EngagingEasternShore
CommunitiesinProtectionof
theSaltMarshesofBlackwater
NationalWildlifeRefuge
Interviews with stakeholders from academic, non‐profit, business and faith groups conducted for Pickering Creek Audubon Center 0
June2015
Reportauthor:
KarenAkerlof,PhD
CenterforClimateChangeCommunication,GeorgeMasonUniversity
ThisreportwasfundedthroughagrantfromtheTownCreekFoundationofEaston,
MarylandtoAudubonforthesupportofPickeringCreekAudubonCenter’ssaltmarsh
communityengagementproject,“SaltMarshStories.”
PhotoofBlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefugecourtesyofK.Akerlof
1 Executive Summary PickeringCreekAudubonCentermaintainsalonghistoryofprovidingsuccessful
environmentaleducationprogrammingonMaryland’sEasternShore.Thegoalofthe“Salt
MarshStories”programistobuildonthatfoundationalexpertise,expandingtonewadult
audiencesinTalbotandDorchestercountieswithcontentthatservestonotonlyinform
participantsabouttheecologicalroleofthesaltmarshes,butspurheightenedcommunity
discourseandadvocacyonbehalfoftheirpreservation.InSpring2015,GeorgeMason
University’sCenterforClimateChangeCommunicationconductedasetofstakeholder
interviewswithindividualsrepresentingfourareasofinterestfortheprogram:business
andfaithcommunities,highereducation,andregionalAudubonchapters.Thefindingsand
recommendationsfromthestudyaredetailedbelow.
Characterization of the social and ecological communities
 Waterwasfrequentlyidentifiedbyrespondentsasthemostcharacteristicaspectsof
natureinthesecommunities,aswellasmarsh,treesandopenfields.Peoplealso
pointedoutthatthesenaturalaspectshadchangedovertime.  Respondentspointedtotensionsinthecommunities,andontheEasternShore
generally,thatfurthercomplicatedthesechangesintherelationshipbetween
communitiesandnaturalresources:tensionsbetweengenerations;between
farmersandwatermen;betweenenvironmentalgroupsandindustry,especially
poultry;betweennewresidentsandlongtimeinhabitants;andbetweenracial
groups. Pickering Creek Audubon Center’s role in the community  PickeringCreekissupportedbythestakeholdersinterviewedforthisstudyin
exploringabroaderroleinthelocalcommunity,butthereisalsorecognitionof
complexnatureofthechallenge.Possiblebarriersincluded:thereluctanceoflocal
policymakerstoaddresstheissues;thepossibilityforcommunityresistanceto
changesinlandusebroughtuponbythemigrationofthesaltmarshes;and
Audubon’sframingoftheissueasoneofclimatechangeandhabitatconservation
versuscommunityresilienceandadaptation.
Opportunities for community engagement—and challenges  Otherorganizationshavealreadyexploredmodelsforconductingwetlands
adaptationwithincommunitiesthatcouldbeinstructiveinpreservingBlackwater’s
saltmarshes:acommunityofadaptationpractice;andconversationswithSmithand
Dealislandresidents.  Citedchallengesincommunityengagementincludedthewidepoliticizationof
environmentalissuesandthescaleoftheproblemwhichrendersanyone
individual’sactionsseeminglyinsignificant. 1
Communication and attitudes about the salt marshes, sea‐level rise and climate change  Respondentssaidtheybelievedthateffectsofchangesonthewater—floodingand
sea‐levelrise—weremorelikelytobediscussedthanclimatechangeorthe
marshes.
 Wetlandsstillhaveapublicrelationsproblemnotedinterviewees—as“mucky,
mosquito‐infected”areas.
Recommendations  Developamulti‐yearcommunicationplanthatdetailstherolethatPickeringCreek
choosestotakeinthecommunityanditsimplementation—whetheritistocontinue
largelyprovidingenvironmentaleducation,orwhetheritistopresentinformation
toinformlocaldecision‐makingaboutpolicies.
 Considerthefullarrayofpossiblyinfluentialaudiencesinlocalcommunities,
especiallycivicleaders,andwhatcontributionstheymightmaketothewider
discourse.
 Evaluatewhethertherearedifferencesintheneedsandperspectivesofthenew
targetaudiencestothesaltmarshes,andhowthosemightbeaddressedin
recruitment,presentationcontent,andexperientialevents.
2 Background Forthelastfouryears,PickeringCreekAudubonCenterhaspartneredwithAudubon
Maryland‐DC,BlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefuge,andTheConservationFundtoconduct
communityoutreachandeducationinconjunctionwiththeirresearchandimplementation
ofadaptationstrategiesforsaltmarshecosystemsincombattingtheeffectsofsea‐level
rise.PickeringCreekhasalongsuccessfulhistoryofprovidingenvironmentaleducation
programming,especiallyforelementaryschoolstudents.“SaltMarshStories”seekstobuild
onthatexpertise,expandingtonewadultaudiencesinTalbotandDorchestercountieswith
contentthatservestonotonlyinformparticipantsabouttheecologicalroleofthesalt
marshes,butspurheightenedcommunitydiscourseandadvocacyonbehalfoftheir
preservation.TheculminationoftheseactivitieswillbeasaltmarshforuminDorchester
Countyin2016thatengagescivicleadersfromallwalksoflife,includingthebusiness
communityandfaithorganizations.
Blackwater National Wildlife Refuge and Dorchester County
DorchesterCountysitsalong1,500scenicmilesofChesapeakeBayshorelineboundedby
theChoptankRivertothenorthandtheNanticokeRivertothesouth.Wetlandsriddlethe
interior,comprisingnearlyhalfofthecountyandincludingthesaltmarshesofBlackwater
NationalWildlifeRefuge.1Thetidalmarsheswithinthisregionaresomeofthemost
extensiveintheUnitedStatesandrepresentcriticalwildlifehabitat,particularlyforbirds.
Inthepastcentury,thousandsofacresofmarshhaveconvertedtoopenwaterdueto
destructionfrominvasivespeciesandrelativesea‐levelrise.
Thecountyfaceseconomicchallengesaswellasthreatstoitsnaturalecosystems.The
primaryindustriesinthecountyaremanufacturing,services,tourism,and
agriculture/aquaculture.2Asof2013,morethan700businessescalledDorchesterhome,
butonly16ofthemwith100workersormore.3Atjustover$46,000,medianhousehold
incomesforthecountyarelessthantwo‐thirdsofthatofthestateasawhole.4Thecounty
hasoneofthehighestunemploymentratesinMaryland(8.5%),comparabletotheCityof
Baltimore(8.7%)3;lessthan20%ofresidentshaveabachelor’sdegree;and16.5%live
underthepovertylevel.4Bywayofcomparison,TalbotCounty,whilejustnorthof
DorchesterCounty,hasmedianincomesthataremorethanathirdhigher,and
unemploymentratesthatare2.9percentagepointslower.
Establishedinthe1600s,DorchesterandTalbotCountieswereoneoftheearliestsettled
areasbycolonistsinMaryland.Theymaintainrichhistories,famouslychronicledinJames
1
Lerner, J.A., Curson, D.R., Whitbeck, M. and Meyers, E.J. 2013. Blackwater 2100: A strategy for salt marsh persistence in an era of climate change. The Conservation Fund (Arlington, VA) and Audubon MD‐DC (Baltimore, MD). 2
Maryland Dept. of Business and Economic Development. ND. Brief economic facts: Dorchester County, Maryland. Available at http://business.maryland.gov/Documents/ResearchDocument/DorchesterBef.pdf 3
Maryland Dept. of Business and Economic Development. 2015. Maryland Data Explorer. Available at http://business.maryland.gov/about/rankings‐and‐statistics/data‐explorer 4
U.S. Census Bureau. 2015, Apr. 22. QuickFacts, Dorchester County, Maryland. Available at http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/24/24019.html 3 Michener’snovel“Chesapeake.”ThesehistoriesincludepivotalfiguresandeventsinU.S.
anti‐slaveryandCivilRightsmovements,includingasthebirthplaceofHarrietTubman,
siteoftheUndergroundRailroad,andCivilRightsdemonstrationsinthe1960s.Abouta
thirdofresidentsinDorchesterarefromcommunitiesofcolor,oneofthehighestrates
alongtheEasternShore,onparwithWicomicoCounty(33%)andsomewhatlowerthan
Somerset(48%).5
Public opinion on sea‐level rise and climate change in the Eastern Shore
RoughlyathirdofMarylandersinthecountiesalongtheEasternShore—fromKentto
WicomicoandWorcester—saythattheyareveryorextremelysureclimatechangeis
happening(32%),asimilarpercentageareveryorextremelysuresea‐levelriseis
happeningalongMaryland’scoastlines(37%).6EasternShoreresidentsarelesscertain
thatclimatechangeishappeningthantherestofthestate(45%very/extremelysure),but
theyaremorecertainthatsea‐levelriseishappeningthanotherMarylanders(18%
very/extremelysure).
Outreach program
PickeringCreekAudubonCenter’sSaltMarshStoriesprogramconsistsofthree
components:1)aneducationalpresentationdeliveredtoaudiencesattheirlocation;2)
toursofthenationalwildliferefugetolearnaboutitsimportanceaspartoftheAtlantic
Flywayforcriticalbirdhabitat;and3)restorationofsaltmarshbyvolunteerreplantingof
grassplugsinareasthathaveexperiencedecologicaldeterioration.Organizationsmay
choosetoparticipateinoneormoreoftheactivities.TheexcursionstoBlackwater
NationalWildlifeRefugeoftenbringtogethergroupsofdifferentagesandinterests,suchas
Audubonchaptermembersandundergraduatestudentsfromlocaluniversities.
Research role
GeorgeMasonUniversity’sCenterforClimateChangeCommunicationwasaskedtoassist
insupportingandassessingPickeringCreek’seffortsin2014‐2015withaudienceresearch.
Thestudyincludesasetofstakeholderinterviewscapturedinthisreport,abaseline
survey,andfollow‐upsurveyswithparticipantsoftheBlackwaterexcursion.The
stakeholderinterviewspresentedinthisreportrepresentfouraudiencesofinterest:
businessandfaithcommunities,highereducation,andregionalAudubonchapters.
Interviews
TheobjectiveoftheinterviewsistofurtherprogramdevelopmentofSaltMarshStoriesby
providinginformationabouttheenvironmentalperceptions,mentalmodels,interests,and
5
Maryland State Data Center. 2011. Census: Census 2010 Redistricting (Public Law 94‐171) Data. Minority population share for Maryland’s jurisdictions, 2010. Available at http://planning.maryland.gov/msdc/census/cen2010/PL94‐171/map/MinShare10.pdf
6
Akerlof, K., Maibach, E. W., & Boules, C. 2014. Public perceptions of climate change: A Maryland statewide survey, fall 2014. Fairfax, VA: Center for Climate Change Communication, George Mason University.; Akerlof, K., & Maibach, E. W. 2014. Adapting to climate change & sea level rise: A Maryland statewide survey, fall 2014. Fairfax, VA: Center for Climate Change Communication, George Mason University. Available at climatemaryland.org.
4 socialnetworksofindividualsrepresentativeofthefourfocalaudiences.PickeringCreek
hassubstantialconnectionswithinstitutionsofhighereducationthatdeliver
environmentalsciencecurriculaandthenetworkofregionalAudubonchapters.These
audiencesarethetraditionalaudiencesforPickeringCreek’sSaltMarshStoriesprograms.
In2015,PickeringCreekalsoincreasedoutreachtothebusinessandfaithcommunitiesof
TalbotandDorchestercounties.
Methodology InSpring2015,theauthorinterviewedeightindividualsrecruitedfromalistof15
presentedascurrent,orpotential,stakeholdersbyPickeringCreekAudubonCenter.The
distributionoftheintervieweesacrossthefouraudiencesofinterest,andBlackwater
NationalWildlifeRefuge,isasfollows:
 1‐businesscommunity
 1‐faithcommunity
 2‐highereducation
 3‐regionalAudubonchapters
 1‐BlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefuge
Halfoftheintervieweeswerefemale;onewasfromacommunityofcolor.Thedistribution
ofinterviewsubjectsisheavilyweightedtowardPickeringCreekAudubonCenter’s
traditionalaudiencesfortheirenvironmentaleducationprograms;thisisalimitationof
thisstudy.However,itwasdeemedmoreeffectiveforPickeringCreektoconductfurther
outreachwiththeseaudiencesasacomponentoftheirheightenedrecruitmentcampaign
withthesegroupsinsteadofwideningthestudy.
Theinterviewswereconductedbothbytelephoneandin‐personatconvenientsitesforthe
respondents.Allinterviewswereaudiorecordedandtranscribed.Theinterviewsranged
from34to60minutes,averaging51minutes;theyweresemi‐structured,basedonascript,
butvarieddependingontheareasofexpertiseoftherespondents(seeinstrumentin
appendix).Theinterviewscoveredfiveprimarytopicsand14subtopics(Table1).Thetext
wasexcerptedbythe14subtopicsandthenevaluatedforthemesandrelevantinformation.
Duetothesmallsamplesize,extrapolationbeyondtheseinterviewees’statementstowider
audiencesisnotadvised.However,theperspectivesoftheseindividualsareofsignificance,
eveniftheyarenotbroadlyrepresentative,becauseofthesestakeholders’relationships
withPickeringCreekandthusimportancetotheSaltMarshStoriesprogram.
5 Table1—Interviewtopicsandcodingofsubtopicswithintranscriptexcerpts
Topic
Descriptionofcommunityandnatural
resources
Subtopics
 Communitydescription
 Respondentinformation
 Salientnature
PickeringCreekAudubonCenter’s
 CharacterizationofPickeringCreek
communityrole
 RelationshipwithPickeringCreek
 Blackwatertripexperiences
Barriersandopportunitiesforcommunity
 Respondentcommunity
engagement
involvement
 Fundingandpolitics
 Modelsforcommunityengagement
Influentialpeopleandorganizations
 Connectedcommunitymembers
 Communityleaders
Communicationandattitudesaboutsalt
 Saltmarshes
marshes,sea‐levelrise,andclimatechange
 Sea‐levelrise
 Climatechange
ThestudywasdeterminedtobeexemptbytheInstitutionalReviewBoardforGeorge
MasonUniversity(Protocol#707694‐1).Theintervieweeswereassuredthattheir
commentswouldremainanonymous.Forthatreason,noidentifyinginformationis
provided. Findings Notablethemesandrespondentstatementsfromacrosseachoftheprimarytopicareasare
detailedinthefivesubsectionsbelow.Thesearefollowedbyasetofcommunication
recommendationsbasedonthestudyfindings. Description of “community” and natural resource interests
ParticipantsintheSaltMarshStoriesprogramarefromgeographicallydisparateareas—
theyliveinareasreachingfromthenorthernsuburbsofBaltimoretoSalisburyinthe
southernreachesofMaryland’sEasternShore.HalfoftheintervieweesreferredtoTalbot
andDorchestercountiesastheircommunitiesofreference;halfidentifiedwitheither
largercommunities(theEasternShore)ornon‐geographiccommunitiesofsharedinterest
(Audubon).RespondentsassociatedwithAudubonchapterssaidthattheydidnotknow
thelocalcommunitiesaroundBlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefugewell,andbelievedthat
improvingconnectionswithlocalresidentsandcivicleadersshouldbeapriorityfor
PickeringCreek.
6 ThosewhoreportedknowingthecommunitiesofDorchesterandTalbotdescribedthemas
ruralwithanemphasisontheirheritageoffarmingandfishing,butwithsizeable
differencesintheirresidentsandeconomics:
Bothcommunitiesaregreatsmalltowns.They’rebothrural.They’rebothvery
orientedonthewaterandhaveverymuchanagriculturalwatermenwayoflife.
TalbotCountyisgainingaverylargepercentageofretireesthatareeducatedwhoare
comingoutheretotheirsecondhomesthattheyhadbefore—nowthey’reretiring
here.DorchesterCountyhassomeofthatbutnotpredominantly.DorchesterCountyis
muchlowereconomically.Ithasalotmoreunemployment,alotmoreSection8
housing.
Waterwasfrequentlyidentifiedbyrespondentsasthemostcharacteristicaspectsof
natureinthesecommunities,aswellasmarsh,treesandopenfields.Peoplealsopointed
outthatthesenaturalaspectshadchangedovertime.Asonerespondentsaidof
BlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefuge,“WhenIwasgrowingup…therewasn’taBlackWater
Lake,itwasallmarsh.”Anotherrespondentdiscussedthewaysinwhichthemovementof
themarshandwatersincreasinglythreatenedtheircommunity.Declinesinwaterquality
werealsomentionedbyinterviewees(“witheachnewhousingdevelopment,Iseeour
waterqualitygodown”).Moreover,respondentsdiscussedchangesintherelationship
betweencommunitiesandnaturalresourcesbroughtuponbyenvironmentalchanges,
economicforces,andculturalshifts.





Decreasedpublicaccesstowaterfrontwasbroughtupbytworespondents;onewho
saidthatshehadfondmemoriesofswimmingintheBay,butthattheshoreline
accesspointwasnowonprivateland.
[Ourchildren,theoffspring]theyknownowtheycan'tgetbyjustbeinga
waterman.Theycan'tgetbywithjustfarming,theyhavetohaveanotherincome
sourceorbackupiftheywanttohaveaproductivelifeandhave,youknow,thethings
theywantintheirfamily.
Rightnow,atleastintheeasternarea,Iseealotofplaces,they'recuttingdown
theirtreesbecausetheycanget$8,000andthey'retoldit'llcomeback.Iwasn’t
seeingthatwhenIfirstcame.Ithinktimesareharder.Peoplearelookingtobemore
creativewithwaystogainincome.
Ithinknationallytherehasbeenadeclineinhuntingregistrations.Inacommunity
likeTalbotandDorchesterCountythatdeclinehasprobablybeenless,butIwouldn’t
besurprisedifthetrendisalsopresent.
WhenIwasgrowingup,therewerealotofpeopleinmyhighschoolandcollegewho,
youknow,backpackedalot,bicycledtouredalot.Butnow,it'slike,Idon’tknowany
kidwhobicycletours.…it'sjustnotmuchapartoftheculture.Iblamecomputers.
7 Anumberofrespondentspointedtotensionsinthecommunities,andontheEasternShore
generally,thatfurthercomplicatedthesechangesintherelationshipbetweencommunities
andnaturalresources:tensionsbetweengenerations;betweenfarmersandwatermen;
betweenenvironmentalgroupsandindustry,especiallypoultry;betweennewresidents
andlongtimeinhabitants;andbetweenracialgroups.




Andfarmersandwatermen,Ilookatthemallasfarmers,butfarmersandwatermen
havehistoricallynot[gotten]alongthatgreat.Andthisnutrientmanagementof
theChesapeakeBayWatershed…therewasalotofpushback.It’syourfaultthatour
ChesapeakeBayishalfdead.No,it’syourfault.No,you'retakingtoomuchfoodoutof
thewater.No,you'rehavingtoomuchrunoffonyourfarmland.
Ithinkthat,youknow,it'sstillverymuchseenasenvironmentalversusagriculture
andindustry.Andtome,thatseemssoarchaic,youknow,thatidea.Ifeelinalotof
ways,theEasternShore,it'sabout10or20yearsbehindthetimesintermsofcultural
perceptions….
We'rehavingamajorinfluence,influxofhumans,thatarelivinghereintheDelmarva
PeninsulaandworkinginDC,Baltimore,andsometimesfartherawaythanthat.So,
we’reseeinganinfluxofhumanpopulation.Letmetellyou,thepeoplefromhere
donotlikeit.
TheAfricanAmericanguysthatIgottoknow,theywouldalltalkabouthowovertly
andsortofnotsosubtlyracistitstillwas…
Thecommentsofintervieweesportraycommunities,especiallythatofDorchesterCounty,
thatarestrugglingtoovercomeenormouschangesintheirculture,economy,and
relationshipwiththeirnaturalresources.Oneintervieweesaidthatshebelievedthat
DorchesterCountywasonaneconomicupswing,yethighlevelsofunemploymentand
povertyintheareasclosesttoBlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefugewilllikelylimitthe
adaptivecapacityofitsresidentsandtheirabilitytomarshalresourcesandpoliticalwillfor
protectionoftheircommunitiesandthesaltmarshesfromtheeffectsofsea‐levelriseand
climatechange.Pre‐existingcommunitytensionsmayfurthercomplicatetheseprocesses.
Pickering Creek Audubon Center’s community role IntervieweeswereaskedabouttheroleofPickeringCreekAudubonCenterinthe
community:whattheirrelationshipwaswithPickeringCreek;whattheythoughtthatthe
naturecenterdidparticularlywellinthecommunity;andwhatitcouldcontributebeyond
itscurrentoutreachandeducationprograms.Whileallintervieweesappreciatedthe
programsthatPickeringCreekprovides,theyandtheiraffiliatedorganizationseach
perceivedthemthroughslightlydifferentlensesbasedontheneedsoftheiraffiliated
organization.Forexample,representativesofenvironmentalscienceandstudiesprograms
8 inhighereducationinstitutionssaidthattheyvaluedthefieldtripsasexperientiallearning
opportunitiesthataugmenttheirundergraduatecurricula.
PickeringCreekhasgivenmeaplatformtoexpounduponwithlearning,
especiallyenvironmentalsciencelearning.Youcanteachitinaclassroomorinalab
insideabuildingtillthecowscomehomebutifyoudon’ttakeinterestandyoudon’t
getthemoutintheecologyofnature,they'renotgoingtomakethisconnection.
RespondentsnotedthatPickeringCreek’sstrengthswereinenvironmentaleducation,
particularlywithstudentsatlocalschools,butthatitsfocusinrecentyearshadbeen
expandingtoincludeabroaderroleinthecommunityinaddressingclimatechangeand
habitatconservation.


Idoknowasfarastheirofferingsthattheyhaveatonofschoolgroupscoming
through.Theyhaveincrediblephysicalsetup,youknow.Andwhatthey’redoingwith
whattheyhave:creatingmarshlandsandhavingcurrentretiredprofessorsdoing
researchthereandhavingkidsattachedtothat.Ithinkjusttryingtoeducate
everybody,thewholepublicnotjustpublicschools,aboutenvironmentalissues
andthevalueofnaturalsystems...Andmysenseisthey’redoingagreatjobwithit.
AndIthinkthattheroleofPickeringCreekisstillinmanywaysbasedineducationbut
itiseducationthatbringsanunderstandingoftheissuesaffectingbirdsandleadsto
actiononpartoftheparticipants.Itleadsthemtotakeaction,whetherthatis
participatinginahabitatrestorationeffortinBlackwater,orbuildingabackyard
schoolhabitat,orplantingnativeplantsintheirownbackyard.So,Ithinkitsroleis
bringingthecommunityuptospeedontheissuesthatarefacingusandare
facingbirds.
InterestsineducationaboutBlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefugeanditsendemicand
migratorybirdspeciesextendedtoadultaudiencesbeyondtheEasternShore.Indeed,a
chaptermembernotedthatsomeofthestrongestinterestintheseprogramscomesfrom
peopleonthewesternshoreoftheBay;afewnotedthattheyenjoyedthe
multigenerationalaspectsofthegrassplantingsalongsideundergraduatestudentsand
representativesofU.S.Fish&WildlifeServiceandPickeringCreek.
OtherrespondentswithconnectionstohabitatconservationeffortsatBlackwaterNational
WildlifeRefugesuggestedthatPickeringCreekneededtopushfurthertowardactivities
thatsupportedpublicandlocalgovernmentalengagementonsea‐levelriseadaptation,but
alsorecognizedthedifficultiesindoingso.Thesechallengesincluded:

thereluctanceoflocalpolicymakerstoaddresstheissues;
9 ElectedofficialsinplaceslikeDorchesterCountyarereallyscaredofthisissueand
it'snotjustforkindofpartisanpoliticalreasons,butit'sbecause,Ithinkwhenthey
signuptobeontheCountyCouncilforsomeonelikeDorchester,they’rethinking
aboutfirestationsandschools...They'renotthinkingaboutbeinggroundzero
foroneofthebiggestenvironmentalproblemsofthecentury.Andwhenthey
seethatit'slike,Imean,Ican’tblamethem,theyjustputtheirhandsovertheir
eyesandsay,Idon'tthinkI’mreadyforthis.…they'vebeenveryreluctanttoreally
embraceit.Ithinkforthisreason,ofbeingoverwhelmedbythescaleofitandnot
reallyknowingwhattodo.


thepotentiallyfraughtnatureofsomeofthesepublicconversationsduetosome
ofthetensionsbetweendifferentgroupsinthecommunities;
OnerespondentcommentedthatwhilePickeringCreekservedasalinktothe
localcommunityforU.S.Fish&WildlifeService,theywerealsosensitivetothe
diversityoflocalaudiencesandcarefulnottodisruptthoserelationships.
thepossibilityforcommunityresistancetochangesinlandusebroughtuponby
themigrationofthesaltmarshes;
…wehaven’tyetdevelopedthekindofrelationshipwithlocalpeopleintermsof
sealevelrisestrategy.…Soyouknow,foralotofpeopleitmightlooklikesome
kindoflandgrabgoingon.And,becausethesekindofconservationprojectsgo
onanywayandit'sjustacaseoftryingtokindofredirectthemintotheseareas,it
hasn’tbeenasuperhighprioritytoinformthepublicofthisparticulardamageof
whatwe’redoing.…Youknow,wedefinitelykindoffearalittlebitofabacklash,
thatwithouttherightkindofprimingandeducationandoutreach,reactioncould
benegative.

Audubon’sframingoftheissueasoneofclimatechangeandhabitat
conservationversuscommunityresilienceandadaptation;
Auduboncan’tbetwo‐faced.Youknow,wecan’tcomeinandsayyeah,wereally
careaboutroadsfloodingandwearenotinterestedinclimatechange.

theneedtorecognizewhenotherorganizationsmightserveasmoreeffective
messengers.
ItmaybethatAudubonisn’ttherightpeopletobeinterfacingdirectlywith
thosecommunities….Anditmightbethatit'sactuallyalocallandtrustoryou
know,somegroupthat'smorefirmlyembeddedinthelocalscenethatthat
promotesthekindofactionsthatareneeded,youknow.
10 Inthelastfewyears,PickeringCreekhasbeguntotransitionfromprovidingtraditional
environmentaleducationprogramstoexploringabroaderroleinthelocalcommunitywith
audiencesthathaveuntilnowplayedalimitedroleinhabitatconservation.PickeringCreek
issupportedbythestakeholdersinterviewedforthisstudyindoingso,butthereisalso
recognitionofcomplexnatureofthechallenge.ThetraditionalaudiencesfortheSaltMarsh
Storiesprogram—universitiesandAudubongroups—seeclearbenefitstotheir
participation,butinmanycaseshavelittletonoconnectionwiththeimmediate
communityaroundBlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefugethatisnowoneoftheprogram’s
mostimportanttargetaudiences.Newprogramaudiences—localbusinessandfaith
groups—arenotwellrepresentedinthisstudy,butthoseindividualswhowere
intervieweddemonstratedinterestandsupportforPickeringCreek’sprograms,buthad
lessfamiliaritywiththemandwerelessabletodrawconnectionsbetweentheprogram
andtheorganizationswithwhichtheywereaffiliated.Oneintervieweenotedthat
encouragementofemployeevolunteerismwaslimitedamongDorchesterbusinesses,and
followedtheeconomy.
Wedohaveacoupleoforganizations,thelargeronesthataregoodaboutlettingtheir
employeesvolunteerandtryingtogettheiremployeestovolunteer.Someofthemused
tobebetter.Andthenwhenemployees,theyhadtodosomecutbacks,and
employeeshadmorethings,theemployeesstoppedbeingquiteasinvolved.
Opportunities for community engagement—and challenges IntervieweespointedtoanumberofprospectsforbroadeningengagementinDorchester
andTalbotcommunities,andsomechallenges.Otherorganizationshavealreadyexplored
modelsforconductingwetlandsadaptationwithincommunitiesthatcouldbeinstructivein
preservingBlackwater’ssaltmarshes.SkipStyles’WetlandsWatchinVirginiahasuseda
communityofadaptationpracticemodeltobringgroupstogetherandincreasetheir
combinedeffectiveness;U.S.Fish&WildlifeServicehasworkedwithSmithIslandto
stabilizetheshorelineofMartinNationalWildlifeRefuge;andtheDealIslandMarsh&
CommunityProjecthasbeenunderwaysince2013withleadershipfromtheUniversityof
MarylandandtheChesapeakeBayNationalEstuarineResearchReserve.Generally
respondentssuggestedincreasingprogramsthatappealto,andareeasilyattendedby,
adults,suchasschedulingmoresessionsonweekendsandinpopulatedareasofthe
counties.Othersuggestionsincludedwideningthetopicstoincludeavarietyof
environmentalissues,suchasrenewableenergy.
Communicationreachwasbroughtupbyafewintervieweeswhosuggestedusingavailable
mediawithsufficientfrequencytoincreasetheawarenessofpeoplewithPickeringCreek’s
programssuchasinTheWashingtonPost,TheStarDemocrat,andnumberofmonthly
publicationsinadditiontotheemaillistservsofpartnerorganizations.IfPickeringCreek
11 hasn’talreadyfoundasubstantialbaseofvolunteersandfinancialsupportfromamongthe
retireecommunityinTalbotCounty,oneorganizationalleadersuggestedaconcertedeffort
torecruitthoseindividualsduetotheirtime,talent,andresources.Whilerespondents
recognizedthedifficultyingettingpeopletogivetheirtimetociviccausesandassume
localleadershiproles,atleastonepersonsaidtheythoughtthatthosewhowantedto
participatecould:“Whetherit’sbecausetheywanttobecomeCommissionerortheywant
tobemoreactiveontheschoolboardortheywanttovolunteer,Idon’tknowanybodywho
hasnotbeenabletoifthey'vereallysetthemselvesto….Now,asfaraspeoplerecognizing
thatopportunitiesexist,thatmightbeadifficultyfactor.”
Theotherfactorsmentionedwerethewidepoliticizationofenvironmentalissuesandthe
scaleoftheproblemwhichrendersanyoneindividual’sactionsseeminglyinsignificant.
Ithinkit'stheissue.Ithinkit'sthefactthat,um,unfortunately,especiallyclimate
change,butenvironmentalissuesingeneralhavebecomepoliticized.Theykindof
wentoffthetracksdecadesagoandwenevergotbacktotalkingaboutthem
scientifically.Ithinkthatalotoftheenvironmentalproblemsaresobiganddiffused
thatyouendupfeelinghelpless.Youcan’tdoanythingaboutit.Likeasateacher,it’s
alwaysachallengetofindsomethingyoucandoaboutglobalwarming,youknow.
AnumberofcollaborationsinMarylandandacrossotherstates,includingsomeinwhich
Audubonisapartner,arealreadyconductingcommunityoutreachtoprotectmarshesfrom
theeffectsofsea‐levelrise.Someaspectsofthesemodelsmaybesuitableforuseby
PickeringCreek—suchasacommunityofadaptationpractice—whileothersmayoffer
lessonsthatareinstructive.Allsuccessfulcommunicationeffortsdependonsufficient
messagereachandfrequency.IfPickeringCreekhasnotfullyutilizedavailablemediaand
volunteeropportunitiesintheregion,itmaybehooveittoexplorethosemorethoroughly
astheprogramdevelops.
Influential people and organizations Duringthecourseoftheinterviews,alistof36individualsandorganizationswas
generatedbasedonrespondentsperceptionsofthosepeoplewhowerehighlyconnected
and/orwereinleadershippositionsthatwouldmakethempotentiallyhelpfulpartnersin
affectingchangesinthecommunityonbehalfofsaltmarshconservation(seeAppendixA
forthecompletelist).Thelistrangesfromlocalgovernmentleaderstofarmersandfaith
leaders.Whenintervieweeswereaskedwhowouldhavetobeinvolvedtocreatechange,
localpolicymakers,suchasthemayorofCambridge,wereoftenatthetopofthelist,evenif
specificnameswerenotalwaysmentioned.
12 Communication and attitudes about the salt marshes, sea‐level rise and climate change Intervieweesperceptionswerethatclimatechangedenialismishigherinthecommunities
aroundBlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefuge,andtheEasternShoregenerally,butthat
thoseresidentswithconnectionstothenaturalresources—people’swhoselivelihoods
dependedonthelandandwater—wereveryawareofchangestothesaltmarshesandsea
levels.
Ithinkmostpeoplearoundhereareskeptical.Youhavethosethataresure,thosethat
are,youknow,onewayortheother.Ithinkpeoplearestartingtobelieveit'sprobably
true.…Ithinkpeoplearemoreapttobelievethatsealevelriseinthisareathan
climatechange.Andthat'sabigthing.Waterqualityissuesarebig,huge
conversationhere.
Thesameintervieweesaidthatthewaterisaconstantcommunitydiscussiontopic,butnot
thesaltmarshes.Othersalludedtothepublicrelationsproblemthatwetlands—aka
swamps—stillhavewiththegeneralpublic:theirperceptionas“mucky,mosquito‐
infected”areas.Respondentssaidtheybelievedthateffectsofchangesonthewater—
floodingandsea‐levelrise—weremorelikelytobediscussedthanclimatechangeorthe
marshes.
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Thewaterquality,thewatersareeverydayconversation.Thehealthof
thewater,thevibrancyofthewater,theboatsbeingabletoworkthe
water.Butyeahthat'saneverydayconversation.Butnotmarshinparticular.
Marshescomeupwhenwe’retalkingaboutBlackwaterorPickeringCreekbut,
youknow,butmarshesarenotapartoftheeverydayconversation.
Ithinkthatinthosereallysmallcommunitiesit'saprettybigtopicof
discussionintermsofflooding.Idon'tthinktheytalkaboutclimatechange.I
don'tthinktheyevencallitsealevelrise.Ithinktheycallitfloodingand…I
thinkthereallynoticethatwithsuccessivestormsthefloodwaterscome
higher.Andthatlawnsareconvertingtomarshgrasses,eventhoughtheystill
mowthem.
Theyweretalkingabouttheerosionandthisotheroldwatermansaid,yeah,
“It'sallbecauseofthesealevelrise,youknow,aslowasthetidesarenow,
they'rehigherthanthey'veeverbeen…”Andtheseguysaresomeofthemost
politicallyconservativeguysaround.
Itshouldbenotedthatnoneoftherespondentswerewatermen,orfarmers,whoare
economicallytiedtothehealthoftheresources;oneoftheintervieweeslivedinanarea
adjacenttothemarshes,hadexperiencedthedirecteffectsoftheirmigration,andwas
involvedincommunitydecision‐makingtoaddresstheproblemsitwascausingfortheir
13 homesandwayoflife.Herfocuswasonhercommunity’sprotection—whatwouldpeople
needtodotokeepthemarshesandwateratbay?Thismaysuggestfuturedifferences
betweenaudiencesintheframingofsaltmarshmigrationbythosewithinterestsinhabitat
protectionandthosewithinterestsincommunityprotectionfromflooding.
Communicationabouttheeffectsofsea‐levelriseonsaltmarsheswiththelocalcommunity
isinitsearlystages,notedacouplerespondents,butthatthewindowofopportunitywas
relativelysmallandcomplicatedbypoliticalpolarizationoverclimatechange.
Soitseemsthatinthenext15years,upuntilabout2030,we'renotgoingtoseeany
majorchanges,butpeopleseemtoagreethataroundthe2040siswhenwe're
goingtostarttoseecatastrophicmarshloss.Thisisverylikelyalonglinear
processwheremajorstormsjustwipeoutincreasinglylargeareasofmarshand
adjacentforests.AndIthinkthatwe'regoingtoseebig,biglossesbythen.I'msure
we'llgetsomeprettymajorstormsinthosefirst15years,andeachtimewegetoneof
thosewe'llfindpeoplemorewillingtolistenthatthere'saneedtoact.
Furthermore,theserespondentsvoicedconcernthatlocalcommunities,especially
individuallandowners,would“maladapt”bytryingtoprotectpropertyfromrisingwaters
insteadofallowingatransitiontooccurfromdrylandtowetlands.
Andwhataretheprivateownersgoingtodo?Maybethatfirstthingtheygoingto
wanttodoistoripraptheedgesofthatproperty.Ifthey'rerichenough,theymighttry
anddothiswithevenafairlyundevelopedpropertytoprotecttheirtreesandthings
likethisandthat'sbad.That'smaladaptation.Wedon'twantthemtodothat.
Yettheurgeforpeopletoprotecttheirhomesandpropertyisanaturalone.Oneofthe
respondentsnotedthisandcitedtheexampleofSmithIsland.
WithSmithIsland,theywereofferedabuyoutbythefederalgovernmentacoupleof
yearsagoandallthisstuff,anpeoplegotallbentoutofshape.Becausetheysaid,
“LookthepeopleinAnnapolisandDCaretheoneswhoareupsetaboutthisclimate
changestuff.”Theysaid,“We'vebeenfloodedforcenturies,”andtheysaid,“Wecan
handleit.Thestormwashesovertheislandandwefixwhateverisruinedandthen
we’rereadyforthenextstorm,whereaswithyouguysitwashesupintoyourcitiesand
itruinsthingsandeverybodygetsbentoutofshape.”Theyjustsaiditwasinstancesof
flooding.Itwasn’tsealevelrise.Itwaskindofaverycarefullyconstructedviewofthe
world,butitkindofmakessensebecausewe'reaskingthemtoleave.We'reasking
themtoleavetheirhundredsofyearsofculture.
Climatechange,andevensea‐levelrise,likelyremaindifficulttopicsofconversationin
manyofthecommunitiesaroundBlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefuge,particularlybecause
14 theconsequences—whethertheenvironmentalchangesorthethreatofgovernment
intervention—appeardire.Climatechangeandthelossofthesaltmarshesaresaidtobe
uncommonsubjectsforpublicdiscussion,eventhoughintervieweesreportthatlocal
governmentsandprivatepropertyownerswillhavetobeginmakingdecisionssoonabout
theirresponsestothesethreats.Theideathatthesaltmarshessupportawiderecosystem
witheconomicandculturalvalue—particularlyfishstocks—isonethatmaybeunfamiliar
tomanyinthecommunity.
Conclusion
Whileadmittedlyaverysmallsample,thecommentsofthetworespondentsfrom
PickeringCreek’sbusinessandfaithcommunityaudienceswerequalitativelydifferent
fromtheotherintervieweesinthattheirfocuswasnotprimarilyenvironmental.They
discussedtheenvironmentalcontextinrelationtoissuesofimportancetothecommunity,
asopposedtothecommunitycontextinrelationtohabitatprotection.Thissuggestssome
ofthecommunicationchallengesforcommunityengagementonthisissuemayhavenot
beenrealizedtodatewithintheSaltMarshStoriesprogram.PickeringCreek’straditional
audiences—Audubonchaptermembersanduniversitystudentswhomayliveanhouror
moreawayfromBlackwater—haveless“skininthegame”inregardstotheeffectsofthe
migrationofthesaltmarshesonthecommunitiessurroundingBlackwaterthantheir
neweraudiencesinTalbotandDorchestercountiesthataretheirincreasingfocus.
Intervieweesrecognizedtheimportanceofdevelopingacommunicationapproachthat
informslocaldecision‐making,butalsopossibilityforconflictwiththelocalcommunity.
TherewasbroadsupportforPickeringCreektakinganactiveroleinfacilitatingcommunity
conversationswithleadersofconservationeffortsunderwayatBlackwaterNational
WildlifeRefuge,buttherewasalevelofuncertaintyaboutthedegreetowhichPickering
Creekwouldwanttoenterthepoliticalfray,atthecostofalienatingsomeaudiences,orbe
abletoserveasacompletelyneutralpartyonthesubjectof(human)community
adaptation.
ThestakeholdersinterviewedforthisstudyrecognizedtheenormousvalueofPickering
Creek’senvironmentaleducationprogramstothelocalandextendedcommunitiesofthe
EasternShoreandAudubon.Furthermore,theysupportedincreasedadultprogramming
thatheightenstheawarenessoftheimmediatecommunityofthevalueofitswealthof
naturalresourcesandthechangesthattheyareexperiencing.Betweenenvironmental
education,communityfacilitation,andpolicyadvocacy,therearealargearrayofoutreach
andengagementstrategiesandoptionsfromwhichPickeringCreekcanchoosein
advancingitsgoalsforwiderlocalengagementandasaltmarshforum.Makingthose
decisionsstrategically,inrecognitionofsomeofthepossiblechallengesmentionedinthis
report,willlikelybeimportantforthesuccessofitsefforts.
15 Recommendations 
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Developamulti‐yearcommunicationplanthatdetailstherolethatPickeringCreek
choosestotakeinthecommunityanditsimplementation—whetheritistocontinue
largelyprovidingenvironmentaleducation,orwhetheritistopresentinformation
toinformlocaldecision‐makingaboutpolicies.
Considerthefullarrayofpossiblyinfluentialaudiencesinlocalcommunities,
especiallycivicleaders,andwhatcontributionstheymightmaketothewider
discourse.
Evaluatewhethertherearedifferencesintheneedsandperspectivesofthenew
targetaudiencestothesaltmarshes,andhowthosemightbeaddressedin
recruitment,presentationcontent,andexperientialevents.Thisstudy,whilevery
preliminary,wouldsuggestthatenvironmentally‐focusedapproachesonthesalt
marshmaybelesseffectivethanthosethatleadwithacommunityfocus,especially
onethatrecognizeshistory,relationsbetweensocialgroups,culturalvalues,and
economicconditions.
ThehistoryofAfricanAmericansintheregionisrichandwell‐supportedbyarea
organizations.Nevertheless,intervieweesindicatedracialdividesremaininthe
community.Considerpartneringwithorganizations,suchastheHarrietTubman
MuseumandEducationalCenterortheHarrietTubmanOrganization,thatrecognize
thatheritageanditsconnectionwiththemarshes.Alsoconsiderwhetherthe
interestsoftheAfricanAmericanchurcheswithinthe“faithcommunityaudience”
haveuniqueinterests,socialnetworks,andneedsthatmightrequireasimilarly
distinctapproachfromotherfaithorganizations.
16 Appendix A Connected community members; important partner organizations and individuals 
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VictoriaStanleyJackson,Mayor,Cambridge
WayneBell,MarylandOrnithologicalSociety
Rev.KeithCornish
JoanHarrisBrooks,NewRevivedUnitedMethodistChurch
Rev.JeromeTilghman
NAACP
DonaldPindr,President,HarrietTubmanOrganization
KatePatton,ExecutiveDirector,LowerShoreLandTrust
MarylandDept.ofNaturalResources
U.S.ArmyCorpsofEngineers,BaltimoreOffice
BlackwaterNationalWildlifeRefuge,ManagerSuzanneBaird,SupervisoryBiologist
MattWhitbeck
EastonCouncilPresidentJohnFord
EastonCouncilmanPeteLesher
TalbotCountyManagerAndyHollis
JohnValliant,President,GrayceB.KerrFund
BryanRoche,BayCountryCommunications
SarahAbel,EasternShoreLandConservancy
JeffHubbert,LaneEngineering(formerpresidentofRotary)
AlanNelson,retired,formerlywithDorchesterChamberofCommerce
JenniferLayton,boardmember,DorchesterChamberofCommerce
JohnSwainIII,4thgenerationfarmer
BalvinBrinsfield,farmernorthofVienna
TimothyJones,VicePresident,AdministrativeServices,ChesapeakeCollege
StuartBounds,formerpresident,ChesapeakeCollege
NanticokeWatershedAlliance
AssateagueCoastalTrust
CambridgeDowntownMerchantsAssociation
NatureConservancy
ChesapeakeBayConservancy
UniversityofMarylandCenterforEnvironmentalSciences,HornePoint GregFarley,EnvironmentalScience,ChesapeakeCommunityCollege
MikeLewis,Chair,Dept.ofEnvironmentalStudies,SalisburyUniversity
TomHorton,author
DaveHarp,photographer
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KerrySamos,educationcoordinatorforMarylandCoastalBays
JimRapp,managerfortheHazelOutdoorDiscoveryCenter(wasontheboardofthe
AssateagueCoastalTrust)
Appendix B PickeringCreekInterviewswithCommunityMembers|InterviewScript
Introduction:Hi,I’mKarenAkerlof.Thankyouforagreeingtothisinterview.Asyouknow,IworkatGeorge
MasonUniversityandamassistingPickeringCreekAudubonCenterwiththisresearchstudy.Iamtalkingto
peopleintheregion,andconductingsurveyswithlocalorganizations,tobetterunderstandthelocal
communityanditsrelationshiptothearea’snaturalresources,andtofindouthowPickeringCreekAudubon
Center’sworkaffectsthiscommunity.
Thisisinformationaboutthestudy[showconsentform].Pleasetakeaminutetoreadit.Thereisalso
informationontheformabouttheaudio‐tapingofthisinterview.Ifyouagreetobeaudio‐taped,pleasecheck
thatboxaswell.Iexpectthattheinterviewwilltakebetween45minutesandanhour.Pleasenote,too,that
thisinterviewisconfidential.Wewillnotuseyournameinreportingonthisstudy,thoughwemayidentify
whichsector–faith,highereducation,businessorAudubon–thatyouarefrom.
(Followupquestion:Canyoutellmemoreaboutthat?)
Let’sgetstarted…
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Canyoutellmeabitaboutyourself?
a. Howlonghaveyoulivedinthisarea?
b. Wheredoyouwork?
Howwouldyoudescribethecommunityof[communityname]?
a. Howwouldyoudescribetheplace?
b. Howwouldyoudescribethepeople?
c. Ifyouhadtosummarize[communityname]inonesentence,whatwouldbemostimportant
formetoknow?
Sometimescertainpeopleinacommunityhavealotofconnections,andknoweveryoneand
everythingthatisgoingon.Whoin[communityname]wouldyousayfitsthatrole?
a. Wheredotheywork?
b. Whatistheirtitle?
Ifyouwantedtogetsomethingdonein[communityname],likewinvotestobecomeelectedasalocal
leader,aretherecertainorganizationsandpeoplethatyouwoulddefinitelyneedtohaveonyour
side?
a. Whoarethosepeople?
b. Ororganizations?
Howinvolvedareyouinthecommunityintermsofyourparticipationwithlocalorganizationsand
government?
a. Canyoutellmeaboutthoseactivities?
b. Doyouthinkyouaremorecivicallyengaged–orless–thanmostpeopleinthiscommunity?
c. Whatmakesithardtobecivicallyengaged?
18 d. Isthereanythingthatcouldbedonetomakeiteasier?
WhatcanyoutellmeaboutPickeringCreekAudubonCenter?
a. HaveyouparticipatedinCenteractivities?
i. Ifnot,whynot
b. Whichactivitieshaveyouparticipatedin?
c. Whichactivitieshavebeenyourmostfavorite?Canyoutellmewhy?
7. WhatroledoesPickeringCreekserveinthecommunity?
a. Whatdoesitdoreallywell?
b. Arethereotherwaysthatitcouldcontributetothecommunitythatitdoesn’tcurrently?
8. Whataspectsofnaturedoyounoticethemostinthisregion?
a. Which–ifany–aremostmeaningfulforyou?
b. Inwhatwayaretheymeaningfultoyou?
c. Wouldyousaythattheseaspectshavestayedthesameovertime,orchanged?
9. Whatcanyoutellmeaboutthesaltmarshesinthisregion?
a. Howoftenhaveyouvisitedthem?
b. Canyoutellmeaboutyourmostrecentvisit?
c. Howdothesaltmarshesrelatetothepeopleinthisarea,ifatall?
d. Dopeoplein[communityname]evertalkaboutthesaltmarshes?
i. Whatdotheytalkabout?
10. Dopeoplein[communityname]talkaboutsea‐levelrise?
a. Whatdoyouhearpeoplesaymostfrequently?
b. Doyouagree,ordisagree?
c. Dopeoplecallitsea‐levelrise?Ordotheycallitsomethingelse?
d. IsSLRarelevantissuefor[communityname]?
e. IfSLRisarelevantissuefor[communityname],whatcouldpeopledoaboutit?
i. Ofthosethings,whichwouldbemostimportant?
ii. Whatwouldthecommunityneedtodotomakethathappen?
f. AreyoucurrentlytakinganyactionspersonallybecauseofSLR?
11. Dopeoplein[communityname]evertalkaboutclimatechange?
a. Whatdoyouhearpeoplesaymostfrequently?
b. Doyouagree,ordisagree?
c. Dopeoplecallitclimatechange?Ordotheycallitsomethingelse?
d. Isclimatechangearelevantissuefor[communityname]?
e. Ifclimatechangeisarelevantissuefor[communityname],whatcouldpeopledoaboutit?
i. Ofthosethings,whichwouldbemostimportant?
ii. Whatwouldthecommunityneedtodotomakethathappen?
f. Areyoucurrentlytakinganyactionspersonallybecauseofclimatechange?
12. Thatwasmylastquestion‐‐thankyouforyourtimetoday.Doyouhaveanyquestionsforme?
6.
Iwillbetranscribingtheseinterviews[ifconsentwasprovided]andwritingasummaryofthefindingsfor
PickeringCreekAudubonCenter.Iamhappytosharethosefindingswithyouifyouareinterested.[Fillin
cardwithcontactinformationifwouldlikeacopyofthereport.]Thankyouforspeakingwithmetoday.
19 20