenue & Customs". Law reports tended to have
them as "Inland Revenue Commissioners" or "IRC" for short - though I am
sure that I read it seriously suggested that to address them as "Board
of Inland Revenue" helped staying on the right side. Be that as it may,
109
sooner or later I am going to have to change the Inland Revenue entries
but to what? It will be my intention to do ziss only wernce. My best
guess is that the average punter would think "HMRC". Any views?
TIA,
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Negotiating
Date: 16/08/2006 18:28:21
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that those who index in silence
can starve in silence. Last week, after some loose talk about the
possibility of a "premium" for a difficult job at short notice, I was
offered a derisory fee. I found that the expression: "I have just
reminded myself of Society of Indexers recommended rates" was very
useful at such a point ... and the offer was immediately doubled! The
good woman even said that she hoped I didn't think she was trying it on
..
J
-----Original Message----From: Avril Ehrlich
Sent: 16 August 2006 18:12
Subject: [SIdeline] Negotiating
Hi, there
It definitely pays to negotiate fees. I was recently offered £700 for a
700 Handbook. I pointed out (day before deadline in this case) that the
page rate should be roughly between £1.30-£1.60, and the figure went up to
£900 immediately. Editor even told me to contact her if I didn't think it
Was feasible, but I didn't want to be cheeky!
BW
Avril
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Negotiating
Date: 17/08/2006 11:18:18
There is a difficulty here as to relative bargaining power. This is not
a situation of equality of arms. A better comparison might be the small
independent contractor vis a vis a substantial company. I tend not to
index books for fellow householders but for multinationals or
subsidiaries of same. We can only charge what the market will bear and I
can assure one an all that when dealing with companies, specialist
industrial contractors have all the problems of being knocked down to
nothing or not paid at all to a far worse extent than we might
experience. For the most part, and I know there have been
well-publicised exceptions, we deal with people who are pretty decent
and we should be unwise to forget that.
So far as rates are concerned, I'd still say that our best plan is to
hang together (hopefully avoiding the inconveniences of hanging
separately).
J
-----Original Message-----
110
From: Nigel d'Auvergne
Sent: 17 August 2006 10:51
Subject: [SIdeline] Negotiating
Richard wrote: 'Remember as a business person you are a contractor. Tell
me, do you tell the plumber or electrician what fee you intend to pay them?
So who determines the fee rate for indexing a publication?'
Extremely well put. I have a feeling that there may be a tendency among
Us to underestimate, or at least lack confidence in, our negotiating
strength.
Nigel d'Auvergne, Freelance Indexer
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] To invert or not to invert (now OT)
Date: 27/08/2006 10:35:34
In the words of the IB, it's called being, "... sworn brother, sweet, to
grim Necessity ..."
J
Goodness, aren't we all good, working on a bank holiday weekend!
Sue Bosanko
To: "'Laurence Errington'" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] To invert or not to invert (now OT)
Aside from the Hamiltons, and I'm still thinking about that, this
restores my faith in human nature or at least its younger manifestation.
As it happens, on a visit to Ragley Hall on Friday I received my tickets
and directions to the car park from Edward George, Lord Conwy (aetat
11). He and the Earl of Yarmouth (aetat 13) earn £1 per diem for picking
up litter. But that's nothing really, because on a previous visit a
young woman in scruff order directed us to exactly the facility one
needs most having been on the road for two hours: our guide was indeed
Beatriz Seymour-Watson, Marchioness of Hertford. Irony is that this is
the house in which my great-grandmother was in service ...
J
Subject: [SIdeline] Postal Services - Speedmail
Date: 16/09/2006 15:44:33
On Friday (15th) I received a package of work allegedly mailed out on
Wednesday 6th. Having been alerted to its despatch and having noted its
non-arrival, I asked for a replacement which was mailed out on Monday
(11th) and received on Wednesday (13th). I requested a further copy of a
missing enclosure on Wednesday which is yet to arrive. The publishers
use a service called "Speedmail International" (that's on one side of
the label with the unpromising address: "Unit 84, Galleywall Trading
Estate, Galleywall Road, London SE16 3PB"). The other half of the label
says "Royal Mail postage paid" and sure enough the package - in a
plastic bag with a note apologising for the rough handling it had
received in transit (or, as they put it, "whilst in our care") - arrived
per the fair hands of my postman. I don't know about the
"International", because the package came from London, but the
expression "Speedmail" seems an affront to the trade descriptions
legislation. Well, that's unless the comparator is a three-legged
111
donkey.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Unfarirness of Accreditation
Date: 23/09/2006 15:36:34
Not for the first time, I am beginning to feel that this discussion is
taking a rather unhealthy corner. Now, cards on table, I've probably
turned round rising 800 indexing jobs and have nothing to declare but an
entire working life-time spent in the old information racket. It was
only because some person, who sounded as having a great many plums stuck
in the mouth, poured such scorn on what I am pleased to call my
qualifications that I lost interest in IA and SoI qualifications. I can
only imagine that delivering what the punters ask for, and on time,
pleases them most of all and it's that which provides me with a full
belly and a roof over my head. I could ask what good the SoI does me for
my membership subscription because, so far as the work is concerned, it
really can be summarised in the name of a well-known Irish stately home.
It is beginning to feel there's a school of thought that only the heaven
born will, Jehovah's Witnesses-like, ascend beyond Everest to some
rapture of eternal indexing bliss.
Guys and Dolls: let's get real. There are some rather more serious
problems waiting for us out there. Please.
J
[Background:
This thread was begun as, and derives its persistent typo from:
From: Bill Johncocks <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Unfarirness of Accreditation
Date: 22/09/2006 16:24:40]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Light bulbs, changing
Date: 27/09/2006 15:08:00
And 150 to sign a special motion that only those formally accredited in
light-bulb changing should be allowed to illuminate their vocational
competences and 250 to argue about the heat/light ratio in any
discussion on logos.
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Nigel d'Auvergne
Sent: 27 September 2006 14:38
Subject: [SIdeline] Light bulbs, changing
Some of us have seen this already, as it has just appeared on another
list.
For those who haven't, it's just a joke:
"How many List members does it take to change a light bulb? …"
Subject: RE: [Sideline] Those rates again (OUP)
Date: 29/09/2006 13:01:52
It should also be noted that the work is often of much greater
112
difficulty than usual and set against tight deadlines. My worst
experience was agreeing to do a 1,250 page jobbie in a month (crossing
the Christmas period). It was then delivered late and demanded back
early - and I had to understand that only three weeks could be allowed
for indexing and this should be quite sufficient even if I was taking
off "extra days" at Christmas. Yes, she did say that. And I got £1 per
page. They do it by issuing a pre-prepared invoice with the amount
already written in. It was a difficult book with quite unnecessarily
complex - and perfectly useless - paragraph notation.
They also like sending messages asking how one is "getting on".
I've never accepted any work from them since.
I am afraid that it is a straightforward choice between standing up or
being trodden upon. I'm sufficiently cussed to prefer to starve on my
feet.
J
[Background:
The thread began with:
From: Avril Ehrlich <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Sideline] Those rates again
Date: 29/09/2006 10:27:25
Hello
On another rates issue, I have recently been offered work by OUP which
amounts to just £1 per page. When I pointed out that this was rather low,
they replied that this was the maximum amount allowable and other indexers
worked for this amount.
I think we really must stick together on matters like this as it reduces
our bargaining power if such low rates are accepted; we are offered no
choice other than to accept at a low rate (and possibly do a sub-standard
job) or refuse the work!
Moan over.
BW
Avril
Subject: RE: [Sideline] Those rates again: assertiveness training
Date: 29/09/2006 14:00:00
Then again, perhaps it is not even so much a matter of assertiveness,
and flowing from an offlist conversation, but how one deals with the
air-headed, half-wits who pass for desk editors these days. I mean the
spineless creeps who merely shunt the problem down the line because they
won't confront the person upstream making unreasonable demands.
Mutatis, mutandis, I am also reminded of the words of Mrs Hawksbee to
the effect that the most stupid woman can manage a clever man but it
requires a very clever woman to manage a fool.
J
[Background:
From: M MacGlashan <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Sideline] Those rates again: assertiveness training
Date: 29/09/2006 13:34:44
Sue's message (from which I don't dissent) did provoke the thought that SI
could offer workshops or perhaps a Conference session on assertiveness
113
training. I found such courses worked wonders with younger staff when I was
a line manager in the late 80ies.
Maureen MacGlashan]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] rates of pay again
If the graphical content doesn't need to be indexed one might begin to
question what informational content it adds to the book. I'm still thinking
about the picture of a tomato which someone mentioned a good long time ago.
Is it a surprise to anyone what a tomato looks like?
I happen to be engaged in an econometric work at the moment with a large
number of tables of data and so forth. They cannot be wholly ignored and
are indeed every bit as much trouble as a page of text. I dare say that the
rather pointless images of the kind which adorn so many lecture
presentations are just a waste of trees but even photographs may be very
important and require treatment especially if they have been placed at some
remove from the relevant text (though not tomatoes). I'm not prejudiced
against tomatoes, you understand: it could be any vegetable.
J
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Jane Read
Sent: 05 October 2006 10:17
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] rates of pay again
I always calculate page rate according to how many indexable pages
there are - so if they didn't want the illustrations indexed I wouldn't
include the pages with illustrations on in my calculations. I don't
know whether this is standard practice though, as all the publishers
I've dealt with give the total number of pages in the body of the book
(including illustrations). But I've never indexed a book with so many
graphics in it.
At least they sound slightly apologetic about the paltry sum on offer!
Jane
Subject: [SIdeline] Becoming peevish [not necessarily OT]
Date: 06/10/2006 13:33:29
I am waiting for the next thing to make me peevish. The window cleaner
came for his money and nearly gave me a heart attack by rapping on the
window instead of pressing my perfectly functional doorbell. I answer
the door and, in mid-sentence, his mobile phone goes off and he starts
talking to someone else. I call that rude. But that's only a lead in to
my present beef.
Later, my land line rings and a voice says: "This is an automated call.
Answering 'yes' or 'no', do you have a Sky satellite dish?" I wonder how
many people answer, "How does b*******s sound?" and, with l'esprit de
l'escalier, I wish I had.
Even having signed up to the Telephone Preference Service, I still
receive what I call nuisance telephone calls and I'm finding this
increasingly destructive of concentration.
My strategy when there are several moments of silence after having
picked up a call is to replace the receiver. With my hands-free phone
114
(undisclosed, ex-directory line) I press the "hold" button which plays a
more than usually horrible electronic tune. Can anyone share any other
ideas for dealing with this menace?
J
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Becoming peevish [not necessarily OT]
But how I wish that I could persuade a well-known legal publisher to
turn up here and see that I have a really good set-up for indexing stuff
according to the best available technology. Sure enough, 1990's technology
was seriously good in the 1990's - but my hands-free phone (the one that
plays the horrid tunes) tells me that this is the year of grace 2006. I
confined myself to saying that, if they would use amateur indexers and
bronze age typesetters, they might have only themselves to thank.
I wait anxiously for someone to tell me that moveable type did not exist in
the bronze age and that bronze has never been used for sorts, or then again
that it was but never really caught on. Please don't let me down!
J
-----Original Message----From: chris carter 69 [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 06 October 2006 16:30
To: john jeffries; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Becoming peevish [not necessarily OT]
Several years ago I had a call from 'dolphin showers' the rep wanted to
come around and give me a quote.
I finally agreed, he duly arrived, inspected the bathroom and said "but you
have a perfectly good shower room"
I said "yes I know" He left without another word.
heh heh heh.
chris
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: Becoming peevish (entirely OT)
Date: 07/10/2006 15:41:37
Thanks to colleagues for helpful and interesting suggestions. At the
moment I incline towards intoning:
"Welcome to the Aphrodite Glue Works. If you wish to place an order for
glue, please press "1". If you wish to query an unpaid account, please
press "2". If you think a tomato is a vegetable, or you are a tomato,
please press "3". For all other enquiries, please wait on the line and
one of our representatives will serve you in a moment. We value your
call. Thank you for calling the Aphrodite Glue Works." [pause - and in a
Dalek voice] "Your poh-ziss-shun in the queue is ... two hundred and
seven" [pause] "I am sorry: all our representatives are engaged, please
call again later. Thank you for calling the Aphrodite Glue Works".
J
Subject: RE: [Sideline] Edinburgh meeting
Date: 12/10/2006 15:12:18
115
Obviously I wasn't at the meeting so I don't know whether this point was
explored but it seems to me a significant issue. One can breeze through
text quite quickly if it is a subject where the discourse as a whole is
reasonably settled; the author is a competent writer anxious to
communicate rather than string together a series of long words one
cannot readily find in a dictionary; *AND* [sorry to shout] the text has
been helpfully organised and managed. I remember one piece of
intellectual misery where a long chapter had been divided into four
sections respectively: "I", "II", "III" and "IV" and no other headings
of any kind. It was probably the same one where I counted a 250 word
sentence. The work was every bit as soggy as the fen country from which
it originated.
Most books would be rendered far more accessible to Joe and Josephine
Public with accurate and meaningful headings over manageable portions of
text but it seems to be a bridge too far for most authors and editors.
And there is nothing I hate more than the humorist: for example, a book
on EU comitology which discussed the three procedures known [obscurely]
as "1", "2(a)" and "2(b)". Are you ready? Yes! There was a second level
heading: "2(b) or not 2(b)".
When I find myself having to read and re-read the same sentence in order
to cudgel any meaning into it, I should be bound to say that the
conclusion I reach is that it is a rotten book. This is no inverted
snobbery. The mark of a good philosophical work is its clarity and
economy of expression. Unfortunately, I find vermiculation preferable to
the inspissated and caliginous orotundity seen in the agglomeration of
verbiage of the present epistemic community and, when I see the word
"hermeneutics", I reach for my cyanide capsules.
J
[Background:
This appears to be a long-runnig discussion; the first mention of the
Edinburgh meeting seems to be:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [Sideline]: Reading the Whole Book
Date: 12/10/2006 06:42:32
Hello I attended an Edinburgh meeting at Elsevier (then something else) some
years ago. I did not receive an invite this time [Hon. Members: Oh!]
Do I read every word when I index? I am not sure. I feel like the centipede
which was asked which foot it put forward first when it set off anywhere.
It thought about it and found that it did not know.… ]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Am I being too suspicious?
Date: 12/10/2006 16:28:38
Go on. Own up. How many other people Googled "crystallised fruit" and
couldn't find the story? It's been a long day.
J
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Jackie Speel
Sent: 12 October 2006 15:15
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Am I being too suspicious?
116
Probably the 'polite answer' is to refer the person to the Services for
Publishers and Authors page on the SI website, and ask them to provide you
with full details.
There are always possibilities for misinterpretation - anyone else come
across the story to the effect that an ambassador was asked what he wanted
for Christmas and, after some thought, answered 'a small box of crystalised
fruit': there was then a radio broadcast to the effect that ambassador x
wanted peace for Christmas, ambassador y wanted something else and
ambassador z wanted a small box of crystalised fruit.
Jacqueline Speel
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Repetitive strings
Date: 16/10/2006 09:36:10
I think that there is a difference between a badly written monograph and
a poorly edited multi-author work. With the former, there might be a
case for indexing it the first time and ignoring the repetition. The
danger with the latter is that the point intended might be quite
different and I have known it be completely antithetical! Equally, I
often suspect there is an assumption that no one will ever read the
entire work so there has to be repetition relevant to context. A better
approach might be to say it once and provide textual references instead
of telling the same story over and over again. That, however, would be
work. Once again, we can hardly be expected to redeem idleness and
incompetence further back up the chain.
J
What does one do when a book is so repetitive that it is impossible
to avoid strings of locators because they all refer to the same thing?
With reference to the recent discussion about whether or not one
reads every word - I have read the same words about a dozen times, in
slightly different variations. It's a prime example of an author
padding out a research paper to fill a 250-page book.
In exasperation.
Margaret Binns
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Communications [was nuclear physics index]
Date: 18/10/2006 13:13:58
Sue wrote:
"Sorry, joining in this a bit late because of the Orange broadband
System being down for two days..."
I am beginning to find this sort of thing seriously worrying. Much as I
delight to hear from Sue and much that I miss her when I do not, for me,
two days without communications this week would have meant two deadlines
also missed. This is compounded by the assumption that, once one has
clicked on "send", instant communication has been accomplished.
My PC guru *insisted* that I migrate to ntl and some five months of
experience makes me think that he was inspired. I didn't really fancy
the idea of black cable circling the house like Puck putting a girdle
round the earth (in both cases it was done within 40 minutes) but it's
not that intrusive.
As we seem to have joined the business of naming and shaming, how about
naming the providers who are worth running with - and shaming those to
117
be avoided?
J
[Background:
The thread was begun by:
From: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] nuclear physics index
Date: 17/10/2006 13:54:48]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 4:48 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Communications [was nuclear physics index]
As a result of all this, I decided to revive my dial-up freeserve
account which I have not accessed since 22 September for the simple
reason that they had changed the settings and I just couldn't be asked to
get to the bottom of it. The laugh is that, as James says, they tell you to
check their sodding website for what you have to do next (well, the
qualification there was my own) and since you cannot get through to them at
all ...
Anyways, having taken remedial measures, I found 66 new messages of
which four were not rubbish (two being offers of work) and 45 were those
blessed stockbroker recommendations. It took 21 minutes to download 5mb of
tripe.
Good isn't it?
J
> At 13:13 18/10/2006, john jeffries wrote:
>>Sue wrote:
>>
>>"Sorry, joining in this a bit late because of the Orange broadband
System being down for two days..."
>>
I am beginning to find this sort of thing seriously worrying.
This is not a matter of being with a particular broadband supplier All suppliers can, and do, have problems from time to time. Some
(all?, mine at least), provide an alternative dial-up number which,
while it would obviously not give broadband speeds, would at least
allow me to connect to the web, so that I can get to my email server, see
their website in order to get to their support pages and discover what is
going on, and receive/send emails. (Of course it is no good knowing that
the connection details for the dial-up link are on their website when you
haven't got a web connection!, and I need to be able to find my modem
cable)
Our business can be very reliant on web connection - it is important
to work out an alternative before disaster strikes, rather than
afterwards.
James
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Management of Expectations
Date: 19/10/2006 16:20:35
Hello Folks,
May I start a new ball rolling? If it is not a new ball, I should be
118
glad to be pointed in the direction of any learning we might have on the
subject.
There is one client of mine who thinks that Swiss Cottage is the centre
of the known universe and that all of the stars and the planets revolve
about it in one eternal harmony. I contrast this with another who
appears to be saying, in abject apology, that a mere three weeks for a
150pp jobbie is unwarrantable short notice whereas yet another expected
200pp done in a couple of days and what was my problem with that.
There is mo obvious reason why the punters should have any idea what
grief or otherwise a particular commission might cause. All the same, I
think that I have got beyond the stage of saying, "Yes, Guv ...
Right-ho, Guv ... What ever you say, Guv."
Has anyone managed to formulate a response which conveys the same
meaning as that addressed by a short-fused tennis player to a former
employer of mine ("you cannot be serious, man!") in such a way that one
might be - as he would have said - "heard positively"?
J
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Another prejudice confirmed
I am doing a book on psychotherapy which I had not expected to enjoy but I
chanced upon this and feel an irresistible need to *share* it with you:
"The egotistical speaker will find speaking an end in itself, a chance to
display their verbal ability rather than a focus on the substance of what
they are saying. Long words and complicated sentences with little meaning
hide the lack of a real engagement from the speaker."
And I am also chastened ...
:-(
but possibly
;-)
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Page range
Date: 25/10/2006 13:01:53
If you look at the way Mulvany indexes her own book on indexing you can see
that her preference is for starting the entry where she thinks the
discussion starts and finishing it where it ends. She'll do this even when
the expression which announces the arrival of the relevant idea is on the
second page not the first.
I'd say that common sense demands that one starts at the point which is
helpful to readers - where they can see they can see that the relevant
discussion begins. After that, where they stop reading is their own affair.
All our efforts at precision come to nought, however, when at second proofs
someone spots a short page and takes material back such that what might
have been, for example, 78-9 ought to be changed to 78 - but won't ever be.
HTH,
J
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
119
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pierke
ISB&Index
Sent: 25 October 2006 12:37
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Page range
I’m pondering on this minor issue for a few days now and have tried to find
information in the indexing books I posses, but I haven’t found a
satisfying answer. Maybe it’s too minor to be wondering about in the first
place ?.
What to do if a concept is discussed at the very bottom of a page and
continues for a few lines on the next. When I put in a page range for this
concept it would give the reader the impression that it’s a substantial
discussion of this particular concept, while this in fact isn’t the case.
Those few lines of information just happen to be divided between two pages.
My instinct tells me to only use the locator for the page that has the
bigger bulk of information. Is this correct?
Thanks for any help in this matter.
Pierke
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Page range (now OT)
Even Homer nodded. And, speaking of getting it all wrong, surely I am not
the only one to be on the receiving end of the latest outbreak of sublime
foolishness from NW3? I think that there is a great case for a regular
feature. Perhaps we should call it: "Tales of Swiss Cottage."
J
In the case I described I would have put in the locator for the second page
only (there where the concept is really discussed) and would have left out
the page where the discussion started (in this instance only a few words on
the bottom line). Till now I've always indexed the range, but the more
indexes I do the less confident I get over such minor details. Details I
hadn't time to think about when doing my first indexes.
John Jeffries said:
If you look at the way Mulvany indexes her own book on indexing you can see
that her preference is for starting the entry where she thinks the
discussion starts and finishing it where it ends.
<
I own the 1994 edition of Mulvany's book. Looking for 'page-range' in the
index I found by chance that the locators 92-93 pointing to a discussion
about page-range concatenators, in reality starts at the bottom of page 91.
So in almost exactly the same case I tried to describe (maybe not very
clearly), Mulvany doesn't include the first page in her page range.
Pierke
-----Original Message----From: M MacGlashan [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 1:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Page range
I'm sure there will be lots of different takes on this, but my practice is
to give the range. The thinking which leads me to this conclusion is that
120
a) I always like to take the user to the beginning of the discussion; and
b) just putting in the starting page in this situation could make it well
nigh impossible for the user to work out why this page was ever mentioned.
Maureen MacGlashan
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 1:56 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Copyright fees [utterly and without qualification
or apology OT but it is Friday after all]
A very dear friend sent me this and I cannot help but feel that it is the
answer•to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything:I can't help feeling that this is the sort or management system used by
S&M! It was April and the Aboriginals in a remote part of Northern
Australia asked their new elder if the coming winter was going to be cold
or mild. Since he was an elder in a modern community he had never been
taught the old secrets. When he looked at the sky he couldn't tell what the
winter was going to be like.
Nevertheless, to be on the safe side, he told his tribe that the winter was
indeed going to be cold and that the members of the tribe should collect
firewood to be prepared.
But, being a practical leader, after several days he had an idea.
He walked out to the telephone booth on the highway, called the Bureau of
Meteorology and asked, "Is the coming winter in this area going to be
cold?"
The meteorologist responded, "It looks like this winter is going to be
quite cold."
So the elder went back to his people and told them to collect even more
wood in order to be prepared.
A week later, he called the Bureau of Meteorology again. "Does it still
look like it is going to be a very cold winter?"
The meteorologist again replied, "Yes, it's going to be a very cold
winter." The elder again went back to his community and ordered them to
collect every scrap of firewood they could find.
Two weeks later the elder called the Bureau again. "Are you absolutely sure
that the winter is going to be very cold?" he asked. "Absolutely," the man
replied. "It's looking more and more like it is going to be one of the
coldest winters ever."
"How can you be so sure?" the elder asked.
"The weatherman replied, "There are reports that the Aboriginals are
collecting firewood like crazy and that's always a sure sign."
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Page range
Date: 25/10/2006 14:26:29
As it happens, I did once have an editor thank me for my "patient
explanation" as to why I had gone 89, 90, 91 instead of 89-91 (or what
ever it might have been). It really was because there was isolated
discussion of the same topic slap bang in the middle of three
121
consecutive pages. Bill's point refers!
What larks.
J
-----Original Message----From: jane HORTON
Sent: 25 October 2006 14:14
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Page range
I can see Pierke's point, but I would also always give the range. The only
time I might not is when the discussion begins at the very bottom of a
page, or sometimes there is a list of some description, then a cited author
is given over on the next page, and all I can envisage is the reader
scouring that first page for the author's name.
John made the point about broken discussions, but I would often give 24-5,
25-6 for a discussion about dogs interrupted by a long paragraph about cats
on page 25. But as I rarely get to see my published indexes I don't know if
a zealous editor would consider me an idiot and override this.
Best wishes,
Jane
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] disappearing emails
Date: 01/11/2006 11:50:25
Wendy wrote:
"One of my suppositions is that some servers are less concerned to offer a
fully efficient service because they do not intend to cater for business
users. When I complained to beeb (which I believe Geraldine also uses) once
before about inconvenience, they pointed out that I should not be running a
business using a beeb account anyway".
Even my best friends would agree that brains are not John's long suit but I
fail to see what difference it makes as to whether a message is a business
message, a complaint to British Gas or a proposal of marriage.
They take the sodding money fast enough: what else do they want?
J
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:55 AM
Subject: FW: [Sideline] A Point of Legal indexing
Hello,
Tom wrote:
> "There is also a substantial section on 'openness of proceedings' and
> cases illuminating this principle. Surely such cases should be mentioned
> under these headings, as they add context."
I think the point in Moys is that it is unnecessary and inappropriate to
index a case name where the discussion serves mainly to provide
authority for a particular proposition. In other words, it's the legal
concept/doctrine which forms the story not the case - or more likely the
line of cases - from which it has evolved. There will be situations,
however, where the case itself *is* the story. I recall one text which
included a major discussion of knowing receipt and, within it, an
122
analysis of the reasoning in one case at each stage of the litigation
(first instance, appeal and House of Lords). Here it would have been
rather perverse to struggle to avoid naming the case in the index.
A further point is that a table of cases should cite materials fully and
accurately. Some techies at one publisher once suggested that it would
be truly wonderful if texts always cited primary materials fully
throughout until it was pointed out that this would make text all but
unreadable. No one would write "Associated Provincial Picture Houses Ltd
v Wednesbury Corporation" - except may be the first time: they would
write of the "Wednesbury" case. Thus, there may be situations where it
is positively helpful to the reader - as well as for brevity - to index
the name by which a case is generally known rather than as it is
properly cited.
HTH,
J
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:19 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: Authors and indexes - TLS letters
I hadn't intended to become re-engaged in this discussion albeit I have
been encouraged by words from like-minded colleagues. On this occasion,
however, I think that I should wish to go further than Bill and make two
points. The first is purely personal: I gave up having my homework marked
in 1966 and do not intend to resume 40 years later. The second is more
general in character - and I can speak from the vantage of 18 years within
the academic cursus honorum: it has no shortage of fools, charlatans and
idle arrogant rogues. I have met some. And, if anyone thinks I am going to
be told how to do my job by some time-serving, know-all, know-nothing, they
can easily apply elsewhere.
J
123
2007
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] two simple questions? Company names
Date: 03/02/2007 15:38:04
Plenty of opportunities for argument here: I struggled with this when I
worked on a revision of the Case Citator. The style which was eventually
adopted was to cite company names exactly as they are given with no
messing. The result of messing about can be some very unhelpful results
such as:
Istel, AT&T [in this case it *must* be AT&T Istel]
Or
Smith, W.H. & Co [which is just plain silly]
The difficulty is where a company is known mainly by a single component
of the name in which case double/multiple posting or references are
worth thinking about.
Further, with company names from other jurisdictions, I'd put the
company form second even when it should probably/legally come first (as
with most - if not all - continental European countries) and in initials
(never rendered in full). I have actually seen "Aktiengesellschaft
[name]" instead of "[name] A.G"! The only reasonable exception would be
where the company name is a long forgotten set of initials such as the
former Belgian state airline - Sabena.
Definitely *not* a simple question: release the dogs of war.
J
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Pierke ISB&Index
Sent: 03 February 2007 14:56
Subject: [SIdeline] two simple questions?
I hope someone is willing to give me some advise about a few things I?m
not sure about.
1. Companies callled ?T. André and Fils? or ?A. Syme and Co.? should
They file under André and Syme or under T. and A. respectively? Or should I
double post or make a see references. The same for a company name like
Alfred Suart & Co.
2. Ships names should be in italics. The prefixes SS or MS what should I do
with them. Should I invert and if so should they also be in italics? Or
should I put SS before the ships name and ignore it when filing?
Murex, SS both in italics or Murex italics and SS not
SS Murex all in italics, but sorting under M
Pierke
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] two simple questions? Ships Names
Date: 03/02/2007 16:11:11
Having done that, I felt it was more consistent not to invert
ship's names, so adjacent entries read:
_Cornwallis_ [ship]
HMS _Cornwallis_ [warship]
124
I think that I would urge some caution here given the multiple use of
ships names. I know someone who became thoroughly embrangled over the
history of the Marine Society training Ship "Warspite" - a former second
rate ship of the line - by confusing it with the armoured cruiser
"H.M.S. Warspite". The life of the first completely overlapped the life
of the second [and the first was the sixth warship of that name]. And,
to add to the fun, the second was the second of three of that name used
by the Marine Society and both the first and the second were destroyed
by fire. Good, isn't it?
J
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Gerard M-F Hill <[email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] two simple questions?
Date: 03/02/2007 15:45:58
Pierke, both these questions arose when I indexed 'China Trade and Empire'
last year. I felt the names of family companies really couldn't be
inverted… Having done that, I felt it was more consistent not to invert
ship's names, so adjacent entries read:
_Cornwallis_ [ship]
HMS _Cornwallis_ [warship]
At the least, you can point to a published example of the practice; and the
author and client were delighted with the index.
Gerard]
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 7:22 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] two simple questions?
"There have been nine HMS ^Starling^s."
Here's an odd thing, and on a day when the news has been little if not
avian: Warspite is a syncopation of "wood sprite" - another name for the
woodcock.
Another funny thing is that if one country captured the ship of another it
would very likely press it into service on its own account – and retain the
name which might then become traditional. It is therefore not surprising
that, at Trafalgar, the French should own a Berwick and a Swiftsure whilst
Nelson had at his disposal a Téméraire, a Belleisle, an Achille and a
Tonnant (as well as a Swiftsure of his own). And that's not to mention two
or the name of Neptune as well as a Neptuno.
J
[John is quoting:
From: Michael Forder <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] two simple questions?
Date: 03/02/2007 18:46:26
Hart's Rules is explicit on ships names. The name is inverted, in italic,
the prefix is roman.
e.g. ^Murex^, SS; ^Dreadnought^ HMS
John Jeffries caution is wise; if any history is involved the names are
used again when a ship is lost. There have been nine HMS ^Starling^s. The
authority is J J Colledge, ^Ships of the Royal Navy^
125
Michael Forder]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] moral conservatism v conservative moralism
I don't think that either can be considered "terms of art" and we could
very easily be looking at a Humpty Dumpty ("it means just what I choose it
to mean - neither more nor less.") I'd suggest that it doesn't much matter
which approach is adopted provided the link is obvious unless the weasel
who has written the last chapter expounds on why the two expressions are
fundamentally different (usually buried in the abyss of a 500 word
footnote).
J
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Marie Selwood
Sent: 19 February 2007 10:40
Subject: [SIdeline] moral conservatism v conservative moralism
Dear all
Do you think that these two terms are interchangeable and therefore I
can pick one and cross ref to it or do you think there are subtle
differences?
In the context (legal theory) they seem interchangeable to me and it's a
multi-authored text therefore has inherent inconsistencies. However, I
don't want to make an embarrassing mistake!
All coments gratefully received.
Marie
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] moral conservatism v conservative moralism
Date: 19/02/2007 12:35:01
I think that Jeremy raises some very interesting points here. My own
impression, from works which use this kind of language, is that moral is
contrasted with libertarian (rather than amoral) and conservative with
liberal (rather than radical). Whether or not I am right, however, the
question is whether those concerned with the one are likely to be
concerned with the other. This could even be so were the expressions to
represent conceptual opposites. For example, I've been criticised for
treating "reservation of title" and "retention of title" as the same
when they are different and as different when those who are interested
in one are interested in both.
Coming up with helpful solutions, of course, is what they pay us extra
for ... (I wish, I wish).
J
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
On Behalf Of Jeremy Bowman
Sent: 19 February 2007 11:59
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] moral conservatism v conservative moralism
For what it's worth, they don't sound at all the same to me.
126
The word 'conservatism' (with a small C) stands for a set of related
attitudes such as mistrust of sudden change, hostility to innovation,
respect for the wisdom in traditions, and so on.
To my mind, 'moral conservatism' suggests a broadly conservative
attitude to morality. A moral conservative would be someone who
doesn't agree with new-fangled ideas about morality (such as New Age
environmentalism, Scientology, etc.) and instead thinks moral
questions are best decided by traditional ways of thinking (such as
Aristotle's golden mean, the Ten Commandments, etc.).
The word 'moralism' suggests judgemental, self-righteous, or
hypocritical attitudes. John Major urged us to go "back to basics".
George Bush (the elder) talked a lot about "family values". To my
mind, these exemplify "conservative moralism" (often Conservative with
a big C).
Jeremy
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] One for older indexers
Date: 26/02/2007 11:58:23
But, forget not, we had listened to the omnibus edition of The Archers,
Family Favourites (from London and Cologne), Round the Horne and (heaven
help us) The Billy Cotton Band Show. It wasn't a bad life.
Back to "innovative leadership" ... groan.
J
Oh no, as a kid around then, I remember when `sing something simple'
came on the radio (around 7pm Sunday evening) and I knew the weekend was
over
[Background:
A long running thread started by:
From: Chris Boot <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] One for older indexers
Date: 23/02/2007 08:41:54
Just finished indexing a chapter in a medical book, where the authors
were refering to "macrophages orchestrating tissue remodelling" and
"cytokines conducting the immune response". Not too bad, until I
realized one of the authors was a Dr. Mantovani.
Chris Boot]
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] One for older indexers
"Don't anyone, anyone though slag off Danny Kaye singing Tubby the Tuba.
I still come over all emotional hearing the tune."
Thank you, Laurence. I have just laughed until the tears rolled down my
face. There's precious little which crosses this screen in front of him
which lightens a gloomy day.
127
It has also stopped me mithering about whether the BBC call sign was CCCG#,
two below middle C ... anyone got perfect pitch?
J
Subject: FW: [SIdeline] One for older indexers
Date: 28/02/2007 09:13:00
My musical adviser, who is accurate to within a third of a tone, says:
"I would suggest that although there are several harmonics prevalent in
both 'notes' the predominant ones are CCC E in octave described."
That's about how I remember it in "The Longest Day".
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] One for older indexers
Date: 27/02/2007 16:55:32
Goodness me but I intend to get to the bottom of this. My indexes may be
the dog's Australian Research and Scientific Establishment but this is a
cultural icon I am determined to restore. I still think that it is three
quavers and a dotted crochet on the third below. I will obtain a
definitive answer tomorrow.
J
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Oh to be an Indexer - now that spring is here
I have just received the following which I understand to be an author's
suggestions for my next job. I wonder what it all means.
J
"As for the index, here is a small list of words that should be included:
Atlanticism
Autonomy, European vis-a-vis US
Cologne Presidency Conclusions, EU, 1999 Europeanism European
Security and Defence Identity European Security and Defence
Policy EU Battle Groups EU Mission Artemis EU Security
Strategy Helsinki Presidency Conclusions, EU, 1999 Iraq
Military Capabilities Security priorities of G.W. Bush
administration St Malo, declaration of, 1998"
J
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:23 AM
Subject: RE: [sideline] authors and indexes again
"And this is an author who discusses mute points [sic]."
Now that has seriously cheered me up on day when I hadn't got off
good start. My best recent contribution to the genre of those who
have been better advised to avoid what they know little about was
who drew attention to the remarkable properties of bronze (a hard
substance) made from two soft metals: iron and tin. I don't think
128
to a very
would
the chap
so. I did
point out that this would be to reverse the accepted understanding of prehistory but, as this was a management book, there is little doubt that my
comment would have been regarded as, "negative input." If you are not
worried enough yet, the author is said to have passed out top of his year
at the IBM Sales School.
J
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Susan Bosanko <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [sideline] authors and indexes again
Date: 20/03/2007 09:58:15
And, especially in the light of the rates discussion, to cheer you even
further, a quote from the book I'm currently working on...
" 'I'm looking for a large, interesting, historic country house within 50
miles of London that needs some money spent on restoration.' How many times
have I heard that? It must be at least twice a week."
How the other half spends its money! And this is an author who discusses
mute points [sic].
Sue Bosanko]
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:29:39 +0100
Subject: [SIdeline] Language - help please
I've got a book on race and economic opportunity in the USA. It's a
collection of essays and, as is inevitable, terminology varies. A quick
Acrobat revealed 1050 hits on the term "Black(s)", 186 for "African
American(s)" and just 9 for "of color". Going with the flow, I'd settled
on "Blacks" but I have a chapter which scrupulously sticks with "African
Americans". Usually, I wouldn't bat an eyelid but see reference such a
problem away. Does the term "Black", however, now give offence? The way
the book is structured I don't believe it will help to use all three
terms and bottle out with see alsos. Equally, I don't think that "Black"
is being used in the PC version to mean any victim of white racism
because I have all manner of other categories deployed (Hispanic,
Latinas, Latinos, Native Americans, etc, etc).
TIA,
J
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Language - help please
Many thanks for guidance both on and off list. For interest sake, the
academic editor prefers "blacks" [note case] on the basis of social rather
than medical classification. I presume that this is because the survey data
used allowed respondents to select their own label - but that's not clear.
J
129
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Comparative pay
Date: 11/04/2007 07:31:59
Same here.
*Fifteen years ago* the "going rate" for a head of information services
in a city law firm was £50,000. At that time, a trainee solicitor could
expect to start on £20,000+. A senior partner in a top ten firm would
have been making £1.5 million. What makes a difference is the number of
independent practitioners just starting up. New barristers expect to
make a loss ... but not for long! These bring down the average.
The NHS settlement over which the dentists were so aggrieved gives them
£80,000 earnings. Someone told me they could have as much in practice
costs on top of that. Poor lambs.
A senior civil servant makes £50,000 going up to about (I think)
£150,000 for a permanent secretary.
The best paid library job up for grabs at the moment is one of up to
£50,730 plus benefits in the University of Southampton.
J
Auriol wrote:
"Frankly I don't believe a word of it! On the figures for doctors (£16+
p.h.and 51-hour week), that gives a gross of just over £42,000, and I'm
sure I heard recently that they were earning pretty well double that.
Solicitors (as I know to my cost recently) are *charging* between £125 and
£175 per hour. At that rate they are only actually working for about 11
hours a week!
In The Times today, I read that the CEOs of the top companies are
earning over £40,000 per week!"
[Background:
The thread was begun by:
From: Linda Sutherland <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Comparative pay
Date: 10/04/2007 23:02:37
There are some interesting pay statistics in today's Guardian
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,2053201,00.html
Average hourly rates are said to be
dentists £12.88
consultants £10.75
doctors £10.76
lawyers £10.23
accountants £9.63
pharmacists £9.19
academics £8.92
further education lecturers £8.38
secondary school teachers £7.91
The article doesn't state whether these rates are gross earnings or
take-home pay. Assuming they're gross earnings, assuming my memory is
correct when it tells me that the true cost of employing someone is
around 150% of gross pay, and assuming that that figure is a better
yardstick against which to measure freelancers' rates ...
130
dentists £19.32
consultants £16.12
doctors £16.14
lawyers £15.41
accountants £14.45
pharmacists £13.78
academics £13.38
further education lecturers £12.57
secondary school teachers £11.86
In other words, by this yardstick the SI's recommended £17.50 per
hour would seem to place indexers second in the earnings league,
beaten only by dentists.
That surprises me. Are my assumptions wrong, or my arithmetic, or
both?
Linda Sutherland]
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:45:23
Subject: RE: Fw: [SIdeline] Comparative pay
"Can one quote Disraeli's 'lies, d’d lies and statistics' here?"
More than likely, but a regression analysis of secondary data confounded by
journalistic misinterpretation and dubious assumptions is certain to
provide pitfalls for the unwary.
There was once a journalist's parody of a survey of occupational stress
which posted librarians as being the least stressed occupational group
[they sure as hell had never worked on my issue desk where even fists flew
never mind language enough to make Anna Ford blush]. Inevitably, a copy
appeared on the staff room notice board. We employed contract cleaners.
Next morning, at the head of the list, appeared a manuscript addition:
"Night Cleaners".
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] being named as index compiler
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:09:01
Can someone make an old man very happy and tell me why authors do this?
Is it that they positively *do not* want readers to find relevant
information? Or, is it that they are just away with the fairies? I
cannot go to that great data archive in the sky without knowing.
J
"Unfortunately the 'slight' modification seems to have involved taking
out most of my subheadings so that huge strings of entries appear under
some headings."
[Background:
John was responding to:
From: Judith Reading <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] being named as index compiler
Date: 15/06/2007 12:59:57
I recently took great care over an index to a book called 'Making God'
by Ann Long. The author generously wanted me credited for the index and
131
I am named in the preface as ' the author of the indexes, modified only
slightly...' Unfortunately the 'slight' modification seems to have
involved taking out most of my subheadings so that huge strings of
entries appear under some headings.
So the moral of the tale is, don't agree to being credited with your
index unless you are sure they won't change it.
I'll look out for it in the indexes censured column!!
Judith]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Adobe Acrobat Reader 8.0
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:02:41
Dear All,
I have downloaded it and I am convinced some spyware came with it
because my computaman has just spent half-an-hour getting this machine
working again and the dowload is the only thing out of the ordinary which
has happened.
Any views?
J
[Background:The thread began with:
From: Margaret Binns <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Adobe Acrobat Reader 8.0
Date: 19/06/2007 09:19:48
I currently use Acrobat Reader 7.0 but I am being prompted to upgrade
to version 8.0.
Can anybody advise on the pros and cons?
I believe somebody recently (not sure if it was SIdeline or
elsewhere) had problems with the Search function behaving differently.
I'm reluctant to change just for the sake of it - I have been caught
out in the past with upgrading software that then takes time to get
used to with no obvious advantages.
Margaret Binns]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Filing names [OT]
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 14:54:59
To round off an intoxicating week, I've just had a hospital O/P
appointment where there was a new clinic nurse of unknown ethnicity.
Confusion amongst we aged punters as she summoned us in turn to the
twilight sanctum by reading our names directly from the labels on the case
notes. I was Jeffries John. How I wish I had been born John King or perhaps
John Saint ... and John Noble would have been pretty good.
J
Subject: [SIdeline] FW: Tabling and Indexing Job
Date: 29/06/2007 17:27:06
Did I hear someone say they were interested in a laugh?
132
'Hi
I?m looking for a tabler and/or indexer on behalf of [deleted] I
wondered if you?d be interested in this project. It is [deleted]
The main body of text is 697 pages long and has a budget of £1190 for
tabling and £1000 for indexing.
The tables consist of: table of cases, table of statutes, table of
statutory instruments, table of references to the FSA handbook, table of
references to the FRC combined code, table of references to the Treaty
Establishing European Community, table of European Regulation and
Directives.
The index can be based on the previous edition.
The proofs will be available to send to you for arrival on 3rd July and
would need to be completed by 9th July.
If this title is of interest please let me know at the earliest as I am
eager to place the work due to a tight schedule.
I will be offering the project to a few tablers and indexers so it?s
first come first served.'
[deleted]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] FW: Tabling and Indexing Job
Date: 29/06/2007 18:03:25
All the same, 5 x 24 = 120 hrs for GBP 2190 still only works out at GBP
18.25 per hour and below union rates ... and where would you be if you
needed to go to the loo? Doesn't bear thinking about.
> The main body of text is 697 pages long and has a budget of £1190 for
> tabling and £1000 for indexing.
[...]
> The proofs will be available to send to you for arrival on 3rd July
and
> would need to be completed by 9th July.
But looked at another way - how often does a client offer you over £2000
For what they clearly consider to be 4 or 5 days' work?!
BW
Wendy
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] FW: Tabling and Indexing Job
Date: Mon, 2 July 2007 15:32:11
I turned down two jobs from them on Friday. I know someone who sent a job
back last week for being fed up with being messed about. I think they could
be in trouble.
J
I think I've just been offered this job on the phone. They didn't want the
tabling done but they did want the index by next Monday. I didn't bother to
ask the fee as I said it wasn't possible to index this amount of law in the
time available so I wouldn't be able to guarantee to deliver on time. I was
133
then offered another job, 530pp of law for the same deadline £245! I
laughed and said 'I beg your pardon' and she confirmed the fee. That's the
worst offer I've ever had!
[Marie Selwood]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] FW: Tabling and Indexing Job
Date: Tue, 3 July 2007 10:37:57
They have been on to me again. There comes a point where one begins to feel
sorry for them. After all, the poor souls whose problem this is are merely
subdued by the bidding of those who created the problem. There has to be a
reason why all life seems to end with the punishment of the innocent.
Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens (With stupidity the
gods themselves vainly struggle).
J
'Some lawyers' (according to the free evening paper I read last night) earn
£1000 per hour - for their legal experience, background knowledge and
access to resources (including, presumably, their offices).
'Some legal books' cost a lot of money, due to the amount of research
involved and being definitive works.
Indexers should likewise be paid for their indexing experience, background
knowledge and access to resources (including Sideline).
Could an argument be put to these publishers that the fees to the latter
should reflect the former: rather than involving discussions of the minimum
wage?
Jackie Speel
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Legal indexing
Date: Tue, 3 July 2007 11:35:27
The charge out rate mentioned is not exceptional. There are, however, two
sorts of legal practice. Those who convey houses, defend drunk drivers and
handle our divorces, operating from high street offices, don't make a lot
of money and don't buy books. Commercial specialists dealing with multimillion pound transactions are a different kettle of fish. The price of
specialist legal texts reflects the small market to which they appeal. No
practitioners' book is ever going to sell 150,000 copies in paper back.
J
My comment on the minimum wage was in reference to the specific book and
fee mentioned and from what I know of legal books - and the lawyers' rate
was probably mentioned because it was so exceptional.
{Background:
John is quoting:
From: Jackie Speel <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Legal indexing
Date: 03/07/2007 11:06:08]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] rates again
134
Date: 03/07/2007 13:47:49
I have already been castigated for suggesting in terms that there is now
a generation of desk editors who do not know their elbows from their
weekend passes. I am pleased to report, however, that one of my
respected colleagues has mentioned privately that she should have
expected to have been clubbed to death in a previous incarnation for
what goes on now. You cannot really blame these kids, of course, because
they are just doing what the fat cats up the chain tell them. And, if
the fat cats give a stuff about publishing standards, or standards of
any kind, I should be happily surprised.
J
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
Behalf Of Marie Selwood
Sent: 03 July 2007 13:36
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] rates again
In some ways, this is not just an issue of rates. When OUP offered me
The 697pp company law book yesterday I never even got around to discussing
rates. I said that I could not deliver an index for that type of book in
the time allowed. The (very young-sounding) woman I spoke to said that she
could let me have a copy of the index to the previous edition. She had no
understanding of how an index is created and seemed genuinely suprised
that having the old index would be of absolutely no use to me.
I mulled over the possibilty last night with my husband that perhaps
People accept these jobs and then produce an index consisting entirely of
long strings, headings based around subheads and a keyword for each
paragraph. If you did that you might just be able to skim your way through
it. My husband commented that that was all very well but you would be bound
to end up getting complaints and publishers would probably refuse to pay
you or reduce the already pathetic fees.
It should be a cause of great concern to us that a prestigious ublisher
such as this has at least one department (maybe law is an exception) that
consistently undervalues an element of the book that is crucial to its
usefulness without having any notion of the amount of work and level of
expertise involved in creating a useable law index.
A few weeks ago I resolved to turn down all these badly paid jobs even
if I had space to do them. I haven't checked my deleted emails but I should
think I have turned down at least 10 jobs in the last two months on the
grounds of pay alone. The publishers involved all seem to think that we are
sitting here twiddling our thumbs waiting for them to contact us. I am
lucky to have a reasonable amount of relatively well-paid editing work to
keep the wolf from the door but if this keeps up I might soon be an exindexer.
Marie
Date: Wed, 4 July 2007 14:23:41
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Rates, OUP & Information Exchange
This is all very cosy. Do I see conflict of interest forming in the air?
J
'OUP have been very generous in their sponsorship of SI conference this
year. They will be having a stall - i'm sure the person in charge of the
135
stall will be happy to discuss or at least pass on complaints.'
{Background:
John is quoting:
From: Michele Clarke <[email protected]>
To: Susan Bosanko <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Rates, OUP & Information Exchange
Date: 04/07/2007 14:10:56]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Royalty payments
Date: Mon, 9 July 2007 10:23:53
And remember Alec Guiness' 2% (or whatever) deal in Star Wars...
Trouble is that for every 'Star Wars' there is a thousand 'Invasion of the
Body Snatchers' which fall flat on their box office faces. Dial 999 and may
the Force be with you.
[Background:
John’s first paragraph quotes:
From: Jackie Speel <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Royalty payments
Date: 09/07/2007 10:15:39
Aspart of an extended thread with several subject tlines – indeed one could
perhaps call the thread never-ending]
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:23 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] SIdeline and publishers (was OUP comments - a
sortofsummary)
Unlike Drusilla, I am in the fortunate position of being old. I long ago
ceased to care what I say and whether people like it or not. So far as I am
concerned, rogues deserve everything they have coming to them and, for me,
saying so comes more into the 'pleasure' than the 'moral duty' category.
J
Drusilla wrote:We can restrict access to our list as much as we like, but that won't stop
publishers seeing what we've written. Email is an extremely unsafe method
for transmitting restricted information. Indexers have friends - and
colleagues - who are publishers ... All they have to do is press one key to
forward a derogatory message - no problem.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OUP and rates
Date: Fri, 20 July 2007 11:21:54
Well said and well done, Laurence. I hope you don't find yourself
toasted on a grid iron like you sanctified namesake.
J
[Background:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] OUP and rates
Date: 20/07/2007 11:09:06
My name is ........editor for medical books at Oxford University Press.
136
...... [someone] has recommended that I contact you. The details of the
book are as follows:
>>Extent: 554pp
>
>Pay: £665
===================================================
My reply was the following. Some of you may agree with it, others not.
Personally, I think I (and others) have more to gain than to lose by
being straightforward and honest.
--==================================================
Would love to work for you again (I used to work for you at lot some
time ago)
I'm relatively busy however at the moment so can't take it on
unfortunately.
Ironically, OUP have been the subject of conversation on our indexers
discussion group in the past week. I guess you know you pay rates well
below the average for medical texts from other publishers. I would
imagine this text is relatively technical (no?) and perhaps even double
column text. The other main medical publishers (e.g. Hodder, Elsevier)
offer around £2/page, sometimes more, and the better medical book
indexers (who are often in short supply) tend not to want to work for
OUP these days because of your low rates. I say this in the hope that
OUP will consider (if you are finding good indexers hard to get) raising
fees to match those recommended by the Society of Indexers.
Quoting from their website: As from 1 April 2007, the Society recommends
that indexing rates start from £18.50 an hour or approximately £2.00 a
page for an index to a straightforward text.
If you think of your fee of 665 and the *minimum rate* (which this book
would not really be), that would mean an indexer taking just 36 hours to
read and produce the finished product which is not very realistic.
I hope you don't mind me telling you this, and find this information of
use. As I said, OUP was an important client to me a decade or so back
and I would dearly love to work for you again. Do feel free to contact
me about anything you'd like to discuss.]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OUP rates - turning down work
Date: Fri, 20 July 2007 12:50:55
'... unfortunately as we are a not for profit organization'
'our budgets are a lot lower than other publishers ...'
The second statement is not a logical corollary of the first.
The most charitable gloss one can place on this is that it is down to us to
subsidise their public spirited enterprise. The only problem is that the
enterprise is the publication of the academic works of those who are paid
full time and already doing very nicely, thank you. A conclusion which is
spherical, hirsute and plural is largely inescapable. Make the blighters
index their own rubbish for nothing and see how they like it.
J
[Background:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] OUP rates - turning down work
137
Date: 20/07/2007 12:08:01
I got this reply:
=============
Many thanks for your email. I'm sorry that you can't take on this work,
but thank you for your comments. I do realize that our pay is somewhat
substandard compared to other publishers, but unfortunately as we are a
not for profit organization our budgets are a lot lower than other
publishers which makes it more difficult for us to be competitive with
pay.
We are however currently looking at improving the standard of our
indexing and pay through a project that has just started running here.
I will add your details to our pool of indexers so that my team can
contact you with offers of work.
==============
So it may help....]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OUP rates - turning down work
Date: Fri, 20 July 2007 13:13:09
'Making academics index their own books would lead to a serious
reduction in Senior Common Room sherry purchases.' Discuss. Do not
attempt to take port or Madeira whilst answering this question.
Candidates taking in brandy will be disqualified from the examination.
J
They are not a small group of hard-up academics working out of cramped
offices whatever they would like us all to believe!
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] A bit of fun [distinctly OT]
Date: Sun, 22 July 2007 13:19:03
Not many people know this but it could be of interest to copyright
enthusiasts. Another well-known work of fiction was re-written from the
point of view of a different section of the community under the title: 'The
Wind Done Gone.' The infringement litigation failed.
J
Subject: [SIdeline] Adverse weather [OT]
Date: Mon, 23 July 2007 10:29:12
Many commiserations to those suffering from the adverse weather. Odd
juxtaposition caused by switching radio stations at the instant I did:
'The best of today's weather will be ... the Duke of Edinburgh.'
J
Subject: [SIdeline] Nuisance telephone calls [OT]
Date: 24/07/2007 13:06:39
A while back - may be as long as a year ago - someone [could it have
been Sue B. or Janet S.?] mentioned a service which went some way
towards blocking silent calls. I've had British Gas three times on three
138
successive working days batting on about gas appliance cover and it's
beginning to get me down. Can anyone remind me of what ever it is I have
to do to stop it? Thanks.
J
Date: Tue, 24 July 2007 13:43:38
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re Iain' Comments
Speaking as an old dodderer with a waspish tongue, if it were me and I hope
it was not, I apologise wholeheartedly and withdraw unreservedly whatever
it might have been.
J
Dear All
Could I give my wholehearted support to Iain's recent comments about
messages which contain less than flattering remarks about postings by
members. I was speaking to a highly respected member of our profession very
recently, a person who has given much to the Society, much of it behind
the scenes.
He/she sent in a wholly innocent posting which was on the receiving end of
a highly sarcastic comment which upset him/her considerably. As a result
he/she has now resolved not to use Sideline for anything other than the
most bland statements, if at all. How very sad.
Perhaps it could be remembered that sarcastic and insulting atatements say
much more about the speaker than they do about the person spoken about.
Also, as a teacher of mine was wont to say many years ago "You have two
ears and one mouth, use them in that proportion".
Sorry to put a cat amongst the pigeons but I feel that there are times when
these things need saying.
Regards
Derek Copson
PS Could the rather quiet, nay silent, majority speak up from time to time
and shut up old dodderers like me.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Nuisance telephone calls [OT]
Date: 24/07/2007 14:19:32
I've just had them again and I am in a worse mood [even] than usual
because I have twisted my ankle and it hurts to walk to the phone. Why
do we not as a nation rise up against them [gammy legs and all]?
Geraldine reminds me that the number of the Silent Callguard Service is
0870 444 3969 though on the whole I still prefer the initiative adopted
by Mrs Hirst whilst warming also to Jane's suggestion and the
Moderator's legal/rational approach. Hard to decide ...
J
[Background:
From: Jane Read <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Nuisance telephone calls [OT]
Date: 24/07/2007 14:07:07
In our household they always seem to ring in the middle of Small
Daughter's bathtime.
139
As we are registered with the TPS, the correct thing to do is to find
out a) the name of the company and b) the name of the company who sold
them our telephone number and then write to the TPS with a formal
complaint. I don't usually have time to do that, but interrupting them
with 'Where did you get this number from? It's ex-directory,' often
shuts them up.
Alternatively, if we're not expecting any important calls, we say 'Just
a minute; I'll get the person you need to speak to', leave the phone
off the hook and do something more interesting for half an hour or so.
Then they are wasting their time, not ours.
Jane
--- Tony Hirst <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
After dashing in from the other end of the garden for the third time
that day my wife screamed down the phone and threatened the caller
with prosecution or worse. That was a couple of months ago and we
haven't had a call from British Gas since!]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Nuisance telephone calls [OT]
Date: 24/07/2007 16:29:55
'Being ex-directory should make no difference.'
Certainly true - which I discovered when I put a handset on the end of a
line I had previously used only for data over several years. Must have
been that all kinds of people had been dialling it during that period
without me knowing - when numbers have been dialled at random rather
than according to a list. What is more difficult to understand is why
they do it at all. Who takes any notice of spam other than to be
irritated by its arrival? This present sales push by British Gas must be
a complete and utter customer relations disaster. Equally, I have
reached the stage of avoiding darkening the doors of Lloyds TSB to avoid
the avalanche of cross-selling which meets me when all I want to do is
pay in a cheque (I do receive them sometimes).
Perhaps we should think a second time about our own marketing
activities?
J
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Christine Headley <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Nuisance telephone calls [OT]
Date: 24/07/2007 15:10:50
Being ex-directory should make no difference. My phone number is public
information and I am TPS registered. The TPS registration seems to be
working.
I am also Computer Officer for my constituency political party. The
party's computer data people run all phone numbers past the TPS list before
sending it out each year. My phone number comes up in red on my computer
screen. When I print out phone listings, numbers come up against some names
and 'TPS listed' against others, though I can go to the bother of finding
them if I really want to talk to them.
Luckily I'm not keen on telephone canvassing, though if it's this wet next
April I might change my mind.
Best wishes
140
Christine]
Subject: [SIdeline] Counterterrorism (OT)
Date: Wed, 25 July 2007 12:03:10
For those who may have an immediate interest in this, I am informed by
someone who can be expected to know that Mr Brown will make an important
statement on counterterrorism after PMQs today. PMQs usually finish at
1230. I dare say it will go out live on BBC News24.
J
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re Iain' Comments
I have become increasingly concerned as to the nature of what people
consider to be freedom of speech. We've witnessed madmen in pyjamas on the
rampage because of cartoons few of us have seen or care about and
justification of Holocaust denial because that's freedom of speech too though, I should be bound to say, I find it hard to value telling lies as a
freedom.
Armed with my new dictionary, I looked up 'sarcasm' and discover that its
origins are Greek - 'sarkazein' - meaning, 'to tear flesh like dogs.'
If the situation requires it that is what we must do: just so long as we
are sure that it does. On the whole, however, I think that we can argue
until the dogs have got bored and gone to sleep, and that is all well and
good, just so long as we choose to recall the words of someone I once loved
that only hostile relationships breed hostile arguments.
J
[Background:
Probably in response to:
From: Bill Johncocks <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Re Iain' Comments
Date: 25/07/2007 15:24:00
John J and Laurence have commented on this but, while Iain is of course
right about the guidelines, I find Derek's assertion harder to accept.
Essentially, Derek objects to:
>>> less than flattering remarks about postings by members
and Iain only to less than flattering remarks about . . . members. The
difference is crucial.
To be told someone had been discouraged from posting just isn't
good enough. Some people on SIdeline get hugely offended by anyone who
expresses a contrary opinion; others get a dusty response when they raise
questions they already had the resources to answer. Personally, if someone
posted to say indexes are better done by machines, I'd feel completely
justified in discouraging them fairly robustly, although of course I'd try
to be polite.
The other unsatisfactory aspect is Derek's use of the word
'sarcastic'. I sometimes think 'sarcasm' is how people with no sense of
irony describe wit. Just over a week ago at Roehampton, Liqun Dai gave us a
vivid glimpse into the real world: let's not stifle debate to protect those
who think that opening their email is pretty daring thing to do!
Bill]
141
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Roehampton in retrospect
Jackie wrote:
'There is a case to be argued #in certain fields# for the development a
specialised and conventionalised system of terminology.'
Trouble is that it is something else which flatters to deceive. A
suggested vocabulary is possibly helpful as guidance but not when it is a
mandatory straightjacket. It is also wrong-headed to apply a
methodology designed for a bibliographic database to BoB indexing. The two
are quite different. Even when a thesaurus was being used
exclusively for a database of journal articles, averaging I should guess
five terms per article irrespective of extent, it needed a single Queen Bee
to review every entry in order to ensure consistency. The problems are
compounded by hierarchies. I once came across the following:
(1) Doctors; Negligence
(2) Doctors; Professional negligence
(3) Medical negligence
as descriptors for the same story. Everything depended upon how well (or
not) the individual indexer knew the structure of the thesaurus. Note also,
that terms appear in combinations - which is ideal for a
bibliographic database but becomes a bit of a quagmire for BoB indexing.
Indeed, slavish adherence to the conventions of the system become of
overarching significance instead of genuine utility to the user. In
other words: an end in itself. Worse still, an essentially unachievable end
because the appropriateness of the index turns on the length and complexity
of the text rather than the depth and richness of the terminology one is
*allowed* to employ to analyse it. I am not even sure that indexes, like
loves which love a soldier bold, need be more uniform.
I was given a new dictionary for my birthday. The dust jacket speaks of:
'... the British National Corpus, a representative database containing over
100 million words of current written and spoken English.'
My, but that's a lot of words.
Subject: [SIdeline] British Gas [OT]
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:39:44
The last time British Gas tried to sell me something yesterday evening was
at five to eight. I followed Iain's lead. I asked to speak to Jasmine's
manager and told him exactly how much delight I was taking in their calls.
Just have to see if it makes a difference.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Attendees? [OT]
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:52:31
Roger wrote:
'A parallel to this is the case of the cheque.
-
142
You pay me with a cheque
You are the payer, I am the payee (cheques sometimes have payee printed on
the first line).'
As it happens, and without wishing to prolong the discussion
unnecessarily, I've always had trouble with mortgagor/mortgagee. Owing the
Halifax money makes me the mortgagor - and there are few more passive
states than that.
J
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Roger Steer <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Attendees?
Date: 16/08/2007 09:33:14]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Attendees? [more and more OT but who cares?]
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:13:34
Whilst we should not be profane, may we use 'freak' and 'freaking'?
There is a charming novelette, perhaps slightly biographical, by a late MP
who had been an ordinary seaman during WWII. He apologies for the language
because he felt constrained to use 'flick' and 'flicking' rather than the
Anglo-Saxon original. I should be bound to say that it sounds altogether
more expressive: like Father Ted saying, 'feck' ...;-)
Turns out that there was one sailor who distained all obscene language and
whose sayings became quite a vogue. Eg.: 'You besom! You've snookered my
blue jean.'
At the year's end, I will award a 'Round the Horne' prize for the best
double entendre of 2007. I am looking for something which is a right
badger.
J
Subject: [SIdeline] INDEX.doc
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:21:07
Just been speaking to a TS about a current disaster (the fault of
neither of us, I hasten to add) and he happened to mention that two
indexers had once submitted indexes with the file name 'INDEX.doc' on the
same day. The unfortunate consequence was that the second was
allowed to overwrite the first and two books went out with the same
index. I think that the lesson is obvious.
>From start to finish, I always use a unique file name for any job. Thus,
if the title of the book is, 'A Right Load of Rubbish', I'd give it the
name, 'ARightLoadofRubbish'. It's worked so far.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Reply to insult from publisher
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:44:16
When I had a proper job, I did find that some works were all but useless as
reference sources without a comprehensive index and it would have
influenced my purchasing decisions where there was a choice. Often there
was no choice. It was claimed, however, that the legal author of one
143
loose-leaf himself consulted a rival publication . because it had the
*better* index.
J
> But in the fifty years of its existence, has the SI discovered any
> evidence to substantiate that readers switch because there is no index?
> If not, it is not really honest to say this.
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: John Sampson <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Reply to insult from publisher
Date: 31/08/2007 08:56:02
Hello "...and add that the professional indexer's fee is negligible compared
to the loss in revenue as readers switch to buying books published by their
rivals."
But in the fifty years of its existence, has the SI discovered any evidence
to substantiate that readers switch because there is no index? If not, it
is not really honest to say this.
Also, shouldn't this publisher be named?
Regards
_John Sampson_]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Names of British newspapers/magazines
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 15:35:04
There used to be a nice play on words as to the names of the two
principal Soviet newspapers that there was no truth in news and no news in
truth. Nothing may have changed in this manor as to whether papers might be
owned by the late Captain Bob or the present Dirty Digger. Even the Daily
Torygroan which, in the best traditions of the late lamented Bill Deedes,
yet maintains an exemplary standard of journalism has perpetrated some
accounts which are singular travesties of what actually happened. Drawing a
veil over that, the examples listed seem to me to be much as any reasonable
reader would expect to find them.
Was there/is there still a publication called 'Willings Press Guide'?
J
PS Anyone remember that wonderful monologue (Kenneth Williams?) of the
old newspaper seller and which of the three London evening papers (as
there then were) sold better on each evening?
[Background:
This appears to be a response to the following, although the time
signatures don’t support that idea:
From: Pierke ISB&Index <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Names of British newspapers/magazines
Date: 04/09/2007 16:08:37]
Subject: [SIdeline] Sweet Dreams, Baby
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:54:27
The end of the book might not have been the first place I should have
suggested they stick it. All the same, there is a nettle to be grasped
144
here: why some of our number find them the sweetest thing since Willie
Wonker's Chocolate Factory. We need to understand how this is.
Presently, the two viewpoints appear to be irreconcilable.
J
>
>
>
>
>
To add insult to injury, the editor in question said that in view of the
urgent nature of the job (because the academic editors decided at the
last minute that they wouldn't after all do the indexing), all they
wanted was a basic names and subjects index: 'nothing fancy - just so
that we have something to put at thge end of the book'.
> If that's all an index means to them, Maureen's suggested group will
> have a lot to do! Good luck!
> Meg
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing fees
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 19:01:58
Excuse me please but I feel an attack of vehemence coming on. Read
recently that the average cow in the European Union makes two dollars a day
(in subsidies) whereas many people in the world, possibly the majority,
subsist on one dollar a day. Now, because we make what ever we do make
alters nothing in this arrangement. Those who accept a dollar a day do so
because it is a dollar a day better than not having a dollar a day. It's
got nothing to do with some sort of inexorable economic logic
which we cannot alter. It's about politics and being stuck in a given place
at a given time. There's only one reason why people are exploited:
it's because the exploiters are able to get away with it. In short, it's a
power relationship. There is no defining moral difference: it is only a
question of the degree and extent of the exploitation. We may not be
starving - yet - but because one is more or less able to survive doesn't
affect the nature of the relationship. There are enough scoundrels in the
world without giving the class of them any further encouragement.
Political rant over.
J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Patricia has a valid point. It's fine to insist on top money if you're
in the fortunate position of being well established with lots of regular
clients and can afford to refuse work.
Like Patricia I'm not in such a position. I also seem to remember a
previous airing of this topic where someone suggested that if the client
is paying silly money, the client gets what they pay for i.e. a less
exhaustively indexed book. No doubt the moral rights and wrongs of that
will be contested, but ultimately I index for a living not to pursue an
art form.
Personally, I would love the chance to expand myself and put my all
into an index which would win awards and make my name in publishing
circles - I'm not being facetious, I do mean it - but sadly I don't
think most publishers set much store by perfection and certainly aren't
prepared to pay for it.
The alternative to supplying fair value for money is working as a labour
of love and, though I'm reluctant to say it, my commitment to high
standards in indexing stops short of being taken advantage of.
> Bill Jack
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Subject Specialisms (knowing too much)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:02:50
145
If one is to be human I think that it is probably impossible to avoid this,
the more especially because, until you get dug in, you don't know what you
are going to find. One is entitled to be angry too. One that got me a week
or so back was that US Federal subsidies to already sufficiently wealthy
cotton producers (some 20,000 in number) exceeds the market value of the
crop by about 30% - and also exceeds all of US foreign aid to Sub-Saharan
Africa.
At one time I wrote summaries of Court of Appeal transcripts and I
didn't look forward to the C-S Abuse cases one little bit.
J
'I guess it was more about being too emotionally involved, rather than
knowing too much. Has anyone else had an experience like that?'
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Caroline Diepeveen <[email protected]>
To: 'Jane Read' <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Subject Specialisms (knowing too much)
Date: 07/09/2007 11:41:59
Who quotes:
From: Jane Read <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Subject Specialisms
Date: 07/09/2007 09:39:20
Who quotes:
From: John Silvester <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Subject Specialisms
Date: 07/09/2007 08:31:12
Quoting Patricia Hyams quoting Jeremy Bowman among a meandering thread with
many diffierent subject lines…]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OT internet searches
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 06:35:13
Elisabeth wrote:
following a thread to a rare breeds sale catalogue I was invited to
"bare with us"; I bet the rest of you didn't know that livestock
auctioneers were such a jolly bunch.
I would be reluctant to describe CUP as a jolly bunch but they did once
extend to some of us a similar invitation. Myself, I am of much the same
mind as one of the actresses in 'Calendar Girls' that there were bits of
her she wanted no one to see - save that, in my case, it's nearly all of
me.
J
Subject: RE: [sideline] alamein
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:53:07
A quick riffle through the books I have suggests Alamein, El for the
146
battle but El Alamein for the place [Monty's title being after the place
*not* the battle]. To make a confusing situation worse, the place can also
be transliterated as Al 'Alamayn whilst the more famous battle was the
second of that name (the first being known otherwise as Alam Halfa).
J
[Background:
John is responding to:
From: Anne McCarthy <[email protected]>
Subject: [sideline] alamein
Date: 12/09/2007 15:24:04
I have here a book (not a military text) which uses Alamein and El Alamein
almost equally when referring to the battle. Could the military (or other)
wisdom please advise me on which is correct/preferable. I am having no
success in finding a definitive answer. Many thanks
Anne McCarthy]
Subject: RE: [sideline] alamein
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:00:10
PS. Sorry, got it round my neck again. Was trying to say that Monty
named himself after the battle when it should really have been after the
place!
J
Subject: RE: [sideline] Medical terminology
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:00:39
Could someone advise me please? I have an assemblage of papers on
tobacco use including two studies which I imagine were among the first to
find a link between smoking and lung cancer. The title of the first (US)
refers to 'bronchiogenic carcinoma', the second (British) to 'carcinoma of
the lung'. Both use the expression 'lung cancer' in the text. Given that
both date from 1950, what is/are the most useful term/terms for a modern
audience?
TIA,
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Lung cancer
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:10:57
Thanks for excellence guidance on and off list.
J
Hello I think 'bronchogenic carcinoma' would be the preferred term in medical
papers on the link with smoking. One might cross-refer from 'lung cancer'.
Regards
_John Sampson_
147
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Large strings of locators
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:17:46
Interesting that Sue should say this. Once or twice recently I've
thought there has been an anomaly and I have put it down to my having done
something daft because that's usefully an appropriate working assumption.
Is there some way of contriving things such that 'reply to all' only means
a reply to the List and 'reply' is an off list reply to the person
concerned?
J
Now this is a bit puzzling - I only hit 'reply', not 'reply to all' when I
replied to Pierke. Checking back in the sent box, I really didn't send it
to SIdeline, and I've not received my comments to her as a SIdeline
message, but Chris obviously has. But the other day I didn't get the start
of the SIdeline El Alamein discussion. Anyone any idea what's going on????
Sue Bosanko
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Formula One
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:29:59
I dunno but all the romance has gone out of it since racing cars looked
liked racing cars and the red Ferrari cars took the chequered flag in
formation 1-2-3 separated by the diameter of a wheel. Mind you, I speak of
a time when the British runners could come in 1-2-3 in the one mile race.
Ainsi soit-il.
J
[Background:
In response to:
From: Susan Bosanko <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Formula One
Date: 16/09/2007 11:15:53
Anyone interested (or not) in motor sport may be aware of the rumpus
concerning McLaren and Ferrari. The following extract is from the official
FIA World Motor Sport Council Decision on the case, made on 13th September.
"7.2 Evidence was submitted at the 13 September WMSC meeting by McLaren's
Engineering Director, Mr. Lowe, that the dossier of Ferrari information
found in Coughlan's possession did not contain information of particular
use or interest to McLaren on the basis that the McLaren car was
significantly different to the Ferrari car. This submission was apparently
made on the basis of the review of the index to the dossier of Ferrari
documents (Mr. Lowe having stated that he had not seen the dossier
itself)."
Anyone know who indexes for Ferrari?
Sue Bosanko]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] long strings - prevalence of Foucault
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:45:52
Jane wrote:
'Don't you just love M. Foucault'
148
Pas exactement. I have just read the refreshing words of his late
Majesty King James I: ' ... wee that disdaine to imitate the manners of our
neighbour France (having the stile of the first Christian Kingdom)...'
These things appear to go in cycles. Before that it was Jurgen
before that Karl Marx. At one point, Jacques Derrida seemed to
fast on the inside with Immanuel Kant still making good ground
'un. When it comes to incomprehensible continental philosophy,
still seems to be open.
Habermas and
be coming up
for an old
the race
J
PS. All reference librarians must, at some point, have met their
Waterloo. In my case, it was a Japanese student anxious to be informed
about that well-known German philosopher 'Heggair'. I got there eventually.
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: jane HORTON <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] long strings - prevalence of Foucault
Date: 17/09/2007 11:20:33
Don't you just love M. Foucault. A few years ago he seemed to get into
every index I did, whatever the subject, but the vogue has waned somewhat
and I can get through two or three indexes without him now.
He's just the kind of name to produce strings as authors seem to like to
pop his name in even if it's not that relevant or informative. And some of
his theories aren't the easiest to get to grips with, so avoiding
subheadings avoids having to encapsulate what he's on about. (I do know
he's dead by the way.)
Best wishes,
Jane
In response to Howard Cooke]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] long strings - prevalence of Foucault
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:47:21
I just knew that something would unite us eventually. I'd expected it to be
Dreamy Spires UP rates of pay: I should not have anticipated French
philosophy. Did any one else approach the last Proms season with renewed
enthusiasm only to fall by the wayside or sink into the slough of despond
of what was French, an wholly incomprehensible row, or both?
[The things praised up by people with strange tee shirts and peculiar hair
styles who seem only to be dragged out on such occasions].
Meanwhile, back at the plot, when I used books to find things out, an index
with 20 numbers against a term which would take 20 times as long to follow
up as time I had to spare made me a very, very unhappy rabbit.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re Post Office cutbacks
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:39:57
Comrades!
I greatly fear that this is but another example of the old adage that what
we don't use we lose. The days are gone when it only arrived because a
Royal Mail postie carried it to one's door. Equally, reflect upon what is a
149
'real' piece of personal correspondence - composed by a person who knows
your identity and in an envelope with a stamp on it:
how much of that do you get? The last piece of such correspondence I
received was a printout of an email message from my old neighbour who had
been unable to send it by dematerialised means!
Today I ordered some first aid supplies with a free phone call and a
courier will deliver the stuff tomorrow. I could have filled up a form,
stamped an envelope, enclosed a cheque and taken some much needed exercise
walking to a post box - and waited at least a day longer for the fulfilment
of the order: but I didn't.
J
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
Sent: 17 September 2007 17:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Re Post Office cutbacks
Dear All
Don't you just miss the dear old Post Office as it was (and will
probably never be again). In deepest Oxfordshire many years ago we got our
second post at 09.00, long before the first at around 11.30. The reason
being that there was less of it to deliver.
When staying with friends in Ottawa we were amazed to find no
collections or deliveries between 15.30 on Friday and Monday morning. The
local post was sorted overnight guess where? Amsterdam! Please do not tell
the PO or they will outsource the sorting to Timbuktu (a nice place from
which friends have recently returned from holiday but a bit off the beaten
track).
Indeed we live in a wonderful world.
I can claim never to have indexed the noble personages mentioned but did
once get landed with a book on the psychoanalysis of God written by a
vicar. His knowledge of both subjects was distinctly dodgy.
Regards
Derek Copson
Disgusted of Cheltenham - yes, we have those wretched stickers as well.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Role of the indexer
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:53:47
We are not getting off to a very good start today, are we? Approved of by
porn stars but disapproved of by journal editors. Anybody got any good
news?
J
Excerpt from email correspondence forwarded to me by typesetter:
Journal editor to Author:
"Dear x, Just a last query regarding your article. These [sic] were
picked up by the indexer of all people (!) and concern alternative names
for the same person ..."
150
Does the (!) indicate his surprise that (a) the indexer actually has a
rain, or (b), as my husband more charitably suggests, that this mistake was
found only at the indexing stage?
Ann
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Ann Hudson <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Role of the indexer
Date: 18/09/2007 08:33:48]
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:33:58
Subject: [SIdeline] Cleaning Mice
It has been visited upon me that failure to clean out mice can cause
them to stop working. I keep a paint brush by me which is good for
dusting keyboards and screens and will get the fluff out of a mouse.
Removing the skankiness from the little wheels inside, however, is a
more intractable business. Any ideas?
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Cleaning Mice
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:09:25
I have enjoyed this discussion. As it happens, I do keep the mouse mat
clean, I have no pets and the only hairy/dusty object near the computer is
me.
The wireless mouse which came with the wireless key board I am using is
like me too - as my father used to say - because it rarely wants to work
(and it is a replacement for the first one which wouldn't work at all) so I
plugged in one with a tail and it has given me no grief at all until the
wheels became skanky and wouldn't grip.
My dentist made me buy some of those little brushes, which I have never got
on with for the purpose for which they are intended, so I will take up
Maureen's excellent advice. I never emerged from the fountain pen age
either so I cannot adopt James' professional solution.
And now for my next challenge. I wasted upwards of eleven squids on
those Breath Right strips which I cannot use because I have developed an
allergic reaction to the adhesive. Alternative uses?
J
Not so much of a problem with a modern (optical) mouse, surely? Mine
doesn't have any accessible innards.
If you must use a mechanical mouse, use a mouse mat or other clean
surface, keep it clean and keep cat/dog/gerbil and other hairy/dusty
objects as far away as possible.
But I would strongly recommend upgrading to something newer and better
(yes, newer can sometimes be better). Elderly mice can become cranky and
insensitive, causing at best irritation and at worst RSI.
151
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Kathleen Lyle <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Cleaning Mice
Date: 18/09/2007 17:11:39]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Mice (with or without wires, batteries,
pretty red lights, etc)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:05:30
This seems to have become a topic which is quite beyond me. The label on
the bottom of this thing I've got - which doesn't work - says it is a
'wireless optical mouse' and the keyboard says it is a 'wireless keyboard.'
I don't know whether anything was lost/gained here in the translation from
the original Chinese. When the what ever it is without a wire did work, the
functionality was no different from the one with a wire. Well, not quite
true because the cursor now stays when I put it.
With the other thing it would wander off around the screen usually
ending up in the top-right corner.
As it happens, I've three computers each with a mouse with a wire and they
all have a two buttons and a wheel. And the all work. As with anything else
which isn't broken, I'm ill disposed to try and mend it.
J
Thanks for making this misunderstanding explicit - I couldn't fathom how
the topic had swerved from optical mice to wireless mice.
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Kathleen Lyle <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Cleaning Mice
Date: 19/09/2007 10:23:50]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] bogged down in terminology
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:21:24
Quoting from secondary sources is a well-known device of the idle and need
not be encouraged - or else it is mere pretension. Can be safely or even
profitably ignored.
J
Hello All,
I have an author who is using everybody else's terminology in quotes.
Possibly not the best examples: 'policy advocacy coalition',
'revolving door' politics, and many many more. This is done a lot
throughout the book. Do I keep the quotes in the index?
Thanks for all the help so far and in future,
Pam
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Royal Mail strikes update
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:37:17
152
Pace those of you married to accountants, it is also continually strange
the number who end up doing time for having their fingers in the till.
I've known one or two.
J
Bill wrote:
An accountant, to adapt Wilde, Is someone who knows the cost of
everything and the value of nothing and it's accountants, not strikers, who
are making Britain an awful place to have to live and work.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Royal Mail strikes update
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:00:50
C'est la lutte finale
Groupons-nous, et, demain
L'Internationale
Sera le genre humain
... I wish.
J
I expect I have offended a
I am sick of the bourgeois
water, but wish to believe
points out that their feet
number of people, but I really don't care.
complacency of people who have their noses above
they are on dry land and so revile anyone who
are wet.
er, that's it.
-- Janet
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Royal Mail strikes update
Date: 24/09/2007 12:39:00]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Royal Mail strikes update
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:27:24
Thank you Bill, Janet, Christine and Sue.
Today I may not have re-invented myself, I may not even have
re-discovered myself but I am at least re-invigorated.
J
Sue wrote:
Me too (and no apologies for the "me too" either). For what happens to ununionised labour, see today's Guardian, which has a long article on the
replacement of unskilled permanent staff with agency staff (lower paid, no
employment rights). Interestingly, the one place in the article where there
was a strike (and an effective one) was a publishers.
Sue Bosanko
(former member of Dillon's University Bookshop strike committee)
153
PS Actually, that was an effective strike. It lasted all of about 3
days, and succeeded in preventing the amalgamation of departments which
would have led to a consequent loss of slightly higher salaries for those
considered department heads.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Wealth
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:07:08
Wealth is a stock of goods existing at a certain time conforming to the
following requirements:
(1) possessing utility (yielding satisfaction);
(2) having a monetary value;
(3) in limited supply;
(4) transfer of ownership possible.
Money is *not* wealth: it merely represents government debt.
[After J.L. Hanson].
J
What is wealth, exactly?
Regards
_John Sampson_
[Background:
Quoting from:
From: John Sampson <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Wealth
Date: 25/09/2007 09:39:15
Hello –
Now that SIdeline has decidedely moved away from indexing as its subject
matter, I would be interested to understand the thinking behind the
statement that wealth cannot be created. What is wealth, exactly?
Regards
_John Sampson_]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Wealth
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:35:55
To answer John and Roger together ...
Natural resources such as oil and uranium fulfil the definition 'at a
certain time', that is, now - whether or not they did in the past or may
indeed in the future. Helium 3, or anything else on the Moon, might become
wealth in the future but only appears to fulfil the third criterion in the
here and now.
A debt security could be regarded as a chose in action - not wealth but
something which might be traded for wealth (a chose in possession). If you
hold shares worth £1 a piece today, however, but they are worth either £2
154
or 50p tomorrow doesn't make the country either more or less wealthy: the
national wealth remains the same.
A 'good' is a commodity or a service for which there is a demand (what will
be bought at a particular price). Thus, an index is a good if someone is
willing to pay valuable consideration for it but, if no one does, it isn't.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Wealth
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:56:00
Not necessarily. However much the culture may have been enriched there can
only be wealth if the criteria as previously stated have been met.
Now, do I recall the words of someone on the Isle of Skye who referred to
the price of everything and the value of nothing? It's like that.
This could be the point at which we came in.
J
Jackie wrote:
Does setting up a local history group and trainee indexers looking for some
experience, thereby creating a local newspaper index create wealth?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Wealth
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:24:5x
Not (yet) on my conscience. The one I quoted was merely a senior
lecturer in economics at Huddersfield Tech though it is indeed curious that
they should both be connected with Huddersfield. Then again, I've been to
Huddersfield so perhaps nothing should surprise me.
J
Janet wrote:
'Amazingly diverted by John Jeffries citing Lord Hanson, the famed
Thatcherite asset-stripper.'
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Wealth
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:0…
The definition of a cynic. Lord Darlington in Lady Windermere's Fan
(Oscar Wilde).
J
What was the quote 'Knowing the price of everything and the value of
nothing'?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] another troublesome index
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 15:40:38
'Telling an author that Buenos Aires isn't in Brazil is harder than
155
telling a new mother she's produced an ugly baby'.
There are many things I miss not about office life and one of them was the
extraordinary proclivity a former female employee would have for bringing
in the product of her abdomen for others to admire. And what there was to
admire is more than I can say. And then, of course, you didn't dare venture
into the staff room to fix a cup of coffee for knowing what sight lay in
wait. But I digress.
A month or so back, I pointed out that for an author to suggest that
bronze was an alloy or copper and iron would at least tend to undermine
former understandings of pre-history but I bet no one took any notice.
Same author, a propos not a lot at all, included Sherlock Holmes in a list
of historic British notables: I let that one be. It goes without saying
that it was a book on the pseudo-science of management. But at least the
idiot didn't think he could index ... or perhaps he made more money out of
*not* indexing :o)
J
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Bill Johncocks <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] another troublesome index
Date: 29/09/2007 14:42:34]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: Walking on water
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:54:08
I have long felt that the sheer incomprehensibility of our language is
God's greatest blessing upon the English. Why should we be like the French
and know what we wish to say when we already know what we mean?
I remember a difficult conversation with a disbelieving seccie that
there could not be a plural of 'agenda' because it was a plural already
[with neuter nouns in Latin, remember what I say, the nominative is the
same as the accusative and their plurals end in 'a'].
Then again, the plural of 'child' should be 'childer' which makes
'children' a double plural.
J (a very tickled old trout)
PS. Have you ever thought that you can fill up a form, fill it in or
fill it out - but you cannot fill it down which would seem the most
logical?
;o)
From: "john jeffries" <[email protected]>
To: "'Iain D. Brown \(SIdeline Moderator\)'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: Walking on water
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:29:59
Thank you, I see. I had not been aware that the circumstantial evidence was
so strong. The milk was off this morning but at least there was no trout in
it - whether winged or finned ;o)
J
-----Original Message-----
156
From: Iain D. Brown (SIdeline Moderator) [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 03 October 2007 11:19
To: john jeffries
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] RE: Walking on water
> Ever one to be caught with the tickling, what is this about the
> flying trout?
John, I'm so glad you asked. :-)
A trout is a List Moderator's typical punishment for transgressing
list guidelines.
Perhaps best if I direct you to take a peek at
http://www.indexers.org.uk/index.php?id=424 where you can see the
trout (in full smellovision) and read a history of trouts (flying
and sedentary).
<G>
Best wishes,
Iain.
From: "john jeffries" <[email protected]>
To: "'Iain D. Brown \(SIdeline Moderator\)'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: Walking on water
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:46:32
Ever one to be caught with the tickling, what is this about the flying
trout?
J
To: "Sideline" <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:08:19
Can any one tell me how to locate expressions in italics using Adobe
Reader ver.8? Nothing I can think of seems to want to work.
TIA,
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Adobe Reader - Italics
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:34:24
Thanks. How this came about was that I came across an unfamiliar
expression early on and wanted to know whether it was discussed
elsewhere in the text. It would appear to be the case that an expression in
italics cannot be found *at all*. In other words, like my history, a
complete blank. Seems a serious drawback to me. I even tried to copy and
paste into the search box and that won't work either.
J
Kathleen wrote:
157
I don't think there's any way of doing this. Neither the Find or the
Search facility, in either Reader or Acrobat, recognizes formatting
(italic, bold subscript, colour, etc.).
It is possible to tell whether the file contains any italics (File,
Properties, Fonts) but that doesn't tell you where they are.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Adobe Reader - Italics: a palinode
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:27:33
Apologies for being a time-waster. The expression I had been reading as
'helman [in italics] generics' is really 'he/man' (were it to have been
rendered in upright). No wonder I couldn't find it. Sorry. But I do wonder
how many others will be equally baffled.
J
To: "'sideline'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] IB
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:48:37
Bill wrote:
'He'll be a hard act to follow'.
Assuredly, we need all the vibrant wit we can find as well as the
vitality to fly the trout as required :o)
J
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 12:14:47
Subject: [SIdeline] Little green lights
Hello,
I have an ntl cable modem in front of me. In the normal run of things, four
lights labelled: power, enet, sync and ready are on and steady.
When things are happening, enet, send and rec flicker. This morning,
from time to time, these three have been flickering 19 to the dozen and I
haven't been doing anything. Should I care? The lights on the Linksys have
also been flickering but the twin-screen icon on the tool bar does nothing.
TIA,
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] a gem from my editor received today 20th
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:00:40
The short answer to that is that the subsequent imposition of an earlier
return date cannot be read into a pre-existing contract without more. An
essential ingredient of contract is the agreement of the parties and
unilateral variation is most likely to constitute repudiation. To conclude
otherwise would be to legitimate slavery.
J
-----Original Message-----
158
From: Jackie Speel
Sent: 20 November 2007 14:23
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] a gem from my editor received today 20th
Question - to what extent does the provision of a date form part of a
contract? Given that one might have passed the job if one had the earlier
return by date - whether other work commitments or totally impractical
timescale.
Jackie Speel
--- moira greenhalgh <[email protected]> wrote:
> Have just received this little gem from my editor:>
> "I've just looked back at my brief to you and I noticed that the return
date I specified was 30 November when actually I meant 20 November. Is this
mistake on my part going to cause a problem?"
> Well actually , yes it will cause a problem, mainly as I haven't started
it yet!!!
>
> bw
> Moira
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Proof Copy
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:10:01
Chances are we've most of us have been cursed for failing to take out
account of the changes made to the text *AFTER* we have done the index.
Not many people know this, but one publisher abandoned a system of
indexing quality control because the quality controller had become known as
a broken record for saying: what do you expect if you have the book indexed
before the text is finally settled? It's a process known as the search for
the guilty and the punishment of the innocent. Curiously, one inhabitant of
an Helvetic rural residence went so far as to say that it was the
responsibility of the freelance indexer to chase the desk editor to
discover what later changes might have been made to the text even after the
index had been submitted.
Schedules being as they are, however, first proofs are what you
invariably get ... if you are so lucky and it is not copy(un)-edited
manuscript.
J
-----Original Message----From: Rosemary Anderson
Sent: 21 November 2007 11:09
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Proof Copy
I'd be grateful for any advice on what I'm working on at the moment. I am
doing a large index from copy that states that it is Uncorrected Proof
Copy. This strikes me as a bit dangerous and I've never come across it
before. Am I right to worry, or is it normal practice?
Rosemary
159
J
Subject: RE: [Sideline] OT - doing bird? (Was Proof copy)[Scanned]
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:28:41
I cherish an expensively produced card from a local garden landscape
firm which, amongst a number of specialities, undertakes to construct
"pagodas". Unfortunately, my back garden is very small, planning consent
difficult to obtain and Buddhist monks are seldom to be seen on the streets
of Oadby.
J
Anyone who wants an unusual beauty treatment - Boots the Chemist are
selling "Callous Removal Cream"
Chris Boot
To: "Sideline" <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:18:00
Remember my mate whose job had been delayed? You'll like this: a little bit
but not a lot.
"Just received a delivery from [name deleted to protect the guilty] via
courier - the [law] book I have been waiting for. So I signed for it and
opened the plastic coating which was addressed to me. Opened the envelope
inside and found a big wad of Christmas Music - checked the envelope and
found it was addressed to the Music Librarian at [a nearby] University."
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] circumstances that merit exclusion of an index
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:54:07
Sue wrote:
"The ones that annoy me most for their lack of indexes are the Oxford
Companions."
And the same is true of many a work of reference where to establish an
answer you need to know it already. For example, with many a
biographical dictionary, if you know that I.K. Brunel planned the
Clifton Suspension Bridge what you already know is readily confirmed.
But, if you want to know who was responsible for that celebrated bridge,
you have all the frustration of knowing that the answer is at your finger
tips - it's just that it is a needle in a haystack.
Seems to me that this is an issue about depth of indexing rather than
whether there should be an index at all. I'd suppose that an index to a
workshop manual, for example, would only be useful were it as detailed as
say a Concordance to Holy Writ. In other words, what would give such an
index any utility at all would fail the conventional "passing mention"
test. Interesting.
J
[Background:
John is quoting:
160
From: Susan Bosanko <[email protected]>
To: 'Roger Bennett', 'Pierke ISB&Index', [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] circumstances that merit exclusion of an index
Date: 29/11/2007 12:09:07]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] [OT] A problem that I have
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 08:44:41
Here are a selection of entries from a current account I operated on
behalf of my mother:
28 Jan Received from ZX755003A AA 012
Payment: ZX755003A AA 012
(2528.80)
Bank Giro Credit
Advice
228.80
29 Jan Paid Referral Fee
(25.00)
30 Jan Payment: ZX755003A AA 012
(228.80)
Received: Paid Referral Fee
Received: Error 28/1/04
Advice
Advice
Advice
25.00
2528.80
5 Mar Overdraft Interest
(0.96)
Now shall I tell you what it all means?
The DWP paid a benefit of 228.90 in error, 2528.80 was clawed back and then
the bank charged me 25.00 for writing to tell me I was overdrawn.
Two days later all the transactions were reversed. The points to note are
that it is difficult to understand what had happened; very difficult to
grasp who was involved; and, most importantly, it goes on without one's
knowledge. There could have been all kinds of problems if direct debits had
fallen due in between the error and its rectification - and I didn't
actually receive the letter until after it had been rectified.
And yes, I decided to pass on the 96p. And no, I didn't receive an
apology. Indeed, when I went to the bank, I gained the distinct
impression it was considered my fault for breathing.
J
Subject: [SIdeline] More grief than I need
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:14:08
"Looking at that the invoice you just gave me I’m afraid HR/Payroll will
insist on treating this as a payment for work carried out, so that means
they will require documentary evidence of John Jeffries right to work in
the UK i.e. a copy of his passport and visa / work permit (if applicable).
Also, if he has an NI number, they=92ll want it. Sorry to be a pest, but
rules is rules."
This is from SOAS, University of London. I have played the game before and
last time I had to threaten to sue. Their tone seems to be that you are
either a company (in which case they may pay you) or else a dodgy foreigner
who entered the country illegally (in which case they'll see you damned).
Any one else had this problem?
161
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] More grief than I need
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:41
Many thanks to colleagues on and off for helpful and supportive
comments.
Following Zeb's suggestion, I did indeed ring HMRC and spoke to an
intelligent and courteous person who is going to do her best to send me
some appropriate documentation. At least HMRC employ people with brains if
it is more than can be said for the University of London.
I don't expect to see my money before Easter (if at all) because, so
far, I have only had to render the invoice twice. Last time it required
three because they lost the other two. And then they said they were only
prepared to pay on an "original" (think about it). At least this time I am
not called upon to turn up at their door *before* I start work (think about
it) armed with my passport, birth certificate, work permit and a bull
signed by all three popes testifying that I arrived neither in a container
from the far east, on foot through the Channel Tunnel from a French refugee
camp nor yet on the last cruiser from the Alpha Centauri star system.
I have thought of sending them a copy of my family tree because I can trace
my ancestry to a pauper settled under the Poor Law in 1690 (no change
there). Rags to rags in seven generations.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] More grief than I need
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:12:46
Roger wrote:
"because the rest of the time they are working flat-out on other
matters"
which may be a fine explanation but, equally, it isn't our problem. One
might, for example, contemplate the attitude of the Halifax were I to tell
them that I am far too busy on more significant matters than to be bothered
with settling their tedious demands for mortgage repayments. On as cold a
day as this, I suspect it would cut no ice at all.
It should be further noted that, exiguous as their pay might be,
employees do seem to get paid at the end of the month: I wish I could say
the same.
J
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Roger Steer <[email protected]>
To: 'Sideline' <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] More grief than I need
Date: 12/12/2007 12:23:51]
Subject: [SIdeline] A bit of a rum one this ...
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:12:04
Got a collection of essays - stuff all presumably published elsewhere representing a lifetime of exertion by a very eminent political scientist.
Thing is that he is not to be relied upon to spell a name correctly (and
162
that includes US Presidents). It's actually far worse than the usual. Any
suggestions of mine are unlikely to be warmly received. So, what do I do?
Do I use reference books and give the names as they ought to be or render
the names as given? I can see a proof reader cursing the incompetent
indexer for misspelling the names when the author *must* be right. I have a
horrible feeling that this is one where I'll never do right for doing wrong
and always do wrong for doing right. Any ideas?
J
PS In every other respect he is singularly good value for money. He even
quotes a reviewer of his work who said: "There is something in what you
say, but not much."
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] A bit of a rum one this ...
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:58:39
Once again, thanks to colleagues for sensible and helpful advice on and off
list.
And, whilst I am about it, thanks for the good comradeship throughout the
year. It means a lot.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] sideline: [OT] spyware/AV scanners
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:02:14
I am really glad that Laurence has raised this issue because if ever the
were a need for some informed, serious and impartial advice it is about
this.
I use the following:
Ad-Aware SE [free]
Spybot-Search & Destroy 1.4 [free]
AVG 7.5 Internet Security [paid for - but not so much].
When they catch up with threats they seem to be different threats. The only
reason I have them at all is because the lad who understands these things
[Anyone else old enough to remember the Navy Lark?] put them up for me. It
is very tough when, like Manuel, you know northing.
What I have noticed is that it is by no means difficult to own a machine
just for using to see whether it has suffered from any threats.
I know I am paranoid, and I know I am superstitious, but I do sometimes
think that the rosary beads I have draped over my monitors save me as well
as anything (in a position to recommend a reliable source and they are
decorative too).
This is not to say that I am averse to hearing about some science.
[Background:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] sideline: [OT] spyware/AV scanners
Date: 18/12/2007 11:18:54
Recommendations please for free, easily used on-line scanners for AV and
malware (ideally combined)… I have my own installed products but I've seen
it recommended to get secondary opinions (=online scans). I've tried one or
163
two and already picked up more threats than my installed AVG AV and spyware
have.]
164
2008
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] More grief than I need [OT] Academic bureaucracy
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 16:14:53
Happy New Year everyone!
Nothing, however, appears to have changed. Whilst the poor down-trodden
souls at SOAS have been paid three times since I did a job of work for that
ignoble and unlearned institution, I have not. And do you know? I have
insufficient sympathy for them to furnish out a bathing suit for Twiggie.
Hard for some of you to accept this, I know ... but there it is.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] strings
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:17:04
Pam wrote:
"I am working on a book now that has a reference from the bibliography (say
Smith, Tom), who has been used a lot and discussed, that needs to be
indexed. Did I see in a posting last week or so that said that there is no
limit to strings in this case? I have provided subheads but if it is from
a reference is this the wrong thing to do? Have I totally got the wrong
end of the stick here?"
I don't now whether this has been discussed at length elsewhere but it
seems to merit it. With many literatures the name of a particular
writer/theorist may be of little significance. Indeed, when Tom Smith had
only one idea and everyone seems to know about it, yet like King Charles'
head he keeps wandering into the discussion in desultory fashion, he might
be well worth ignoring altogether. Elsewhere, however, the singer may be
better known than the name of the song and this is a problem I have right
now. The subject matter *is* what particular individuals have fulminated
upon and an expression may lose such little meaning it might have
originally carried when decoupled from the name of the person with whom it
is associated. The hard part is coming up with useful sub-heads when it is
the instant author's take on what some greater mind is said to have said
about something - but, if Tom Smith and ten big ideas, to me that sounds
like ten good sub-heads.
J
[Background:
Jhon is quoting:
From: Pam Scholefield <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] strings]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] New Year increase
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:54:10
I keep a dial-up Freeserve account going as my emergency back-up and, from
time to time, have look-see and delete the messages about replica watches
and Viagra. Freeserve marks them as SPAM - though I wonder whether "corned
beef" might be more apposite - and I double delete them without opening. I
haven't kept count but, during December, I should have said that the volume
165
of rubbish did increase. Conversely, with my ntl account I never get any
corned beef. This may be because I steadfastly refuse to bank online, file
my tax return online, buy anything online or checkout anybody's website
unless pressed beyond all endurance.
I am left wondering whether, at some time in the past, the list was
harvested.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] strings
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:16:01
"...sorry, first day back at work and that. Snowing lightly here in
Edinburgh..."
It's not snowing in Leicestershire. Are you sure that you are not trying to
string us along, you Angel, you?
[Background:
The weather report was from:
Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] strings
Date: 03/01/2008 10:10:54]
Subject: [SIdeline] There are an awful lot of Fernandos in Brazil
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:00:23
I'm getting in a mess here.
Following the usual reference books, I'd expect Fernando de Mello to work
out as:
Mello, Fernando de
because the prefix always goes at the end with Portuguese names.
For Fernando Collor de Mello, however, I find reference in the text to the
"Collor" government which would lead me to:
Collor de Mello,
Fernando
To add to my confusion, moreover, one of the contributors in the instant
job is Fernando Luis de Paula - a name truncated to L.F. de Paula in the
running header which is suggestive of:
Paula, Fernando Luis de
But ... I've also got Fernando Cardim de Carvalho rendered as F. Cardim de
Carvalho in the running header.
Can anyone sort me out please?
TIA,
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] There are an awful lot of Fernandos in Brazil
166
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:37:20
Thanks Derek.
As it happens I did and this is what she said:
"Tricky. I would go with Paula, L.F. de, Mello, F.C. de, and Carvalho, F.C.
de - for consistency. But if you get a definitive answer from SoI, go with
it."
J
Hi John and All
Personally, if I was faced with such a mass of inconsistencies, I would
refer back to the editor with the appropriate authoritative
references. Pointing out the odd error is no bad thing but, unless we are
also copyediting, then extensive correction such as this is beyond the
brief of an indexer.
Regards
Derek Copson
Subject: [SIdeline] Spybot - Search & Destroy 1.5.2
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:47:19
Hello,
Can anyone advise me please? I have been using Spybot quite happily for a
number of years. This week a new version has been released and it seems to
have made receiving PDF files impossible. Instead of an attachment which I
can read in Adobe, the attachment becomes a sequence of Enigma Code (see
below) in the email message itself. In other words, the sender provides an
attachment but this disappears and is transmogrified into unreadable
rubbish.
EG:"--------------090005060008030800030507 Content-Type: application/pdf;
name="multicultural Education vol1.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="multicultural Education vol1.pdf"
JVBERi0xLjINJeLjz9MNCjEyMzMgMCBvYmoNPDwgDS9MaW5lYXJpemVkIDEgDS9PIDEyMzUg
DS9IIFsgNjk0IDUwMzggXSANL0wgMTc2MjM1OCANL0UgMjk2NTkgDS9OIDM4MCANL1QgMTcz
NzU3OCANPj4gDWVuZG9iag0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg "
[and so on]
TIA,
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] spellchecking in Word
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:52:45
I recall once having this problem with an older version of Word than I use
now (though in my case it defaulted to US however often I tried to set it
to UK English). Each time, I blocked the text and then set the language
and, albeit a tedious business, it did at least work.
167
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OT [but not unrelated to fees?]
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:31:11
Quid non mortalia pectora cogis, Aura sacra fames!
Virgil
[To what do you not drive human hearts, cursed desire of gold]
"if you work with words, you are literally sitting on a goldmine. The
problem is you are selling it like a coalmine."
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Linda Sutherland <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] OT [but not unrelated to fees?]
Date: 25/02/2008 14:01:57
In the context of web searching, one guy at least thinks that
"if you work with words, you are literally sitting on a goldmine. The
problem is you are selling it like a coalmine."
Source:
http://newsweaver.ie/gerrymcgovern/e_article001025720.cfm]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] No index question
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:38:53
To lower the tone ... Stephen Fry, in an uncharacteristically vulgar
moment, once provided this new definition for an old word: "To assassinate
Piers Morgan." And, if you cannot work that out for yourselves, it
certainly does you credit.
J
If the only people who are likely to buy it are those who know the man
personally (who is he, by the way?) and can expect to be mentioned, I
wonder how the publisher is expecting to make a profit on it.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Indexing Arabic and Chinese names
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 15:27:42
Classical Arabic admits of the introduction of no word after the time of
the Prophet. When Robert Graves taught in Egypt in the 1920'S he was
delighted to find that his title was not "professor" but, "the very learned
Sheikh Graves".
J
"Sheikh/Sheykh/Shaikh/Shayk/Sheik (there are many ways to transliterate
Arabic into Latin letters) is a title of respect for a traditional leader."
[Background:
The original query seems to have been:
From: Barbara Newby <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: Indexing Arabic and Chinese names
168
Date: 05/03/2008 13:35:04
I've been out of touch with Sideline for quite some time (connection and
email problems), but I hope to be able to find out what's happening on 'the
scene' once again. I know some time ago now there was some correspondence
about this subject, but it had no relevance to me at the time. I'd
appreciate any help you can give me with indexing the following names:
Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed
Osama bin Laden
Qiao Liang
Wang Xiangsui
I have seen various versions for Arabic names where 'Muhammad' or
'Mohammed' appear at the beginning of the entry, but I know nothing of the
precedence for 'Shaikh' or 'Sheikh' or the order for Chinese names.]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] looking at money
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 15:54:15
Zeb wrote:
"My sole income is from indexing, and I manage fine, but when my gas
central heating boiler started to play up, it did give me pause for
thought."
So true. Unlike a thorough bred corgi, but very like PG Woodhouse's bulldog
refused cake, my gas engineer emits a kind of wooffle on encountering yet
another deficiency in my heating arrangements. A couple of long ones on repiping the system because, instead of good honest copper, I'd got some
alloy which arose from the Katanga crisis in what was then the Belgian
Congo; one and a half for a new boiler and some electrical arrangements of
which I never fully grasped the full import; another half for a new gas
fire and associated works which left me guessing even more. And, I am not
even going to tell you about emptying the cupboard and selling the shelves
for the acquisition of F1 generation real estate in central London.
That's the way the money goes ... not to mention rapacious Scotsmen who
want their 20% cut of the proceeds.
J
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Zeb Korycinska <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] looking at money
Date: 07/03/2008 15:29:17]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] copyright and moral rights
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:44:52
This clause assigns all copyright and neighbouring rights. Whether this is
a good idea or not is something with which we have exhausted the ether
already.
The clause also introduces the issue of copyright infringement in a
slightly curious fashion. Since copyright infringement is already unlawful,
it is rather odd to have to "agree" not to do it. It's a bit like saying
you promise not to hold up the bank at gun point when you go to pay in
their cheque. Bundling up the issue of "moral rights" in the same sentence
is equally curious.
169
If you wish to be just as difficult, you could say that the contractor
(you), whilst warranting that the work will be undertaken with proper
diligence and in all good faith, does not indemnify the company (them) for
any loss or damage resulting from the infringement of any third party
rights howsoever caused.
J Geraldine wrote:
I am about to start a six-month contract with a company and they have sent
me a draft contract. There is one paragraph which I am a little unhappy
with and any comments from your goodselves gratefully received.
This is
what it says:
You hereby assign any intellectual property rights in the materials created
by you during the project to *** with full title guarantee. In signing
this letter you agree to do everything and execute all documents which may
be necessary to confirm the title of *** to such intellectual property
rights. You also agree that the materials you produce during the course of
the project will be original to you and will not infringe any intellectual
property rights of a third party and that you will waive all moral rights
in such material.
[Background:
John quotes:
From: geraldine beare <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] copyright and moral rights
Date: 12/03/2008 11:17:14]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] copyright and moral rights
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:51:41
But it is also important to bear in mind the difference between a "contract
of service" and a "contract for service". The former conveys full employee
rights (albeit short-term) and the latter preserves one's freelance status.
J
James wrote:
Given that this is a "six-month contract" I would assume that this is
closer to an employment situation than freelance, i.e. you work for them
for 6 months on whatever they say, rather than you agree to specific
material in advance and set a delivery time. Given the "employment type"
work, then this kind of clause would be normal - certainly in a computer
programmer producing software situation (which is very similar with IPR
vested the product) this is standard.
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: James Lamb <[email protected]>
To: geraldine beare <[email protected]>, Sideline
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] copyright and moral rights
Date: 12/03/2008 11:40:08]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] copyright and moral rights
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:52:48
170
All the same, this sub-clause still seems otiose to me because, to be
frank, they've already got you all ways by the full title guarantee. You
cannot assign better title than you actually possess.
J
Not quite. What it actually says is "You also agree that the materials you
produce during the course of the project will be original to you and will
not infringe any intellectual property rights", which is that the material
*will not" infringe IPR.
[Background:
The paragraph after John’s initial is from:
From: James Lamb <[email protected]>
To: john jeffries <[email protected]>, 'Sideline'
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] copyright and moral rights
Date: 12/03/2008 13:39:01]
Subject: [SIdeline] Racism
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:21:37
As it happens, James does have me worried now.
I'm doing some stuff on multicultural studies by American writers, written
over a lengthy period, and its contributions are almost dateable by their
language as in the progression: "Negro" - "Black" - "Afro-American" "African American" (as well as some other expressions). I'm not all the way
in yet (I'm in Vol2 of a six volume set) and have not encountered "Nigger"
so far, which is now manifestly offensive - though commonplace in Mark
Twain's day and probably much later too (a great uncle of mine had it for a
nickname). Is "Negro" now offensive to 21st century ears?
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: Racism
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:13:11
In the book I'm doing, I have found "Negro", "Black" and "Afro-American" in
the same paragraph; "African American" (with or without a hyphen though
more commonly without); "of color" now and then; and the occasional
specific such as "Gullah". It is a work of many hands with original
articles written over many years. "African American" *appears* to be
current usage.
J
Kathy Lahav wrote:
> The current usage for "black" in the USA is > Afro-American (aka American
husband) - however, I've > not yet found any author using this term.
I thought it was African American (no hyphen). I have seen that, but Black
seems to be preferred in general usage.
Christine
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: Racism
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:57:18
171
Thank you. This is indeed the decision I had taken. I am still wrestling
with "Hispanic", "Mexican American" (which is pretty rich when you think
about it) and the stem "Chican" (where the ending is gendered in the plural
and the singular). And, trust me, it doesn't end there either. I haven't
even thought what I am going to do with Asian American.
J
John Jeffries wrote:
> In the book I'm doing, I have found "Negro", "Black" and "Afro-American"
> in the same paragraph; "African American" (with or without a hyphen >
though more commonly without); "of color" now and then; and the >
occasional specific such as "Gullah". It is a work of many hands with >
original articles written over many years. "African American" *appears* >
to be current usage.
The fact that the articles were 'written over many years' explains the
different terminology. I would suggest that you use 'African American' as
your main heading, with cross-references from the others. If there is a
discussion anywhere of the changes in usage, you could have entries such
as:
Negro, as term
see also African-American
Does this help?
Christine
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OUP
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:53:36
Verily I say unto you. I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Matthew 8:10
As Wikipedia puts it - 'Assume good faith.'
[Background:
The Wikipedia quote was from:
From: Jackie Speel <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] OUP
Date: 14/03/2008 14:41:12]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Bosanko's bungle
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:15:08
The words "bungle" and "pratface" have never been amongst those I associate
with Sue. If we all admitted to our CRAFT moments, the ether would collapse
about our very ears.
J
[Backgorund:
From: Susan Bosanko <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Bosanko's bungle
Date: 20/03/2008 10:08:23
Apologies to all, but yesterday's Information Exchange message should have
172
been a request for information on 4Word Ltd Page and Print Production of
Cater Road, Bristol, not 4Print as pratface here managed to type by
mistake.
No excuses available, simply a senior moment. Any information on the
correct company will still be appreciated!
A similar message will be going out on SI-Announce.
Sue Bosanko]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] colourblindness (wasTwo books, one index)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:00:07
Red/green colour blindness is sex-linked and not that unusual in men.
Women, however, may experience the much rarer blue/green colour blindness.
J
[Background:
An early contribution was:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Two books, one index
Date: 20/03/2008 10:19:18
Very late to this and it may have been said but the editors could use
two colours and eliminate the need for letters - is it as daft as it
sounds?!?!?!?!?]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] colourblindness (wasTwo books, one index)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:37:37
Even wholly monochrome vision is possible ... and, for those of you
watching in black-and-white, the yellow ball is behind the pink ball.
Apparently there was a colour-sighteness test of TV cameramen/persons and
only a few out of [a large number] had full colour vision - mostly there
were slight problems with some colours (is there a colour vision equivalent
of short sight?)
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] colourblindness (wasTwo books, one index)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:20:17
The story is told that the directors of the London, Brighton and South
Coast railway determined that locomotives should be painted Brunswick Green
and when the Chief Mechanical Engineer, William Stroudley, fancied yellow
ochre for a change, he called it, "Stroudley's Improved Engine Green".
Obviously this is a case of, "Improved Leaflet Blue".
How interesting - that must finally explain why a woman I used to work with
insisted that the pale green leaflets we had printed were blue, and said
"Yes, men always call that shade green, but it isn't". She was an artist
(Royal College of Art), so one couldn't argue with her about colour! When
choosing coloured paper for print jobs I've often wondered why she was so
adamant about it, when the print shop always calls it green.
173
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] colourblindness (wasTwo books, one index)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:55:56
" ... a cascade of replies." That's good. What about, "a cataclasm of
contributions"?
But are you a cat lover, though? Talk to my server because my inbox isn't
bovvered.
J
[Background:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] colourblindness (wasTwo books, one index)
Date: 21/03/2008 12:36:59
When I mentioned use of colour I didn't realise that I was going to set
up a cascade of replies. Nearly as bad as mentioning cats]
Subject: [SIdeline] I know my place ...
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:37:20
Hey guys: you'll like this - a little bit but not a lot.
Found myself confronted by a review of a book for which I lost the
commission because the publishers had run out of time. I was staggered
first to learn that anyone can sell a 172 page book for £114. But, the
review says, "this book would have benefited from an index ... [goes on to
beef about a couple of typos]... These are, of course, small matters ..."
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Top of the (Indexing) Pops
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:25:24
Apologies to the tone deaf but it has been argued that music makes you
intelligent.
I listen to Radio 3 most of the day until it gets to world music and two
hours of the castration chant of the Wotabanga tribe which no westerner has
heard in its entirety before committing suicide.
I particularly commend the breakfast programme (0700-1000) especially when
Rob Cowan is the presenter. And a best buy: for £4.25 you can have the May
issue of BBC Music with a CD of Allegri, Palestrina and Byrd given by The
Sixteen - and it is seriously good.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] history question
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:39:56
Nazi is the German shortened form of Nationalsozialist. In full, in
English, "National Socialist German Workers' Party" but few, I imagine,
would remember that.
J
174
Hello,
Can somebody tell me if the Nazis are the same as the National Socialist
Party in Germany? They seem to be interchangeable in my book but I want
know if I can use Nazis with a see from National Sociaists.
Thanks, Pam
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] saints?
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:09:02
An apposite question on St George's Day.
I dare say that the best thing to do is the minimum whilst avoiding
confusion. Once had an academic editor who didn't want saints at all (she
was an Orthodox Jew) but wasn't prepared to go so far as to alter what her
contributors had written. I'd still say that "St Paul", in what ever form
the name might be rendered, is more economical in expression than, "Paul
[you know the one: he had been called Saul and converted on the road to
Damascus]".
Is there a case, I wonder, for distinguishing between genuine historical
persons, with some biography based on substantiated fact, and those who are
rather mythological figures/demi-gods?
J
Dr John Jeffries 8 Beech Road, Oadby LEICS LE2 5QL Tel
Txt +44(0)7748413790 Email [email protected]
+44(0)1162719007
-----Original Message----From: Margaret Christie Sent: 23 April 2008 16:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] saints?
Dear Glyn (and others who have responded) - thank you - I responded a few
minutes ago but it hasn't come back to me - I hope it'll appear soon! So if
it does, sorry for repetition. I can't have been clear enough: what's
bothering me isn't where the names go - clearly they go under the personal
name, with Saint inverted at the end if used; my problem is whether,
particularly since the text seems to be using the word as little as
possible, whether I can do the same, e.g.
Paul (apostle)
Augustine of Hippo
etc.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] saints?
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:28:45
"... a classified list by form of martyrdom would be useful, especially
for quiz setters."
In this scheme, how should indexing a six volume set on multicultural
education be entered?
J
175
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] saints?
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:49:58
Is it because all life is a game of two halves?
I'm still intrigued by the 'neutral stance'. Is that as taken by the
legendary TV presenter who concluded a debate with the words 'well, there
we are. Some people say God exists; others that He doesn't. The truth is
probably somewhere in between'?
[Background:
The second paragraph quotes:
From: Bill Johncocks <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] saints?
Date: 23/04/2008 17:39:33]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] saints?
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:43:33
Zwei Seelen und ein Gedanke, Zwei Herzen und ein Schlag
John Jeffries and Bill Johncocks have come up with the same quote [even
unto capitalisation and punctuation] within minutes. Is this an example of
parallel intuition or merely standards compliance?
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] saints?
Date: 23/04/2008 18:29:00]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] see under and see also under
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:46:47
Laurence wrote:"... And thirdly, I have started to use just a little of email shorthand
(e.g. u). Does this cause offence (I know there are a lot of people out
there who take the language seriously)?!"
If God had meant us to use email shorthand he wouldn't have given us the
Queen's English which is the greatest cultural treasure in the world.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] very OT but not a million miles from recent
discussions
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:44:59
- .... .- -. -.-.-- --- ...--- --- .... -.
;-)
[For those whose Morse is rusty, this reads ‘THANK YOU JOHN’ – BJ]
176
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:39:01
Subject: [SIdeline] Accepting work
In common no doubt with some others of you, I have received two broadcast
emails from a company which did give rise to a certain amount of discussion
as to procedures a year or so back - which then went quiet. Is it that,
however unbusy one might be, earning nothing is sometimes preferable to
accepting certain types of work?
J
PS
Per Sue (thy conquest, love): gone are the days when I received any post
sealed with a loving kiss.
[Background:
From: Susan Bosanko <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] email shorthand
Date: 28/04/2008 12:20:12
James wrote:
"The sort of shorthand I associate with emails are things like IMO (in
my opinion), LOL (laugh out loud) and ROTFL (rolling on the floor
laughing), which seem justified because of the large saving in
writing and reading time, and because the frequent use of the phrases
seems to have endowed them with subtleties of meaning of their own"
Subtleties lost on those who, for example, use LOL to mean lots of
love...oh dear, we're going to be back to SWALK and so on soon. So more of
nothing new under the sun (sorry, Bill!).
Sue Bosanko]
From: "john jeffries" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] getting work
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:27:13
Bill wrote:
"I've now done 48 indexes and I still don't feel established enough ..."
I'd say that's a pretty good score.
In my case, I probably suffer from stark insensitivity though I notice that
a lot of new indexers on this list do make frequent disclaimers about their
inexperience and what they don't know, etc. I hope they do not adopt this
stance when they write to publishers. After all, if you give the impression
that you do not believe in yourself, how can you expect others to believe
in you? Might I suggest that the correct approach is that you are so damned
good it's amazing they have managed so long without you? No foolish virgins
here please.
J
[Background:
John is quoting from:
177
From: william jack <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] getting work
Date: 28/04/2008 14:09:31]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Titles of legal personages
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:01:40
It is not customary to index the names of judges when the text is about one
of their judgements unless there is an idiosyncratic requirement to do so.
Hence, the legal status of the judge concerned is probably irrelevant otherwise you might end up with:Bingham, J Bingham, LJ Bingham, Sir Thomas, MR Bingham, LCJ Bingham of
Cornhill, Lord
depending upon how up the tariff he was on the day. When citing the
decision of a judge in an earlier incarnation, transcripts tend to use the
form "as s/he then was" which is only important as signifying the
hierarchical position of the court rather than the status of the individual
at the time. There is a kind of fiction that judges simply declare what the
law is so it doesn't matter which individual says it - not true of course
but you can see where they are coming from.
A judge cited as an author of a legal text or a biographical subject should
be dealt with in the same way as any lesser mortals.
J
Dr John Jeffries 8 Beech Road, Oadby LEICS LE2 5QL Tel
Txt +44(0)7748413790 Email [email protected]
+44(0)1162719007
-----Original Message----From: [email protected] Sent: 01 May 2008 15:19
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Titles of legal personages
Hi, all
I have the following in the book
I'm currently indexing
Lord Denning M.R. Singleton L.J.
The
initials stand for Master of the Rolls and Lord Justice.
Should the initials of the titles be included after the name in the index
or ignored altogether?
Many thanks in advance
Wendy
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 06:07:06
Subject: [SIdeline] OUP Rates/procedures
[for the umpteenth time]
Dear Friends,
I'd hoped that some progress had been made here but nothing seems to have
changed at all.
178
Yesterday, for the first time in a long time I accepted a law job from this
source and have sent this reply to the desk editor:"The materials have safely arrived. Thank you.
You ask me to add new topics to the existing index. I think that perhaps
your planning assumption is that if the text has only been altered so much
then the extent of the changes to the index are comparable. Unfortunately,
the locators in the second edition index no longer match the text on the
basis of my spot checks. I have found none that do. Few of my colleagues,
moreover, would commend so many locators against single headings. To take
an example at random, I would suggest that 26 page references to "Angola"
tells the reader very little.
In any event, unless one is working from ridered manuscript to paragraph
number, amending a standing index is rarely, if ever, a satisfactory
procedure and no less time-consuming than starting from scratch.
The only way forward I can recommend is to produce a new index using
conventional indexing software.
I hope you will not take it amiss if I also point out that there has been
much discussion as to OUP rates in recent months and less than £1.00 per
page is substantially below accepted professional rates as recommended by
the Society of Indexers."
Any views?
J
From: "john jeffries" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OUP Rates/procedures
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 08:56:05
[for the umpteenth time]
Further to my last, the desk editor has informed me that the budget has
been calculated on the, "OUP standard of £1 per page".
Is this the common experience?
J
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:36:30
Subject: [SIdeline] Realistic fees - OUP
Dear Friends,
I asked for a realistic fee in line with Society rates - I didn't mention
an amount - and this was the answer I got:
"... £1 per page is the standard at OUP for indexing work and all our
freelance indexers work to this budget and therefore I cannot increase this
amount at this time. However, I have now re-assigned this work and thank
you for your comments."
Thanks for replies on and off list.
As ever,
John
179
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Realistic fees - OUP[Scanned]
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 13:49:42
Jan wrote:
In order to achieve SI minimum rate of £19.50 you would have to index at a
rate of + 19.5 pages per hour. If you include editing time, then you would
probably have to index (i.e. read, select and input) at about 25+ pages per
hour. Unless the indexing is ultra-simple, the rate probably works out to
be about £7-10/hour.
Not good!
I think that what bothers me more is that it does rather cut the ground
from beneath one's feet if a colleague will accept a fee will below
recommended rates. I've heard lots of earnest talk about fee negotiation
but all this is meaningless when the likes of OUP just consider that if you
don't like it you can stick it where the monkey stuck his nuts. Personally,
I do not consider myself a monkey which is why I do not accept payment in
nuts.
J
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Jan Ross <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Realistic fees - OUP[Scanned]
Date: 02/05/2008 13:31:04]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Realistic fees - OUP
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 17:02:13
Dear Friends,
Many thanks for the advice/support on/off list and by phone. It's been a
trying day. The good fellowship of my colleagues means a lot to me.
As ever,
John
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indian mahararishis
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 09:38:17
Chambers Biographical Dictionary tenders him as:Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (originally Mahesh Prasad Varma)/
Maharashi translates literally as, "great sage".
J
[Background:
John is responding to:
From: Michele Clarke <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Indian mahararishis
Date: 04/05/2008 08:50:47
How would one index the following
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
180
under the first M, which I presume only means some kind of teacher? or
Mahesh? …]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indian names
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 14:23:05
Thinking on. Is there such a thing as an exhaustive list of the honorific
titles used in South Asia? In so far as I understand it, which isn't much,
it appears to be considered bad manners to address people by their proper
names in public - hence the use of honorifics.
"Kim gave him no title - such as Lala or Mian. He could not divine the
man's creed".
It seems to be important.
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] name query (editing more than indexing)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:07:50
With military rank it would be customary to put the "retired" last. Where
the logic breaks down is that this means retirement from the active rank
not retirement from active employment. Also, an individual might be reactivated. There was an instance in WWII, for example, where a surgeon
rear-admiral RN retired was commissioned as a temporary acting probationary
sub-lieutenant RNVR. Also, many convoy commodores RNR were retired RN flag
officers.
J
-----Original Message----From: Hilary Faulkner Sent: 05 May 2008 09:47
To: Sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] name query (editing more than indexing)
Hi all a friend has asked 'When writing the name of an author, etc, does
'Retired' come after honours or before? And if you have a reference book
that tells you this, what is its title please?' My inclination would be
to put 'Retired' last as that seems to make chronological sense, but if
anyone is out there working and can offer a more authoritative opinion ...
cheers
Hilary
From: "john jeffries" <[email protected]>
To: "'Sideline'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] name query (editing more than indexing)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 12:15:22
Heads of state (same way as gins and tonic).
J
-----Original Message----From: James Lamb Sent: 05 May 2008 12:11
181
To: 'Sideline'
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] name query (editing more than indexing)
Is the plural for head-of-state, heads-of-states - it looks wrong to
but all the alternatives have different meanings?
me,
James
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Realistic fees - OUP
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 14:19:18
And Laurence is, of course, entirely right.
I have managed to keep the wolf from the door since 1994 and that is the
reason I do it: not for amusement's sake.
As it is, having turned down other work to accept the instant commission, I
am left without anything for the time being. By expedient and denial, from
having been right down on my beam-ends, I have built up a cash reserve.
And, goodness me, it's just as well.
J
Have not read all the replies, so someone else may have said this. It
seems obvious that they have a set of indexers `happy' to work for this
rate. All we can do is try our best to let them know that in the long run
they are harming both themselves and the profession as whole (unless
they are indexing as a `hobby' where the income does not matter - shame
them then for letting the rest of us down).
on
One question is, are these indexers accepting the lower rates, members of
the SI? If any are any of them are listening, then maybe there is
something they can enlighten us about. Perhaps you are supplying them with
1 or 2 refs a page in which case £1/page would be OK! Come on, be brave
and show yourselves.
As for the editors at OUP, I know my past contacts were well aware of
problem but said they had no power over changing the rates (which as
the
others have said are not just low, but have not even changed one bit).
[Background:
The paragraphs following John’s initial are from:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Realistic fees - OUP
Date: 05/05/2008 13:57:24]
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 16:19:50
Subject: [SIdeline] Virus hoaks
Virus hoaxes always have a tediously familiar wording but is there such
a thing as a genuine warning? It happens to be the case that, as of now,
the BBC News website (link below) is carrying a story about some piece of
wickedness I do not understand which is estimated to have affected half a
million users.
J
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7389529.stm
182
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Fees
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 12:12:21
Sue asks, "What makes the difference?"
My spiritual adviser tells me that she does not believe in a divine
providence. All I can say is that, having been sold down the Cherwell last
Friday, I am now in work until the end of July. There just seems to be a
destiny which shapes our ends, rough hew them as we may.
J
[Background:
Sue asked it in:
From: Susan Bosanko <[email protected]>
To: 'Gerard M-F Hill' <[email protected]>, 'Mark Wells'
<[email protected]>, [email protected], 'JG'
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Fees
Date: 09/05/2008 12:04:26]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] sideline: fees - again - yes again - and reality
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 12:37:01
Dr John Jeffries 8 Beech Road, Oadby LEICS LE2 5QL Tel
Txt +44(0)7748413790 Email [email protected]
+44(0)1162719007
-----Original Message----From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of JG
Sent: 09 May 2008 12:15
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] sideline: fees - again - yes again
----- Original Message ----From: "Susan Bosanko" <[email protected]>
To: "'Bill Johncocks'" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:58 AM Go, go,
go said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.
TS Eliot: Burnt Norton
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] re: IBAN etc
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:22:58
I'd still like to know what a Swift is. The IBAN has an obvious
composition. In the case of mine: GB44 LOYD followed by sort code and
account number. The entry above mine on the statement is a BIC (what ever a
BIC might be) which is LOYDGB and five numerals which I'd better not state
in case someone pillages my account or whatever.
-- Dr John Jeffries 8 Beech Road, Oadby LEICS LE2 5QL Tel
+44(0)1162719007 Txt +44(0)7748413790 Email [email protected]
183
[this signature omitted from this point – BJ]
-----Original Message----From: John Noble Sent: 12 May 2008 12:12
To: sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] re: IBAN etc
Wow! so quick! - my thanks to all - Hilary, Connie, Kathleen and 2 x
John.You saved me a phone call to the bank.
thanks again
John Noble
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] re: IBAN etc
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:58:45
"Is there anything there isn't a standard for?"
SIdeline contributions.
Not many people know this but the marque, "Standard" - in the sense of a
flag - was abandoned because Johnny Foreigner thought it meant that it was
a basic/utilitarian motor car. In much the same way, I imagine, when "most
secret" - which is good English - was replaced by "top secret" because our
transatlantic allies took it to mean "almost secret". Then again, picture
my mother-in-law's reaction when another of her sons-in-law (from
Wisconsin's dreary clime) described her cooking as, "quite nice".
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Book indexing and librarianship
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:33:51
When I was a librarian I did do write one or two books. I did not, however,
index them because I didn't think I could. I never did find out who indexed
one of them but he or she produced something which, even now, I find
flawless. If you are still out there, who ever you are, thank you. You are
my professional conscience.
The point about librarianship/information work used to be about knowing the
user and knowing the literature and bringing them together. Accordingly,
*using* indexes was central to the task. I remember really pissing off a
user once as I turned to this and then to that to answer her question
because she wanted to know what my system was. I hadn't got one: it was
what ever felt right. She never came back. She'd just ring up and ask me to
sort out the problem. The conclusion I reach from all this is that to index
is not to follow slavishly a set of preordained rules but to create a
product which does what it says on the tin. It helps the user establish
what is in the expletive deleted book. Today, I feel this particularly
strongly because I am salvaging the work of someone who followed all the
recognised technical conventions ... and still got it completely wrong.
PS Sold out of candyfloss today. Only wormwood left.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Book indexing and librarianship
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:42:36
"I do not have a library background, but the fallacies of this
184
statement
are clear."
James, you can't say things like that. It's like calling the Pope an
atheist ;-)
I think that what ACF was referring to at that point was an alphabetical
index to a classified catalogue. In other words, the provision of unit
access to a systematic array. I've lost my copy so I cannot check the
context of his remarks just at the minute.
[Background:
The ACF in this case is explained by:
From: James Lamb <[email protected]>
To: Glyn Sutcliffe <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Book indexing and librarianship
Date: 13/05/2008 10:23:36
At 10:01 13/05/2008, Glyn Sutcliffe wrote:
>As A.C. Foskett has pointed out:
>'The indexing of individual books is usually regarded as something quite
>separate from other kinds of indexing, but this is not the case. We
>can employ the same kinds of approach as we would with any other
>classified sequence, since a book itself presents information in a
>systematic way. . .
And GS’s quotation of ACF provoked James’s rejoinder quoted by John]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Fees again - getting screwed
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:58:36
"They've found someone else at £600."
Well said Laurence. Good on you. After all, it's one thing to be sold down
the Cherwell - another to punt down it.
[Background:
Quoting:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Fees again - getting screwed
Date: 13/05/2008 15:52:16
I was offered a book by Hodder (educational part - not medicine…’]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] fees - again and again - I've started so I'll
finish
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:47:25
A leaflet has just arrived on my door mat:
" * Fed up with working for someone else? * Would you like to be your own
boss? * Do you want to be home based? * Would you like to take control of
your own future? * Would you like an [sic] lucrative and interesting
career?"
But wait, there's more:
"... rates £60-90 per hour ... the opportunities are endless."
Have you guessed?
185
PLUMBING!
There is also power flushing at £400 per day - but let's not go there.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Society organization
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 14:46:42
"People must be sick of me going on, so I will try my best to leave it
others unless I get replies that specifically refer to what I've said."
Au contraire, Laurence: you say much that many of us wish we had said
ourselves. There isn't actually anything wrong with wanting a decent rate
for a decent day's work though, I have read such curious rationalisations
for why we ourselves think we should be paid less, I wonder publishers do
not ask us to pay them for the privilege of indexing their books.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Sideline - is this a record! <now trivia>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:22:06
To triumphantly unite two disparate threads: the story is told that there
was once a most spinsterish, steely-eyed and steely-haired chief cataloguer
who would go to some trouble to sequence catalogue cards in draws labelled
ARS - BUM, and such like, in the sure and certain knowledge that no one
would say anything about it. It was her way of keeping even with the world.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] sideline - [OT] antivirus
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 09:06:22
Because I had bought 7.5, I was given the opportunity to download 8.0 but
it won't let me install it. I am after wondering whether the person who
built me this machine palmed me off with a dodgy copy of Windows.
[On a wholly unrelated OT matter,
bumble bees without hurting them?
(blind as well as daft) and, if I
day. I think she is a Queen field
does anyone know of a way of deterring
There's one which thinks I am a flower
evict her once, I bet I do ten times a
bumble bee looking for a home].
[Background:
I think the antivirus thread began with:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] sideline - [OT] antivirus
Date: 15/05/2008 19:04:47
I'm asking answers from experienced/knowledgeable AV users. I've been
using AVG free edition up till now. It had a good reputation. They've
bought out v8.0 combining AV and spyware now (which sounds good), but
the reviews are so so, and I'm wondering if it's time to change…]
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 11:23:09
Subject: [SIdeline] Adobe Reader
Is there a way of eliminating running header from an Adobe Reader search?
It's an irritation anyway but I have just noticed a curiosity. Where
"white" appeared as the last word of a running header and the first word of
the text on the page was "regulate", a search result was "whiteregulate".
186
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Know your tables
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 12:36:26
When lawyers speak of "authorities", what they are usually taken to mean is
case law - the authority of precedent. If what is meant is actually primary
materials, it is customary to divide them by form (eg statutes, secondary
legislation, EU materials, HMRC documents or what ever) as the work
demands. Some people even like to sub-arrange references in chronological
order though for what purpose I have never understood.
-I'm presently working on an academic legal text that needs an index and a
'table of authorities'.
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Library <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Know your tables
Date: 19/05/2008 12:24:19
Hello Sideliners,
I'm presently working on an academic legal text that needs an index and a
'table of authorities'…
Geoff Bailey]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing Job
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 11:06:36
"The schedule is quite tight - 30th May but PDF files are ready. The book
is about 290 pages and budget is £340."
Which looks like six working days to do it in and £1.17 per page. Do you
know, I really think we ought to have a discussion about rates. I'm
surprised no one has ever mentioned it before.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing Job
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 11:21:21
Yes, but it can be reduced to a few simple propositions:(1) Make the owners a profit;
(2) Make the owners a profit;
(3) Make the owners a profit;
(4) Blame everyone else when things go wrong; and
(5) Expect to be sacked if you do none of the above (especially the first
three).
-----Original Message----From: Glyn Sutcliffe Sent: 21 May 2008 11:15
187
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing Job
Do publishers have a Code of Conduct and a disciplinary procedure?
-- Glyn Sutcliffe [email protected]
> -----Original Message----From: john jeffries > Sent: 21 May 2008 11:07
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing Job
>
>
> "The schedule is quite tight - 30th May but PDF files are ready. The
> book is about 290 pages and budget is £340."
>
> Which looks like six working days to do it in and £1.17 per page. Do you
> know, I really think we ought to have a discussion about rates. I'm
> surprised no one has ever mentioned it before.
>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing Job
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 11:56:05
No, but I call on Janet to lead us in a chorus of "The Internationale" for
it is all the satisfaction we will get today.
Do publishers appreciate the SI Code of Conduct and the standard it
potentially safeguards for them? Does professional integrity impact on the
commercial world in reality?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing Job
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 12:37:14
Maureen wrote:
"Interesting to note that nobody commented onlist on Jan Worral's recent
message about specialisms, and the fact that wittingly or unwillingly there
are members of SI taking on jobs which put them in breach of the Code. As
yet, it really isn't much of a guarantee of anything."
Without wishing to appear more than characteristically sententious, what it
seems to guarantee is the absence of professional integrity if there are
those who choose to ignore what they signed up for. Lawyers have an odd
doctrine, "pacta sunt servanda" which, roughly translated, means that if
you purport to agree to it, it is to be assumed that you also intend to
carry out what you have undertaken to do. It is indeed unfortunate that it
is not necessarily the way of the world.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Bothersome admiral
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 17:59:26
This is really interesting because the action off the Gulf of St Lawrence
(6 June 1755) precipitated the Seven Year War. As Hardwicke LCJ put it,
Edward Boscowen's action was at once "too little or too much". Too little
to seriously inconvenience the French and too much to be glossed over as
188
less than act of war.
The "Battles of the British Navy" by Joseph Allen [n.d] renders the name as
"M. De la Motte" but points out that Boscowen had fallen in with four
French ships of the line which had separated from the French flag in a
gale.
Enthusiasts might be interested to note that Boscowen's nickname was "Old
Dreadnought". De la Motte seems to be no more than a footnote in nautical
history. May be the Musee Maritime in Paris has a website.
Wish I got interesting books.
-I have a text referring to "Admiral Bois de la Motte" dodging battle
Admiral Boscawen, off Newfoundland, in 1755.
with
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Linda Sutherland <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Bothersome admiral
Date: 24/05/2008 17:36:26]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] To range or not to range?
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 10:39:40
"2b) using page ranges, even though that isn't in accordance with
practice"
normal
This has come up before and I think it is a no-brainer. Having told readers
that the relevant stuff lies between pages 27 and 31 they are not likely to
be bewildered by illustrations (even if they notice the anomaly). Anything
else just makes life a little bit harder for all concerned. There are those
who would go 27/31 rather than 27-31 but I don't see who or how it helps.
[Background:
2b is from:
From: Linda Sutherland <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] To range or not to range?
Date: 29/05/2008 10:24:45]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] 2b or not 2b (was to range...)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 12:26:22
My senescent brain may be playing its little tricks on me but, as I recall,
when we talked about this before it was pictures of either tomatoes or
smiling babies which disturbed the flow of the text. All the world knows I
hate babies ... and tomatoes I can take or leave.
-All that wealth of pictorial and graphical information going unindexed is
what would concern me. Why do people think it is of lesser importance?
[Background:
John quotes (All that wealth…} from:
From: Glyn Sutcliffe <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] 2b or not 2b (was to range...)
Date: 29/05/2008 11:33:35]
189
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] 2b or not 2b (was to range...)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:51:56
Aisles full of husbands!
Wives in the avocados,
Babies in the tomatoes!
- and you, Garcia Lorca what were you doing down by the watermelons?
Allen Ginsburg
On the whole, however, I prefer the description by His Royal Highness of
Edinburgh that children exist in, "plague proportions".
"Michael Faraday? Mind you, we could do with fewer of them at present. I'm
with John on this, as well as over tomatoes."
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Bill Johncocks <[email protected]>
To: Jackie Speel <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] 2b or not 2b (was to range...)
Date: 29/05/2008 15:30:01
Michael Faraday? Mind you, we could do with fewer of them at present. I'm
with John on this, as well as over tomatoes.
Bill
----- Original Message ----From: "Jackie Speel" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 3:19 PM
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] 2b or not 2b (was to range...)
Who was it who said (in response to 'What use are...?@) 'What use are
babies?'
Jackie Speel]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] FW: Broadband speeds
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:43:49
This is in the news today. There is a story about it in the Technology
pages of the BBC site. But it is the same story: as in all life, you are
better served if you live in the Great Metrolopuss rather than amongst the
hayseeds.
[Background:
The thread was begun by:
From: Glyn Sutcliffe <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] FW: Broadband speeds
Date: 03/06/2008 08:38:09]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] philosophy question
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:01:31
I'd say that the short answer to this *IS* that life is too short. I am
reminded of the words of my landlord in my first year student digs but, as
this is a family discussion list, I cannot tell you what they were ... but
he did have a way with words.
190
-A philosophy question (as I keeping coming across
though I try to avoid them!)
chapters of it, even
[Background:
From: James Lamb <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] philosophy question
Date: 04/06/2008 14:40:39
A philosophy question (as I keeping coming across chapters of it, even
though I try to avoid them!)
The embedded text (and therefore probably un-copyedited text) says:
"The basis for these principles can be found in reason alone, or in some
outlook which is itself free from religion, purely 'laïque'. Jacobins are
on this wave-length, as was the first Rawls.”
Were there two Rawls? I only know of one, John Rawls 1921-2002.
Is this a simple typo - perhaps "as was, from the first, Rawls", or was
there another?
James]
From: john jeffries <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Five minute warning
Date: 6 June 2008 13:59:46
You lucky people: watch out for 900 pages of contract law the Cherwell
College of Advanced Impudence wants by 24 June.
To: "'Jackie Speel'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Five minute warning
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:43:45
"How does one index impudence - and 'dumb insolence'?"
dumb insolence ^see^ jumped-up seccies
impudence ^see^ dreamy spires
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Five minute warning
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:32:43
"Are there other categories of insolence?"
I don't know, but it does seem that the insolence of wealth will creep
out.
[Background:
The question is from:
From: Jackie Speel <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Five minute warning
Date: 06/06/2008 13:56:28]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] PDF viewers and page numbers
191
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:20:55
"I am wondering if there are any PDF viewers that allow one to set the
number of the first page of a document."
I find this a real pain. What is good is a file which starts with the first
page of the doings, misses out the prelims and goes on to the end.
Sometimes I get that. Other times I get it a chapter at a time but there
seems to be a way of presenting it so that the real pagination is visible.
Hence, although it is pages 51 to 100, being chapter two, and although the
Adobe 8.0 search box has it as 1 to 50, a box in the centre of the bar at
the top of the text screen clocks the "real" page number. I conclude that
it depends wholly on how the editor puts the material together and if you
just have a reader what you see is what you get.
[Background:
A reply to:
From: John Sampson <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] PDF viewers and page numbers
Date: 10/06/2008 10:56:27]
Subject: [SIdeline] Pigs in Boots [more or less OT but then again possibly
not]
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:03:31
Anyone desperately in need of a laugh should check this link. It slew me:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/7448006.st
m >
And, speaking as one, I've got a classic text by a woman author which
persistently refers to "man", "him" and "he". I am now so well socialised
that I find it every bit as irritating as the modern fad for the feminine
pronoun.
John
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: [SI-Announce] Fw: Wheatley shortlist
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:27:49
When will I gain the recognition I so richly deserve !!!!????
"Genius, all over the world, stands hand in hand, and one circle of
recognition runs the whole circle round."
Herman Melville.
[Background:
The question comes from:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: [SI-Announce] Fw: Wheatley shortlist
Date: 13/06/2008 10:01:09]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] mass noun or count noun?
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:46:48
Should I possess a pack of paracetamol, whether there be one capsule or
sixteen, it is still paracetamol. It's the capsule which is singular or
192
plural, not the paracetamol. Hence, it is the molecule which is countable
not the chlorophyll.
-----Original Message----From: Cath Topliff Sent: 13 June 2008 10:32
To: sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] mass noun or count noun?
The noun in question being chlorophyll. No problem, you might think, its
that green stuff that leaves nasty stains on your clothes when you sit on
the grass, a mass noun surely. But the text in question is heavy duty (very
heavy duty) molecular biology and the authors are discussing the properties
of individual chlorophyll molecules within the photosynthetic apparatus.
They lovingly describe 3D position and function of each one: as far as they
are concerned they are definitely countable, discrete entities. So do I add
that 's'?
Cath Topliff Accredited Indexer [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Wheatley shortlist
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:17:00
"What I'd like to know is why everyone else gets the interesting books and
I get stuck with 1000 pages on The Study of Second Language Acquisition..."
You think you've got problems. I've got "On Death and Dying" which is so
far failing to concentrate my mind in the way it ought.
And who is this Tracey Cox?
I've lost count of the number of indexes I've done and not a spicy book
amongst them. Still, it's probably bad for your eyes when you get to my
age.
[Background:
The quoted question was posed in:
From: Jane Read <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: Wheatley shortlist
Date: 13/06/2008 10:04:52
While Tracey Cox was mentioned in:
From: Christine Shuttleworth <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Re: [SI-Announce] Fw: Wheatley shortlist
Date: 13/06/2008 10:31:58
Laurence Errington wrote:
> ...Ho hum, another year passes in which my brilliant contributions have
> been overlooked. How did they miss Ophthalmological Lenses and
Dispensing?
> What about DNA Microarrays? Surely someone noticed the hand crafted
> entries in Superhotsex by Tracey Cox.
Well, well - I indexed Tracey Cox's The Sex Doctor in 2006. So the fickle
wench has transferred her affections to Laurence!]
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:31:44
193
Subject: [SIdeline] Intellectul Property
I long ago came to the conclusion that IP lawyers were all away with the
fairies but I feel impelled to share this with you:
"Their young and generally desperate destinies roll out in an obscure
stream of incessant turmoil and havoc, give way to endless disputes and
judicial battlefields, trigger white nights and ulcerate intestines, until
they finally exit from their tormented lives imploding as regulatory
supernovas."
The heading is "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" which - the fans of Belgian
surrealism amongst you - may recognise as the title of a picture by René
Magritte.
Still, it probably beats scranleting two hundred furrows from Ticklepenny's
Corner down to Nettle Flitch.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Intellectul Property
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:38:08
(1) "What is scranleting?"
I've never been entirely sure but Rueben Starkadder did it with a hook.
(2) "I'd be interested to hear what you used as indexing terms for this (if
any - my first thought would be to hold off until I came to a less
incandescent sentence or paragraph, or at least one that didn't sound as
if it had been written on an LSD trip)."
The last paragraph reads:
"Maybe we are all falling down the rabbit hole, and somebody continues to
say that it's late."
[Backgruond:
Question 1 comes from:
From: Jackie Speel <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Intellectul Property
Date: 16/06/2008 14:27:09
And 2 from:
From: Kathleen Lyle <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Intellectul Property
Date: 16/06/2008 13:52:18]
To: "'Janet Shuter'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Intellectul Property
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:12:49
Janet wrote:
"I should have thought anyone, never mind any indexer, would know that
scranleting is an old Sussex word for the very delicate process by which
sukebind volunteers are excised from maincrop furrows. As John says, it
was in more recent times done with a hook, although traditional scranlets
were made of borogove horn mounted on gimbelled kedges with cat-and-fish
type backstays to prevent drabbling."
194
I have now been able to locate my dog-eared copy of (1896) XVIII Archiva
Gelidus Consolari and I find that, under the medieval three field system, a
more difficult method was employed where a rennet post was attached to dumb
beasts which a drew pruning-snoot. The sukebind was then separated from the
evil smelling pussy's dinner using a ford-piece and collected in a snood
bearing the traditional inscription, "Straw or chaff, leaf or fruit, we
mun'all come to't." Little is known as to the origins of this expression
although, to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Victoria's accession, it
was adopted as a motto by the Lewes Women's Institute.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] timing of receiving messages in digest
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:29:25
"I get my messages as a daily digest.
to Sideline, I get replies concerning
message and I haven't had a chance to
I get the digest perhaps not till the
Sometimes, after sending a message
others peoples comments about my
see any of the replies yet (because
next day)."
Laurence raises an interesting point. I keep three machines which,
inevitably, are labelled "faith", "hope" and "charity". "Charity" is the
machine I index with and is aptly named given the amount one is paid. It is
in complete isolation from the rest of the world. I have LAN software but
prefer to move things about the old-fashioned way. "Faith" gives me my
outside contact which means that I can check mail (or not) and not disturb
the quiet stir of thought. What does surprise me is the number of times
punters thank me for reverting so quickly. So, what sounds at first blush
an unwarranted extravagance is actually good for business. Also, I can
check a .pdf more easily and run scans when ever the fit takes me. "Hope"
is a back-up and does printing, has a dial up last resort connection, and
so on, and helps me sleep easier at night. Am I being sensible or merely
paranoid?
To: "'Barbara Hird'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Presidents
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:16:06
"'Sideline'"
"This is not always convenient where space is short, especially in the case
of the USA, where 'US President' is a useful formula."
Where there are a lot of the blighters, I have taken to going, "[n]th
president" which helps with telling apart George and George Doubleyuh - but
I got started with an author who confused the two Roosevelts - which was
unfortunate because she actually meant Woodrow Wilson. Also good for
dealing with some of the less memorable nineteenth century presidents.
[Background:
John quotes the last paragraph only from:
From: Barbara Hird <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Presidents
Date: 19/06/2008 10:37:35
Further to Zia ul-Haq, if it is appropriate in context to add it,
'President' is a political position rather than a title, so it goes after
the name and and needs its country – so
Zia ul-Haq, Muhammad, President of Pakistan…]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] timing of receiving messages in digest
195
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:22:36
"I suppose that means I have faith and charity, but only the ghost of
hope? :-)"
a
Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh it is the
tree of life.
Proverbs 13:12
Go on. Admit it. You would have been disappointed ...
[Background:
John quotes the last paragraph only from:
From: Linda Sutherland <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] timing of receiving messages in digest
Date: 19/06/2008 11:05:12
Whichever, I'm of the same mind. I also have three computers, one
used for serious work and not allowed near the Internet, one for web
access and other dodgy business (like testing cover disk software),
and a third which, if I ever get round to fitting a new hard disk,
will be used as a backup machine…]
Subject: [SIdeline] Fees again
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:38:57
"Can we get something more substantive to get the message across about
offering significantly below the minimum (in this case £1.35 pp)."
I haven't the least idea what editing a book involves so it is hardly to be
wondered at that few editors have much idea about indexing. Indeed, one
seldom knows oneself the work involved in a particular commission until
after it is finished. I happen to be doing one for a truly miserable page
rate at the moment but it is still a steal because there is so little to
do. Same way, I recently billed three hundred squids for a four page index
and earned every penny - and then some. Many colleagues have gone to a lot
of trouble trying to explain what we do but, in the last analysis, punters
just want an index done and how difficult/easy, quick/time-consuming is not
their problem. They only know how much they are allowed to spend and when
they want the work done by.
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Jackie Speel <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Fees again
Date: 19/06/2008 13:53:54]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] sideline: `find' problem in PDFs
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:32:27
Always ready to be shot down in flames, but thinking laterally, I wonder if
this is a consequence of what ever part of the programming provides the
right justification of text. In the old days, the justification was created
by slipping in a few more bits of metal because there is almost no chance
that the right number of letters and the right number of spaces will
exactly occupy a line every time on a given page with given sorts.
It has long been my experience that any solution to a particular problem
can cause another problem no one had anticipated. Or, in short, there is a
196
virtual space (so far as the program is concerned) which doesn't exist in
type-set space (so far as the visual image is concerned). In any event,
whatever the idleness of my speculation, worth reporting to the
manufacturer?
[Background:
From: Kathleen Lyle <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] sideline: `find' problemproblem in PDFs
Date: 25/06/2008 11:19:17
… Laurence Errington writes
>floppy
>but the pasted word appeared as
>fl oppy
>(there was no line break causing this).
You will find the same thing if you search for words containing "fi".
The reason is that the font used by the typesetter has special sorts
(ligatures) for these combinations of letters.
You can find such words by pasting them into the search box, but not by
typing them in.]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] referring to the author
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:50:50
'xxxxx, yyyyyy, 3rd Viscount xxxxx, (myself)
but there is no reference on the page for the reader to find, other
"myself".'
than
I should find the temptation to put, "himself" almost irresistible.
[Background:
Responding to:
From: James Lamb
Subject: [SIdeline] referring to the author
Date: 25/06/2008 14:42:23
I am indexing a book on the history of a company and have come across
references to the author as "myself". Scanning ahead, there are a number of
these, without even searching for "I". Any suggestions as to how to handle
this in the index? I can hardly have:
xxxxx, yyyyyy, 3rd Viscount xxxxx, (myself)
but there is no reference on the page for the reader to find, other
than "myself".
James]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] referring to the author
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:46:05
If it chances to be Jabir Ill al-Ahmad al-Jabir, Emir of Kuwait, it is sure
to seem like a long book and just as bad if it is Saad al-Abdallah al-Salem
as-Sabah. Still, they probably think John Jeffries is a funny name.
PS
Just in case no one has noticed: nothing I say is ever to be taken
seriously.
197
I have just come across "A notable customer was the Ruler of Kuwait....
Those present recall the Ruler's memorable remark... The Ruler simply
said..." - arghhh. This is going to be a long book.
[Background:
The last paragraph is again quoting James:
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] referring to the author
Date: 25/06/2008 15:36:31]
Subject: FW: [SIdeline] Re: people with handles (was Re Referring to the
author)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:43:32
"I often wish the biographical dictionaries indicated by which of their
many forenames the nobility were known, especially when they have half-adozen each and are bidding to take over the index."
What is more confusing still is the modern preference for taking the name
in the title as the surname. This was visited upon me when I found a notice
in Ragley Hall signed "Bea Hertford": not "Beatriz Seymour-Watson", nor yet
"Marchioness of Hertford". Then again, the present Prince William is not
the first Prince William to avoid his royal title (the other one joined the
navy as "William Guelph").
[Background:
John quotes the last paragraph, which follows:
From: Barbara Hird <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: people with handles (was Re Referring to the
author)
Date: 26/06/2008 15:21:24
Margaret Christie wrote:
>But should an index also be, in effect, a glossary?
I agree with the implication that it shouldn't be a glossary, but give
the right amount and type of information to identify the subject of an
entry in the context of the book - so John Clerk didn't need his
baronetcy in a book on music, and in James's book only the author needs
labelling.]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Rockweeds and wracks
Date: Wed, 2 July 2008 19:45:01
'Fucus vesiculosus' = Bladder wrack 'Ascophyllum nodosum' = Knotted wrack
'Pelvetia canaliculata' = Channelled wrack 'Fucus serratus' = Serrated
wrack 'Fucus spiralis' = Flat wrack 'Halidrys siliquosa' = Pod-weed
known collectively as 'sea-wracks'.
[Background:
From: Linda Sutherland <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Rockweeds and wracks
Date: 02/07/2008 14:16:54
Are 'rockweeds' and 'wracks' full synonyms? Both are used in the text
I'm working on, but without clarification, and the NSOED isn't any
help.]
Date: Thu, 3 July 2008 08:01:39
198
Subject: [SIdeline] Income Tax
Surrealism rules: fry your watch.
In the old days one used to receive a statement of account from the Inland
Revenue, now and then, which at least made it possible to follow what was
going on. This didn't happen for the January 2008 payment and it would now
seem I must have made a considerable overpayment in guesstimating.
I had been expecting to have to pay a second payment on account equal to
the first at the end of this month. A couple of weeks ago they sent me a
demand for a different amount and yesterday an assessment for one which was
different again.
So, we telephoned the Gas Board - sorry - HM Revenue & Customs. I got the
all our lines are busy message three times and then was on hold for ten
minutes as I listened to an attenuated version of Pachelbel's Canon in D.
Eventually, I was able to ask a nice young man which amount was the one to
pay. Naturally enough: none of them. It was a fourth and entirely different
amount. The difference between the highest and the lowest is about £1,350 which is a lot to me.
It is very frustrating not the least because it seems impossible to verify
anything for oneself. Am I the only one as baffled?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Income Tax
Date: Thu, 3 July 2008 09:52:27
" ... with their clients (or whatever the word is)?"
Solicitors and prostitutes have clients. HMRC has "customers". Pretty exact
really. You buy government from them and if you don't like what you get
there is no point asking for your money back.
But, in response to John's question, I think that the answer is that nobody
loves me and everybody hates me - which is why I am going down the garden
to eat worms.
[Background:
From: John Sampson <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Income Tax
Date: 03/07/2008 09:36:34
Hello I have had no such problems up to now. Are different local tax offices
adopting different policies about communicating with their clients (or
whatever the word is)?
The origin of the children’s song about eating worms is obscure]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexers Available
Date: Thu, 3 July 2008 15:12:24
"Silence does not mean assent
'Though I stand to be corrected, that's precisely what in law
it does mean'."
199
The legal maxim is actually: "Qui tacet consentire videtur" best translated
as, "who ever is silent is held to consent". The verb, "consentire" also
connotes "to think". "Assentari" is rather "to flatter".
But Marcus Tullius Cicero wrote that laws are silent in times of war. I'll
leave you all to make of that what you wish (if anything).
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Bill Johncocks <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Indexers Available
Date: 03/07/2008 14:32:55]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexers Available
Date: Thu, 3 July 2008 16:04:38
Necessarily. For a contract to exist there must be evidence of agreement
and intention to carry out that agreement as well as consideration.
I hadn't realised quite how much valuable consideration was involved before
one was permitted even to attempt the jump through some hoops but, with
legs like mine, my doctor has advised against it.
-----Original Message----From: [email protected] Sent: 03 July 2008 15:42
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Indexers Available
In a message dated 03/07/2008 15:36:56 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
In law silence may mean consent,
It's a long time since I went to law school, but, in contract law, at least
(Felthouse v Bindley), I thought silence didn't mean acceptance?
Regards
Kim
Kim Harris
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Voluntary indexing project
Date: Fri, 4 July 2008 11:50:05
I think that what really bothers me about this is that it's a bit like
saying that, no qualified practitioner will treat you for nothing so we'll
see if we can find a medical student to try and cure you for free - just to
get their eye in. If this were genuinely "pro bono" type work - and there
is nothing wrong with that even for indexers - then anyone with the
interest/spare capacity/altruism might take it on. As it is, it sounds as
though the time of the unemployed is regarded as being correspondingly
worthless. This would not be a pleasant thought. As I recall, Mark Twain's
words of Huckleberry Finn were to the effect that he had a superabundance
of the kind of time which was not money such that all projects were alike
to him.
-----Original Message----From: Ann Kingdom Sent: 04 July 2008 11:22
200
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Voluntary indexing project
I'm looking for a newly qualified indexer (or possibly an 'advanced'
trainee who is nearing the end of the Accreditation course) who would
to do a 'real' indexing job on a voluntary basis, to build up their
experience.
like
It's for a book of about 18,000 words on the subject of continuing
professional development (CPD), focusing in particular on the routes and
requirements for becoming professionally qualified. (something not
unfamiliar to Sideline subscribers at present!) The book is being
published by the Professional Associations Research Network (PARN), of
which SI has been a member for some years.
Proofs are ready now and the time schedule is quite generous - about
month, I believe, so there will be no need to burn the midnight oil.
Please contact me off-list (or by phone) if you are interested or
like more information.
a
would
Ann Kingdom
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Voluntary indexing project
Date: Fri, 4 July 2008 15:15:15
I don't own a horse: I merely expressed a concern.
-Further to Ann's response, undertaking voluntary projects is something that
anyone may choose to do if they think the cause is worthwhile. I am doing a
voluntary indexing project myself at the moment (very slowly, because paid
work takes precendence and I don't have much spare time) - and before
anyone gets on their high horse, I am not taking the bread out of anyone's
mouth; if I hadn't offered to do it free of charge, it wouldn't have been
done at all.
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Jane Read <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Voluntary indexing project
Date: 04/07/2008 12:26:22]
Date: Tue, 8 July 2008 10:56:36
Subject: [SIdeline] Browser Flaws
I should be interested to read any expert comment from colleagues on the
following story:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7494988.stm
[Background:
Amazingly, the link to the BBC news site was still acrive on 28 June 2013
but in any case, there was a response:
From: James Lamb <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Browser Flaws
Date: 08/07/2008 13:43:26
201
It is true that most browser upgrades are due to known, identified
and publicized security flaws.
It is also true that Internet Explorer is the most insecure browser
and probably accounts for most of the 600 million users who have not
updated their browsers.
Firefox is the most popular browser after IE, and is well respected
in terms of security. Updates are automatic, so usually people will
be running on the latest, most secure version…]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] printer/scanner/copier
Date: Wed, 9 July 2008 09:39:09
Sorry to go off on another of my tangents but is there much use for fax
these days? It used to be a blokie sort of thing for offices to send each
other 200 page faxes at the close of play which could more easily have been
put in the first class snail mail for less cost and inconvenience all round
- but that's going back twenty years. For some while, I kept a dedicated
fax line and all I found was that the ink dried out and that, from time to
time, the local school would send it an automated message that some kid had
bunked off again. I hasten to add that my fax machine accepted no parental
responsibility for the child concerned.
-I'm thinking of buying a printer/scanner/copier/fax. Any recommendations,
please?
Thanks
Oula Jones
Subject: [SIdeline] Plus ca change, plus ca la meme chose
Date: Thu, 10 July 2008 17:18:20
"I was wondering whether you would be interested in some indexing work,
beginning early September? The title is a multi-contributor academic
monograph ('New Technologies and Human Rights'), with an extent of 304
pages. The job would last about 3 weeks from September 1st, with the
finished product back to me by September 22nd. The fee for the job would be
around £380."
Sounds like my kind of job!
On a wholly unrelated matter, I also wonder whether, if the Lord Jehovah
were to visit another plague upon Pharaoh, it would be sales calls from
British Gas.
All the best,
Pat Pending
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Titles
Date: Mon, 14 July 2008 16:53:09
Dunno about anyone else but I find that italic script is plain, good and
obvious for the titles of literary/artistic works even though the text may
do different (and rarely consistently). As I recall, the tendency to
underline was a result, in the past, of having no italic function as with
202
sit up and beg typewriters.
-I'm a bit flummoxed - I am indexing a book that has the names of
periodicals, magazines, works of art and films in it. Would you generally
underline them ALL in the index or would some go in italics, some
underlined, some bold, depending on the media?
[Background:
John quotes Teresa Sinclair as:
From: The English Cottage Garden Nursery <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Titles
Date: 14/07/2008 16:41:53]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Non-dopey question
Date: Thu, 17 July 2008 11:06:48
It is a noun so presumably it has the regular plural. As well as being
dope, it turns out that a "hash" is a stupid person in Scotland.
-What is the plural of hash when food (rather than dope or symbols) is
involved? Is it hashes (although that seems to refer to symbols) or just
hash (which sounds like a lot of dope)?
[Background:
John quotes from:
From: Susan Bosanko <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Non-dopey question
Date: 17/07/2008 10:41:04]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: Society membership
Date: Thu, 17 July 2008 17:08:14
Interesting. I have only once ever been summoned to an interview for
freelance indexing. There was no interest whatsoever in my academic
qualifications, such as they may be, but SoI membership was clearly a sine
qua non. That's not the most important reason for being a member of course.
I wonder whether Kathy had in mind a main "stream" publisher. No, I must
stop going off the rails about that. Anyone for puns ... chums?
-Last week a mainline publisher (no, not the one often mentioned on
Sideline) when taking down my details, asked me if I was a member of the
Society of Indexers!
This is a first. Previous publishers have shown more interest in my
academic qualifications....
Kathy Lahav
Date: Thu, 17 July 2008 17:49:00
Subject: [SIdeline] Hyphens in Arabic
203
I have a lot of Arab broadcasters here some of which start "Al" and others
"Al-" and by no means consistently in the text. I have the further
misfortunate of other terms/names which start "Al" and my alphabetical
order is beginning to look a bit silly. Does the hyphen have any value in
transliterated Arabic?
TIA
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Non-dopey question
Date: Fri, 18 July 2008 15:13:30
Manifestly obviously it is because Laurence is not. It is, however, a
definition given in Chambers Dictionary. Lowland Scots?
-I've never heard that or been called that.
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Non-dopey question
Date: 18/07/2008 14:36:18]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Bills and Acts
Date: Mon, 21 July 2008 17:36:47
I think Maureen's point is very important. It can often be that the matter
of significance is the aggravation which occurs during the passage of
legislation. What eventually hits the statute book may end up being utterly
anodyne. In a skanky place I used to work, the popular expression was that
something was process not product.
-The Act is the Bill after it has passed into law, and it's not often that
you need to refer to them separately. (Indeed the Bill tends to get
mentioned as such only when it fails to pass into law.)
[Background:
John is quoting:
From: Maureen MacGlashan <[email protected]>
To: Jackie Speel <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Bills and Acts
Date: 21/07/2008 17:21:57]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Arab? name
Date: Thu, 24 July 2008 12:09:19
Is Qamar a transliteration variant of Kumar? Also, is there a grammatical
rule about a Q followed by an apostrophe? Like the dash I asked about
earlier, there seems to be no consistency of practice ... unless I am
missing something.
-----Original Message-----
204
From: Maureen MacGlashan Sent: 24 July 2008 11:56
To: Jennifer Harding; Sideline
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Arab? name
Under "Q", surely. Qamar uz Zaman is a unit (often linked with hyphens).
Maureen MacGlashan
[Background:
The original question was:
> I don't know the nationality. Should it be indexed under u or under z?
>
> Mohammad Qamar uz Zaman]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Good practice - two separate questions
Date: Sat, 26 July 2008 10:26:43
Not for the first time, I find myself in complete agreement with Bill. It
seems to be pukka sahib American academic to have a separate name index by
which is probably meant an author index. In all the miserable years I have
sat in front of piles of proofs, I have only ever been instructed to do one
once and I am still asking myself what was the point. At best there are
merely authority files for the correct rendition of a name and, at worst,
the last refuge of the passing mention. In a subject index, there might be
some point in subheading George Doubleyuh's views on baseball, pretzels and
the Middle East, should the substance of the text warrant it, but not much
more.
-----Original Message----From: Bill Johncocks Sent: 26 July 2008 10:06
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: Good practice - two separate questions
Avril Ehrlich wrote:
>>>1) In a Names only index, am I correct in assuming that, like legal
tables, subheadings are not required at all and therefore strings are fine?
Since inserting subentries to break up strings is a politeness to the user
(as well as a discriminator between a professional index and a concordance)
I can't really see why the type of index should have any bearing on the
decision: surely the reader's time is no less precious when they're
searching for names? Unless, and Auriol seems to be hinting at this, the
name index is something unlikely ever to be consulted anyway!
Bill
To: "'Barbara Hird'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Good practice - two separate questions (pr
possibly only one)
Date: Sun, 27 July 2008 11:26:56
Barbara wrote:
"... And wondered what was the point of it all."
I greatly fear that we may have found something to agree upon: and, within
a group which seems unable to agree even that it wants more money, this
205
could be significant. All the same, I used to work for a law firm and grew
accustomed to compromising with sense although, in any event, if you are
paid the same for doing less and applauded for doing so, why knock it?
[Background:
John quotes the last sentence that follows:
From: Barbara Hird <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: Good practice - two separate questions
Date: 27/07/2008 10:47:57
The first time I did a names index to a volume on linguistics, I spilt
up the entries into subs by the short titles to which they referred
(substantial discussions were indexed by topic in the subject index). I
received a bitter complaint from the editor about the time she had had
to spend removing the sub-entries so as to restore a single string for
each author entry. Since then I have checked first with the editor then, almost always, produced the strings, taken the money and run…]
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: Tax issues
Date: Tue, 29 July 2008 13:19:25
I think that Avril should ask her accountant to set out what it would cost,
in her case, to follow this route and what she could expect to save and
over what time-scale. For me, the biggest penalty would be the risk of
compliance failure which even extends to the form in which your stationery
stock appears, your cheques and your accounting procedures: never mind
filing requirements. It isn't a simple fix and HMRC are re-hot when it
comes to anti-avoidance devices. There is no guarantee that what saves you
tax this year will the next or at any time in the future. It is rather more
important to think in terms of the extent to which limited liability is a
benefit and any other gains resulting from that type of business structure
(for example, if one chose to employ staff).
-----Original Message----From: Avril Ehrlich Sent: 29 July 2008 12:54
To: SIdeline
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: Tax issues
Hi, folks
My accountant has mentioned that I should make myself a limited company to
cut down my tax bill but I am worried about admin/charges involved.
Can anyone who has done this recommend it?
Many thanks.
Avril
Date: Wed, 30 July 2008 15:36:50
Dear All, I forward this urgent request. Anyone interested should contact
Kevin directly. They are very nice people.
-----Original Message----From: Kevin Eaton [mailto:[email protected]]
To: john jeffries
Subject: Indexer required URGENTLY
206
Sent: 30 July 2008 15:25
--
Dear John,
Nice to talk with you, and you know you have the best wishes of everyone
here - get well soon (I think that's an order).
In terms of the title that I require indexing.
Title: Political Economy of Oil and Gas in Nigeria Extent: 372 pages
(Royal) Budget: £510
The author of this title foolishly gave the indexing commission to a copy
editor who thought he could index (I don't know who was the more naive).
Now that he has realised his error, one day before press date, I am left to
try and salvage the situation for him. If you can take this title on, I
will despatch proofs and PDF immediately and promise payment on completion.
You can be assured that Refinecatch has a very good reputation for prompt
payment.
Contact details are below.
Yours sincerely,
Kevin -- Kevin Eaton Director RefineCatch Ltd Broad Street Bungay Suffolk
NR35 1EF
E-mail: [email protected]
Tel: 01986 895888 Fax: 01986 895695 www.refinecatch.com Company Reg. No.
3210995
Date: Wed, 30 July 2008 16:53:23
Subject: [SIdeline] FW: Indexer required URGENTLY
Dear All,
Kevin wishes me to thank you for your responses and that the job has been
taken ... or, as they say in the Black Country, "Yow cor ploy cos the
tame's bin puck."
Date: Thu, 31 July 2008 12:52:03
Subject: [SIdeline] Telecommunications
[OT]
I have been thinking: I so sometimes when the weather turns hot. Since
Monday, I have probably received at least 120 emails, of which 50 were
spam, and sent 37. In this time, I have made one telephone call on my BT
landline and traded a few texts of a frivolous nature via mobile. There
were nine incoming calls on my landline of which I was glad to receive
four.
This was prompted by a plague of nuisance calls last week and I have
decided to leave my answering machine on permanently on the basis that the
only people I wish to communicate with will send an email, a text or leave
a message. In particular, I don't have to speak to the person in Walsall
who calls every day but does not leave a message: I do not know anyone in
Walsall.
MOG of Oadby
207
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re Fees and anomalies - the result
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:42:32
In quietness and in confidence shall be your strength.
Isaiah 30(15)
-All of which goes to prove the words of Proverbs 15 v1
A soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger
[Background;
The quote from Proverbs came via:
From: John Noble <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Re Fees and anomalies - the result
Date: 01/08/2008 15:13:05
This is the reply I had from my editor:
Hi John
Thank you for your emails. I'm sorry for all the negativity.
Don't worry, I will pass the last invoice as is now.
Thanks again for your hard work.]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Biblical references
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:05:14
Strikes me that, all the time that the wicked are confounded, it would be
rather useful to have an authoritative contribution on how to do this
properly, abbreviate correctly and order appropriately and perhaps how to
phrase a note which explains to the reader what has been done.
[Background:
A response to:
From: Margaret Christie <[email protected]>
To: Kathleen Lyle <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Biblical references
Date: 06/08/2008 10:41:42
I'm sorry, I raised a red herring (in indexing terms) regarding the
abbreviations. Hart's does indeed cover this for references in the text thank you Kathleen for pointing this out - but has nothing to say about
order in indexes (at least, not at the pages K gives, and I'm not going to
spend time now looking through). However, as I indicated in my second
posting, normal index style is to have the full name of the biblical "book"
followed by a list of passages cited within it, rather than repeating the
"book" name.]
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:58:23
Subject: [SIdeline] Here's a New Game
I've got some stuff
"Marxism" is one of
associate with such
Why do I think I am
"Marxism"?
where each chapter has been provided with "keywords".
them. Whilst the writer adopts language I would
an orientation the word is not employed nor Marx cited.
going to catch it in the neck for failing to index
208
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 17:06:07 Message-ID:
<000401c90795$a7bad290$6401a8c0@communication>
Subject: [SIdeline] The Wrong Trousers [more or less OT as the case may be]
I cannot begin to tell you how much I enjoyed sending this ...
"Dear [xxxxx],
In common with many others, I am afraid to say that I decline work from OUP
because the rates offered are wholly inadequate by industry standards.
Yours,
John"
But, on an even lighter note:
In 2007, in the District of Columbia, an administrative judge sued his dry
cleaners in the sum of $54 million - for losing his trousers.
http.//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/25/AR200706
2500443.html
He lost [the case - as well as his trousers].
--
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing instructions
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:42:01
Does one upset indexers by making their references cross? Perhaps the time
has come when an anthology of studied insults should appear in the pages of
the journal.
->From publisher to author:
'The index constructed by an indexer should be viewed as a rough draft.
The draft should be sent to the author, who should then thoroughly review
the file for spelling errors, incomplete entries, incorrect
alphabetization, duplications, and inconsistent treatment of page ranges.
Entries that are not pertinent or significant enough to be included, given
the theme of the book, should be deleted.'
I also have a word list prepared by the copy editor, who suggests
'Eiensteinian' as a heading. Can only assume this is some amalgam of the
film director and that guy with all the hair.
Ha ha/Boo hoo
Happy Saturday
Hilary
[Background:
John quotes in full:
From: Hilary Faulkner <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Indexing instructions
Date: 30/08/2008 11:26:54]
209
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing instructions
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:55:41
PS
Now I think on. I recall that this is not without my experience and I can
amend the instructions, as follows, in that light:
'The index constructed by an indexer should be viewed as a rough draft.
The draft should be sent to the author, who should then incorporate
spelling errors, incomplete entries, incorrect alphabetization,
duplications, and inconsistent treatment of page ranges. Entries that are
not pertinent or significant enough to be included, given the theme of the
book, should be added in profusion.'
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] An Irish name
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:10:15
If you were well and truly Irish you might call yourself Jennifer Ní
Harding and I might call myself Sean O'Jeffries. It's the only example I
can think of where the prefix is gendered. Any others?
-----Original Message----From: Jennifer Harding Sent: 02 September 2008 11:01
To: Sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] An Irish name
Hi. In refering to myself after using 'Jennifer Harding' I would be
'Harding'. What do I do with 'Eiléan Ní Chuilleanáin'. Is she then 'Ní
Chuilleanáin'? Also 'Terence de Vere White', is he then 'de Vere White'?
For the latter, do I capitalise the 'de' when it is just 'de Vere White'?
Thank you.
Jennifer Harding
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:26:15
Subject: [SIdeline] Only boasting [OT]
Merely to show how easy it is to bamboozle the punters and because it is
the only compliment I have received since the year of the Dempsey fight.
"Well I'm impressed! 'Easy' is the last thing I'd imagine it being [...] I
just can't believe that you do all that reading (and digesting and
understanding, going by what you say) in just a matter of days. Falling
into it or not, that's a serious talent you've got there."
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Long time taken to pay invoice
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 08:08:42
Most of the people we deal with are decent enough and pay on commercial
terms. In any barrel, however, there will be some bad apples.
In this case, it may be simply a misfortune of timing. For example, a
company may have a policy of settling only those invoices received by say
the first of the month in any given month. So, if you miss the cut, you may
wait longer.
210
It is much worse in other industries. My brother-in-law never, but never,
gets paid inside 60 days and oft times then only if he presses
sufficiently. Contrast this with one of my lot who rang to ask whether I
had actually received a cheque I was yet to pay in!
[Background:
A thread begun by Teresa Sinclair:
From: English Cottage Garden Nursery <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Long time taken to pay invoice
Date: 12/09/2008 18:51:05]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Long payment time
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 12:20:15
I've lost one for cutting up rough. This was SOAS. They were the people who
wanted me to show up (in person) with my passport, work permit,
naturalisation papers and letters of commendation from all three popes,
"before I started work" - even though I had already done the work - and had
a policy of refusing to settle invoices from anyone not incorporated in the
state of Delaware and not even then because they were probably dodgy
foreigners.
It should be noted, however, (and pace those who haven't any work for the
moment) our services are in relative demand at present which may not
necessarily continue. I was telling you about my brother-in-law. He has to
pay for parts as he uses them but the punters settle as and when they
please. He is being hounded by suppliers and the punters are telling him
they can only settle up when and if they get some money in themselves.
Never mind the legislation, if he demands better terms, he will be told to
stick it where the mountaineer stuck his ice pick. It's about who has the
whip hand. As in all life.
To: "'James Lamb'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Long payment time
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:02:16
I should like to be able to share James' robust confidence. First of all
one would have to obtain a CCJ - and they are frequently ignored - and then
go for High Court enforcement. I have never heard of an indexer enforcing a
writ of fieri facias (even though I'll admit the temptation is great).
Before that happens, the defaulter is most likely to have gone into
administration and one would be little better placed than an unsecured
creditor. Tell it all to XL customers who settled up in the morning for the
business to go ***s-up in the evening. It's only the insolvency
practitioners and secured creditors who are never in any pain at all.
The point here is that *we* are the suppliers and the publishers are the
punters. The Late Payment Legislation puts us firmly in control. If they
don't pay or ignore us altogether, then they can end up with baliffs at
the directors homes taking furniture away. (At least in England, but I
think it is UK legislation, but I haven't checked)
[Background:
John’s second paragraph quotes from:
From: James Lamb <[email protected]>
To: john jeffries <[email protected]>,
[email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Long payment time
Date: 13/09/2008 12:37:45]
211
To: "'Laurence Errington'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Long time taken to pay invoice
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:05:08
"Can't afford to get ratty as I have several editors at both these places."
And Laurence is entirely right. It's a commercial decision. My present
exposure is above three grand and all to good customers (six amounts just
to one of them) and all with work in the order book. It's just the way the
**** flies. I should, of course, take a different view were I not to have
been doing business with them these ten years gone by.
[Background:
Quoting from:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Long time taken to pay invoice
Date: 15/09/2008 09:09:12]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Long payment time
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:02:25
" ... whether we, as a group, consider it acceptable to pass on information
across SoI/sfep?"
There is one principal advantage in hanging together: one doesn't hang
separately. I'd go much further in information-sharing: there must come a
point when it is a significant moral duty.
[Background:
Quoting from:
From: Margaret Christie <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], James Lamb <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Long payment time
Date: 17/09/2008 08:49:18]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re:
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:01:08
If one were to be truly pedantic, and I am noted for it, I'd say that one
is commissioned to compile an index "for" a book and when it is done it is
an index "to" the book. Cf Trooping the Colour. All the same, of the things
I lose sleep over, this will not be one of them.
-> Does one write an index for a book, or to a book?
Either. James is correct in drawing a semantic distinction between the two
constructions, but nine out of ten people wouldn't notice it; most people
have 'lost' the distinction between count and mass nouns, judging by the
confusion between 'less' and 'fewer', so the chance of them spotting
nuances in preposition use is fairly small.
Being slightly pedantic, I would normally create or compile an index for
(to) a book anyway... writing to me implies joined-up sentences.
212
Jane
[Background:
Quoting in full:
From: Jane Read <[email protected]>
Date: 26/09/2008 08:48:21]
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 14:12:41
Subject: [SIdeline] What am I?
Just had another brush with the NHS, my chief contribution to the hilarity
being to break the hot tap in the hospital khasi and flood the place. But
that's not important right now.
Health care professionals will keep asking me what it I do, for what I am
pleased to call a living, and when I say, "index books" I am invariably
confronted with the same expression of blank incomprehension/incredulity.
The temptation to say that I am a retired saggar-maker's bottom knocker is
becoming very great indeed.
Does anyone have a concise sentence which could be deployed on such
occasions and which merely elicits that kind of dull respect to which I
feel entitled?
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:44:55
Subject: [SIdeline] Telephone Scam? [OT]
Some of you will no doubt have answered the phone to hear a ship's siren,
cheers and the captain telling you that you have won a cruise on the SS
Saucy Sally to the Seychelles or what ever.
I think there is a new telephone scam. I have just answered the phone and
an American voice said:
"That was an invalid response. Please press 1 to speak to a live operator."
Obviously, I didn't. The 1471 message was, "we do not have the caller's
number."
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Scams [OT}
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:58:02
In case anyone does not know, and I did not make myself clear, if you do
what they say, you are connected to a massively premium rate line which
rips you off. Being a cynical person, I do wonder that, if the telecoms
providers were made criminally liable for connecting scam calls, how long
it would take them to stop it.
By the by, if anyone would like the latest credit crunch jokes (like, Q:
What is the capital of Iceland. A: About £3.50) I have them. But, my
particular favourite:
An elderly lady receives an e-mail from the son of a deceased (but wealthy)
African general, asking whether he could transfer millions of pounds into
her bank account in return for a 20% cut. All the son needs is the sort
code and account number. Not realising she is the victim of a Nigerian 419
fraud, she e-mails back the details. A couple of minutes later she receives
213
an e-mail back from the general's son: 'Icesave?!' What is this, some sort
of scam?"
Which only goes to show that what goes round, comes round.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Scams
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:34:46
"... After some discussion it turned out that the calls were genuine. My
bank was trying to contact me because a credit card they sent me had been
returned to them ..."
Most of you will be too young to know this, but there used to be things
called "letters" which were written on stuff called, "paper" and placed in
an "envelope" to which a "postage stamp" was sometimes affixed. Postage
stamps were sold by, "Post Offices" but these have now been abolished too.
Letters were delivered to your door by "postmen". It wasn't a bad idea. I
don't know why they don't bring it back. The chief disadvantages to this
system, of course, were that you lost the options to have your time wasted
and concentration destroyed being cross-sold household/motor/ratinfestation insurance and hearing about improvements to your central
heating cover. We must all change with the times.
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: Christine Shuttleworth <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Scams
Date: 13/10/2008 16:37:40]
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:41:49
Subject: [SIdeline] Zen - for cat and Gandalf lovers everywhere [OT]
I have received a get well card with a message some of you may appreciate:
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats for they are subtle and will piss on
your computer."
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Sideline [OT] definitely off topic
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:24:59
It is quite clear that urban foxes have become much more bold in recent
years but I have never heard of them attacking before. Indeed, in my street
one was observed sitting and watching two cats fight. They seem to be
inclined to keep at least 50 metres distance from any potential threat and
then keep the threat under observation.
The worst thing I know about foxes is that they have a smell all of their
own. You do not want to be down wind of them.
-----Original Message----From: Laurence Errington Sent: 28 October 2008 10:51
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Sideline [OT] definitely off topic
In my garden office this morning, crisp and bright. Needed to go for a pee
and as is often the case on a nice day, rather than going into the house,
I add my nitrates to the garden - very ecological supposedly.
214
Out of the corner of my eye, there was a movement. I thought it was the
neighbour's cat. No, it was a big red fox that has started visiting us
recently. It was not scared of me at all. My wife has seen it, and it's
almost ventured into the house, but she's a bit worried. The other day, it
took a nip at my boy's foot (wearing shoes). Very brazen. I tried to shoo
him off but he just stayed there unfazed. He then sat down and scratched
his ear like any dog. Nearest I've got to being on-safari.
Is this usual - their lack of fear for humans? Can the get aggressive?
it OK to accept their presence without any problems?
Is
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:25:47
Subject: [SIdeline] WinterWatch (completely OT)
Whilst gazing abstractedly into the back garden, instead of applying what
remains of my mind to the question of "strategic innovation", I spied a
grey wagtail (though first thought was yellow wagtail) at the bird bath an unusual sighting in a suburban garden. Anyone else clocking them?
And, for fox lovers everywhere, I saw one on the garage roof, though what
there might be on the garage roof of interest to a fox is more than I can
say.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] WinterWatch (completely OT)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:48:04
Not necessarily. Redwing was probably a passage migrant as they flock in
the UK in the winter months.
I find myself becoming increasingly sceptical of human species supremacist
views on ecology. It could equally be that some species are adapting and
competing more successfully with each other - and that the brambling, as
with the goldfinch, is an example of this. Some good news is that evidence
of the presence of otters has been found on the Farne Islands.
-But about four weeks ago there was a redwing in the apple tree, and fairly
often for the past three weeks there has been a female brambling, unusual
in north-west gardens - a sign of a hard winter?
[Background:
John is quoting from:
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] WinterWatch (completely OT)
Date: 21/11/2008 04:30:59]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: authors as indexers
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:56:55
Oft times I have felt that an author index tell us much more about the
author than the book yet nonetheless interesting for that.
An example from which, I am supremely confident, we can all take away
something appears in the index to "My Early Life": Churchill, Winston
Spencer
215
Feels the desire for learning
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Electronic signatures (becoming OT)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:50:35
To quote the man with a bad back, I'd say this was a custom more honoured
in the breach than in the observance. When I sign for a parcel on one of
those hand held devices I do believe I could write "Mickey Mouse" for all
the driver cares. It's a technology which has been available for a very
long time and I'd be hard-pressed to know what good it does. Sometimes the
bank doesn't think that I have made a very good attempt at my own signature
and won't accept it.
But the really spooky thing is this. I have recently obtained the army
record of my great uncle who was gassed in 1916 and his signature is
identical to my own.
-----Original Message----From: John Sampson Sent: 09 December 2008 15:39
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Electronic signatures
Hello Does anyone send electronically-signed documents in the course of their
business?
If so, how is it done?
It seems that some clients require and accept scanned written signatures
but I would have thought these were insecure.
Regards
_John Sampson_
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Jury service (OT)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:30:28
There is a simple solution to this. You write back and say that, due to a
long standing condition, you are unable to remain seated for any length of
time and that you greatly fear that this would impede the process of the
court.
It's one of my sister's lateral solutions and, like all my sister's lateral
solutions, it is tried and tested and it works.
[Background:
Margaret McCormack <[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] Jury service (OT)
Date: 16/12/2008 15:22:40
To my dismay, I've just received a citation to appear as a juror in
January.
Is anyone aware of a way of escaping this 'duty', claiming perhaps
freelance/ sole trader commitments or anything else you can suggest?
216
Indexing work is my main source of income and I don't want to lose out by
letting publishers down. I realise that money is paid for loss of earnings
but if I have the misfortune to be picked and it's a long trial, I feel it
could jeopardise future work. I expect there's not a lot I can do about it
but thought it was worth asking...
Thanks!
Margaret McCormack]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Professional Indemnity Insurance [was: jury
service]
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:58:37
James is entirely right. All I would add is that I cannot remember the last
time I was asked to enter into a formal contract with a punter. Indeed, I
think that the only time I was ever asked to have document executed as a
deed I never actually got any work from them! What this tells me is that we
are in a business which depends upon mutual trust and confidence and I
think that is the way I like it.
[Background:
James’s advice was posted in:
From: James Lamb <[email protected]>
To: John Sampson <[email protected]>,
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Professional Indemnity Insurance [was: jury
service]
Date: 17/12/2008 10:46:29
The view expressed previously has been that it is difficult to see
what an indexer (working on single books) could be liable for which
would necessitate Professional Indemnity insurance …]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] how sad is this? [OT]
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:07:43
Call me a sad and pathetic individual but my neighbours, who happen to be
Hindu, put a card through the door bearing all their names (including
"Junior" the pooch) and I was really very touched.
In response to the original point, it is not the time to worry when you
arrange your cards in categories, it is when you try to place them in a
single logical array. That is the time to worry.
-One thing I hate is when people hand you a card personally. What IS the
point of that. I like to know if I'm being sent a card, that I'm at least
worth a stamp!
Humbug
Am I on my own here? Support or condemnation?
[Background:
The humbug message was:
From: Laurence Errington <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] how sad is this? [OT]
Date: 17/12/2008 10:20:58]
217
2009
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] A query about names
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 10:50:52
I think that this is one of the more interesting points to have emerged in
a good while and I await the release of the dogs of war with interest.
The point was visited upon me recently when Short Fat Hamlet did a show on
Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina. No one would ever say that his name was
anything other than Palestrina. On the other hand, I recall being on the
receiving end of a seminar that it was definitely Leonardo because Vinci
was just the name of the place in which he was born. But, excuse me,
Giovanni Pierluigi came from Palestrina.
I think that I still say blow the sanctity of the turf, just run with what
is helpful.
Hi.
Here is the sort of heretical question which could only come from a trainee
(Unit B).
Just for practice I am indexing a book on female punk rockers from the
1990s. The readers of such a book would almost never refer to someone as
Mr. this or Miss that, instead they would use the first name alone for
someone known to them, or the first name and last name together. So while
they might, in accord with convention, be willing to look for Hanna,
Kathleen, they would never ever think of her as Miss or Ms Hanna, and so
this is contrary to their normal usage. In such a circumstance, and with
the permission of the publishers, would I be justified in having my entries
with the first name first instead of the last? Kathleen Hanna, instead of
Hanna, Kathleen? Or would I be drummed out of the international fellowship
of indexers for even supposing such a thing?!
Yours curiously,
Sue Tudor
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:09:39
Subject: [SIdeline] Out of Office AutoReply [OT]
This is genuine!
It's Christmas time in the workhouse, and yes, there's nobody here, It's
probably cos I'm out just now, enjoying some festive cheer. Like everyone
else I'm on my hols, enjoying a Christmas break, when I'll eat too much
(and drink too much) and never get round to the cake... But if all goes
well and Santa comes (and I don't choke on the pith).... I'll be back to
look at your message, somewhere around the 5th.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Suggestions for New Editions of Huge titles (+6000
pages)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:50:19
218
With a loose-leaf legal work having a regular updating cycle, it can only
work to paragraph number because one deals with copy edited amendments
ridered on to manuscript. Page numbers are unknown at the time the indexing
amendment takes place. The process allows one to deal with additions and
deletions within paragraphs or indeed the movement of material between and
renumbering of paragraphs (in effect both addition and deletion). It is not
easy and not one desk editor in a hundred understands what is involved. I
gave up doing it because life is too short.
-----Original Message----From: Jan Ross Sent: 13 January 2009 11:20
To: sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] Suggestions for New Editions of Huge titles (+6000
pages)
Hi
I am mulling over possible new ways to update huge encyclopedias e.g.
encyclopedias with up to/over 1000 separate articles, some of which will be
much the same, and some of which will be very different. To make matters
slightly more awkward they are all indexed to paragraph number.
Does anyone have any novel ways of updating indexes for new/changed
material? Has anyone else updated huge titles before, other than starting
from scratch again, or checking page (paragraph) by page (paragraph)
whether data is still there and in the same place? There must be some new
methods out there. How are legal manuals updated?
I'd be interested to hear any novel ideas, or even just other standard
methods. Thanks.
Jan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jan Ross
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Updating indexes
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:36:37
I would urge some caution here because there are potentially a number of
things to be taken into account:
(1) additions/deletions *within* paragraphs;
(2) additions/deletions of paragraphs;
(3) renumbering/splitting/combination/movement (whether whole or in part)
of paragraphs.
The opportunities for getting into an unholy mess are legion and it is as
well to take a long hard think about what needs to be done before starting.
Bear in mind also that what you get is likely to be in inferior photocopy
of copy-edited MSS which looks like spiders have walked several times
through a pool of ink and then had an argument. Sometimes the only way of
219
dealing with it is actually to work backwards through the text a paragraph
at a time.
If you haven't been paying attention, you might think that it is better to
have a nice clean copy of first proofs as amended. This is fine if you have
an exceptional ability for finding needles in haystacks, imagining needles
which have disappeared and tracing needles which were in one part of the
haystack but are now in another.
I spent several years doing this more or less full time and, trust me, it
is no fun at all.
-----Original Message----From: June Morrison Sent: 14 January 2009 12:11
To: sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] Updating indexes
Maureen McGlashan wrote: "I began by adding 5,000 to each paragraph number,
and then embarked on my trail through the book." This sounds like a
brilliant way to update one's own index, by adding 5000 to each page number
in Merge. After the new entries are in (by altering, copying or adding
them, put the file into PNO and annotate all the 5000+ numbered entries so
that they disappear. I cannot see any snags in a document which had merely
been updated with additions/deletions, rather than rewriting? Thankyou
Maureen!
With kind regards ---------------------------- June Morrison
To: "'sideline'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Updating indexes
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:04:54
As it happens, grouping in Macrex was the only way I was ever able to do
this sort of work. It's even a positive help when one had been compelled to
use ranges of para numbers which, though frequently undesirable, is often
inevitable. Curiously, the cumbersome eccentric para notations enamoured of
some, who do not realise what problems they are creating for everyone else
(especially the punters), often made the process easier. Of course, if you
will go E.134ff instead of E.134-172 or E.134-E.172 (as the case may be)
you have only yourself to thank for the extra work you have created.
Updating loose-leaf or paragraph numbered large publications, is not
terribly complicated, but does indeed require some caution. You can use the
regular indexing software packages for this, but the drawback is that you
cannot use the location reference as your point of entry in the way that
specialised software can. There is a Dutch language specialised software
package which can do exactly this. You search for a particular paragraph
number and get all the entries related to this number on your screen.
Location references that have been changed in the updating process are
marked, so you don't have to fiddle around with adding temporary numbers or
codes. Once you have finished the index you reset everything, the changed
locators are no longer marked and you are ready for the next round of
updating. The software is called WinGarb and you can read an article on its
history and a user review in The Indexer of October 2006.
The website for WinGarb is: www.garb.nl It is all in Dutch, but if you do a
lot of this work and are interested in the software, you can contact Henk
Revier. His contact details are on the website.
220
Best wishes,
Caroline -- Caroline Diepeveen Freelance indexer Middelburg (Netherlands)
email: [email protected] website: www.cdiep-indexing.com
--
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Updating indexes
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:44:48
Another way, which is actually an invention of Betty Moys, is to precede
deletions with xx[space] and additions with zz[space] if that is the way
you need to work (sometimes one is required to rider amendments onto
paper). It also gets around the issue of a requirement that some locators
are emboldened and others not (why this helps I have never understood - but
sometimes one is instructed to do it).
Linda wrote: "The method I've used up till now is to embolden the page
numbers of (a copy of!) the previous index before starting to work my way
through a comparison of the two texts. Acceped or changed locators are
disemboldened as I go, and at the end, any still emboldened are
rechecked."
I have tried that, but dispensing with the emboldened (and unwanted
entries) had to be on a one-by-one basis. If all the unwanted entries at
the end of indexing have large page numbers, they all accumulate at the end
of a PNO file and can then be dispensed with "at a stroke".
June Morrison
Subject: RE: [SIdeline]: Mature years (OT) was jury duty
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:41:02
I remember reading the valedictory speech of that incomparable intellect,
the Lord Bridge of Harwich, who spoke of having reached the age of
"judicial incompetence" and that he must then leave things to those in
their "judicial prime". It is my recollection that the age was 75.
Heart, however, should be taken from the account of a reporter sent to
interview Sir John Mills. She found him apparently asleep wearing
headphones and feared to disturb him. His secretary said that it was
alright: he was learning French. As I recall, he was then blind and in his
nineties.
Wrinklies rule ... what was it you said we rule ... ?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] email traffic - unwanted copy
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:07:06
Jane is just so right. I detest waste of any kind. It's my generation. Why
people choose to pulverise such little mental capacity they may possess
with imbecilic computer games is beyond me. Communication, however, is
everything. It even provides our living.
-----Original Message----From: Jane Read Sent: 23 January 2009 09:56
To: sideline
221
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] email traffic - unwanted copy
Abolishing the Web, and specifically such resource-guzzlers as Second Life
and World of Warcraft, would have far more effect on CO2 emissions than
deleting a few lines from an email.
Jane Read
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:40:35
Subject: [SIdeline] Kick starting the economy
I keep the obvious works of reference like Booth and Mulvany but the
thought has just struck me whether I do indeed have all the indexing
reference books I ought to have. Is there such a thing as a current list of
those recommended works which you cannot be seriously in business without?
Obviously, one could devote one's entire disposable income to what would be
useful/interesting to have but what are the present essentials? I am
willing to spend some money here. Perhaps there are others caught in the
same snow drift who didn't like to admit it.
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:57:44
Subject: [SIdeline] Winterlich Humor haben [OT]
My neighbours, who are ever so slightly Polish, have built a lady snow
person of the opposite sex and very statuesque she is too. Not quite sure
about the plastic bucket as a hat though.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] (OT) snowmen
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:04:35
Bulbs started sprouting in my garden before the leaves had finished falling
which would incline one to the counter-intuitive view that winter does not
exist.
A collegiality of indexers? Unless you have been left on the shelf ...
--
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 12:03:47
Subject: [SIdeline] Leics/East Mids (vaguely)
A couple of us wonder whether there would be any interest in the occasional
gathering over a pub lunch in this neck of the woods.
Leicestershire/Northants is well provided with rather pleasant villages
and, where there is a pleasant village, there is commonly an agreeable pub
providing a decent lunch.
Please let me know if the idea appeals to anyone else.
To: "'Ann Kingdom'" <[email protected]> Cc:
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Leics/East Mids (vaguely)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 13:15:01
Dear Ann,
222
Thank you. That would be delightful. This only arose from a chance
conversation yesterday and there may only ever be very few of us.
As ever,
John
-----Original Message----From: Ann Kingdom [mailto:[email protected]]
2009 12:56
To: john jeffries Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Leics/East Mids (vaguely)
Sent: 06 February
Dear John
This is an excellent idea. Why not talk to Catherine Hall, our new Groups
Coordinator about starting a new group. (Am copying her into this) There
is certainly a bit of a black hole in the middle of the country as far as
groups are concerned, both East Midlands and West Midlands. the nearest
groups are West Anglia, Three Choirs and Yorkshire.
If you want someone to come along and encourage you, I would be happy
do so - part of my remit as chair is to visit local groups.
to
bw
Ann
At 12:03 PM 06/02/2009, you wrote: >A couple of us wonder whether there
would be any interest in the >occasional gathering over a pub lunch in this
neck of the woods. > >Leicestershire/Northants is well provided with rather
pleasant villages >and, where there is a pleasant village, there is
commonly an agreeable >pub providing a decent lunch. > >Please let me know
if the idea appeals to anyone else. > >
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 07:34:23
Subject: [SIdeline] East Mids
Many thanks to Angela Hall, Ann Kingdom, Catherine Hall, Eileen Reeve,
Lauren Patrick, Sharon Laverick and Sue Tricklebank for helpful and
constructive responses.
A meeting will be arranged when and if the snow ever lifts.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Spelling standards (OT)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:43:11
A music publisher, perhaps?
Simples.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Index required - Ladies & Gents
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:38:49
It's not ever day we manage to combine nudity, cats and khasis.
223
As it happens, whether one is clad or not, the most comfortable seat to be
found in the house is usually under the cat.
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:03:38
Subject: [SIdeline] Market Harborough: A fine life in the East Mids
I took the advice of a reliable officer in Her Majesty's Royal Navy as to a
suitable watering hole in Market Harborough worthy of a gathering of
Indexakats. Gratefuls for other recommends and comments.
Simples
Without doubt I would recommend the Waterfront restaurant
www.waterfrontbarandrestaurant.com/
I can't recommend it enough. you can
look at the price list on the website, but their customer service is really
good as you can order upstairs in the relaxed bar area and then you are
brought to your table downstairs just as they are about to serve the
starters. Really nice setting and a firm favourite.
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:22:31
Subject: [SIdeline] Midkats: the next generation
Further to my previous, The Boss says I can ask the office for a list of
members in the relevant area if I can provide postcodes (eg LE for Leics).
Anyone who *might* be interested in such a gathering could help me by
letting me have a note of their postcode such that, Internet crosssellingwise, I can contact other members who might be interested.
Gratefuls,
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Membership renewal
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:27:53
As is invariably the case, Maureen is quite right. My pile of paper is
already so high that, were it collapse upon me, I could demand compensation
... except that I should have to demand it from myself. Direct debits suit
me fine. It's one problem less - especially when there has been so much
snow and ice about that even the district nurses won't attend: and you can
just forget about the post and the bin men. And, if the Highway Authority
grits roads, sure as hell, it doesn't do mine.
-----Original Message----From: Maureen MacGlashan Sent: 18 February 2009 14:17
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Membership renewal
I don't suppose I'm the only person not to have renewed my membership. Why
not? Because I can't cope with anything of this sort that reaches me
through the post. I put the bumph into my "to do" pile, which is as good
as burying it for ever.
I've asked in the past, and ask again now whether it wouldn't be possible
for us to do all of this electronically. I would then renew immediately I
got the prompt, and run off a copy (already filled in in legible type
224
rather
alone.
than illegible manuscript) for my records. Or perhaps in this I am
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] paper vs email - was Membership renewal
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:07:03
That is surprising. It's a day when James the Post does a walk. I consign
the invitation to join the Folio Society, take up an unbelievable offer on
motor insurance, an appeal on behalf of the blind virgins of Luton, and
central heating cover from eon, to the recycling bag. I open the envelope
and cudgel my wits over a form which, while not actually telling me I
should not attempt to write on both sides of the page at once, strains such
intellectual capacity as remains to me. Then I look for where I have put my
cheque book and wipe the cobwebs there from. Then I find I have no stamps.
Then I trudge off up to the Post Office. Que?
Well, that's interesting, because it's the other way round for me. I get so
little by post these days that every letter is an event, whereas unless I
deal with emails more or less immediately they join a virtual pile of
hundreds, if not thousands, and I seem to be entirely capable of not
noticing important ones!
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:53:30
Subject: [SIdeline] CompareTheMidkats.com
Waterfront Bar and Restaurant
What about a booking for Thursday 2nd April? Helpfuls if I advise the
hapless management as to what numbers they might expect. Should they
sensibly bar the door against us, there is no shortage of other places in
Market Harborough.
Gratefuls
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:50:11
Subject: [SIdeline] CompareTheMidkats.com [moreOT by the hour]
If you would rather compare meerkats follow the link. These baby meerkats
are far too young to wear velvet smoking jackets
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7901055.stm>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7901055.stm
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Time
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:02:15
I was so far vexed by the issue of companies extracting free credit from
sole traders through late payment that I wrote to Mandy. That was exactly
two months ago ....
225
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Time
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:39:42
For a trade debt in England the forum conveniens is England because you
would take action in the jurisdiction where the undertaking has its
principal place of business and, by the Brussels Regulation, the judgment
of an English court is enforceable elsewhere in the European Union.
In short any EU undertaking could pursue such a debt - whether you would
get your money, however, is another story altogether. And, if in the
meantime the punter goes bust it's another one to put down to experience.
-----Original Message----From: Jacqueline Pitchford, Index 'n Things
Sent: 23 February 2009 10:26
To: 'Kathleen Lyle'; 'sideline'
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Time
Thanks for the tip, Kathleen. I should do, but the problem is that I work
and live in Luxembourg while my clients are based in the UK or in the
Netherlands. I don't know if I have any rights under this specific Act.
Maybe there is an EU-regulation (maybe anyone knows??).
But at least I could mention the Act on my reminders to UK customers,
charge the interest and see what happens...
-----Original Message----From: Kathleen Lyle Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:11 AM
To: sideline
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Time
Jacqueline Pitchford, Index 'n Things wrote: > I usually have to wait even
longer. The worst one at the moment is an > invoice dated 22/11/2008 which
still has not been paid, even after several > follow-ups and a satisfied
customer.
I hope you have pointed out the requirements of the Late Payment of
Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 and added the appropriate interest
your invoice.
to
If we all did this every time payment was late (and I admit I don't,
although I've never had to wait as long as this) the message might start
to get through. -- Kathleen Lyle
Editorial Consultant 43 Rectory Road
Phone (+44) 1865 427878 Oxford OX4 1BU, UK
[email protected]
#####
#####
##### mailto:
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Time is money
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:52:59
It cannot be breach of contract. For a contract to subsist there must be
"valuable consideration". So, if you do the work according to the standards
of a skilled practitioner in good faith and the punter won't pay you, they
are the ones in repudiatory breach.
I once took considerable satisfaction in entering judgment against a major
law firm. It's on their credit rating for ever!
226
Hello This raises an interesting question - in practice, would withholding
copyright mean withholding the right to publish the index? If so, would
this be a breach of contract since the purpose of commissioning an index is
to have an index to publish?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Time is money
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:24:32
Same as I just said. No one can demand assignment of copyright because the
fit takes them. There has to be valuable consideration. A Broadwood piano
would come into this category but old-fashioned folding money is usually
preferable.
I have been paid by return of post. Not often - but it has happened.
What happens with those index commissioners etc who request transfer of
copyright etc?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] sideline:
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:57:33
Space for indexes
Hs anyone got a rough rule of thumb for estimating what is the ratio
between number of entries (supposing entries of an averagely usual number
of characters - say 30) and extent (supposing the index to be set on
ordinary book-sized pages - say Royal Octavo - in a reasonable pitch - say
10 on 12)? I have a big jobbie in hand where they say that want an index of
no more than 70 pages though how you tell how many pages an index will be
cast off at is something I do not know: especially before you have started.
-----Original Message----From: Jill Dormon Sent: 25 February 2009 13:35
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] sideline: Space for indexes
Hi all,
I just wonder if others suffer the problem I often do these days of lack of
space allowed for the index (in relatively short books). At the moment, I
am trying to create something like a useful index of 350 lines maximum to a
155 page text on diabetes and endocrinology (medical student to GP
level, not highly specialist but detailed). I must admit to feeling quite
ratty about this, especially since I recently had to curtail an index to
make space for a 2-page "alphabetical list of conditions" at the front of a
dermatology text!?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] sideline:
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:41:00
Space for indexes
Thanks for comments. Brief because ntl seems to be playing silly b's this
afternoon.
227
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:20:14
Subject: [SIdeline] Midkats
I have compared dates with many Midkats and recommend that Tuesdays are
more convenient than Thursdays. Now aiming for Tuesday April 7 in Market
Harborough which is very suitable for MidlandMainLineRailkats.
I will give instructions to management to admit all wearing claret smoking
jackets. Burgundy is acceptable and velvet preferred. Ruby port, however,
will be quickly shown the door. Even in this day and age, certain standards
must be upheld.
Simples
Subject: RE: [Sideline] SI-Indexjobs. Am I missing something?
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:10:27
I wish to draw attention to my bad leg. It's been in some sort of therapy
these two years gone by and frequently requires bandaging. As a result, I
have become rather a connoisseur of bandaging. You may think that this is
something which nurses do but, if you have the misfortune to visit an A&E
department with a bad leg, you will find that no nurse on duty is qualified
to apply compression bandaging. Those who have been trained have been
trained in much the same way, follow the similar procedures and do it for a
living. In my case, only Big Denise can do it properly. I don't know why.
It's just the way it is.
I would draw a parallel with driving as it used to be. There were those who
were too old to have been required to pass a driving test; those qualified
drivers of experience; and newly qualified. All were equally entitled to
drive at 70 mph on a motorway. Nothing in the process of qualification
bears much relationship to practical driving skill. For some, as long as
they drive, they will never get any better. One can either do it or not.
Some drivers will still be lethal however much training they are given.
Same way with the fair Dr Hadley. Either she can mend my health or not. My
trust is in what she can do - not a string of letters after her name the
significance of which conveys little to my mind. Same way with the punters.
We can construct all the hoops we like for ourselves to jump through and
adorn ourselves with enough decorations to cover a Christmas tree: the
punters only understand whether they are satisfied with the job. Same way
with having my leg bandaged. If paper qualifications are necessary, they
are certainly not sufficient.
That's enough of me blathering on.
Subject: RE: [Sideline] SI-Indexjobs. Am I missing something?
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:26:19
All the same, it must be thought a little odd that a body which purports to
raise professional standards might raise up those with little experience
over those who have done so many indexes they have long since forgotten
which they are. This is not to say for one moment that those newly
qualified are not diamond quality. In the nature of things, if we have any
hope in the future, some will have to be. I trade on my reputation and I
seem to have been able to con a lot of people for a very long time. My
problem with peer group evaluation is that I am now too old to really care
about it.
228
-----Original Message----From: Ann Kingdom Sent: 28 February 2009 15:57
To: bill johncocks; sideline
Subject: Re: [Sideline] SI-Indexjobs. Am I missing something?
Hi
At 12:09 PM 28/02/2009, bill johncocks wrote: >On 24th February, Judith
Menes announced the new SI-Indexjobs >service and on 27th, Ann Kingdom
said we should already start using >and promoting it. Quite a short trial
then!
This *is* the trail. We can't see how it will work without using it.
>Am I alone in my concerns about allowing clients to post to this
>service, rather than members? Isn't it predictable that this will
down rates by encouraging them to choose the lowest price >among
respondents rather than negotiating with individual members?
>drive
But they could have done that with anyone replying to jobs posted on
SIdeline.
>And will the facility to be open to anyone, regardless of whether
>they're consistently paying uneconomic rates or expecting >turnarounds
incompatible with quality work? If so, it's very >undesirable indeed.
The list is moderated - if a request were to come in with a ridiculous fee
or turnaround date, we would suggest that this was not reasonable. We
could refuse to post it to the list.
>The advantages of the present system were that one could recommend a
>good indexer known to one, or return a favour,
But you can still do that!
Let's give this new system a chance, rather than condemning it before
had a chance to prove itself, one way or another.
it's
bw
Ann
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Trainees
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:27:22
Well here's a thing. I don't know what notice anyone has ever taken of what
I say on this but I've two degrees, a diploma in librarianship, I was a
member of the Institute of Information Scientists and a fellow of the
Library Association as they then were. I've lived by indexing alone since
1991 and I have created getting on for a thousand indexes for punters who
speak highly of me ... but I'm still not a pukka sahib in the eyes of the
Society of indexers.
-----Original Message----From: June Morrison Sent: 02 March 2009 11:14
To: sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] Trainees
I imagine many "trainees" - now made to sound deprecating by some
229
correspondents - must be angry if not enraged. (Even the term -trainee- is
almost as dispiriting as "yellow spot"!)
Some are very experienced indexers (with indexing software) and have
produced many commercial indexes. Qualifying has become desirable since
they retired - if they wish to carry on with their skills and go for a
second career.
(If scientists, they are probably surprised at the content of the Training
Course.)
These eminences grises have in the past qualified for Indexers Available by
Registration, not training. This was "by the back door" - and is it not the
case that now Registration/Fellowship is/will be only available to AIs?
June Morrison (RRC and FSI)
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Trainees
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:57:17
Does this really mean that I am pukka sahib after all? Albeit, grey bearded
and bald headed and by the back door. I am not sure that I am enjoying the
conjoint imagery. Just as well I don't need any more work.
No., that is not the case. Fellowship is still open to any member who can
supply the required evidence of experience and index quality, as detailed
on the Fellowship page of the website
To: "'Mark Wells'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Sideline SIjobslist
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 12:41:54
All the more so when one reflects that what is contemplated, in so far as I
can be said to understand it, has rather the colour of a restrictive trade
practice.
-----Original Message----From: Mark Wells Sent: 05 March 2009 12:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Sideline SIjobslist
Glyn says: <I don't think we can expect a methodology or feedback from
SIJobslist in a free market situation.>
Free markets - wonderful things I am sure - but they don't exist any more
than free lunches do. Perfect competition is an abstract model for
academics, the rest of us have to live in the real world (where
incidentally the financial markets that are so marvellously 'free' are
collapsing all over the place).
The SI's role is not to promote 'competition' between members but (amongst
other things) to promote high standards and help protect members'
legitimate interests - this is why this Jobslist may be a bad idea because
it seems to do neither.
230
Sorry for the rant Glyn but the phrase 'free market' has a strange affect
on me...
Mark
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Multiples
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 14:12:27
Of course, all my postings are so excellent they all should be received six
times but I think this is a server issue. I have noticed that blueyonder is
particularly afflicted with the problem.
-----Original Message----From: John Noble Sent: 05 March 2009 13:48
To: sideline
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Sideline SIJobslist
I was going to say something like that. It isn't everymail from the list,
but a significant number. The first multiple I had was from Diepeveen,
which I think had four, John J's was repeated 6 times all coming in at
once
John Noble
> Is it just me or is everyone getting multiple copies of the same e-mails
> from SIdeline today? > > Martin >
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Sideline SIJobslist
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 14:29:33
I do try to disagree with Laurence: really I do. Once again, I find it
impossible. It seems to be the more so with each passing day.
I repeat, I'm sure it was done with the best intentions, but there seem
some important caveats warranting the consideration of its immediate
withdrawal for the meantime (before it becomes difficult to withdraw).
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 14:20:25
Subject: [SIdeline] Email
A number of people are reporting difficulties with email traffic today. If
the ISPs cooked the spam from the start may be some of our problems might
be over. As it is, we will have to put it down to global warming, the
credit crunch or the residual effects of the three day week or what ever.
Personally, I blame the escaped skunk which sprayed an old dog in Keighley,
West Yorks. Even in West Yorks, that makes quite a stink.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Augustine of Hippo, ethnicity of
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 16:06:29
Little to be gained here. No one will ever know what he looked like. Over
231
the south door of Lincoln Cathedral there is a carving of Our Lord in Glory
with a decidedly Afro hair-style.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Augustine of Hippo, ethnicity of
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 06:52:33
Under customary international law, a successor state adopts all the
obligations if its predecessor unless specifically repudiated. The only
naughtiness which comes into play is of the type, as with some of the
Baltic States, where by legislation nationality was automatic for all who
had been citizens at the time of the Soviet annexation together with their
blood descendants. The consequence was to deprive of nationality all those
Russians who had settled there in the intervening years - effectively
rendering them stateless.
Thus, by parity of reasoning, we can conclude that Philip the Bold, Duke of
Brabant, was indeed a famous Belgian even though Belgium did not exist in
his day. Now name two others. Hercule Poirot does not count.
-----Original Message----From: Jackie Speel Sent: 07 March 2009 22:17
To: Sideline
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Augustine of Hippo, ethnicity of
There also is/was a discussion on what Mother Teresa's nationality actually
was - given that she was born before the state of Albania came into
existence.
Jackie Speel
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Augustine of Hippo, ethnicity of
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 09:15:19
As it happens I should have mentioned Django Reinhardt and Cesar Franck
(both of whom, oddly enough, changed their names).
Actually, it's quite nice here and I'd be really happy were it not that I
have been up since 3 am with my various afflictions one of which is
arbitration law.
-----Original Message----From: David W McAllister [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 08 March
2009 09:06
To: john jeffries Cc: 'Sideline'
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Augustine of Hippo, ethnicity of
On 8 Mar 2009, at 06:52, john jeffries wrote:
Now name two others. Hercule Poirot does not count.
That font of all wisdom Wikipedia list 3712 items when on enters "famous
Belgians" into its search.
I do notice the both Hercule and Brussels
appear on the first page so the number may be somewhat lower!
Regards to all at their computer on the cold and snowy morning David
232
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 10:10:55
Subject: [SIdeline] Famous Women
As it is International Women's Day, let's change the thread and take
nominations for the greatest women of all time.
I respectfully nominate HSH Princess Noor un nisa Inayat Khan GC, MBE,
croix de guerre, mentioned in dispatches (posthumous) of the Special
Operations Executive, tortured and murdered in Dachau 13 September 1944
aged 30 yrs who never told lies, never betrayed anyone and also studied
music.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Sideline SIJobslist[Scanned]
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:33:15
"The logic of outsourcing is that the work is done in a country better
suited to doing the work - so it is more economically efficient to have an
engine built where there are suitable supplies of metals and fuel, rather
than bringing the raw resources here and doing the work at home."
Not exactly. It is a question of factor cost which tends to general
equilibrium over time in the absence of market segmentation. It is a matter
of exploiting a pricing differential in the short/medium term. If there is
a difference, an entrepreneur will always find a way of exploiting it.
Because it is exploited, the difference will eventually disappear. This is
why the Polish plumbers are going back to Poland. If we are to compete, it
is no good being short term cheap - we have to be long term better.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Famous Luxembourgers [was: famous Belgians]
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:29:50
The most interesting thing about Luxembourg is that, for such a small
country, it has two official languages (French and German) and a third
language all of its own (Letzeburgesch).
-----Original Message----From: Kathleen Lyle Sent: 09 March 2009 11:16
To: sideline
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Famous Luxembourgers [was: famous Belgians]
Jacqueline Pitchford, Index 'n Things wrote: > And more (they are getting
really enthousiastic now!):
I think they are interpreting "famous" in a special Luxemburgeois (?sp)
sense - I've never heard of any of these people.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Pop-up window asking to download info
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 14:54:14
Pop-ups are seldom going to be of any value to the recipient. Respectfully
submit: a full scan for the removal of any privacy objects.
-----Original Message-----
233
From: John Sampson Sent: 09 March 2009 14:42
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Pop-up window asking to download info
A pop-up window has appeared on my computer asking permission to download
info from my computer in connection with a survey of users of Canon
printer/scanners. I have drivers and software for a Canon scanner on my
computer, but I am not running these. There is no icon for them in the
bottom right corner of the Windows XP desktop, whatever it is called. Nor
is my Web browser running.
I am wondering by what route this window arrived on my computer. Has anyone
else seen this?
I have clicked on 'No', but of course whether that will be honoured or not
I do not know. I am running a third-party firewall.
Regards
_John Sampson_
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:04:11
Subject: [SIdeline] Brazil Nuts (OT)
Everyone having gone strangely quiet ...
This is on topic to the extent that it is preventing me from getting on
with the serious business of anti-cartel enforcement.
I bought me a bird feeder from an English Heritage site - which is intended
for surplus slices of toast being a wire mesh container with two wooden
supports and a chain from which to suspend the contrivance. I like mixed
nuts but hate brazil nuts so put them out for the birds. There is no damage
to the feeder yet the nuts disappear at a rate of knots and those that
remain show no signs of having been pecked by birds. My chief concern is
the risk of encouraging vermin but even so I don't know how anything gets
the nuts out again other than by psycho-kinesis. Any theories? It seems to
be a case of the curious incident of the nuts in the night time unless it
is the giant rat of Sumatra, a story for which the world is not yet
prepared.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Brazil Nuts (OT)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:52:47
Many thanks for comments. The reason I doubt the squirrel hypothesis is
that there is no damage to the feeder itself and one would have to imagine
them suspended by their back legs hauling up individual nuts with their
front claws through the mesh. But there are few acts of infamy of which a
squirrel is incapable.
I like the woodpecker theory. Greens have been seen not all that from here
and once, but only once, last year I was visited by a Greater Spotted.
I have clocked 25 bird species from my seat of beleaguered employment in
the year to date. Any advance?
I have not had to chase Hazel Blears - sorry a chipmunk - around my living
room since Mr Stevens at the back retired from the RSPCA.
234
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Vista problems (sort of OT)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 10:54:47
Strange to relate, I had a comparable problem with XP last week when I
accepted an update to Ad-Aware. Everything began to take an interminable
time. In the end I called out CyberSikh who found that something was
keeping the CPU fully occupied (a bit like on the Heart of Gold when the
Nutrimatic machine is trying work out why the monkey-man wants boiled
leaves). In the end, he took Ad-Aware off altogether and said he would come
back and double the memory.
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:46:05
Subject: [SIdeline] Tabling - work available
I have been asked to recommend a tabler for a legal work (insolvency) due
round about the end of this month. Not in a position to say how much work
there is in it but it has been cast off at 450 pages. Publishers are
kosher.
Anyone interested please get in touch ASAP.
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:20:18
Subject: [SIdeline] East Midlands Lunch
I would now like to firm up out numbers for lunch on Tuesday 7th April ay
12.00hrs. Everyone is cordially invited. Please let me know if you
intend/are still able to join us.
Thank you
The Waterfront restaurant: www.waterfrontbarandrestaurant.com/
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 10:36:06
Subject: [SIdeline] East Mids Lunch cancelled
It would seem that next Tuesday is a very inconvenient date and I suggest
that a meeting be postponed until it is possible to accommodate more
people. Thanks to all who have expressed interest and provided
encouragement and support.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] legal cases
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 06:56:56
The short answer is that it is probably better not to index the names of
the parties at all and concentrate on the subject matter of the action
alone. If a list of cases were to have been considered important, the desk
editor would have asked for a table.
235
-----Original Message----From: English Cottage Garden Nursery Sent: 31 March 2009 20:42
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] legal cases Hello everyone, particularly the wise old
owls who index legal texts! The book I am indexing at the mo has a few
legal cases mentioned - all use the surnames but one example uses full
names - Ronald Hayward v. John Marshall.
So - would you put it under R and then cross ref under J as John Marshall,
Ronald Hayward v.? Or would you invert the names from the start and have
it under H, and cross-ref under M for Marshall?
As it is written Ronald Hayward v. John Marshall I am inclined to index it
thus and cross ref under J - but what do I know, I am not at all au fait
with legal indexing!
Also, a few are written as In re John E. Dannenberg on Habeas Corpus - I
have put this under I and then alphabetised using the christian name each
time as the point of alphabetisation - is that correct?
Any advice gratefully received.
Thanks.
Teresa Sinclair
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:33:58
Subject: [SIdeline] Don't Panic
I was glad of the warning and acted as suggested. Unfortunately, although
the 1st April has come, it has not gone and I have some privileged
information that trouble was anticipated in advance of the G20 meeting.
When it comes to vigilance the best thing to do is be vigilant: it's not as
if it were much trouble.
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:41:35
Subject: [SIdeline] Music and Young people
Dear Rob,
I don't know that it is all bad news. There is a town church where the
vicar is no particular music enthusiast but calls for full choral Evensong
because it means bums on pews. And the choir stalls are bursting at the
seams with kids who want to sing. It doesn't take much effort to show
anyone what joy good music brings.
As ever,
John
Subject: FW: [SIdeline] Music and Young people
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:48:34
Please ignore my last. Hit the wrong address. My excuse is the trauma of
having to visit the Tooth Fairy ;o)
236
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Gaelic titles in index
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 13:45:59
Garda Siochana appears in the Chambers dictionary under G without the
definite article.
-----Original Message----From: Margaret Christie Sent: 03 April 2009 13:25
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Gaelic titles in index
I am indexing a book which includes several Gaelic names of piobaireachd
(i.e. not personal names, more equivalent to book titles in indexing
terms). Whether I put these in one entry or spread them through the index,
the question arises of whether I should put articles at the end, e.g.
_Rioban Dearg, An_
as I am doing with English titles, e.g.
_Red Ribbon, The_
or leave them as they are, as in
_An Rioban Dearg_ (filed at A).
The book is in English, and I would guess that the vast majority of its
likely readers will be as ignorant of Gaelic as I am, i.e. more or less
totally ignorant. (But please don't let's get this sidetracked into the
issue of whether I should have taken on the book! I'm confident that the
author will correct any Gaelic-related mistakes I make, and the Gaelic
content is a very small proportion of the book.)
Which do you think is more appropriate/helpful?
Margaret Christie [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Romanov ancestors
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 13:34:39
Socially, the first named would have been addressed as Andrei Ivanovich and
his son as Fedor Andreovich. For the great grandsons it would be necessary
to know their father's first name to give them their full handles. Kobyla
is the family name [see Mulvany p.176] which is the right place to file.
-----Original Message----From: Linda Sutherland Sent: 04 April 2009 13:13
To: Sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] Romanov ancestors
- Andrei Ivanovich Kobyla - his son Fedor - Fedor's great grandsons Iakov,
Iurii and Roman
The first I think I can index under 'Kobyla', because he seems to be
referred to as such (in some sources at least, though not in the text I'm
working on). But I can find no clue to any standard way of referencing the
237
descendants named above. Is there a standard form?
Linda Sutherland [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Gaelic titles in index
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:40:55
Bill wrote:
... There is though a wider point here, which is that you can perhaps be
too clever. If (and only if) you're indexing for a general audience,
getting the thing right isn't necessarily the best policy...
I vote for this every time but, so far as the definite article is
concerned, there is a problem when that definite article is part of a
formal name/title, or what ever - implying singularity as in the name of
two countries (The Gambia and The Netherlands) or even some Scottish
chieftains who are styled in the form, "The McAnon of McAnon". Every time
it arises I wonder what is best and am never certain I've got it right. And
it's just the sort of thing to set some ratbag of an author on your trail.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing rag[a]s
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 14:06:19
Raga is from the Sanskrit word with a bar over the first "a", meaning
musical colour or tone and my understanding is that the modes vary
according to the times of the day or seasons when they are played and are
also associated with different emotional states [perhaps there should be a
sick of indexing on public holidays raga]. Ragini is from the Sanskrit word
with a bar over the "a" and the second "i" meaning coloured and is a
modified raga.
Scholes says that, "a raga is roughly
traditional regulations as to its use
associated with it in improvisation."
you are a better man than I am Gungha
describable as a scale plus
and the melodic turns to be
And if that means anything to you,
Din.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:19:04
Subject: [SIdeline] Brazil nuts [OT]
Since so many of you were kind enough to be interested, I am now in a
position to unmask to you the villain of the piece. It was not the greybird
with the bushy tail, it was the one with beady eyes and ears like taxi
doors: Winston the Woodmouse. I should not have credited it had I not seen
it with mine own eyes.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Quoting for scripture ref index
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:44:10
Without knowing more, this sounds like a wholly unreasonable task even as
indexing goes. For example, take the line "Let the fiery cloudy pillar" in
A&M 196. This would appear to be a reference to Exodus 13:21 albeit a
little scrambled. How could one possibly infer this from the text of the
hymn? Even after research one may still not have entered the mind of the
writer of either text. I remember an episode of HIGNFY when Ian Hislop was
238
challenged to attribute any meaning to the second verse of A&M 676: he did
- but he must be of a very small company of pilgrims.
If they want editorial research done, that is what they would have to pay
for.
-----Original Message----From: [email protected] Sent: 22 April 2009 15:13
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Quoting for scripture ref index
Hi,
Does anyone have any suggestions for a 'rate per hymn' or other guidelines
for quoting for a scripture reference index?
I've been asked to quote for a scripture index and a keyword index for a
hymnbook of 502 hymns. The client said their normal rate was £10 an hour
which I said was considerably lower than the recommended minimum. We left
it that they were going to come back with a suggested figure for the whole
job. (I was hoping to get a feel for how big a job they thought it was and
what they've paid in the past.) In the meantime I sent an email mentioning
the SI figure of £20.50 per hour.
In a further phone call they said they could send some material, and would
prefer me to give a quote. So the ball is back in my court.
My feeling is that identifying and checking references to scripture in hymn
texts is not a speedy task - in effect almost every entry will require a
degree of research. My knowledge of the bible is good, but I still
anticipate having to use concordances etc. With such a large number of
hymns, a variation of a few minutes per hymn adds up to a lot of hours over
all.
I'm nervous of quoting for a large number of hours at double their 'normal'
rate, but neither do I want to err too far in the other direction. A 'rate
per hymn' might be useful, but I'm not sure what would be reasonable.
This is my first commission, so any advice or encouragement would be
welcome!
Thanks
-Wendy Baskett
[email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] IA renewal/IA JOBSLIST/dealing with email
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:23:23
It is with a heavy heart that I enter this discussion at all. The business
to do with email and whether the dog has eaten it seems to be a side action
and well in the realms of things I don't understand. Equally, no one is
going to make me feel bad about myself because of it.
I have even less idea what the JOBSLIST looks like because I have never
seen one. It is also true, moreover, that I don't count myself amongst
those who feel that the EB is a bit like the Zimbabwe Politburo. Having
been there myself I know how much thanks one can expect to receive for
239
voluntary professional involvement.
The issue can only be whether the JOBSLIST is a good notion or not and, so
far as I can see, the majority opinion - amongst those who have had any
exposure to it - seems to be that it should be buried along with the dog's
bone. If this be so, I should say we have reached problem over time.
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 10:10:15
Subject: [SIdeline] All this stuff
I cannot help but feel that this debate has become twisted in upon itself.
Perhaps the most telling comment of all was the report that the punters
preferred the most "competitive" rate. Now, in terms of comparing indexers,
this is no more than a euphemism for "cheapest". It means exactly what
Maureen said would happen: "a race to the bottom." As comparison goes, it
is about as useful as saying that a Ford Focus is more competitively priced
than a Mercedes-Benz. Whether the one is better value for money than the
other, or any other, is a question of fact. All we able to infer is that
the one is cheaper than the other because it is more cheaply manufactured.
Collegiality appears to demand that all indexers are regarded equal and, as
citizens so we are, but not in terms of professional competence: I should
no sooner accept a commission on astronomy as apply for astronaut training.
I suffer from the apprehension that the Society intends to raise standards
in indexing. If the opposite is the case, then come next January, I'll be
making a contribution to the local authority paper recycling scheme and
saving myself a few quid besides.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] IA Jobs List
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 12:15:31
"Given the option of paying more or less, they chose less."
Quite so but it still evades the issue. Given the choice of paying the
Tooth Fairy £4.50, or what ever, rather than 45 squids to fix my front
incisor I might ask myself whether this person is professionally competent
or an enthusiastic amateur with a brace and bit and a taste for DIY. Eating
having become one of the few pleasures of the flesh remaining to me, I
don't have a problem with paying the "going rate" for having my teeth
fixed.
I think I'd rather hear more about professional standards than pound notes
especially when the second flows naturally from the first.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Titles of Periodical Articles
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:36:00
"Tragedy of the Commons" is a term of art. It's when people rape and
pillage a public resource without any thought for anyone else and to the
point of destruction on the basis that, if they do not do the robbing
first, someone else will. So, perhaps not changing the subject entirely
after all.
Just to change the subject entirely, I have a title of a journal article
which I have put in an index as:
'The Tragedy of the Commons' (Hardin)
240
Any alternatives? The author has not provided the original reference.
Kathy Lahav
To: "'Michele Clarke'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Shah of Iran
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 09:21:15
He was the ninth and last Shah and second of the Pahlavi Dynasty. The
Cambridge Biographical Encyclopedia has him under Pahlavi.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Shah of Iran
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 09:56:31
As there appears to be opportunities for confusion here, perhaps it would
be nice for someone to produce a brief note for printed publication.
Cambridge gives seven shahs of the Qajar Dynasty (1779-1925) and the two of
the Pahlavi Dynsaty. Before that it lists only the 17 kings of the House of
Achaemenes (c700-329 BCE). Reza Khan was a Cossack officer elected by the
National Assembly after the last Qajar shah was deposed (not many people
know this).
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:45:36
Subject: [SIdeline] Listiquette
Could I make a plea that we stop repeating large quantities of original
message followed by comments? In much of the JobList traffic it has become
increasingly difficult to figure out who is arguing which about what and
why. I do try to follow these discussions with reasonable attention but I
don't want to make a full time job of it. One screen-full ought to be
sufficient space to make a valuable comment. If it really is necessary to
quote the whole, or a substantial part of a previous posting, it is much
clearer to offer the new comments first followed by the context. I think
that List Moderators have ruled on this in the past.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] template letter for emergencies
Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 13:12:39
" ... far too many words and very unbusinesslike."
And a standard letter, used too often by too many different people, may
begin to lose sincerity in the eyes of the reader.
The best advice I ever received was in a seminar organised by the late and
much lamented FT Law & Tax. A director told us that, if we were in trouble
with a job, they'd much prefer it were we brave, held up our hands and said
so.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OUP legal indexing
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 10:35:38
241
Is it fresh ignominy that they haven't asked me? Mind you, it could have
something to do with the fact that the last job they offered me was to be
rewarded with £100 in notes or £200 worth of OUP books - and I told them to
go forth and be fruitful. Then again I've only been in the legal
information racket for 30 years so what use would I be?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OUP legal indexing - and Wiley-Blackwell
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 12:47:47
I have received two copies of this posting from James but not the original
to which it relates. Why is this? Do we sometimes communicate only with the
ether?
-----Original Message----From: James Lamb Sent: 14 May 2009 12:41
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] OUP legal indexing - and Wiley-Blackwell
At 11:16 14/05/2009, [email protected] wrote: >A later email elicited some
sympathy but no rise in fee: 'the problem stems > in part from the fact
that no-one in-house appears to understand what >indexing involves. They
don't take into account the level of >complexity of the >text but base
their per page rates solely on the page size of the book, >which is mad.
....The production editors are under constant >pressure to keep >costs
down.'
The SI does offer (not free) workshops to publishers for their editors to
educate them and help them understand what indexing involves. Clearly the
lack of understanding will lead to rates effectively varying wildly, with
some editors struggling to find indexers and others not understanding why
their colleagues have a problem, so it is beneficial for the publisher to
have its editors attend, even if just to help them be more effective in
negotiations with indexers. Details of the workshop are here
<http://www.indexers.org.uk/index.php?id=133> Perhaps you might have an
opportunity to bring it to the clients attention.
James
Subject: RE: [Sideline] Fees again - was OUP legal indexing
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:18:39
"... we have to be very careful spending public money!"
Nice to know that someone is. I am sure that we can all derive considerable
comfort from this.
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:27:53
Subject: [SIdeline] Missing Things
My capacity for missing things is the marvel of my friends and the
consternation of my enemies and here are examples of three more:
(1) I set to work on a new project and amongst those acknowledged are some
people, "who provided the book's eclectic jazz soundtrack". Que?
242
(2) On a more useful note - if you will allow the pun - I discover that The
Law Society operates the "Lawyers For Your Business" scheme offering a free
consultation from amongst 1,700 law firms which could be useful in the
unfortunate event of a trade dispute.
(3) There is a list of businesses agreeing to pay on time:
www.promptpaymentcode.org.uk.
Apologies to all of you who are better informed than me (as well as being
wiser).
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Ants and afternoon sluggards
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:06:52
[OT]
The shadows now so long do grow, That brambles like tall cedars show,
Molehills seem mountains, and the ant Appears a monstrous elephant.
Evening Quatrains by Charles Cotton
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing bibliography and authors
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 07:44:45
Speaking as one given earache for *not* indexing every reference in
parentheses - in a project very strapped for space - and on another
occasion *for* indexing the names of writers in connection with what was
clearly subject matter, I'd say that you chances of being able to do right
for doing wrong are none existent - so follow you own best judgement as to
what is apt.
-Dr John Jeffries 8 Beech Road, Oadby LEICS LE2 5QL Tel
Txt +44(0)7748413790 Email [email protected]
+44(0)1162719007
-----Original Message----From: [email protected] Sent: 21 May 2009 07:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Indexing bibliography and authors
Hi, everyone,
One of my editors has had an OMG moment with an author who
has 'supposedly
done their own index'. Actually it is two. A subject
index that is 35 lines
long (the book is 120 pages) and an author index.
My editor has passed it on to me to redo as it is totally inadequate so
there is no problem with them. However, the author index seems to be
references to the bibliography and the citations in the text. So I wondered
what your thoughts were on this. When or why would you index the
bibliography? I do not do this since most
of my books have up to 10-15
pages of references and, as this author has done, would mean the whole
index space taken up before you start. And also, the citations in the text,
when would you reference those
authors? As a general rule I index all the
names cited as part of the sentence
(Smith argues the case for...), but
not cited in parentheses (this subject
is.....(Smith)) but I index the
subject in both cases. Reason being that with space considerations the
subject takes precedence over the author, and specific mentions take
precedence to points of
reference. As I am sure the author is going to
have a hissy fit I wondered what you thought.
Thanks in advance, Hazel
Young
243
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing bibliography and authors
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:34:36
I have a difficulty with the cogent analysis James has provided inasmuch as
there seems to be an implicit assumption that the academic mind is ipso
facto a rational mind. Many sorrowful years in a variety of settings have
led me to conclude that the academic is just as susceptible to being
completely barking mad as anyone else. I have come across some who are only
just on the right side of being allowed out in any confidence of safety.
When we are instructed to compromise with sense, we should at least
recognise what we are being called upon to do.
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:13:53
Subject: [SIdeline] Ants again (OT)
It's an odd do. We must be ahead of the game, Andrew Motion having read his
poem "On the Grave of Rupert Brooke" on Radio 3. It is to be found in the
recently published, "The Cinder Path" which I commend to you.
In any event, what ever floats your duck ... (or, "Me Duck", as they say in
these parts).
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing Cited Authors
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:59:26
Strange to relate, I had to confront this issue this morning. It wasn't
until I was almost done that the penny dropped that the author attached
especial significance to the work of a handful of writers who were getting
seldom more than two or three lines in any mention - but a lot of them.
Praise be that I had the .pdf so it was easy to back-track.
-----Original Message----From: Helen Thompson Sent: 22 May 2009 12:01
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Indexing Cited Authors
Ann Hudson said:
>in some indexes I make a rule for myself that I will index if the
quotation is, say, 5 lines plus, and not if it's shorter. Crude, >but at
least an easy rule to stick to - though of course it all depends on the
type of text.
Well we have to make some rules or we'd go bats! Assuming there isn't a
quantity versus quality problem, five lines is reasonable, but any such
rule has to be flexible. Of course, the 'significance' problem is why
human indexers are still needed; a computer could cope with a five line
rule but not produce an index that was consistent as to
relevance/importance of information.
Best wishes,
Helen
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] was Times archives index, now Stones/lawyers
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:33:34
244
The Butterworth marketing strategy was founded upon an appeal to the vanity
of lawyers. The worst problem was that they thought they were finding all
the relevant documents when they were not. I believe that there was one
study of LEXIS use which suggested recall as low as 20%. The problem is
compounded because legal discourse is by no means as consistent and
coherent as many suppose. My particular favourite was an ex parte
application for discovery of documents which was described in the Court of
Appeal as a "Micawber" - you do it in case something turns up.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Half-working on a bank holiday
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:19:05
Be of good comfort, Dr Errington. All bank holidays are to me are those
days when editors never answer emails. Also, school holidays are just those
days when my peace is disturbed by the beasters thudding footballs in the
street outside.
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:50:22
Subject: [SIdeline] Citrix System Upgrade - Indexers, laughing at,
the use of [OT}
for
The punch line (using the expression loosely) is the last paragraph
"From: System Administrator [the name of the local authority has been
excised to protect the guilty]
We will be upgrading the Citrix system this weekend (Saturday 6th June).
Citrix access will not be available between the times of 8 am until 5 pm.
During this period, all Citrix applications will be affected which includes
the following;
Desktop Users (Remote connections) Swift Academy
Microsoft Office (Word, Excel and Outlook) and every other application
published via Citrix.
We apologise for any incontinence this may cause
and if you have any issues or queries regarding this email call the IT
helpdesk on extension 2013.
Systems Administrator"
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: banking
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 09:17:11
I think that I would be guided by standards of service which is probably as
much to do with the personnel in a particular branch as the institution
itself. I've had a Lloyds current account since I was 18 and little reason
to moan about them. I did once hold a savings account at Barclays for no
better reason than they were open on Saturday but you never saw the same
person twice and getting money out became harder than pulling teeth because no identification I could produce, such as a driving licence, was
ever satisfactory - and lengthy delays when ever I asked for anything to be
done. Once, a cashier used a calculator to add two numbers and still got
the answer wrong.
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 06:35:53
Subject: [SIdeline] Military History job available
I have been offered a job I cannot do. It is an autobiography/reminiscences
of a military figure available in the next week or so - and probably about
245
250 pages. Doubt there will be much money in it but the freelance editor is
a very nice person.
Should anyone be interested, please let me know asap and I'll pass on you
details. Thanks.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Military History job available
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:04:57
I have sent the editor details of the first two early risers to reply.
Thanks for the interest.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: SIdeline Digest, Vol 5, Issue 145
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:08:05
Had someone beef once about me putting in returns in a run-on-style index
using Macrex. Drusilla tipped me the office that the answer was to set the
line length at maximum and the problem was over. Dare say that even that
wouldn't be a problem with current type-setting technologies.
Subject: FW: [SIdeline] Military History job available
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:13:12
Very many thanks to all who took the trouble to respond. I'll keep a note
in the event of anything similar turning up.
-----Original Message----From: john jeffries [mailto:[email protected]]
07:05
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Military History job available
Sent: 24 June 2009
I have sent the editor details of the first two early risers to reply.
Thanks for the interest.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Federation of Small Businesses
Date: Sun, 5 July 2009 09:52:03
The National Federation of Self-Employed and Small Businesses Ltd
Registered office: Sir Frank Whittle Way, Blackpool Business Park,
Blackpool FY4 2FE Tel: 01253 336000 Fax: 01253 348046
It is a much respected pressure group.
-----Original Message----From: Avril Ehrlich Sent: 05 July 2009 09:42
To: SIdeline
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: Federation of Small Businesses
Dear all
Is anybody a member of above organisation?
entitle you to some banking benefits.
246
Apparently, membership does
BW
Avril
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Touch typing
Date: Mon, 6 July 2009 09:28:06
Sue wrote:
"Isn't it asking for trouble to keep wrists on the desk? - I understood
that the forearm and hand should be kept in a straight line. That's the
way I was taught to play the piano, and I've carried it over into typing."
The reason that pianists are taught that technique is because the effort
should come from the shoulders. I remember seeing the late Dame Moira
Lympany give a master class where she grabbed one poor sap by the shoulders
and pulled them backwards and forwards. I keep telling them cashier in the
bank not to drop her wrists when she types because she is already
experiencing symptoms of RSI - but no one ever takes any notice of me.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OT crows
Date: Wed, 8 July 2009 11:25:52
>From what I could see of them before they flew off they were 'about the
size of a jay only monochrome' - and this was the NW London area.
Jackdaws.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] OT Meerkats
Date: Wed, 8 July 2009 14:37:44
Who else recommends that the Jameskat change his name to Sergei when he
next upgrades his computamabob?
Respectfuls,
Barmykat
Subject: [SIdeline] Urgent work
Date: Fri, 10 July 2009 11:00:48
"What percentage of authors' 'lists of keywords' are found to be actually
useful?"
Exactly 100 percent. This way, you don't get earache for failing to index
the subjects they haven't written about, but wished they had, or any grief
for using the terminology they have employed but wished they had not.
To: "'Pam Scholefield'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] names
Date: Wed, 15 July 2009 18:19:34
247
"'sideline'"
No one with the slightest interest in Pakistani politics or cricket would
refer to him as anything other than Imran or Imran Khan.
John [who once saw him make a lot of runs at Headingley]
-----Original Message----From: Pam Scholefield Sent: 15 July 2009 17:31
To: sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] names
Dear All,
I am working on an index about cricketers which, of course, has a number of
Indian and Pakistani names for me to work with. I am away from home and
all my references so I am having to search all the names to see if they
need inverting for the index or not. Somewhere ages ago, for instance, I
thought I read that the cricketer Imran Khan should be indexed as Imran
Khan but most people would look him up under Khan, Imran (those in the
English speaking world anyway) and this is a book on cricket quotations.
Maybe I have the wrong idea about this anyway. There is definitely no
space for double-posting as there are more names than there is space
available for the index. Also there will be strings because I can't even do
subheadings! Editor unavailable until Friday. Meanwhile, if I can just get
the names right I will be one step ahead, I think. Looking at the text I
feel that I would best serve the reader to index the names as they would
most be familiar with them which may not be the approved, correct method.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Khan [was cricketing names]
Date: Thu, 16 July 2009 11:45:07
What is beginning to bug me more is that the Khan component on a name is
treated so inconsistently in reference books. I am inclining to the view
that ever to use it as the filing value is wrong as well as unhelpful. I
have found Princess Noor listed under Khan which I know to be wrongly
decided. It seems to be a strange example of something with a status midway between a royal title and a name. For example, in Middle East story
telling, Alexander the Great becomes Sirkander Khan. And, who in their
right senses would invert Genghis Khan? One could argue for ever as to how
the first component should be rendered but that's a different issue.
The Wisden site <http://www.wisden.com/> stores its archives at
<http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/current/story/almanack>
On that site, the page for Imran Khan
<http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/content/player/40560.html> says "Few would
dispute that Imran was the finest..." And (for comparison) the page for Ian
Botham <http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/content/player/9163.html> says "when
Botham (under Mike Brearley's captaincy) led England".
So, I would go with Imran, as Maureen said, and I suspect that the
cricinfo site is as close as you will get to being definitive,
James
At 10:46 16/07/2009, Margaret McCormack wrote: >I guess it must be the
cricket season as I too am doing a cricketing book! >I've noticed that the
author refers to the Indian and Pakistani players by >their first names in
the text while with everyone else it's their surnames. >I may be lucky
248
enough to have room for double postings - if not, I think >I'll highlight
the names in question and ask the editor to decide, maybe by >checking with
the author for a final decision. Hope that doesn't sound like >a cop out!
>Margaret
-- James Lamb
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Khan [was cricketing names]
Date: Thu, 16 July 2009 12:33:57
Indeed, I am old enough to remember an episode of a [Professor] Jimmy
Edwards sitcom where, as the head of an insignificant preparatory school,
he has a near apoplexy when Mr Pettigrew - the admissions tutor - inverts
the name of "Charles Prince" to "Prince Charles" in the list of new pupils.
However, the surname 'King' or 'Prince' is not uncommon in English, French,
Dutch or German either, to name but a few languages. As always, context is
everything.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] biblical citations
Date: Sat, 18 July 2009 12:19:50
If it helps, the running headers in Peake's Commentary on the Bible take
the form:
EPHESIANS, I. 15
In the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations they would rather go:
Ephesians ch. 1, v. 15
And the Book of Common Prayer:
Ephesians 1 v. 15
So, you pays your money and you takes your choice. Doubt it matters much so
long as it is clear and consistent. The only fly in the scriptural ointment
comes with books like I Corinthians and II Corinthians where I would
suggest {I }Corinthians, and so on, if you use Macrex.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: biblical citations
Date: Mon, 20 July 2009 08:42:05
There may be a trap here if one ends up indexing the source material rather
than the text as rendered. These are treacherous waters when one bears in
mind that the OT was written in Hebrew which is a richly symbolic language.
Just because we know what God said doesn't mean to say that we understand
what He meant. Then again, I'm feeling a bit Psalms 22:14 this morning.
To: "'Faith Williams'" <[email protected]>,
"Sideline"
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] (A load of old Greek - and have a slap on the wrist
249
if
you thought that was the Duke of Edinburgh)
Date: Wed, 22 July 2009 11:48:08
A bit of lateral thinking here but if you cut a symbol from Word and paste
it into a search box, it seems to work - even though it is going round the
sun to get to the moon.
In addition to the hyphens problem, forgive my ignorance but does anyone
know how to put Greek characters into a Google search? Is there a resource
somewhere listing keyboard shortcuts for Greek characters?
Date: Sat, 25 July 2009 12:22:24
Subject: [SIdeline] s or z?
I think this has come up before but I have forgotten the resolution. I have
an author who prefers organisation with and an s but Organization with a z
(when it is the name of a particular institution) and not very consistently
either. Mostly it won't make much of a difference but I've a book where it
will. Stick with English English except where it is the official name of a
specific entity? TIA.
Date: Wed, 29 July 2009 16:30:11
Subject: [SIdeline] Plain text
Somewhere in the furthest recesses of what passes for my mind, I have a
recollection that traffic should be in plain text with no attachments. Is
this still so and does it matter?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] PSWP proposals - Advanced experience
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 12:05:13
It is a puzzle to me too. Remuneration surveys are not unknown but usually
only to generate aggregated data. If the question is whether one maintains
oneself mainly or exclusively from indexing, I dare say that one could be
blackguarded for being cheaper than the rest. Should the question be
whether the work is any good may be a matter for peer group assessment but
whether one lives by it or not is a purely objective matter. Were I to say
that over so many years I have completed whatever number of commissions,
and here is a list of them, I should have hoped that my word might be
thought good enough.
I notice that no comments have come in re Linda Sutherland's query. Do any
other professional bodies ask colleagues for information on their income?
Oddly, the monetary figure may be blocked out. If a copy of an index is to
be sent in, and not for assessment, what is the purpose of sending it in?
Is this a cumbersome way of asking for evidence that one is a working
indexer? I'm puzzled.
Alison Brown
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] PSWP proposals
250
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 17:16:51
"Why it matters at all is more of a mystery."
It happens to be the case that I know the person who spent a year editing
the UK Manual of Protective Security and, despite all the best endeavours,
it didn't stop MI5 recruiting terrorist suspects. We have been offered
nothing which cannot be subverted. Indeed, it is hard to see what it
proves. And, if one's clients are to be approached by a third party
demanding to know whether so-and-so indexed such-and-such a book at some
time in the past, they may well be forgiven for thinking that we have taken
leave of our collective senses. Publishers, moreover, have a disobliging
habit of going out of business and, with corresponding malicious intent,
editors change jobs. During the course of the day, I think that my attitude
has hardened: if you are not disposed to believe what I assert is factually
correct then I don't think I want to know you.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] PSWP proposals
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 11:40:34
It may have been a more innocent age, or less sophisticated in its
criminality, but I was awarded my Fellowship of the Library Association by
reason of published work having submitted a list of publications. It seemed
good enough for the dear old LA, God bless its late lamented cotton socks.
I am distressed to hear of such a case as James describes but it is already
prima facie a criminal act seeming to be on all fours with the offence of
obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception.
When I finally lose my marbles, moreover, I have given instructions to my
daughter to place them on the stairs thereby precipitating a swift end to
the matter.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] PSWP proposals
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 12:32:46
"Implicit in the report's definition is that candidates for the Advanced
grade are those who already are getting at least a modestly reasonable
quantity of work."
Clearly so and, as with most qualificatory routes, more appealing to those
at the beginning of a career trajectory than those on the downward slope
and possibly assisting neither. Ora supplex et acclinis ...
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] PSWP proposals
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 10:52:10
"So far as the trust part goes, I'm sure that most of us are completely
trustworthy but that's hardly a basis for awarding advanced membership in a
professional body."
This is a somewhat worrisome take. I ought not to be worried about being
judged as to professional competence. Actually I am because I am very
insecure. I am entitled to be worried should I have to prove at the outset
that I don't tell lies. Now, I maintain business records because HMRC
require it - but even they appear to be content with my signature affirming
that what I say is accurate to the best of my knowledge, information and
belief. It is trite law that anyone who relies on a point has the burden of
251
proving it but this is only in issue when veracity is questioned or
accounts conflict. If the Society entertains any reasonable doubts as to
what a member asserts, it is clearly entitled to enquire further and take
such measures as seem appropriate. (Same way with HMRC investigatory
powers). Without wishing to know any more about it, I presume that this was
the case in the unfortunate matter to which James alluded. And deception is
still a crime and fraudulent misrepresentation a tort: got little to do
with professional competence as such save as to the significant issues of
intellectual honesty and business morality.
Subject: RE: Re[2]: [SIdeline] PSWP proposals
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 11:25:08
Having upset enough people already, I had been minded to button my lip but,
could be that, the time has come for a reality check.
On the one hand, we have a class of member where blood has been sweated in
an endeavour which still gets them little of no work. At the other extreme,
there are those who are offered more work than they can take on the basis
of experience rather than the approbation of independent assessors. In my
own case, there is little point in embarking upon a qualificatory route
which would leave me no better off and which I could not undertake to live
long enough to complete. Indeed, should I survive long enough to complete
the next commission I'll consider that a bonus.
There is an underlying problem of an implicit assumption that one size fits
all. The only thing is: it doesn't - as anyone who has been offered
hospital issue pyjamas will tell you. Albeit small, we are a very diverse
group and it might be better were we to focus our attention on self-help
rather than schemes of evaluation which are so hard to comprehend from
within that I still seriously doubt can be comprehensible from the outside.
If you ask a punter whether they would like to employ a person who is
highly "qualified" rather than one who is less "qualified", how might they
be expected to answer? It's just about as loaded a question as one can
imagine.
The essential difficulty is the equation of qualification with experience
and competence. It might be so, it might not be: there is nothing to show.
I am reminded of a highly qualified lawyer of whom it was said, could
marshal all of the facts, understand all of the principles and follow all
of the arguments ... and still get the wrong answer.
And now. I promise to shut up.
252
2010
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Year, Happy New
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 13:19:00
John Noble wrote:
"A Blwyddyn Newydd Dda i Chi Gyd"
Dda iawn. Mae hin braf iawn heddiw. Diolch yn fawr canmoladwy mynegeion
creawdwr.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] A Publisher's Response
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 14:34:47
Yeah, mate. That's abuse and you should go to court and get your rights for
sho. This English and stuff is not their bag and we have issues with that.
Right? D'yer know what I mean? Isn't it? Erghh ...
-----Original Message----From: Linda Haylock Sent: 08 February 2010 14:24
To: sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] A Publisher's Response
Here's an amusing response (just received) from a publisher after touting
for work: "Wow
How wonderfully 1950's publishing.
Sorry but no thanks or the profered service."
Charming! I'd better work on getting my correspondence to sound more 'with
it'. And maybe he should work on his to sound more literate.
Linda Haylock BA, MSc Accredited Indexer 86 West Hill Dunstable Beds
3PW
LU6
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Classical Roman Names
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 10:48:53
Until I came to think of it, I should not have supposed that the very
learned senator Iuanus Silvestris could open such a can of worms here. The
advice given by Mulvany is to follow AACR2 for antique Romans flourishing
before 476 of the Christian Era: to enter under the part of the name most
commonly used but, when in doubt, to leave uninverted. This, when one
thinks on, amounts to a cop out of some proportions. Firstly, names are
seldom rendered in the full form. Uncle Clau-Clau-Claudius is invariably
just Claudius not Tiberius Claudius Drusus Nero Germanicus and the hairy
second (son, no son, of the hairy first) was also given to filching the
name of the hairy first. Secondly, Julius Caesar called himself Caesar but
most of us would probably think Julius first even though, if memory serves,
it was Gaius Julius Caesar. Perhaps Maureen sees an article on present
thinking forming in the air.
253
-----Original Message----From: John Silvester Sent: 01 March 2010 10:18
To: Sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] Classical Roman Names
Friends, Romans and countrymen,
I wonder if someone could refresh my memory on the rules for dealing with
Classical Roman names, eg Appius Claudius, Julius Caesar, P. Licinius
Crassus etc?
Many thanks.
John Silvester
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] CPD organizer
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:42:16
All the time I find myself in complete agreement with Maureen and Sue and
some others with whom I invariably agree, even whether they realise it or
not, I expect myself to remain on the straight and narrow. It seems to me
that the central issue is to admit to ourselves and everyone else that we
are not always right and be willing to bend to the advice of colleagues to
the point of chastisement. If we really can say we do not always know what
is best, however good our opinion of our own work might be, and listen to
someone who has been there before then we are entitled to call ourselves
"professional". In short, CPD is not then a process or a product but a
state of mind.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Tesco and indexing
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:41:50
I hope this job is worth more than a hill of beans ...
Subject: FW: [SIdeline] Sideline - electronic or paper
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 13:36:19
I never disagree with Laurence either save that when I go to sleep at
night, as well as having angels watching over me, I try to forget about
indexing. Aside from the quintessential excellence of the printed codex as
a cultural object, you can take it with you everywhere and it always works
in the way it is supposed to work. It never lets you down. You do not have
to switch it on. It never turns into an unintentioned order for a 1976 Ford
Capri. It does not steal your identity and it never needs to be re-booted.
Never once has it tried to sell me Viagra, a new handbag or a fake Rolex
watch nor even presented me with a proposal of marriage from an unknown
admirer resident in Romania.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] HTML indexing
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:00:25
I take the same view as Mary. Frankly, I find indexing difficult enough
already without having to keep on top of a load of technological jiggerypokery. All very well if it happens to float your boat but I'm an old dog
254
and I don't do new tricks. Indeed, I do sit up and beg but I don't do roll
over. Seems to me that any competent TS can take a word file and make it do
anything except play the national anthem so why do I need to learn how to
take the bread out of the mouth of an honest TS?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] HTML indexing
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:36:21
I was doing information technology chances are before some of you were born
to grace this Earth. My point is that I have learned enough to stick with
what I know and leave to others what I cannot comprehend nor have any
desire to be asked. The "wow" and "yeah" of the information age no longer
appeals to me. Some of you may live long enough to reach similar
conclusions. It is neither good, nor bad nor indifferent. It is simply a
question of how one feels and, as I imply, I'd consider it an achievement
to get my head around indexing. I drive a Peugeot 206 and to me that is an
accomplishment. I have neither desire nor the ability to engineer a better
car. So long as the one I've got gets me to Sainsbury and back I ask for
little more.
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:14:55
Subject: [SIdeline] Absolutely nothing to do with indexing: Grape vines
Dear All,
On the basis that there is someone out there who can be relied upon to know
anything about anything, does anyone know what to do with grape vines? I've
one I've kept for a couple of years but there are no signs of life at the
minute. I haven't cut back last year's growth. Should I? Or, should I just
leave it alone and hope for the best? I fear that the harsh winter has done
for it albeit I have given it the most sheltered spot (in a large tub two
feet above the ground protected with a wicker cone, a la National Trust, in
a sunny position).
TIA
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:59:30
Subject: [SIdeline] Absolutely nothing to do with indexing: Grape vines
Thanks to all for offlist advice. I knew you wouldn't let me down. I am now
optimistic though I do not expect to declare a vintage. On a day when it is
good to be alive you make it even better.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing software
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:27:39
I have never been one to spare Drusilla's blushes and I am also a Macrex
person bred if not born. To me it is something I am comfortable with and it
does what I want it to do. My brother-in-law, who is an engineer, says that
a tool either feels right in his hands or it doesn't and there is no more
to be said than that.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing software
255
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:28:12
Leigh, as is frequently the case, raises an interesting point. I grew up,
so as to speak, with Dbase programs and always felt that it was a bit like
driving an Austin 1100 - gear shift much as pulling a crow bar through
stone ballast - and came to think Wordperfect the best thing since hot
buttered toast. There is just no saying what floats your boat - even a
Dampervan - just so long as it doesn't sink. And, if you like you Morris
Marina with a piano on top, what of it?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing software
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:58:08
My experience is that a good TS can handle anything it - and
times they have to be good - but, as it is so easy to export
Word file and then add any other hypercritical characters as
where's the problem? Even I can do it and, trust me, that is
in these hard
an .rtf into a
required,
a robust test.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] cross references between two languages in index
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 15:20:37
An interesting question. In my experience, and particularly in respect of
international law, there seems to be a presumption that an academic
readership can cope with at least English, French and German. For example,
I once did a book by a native Italian speaker, writing in English, who
provided translations of quotations in Italian but not those in French or
German. If it is the case that the readership cannot be depended upon to
comprehend a dual text one is entitled to question why the work is being
published in this way. In any event, an indexer is entitled to expect some
editorial/authorship direction as to what is required.
PS. A senior lecturer in music in the King's College, London once directed
his class to read an article he had deposited in the university library
before their next meeting. The first person to make the attempt emerged in
tears for it was 256 pages long and in Danish. It was said that the teacher
concerned was incomprehensible not only in English but equally as fluently
incomprehensible in at least half a dozen European languages.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] cross references between two languages in index
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 15:44:05
Further To Maureen's excellent comments, I might still worry as to
precision. It has been known, for example, for their lordships' courts in
England to consider a French version of a text (being the language in which
the legislation had been made) before construing even an official English
version of same. After all, we might think we know what the French wish to
say but do we know what they mean?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] cross references between two languages in index
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 16:16:07
At the risk of becoming more boring than usual on this subject, I did do a
book once where some of the material (very little) was in French and I
indexed it only in English but that was because it seemed to me that the
publisher was just being a cheapskate in not getting the material presented
256
in one language or the other. Judgemental, no doubt. I think Marureen's
idea is the best way and seems to me to cover all reasonable eventualities
even for an Englishman with his usual bloody cold (voici L'anglais avec son
sang froid habituel - or alright, suit yourselves).
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] ICI certification
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 16:50:08
I confess to ineluctable disappointment. When it comes to being certified I
count myself as one who is wholly eligible. Perhaps there should be an SSI
- a Society of Sectioned Indexers.
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 13:02:38
Subject: [SIdeline] Bored and very off topic
Gorra tenner, at 6/5 against, that the next general election will be on 7
October 2010. Anyone up for a piece of the action?
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:32:56
Subject: [SIdeline] Human Rights
Were the United Kingdom to abrogate or derogate in any particular from the
European Convention on Human Rights I'll emigrate to Zimbabwe.
--
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] human rights
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:36:11
"Well, voting Conservative has long been one of those practices normally
denied in public but indulged in secret..."
When I meet my Maker that is perhaps one of the few sins I will not have on
my conscience.
JJ
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexing query
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:43:35
It is important to remember that alphabetical sort in software packages
must have a limit and, as I know to my cost with one which sorted only the
first ten characters, when you have some things (indeed many) which begin
"Commission of the European Communities" life becomes even harder than it
might otherwise have been.
Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:23:27
Subject: [SIdeline] Telephone: off topic and paranoid as usual
I just answered a silent call and when I did a 1471 the message was that
telephone number: 000 000 00000 had called. Anyone know what it was?
257
Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 11:51:31
Subject: [SIdeline] I never seem to write anything about indexing these
days
For those who may be interested.
This day there entered into eternal
life, Geraldine Mason Harrison: musician, teacher and scholar (and wholly
excellent person) who gave the German premiere of the Bliss Piano Concerto
and who, with precision rather than modesty, said that it was not the
definitive performance because Solomon had done that. Of another performer
she said that he ought to be ashamed of himself. She was herself the pupil
of a pupil of the favourite pupil of Clara Schumann who, some say, was the
greatest pianist who has ever lived.
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 10:03:42
Subject: [SIdeline] Almost everything
Many thanks to all for comments and support on various matters.
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:14:03
Subject: [SIdeline] Quotation Marks
The authorities seem to be emphatic that an expression in quotes in the
text should not be differentiated in the index but this bothers me. I have
a jobbie on the go where the authors use a number of expressions which lie
somewhere between a term of art and a figurative expression. Eg "iron rice
bowl", in respect of the Chinese commune system, and it strikes me as
helpful to find some way of identifying such expressions as out of the
ordinary. After all few would object to the italicization of the titles of
literary works so what is the problem with quotes? Or indeed, from a
stylistic point of view what is the most presentable?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Quotation Marks
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 15:18:19
I should be bound to say that the idea of inverting the expression, "iron
rice bowl" had never entered what remains of my mind. Although, I guess
there may be some rice about it, it isn't an iron bowl. Much like the Red
Rock cider advert it isn't red and it doesn't have rocks in it. It is a
reference to the policy of guaranteed employment and minimum social welfare
policy under the commune system.
Something is beginning to tell me I have proved my point and answered my
own question.
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:39:46
Subject: [SIdeline] I dreamt I went to Manderley
Estimable and Learned Colleagues,
I am surprised that no one has mentioned an email from a certain publishing
house located in the Half-Way House to Rome. I presume that I am not the
only one to have received it. What implications this has for rates is
unclear to me as it sturdily avoids the issue. Any views?
258
John J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] I dreamt I went to Manderley
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 12:05:03
It's no good. I've held out for as long as I can. What are these drugs that
drug checker checks and is there much money in it?
Subject: RE: [Sideline] [OT] Manderley
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 07:44:07
... Can't you hear their paddles chunkin' from Rangoon to Manderlay ... An'
the dawn comes up like thunder outer China 'crost the Bay!
... And that sweet City with her dreaming spires ...
[I cheated: Manderley/Manderlay]
I seem to have missed a posting or two - what is the connection between
Manderley and outsourcing - the Silk Road, Daphne du Maurier or what?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] law cases and judges
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 10:29:48
On the whole it is preferable NOT to index the names of the judiciary save,
perhaps, for clarity when there is a lot of stuff about the history of a
particular action having gone all the way up the tariff and it is important
to be able to understand which stage is being discussed (first instance,
appeal and so on). Or, just may be, where there is a discussion of a
dissenting opinion in an appellate court. If you really feel you must index
the name of a judge render the title as given (J, LJ, MR, CJ, etc, etc)
because what is important is their rank at the time of the decision not
where they eventually rose. A word of caution, however, is that Johnny
Foreigner sometimes gets this wrong and thinks that all judges are "J". The
language of the courts is to refer to the opinion of a particular judge
with their title at the time of the report, in the form, "Smith J, or Lord
Smith of Gloom as he later became).
-----Original Message----From: Pam Scholefield Sent: 27 May 2010 10:04
To: sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] law cases and judges
Hello All,
I am working on a book which references cases also mentioning the judges
like Cardozo J, Lord Reid. Is there anything different about the way they
are indexed? Some judges are a little more obscure than Cardozo and Reid
and I have no idea what the rest of their names are without some serious
research in some cases. Do I go back to the editor? Do I just index
under, for example--Cardozo J?
Thanks for any help, Pam
259
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] The magical index?
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 10:44:25
Like Willie Wonka I know a worse one. A relation of my late father-in-law
(sometime City Librarian of Rochester - and, a propos nothing at all,
responsible for food distribution in the Medway area in the event of
nuclear war) was pleased to tell him that being a librarian was no job for
a man [which, when you think about it, embraces a range of obnoxious
prejudices in a very short compass].
When asked about indexing, I just say that it's a tough job but someone has
to do it.
Oh, I get these all the time too. I think it's very rude to tell someone
their job must be boring. I'd never say that to an accountant, for example,
though I might think it.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] law cases and judges
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 10:49:34
... relating to the British situation ...
"English", please.
To: "'Linda Sutherland'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] The magical index?
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:20:28
I have long wondered why our sisters and brothers in computer science
eschew any attempt at reasonable English communication. I once worked in a
law firm where I was advised to, "display my attributes". Insignificant
though they are I reckon I should still have been sacked for that.
Anyways, another 45 minutes and I guess I'll participate in a structured
life support event. Quite fancy fish and chips actually.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] The magical index?
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:44:13
Not surprising that this is the country where the powers-that-be are so
thick that they are going to destroy a UNESCO world heritage site for the
sake of the Olympics.
As Sherlock Holmes quotes Goethe: "We know that men despise what they
cannot understand".
Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 17:37:55
Subject: [SIdeline] Support 1
This from a colleague. Any views?
260
"I've just had a strange call from a man who said he was from Support 1 at
Microsoft saying I had downloaded some junk files. He was urging me to do
something about it and directing me to a Microsoft website called Microsoft
One Care. At this point I said I was not happy with the call and was
ringing Off."
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Support 1
Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 09:26:43
Many thanks to colleagues who responded. My friend found the experience
highly unpleasant, because the caller was so insistent, and is very glad to
know your comments.
John J
Several friends have had this. It's a scam. The 'firm' either say that
someone will come round, or they will fix it online. All you need to do is
pay them £100 for (if you are lucky) doing nothing.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Fees: Standing up for ourselves
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:58:52
As it happens, this time last year I had an original offer of £2,000
increased to £4,500, as a result of no more polite enquiry, and an
admission of falling into error. But then they are proper gents in the Fen
country - which is more than I can say for some others who are as
inexpugnable as the exit to the alimentary tract of that dabbling avian,
the Anas platyrhynchos.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Publishers' expectations of indexing
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 11:20:07
Those colleagues with a foot in both graves, so as to speak, may take a
different view but it might be that it is just unreasonable to expect a
desk editor to have much of a grasp of indexing and what an indexer does.
In all the years I have been thus engaged, I have known only one desk
editor who had gone to the trouble of learning about indexing in order to
be a better editor. For most of them we represent no more than a subroutine which is more or less of a trouble to them. It is scarcely to be
wondered that they make demands which transcend the unrealistic and enter
the realms of the wholly impossible because of the pressures they are
themselves under. In essence, someone has told them it has to have an index
and, so far as they are concerned, so long as it has one that will do.
Examples of the things I have been invited to do include making an index
twice as long but occupying the same space; dusting off my crystal ball in
order to recognise the changes they have not told me about; indexing to
page number MSS which had no para numbers; accepting the blame for not
indexing the material I had not been sent (which represented some 50% of
the extent of a loose-leaf); and my especial favourite: "it's a new edition
but 95% of the text remains the same, so that will be really quick and
easy, won't it, even though I cannot tell you which and where are the bits
re-written/added to/deleted." I was once asked to take on the easy part of
the indexing because the author was going to do the difficult part but, in
the end, he must have found it all equally difficult. I said nothing.
Now I do not pretend to know anything about editing and I should never
dream of taking the bread from an honest editor's mouth. It's a question of
respecting another person's job and believing them when they tell you how
261
it is: however personally inconvenient this may be. If I feel that I am
being offered work on impossible terms and there is no way this person is
going to listen to anything I say, let alone understand it, I find myself
unaccountably busy ... and weed the garden instead.
To: "'CUSDEN, Amy'" <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:13:30 Cc: Sideline
<[email protected]>
Subject: [SIdeline] RE: SPM notification email from OUP
Dear Amy,
Were I to accept any future commissions from OUP I should wish to be
assured that the rates payable would be in conformity with those receivable
in the industry generally. Unfortunately, your message offers no comfort on
this point. In the past, OUP rates have been wholly unsatisfactory from the
point of view of a professional indexer with more years experience than he
really cares to remember and only a fraction of the rates recommended by
the Society of Indexers.
Yours,
John
-----Original Message----From: CUSDEN, Amy [mailto:[email protected]]
To: Undisclosed recipients:
Subject: SPM notification email from OUP
Sent: 10 June 2010 15:02
Dear Freelancer,
I have not yet received a reply to my recent email to
you (see below), and would be very grateful if you could come back to me as
a matter of priority. We have now started to send the first titles out to
our suppliers and would like to send on a full list of freelancers as soon
as possible. I have attached the FAQs document to this email, for your
information. Although we will be receiving assistance with the project
management, we want to keep the
[copyediting/indexing/tabling/proofreading/drug checking] of these books
with our current freelancers. We would like to provide your contact details
to our supplier for use as [a copyeditor/an indexer/a tabler/a
proofreader/a drug checker] for titles they will be project managing.
The
process will be: ➢
OUP Production Editor sends full material and
full brief to the Supplier with a budget and an outline for project
requirements. ➢
Supplier manages scheduling and booking a
freelancer from the contact list we provide as per usual availability. The
Supplier Project Manager will copy the booking confirmation to the OUP
Production Editor. ➢
Freelancer sends sample as well as completed
work to supplier as required in terms of brief deliverables and schedule.
➢
Freelancer sends invoice to OUP for payment. ➢
Any
questions about the outline and fee should be directed to the supplier.
The supplier will contact OUP as necessary to respond to any questions
posed by the freelancer. The freelancer has only one point of contact, the
supplier, for each job.
I am writing to ask if you would like to be included on the list of
freelance [copyeditors/indexers/tablers/proofreaders/drug checkers] that we
provide to our supplier. If you tell us that you want to be included on the
list, we will forward your contact information to the supplier, so that
he/she can get in touch with you directly when freelance opportunities are
available. We will also keep you on our contacts list for work that is
managed in-house at OUP, in addition to the work that is being assigned by
Project Management. (signature) (name-please print) (address) (telephone
number) (email address)
Please let us know whether you would like to be
262
included on our contact list for the Project Management work to by June
21st, 2010. Should you reply thereafter or change your mind at a later date
we can of course update the list the supplier is working from. I look
forward to hearing from you.
Many Thanks Amy Cusden Production
Administrator Content Operations Oxford University Press Great Clarendon
Street Oxford OX2 6DP Tel: 01865 353974 Oxford University Press Publisher & Distributor of the Year 2005, 2006, and 2007Awarded by the
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Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Art historian again
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:40:20
Excuse me. I know you all think I am extremely bolshy - as indeed I am.
Equally, it is less than obvious to me why we should be prepared to be
messed with in such fashion. We are professionals entitled to some respect
and, at the heart of this, there are mutual duties of trust, confidence and
good faith. It strikes me that some or all of these are sadly missing in
the instant proposed transaction. Accordingly, I think that it is about
time we stopped putting up with this sort of thing.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Art historian again
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 15:24:40
... everyone's unfavourite academic publisher ...: could not begin to
imagine who that might be. Sue's thought is far too subtle for me.
Such comfort as I take from this little passage of arms is that what these
people do not realise is that we do actually talk to each other. Long may
this continue. This way, perhaps, we shall not be sold down the River
Cherwell (oops!) quite so easily or so cheaply or in a state of such
indignity.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Kryptonite
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 12:55:22
Isn't krypton a "noble gas"?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Husain Ibn Mansur
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:56:08
Message-ID:
I agree with Maureen and that, by implication, the answer is contained in
263
the question. Even though Mulvany, I would respectfully suggest, is wrong
on p.172 in recommending the inversion of Saddam Hussein, on p.173 one
rarely sees much better advice than that "... there is nothing
straightforward about the indexing of Arabic names. The treatment of the
name in the text should guide the indexer."
-----Original Message----From: Maureen MacGlashan Sent: 16 June 2010 11:44
To: 'Wendy Baskett'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Husain Ibn Mansur
Take a look at Heather Hedden's Indexer Centrepiece article on Arab names
(http://tinyurl.com/indexerarabic)
But, as she implies, learned answers are no use in this situation. The
crucial question is: "Where would the user of the index look"? Presumably
your book gives a clue as to the answer to that question. (Personally I
would almost certainly be looking at Husain Ibn Mansur.)
Maureen MacGlashan
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Working from Home
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:13:56
I had begun to despair as to whether some of you would see a joke if it bit
you in your distributed relatives and see alsos. On a day when I have to
wait upon a professor of vascular surgery and a consultant vascular
radiologist (only the best for me) the thought of looking like a retarded
lighthouse keeper has cheered me up enormously. Like Mick Aston, I long ago
come to the conclusion that life is too short to be concerned as to one's
personal appearance and you'd see why on both counts in my case. A
supplementary benefit is that even gypsies who come to my door just give me
a prayer card and don't try to sell me anything. It's always been like
this. Once, in a lift in the New York Hilton, a lady of the night quickly
realised that, being English I obviously had no money and was, accordingly,
not even worth soliciting. How sad is that?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Intenet porn, was working from home [OT]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:22:34
In the interests of balance, I should point out that a colleague in the
same flea pit as me in the NYC roaring forties (neither he nor I could
afford the Hilton where the conference was coming off) was very nearly
abducted for the provision of what I believe are known as personal
services.
On a more wholesome note, I should like to say a word on the behalf of the
JW's. The one who works this patch (Louise) is almost a dead ringer for
Suzanne Virdee, the BBC West Mids news presenter, and always a welcome
sight even if she does believe things they could have trouble with in Salt
Lake City. We've got on fine ever since she realised I knew and could
construe holy writ every bit as well as she.
And, as we are all wasting the day completely, can I introduce you to a new
game? "Email Only Connect". EG:This group of four is itself the first of a sequence of four - give me a
group of four representing the latest of each of those four in the sequence
... [it adds more interest if you can do the first as well as the last].
264
Stephen of Blois James Madison Tom Baker Timothy Dalton
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 11:57:57
Subject: [SIdeline] FW: SPM notification email from OUP
Matthew 22:14
-----------------------------------------------------------Dear John,
Thank you for your clarification. We will retain your details on our
contacts database. Should you be contacted by us in the future you are
welcome to negotiate the budget with us on a job by job basis and, of
course, turn down the offer of work if the budget is not satisfactory for
you.
With best wishes,
Stacey
Stacey Penny Senior Team Leader, Law Content Operations Oxford University
Press Great Clarendon Street Oxford OX2 6DP
Tel: +44 (0)1865 354839 Fax:
+44 (0)1865 353128
OUP Summer Book Sale Choose from hundreds of titles at
up to 75% off. Offer ends 16 July 2010 www.oup.com/uk/sale/2010
P Please
consider the environment before printing this email
-----Original Message----From: john jeffries [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 10 June 2010
15:14
To: CUSDEN, Amy Cc: Sideline
Subject: RE: SPM notification email from OUP
Dear Amy,
Were I to accept any future commissions from OUP I should wish to be
assured that the rates payable would be in conformity with those receivable
in the industry generally. Unfortunately, your message offers no comfort on
this point. In the past, OUP rates have been wholly unsatisfactory from the
point of view of a professional indexer with more years experience than he
really cares to remember and only a fraction of the rates recommended by
the Society of Indexers.
Yours,
John
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] working from home
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:20:41
I can only think of proof reading. I once served time in a place where a
colleague did the most magnificent iced cake decoration and made a cake, as
a retirement present, with the subject portrayed in bed checking proofs
complete with striped pyjamas and night cap. This was a work of
imagination. I also saw a photograph of a cake she had erected for a hen
party. On that occasion, she said that she had worked from memory.
265
Often in winter, to save on heating bills, I snuggle back up in bed to work
on an index (fully dressed of course, I'm not the sort of slob who spends
all day in her pyjamas). Apparently, there aren't that many professions
where you can earn money from your bed.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] French naval vessels
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:56:55
I am pedantic and John is to be commended for the use of the preposition
"in" instead of the solecism "on". I can find no warrant in any of my books
for the use of the definite article, even by Johnny Foreigner, and I think
that John is entirely right. The only exception I can envisage is the
definite article as part of the name as it would have been painted on the
hull. I think that the CGT liner was "La France" but I might be getting
confused inasmuch as shipping case law reports invariable give the citation
in the form: X v Y (The Lovely Linda).
-----Original Message----From: John Noble Sent: 19 June 2010 10:29
To: 'Linda Sutherland'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] French naval vessels
I have not met this before, and I have indexed a few French vessels; either
that or I have blundered on and just put curly brackets around the {Le } so
that it stays in place and the entry is filed (in this case) under G. Might
it not be that the definite article is there because there is also a
definite article before British ships' names in normal speech. We speak of
`the Ark Royal', though the name is simply Ark Royal. He served in 'the
Bulwark', it would be pedantic to say 'he served in Bulwark', unless one
was listing it among a number of other ships. We always use the definite
article in speech in these cases. I'd suggest that the Frenchies do the
same. I have just made an entry for Ville de France (from the Crimean War).
I'm sure les matelots would have called it 'la' Ville de France. It may be
the upper case L that is the problem for Linda. My instinct is to ignore
it.
I have just tried to see if there is any help from internet sites,
Wikipedia is interesting - (I'd searched using 'list of French ships') it
lists French ships in alphabetical order. I checked for Redoubtable - all
ships of that name were listed under R but all names given as Le
Redoubtable. I checked to see if that pattern appeared with other ships.
It didn't. That's Wikipedia for you: all over the place. For what it's
worth, this site may be more helpful than Wikipedia:
http://www.shipscribe.com/marvap/classes.html#line
It looks like it is up to you to make your own decision, there does not
seem to be a firm rule, unless AACR has one.
John Noble
I have a text that names French ships active in 18th/19th century wars.
Sometimes the name of a vessel is given with a definite article (e.g. Le
Guillaume Tell), sometimes the same vessel is named without the article
(Guillaume Tell).
Obviously I need to co-ordinate these, but I don't know if there's a
preferred form, or if I can simply pick one and reference from the other.
Can anyone advise, please?
Linda Sutherland [email protected] http://www.tarristi.co.uk/
266
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] French naval vessels
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:16:18
"My (1978) AACR2 just says omit HMS before the name of a ship, nothing
more!"
This is a bad rule. During WWII there was an HMS Queen Elizabeth and an RMS
Queen Elizabeth at sea at the same time. It is reported that they once
passed each other in mid-Atlantic and signalled: "Snap!"
If one compares the list of the opposing fleets at Trafalgar, moreover,
there were three named "Neptune", two "Achille" and two "Swiftsure" - and
few where one can reliably guess the nationality from the name.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] French naval vessels
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:41:45
"Given that one cannot expect anglophone readers to be familiar with or
understand the abbreviations used in foreign navies for their warships (I
don't), various descriptives become necessary: (French submarine), (French
warship)."
Excellent advice and obviously useful. All I would add is that there might
be something to be said - in a very technical work - for the use of NATO
descriptives in respect of the modern era.
Eg: SSB (ship submersible ballistic) plus unique pennant number. [If you
look closely at film of American naval personnel in those stupid baseball
caps that is what will be emblazoned across the front. So, CVAN-65 =
nuclear powered attack aircraft carrier, USS Enterprise].
PS: What is interesting is that it is considered bad luck to change the
name of a ship and that, unlike in modern democratic war where the
objective is to destroy as much of one's enemy's materiél and kill and maim
as many as possible of their people, in former years they tried to capture
ships intact and impress the crews into their own service. Names were
preserved and sometimes became traditional. Hence, the fighting Téméraire.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] name indexes
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:09:20
It is or was a feature of sociology books, particular American readers, to
have a simple index list of writers as well as a subject index. May be just
a sly marketing ploy. All second rate professors in third rate US liberal
arts colleges would buy a book where they are in the same list as Weber and
Durkheim. Cynical: moi?
PS
On this day of all days Margaret asks me to remind you of Luke 2:1
-----Original Message----From: John Silvester Sent: 22 June 2010 10:10
To: Sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] name indexes
267
The collective wisdom might be able to assist on a small point. Where one
has been asked to provide separate name and subject indexes in a fairly
lengthy sociology text, should one break down the strings and dispose of
the extensive page ranges in the name index? It seems to me that the name
index, full of sub-headings, then takes on the look of a further subject
index?
John Silvester
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Bible references
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 15:25:30
The Established Church prefers the anglicised New Standard Revised Version
but US publishers may not. The True Faith, however, runs with the New
Jerusalem version.
-----Original Message----From: Nick Fawcett Sent: 22 June 2010 15:02
To: Sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] Bible references
Other useful sites for checking Bible references, and cutting and pasting
if necessary, are: http://www.devotions.net/bible/00new.htm and
http://www.devotions.net/bible/00old.htm, both of which give the NRSV text,
preferred by most publishers, and Strong's Concordance, at
http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html.
Best wishes
Nick
Subject: RE: [Sideline] Bible references
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 11:43:31
Mathew 15:11
-----Original Message----From: Jane Henley Sent: 23 June 2010 10:58
To: sideline
Subject: [Sideline] Bible references
Small world. I've just been to the dentist. On the back of my appointment
card, in small letters, I notice it says "Psalm 81 v10".
To save you the trouble, it's "Open wide your mouth and I will fill it".
Cheers, Malcolm Henley
[email protected]
To: "'Margaret Christie'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Bible references
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:28:12
"'Sideline'"
But it wouldn't do to ask for a sign. As my daughter always reminds me when
268
we are out and about an utterly lost:
Matthew 12:39
And actually I did the reverse in order to play the game.
that hath shall it be given" and was given a reference ;-)
I typed "To him
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Working in the shed (OT - and then some)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 15:56:06
I've got rid of the cobwebs in my garage and if I only had the wasps and
hornets left to worry about [at this festival of Petertide, I will award a
St Peter's tea towel to the first who Swiftly gets the literary and legal
allusion] I'd be well pleased. As it is, the roof beams are rotten and the
estimate is a thousand squids.
To: "'Sally Roots'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Working in the shed (OT - and then some)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 16:08:08
Sally has the first correct entry and, if she gives me her address, will
receive the tea towel.
"Laws are like cobwebs, which may catch small flies, but let wasps and
hornets break through" - Jonathan Swift
Sally
john jeffries wrote: > I've got rid of the cobwebs in my garage and if I
only had the wasps and > hornets left to worry about [at this festival of
Petertide, I will award > a St Peter's tea towel to the first who Swiftly
gets the literary and > legal allusion] I'd be well pleased. As it is, the
roof beams are rotten > and the estimate is a thousand squids. > >
-Sally Roots Freelance Indexer Farnham, UK (01428) 712625 / (07808) 778349
Date: Tue, 6 July 2010 14:32:49
Subject: [SIdeline] Place names
Can someone please point me in the direction of a rule about place names in
variant forms (usually because the state in question has more than one
official language)? All I can find is the usual cop-out of following the
author's usage. It only really becomes a problem when the author(s) is/are
inconsistent - which is what I've got now. Bern(e) in Switzerland is
rendered both as Bern and Berne. For what it is worth, the Times Atlas
prefers Bern with a reference from Berne but on what authority I could not
say. Perhaps I ought to consult Wikipedia which will no doubt tell me that
it should be properly spelt "Burn" and is a vernacular name for a stream in
Scotland.
TIA
269
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Place names
Date: Wed, 7 July 2010 06:24:29
Many thanks for advice.
Date: Wed, 14 July 2010 12:02:03
Subject: [SIdeline] Polar bears [deranged more than OT]
Just to take your minds off fees ...
I have just created an index entry
Agreements, polar bears
Somehow I cannot now escape the image of a group of polar bears sitting in
a circle on the Arctic ice solemnly debating the walrus question.
Perhaps I should get out more.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Thomas a Kempis
Date: Thu, 15 July 2010 15:00:50
This seems to be like another one where indexers cannot do right for doing
wrong. I got blasted by an author for preferring Aquinas to Thomas (having
been led into error by following the style of her bibliography) and also,
being more than somewhat Jewish, she did not like to hear of anyone
described as a saint anyway. In the usually reliable Cambridge Biographical
I find "Becket, St Thomas a" though according to Stephen Fry on QI there is
no reliable warrant for the "a" at all. Just to add to the confusion
Leornado da Vinci and never "Vinci" but the whole world says "Palestrina"
not Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina. Does yer head in: know whar I mean,
bloods?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Thomas a Kempis
Date: Thu, 15 July 2010 16:08:02
Ok Christine. You have lost me there .... [my point was that I had followed
the author but, my crystal ball having temporarily gone on the blink, I now
realise that I should have done what she had intended should have been done
instead of what she did].
Aquinas? (After writing this, I saw that John Jeffries had also come up
with Aquinas.) Er, Chrysostom? More (Thomas More, that is)?
j
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Printers [OT - much as usual]
Date: Fri, 23 July 2010 13:42:00
I am reminded of a notice which appeared above the photocopier in a place
in which I once had the misfortune to suffer:
Yes, it is broken. No, we cannot fix it. Yes, we have called the engineer.
No, we do not know when the engineer will get here. Yes, we are going to
keep it.
270
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: Printers [now telephones]
Date: Fri, 23 July 2010 15:58:50
Two possible explanations based on my experience with an ex-directory line:
(1) Sales call systems with numbers dialled sequentially until they get
you.
(2) Error. Come Diwali, the Beauchamp College automated truancy system will
ring to tell the Begum Patel that her son has bunked off school again. But
by far and the way the best, was a woman who called asking for
"Redemption." She thought I was a building society. My wits being more than
usually sluggish at the time, I failed to say that I was not even in a
position to offer absolution.
But you'll like this one. A little bit but not a lot. In the days of dialup Internet access a government department disconnected a dedicated line
... because it received no incoming calls. Think about it.
-----Original Message----From: Kathy Lahav Sent: 23 July 2010 15:11
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] RE: Printers
I have an All-In-One Epson SX600FW - it works fine apart from having to get
a new every 2/3 years. Then I had I had to buy a new router, these things
don't last forever.. I don't generally print proofs out. The issue I've got
is this printer has a dedicated fax line set up by BT for use with one
particular contact in the USA. Nobody else has the number, which is now exdirectory - but someone keeps trying to ring it....anyone any ideas (guess
who I blame)... By the way, the broadband isn't BT and its a different
telephone number.
Kathy Lahav
To: "'Cath Topliff'" <[email protected]>,
"'sideline'"
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] bank accounts for the self-employed
Date: Tue, 27 July 2010 12:14:46
I think that this is called, "wanting to make more money out of you."
J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] cold callers interrupting work
Date: Wed, 28 July 2010 09:11:02
It is worth remembering that whereas someone delivering mail/parcels has an
implied licence to walk onto your property there is no general right and if
you ask someone to leave they must. What I chiefly resent, however, is when
these cold callers (usually cowboy workmen attempting to convince me that
unless I pay them £200 [or, would I loik a free estimate, Sore] to
undertake some essential work on my house, civilisation as we presently
know it will come to an end and I will get warts) dissatisfied with my
reaction time in getting to the front door, decide to march into the back
garden. Now that really annoys me.
271
The problem with signs prohibiting cold calling is the psychology. There is
empirical evidence that it is only those who would not have committed the
offence in the first place who take any notice of a sign.
J
PS. Was there ever really a sign which said, "Please do not throw stones at
this sign"?
Date: Wed, 28 July 2010 09:59:15
Subject: [SIdeline] Email traffic
I may not be alone in having experienced difficulties with email this week.
I posted a message to Sideline at 0911 this morning which is yet to bounce
back. Is there anybody out there?
Date: Wed, 28 July 2010 12:38:36
Subject: [SIdeline] Email
Further to my previous, and hoping that I am not merely communicating with
the ether, Virgin Media tell me that there is a national problem with ntl.
The service status automaton, however, says there are no issues. The
problem seems to concern incoming rather than outgoing messages.
Date: Thu, 29 July 2010 09:02:27
Subject: [SIdeline] Email
Many thanks for responses and comments. The worse part about this is how
dependent one is on this working and indeed technology in general. Not long
ago there was a 12 hour power outage in these parts and it became worse
than living in a third world country because at least in the third world
there are likely to be stall holders at the side of the road selling
vegetables. In Oadby, commerce ceased altogether.
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: FW: [SIdeline] RE: Japanese Philosopher
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 16:00:53
No 3: [as they used to say in the Navy] You shouldn't have joined if you
can't take a joke.
PS A job booked for May/June and then August (upwards of 500 pages of black
letter law) I am now told is to be mailed out on 2 Sept and it has to be
done by 10 Sept ... at the latest. In their dreams. I am going on a coach
holiday that week.
Murphy's Laws of Indexing
No 1: If there are two logical ways of ordering a term, the reader will go
for the one the indexer does not.
No 2: The author will prefer variant no 3.
Any more?
272
Jackie Speel
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] CUP XML [general moan - was duplicate entries ]
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:07:53
I'm a great steam enthusiast myself.
I go with folio plus line number. Thus, 119.15 would be line 15 on folio
119 which makes checking and changing a lot easier. It does, strike me,
however, that it must inevitably happen at some stage that the actual
expression tagged may be subsequently altered or deleted and what happens
then? I console myself that this is not my problem. Also, isn't it
irritating that the grid provided doesn't necessarily coincide with the
line spacing?
They also seem to be gratuitously subservient to the whims of the great
one, the author, whether the idea is thoroughly stupid or not. And what
coach and horses riven through it that leads to doesn't bear thinking
about. Again, I consign this to the category of things for which life is
too short. Nah, whatever.
-----Original Message----From: June Morrison Sent: 11 August 2010 09:35
To: sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] CUP XML duplicate entries
Re "duplicate entries on the same line".
I assume that would be "several entries on the same line". My understanding
is that one tag/number will serve them all - is there therefore any need
for a/b/c etc? And in CUP's method, "b" has the meaning "begin" (A pity a
"b" is confusable with a "6", so I space mine to the right.) (I think I
must be on the steam version of embedded indexing!) Kind regards June
To: "'Marian Anderson'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Author's list for index
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 13:38:26
I have found it quite helpful to say that I have attempted to "follow the
spirit of the author's observations" and then do what I think best.
Experience suggests to me that they know little about it, generally could
not care less but sometimes feel placed under an obligation to contribute.
Chances are they are only too relived not to have to do the index
themselves. For the small minority who have issues about it, what ever you
did you'd never please them anyway so, why worry? If it sounds to you like
a complete load of something I must not say on Sunday, it probably is.
HTH
-----Original Message----From: Marian Anderson Sent: 15 August 2010 13:21
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Author's list for index
In the hope that someone else may be working on Sunday, I would be grateful
273
to be guided on this by folk who may have been in the same position of
being asked to ensure that a list of entries submitted by author go into
the index. Some are what I think of as 'nonsense' entries (big picture,
kick-off) others are more or less impossible without changing tense etc (ignore,
impatient, lose face, personal, polite, private). I am now stuck on
'assume' - (at least they've sent me the pdfs or I'd really go mad) - my
instinct is to 'see assumption' (which also appears in book and in
glossary) Or even 'see assuming *and* assumption'. I foresee other verbs
popping up later. I can see that the authors think they are being helpful
as this book is targeted at international readers, but I really do jib at
entering 'assume' with a list of page numbers. I might as well be writing a
short dictionary. What would others do? This particular word crops up 12
times in the context of 'x should not assume that' and so on, in a book of
about 150+ pp.
I would be most grateful for help with this one, offline if it is not felt
to be of general interest? Marian Anderson [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Authors' lists
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:22:40
Joshua 23:14
... Or was it a Joan Baez number?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] I know where I'm going
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:56:27
I have woken up feeling a bit Psalm 22:14 but I admit it: I am really
strange. My daughter tells me so on an almost daily basis. She deals with
ministerial correspondence and knows something of basket cases.
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:06:36
Subject: [SIdeline] I know where I'm goin': a palinode
What on earth possessed me to think it was Joan Baez I do not know. I have
just realised that the most famous recording is by the late great Kathleen
Ferrier on the "Blow the wind southerly" CD. The sleeve note is a laconic
"Traditional, arr. Hughes & adpt, Gray". Ferrier invariably ended her solo
recitals with such a song. Herbert Hughes (1882-1937) founded the Irish
Folk Song Society.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Off topic discussions
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:11:12
It is in the nature of most conversations that they wander this way and
that and are often the more interesting because of it. Perhaps we need an
addition to the etiquette for matters which are just for a bit of fun. I'm
doing international relations at the moment, which is a sad old business at
the best of times, and a little comic relief makes the day run that bit
more smoothly. So, what about [AL] in the subject line for matters which
are a laugh, which anyone who is happy enough already can delete without
reading, reserving [OT] for matters serious enough in their way but
tangential. I mean it. I am not being impertinent. Days can be long and
274
lonely and an element of cheer, for some, may even speed the plough.
Dear All,
May I please remind everyone of the following sentence in the SIdeline
etiquette:
'If your message is off-topic, please insert [OT] at the beginning of your
Subject line. This identifier will allow people who filter incoming
messages to identify quickly which messages are important and which can be
read at leisure.'
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:19:49
Subject: [SIdeline] International Agreements
Can someone point me in the direction of some learning on how to deal with
international agreements? I recently did an unnecessarily long book which
was just about the provisions of agreements. I came to the conclusion that
the plainest and most concise way of dealing with them was to give them
their full handle as a main heading and a shortened form elsewhere as subheads together with rather a lot of see refs. This one was admittedly a
very extreme case.
Now I am back to the usual scenario of a smattering of agreements some of
which are worth indexing (with sub-heads) and the passing mentions will be
swept up by the tabler. But if, for example, I use <Genocide Convention> as
a preferred heading, albeit common sense, the tabler will almost certainly
go <Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide>
for exactitude. S&M used to rule that every significant component of such
an expression should be indexed which would seem to me to make the index
hopelessly unwieldy. Even using see refs from a full form to a short form
seems to me to use up a lot of space for doubtful value.
TIA
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:36:48
Subject: [SIdeline] On being paid - or not as the case may be
I want to go on my hols and am becoming restive about the four long ones I
am owed - if not distinctly irritable. The one job which did sparkle up
with the spondulicks this month was from a South African university.
Notwithstanding that I asked for remittance in sterling, Lloyds TSB still
imposed a four squids handling charge and what it was they handled I am
less than clear. Still, at least I got something - which is more than can
be said for a Canadian jobbie I did in May. Anybody had any luck asking for
money up front for foreign commissions? At least within the jurisdiction
there is some hope of recovery. Seems to me that, if you are waiting for
Johnny Foreigner to stump up, it's a good idea not to hold your breath.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] On being paid - or not as the case may be
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:43:46
All I can think of is that Lloyds TSB docked me four notes for sending me a
letter saying they had done so, taking the place of a remittance advice.
Having registered for telephone banking, I find it very quick and easy to
keep track of my balance, be told the recent account activity, etc, etc
275
without rising from a warm seat with a piece of paper in my hand. What it
does not do is improve my chances of getting my hands on the wonga.
I do think I raise a serious issue because, as times get harder, slow payer
will just sit down above the waters of Babylon and makes us weep.
Call me old-fashioned but I just do not trust the security of Internet
banking. I seem to recall that a major scam was uncovered only this week.
No doubt the day will come when banks decline to issue bank statements by
post. The ecological borough of Oadby & Wigston only wants electoral
registration by phone or Internet now.
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:41:10
Subject: [SIdeline] Email traffic (disappearing messages)
I have had several instances of intended recipients saying they have not
received some of my messages. These may or may not be days where there have
been national problems. There was a bad patch a week or so back but I am
beginning to wonder whether there is a systematic problem. I don't mean
that condition where it seems as though the cyber-donkey has gone lame
again and takes a long time to deliver a message but messages just
evaporating into the ether even though they are there in my sent items
folder just as they should be.
Any ideas?
-To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Telephone scams
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:46:01
I think that the real problem is that we are all much too civilised, highly
socialised, well-spoken, reasonable and polite ... and that is what these
people trade on. Perhaps the way forward is to stop being like that. If we
all of us, every time, answered with just two words the second being "off"
and the first according to individual preference, this nuisance might well
soon cease. If you cannot bring yourself to do this, just lay the receiver
down and waste some of their time for them.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Telephone scams [progressively OT]
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:29:06
"On a slightly different tack, I'm told that the prepaid envelopes which
come with the equally irritating junk mail should always be posted.
Apparently the nuisance companies are charged for them."
Hey, that's good. Does it follow that if one were to fill the envelope with
extra weight they would be charged the excess too?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Three cheers for authors (some of them)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 10:03:28
Never mind praising up an
me as though you are just
recognition that an index
extension of the author's
author who eventually sees sense, Meg: sounds to
good at what you do. I also take comfort from the
is not an arcane publishing convention - or an
idiosyncrasy - but a machine which makes a book
276
useful and usable. Now, how is it that this continually fails to grab
people as, what Basil Fawlty called, a glimpse of the bleeding obvious?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: filing help please
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:52:17
This is only a matter of clarity. I'd be inclined to go SS Great Britain
but file under G to distinguish it from anything else which might be called
Great Britain. One makes assumptions at one's peril. It wasn't until Bill
told me he had climbed it, that I realised that Foinaven - and for that
matter nearby Arkle - are Scottish mountains. I thought that were race
horses - but then I had twenty squids on New Approach at 11/2 to win a
couple of years ago and he flew like the wind.
-----Original Message----From: Martin A Bates Sent: 24 September 2010 18:18
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: filing help please
However, I have now come across an alphabetical list of some tourist sites
where he has put it under "s" presumably because most lay people refer to
it as the ss Great Britain. Should that influence where I put it in the
index if that is where people will look for it?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] An Bord Snip/An Bord Snip Nua - Irish terms
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 11:54:45
I think that we have discussed the word "An" in the Irish language before.
According to Mulvany, "Chicago recommends that articles in foreign-language
titles be retained in the index and handled in the same manner as English
titles" with the baleful caveat that "faulty inversion will confuse or
irritate the user and embarrass the publisher". So, I am not quite sure
where that leaves us. With a jocular expression, it might be best to stick
with its most common form and it sounds as though that is, "An Bord Snip".
-----Original Message----From: [email protected] Sent: 26 September 2010 11:20
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] An Bord Snip/An Bord Snip Nua - Irish terms
Hi
Could anyone confirm to me the correct filing for these terms? The author
refers to Bord Snip with and without the An and Wikipedia says 'An Bord
Snip was a colloquial, comic term for the Expenditure Review Committee. It
is a mix of Irish and English words, literally meaning "the snip board". so
I'm inclined to think I can put it as Bord Snip.
Many thanks in advance.
Wendy
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: PDF searches - numb brain
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 13:02:45
277
Whilst on the subject of such oddities, can anyone riddle me this? In my
current document I searched for "specific performance" and then "specific"
and got nil returns. This was odd because the expression appeared on the
printed page in front of me. I then searched for "c performance" and
obtained 13 hits. In the search results box it comes up as "specifi c
performance" Que?
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: PDF searches - numb brain
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:22:06
Thank you. This is important to know. Indeed it is a bit of a bombshell. In
the immortal words of H*y*m*a*n K*a*p*l*a*n, however, "It's a fine
haxplination, Titcher", but how the ffi-ing hell is one supposed to be able
to guess when this has arisen? The garbage at the front says this book has
been set in The Sans but it just looks like words made up of bog-standard
letters to me. I can hack the idea of obtaining no results because I cannot
spell, it's when there are no results for having used the correct spelling
that I have issues. Isn't it?
-----Original Message----From: Gerard M-F Hill [mailto:[email protected]]
2010 13:34
To: 'john jeffries'
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: PDF searches - numb brain
Sent: 09 October
John Jeffries asked about: "specifi c performance" Que? I can answer this
one. The fi has been typeset as a single ligatured character, which isn't
on a standard keyboard, so we can't type it in to the search box. If you're
searching in a PDF file for a word containing a ligatured character (fi,
ffi, fl, ae and oe are the commonest), you need to omit that part of the
word, as John cunningly did. Gerard Gerard M-F Hill Much Better Text in
breezy Cumberland +44 (0)16977 46370 www.much-better-text.com
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Paper gone in 5 years? [now OT - even by my own
lamentable standards]
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 13:25:46
What do we want?
Prevarication!
When do we want it?
Next week!
I am also reminded that, according to the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy,
the Marketing Department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation will be
first against the wall when the Revolution comes; and that, according to
the Encyclopaedia Galactica, the Marketing Department of the Sirius
Cybernetics Corporation was first against the wall when the Revolution
came.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Paper gone in 5 years? [now OT]
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:31:56
278
Or even preteriteness.
When do we want it?
Last week!
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] JUNK CALLlS - was Dictionary of International Biog.
(36th edition for 2011)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 08:20:17
Now that very few people telephone with offers of work I leave my phones
permanently on answer. Earlier in the week the same number called one of my
lines eight times without leaving a message and, when I did a ring back, a
recorded message said that "Hunters" had called and would try again. I have
no idea who they are and they haven't bothered me since. Seems to me that
the TPS is widely disregarded.
My neighbours have phones which display the identity of the caller and I
still find it disconcerting when they pick up and say "Hello, John". Their
experience is that it is a big time-saver being able to disregard the
nuisance calls.
Round here the purported insulation "surveyors" seem to have given up on
telephone calls and knock on the door instead. It's a choice of nuisances.
-----Original Message----From: John Sampson Sent: 01 November 2010 16:46
To: Sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] Dictionary of International Biog. (36th edition
for2011)
Not only this, but also a second attempt to sell me insurance on recentlyinstalled windows, and yet another phone call about government grants for
loft insulation. I am tempted to install a Truecall device (junk phone call
screening) as being listed with the TPS seems to have little effect. I
think someone asked about experience with this device before, but as there
was no response I assume no-one uses it.
Regards
_John Sampson_
On 01/11/2010 16:18, Christine Shuttleworth wrote: > I've had one, and have
binned it. > > Christine
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 12:18:35
Subject: [SIdeline] PDFs Again
Colleagues have tried patiently to explain to me about these ligature
things and I still don't really understand why to retrieve "floating" I
need to tap "fl oating" but "floating" will retrieve "FLOATING". Be that as
it may, also I do not understand why "preference shares" is undiscoverable
if there is a page break separating the two words. I am finding this as
hard to understand as Mr Jellyby found his affairs.
279
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] PDFs Again
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:51:48
Thanks to colleagues for further patient attempts to pour some useful
information into my enfeebled brain.
Nothing whatsoever to do with indexing, but those with an interest in
religious art might like to look up the story about the seven-year
restoration of the Giotto Crucifix at Ogni Sancti in Florence, much of the
work having been done by a young Englishwoman. This, I call a project:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11696412
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Giotto crucifix
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 02:02:35
But, as a result of all these things, I have discovered that at least one
of the good company we keep *IS* an artist. And, for the continuity of the
artistic tradition, perhaps it would not be unreasonable to suppose that
Giotto di Bondone rests in peace.
-----Original Message----From: [email protected] Sent: 06 November 2010 17:12
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Re: Giotto crucifix
Hi,
And I wonder how many of the rest of us also have a masters work of
art
stuffed in the back of a cupboard getting dirty and dusty for a few hundred
years.
Regards,
Hazel Young
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:29:06
Subject: [SIdeline] FW: Warnings of rogue 'anti-virus' software
I forward the following in case any find it of interest.
-----Original Message----From: Roy Rudham [mailto:[email protected]]
November 2010 14:21
Warnings of rogue 'anti-virus' software
Sent: 15
Organised criminal gangs are exploiting security-conscious internet users
by tricking them into downloading and paying for anti-virus protection
which is actually malicious software.
Targeting victims
The gangs target victims through direct telephone calls. Victims are left
out-of-pocket, their bank details stolen and their computers seriously
compromised.
Launching this year's Get Safe Online Week, the Minister of
State for Security Baroness Neville-Jones expressed her concerns. She
pointed out that 80 per cent of internet users had never heard of these
scams. Yet 1 in 4 online users have already been approached by someone
claiming to be from an IT helpdesk.
She said "While it's encouraging to see that web users are today more
security-aware, criminals are often one step ahead and will use
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increasingly sophisticated methods to take advantage where they can.
However, equipped with the right information, there's no need for anyone to
be deterred from going online or from protecting their computers with the
right security software.
"We have one ask during Get Safe Online Week for everyone to take just five
minutes to visit Get Safe Online and make sure they know how to spot the
tell-tale signs."
Get Safe Online Week
Get Safe Online encourages web users to learn more about internet safety
and to make sure that their computers are properly protected.
There are
some very simple steps that people can take. These include protecting PCs
by keeping anti-virus and anti-spyware software up to date by making
regular back-ups of files containing sensitive or personal information and
by securing wireless networks. Most importantly, web users should protect
their financial and personal details whilst online.
Get Safe Online is a joint initiative between the government, the Serious
Organised Crime Agency and private sector sponsors from the worlds of
technology, retail and finance.
Get Safe Online Week runs from Monday 15 to Friday 19 November.
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 04:57:28
Subject: [SIdeline] Medical terminology
I have taken on a job I ought to have declined because it is much more
medical than advertised. Is there such a thing as a very basic guide to
medical terminology as there are for, say, law? The problems I am
encountering are as much cultural as anything else: authors of different
nationalities describing (apparently) the same thing in different ways.
TIA
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Medical terminology
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 10:05:20
Thanks to colleagues for much helpful advice. As I said in a reply to a
colleague offlist, I am not one to take the bread out of the mouths of
honest medical indexers. This title was sold to me as a work of
sociology/ethics: it's just that it had a lot of medical terminology. There
were 21 contributors of many different nationalities with different usages
of the language such that one could never be really sure that one was
dealing with the same rose smelling as sweet. I think that another problem
is also underscored: in an age of apparent increasing specialisation there
is also increasing eclecticism, the instant job probably having only
marginal interest save to a limited range of medical practitioners but of
wider theoretical concern because of the way what might appear to be
discrete subject areas are actually interlinked.
Anyways, I started at 4.00am and have finished it.
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:52:38
Subject: [SIdeline] Arabic names: spelling inconsistencies
I don't know whether this has been remarked upon before but I came across
these responses of T.E. Lawrence to editorial queries:
281
Q: Jeddah and Jidda used impartially throughout. Intentional? A: Rather!
Q: Bir Waheida, was Bir Waheidi. A: Why not? All one place.
Q: ... Ruwalla ... Rualla ... Rueli. A: Should have also used Ruwala and
Ruala.
Q: The Bisaita is also spelt Biseita. A: Good.
Q: Jedha, the she-camel, was Jedhah. A: She was a splendid beast.
Q: ... Mayin ...Main ... Mayein ... Muein ... Mayin ... Muyein. A: Good
egg. I call this really ingenious.
Lawrence writes: "There are some "scientific systems" of transliteration,
helpful to people who know enough Arabic not to need helping, but a washout for the world. I spell my names anyhow, to show what rot the systems
are."
282
2011
To: "'Joan Dearnley'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Index entries for 'ladies'
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:17:45
If one were to be truly pedantic it would be:
Lady Peter Wimsey (wife of a Lord as a courtesy title); Lady Mary Wimsey
(female sibling of an heir apparent/successor). Should Inspector Parker
have achieved the knighthood he assuredly deserved, Lady Mary would then
have become Lady Mary Parker.
It's all lots of fun but Joan's preferred approach suffers from the
disadvantage of being sensible.
-----Original Message----From: Joan Dearnley Sent: 14 February 2011 13:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Index entries for 'ladies'
Hello,
Can anyone offer guidance on the correct form of entry for ladies who have
gained their titles through their husbands, not by birth? I have indexed
the sixteenth-century Lady Elizabeth Audley as 'Audley, Lady Elizabeth'.
The author has queried this, suggesting 'Audley, Elizabeth, Lady'. The
editor prefers 'Audley, Lady, Elizabeth'
Which is 'correct' - or should the entry be under first name, i.e.
Elizabeth, Lady Audley?
Joan Dearnley
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Can legal cases be authors?
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:32:42
The best starting point is always to avoid indexing cases and legislation
altogether unless there is a very good reason for including them: and it
would need to be a good one. If the book warrants it, cases and legislation
would be dealt with in separate tables. Were R v. Poderis to be a major
point of discussion, rather than supportive end-note style material,
"Poderis [italics] case [upright]" as a subject entry would be good.
I'm working on a text that requires a separate author index and subject
index. For the author index, I have to take all the authors from the
references at the end of each chapter. In one chapter in which legal cases
figure quite a lot, there are references to legal cases, e.g. R v Poderis
(2007) Chester Crown Court from which there is a quote given in the main
text. There are also reference to Statutory Instruments such as
SI 2010/781. Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated Activities)
Regulations 2010.
My question is, can cases or SIs be regarded as authors? And if so, which
283
bit would be regarded as the author - the case name or the Court? And the
SI no. or the title of the SI?
I'd be grateful if anybody could help.
Regards,
Linda
Linda Haylock BA, MSc Accredited Indexer
To: "'John Sampson'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Can legal cases be authors?
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:36:13
A little harsh. There is "indexing legal materials", Moys et al, 1993
amongst other writings in the journal.
Without knowing more about the instant work it is hard to comment. A work,
for a lay reader, which refers endlessly to primary legal materials sounds
about as useful as a first aid handbook which refers solely to scientific
papers on wound management. Less useful in fact because the use of legal
materials is essentially frenetic. By the end of a day's trading, a law
library looks as though a bomb has hit it not because lawyers are
necessarily less tidy or organised than anyone else but because the
research process is one of constant cross-referral. It's not that it is
beyond one's wits to grasp - but one does first need to understand the
structure of the literature in order to use it. Whether one arrives at the
right answer is another matter altogether. This is why judges get paid a
lot.
I wish.
I am indexing a book on laws right now, but not addressed to lawyers.
It is a nightmare - legislation is a tangled web, especially for those of
us who live under more than one system of law, as we do in the EU. And
having separate tables makes the approach different from that of
conventional indexing.
The law affects all of life so I think all indexers will have to cope with
laws and cases at some time or other. We are approaching a state of affairs
where everything that is not forbidden by law is compulsory.
Regards
_John Sampson_
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Pakistani names
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 17:06:28
I recall a previous discussion on this point and I am afraid that the
conclusion I reached was whether there was the name Khan and something else
it was best to file under the something else. It also seemed to me that
biographical dictionaries were inconsistent and possibly wrongly-decided.
Now I think that there is no reliably consistent practice because of
culture clash. For example, Imran Khan is definitely Imran but Jemina Khan
284
is presumably Ms Khan. Sorry if I haven't got the spelling right: too idle
to check.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: Pakistani Names
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 08:48:36
Stitching with two threads: an indexer' place is in the red and in the
wrong ... or, may be it's because I am a dad.
-----Original Message----From: Kathy Lahav Sent: 09 April 2011 20:53
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] RE: Pakistani Names
Given that Jemina Khan and her husband have been separated for several
years, am not not sure where that puts indexers!!
Kathy Lahav
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:39:03
Subject: [SIdeline] FW: Police issue warning about bogus computer repair
companies
The following from Neighbourhood Watch, which addresses issues raised in a
previous thread, forwarded with the Moderator's kind permission.
Police issue warning about bogus computer repair companies
Leicestershire Constabulary has issued a warning about bogus companies
offering to repair computers infected with viruses.
Police have received reports from members of the public who have been
contacted via telephone by people claiming they work on behalf of
Microsoft.
The caller claims that they have received information via the customer's
internet service provider that they have serious virus problems with their
computer.
The customer is asked to log on to their computer and download a program
that hands over remote control of the computer so the problem can be fixed.
The customer is then asked to pay a subscription fee to prevent it
happening again.
Following enquiries made it has been established that the computers never
had anything wrong with it and the customers have given a stranger access
to their computer and any information they store on it.
Sergeant John Weston is investigating some of the reports, he said: "The
callers sound very plausible and in most cases they are aware of the
victim's name and address.
"They claim to be from Microsoft and speak in an accent, possibly Asian. We
would advise anyone contacted in similar circumstances to never give out
their bank details and never allow the caller access to their computer.
285
"If possible take the caller's contact details and tell them that you will
call them back once you have checked their identity. We have been informed
that Microsoft doesn't make unsolicited telephone calls to fix computers.
"People also need to be aware that once the caller has gained access to the
computer within days the system stops working, we would advise anyone who
believes they may have been the victim of a similar scam to seek advice
from a reputable IT company."
Anyone with any information about the incidents is asked to contact
Leicestershire Constabulary on (0116) 222 2222 or Crimestoppers, which is
free* and anonymous, on 0800 555 111.
* Please note, some mobile 'phone service providers may charge for this
call.
Issued on 12/04/11 at 09:31
-Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Missionaries
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:30:03
Sorry to make this worse but biographical dictionaries have him as
Damien, Father Joseph originally Joseph de Wester
Presumably be took the name Fr Damien on entering orders.
-----Original Message----From: C.C. Diepeveen Sent: 14 April 2011 08:43
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Missionaries
Dear all,
I would be interested to hear opinions of SIdeliners on how to index the
Flemish Catholic missionary Father Damien. He appears in a book I am
currently indexing on Protestant missionary work, as a missionary working
among leprosy sufferers. The book uses firmly Protestant terminology, e.g.
Paul is Paul (Apostle) not St Paul. Father Damien is the only Catholic
missionary who figures prominently in this book. I have the following index
entries for him:
Damien de Veuster (Father Damien, Flemish Catholic missionary) Father
Damien see Damien de Veuster
Father Damien's surname is mentioned once, but I don't think many people
know him by his surname, nor do I think that anyone would look him up by
his surname. I am not an expert on Catholicism, however, and I am somewhat
doubtful about how best to index him.
Caroline -- Caroline Diepeveen MSocInd(Adv) Freelance indexer Middelburg
(Netherlands) email: [email protected] website: www.cdiep-indexing.com
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Missionaries
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:27:11
Well, this is a can of worms, isn't it? I did once have a problem with an
orthodox Jewish author who would have no truck with saints being described
as such at all. Now I find consecutive entries:
286
Teresa of Avila, St
Teresa (of Calcutta), Mother [as she then was and before that, of course,
she had a birth name]
Might the time be right for some further and better guidance in the pages
of the journal as to the modern treatment of religious names?
-----Original Message----From: Roger Steer Sent: 14 April 2011 11:02
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Missionaries
As a non-indexer, this is as much a question as a thought.
for:
I would look
Claus, Santa - No
Christmas, Father? - No
Teresa, Mother? - Yes/No
Teresa, Saint - (Same person) Yes
It makes sense to me, but I can't explain why.
Roger -- Roger Steer --
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Missionaries
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:14:44
Great men may jest with saints; 'tis wit in them ... but this may be
testing their patience
-----Original Message----From: william jack Sent: 14 April 2011 11:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Missionaries
Sue asked if we are taking a position on missionaries ... I think we'd be
bonkers if we did (sorry)
Bill Jack
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] A new insult?
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:31:08
You might have replied: "Possibly: but then I am not a BT engineer".
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Rumination ...
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:05:55
As Quark the Ferengi bar-tender in Deep Space Nine quotes the rules of
acquisition: "Good customers are rarer than gold-pressed latinum: cherish
them."
287
John J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] computer scams
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:58:10
I suggest that we should have a competition to discover the rudest thing
one can say to a cold caller in the Urdu and Punjabi languages. We could go
as far as Telugu - but that might be thought showing off.
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:16:19
Subject: [SIdeline] Familiarity
Any views on the modern fashion for using familiar names? I am left with
the problem of choosing between Lord Irvine of Lairg (Lord Chancellor as he
then was) or, as the text sometimes has him, Derry Irvine. Personally, I
prefer formality for exactitude and because I am an old-fashioned old git.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Familiarity - drifting slowly off topic
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:29:43
I can add some thoroughly useless information to this thread of my own
devising. The late Lord Taylor of Gosforth CJ understood that his staff
referred to him as "Gozza."
John J
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Fast payment: speeding it through the banking
system
Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 10:40:30
Betimes I have wondered whether universities only exist in a parallel
universe. I once had a wonderful passage of arms with SOAS who were not
prepared to pay me at all because I was neither a limited company nor
registered for VAT. In the alternative, they wished me to attend, in
person, with my passport or work permit for fear that I was some dodgy
Johnnie Foreigner who had just disembarked from a container lorry ...
before I started work. Think about it. Also, the invoice had to be an
original document. Think about it.
After that I didn't mind were I be paid with an AP Herbert negotiable cow
just so long as I got something, sometime.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Passport countersignatures
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 11:44:06
It happens to be the case that I have just renewed my passport and my
neighbour, being a local government officer, having been prepared to vouch
for me passed muster.
John J
288
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 12:53:40
Subject: [SIdeline] Letting off steam
As this seems a good day for blowing off the steam valve ...
I hate authors who:
(1) put perfectly commonplace words in screamers in almost every sentence;
(2) write acres of sententious waffle;
(3) don't check their work [just found "Postal Workers" for "Posted
Workers];
(4) cannot be bothered to get personal names right;
(5) use ...isation and ...ization indiscriminately;
(6) never bother to cite titles of documents accurately or consistently;
(7) generate inaccurate/meaningless footnotes.
You will have guessed by now that what I am suffering under presently is
based upon a PhD thesis. I want to go on my holidays.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Letting off steam
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 13:58:05
Could it be that for the first time in Sideline history we have achieved
unanimity?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] RE: letting off steam
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:36:42
"We should remember that having to maintain a facade of good-humoured
tolerance in the face of provocation isn't unique to indexing."
The fact remains, however, that I am in a chapter headed in large friendly
letters:
Governance as Proceduralisation
You'll never guess the first level A head:
Governance as Proceduralization
And, as if I have not already suffered enough, he then writes at excessive
length about Jurgen Habermas.
Followed by a level B head:
Problematising the Procedural Paradigm
Always avoid alliteration, say I.
Anyone know any good jokes about Habermas to cheer me up?
289
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 10:12:15
Subject: [SIdeline] FW: Sorry to be boring but you have to make allowances
when one gets to my age
Could someone please remind me what is good practice with unusual
expressions which have a particular usage, though not necessarily terms of
art, in a specific context? The instant problem is, "blowback" as used in
historiography rather than plumbing and the bare term looks a bit strange
without quotes, italicisation or some such. I know we have done this one
before but I forget what was the concluded view.
TIA
PS Had a lovely holiday: taking in Bill's wine cellar on Skye and the St
Magnus Festival on Orkney. Two different though equally spiritual
experiences.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] filing order
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:54:23
Further to Maureen's characteristically astute comments, I could tell you
things about the indexing of Woodfall which would make the hair of the
baldest stand on end. Also, don't believe everything you read in law
reports. I have known them get the name of the judge hearing the case wrong
and even a confusion as to whether "Jabberwocky" is Lewis Carroll or Edward
Lear. And, for those of you into naval history, you would not credit the
scars I bear from trying to persuade an author that a book, the subject of
a libel action, was called "The Knight's Move" when All ER said it was "PQ
17" - Broome v Cassell & Co Ltd [1972] 1 All ER 801.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Ships
Date: Sat, 2 July 2011 10:52:39
Ship's name in italics, comma, designation with points in upright is
usually to be preferred. Thus:
Hood, H.M.S.
Care should be taken
because ship names are traditional and often used many times over. H.M.S.
Warspite has been used eight times. Matter is further complicated because
in former years a captured ship might be re-commissioned under her original
name (because it is considered ill-luck to change a ship's name) and those
names could become traditional in two navies. There was an H.M.S Achille
and an H.M.S Swiftsure at Trafalgar together with French National Ships of
the same names.
-----Original Message----From: angela hall Sent: 02 July 2011 10:31
To: 'sideline'
Subject: [SIdeline] Ships
Hi all
This question has probably been asked before but when indexing ship names
should the name be in italics and should the HMS be transposed?
Regards
Angela Hall
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Ships
Date: Sat, 2 July 2011 10:59:04
290
PS
My previous did go out with the names in italics but the italicisation got
lost in the ether. Don't understand why.
Date: Tue, 5 July 2011 15:30:42
Subject: [SIdeline] It's been a long day (OT)
I think we should award an annual "platinum distributed relative award" for
the greatest howler sent to affront our innocent eyes.
I have just found "Norman I (the Conqueror, or the Bastard, as some
preferred ...). Shades of Mr Durbeyfield in "Tess of the d'Urbervilles"
who at least had the excuse of having tasted of the cup when it was ruddy.
To: "'James Lamb'" <[email protected]>,
"'sideline'"
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] legal question - judges names
Date: Wed, 6 July 2011 16:24:32
The answer may be in the question. If it is hard enough for us to be exact,
it may mean even less to the user. As it happens, I have not long since
made an entry for Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr, thinking it little worth while
to describe him as an Associate Justice of the Supreme court.
-----Original Message----From: James Lamb Sent: 06 July 2011 15:34
To: 'sideline'
Subject: [SIdeline] legal question - judges names
I am indexing a chapter which references US Courts, and have entries
(following SI OP2 Indexing legal materials), for example:
Alito S.C.J.
for Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito
I have also come across: Senior Circuit Judge Guido Calabresi What should
be the abbreviation for Senior Circuit Judge?
James
-- James Lamb
Date: Wed, 13 July 2011 10:40:33
Subject: [SIdeline] Parcel deliveries
Is anyone else having problems with the delivery of parcels of work?
I missed an unexpected DHL delivery of what I take to be a parcel of work
on 4 July. When one calls their number, it is answered by an automaton. My
best endeavours are yet to prove successful in obtaining a re-delivery. I
have stayed in on two entire days waiting for allegedly booked attempted
deliveries. Turns out that problems have arisen since DHL passed their
delivery operation to an outfit called 'Yodel'.
291
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Parcel deliveries
Date: Wed, 13 July 2011 11:22:10
I've had some offlist replies from colleagues suggesting that the answer to
my question is in the affirmative.
" ... better and cheaper to have gone for First Class Post."
Indeed, if I can post post-cards in boxes at the roadside, nowhere in
particular, on Orkney with second class stamps and they are delivered the
following morning at addresses in England there may be a lesson here from
which we can take something away.
Date: Thu, 14 July 2011 09:18:26
Subject: [SIdeline] Irish Language
Can a colleague with a knowledge of Irish recommend to me an Irish/English
dictionary? Thank you
Subject: RE: [Sideline][OT] Silent calls
Date: Thu, 14 July 2011 16:22:28
I presume that it is well-known that silent calls arise when a call centre
automatically dials more numbers than the handler can manage.
The TPS seems to be a waste of time and disregarded by these nuisance
mongers. It is a particular grief to me because I am not the last word in
mobile and, should I not have a phone in reach, struggle to answer it and
this is what I get.
To: "'Sally Parker'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Difficult and sensitive problem
Date: Fri, 15 July 2011 08:27:00
Whether or not a contractual relationship subsists, there is another issue.
Sally has relied upon a promise to her detriment - which is inequitable.
The technical expression is it raises an "estoppel". Which is no more than
a legal formulation of common sense: if you give your word you can expect
to be kept to it and may not change your position, just because the fit
takes you, when other persons lose by it through no fault of their own
having relied upon the original promise. Enforcing this is another matter
but it might be worth raising the point.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Ships
Date: Fri, 15 July 2011 09:02:45
I think that the best approach is to ask oneself what is helpful. In a work
where many ships are mentioned there can be opportunities for much
confusion. For example, in former years a warship might be de-commissioned
and redeployed as a training ship carrying the same name and a new warship
built with that name. To this day I am not sure that I was believed, but a
friend who is a family historian came across a photograph of an HMS in
292
existence at a time when an ancestor was said to have served in a ship of
that name. Wrong ship. The right one was a TS perpetuating the name of a
former HMS. But it got better. Turned out that the Admiralty had changed
the name of the HMS, before presenting it, because a previous TS had also
borne that name. I possess a book where the learned author provides us with
images of the vessel in both incarnations without appearing to have noticed
that they are indeed one and the same.
-----Original Message----From: Janice Rayment Sent: 14 July 2011 20:51
To: John Noble; sideline
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Ships
I understand your reasoning here but would it not look better ie more
consistent with the text to follow however HMS is shown there?
Janice
On 2 July 2011 11:46, John Noble <[email protected]> wrote:
> I agree with John J. except, personally I would not bother with points in
> H.M.S., they take up line space which may be needed. >
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Ships [now OT]
Date: Fri, 15 July 2011 11:33:20
They are sometimes known as "stone frigates" and have the advantage of
being difficult to sink.
And, a propos our next discussion on fees, a line from "A little book of
Japanese wisdom" I was given this morning:
A man who truckles to his superior for a mere pittance of a stipend, is he
who gives up his invisible independence to get visible independence and a
man to be despised.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Ships [OT]
Date: Fri, 15 July 2011 12:26:17
I don't know but, as it is my birthday, I feel entitled to be even sillier
than usual. It is said that there is a South African budget airline where
the flight attendant, giving the safety instructions, says that the seat
belts fit together the same as most others and if you cannot do this
perhaps you should not be travelling at all. Also, when the oxygen masks
come down adults should fix their own first before attending to a child and
those responsible for more than one should pick the one they like best.
Anyone going to make a Shipping Forecast/'Are we still all at sea on the
subject' joke?
I read somewhere that when an early plane flew across the Channel the
'relevant official' who came to greet its occupants, not having a suitable
classification, coded the 'means of getting to Britain' (or whatever the
technical term was) as 'private yacht.'
293
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Ships [OT and then some]
Date: Fri, 15 July 2011 13:07:59
In for a penny, in for a pound and not even a Sir Dudley Pound at that
(joke, naval historians, for the use of). That great man, in every sense
of the word, the actor Peter Bull (notable for a bit part as the captain of
the Koenigen Louisa in "The African Queen") but also Act. Temp. Lt. Cdr.
Peter Cecil Bull D.S.C., R.N.V.R., received an official letter addressed
quite simply to "H.M.S. Bull". He replied saying: "As I myself have not
been fully commissioned as a seagoing craft or shore establishment, I fear
I cannot answer your courteous enquiry."
PS Moderator: please put a stop to all this nonsense. I am trying to earn a
living despite myself.
-----Original Message----From: Michael Forder Sent: 15 July 2011 12:45
To: Glyn Sutcliffe; sideline
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Ships
If a shore establishment was commissioned as HMS, the Naval Discipline Act
automatically applied to it and all serving in it.
Michael Forder
----- Original Message ---From: Glyn Sutcliffe <[email protected]>
To: sideline <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, 15 July, 2011
11:18:00
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Ships
I've always thought it is bizarre that the Royal Navy refers to shore
establishments as HMS, but may God bless them and all who sail in them.
e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Royal_Arthur_(shore_establishment)
The first Royal Arthur was previously a Butlins holiday camp!
Glyn
Date: Fri, 22 July 2011 10:41:56
Subject: [SIdeline] Silent answers
I have received a plague of silent calls, of almost Biblical proportions
this week, and have developed a technique. I keep a hands free phone by me
and set it to "speaker", when I pick up, so as not to miss anyone I want to
talk to and let the others rabbit on to their hearts' content without
saying a word. I hope that I am beginning to give them as much grief as
they give me.
Date: Fri, 22 July 2011 17:21:39
I am very disturbed to have received a message from a colleague whose other
messages (off-list) have not reached Oadby. Should any colleague have sent
me a message off-list, to which I ought to have responded and have not,
please repeat them and I will acknowledge. If I do not do so within 24
hours, please send me a text. In the normal run of things I am noted for
294
being a remorseless correspondent. Thank you.
Date: Sat, 23 July 2011 17:03:51
Subject: [SIdeline] FW: Account Upgrade
Dear All,
Is this some new vicious scam?
-----Original Message----From: HelpDesk [mailto:[email protected]]
Subject: Account Upgrade
Sent: 23 July 2011 16:14
Dear,Email Account Owner,
This message is from WEBMAIL messaging center to all WEBMAIL & Other
Webmails" email account owners We are currently upgrading our data base and
e-mail account center.
We are deleting all WEBMAIL email accounts due to congestion just to create
more space for new accounts.
To prevent your account from being deleted you will have to update it by
providing the below informations so that we will know that it's a present
used account.
We have been sending this notice to all our WEBMAIL email account owners
and this is the last
notice/verification exercise.
CONFIRM YOUR EMAIL IDENTITY BELOW
Full Name: Email: Password: Secret Question: Answer:
Warning!!!
Account owner that refuses to update his or her account within four days of
receiving this warning will lose his or her account permanently. Thank you
for using WEBMAIL account!
Warning to Code:VX2G99AAJ
Thanks, Customer Care Webmail Admin.
-Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Portuguese name
Date: Mon, 25 July 2011 12:19:16
According to Mulvany:
"The prefix of Portuguese names is not alphabetized, and the name is
entered under the element following the prefix."
I conclude:
Silva, Sara Reis da
Date: Thu, 28 July 2011 11:22:53
Subject: [SIdeline] Junk calls [OT]
295
Sorry to make myself tedious on this subject but can anyone explain to me
how my ex-d line has been hacked? Had the familiar, "Can I speak to Mister
Jiffrees?" It could get a person down.
I do possess an Acme Thunderer ex-BR guard's whistle. Notwithstanding that
it might be assault with intent to occasion actual bodily harm, contrary to
the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, today may find me blowing it.
Date: Thu, 28 July 2011 12:17:52
Subject: [SIdeline] Junk calls [still OT but attracting interest]
A number of friends and colleagues have responded sympathetically off list
to my last for which I thank them. One suggested that BT might have sold my
details to a third party. So we rang the Gas Board - sorry BT - and they
denied in terms that they did such a thing but that, if I paid them some
money, they could block such calls. It was at this point that I was
reminded of where the monkey stuck his nuts and told them so. It was
inevitable that the call centre was almost certainly in the sub-continent.
Any one remember the Paul Merton show where a chap on a motor bike rides
round with a monkey riding pillion has who a job chasing off other monkeys
which are a nuisance to people? But I ramble and digress.
As well as the highly commendable Acme Thunderer, I also possess a railway
shunting horn which makes a much louder and very discordant noise. Which to
choose?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Junk calls [still OT but attracting interest]
Date: Thu, 28 July 2011 12:48:44
Hey, now that is what I call one seriously good idea. It works wonderfully.
I also possess a boatswain's call but the simultaneous deployment of same
defies anatomical possibility. I'll have to ask a friend.
-----Original Message----From: Linda Sutherland Sent: 28 July 2011 12:46
To: Sideline
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Junk calls [still OT but attracting interest]
At 12:17 28/07/2011, john jeffries wrote: >As well as the highly
commendable Acme Thunderer, I also possess a >railway shunting horn which
makes a much louder and very discordant >noise. Which to choose?
If you're going to create decibel hell, you may as well do so as thoroughly
as possible. Any chance of blowing both together ?!
>
Linda Sutherland [email protected] http://www.tarristi.co.uk/
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Junk calls [still OT but attracting interest]
Date: Thu, 28 July 2011 14:59:01
The reason
registered
being from
UK numbers
I think the TPS is a complete load of wazz is because I have
and some of the calls manifestly obviously do come from inland
people who speak English as she is spoke and sometimes call from
but which themselves do not accept call backs.
296
Now, if we all wrote to our MPs and said that we had had enough of this
game of dominoes something might be done about it and we could close these
nuisance-mongers down once and for all. The door-step energy sales persons
have already been exposed as the representative of the odious bunch of
crooks they are.
I could have been indexing legal history this morning and paying for my
next holiday.
-----Original Message----From: John Wintrip Sent: 28 July 2011 13:25
To: 'John Sampson'; [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Junk calls [still OT but attracting interest]
Being registered with the TPS, I get very few such calls, but when I do
(seemingly from the Indian subcontinent) I relish the opportunity for my
own amusement, for example:
Caller:
Me:
Caller:
Me:
Caller:
should take
Me:
Caller puts
Am I speaking to the man of the house
No, you are speaking to the lady of the house
I think I am speaking to the man of the house
I assure you that you are speaking to the lady of the house
We would like you to take part in a short lifestyle survey that
less than 5 minutes
I don't approve of short lifestyle surveys
down phone. How rude!
John
Date: Sat, 30 July 2011 15:59:15
Subject: [SIdeline] Names again
It's bad enough that it's Saturday (it is Saturday, isn't it?) but I'm
doing a chapter on the Year Books (only legal indexers know what it is to
truly suffer) but I've got:
H. Ke Chin Wong
Any ideas please? This one leaves me guessing. I am running with filing
under Wong at the moment.
TIA
Date: Sun, 31 July 2011 10:14:36
Subject: [SIdeline] Bible
It's now Sunday (it is Sunday, isn't it?) and I'm still doing legal
history. Aptly for the day I have now hit a piece of argument built around
I Cor.12. It's about the differing concepts of a natural body and a body
politic. The subjects I can hack, it's the NT ref I am having trouble with.
I have read what Booth says about Biblical citation but it doesn't help me
here. Does the following, using Macrex, make sense as a heading?
{I }Corinthians 12~!~
TIA
297
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] tax payment
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:03:49
Your client is quite clearly in the wrong. If you are self-employed you do
not fall to be taxed in this way and they cannot have had a tax code from
which to make the assessment. It also means that they are treating you as
their employee which is not in their interest or yours. Best write to them,
providing your HMRC details, demand payment in full, and have the use of
the money until you make the appropriate payment on account.
-----Original Message----From: David Rudeforth Sent: 01 August 2011 08:51
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] tax payment
I've just been sent a cheque from a university in advance payment for an
index that I've agreed to do when the proofs are ready. The fee was £500
but the university have deducted £100 for tax and written the cheque for
£400. This is the first time I've been paid in advance and the first time
tax has been deducted from the fee. I normally send a tax return and
declare my total income for the year. What should I do about this? I don't
want to be taxed twice for the same job. Any thoughts or advice would be
welcome.
David Rudeforth
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 11:04:30
Subject: [SIdeline] Nuisance calls [very OT]
This week has been no better.
Following Laurence's strictures, however, I have worked out a script:
Welcome to the Aphrodite Glue Works
Please choose one of the following options: If you wish to place an order
for glue ... please press 1, followed by the hash key
If you wish to complain about an unpaid invoice ... please press 2,
followed by the hash key
If you wish to abuse a member of staff ... please press 3, followed by the
hash key
If you wish us to stop your children rioting ... please press 4, followed
by the hash key
If you wish to hear this message in a different language ... please feel
free to emigrate to a country where they speak it
Otherwise, please stay on the line and one of our operators will serve you
in a moment
We value your call. Thank you for calling the Aphrodite Glue Works
We are currently experiencing high call volumes. Your call is in a queuing
system. Your position in the queue is ... twenty ... five
We are aware of your call. Thank you for calling the Aphrodite Glue Works
Did you know it is quicker and easier to contact us via our website at
www.Aphroditesuperglue.co.uk ?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Screen vs paper [was: Charging for pdfs]
298
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:50:09
I think that Bill's excellent point goes as much to length as complexity though often the two are inter-connected. If it is a screen full it's no
big deal to cope with it on screen but anything more than that exceeds the
mental competence of a bear with so little brain as me. It is so deeply
seared into my consciousness that I have probably mentioned it before, but
I once had a book which kicked off with 150 pages simply headed "position
paper". After that it got worse. Without wielding the old Stabilo Boss
original on some sheets of paper, a difficult task would have been
impossible. And no, I never did grasp what the position was and the book
was called simply, "Complexity". I do remember that French pornography and
existential amphibians came into it and also the paintings of Degas and the
laws of thermodynamics. There might have been a bit of Nietzsche in there
too.
-----Original Message----From: Bill Johncocks Sent: 12 August 2011 13:30
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Screen vs paper [was: Charging for pdfs]
This topic has come round so often and I'm so tried of biting my lip that,
especially with play interrupted in the Test Match, I can't resist joining
in. If you google 'reading from screens', then '... vs paper' is one of the
choices on offer. What came up first for me was a critical review from 1992
(http://www.ischool.utexas.edu/~adillon/Journals/Reading.htm), which seems
to imply that comparisons not involving deep comprehension (as indexing
should) are of limited value.
Though preferences are individual, I can't see that there can be any
dispute that printing out yields higher-quality indexes. Marking possible
terms, points that need clarification and potential errors and
inconsistencies on hard copy, then entering the terms on the split screen
with PDF open alongside CINDEX, gives me a second bite at the cherry.
During the on-screen phase, I can reconsider decisions and pause to settle
outstanding issues (many will already have been resolved by what came
later) in the light of having read the whole chapter (usually), which is
half way towards the unattainable ideal of reading the book before
starting to index it. Working on hard-copy I get advance warning of
lengthening locator runs and can begin to supply subentries in advance, and
know to supply others in phase two, which saves time. Knowing the context
improves my choice of subentries too. Working from the screen is undeniably
faster but I can't see any way that it can be better and, I think, it must
always produce a measurably inferior product. That's not about
comprehension but about having an adjustable-length, built-in interval to
reflect and reconsider. To persuade me otherwise, you'd have to claim that,
having made a first pass on a text, you've never had any second thoughts
about a single decision.
Certainly, for me, the quality difference is very marked. The only
advantage of working on the screen might be time saved, though much of that
time will be required for more changes at the editing stage. Even if you
remember to make them though, the quality difference can never be wholly
made up once the index is complete. So, I'm with Laurence on this one.
John's idea of printing out our emails before reading them is a bit extreme
but don't we anyway if they're long and complex? Just printing and reading
- even spell-checking - the ones we are about to send might be a start!
Bill --
299
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Bibliographical indexing: finding people by given
name
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 09:03:12
I think this is a discussion well worth having and it may go even broader
than Maureen's point because of the use of honorifics, sobriquets,
nicknames or however they may be described. In some groups it verges on bad
manners to refer to anyone by their real name. My neighbour, who is
slightly Asian is invariably know as "Sid" even though it is nothing like
any of his real names. And the Indian No.4 is most often referred to as
"The Little Master". In the society in which I was dragged up in
Birmingham, my father's best friends were "Drummer", "Porky", "Soapy",
"Dusty", "The Dummy" and the "Lord Mayor of Northfield". He was himself
"The Big Fellah". And before you ask, I was "Fuzz".
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 11:56:57
Subject: [SIdeline] Indexing stuff
Just for a lark, and to show that I am not still living in the 1990's, I
have started indexing a book from a .pdf. Truth to tell this is largely
because of waiting for a DHL hard copy delivery and all the world knows one
can wait a long time for one of those. I am finding it easy but only
because of what I had previously supposed. The work is well organised,
divided up into nice concise sections with conveniently meaningful headings
and where a paragraph of text deals with a specific subject and then moves
on to another. Had it been a whole load of ugly baleful maundering on an
unending train of stupid - such as I usually get - the method would not
work.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Sideline Publisher requiring you take a test
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:08:49
Not exactly, but, when the occupants of a certain Helvetic rural dwelling
tried to tell me how to index books I was reminded of where an arboreal
dweller kept his winter store. And it's even more of a cheek from any who
pay in similar coinage.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Names, names, names....
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:55:15
In my humble opinion it is better to keep it as simple as possible without
misleading the reader.
The other week I was confounded by similar problems and concluded, because
of constraints of space, to go with the surname most likely to be though of
first and may be add a title afterwards, if it seemed useful, and not
bother with knighthoods at all. This was because the author had mentioned
every one he knew of in history from the last millennium.
The aristos cause enough trouble as it is. Churchill called himself Winston
S. Churchill after being congratulated for books he had not written (the
works of the other Winston Churchill) but, in being the lowliest form of
human life at Harrow, obtained no benefit even from the alphabet because he
was listed under Spencer-Churchill. Even had he not refused the dukedom he
was offered, I doubt anyone would ever think of looking for him anywhere
other than under "Churchill".
-----Original Message-----
300
From: Wendy Baskett Sent: 25 August 2011 11:28
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Names, names, names....
I'm getting myself tied up in knots here worrying about names.
I'm indexing some memoirs where there are lots of people mentioned who
acquired or changed titles during their lifetime. Sometimes the author
mentions this, as in 'He is now Lord X of Y' and sometimes he doesn't, even
when the person must have had their title at the time he is writing about
(e.g. talking about Winston Churchill when he would have been Sir Winston).
At first I tried following the author's usage, but then found myself
wanting to add titles to those I was familiar with. However, I can't very
well do some and not all in an arbitrary fashion. If I have to check every
name just in case someone was knighted or made a baron, not only will it
take a long time, but I fear the index will begin to look cluttered, as it
seems to apply to rather a lot of them. Part of me feels that, in the
context of the book, it's perfectly adequate to put (say)
Callaghan, James Jenkins, Roy Macmillan, Harold
but if other entries seem to require 'Sir' or 'Lord' it all becomes very
subjective and inconsistent.
Many of the people in the book are still living and I don't want to cause
offence by including titles for some but not others. Perhaps I should only
worry about the ones who are still alive?!
Does anyone have any words of wisdom? Or even just sympathy?
With best wishes, Wendy
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] HP 'special offer'
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 09:25:47
And I used to think that people in the IT business had no sense of humour
;o)
I've received an email from HP with a 'special offer' to extend my
warranty for a printer before it (the warranty!) expires.
Option 1 is:
3 year warranty extension service free replacement of the entitled material
within 7 business days for £30
Option 2
is:
This 3 year warranty extension service provides free replacement of the
entitled material next business day for £40
Who are they kidding? I can get the same printer new from Amazon for £25.
Christine
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] 'Toe-curling' indexes
301
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 18:12:41
I missed doing a part of a journal I index on a regular basis and found
myself curing what had been done in my stead. To produce successive subentries:
competition law enforcement
enforcement of competition law
(with different locators) under headings for a number of countries left me
wondering whether it was want of sense rather than want of experience or
knowledge of legal indexing.
-----Original Message----From: Nigel d'Auvergne Sent: 08 September 2011 17:06
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] 'Toe-curling' indexes
If 'toe-curling' indexes are still being produced the day after qualifying,
the indexer is not yet qualified. Maybe all that's needed is some more
mentoring by experienced indexers. A 'newly-qualified' index will have
taken longer to produce, but it should be indistinguishable from an
'experienced' index.
Nigel
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] careless authors
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 08:05:14
What's really deplorable is when one can see immediately that it is wrong
which leaves a person wondering how much reliance can be placed upon the
rest they have written. My favourite chestnut - and I have come across it
more than once - is the Hound of the Baskervilles as the curious incident
of the dog in the night time. Then again, I dare say that being pursued by
a spectral hound probably is quite curious. I backed Silver Blaze at ten to
one and it came in at half past two. Oh, alright: suit yourselves.
Subject: [SIdeline] Alec Guinness (was "de" names)
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 17:26:38
'Winnie the Pooh'.
There is a Latin translation of this important work published as "Winnie
ille Pooh": literally, "Winnie that Pooh" because the language has no
definite article. I just thought those who didn't already might wish to
know this. I may never live long enough to see an index entry:
ille Pooh, Winnie
but I still hope that I might.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] JRC-Names: A highly multilingual named entity
resource- interesting website (now OT)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:30:54
Jane writes: ... You need a name the punters can remember how to type or
they'll never find you on Amazon ...
302
Amen dixitque. I long ago gave up hope that anyone would ever spell my
surname correctly. The record is three different in one piece of
correspondence and none of them right. My particular favourite, however, is
"Mr Jo Feffries". The upside is that you can tell which lot have sold on
your address details to whom by the misspelling of the name.
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:54:03
Subject: [SIdeline] Personal and off topic
Could anyone with medical knowledge please tell me what is Russell-Silver
Syndrome and the likely prognosis for an infant diagnosed with same?
Thank you.
Subject: [SIdeline] Personal and off topic
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:51:00
Very many thanks to Bill, Cath, David, Jan, Jeremy, Rosemary and Walter for
helpful, considerate and informative replies. Thanks also to the Moderator
for silent forbearance.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Fees: OUP
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:07:53
Message-ID:
They have received so many pieces of my mind that they don't ask anymore.
In any event, I see no need to subsidise further the dealings of that
institution. I am reliably informed that at least one college makes so much
from its real property investments that it doesn't really need to charge
fees.
-----Original Message----From: Maureen MacGlashan Sent: 11 November 2011 12:58
To: 'SideLineList'
Subject: [SIdeline] Fees: OUP
I have just declined, for the umpteenth time, an invitation from OUP
Academic Law to join their list of free-lance indexers, the fee on offer
being £1.30 per page. As usual I have drawn their attention to the
Society’s recommendations. I wonder if they will come back with the
justification they have previously offered that they are a ‘not for profit’
organization.
Maureen MacGlashan
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Fees: OUP
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:36:10
(In which case, they presumably prefer to use 'not for profit' indexers,
i.e. those who do it as a hobby rather than a living.)
More than this I think that they are willing to suppose that we enjoy
freezing in our garrets subsisting on something akin to the national
minimum wage and do not actually communicate with each other. If we accept
303
such rates, for what ever reason, we have but ourselves to thank. To be
honest, the time may be fast approaching when it might occur to their
thought that they need us much more that we need them. I have turned down
better work today and, in any event, I am not a monkey and do not expect to
be paid in nuts.
(In which case, they presumably prefer to use 'not for profit' indexers,
i.e. those who do it as a hobby rather than a living.)
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Keeping records
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 09:08:07
I'm usually with Maureen and I agree that, as she implies, it is better to
over-meticulous with correspondence, diaries and so forth. My basic record
is a chronological note book:
Date Invoice no.
Amount billed
Title of work and extent
Who for
Tells me what I need and little to provide for.
We are all, however, different. In my case it is because I have a
completely visual memory so, if it isn't written down, I haven't any
knowledge of it. I cannot now give you an example of something I have
forgotten (silly question, unintended, legal defence counsel, for the use
of - in a PI case relating to amnesia) but, aside from the large number I
should have preferred to forget about, I doubt I should now even recognise
many of the books I have indexed. After about 500 they all blur into one.
Zoe Ross said, as part of her message on applying for advanced membership
status:
"It's taken me an age as it is to try and remember/find out when indexes
were commissioned and delivered as far back as 2 years ago. I keep records
of payments but not every email I ever receive..."
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] newspaper column, name of (italics?)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:23:23
I had a job once indexing the Jewish Chronicle which, whilst not without
its idiosyncrasies, was not as bad as this.
Without knowing more, if I were working in Macrex, I'd probably go:
^An Irishman's Diary^
[sub-entries]
^Irish Times^, ^Irishman's Diary^ see ^An Irishman's Diary^
the italicisation serving to indicate that it is a literary form rather
than a subject.
Truth to tell, I doubt the convention actually chosen matters much so long
as that distinction is clear. Sorting out the text, however, is not what
one is being paid for.
304
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 12:24:46
Subject: [SIdeline] Going to the dogs: a message from the corridors of
power
- completely pointless and off-topic [save for all you cat
dog lovers]
and
The economy is in shreds, wars abound and people starve. Meanwhile, in
Westminster ...
[But then it is Friday and I have 1,800 pages on state immunities.]
_____________________________________________
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Can my right hon. Friend explain why the Home
Office has responsibility for dangerous dogs and he seems to have
responsibility for domestic cats?
24 Nov 2011 : Column 437
Mr Paice: Well, it is probably because, as anyone who knows me will
confirm, I am extremely soft and really just a pussycat myself.
______________________________________________
For anyone who watches TV Burp, please find below "Defra Oral PQs highlight
of the week":
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): Further to that reply, one of the
consequences of the dangerous dogs debate has been the stigmatisation of an
entire breed, the Staffordshire bull terrier, which makes up a huge
percentage of the abandoned dogs that Battersea Dogs and Cats Home takes in
and a vast bulk of those that are hard to re-home. Yesterday, Battersea
Dogs and Cats Home launched a campaign in Parliament to reclaim the good
name of the Staffordshire bull terrier. May I invite the Minister to
endorse that campaign?
Mr Paice: Yes, I am happy to endorse that campaign, having been brought up
as a child with bull terriers, as my parents had them - [Interruption]. I
said "with", not "by". I entirely accept my hon. Friend's contention that
the vast majority of that breed are perfectly harmless.
Mr Speaker: Much has now been explained. We are very grateful to the
Minister.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Recognition!
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 12:03:35
It is indeed a rare compliment. I still get royalty statements for a book I
uttered upon a fearful world some thirty years ago (once a year they write
to say I am 35p in credit). In those days, I could no more have done the
index then than sprout wings and fly. May be the indexer who did it is no
longer with us but I still take my hat off to who ever it was for a better
index than I have ever done.
305
2012
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 12:47:11
Subject: [SIdeline] Taxation
I am writing this message whilst listening to horrid music being played by
HMRC who have kept me on hold for an hour. All I want to find out is what
they expect me to pay them at the end of the month. Anybody else watch
Richard Wilson the other night?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Taxation
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:04:03
Perhaps it might be helpful if I mentioned that as well as causing me to
want to go outside and cut my own throat, and as well as extolling the
effulgent glory and ethereal merits of their truly wonderful and
indescribably magnificent website which is a joy and a beauty to behold and
stupendous in every way (about 30 times) the automaton told me that the
catch is that you have to be registered and it takes seven days to obtain
an authorisation code. It takes 14 days to obtain a payslip. So, unless the
Bishop of Bath and Wells gets to us first, we are all going to be
transported to Botany Bay whether we know what to pay, when and to whom in
the first place.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] indexing court cases - help needed
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:40:02
I see no merit in using "case law" as a main heading though once in a while
it might be helpful as a sub-entry - often because some areas of law are
more common law driven than by statute law and vice versa.
In as much as there is a lot of value here from an indexing point of view,
the basis on which a case is decided will be worthy of note [it is a
subject] but whether it is a binding precedent would be discussed in the
text [not one's problem]. Unfortunately, it is more of a bar of soap than
is immediately obvious because, when they disagree with a previous
authority, judges often go for the "distinguished" approach: in other words
they just say it is different. Cases which follow previous authorities are
really of little importance so far as the ratio decidendi is concerned and
unlikely to be reported anyway. Actions which are compromised, moreover,
although they may attract media attention have little legal content. Thus,
if some Dirty Digger were to offer to pay off a footie player whose phone
had been tapped a judge might approve the settlement and the action
effectively struck out. It's certainly a "case" but without much "law".
It is, however, worth remembering that there are many tribunal decisions
handed down every year and, once in a while, may become regarded as
precedent. The taxation of milk quotas is something about which most of us
can lead our lives in complete ignorance but it happens to be true that one
particular decision of the Special Commissioners in such a matter is
regarded as definitive.
Some decisions can, on the other hand, be seismic. In R v R the House of
Lords concluded that not only was marital rape an offence but that it never
had been the law of England that there was a marital rape exemption. The
facts of the case and the legal argument deployed are very important indeed
but "R v R" under a heading "case law" would be the lesser half of no use
306
at all.
Whether case should be indexed or better left alone to be tabled has been
discussed beyond the limits of exhaustion in the past.
-----Original Message----From: Marian Anderson Sent: 23 January 2012 13:55
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] indexing court cases - help needed
Where a court case needs indexing, is it correct to use 'case law' as entry
with the details as subs or (I have been thrown into doubt here) can there
be court cases that don't qualify as case law? Thanks in advance
Marian (Anderson) [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Legal publisher's procedures and software use
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:29:47
I used to do a lot of work for this company until I reached the conclusion
that life was too short. I well recall a document which stated that
indexing could be done in two ways: (1) by writing on slips of paper; and
(2) "by computer" - by which was meant word processing. This was because
they were in the thrall of a person who had no knowledge of or any desire
to know anything at all about indexing software.
The point about a controlled vocabulary is interesting. This one was
devised as a system for creating a bibliographic database of journal
literature. I confess to have wondered myself whether it was useful for
back of book indexing until I thought on. In the first place, it supposes a
hierarchy of knowledge which does not actually exist and gave rise to some
absurd results. For example taxation of costs - in other words the
assessment of what costs will be allowed in a legal action - had to be
indexed as "taxation" and "costs" which led one upwards to income taxation.
Worse still, much depended upon whether the indexer could use the thesaurus
properly so you could find the same object variously indexed as "medical
negligence"; "doctors; negligence"; "doctors; professional negligence".
Also "reverse discrimination" was barred and "positive discrimination"
preferred except that "discrimination" is a concept in trade law as well as
employment law and we might be led to conclude that the French positively
discriminated in favour of foreign imports: I don't think so. You can get
unintentional reverse discrimination.
English is a subtle, nuanced and sophisticated language. Legal discourse is
not any different. To properly deploy a controlled vocabulary it would have
to be imposed upon authors. It is hard to see how it can be satisfactorily
imposed ex post facto on the indexing. Other scars I still bear concern a
collected work I once did where the academic editor was not prepared to
change the words of the contributors in the text but she'd be damned to see
indexed terminology used with which she did not agree. More than that there
are constructs in legal literature which are controversial. A "resulting
trust" may or may not exist - I would not know - but whether they do or not
is a matter for debate.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Worker representation, was Fees [somewhat OT]
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:44:14
With the greatest respect to the Moderator I do wonder whether it is
307
satisfactory even to contemplate trying to keep politics out of it because
politics is about power and power is what we either exercise or, more
likely, end up on the receiving end of and no more obviously than when it
comes to the wonga.
This was visited upon me forcefully last week when we got on to the
bananas. It was only with the greatest restraint, which fails me today,
that I did not join in and mention that the business of the bananas was
about the profits of American conglomerates, with their industrial scale
production, versus the pence upon Windward Island growers (and nothing else
to live on) survive to see the next dawn. Why, given the choice, they might
even prefer to work for OUP.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] what is political? was Fees [somewhat OT]
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:59:58
I have to confess my full agreement with Margaret. It's not that I have got
anything against see also refs per se but sometimes it do strike me that we
have bigger and bigger ideas about smaller and smaller things whilst the
world goes on around us. There has always been a danger that in supposing
one has fenced oneself in one has also fenced the rest of the world out.
The avoidance of attacks of a wholly personal nature is simply a matter of
conventional good manners but the denial of one's own opinion is a denial
of what it is to be oneself. I suspect that most of us feel better for the
safety valve of letting it rip albeit the energy is wasted. Perhaps I am
just getting old and useless.
From: "john jeffries" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:10:58
Subject: [SIdeline] Late Payments
I have just made my fourth application for payment for a job done last
November from an organisation I have done work for more years that I prefer
to recall and without any previous difficulties as to the settlement of
invoices. That's just my problem but it does leave me wondering how much
money one has to have in hand just to remain solvent. Employed people
generally get by from month to month. I used to think that freelancing
meant three months. May be the situation has been reached whether, without
four months winnings in hand, one should do well to think of another way of
getting by.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] retirement
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:38:07
Old indexers never retire ... they just lose the capacity to collocate
their distributed relatives. Bill is showing his age, five star rank is now
in abeyance except in times of warfare which, as we only need to watch the
news to know, doesn't happen these days.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Payment problems
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 11:14:28
I have experienced similar difficulties with these as well as other
punters. On the whole, I find that desk editors are friends in court
308
because they need our goodwill as much as we need theirs and anyway they
are usually decent people. Most of them will rattle their bars on our
behalf in response to a polite request. Purchase ledger departments,
however, are a different kettle of fish and, in a previous incarnation, I
found that publishers had stopped supplying me because the head of finance
had made the unilateral and uncommunicated decision only to settle trade
invoices after 60 days. As unsecured creditors we will always be last in
the queue. They are seeking free credit for cash-flow rather than interest
payment reasons and it's a feature of the trade cycle. Companies are more
likely to go bust at the end of a recession than during it because
creditors/lenders have too much to lose themselves when things are really
bad and more to gain by pulling the plug as the economic climate improves.
So far as I can see this is the only comfort which can be derived.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] University of Bristol self-employed status
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:46:05
I don't - but this strikes me as a problem with "one size fits all"
contracts. Unsurprisingly, were the University to employ a gas fitter to
service equipment and, as a result of some catastrophe a hall of residence
and all within it were lost in an explosion, it would expect to be
indemnified. On the other hand, whilst I am sure I have produced some
rotten indexes, I doubt they have ever killed or injured anyone. Even on
some narrower ground, say defamation or intellectual property infringement,
they would have exercised their judgement in passing the work for
publication rather than relying exclusively on our expertise. As a result,
if there were a problem with it, they would be presumed to have
constructive knowledge of any defects. If, in good faith, we do some work
which does what it says on the tin, it's hard to imagine any claim for
consequential loss succeeding or being worth, as the lawyers say, "powder
and shot".
I suggest that the best approach would be to ask them what
insurance they expect and for what.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] mistake in an index
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:37:13
I long ago came to terms with my imperfections. Had God intended us to be
perfect, He would have arranged the world differently. As it happens, I
know for a fact that a sometime Wheatley medallist did once manage a
descending locator range in an edition of a rather important work of
reference. And if you think that is bad, in another edition, the publisher
forgot to print the index altogether. Don't beat yourself up, Sharon: it
me be unfortunate but it isn't that important.
-----Original Message----From: Sharon Redmayne Sent: 15 March 2012 14:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] mistake in an index
For the first time in my 2 years as an indexer I've received copies of 2
books I recently indexed for a publisher, complete with a named credit.
Feeling pleased I turned to one of the indexes and the first thing I see is
a page span saying 138-134! Naturally I rush to check the original file I
submitted to them and see that, unfortunately, that is indeed what I wrote
in the original, which slipped through my (I thought) meticulous checking.
(It should've been 130-13. Now I feel very deflated, and want to hide the
books! I'm not sure quite why I'm posting this, other than to get it off
309
my chest, as I fear no-one else, other than another indexer, will
appreciate the disappointment I feel now.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Filing form for a US Justice
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:04:48
Sandra asks about Supreme Court justices.
O'Connor, Sandra Day is
probably sufficient. O'Connor, Justice Sandra Day, Associate Justice is
perfectly correct but may be over the top.
Subject: FW: [SIdeline] Filing form for a US Justice
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:12:07
Withdraw my previous. What I meant was:Sandra asks about Supreme Court justices.
O'Connor, Sandra Day is probably sufficient.
O'Connor, Sandra Day, Associate Justice is perfectly correct but may be
over the top.
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 13:49:33
Subject: [SIdeline] Portuguese Indexer
I am not sure whether this posting lies without the etiquette but I have
been asked by a good customer whether I know of a Portuguese indexer. I
take this to mean fluency in the language rather than nationality. With the
Moderator's forbearance if I am in the wrong, I'll pass on the details of
anyone who contacts me off-list.
TIA
Subject: FW: [SIdeline] ships' names
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:13:35
Michele wrote:
"I have two ships to index (and I have looked this up to no avail in 5
textbooks): HM Troopship /Miltiades/ Castle Line /Kinfaun's Castle/, also
referred to as RMS ..."
Definitely the name of the vessel in italics first followed by what ever
else is important in the context. RMS (= Royal Mail Ship) probably is
worthwhile. It would be an unusual book which required entries listed under
the name of a shipping line.
"HM troopship", however, puzzles me. During the twentieth century - very
much in the cases of WWI and WWII - troopships were invariably converted
passenger liners on hire (there were even tax breaks to encourage shipping
lines to build ships which could be adapted for war use). Dedicated, Crownowned troopships ceased to be in general use after the nineteenth century.
I don't think that troopships have been used at all since the Falklands
war. I'd say put "troopship" in parentheses if it helps but otherwise
ignore.
310
PS My father's least popular Mediterranean holiday was courtesy of the
Orient Lines, SS Orontes, sailed from Liverpool in 1943. The RAOC, however,
thought he was enjoying himself so much they let him stay for three years.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] CUP instructions
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2012 10:25:09
I find the instructions Christine has been sent rather extraordinary the
more so, because years and years ago, when I first did work for CUP I
received a little leaflet entitled "Making an index" aimed at authors which
so far as it went (not very far) was at least mainly sensible. Referring to
index cards, a paragraph beginning: "If you do not have access to a
computer ..." merely serves to indicate the age of the text. What has been
sent to Christine must be something which had fallen down the back of the
filing cabinet and only recently re-discovered ... or perhaps inspired by
the tortured imagination of the author as to what indexing might be about?
Subject: RE: [Sideline] [OT] Staircases
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 09:49:15
Seen in Oadby, on Monday, during a heavy rain storm: a Council workman
watering hanging baskets.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] pluralizing Latin phrase [I prefer 'pluralising' but
still OT]
Date: Tue, 3 July 2012 22:23:32
Maureen wrote:
At which point the Waverley, our lovely 'last ocean-going paddle steamer'
hove into view at the end of what must have been a cold day trip. I must be
quick enough one of these days with a camera and hopefully a shining sun to
catch this 'view from my desk'.
Nice. And so is eating dinner at the Polochar Inn on South Uist watching
the Hebridean Princess hull down on the horizon.
To show that my mind is still playing tunefully, however, I am reminded of
a piece of retrieval software which looked for regular Latin plurals so,
for Weetabix, it would also search for Weetabices - and tell you it had
done so. I wish I had tried to catch it out with cestui que trust.
All this erudition, sadly, was brought home to me as strangely wasted when
one learned author decided that not only did agenda need to be pluralised
but adopted "agendae". O tempora, O lingua.
PS. Pointless question of the week: Is "children" the only double plural in
conventional English?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] pluralizing Latin phrase [I prefer 'pluralising' but
still OT]
Date: Wed, 4 July 2012 19:38:18
I never realised how much I could warm to one of these discussions. This is
311
fun.
Why don't we forget about all this Latin and Middle English stuff and go
back to some good honest Anglo-Saxon?
and saede him: Laetao tha lytlingas to me cumin, and ne forbeode ge him.
DAET GODSPEL AEFTER MARCUS GERECEDNYSSE X:14
Note that the word "him" appears to embrace the masculine and the feminine
and both the singular and the plural.
-Dr John Jeffries 8 Beech Road, Oadby LEICS LE2 5QL Tel
Txt +44(0)7748413790 Email [email protected]
+44(0)1162719007
-----Original Message----From: Bill Johncocks [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 04 July
2012 01:47
To: john jeffries
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] pluralizing Latin phrase [I prefer 'pluralising' but still OT]
Dear John,
Can't supply any double plurals I'm afraid although I'm depressed that, in
the desperate search for euphemisms for the plain word 'soldier', both the
former collective nouns of 'troop' and 'force' have become converted into
countables, as in 'five British troops/forces were injured...'
Maureen is a Hebridean Princess fan as well of course. With your civil
service connections you'll probably know her public history as a CalMac
ferry and less acknowledged one as a potential regional seat of government.
Skye - and probably South Uist too - are rather less appealing today than
in your memories. Our fine weather has finally given way to overcast
mugginess more typical of July and, distracted by blackflies while
strimming the 5 Caroy garden, I've sustained two cleg bites. They itch like
the devil and keep me awake.
Bill
To: "'Judith Menes'" <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [Sideline]two-tier approaches (was Recommended rates
andoutsourcing overseas)
Date: Tue, 24 July 2012 16:27:31
"3 levels of index"
As it happens, last week I was faced with a request for cheap and cheerful
and that is what they got and I got my rate. I should much rather have the
job satisfaction of turning in a piece of work which is the best I can do
but if that is not what the punter wishes to pay for I do not regard it as
my problem. It is true the whole world over: you can have G4S or the Royal
Welch Fusiliers. My daughter despairs of my faith in cosmic justice but,
after 64 years, I have had occasion to observe that what goes round tends
to come round and sooner or later people realise that paying for rubbish is
paying for rubbish.
312
On the whole, however, there being a rather nice stone alcove in The Courts
Garden in Wilts, I should as sooner wish to be sitting there.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Non-English corporate names
Date: Fri, 27 July 2012 10:00:34
Romance language jurisdictions tend to place corporate form, or its
abbreviation, first which can give rise to more confusion than that including inadvertent cross-posting. So even though it is technically
incorrect, for an English reader, putting the corporate form at the end is
probably best except where it would be silly. For example, the former
Belgian airline SABENA was the initial letters of its full name in French
starting with "Societé Anonyme". It should also be remembered that such
structures are not necessarily legal personalities and may be operating
divisions of a company or part of a group of companies. At one time, and
for all I know still so, "Tarmac" was a complex family tree of some 500
distinct entities including operating subsidiaries and dormant holding
companies.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Non-English corporate names [now OT]
Date: Fri, 27 July 2012 11:07:18
And to cap Bonking Boris' remarkable tour de force of unqualified
xenophobia unheard since the days of Sir Roderick Spode ...
Frankfurt ATC to Lufthansa aircraft: "You must reply in English."
Lufthansa pilot to Frankfurt ATC: "I am a German flying a German aircraft
in German airspace. Why can I not speak German?
Unknown BA pilot on an open channel: "Because you lost the bloody War,
that's why"
Letters of protest to El Alamein House, 1966 Jutland Street ....
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Olympic order of ceremony
Date: Sat, 28 July 2012 11:29:09
Not only that but Brunel seemed to be admiring the effects of the
industrial revolution long after his too early meeting with his own maker
following the exhaustion of the SS Gurt Easun and the Cliffun Spenshun
Bridge projects.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] working from home
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 16:27:01
Refreshingly sane comments. If one cannot be at peace with oneself it is
very sad. In offices too many people have to circumnavigate with their
backs to the wall and they are usually the nicest people. Why offices bring
out the worst in people is something I may never understand. I also recall
the words of Andrew my gardener: "John, there is no reason to have anything
to do with sh*
y people." The best service my last employer did me was to sack me because,
since that time, I have never been more content and need only associate
with those whom I like and have insufficient discrimination to like me in
313
return.
Also, such as now, I can listen to choral vespers from Buckfast.
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 15:45:28
T&F have just offered me a rush job at £1.25 per page. Is this a record?
Sadly, I am too busy to take up such a lucrative offer.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] It has been such a long time .. rates again
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:21:46
As it is Friday and I am bored with arbitration rules and there is only a
repeat of The Professionals to look forward to, may I begin to establish
the basis of some fundamental laws of indexing with John's First Indexing
Theorem?
The extent of the fee varies inversely with the urgency of the demand and a
punter's capacity to whinge about it when you have done the thing.
Note: Whether the punter will pay up this side of the next Olympics is
merely an extension of this theorem.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] National Insurance etc.
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:24:43
As it happens, I have been in the position of being the guest of the
Leicester Royal Infirmary more often than is wholly reasonable. Indeed, I
think that I can, with confidence, claim that the cost of my medical
treatment exceeds my life-time NICs and probably a good deal more besides.
I had always assumed that the SSP regime applied only to employees but
should be glad to be corrected never having supposed I had a claim. To be
honest, I am just glad to be alive albeit it has been an ounce of stoicism
to a pound of misbegotten sense of the ridiculous which has chiefly kept me
going in order to benefit from the hands of the healers and the prayers of
the faithful (James 5:15).
Doctors will cheerfully provide a sick note to be presented to employers
but presenting one to myself wouldn't seem to be a lot of use. To all
intents and purposes NICs are just another form of income tax. How a
government, of what ever colour and in what ever circumstances, wrings
money out of the pockets of its citizens has always been a mixture of
cosmetics and psychology. Do you really believe that you tax your car in
order that the roads should be mended?
There are private insurance policies which cover hospital stays and
disabling injuries.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] book recommendation please [OT]
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:13:04
Some say that The Greek Myths by Robert Graves is definitive although it is
a little sprightly. Then again, I recall a cartoon in Punch at the time of
the great Lady C controversy, depicting two earnest young women, with the
caption: "Yes, but is it the kind of book you would want your mother to
314
read?" On which bombshell ...
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Trumpets
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 10:19:40
I am obliged to Meg and, after all, it's an ill wind no one blows good.
And moreover:
"If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the
battle?"
1 Cor. 15:10
-----Original Message----From: Meg Davies Sent: 17 August 2012 10:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] Trumpets
Congratulations to John Jeffries for knowing his trumpets (Radio 3 quiz
this morning)!
Meg
Meg Davies BA MTh FSocInd Indexer
Proofreader
Copyeditor
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:00:15
Subject: [SIdeline] A whiter shade of pale
It's my experience that a pdf comes in old-fashioned black and white but I
have one here where things which might be usefully set in italics appear in
a rather delightful baby pink. Trouble is that there seems no reliable way
of sure way of searching. Any hints please comrades?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] HMRC scam
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:52:38
As it happens, last year I did receive a substantial refund from HMRC
though the circumstances which caused it to arise I cannot, in all
conscience, recommend. The self-assessment form allows one to nominate a
bank account if there is a refund due and, like the true scholars and
gentlefolk they are, they stump up without being asked.
The trouble with things which sound as though they are too good to be true
is that there is bound to be someone who thinks they are true. The strike
rate need only be very low indeed to facilitate the scammers business.
There is a certain symmetry that such transactions are seasoned by the sin
of avarice on both sides.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Calling Bill Johncocks
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:59:31
I have communicated with Bill by means of the telling bone and he is aware
of the problem and may even have sorted it.
-----Original Message-----
315
From: John Silvester Sent: 21 August 2012 11:23
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Calling Bill Johncocks
Bill,
The same for me.
John Silvester On 21/08/2012 09:33, Christine Shuttleworth wrote:
> A message for Bill Johncocks: my emails to you are being bounced back.
>
> Christine
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:08:17
Subject: [SIdeline] KP Nuts
Is it just me? I have just been made an unrepeatable offer
a £1.00 per page (their "standard rate") with what appears
four working days to do it in. What is best of all is that
corporate social responsibility. At this rate I shall need
my Swiss bank account or possibly make a major donation to
Party.
of 274 pages at
to be the next
it is about
to re-activate
the Conservative
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] KP Nuts
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 12:10:20
Indeed. Who's a Pretty Polly then? I am hoping to spend my declining years
in the Scrubbs or Parkhurst - they are such a rough lot in Pentonville. All
the same, this week I have paid my window cleaner and my gardener at a
considerably higher rate that the ground nut scheme offers. May be with my
essential grasp of incompetence and the incessant generation of inane
verbiage I should have become a Cabinet minister. No, I am yet to achieve
the same state of self-satisfaction. Also I am not a millionaire. Must try
harder. Didn't I say that indexers, like horse players, all die broke?
But, as I fancy a nice piece of mouse-trap on toast for my tea, I had
better get back to indexing.
-Dr John Jeffries 8 Beech Road, Oadby LEICS LE2 5QL Tel
Txt +44(0)7748413790 Email [email protected]
+44(0)1162719007
On 24/08/2012 11:08, john jeffries wrote:
>
make a major donation to > the Conservative Party.
> Which they may (or may not) reject in 20 years' time because they think
your money was dodgy.
-*Kathleen Lyle*BSc(Hons) ELS MSocInd(Adv)*Editorial Consultant*
To: "'william jack'" <[email protected]>,
"'Alison Brown'"
<[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Authors' lists of index entries
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 10:22:46
These characteristically useful comments have bucked me up a treat. I have
316
just completed a lengthy and tedious work such as to make, "The abandoned
supermarket trollies of North America: a field guide" [there really is a
book of this title - it is listed in, "How to avoid big ships"] appear a
really spiffing yarn.
I was given no brief at all but instead, having done the work, and told
that what I should really have done is use sub-sub-headings under the
article numbers of a number of sets of rules to spawn a sort of Japanese
knotweed of an overgrown table of legislation. And, best of all, that I
could have easily found the article numbers by chasing the bar of wet soap
through the end-notes.
Chances are I'll write it off as a dead-weight loss, reserve my copyright
and neighbouring rights and leave them to please themselves. Life is too
short and I do not have the time to dance to the tunes of fools.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] fees again
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 10:05:36
As it happens, I think I may have had a call from them yesterday but put
the receiver down assuming it to be a junk call. Clearly I was right.
So far as my own last sob story is concerned, the authors now require that
I go through all the text again and carry on the pursuit through endnotes
for "enough material" [an inarticulate construct which sounds very much
like a passing reference but impossible to know because they don't say].
Having indexed already to an appropriate depth and ignoring the endnotes
because that is the publisher's policy, and finding the time remaining
which the Good Lord allows me too precious, I have told them to stick it
where the punter stuck his pole.
-----Original Message----From: william jack Sent: 05 September 2012 09:42
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SIdeline] fees again
I've just had a tempting offer from Pickering and Chatto for a four-volume
work of 1600 pages, fee £1000. No doubt the offer has been bouncing around
for some time already.
Beyond saying that I sent them off with a flea in their ear, I make no
further comment.
Bill Jack
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] fees again
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 14:06:56
In complete agreement with Caroline, this could sound like another me too.
Plain fact of the matter is that after 43 years in the
library/information/publishing racket and about 1,000 indexing commissions
later (never mind the number I turn away) I am ill-disposed to be paltered
with. Whereas it might bring another smile to the face of Jeremy Hunt, not
many people would expect a senior consultant to be paid at the rate of a
junior doctor because a junior doctor is prepared to be paid that for
gaining a bit of experience in brain surgery. And, just imagine what would
hit the fan, and in what quantity, were a bank executive expected to accept
the national minimum wage.
317
-----Original Message----From: Caroline Diepeveen Sent: 05 September 2012 13:37
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] fees again
If you really feel you have to accept a job
appalling fee because you have no other way
wrong with calling that desperate? And even
a poor business strategy to accept the job.
term solution that may get you in even more
yes, I can understand that people call this
that is paying you such an
of paying your bills, what is
in that situation I think it is
At least, it is a very short
trouble in the long run. So
a naive choice.
Caroline
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: difficult person to work with
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:37:21
Lawrence wrote:
I sometimes summarise it by saying `I know a heck of lot more about your
subject than you know about indexing'
I am still feeling bruised from having been rubbished by a hapless bunch of
twits and an editor who wouldn't back me up.
My worst experience, however, was with a Tory MP who had waxed lyrical
about England's green and pleasant land, and a land where sheep might
safely graze - which he attributed to Handel's Messiah. I could perhaps
have got way with just mentioning that it was actually a cantata by JS Bach
but permitted myself the comment that: "all we like sheep have gone astray"
[Isaiah 53:6 and movement no:26 of The Messiah]. After that he turned
vicious. Now, if they want to show themselves up as chumps, I let them. I
remain as silent as the oft-mentioned curious incident of the dog in the
night time in the Hound of the Baskervilles (give me strength) and they can
all go to blazes whether silver or not. Instead of writing books they might
be better served by reading some.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Re: Figures from the New Testament
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 15:20:00
"Would it be sufficient to say Luke (Biblical figure)?"
Seems odd to me to describe the Evangelists as Biblical figures or indeed
that remorseless correspondent St Paul. Conversely, there is also the nutty
little problem of characters in the narrative Gospels not named at all like the Roman Centurion and, the names Dives and Lazarus might be thought
figurative.
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 10:43:28
Subject: [SIdeline] NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION
Not for the first time I am baffled by a pdf. The paper text does not have
it but the file has NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION in ghostly but large and
unfriendly letters set at 45 degrees across the text.
Whilst engaged in a little gratuitous (what Bill might call name-spotting)
having chanced upon Grotius in a sentence which included "Grotius, Hobbes"
318
I searched on Grotius and got back "Grotius, DISTRIBUTION Hobbes" in the
found box. It also means that a search on "Grotius, Hobbes" gives a result
much like my bank account: nothing in it. This seems very silly.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Arabic names
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 13:50:38
If I may say respectfully, John's point is characteristically to the point.
It is hardly likely that even experts would go round with the Sheikh's full
handle in their heads supposing they ever knew it, could spell it or
transliterate it into some commonly agreed form - let alone whether the
author got it any respects right in the first place. I tend to proceed on
the assumption that both authors and readers are every bit as stupid as I
am and the best thing for the peace of mind of all concerned is to keep it
simple and only be more complicated in order to reduce the possibility of a
greater confusion.
-----Original Message----From: John Noble Sent: 08 October 2012 13:26
To: 'Sideline'
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Arabic names
I'd go for Jamal ad-Dïn al-Mïlàdï{,} Sheikh -- almost certainly he is known
as Sheikh Jamal.
Alternatively this might be possible
{al-}Miladi{,} Jamal ad-Dïn
Although this is 21st century, some Libyans may still take tribal forms
John Noble
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexers Available: levels of text
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 12:38:32
I wasn't intending to get involved, because it scarcely affects me, but
begin to feel that it is really about audiences whether intended or not. I
do not wish to appear cheaper than usual at this point but I have known
lawyers and wondered, in a few cases, whether their minds work at all.
There was one in particular, clearly a considerable intellect, of whom his
colleagues said was capable of marshalling all of the facts and following
all of the arguments ... but still always got the answer wrong. From this I
conclude that there is a difference between being clever and being right. I
have also looked at some indexes and wondered whether it was absence of
sense rather than absence of knowledge which made them so bad.
I suspect that it might be better sometimes to shake off the accretions off
indexing circumlocution and concentrate on the knitting of whether we can
construe a passage of written communication and think of ways in which
anyone who should be interested might be guided to that material. Who they
are is their own affair and what they propose to do with it their own
problem. If we have some special ways of being helpful then it is useful to
say so. All the same, the business of second-guessing is a lost cause. One
of my jobs in a previous incarnation involved collecting company annual
reports and also listing particulars (public offerings of shares) thinking
that one was useful for marketing purposes and the other as precedent
documents ... until we realised that each were useful for both. We'd had
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some long days and were getting a bit slow.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexers Available: levels of text
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 12:46:43
John N wrote:
"Do you know - I do not even have GCE O level in history. I sat the exam
and failed."
Am I the only person to have noticed that the award of a Nobel Prize
yesterday was to one who was considered too thick to become involved in
such things - according to the judgement of his school teachers?
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Indexers Available: levels of text
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:33:02
Bill wrote:
"Surely the list of levels that Ann proposed should be viewed not as a
rigid hierarchy but as useful labels, applicable by indexers and
intuitively comprehensible to our clients?"
At last I breath some fresh Hebridean air again. I don't know why all this
makes me think of the HMSO annual catalogues. For years they were done in
an ordinary commonsense way which enabled you very often to find what you
were after looking for. Then we entered that horrid phase where
librarianship could not get over itself with verbal extensions (and all
manner of other chthonic orotundity and goodness knows what else besides
which was as clear as mud to me) with a rigid adherence to complex rules
which made orthodox Judaism seem take it or leave it and free and easy. If
we cannot state with clarity what it is we do it is hardly likely to
inspire confidence in the minds of those whom we expect to pay for it.
-----Original Message----From: Bill Johncocks Sent: 11 October 2012 10:51
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SIdeline] Indexers Available: levels of text
Is Caroline asleep, or on holiday, because the empty 'me too's are piling
up in what has probably been the most unedifying debate in SIdeline's often
undistinguished history. We've read a series of airy one-line dismissals, a
few suggestions for mixing and matching categories as though we were
filling paper plates at a buffet, and many bald statements of opinion
dignified as 'arguments'.
Surely the list of levels that Ann proposed should be viewed not as a rigid
hierarchy but as useful labels, applicable by indexers and intuitively
comprehensible to our clients? Unless they are both, they'll be useless.
But we do need some way of saving authors and publishers time because
helping them to make sensible choices faster is in everyone's interest. Or
are all the medical and legal indexers really happy to be presented as one
of a randomly-ordered series of scores of names, backed by unregulated
individual claims to be 'skilful', 'painstaking', 'reliable' and 'fast'?
If they're not, then claiming 'can/can't' subject
enough. The depths of subject knowledge needed to
Darwin and a comparison of natural selection with
molecular level are obviously different. But also
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competence cannot be
index a biography of
epigenetic effects at the
there are self-evidently
two non-overlapping categories
you can expect to be told that
are not. In a book on receptor
us should be able to index the
within 'academic' treatment: in a textbook,
gene names are italicized but protein names
theory, you certainly won't be, so more of
first.
Similarly the enthusiast or hobbyist market is quite distinct from the
'general reader', as well as from the professional and the various academic
groups. I've never seen a book on mountaineering that begins by examining
the different names for shared techniques on either side of the Atlantic;
reconciles the many grading systems for technical difficulty and objective
danger and warns that the world's highest mountains tend to fall on
national boundaries and so will have at least two names. There isn't one,
yet all the readers will know, and so must the indexer. If you've got any
outside interests, you'll accept that this type of specialist literature is
vast, but it's not academic, and it's not 'general' either, while they are
few 'professional' mountaineers - certainly too few to constitute a market.
It would be wonderful if we could find audience-type categories that might
make sense across different disciplines, but we're not even trying. Some
members are dismissing the problem; others extrapolating from their subject
specialism (or lack of one) and insisting everyone else must fit in. Square
pegs are being urged into round holes. Clearly there are areas where we'll
have to fall back on individual descriptions. My maths is limited and I'd
not attempt a book where the equations take up more space than the words,
but only a sample will reveal that kind of thing. However we do know for
example that academic publishers specify multiple levels, yet some of us
are actually urging that we should deliberately not accommodate their
needs!
Laurence invokes the KISS principle but that's borrowed from the world of
persuasion, not learning. Fine for selling shampoo or running for office,
it doesn't apply to the subtle business of matching a specific task to an
appropriate skill level. As a wise man once said, for every complex
problem, you can always find a simple solution: the trouble is, it will be
wrong. In this case it will also be lazy and self-defeating.
Indexers Available is our shop-window; the medium by which we present
ourselves as a body of responsible professionals to those seeking our
services. The interface has been inadequate for many years and at
Roehampton we all voted to implement a new approach. We have a chance now
to do it right. Let's take it?
Bill
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Low rate job doing the rounds
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 12:43:41
I am reliably informed that today in anti-slavery day.
The peanut factory has just offered me a 200 page jobbie for 200 squids.
They do not even pose the Canine Fenestration Question (how much is that
doggie in the window?). It's take the dog's breakfast or leave it. Also, as
I am not a monkey, I usually respond by restating the Affirmative Musaceous
Paradox - and do not want any bananas either.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Taxonomy and indexing
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:27:36
I share Christine's puzzlement. This is not the least because I have doubts
of the relevance of taxonomies to indexing text. I am so old I can remember
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when bibliographic databases with controlled vocabularies were considered a
really neat idea and arranged terms into hierarchies of knowledge in ways
too clever for words to describe. The conclusion I reached was that one
could produce a useful bibliographic tool by applying a small number of
descriptors to a particular entity - say a journal article - in much the
same way that librarians have classified books with added entries in
addition to the main marking and parking notation. Call me eccentric but in
book indexing, however, I should have thought the name of the game was to
find language which suits the text, not to try to force the text into preexisting categories like forcing one's anatomy into a "one size fits all"
pair of hospital pyjamas. If this is another example of the exaggerated
powers the IT industry has too often claimed but seldom delivered I would
say that it is not so much that there is a future for indexers but for
people with a capacity to exercise their little grey cells. Even Lt Cdr
Data admits to an admiration of the deductive reasoning of Sherlock Holmes.
Subject: RE: [SIdeline] Alan Sugar
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:05:32
It is not unusual for a man to be given a knighthood and then a peerage.
Life peerages are baronies (Commonly with the honorific Lord). Sir Denis
Thatcher Bt was an exception because a baronetcy is hereditary but never
have membership to the House of Lords. I should suggest that, in any event
in this case, "Sugar, Alan" is quite sufficient.
-----Original Message----From: Janice Rayment Sent: 12 November 2012 15:32
To: sideline
Subject: [SIdeline] Alan Sugar
This should be easy I am sure but as I am getting in a muddle wondered if
someone has a quick (correct) answer please. I need to index Alan Sugar (of
*The Apprentice* fame). If he was made a Baron I thought <Sugar, SIr Alan,
Bt> as given in *Indexing Names. *But I'm confused as he is generally
referred to as Lord Sugar so I'm now wondering if he isn't a Baron in that
way and I should index him as <Sugar, Alan, Lord>. In the book I am
indexing he is simply Alan Sugar.
Thanks in advance, Jan
-- Janice Rayment BSc MSocInd Accredited Indexer
www.roundhouseindexing.com Telephone: 01647 252875 Mobile: 07796 520820 --
John died in Leicester General Hospital at 12:30 on Friday 30th November
2012
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Thanks to Maureen MacGlashan, a mutual friend, for drawing my attention to the following
tribute in Legal Information Management 13(1), and to Rebecca O’Rourke of Cambridge
University Press for cutting through a cumbersome process and authorising reproduction:
In Memoriam: John Jeffries
“My farther, John Jeffries, was a man who never really realised his own worth or what he’d
achieved. I think everyone here probably understands better than he did how excellent a
person he truly was” Helen Jeffries’ Eulogy at John’s funeral.
How true these words are. John was a highly-valued and hugely-influential member
of our profession for a number of years in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s but then slipped
away from the limelight and is probably little known among the present membership.
John was born in 1948. He was a gifted child who succeeded academically, even
though he came from an ordinary background. Both his parents were workers at Cadbury’s
chocolate factory. He studied at Leeds University and he worked for some years at the
University of Kent, specialising in law librarianship and running a European Documentation
Centre. He was a founder member and key personality behind the establishment of the
Association of EDC Librarians in 1981, which later became the European Information
Association, which sadly ceased existence at the end of 2012. In 1978 he published a book
entitled A Guide to the Offical Publications of the European Communities.
He later took a job in Leicester at the National Youth Bureau and then went on to
work for Wragge & Co in Birmingham. Subsequently he worked alongside me as a director
at Legal Information Resources. His final professional work was as a legal indexer working
from home for, amongst others, the IBA1, Oxford University Press and Cambridge University
Press. During this time he became an active member of the Society of Indexers.
Alongside his academic career, John maintained a rich intellectual life, with interests
ranging from information technology, as the web was first coming into being, through naval
history to literature, art and architecture. He also became involved with preserved railways,
both practically and intellectually, obtaining his PhD in the 1980s on the management of the
Kent and East Sussex Railway Company. Later in life he took pleasure in travelling,
particularly to Scotland. Recently he had found faith and was confirmed into the Church of
England.
John was a very important figure within BIALL [The British and Irish Association of
Law Librarians]. He became involved in the Association whilst at Kent. He was Chairman of
the Standing Committee on Training from 1978-1980; Treasurer from 1980-1982 and
Chairman from 1982-1986. In those days terms of office were not time limited and he put a
huge amount of work into everything he did for us2. He was later made a Life Member in
recognition of his services to the Association.
It was a pleasure to work with him. He had a great sense of humour but was also
tough; for example, he got changes to the constitution through the AGM without opposition.
He was renowned for very brief AGMs, sometimes as short as 20 minutes and he maintained
excellent discipline though all the meetings he conducted as Chair of the Association. He also
did a great deal to build up the relationship with AALL, visiting the US with a delegation of
law librarians in 1985 to further this work3.
He will be sadly missed by those who worked with him and by his family and friends
and our sympathies are extended to his daughter, Helen.
Christine Miskin
Footnotes
1 The last Edition of the Journal of Energy and Natural Resources Law contained the
following paragraph: “The IBA editorial team and I dedicate this final issue of JERL
volume 30 to Dr John Jeffries, the publication’s longstanding indexer who sadly
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passed away November 2012. Always committed to the journal, John was a a pleasure
to work with and will be very fondly remembered”. Don C Smith, Editor, Journal of
Energy and Natural Resources Law University of Denver, Sturm College of Law, US
2 For an appreciation of John’s work, written by Wallace Breem, see: John Jeffries –
retiring Chairman. 1986 Law Librarian 17(2) p.74
3 For a report of the visit see: Howes, Robert. American Association of Law Libraries.
1985 Law Librarian 16(3) p. 121
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