Katalog izložbe

bogdan
bogdanović
/ukleti neimar
the doomed
architect
gliptoteka hazu
medvedgradska 2 • zagreb
1
‘ovu knjigu sam
morao da napišem ...
zar sam mogao
da je ne napišem?’ /
I had to write this
book ... did I have any
other choice?’
— mrtvouzice. mentalne zamke staljinizma.
zagreb: august cesarec, 1988.
2
3
arhitektura
kao primijenjena
antropologija/sonja
leboš
P
oziv Austrijskog kulturnog
01
foruma u Zagrebu da za
Ponovo sam
izložbu u Zagrebu priredim
se povezala s
postojeći materijal iz bečkog
Bogdanovićevim
Arhitektonskog centra kojeg
memorijalnim
je pripremio Ivan Ristić, veliki poznavatelj
kompleksima
nasljeđa Bogdana Bodanovića, prihvatila
započimajući
sam s velikim oduševljenjem i dubokim
uzbuđenjem. Naslov izložbe je preuzet
iz Bogdanovićevog vlastitog prihvaćanja
u 2009. godini.
Ledouxovog epiteta maudit, kojeg je usvojio
Radi se o projektu
1990ih. Prihvaćanje da bude architecte
koji je proizašao
maudit formuliralo je sintagmu šireg opsega
iz ideiranja
značenja – ‘ukleti neimar’, koja je opet
pojmova teatra
prevedena kao the doomed architect.
Dok pripremam izložbu i pišem ovaj tekst
i teorije na način
na koji počivaju
moj cilj nije ni u potpunosti rasvijetliti, kako
u starogrčkim
je to Friedrich Achleitner napisao, ‘fenomen
korijenima theā i
Bogdan Bogdanović’, niti pokazati njegov
oros, sa značenjem
rad u njegovom neizmjernom opsegu. Moja
gledati i vidjeti.
ambicija sadržana je u tome da rad Bogdana
http://www.
Bogdanovića prije svega približim mlađim
theatreofmemories.
generacijama i ukažem na njegovu uočljivu
org/
povijesnost, a time i politički značaj. BB je
bio izvanredan arhitekt, pejzažni arhitekt,
umjetnik, pisac, sveučilišni profesor,
urbanolog i političar. Moja zahvalnost
je velika – BB je bio jedan od prvih koji je
označio gabarite polja rada na koje mnogi
od nas danas referiraju kao na polje vlastite
suvremene prakse: polje urbanologije.
Rad Bogdana Bogdanovića upoznala sam
1988,01 nakon što je njegova knjiga Mrtvouzice
bila objavljena u Zagrebu. Bilo je to čudno
razoblje, interregnum – nakon što se ugasila
4
projekt Mnemosyne
– Kazalište sjećanja
5
karizmatična dominacija koja je desetljećima
02
bila uvodila ugodu utopijske bezbrižnosti,
Bogdanović, 2009.
dok su feudalni ratni vladari još uvijek čekali
u zasjedi i izdavali naredbe svojim vazalima,
prije nego što će te naredbe postati zapovjedi
da se ubija, siluje i pali kako bi se formirala
fiktivna srodstva utemeljena na bezbrojnim
krvavim paktovima. Prije no što su došla
vremena koja BB opisuje kao užasna, kada
su ‘snovi (bili) legitimna, a možda i jedina
samoodbrana’.02
Već tada, 1988. godine,03 bilo je jasno da
03
Danas kada se
vraćam mislima
unazad, razmišljam
kako je čudno da
nitko nije našao za
shodno da mojoj
generaciji govori
o radu Bogdana
Bogdanovića – a
bila sam učenica
Odjela za dizajn
i unutrašnju
arhitekturu Škole
primijenjenih
umjetnosti u
Zagrebu, 1981 – 85, a
kasnije i studentica
arhitekture na
zagrebačkom
Sveučilištu, 1985 – 88.
04
Kao što sam
naučila od dragog
prijatelja i kolege
iz Južne Amerike,
intelektualci su
ljudi koji se osjećaju
Seoska škola za filozofiju arhitekture u Malom
Popoviću, večernja sesija / Village school for the
philosophy of architecture in Mali Popović, evening
session, 1979.
odgovornim za
društvo u kojem žive
te djeluju prema
tom osjećaju.
6
05
Svojom je knjigom Mrtvouzice BB jasno
Dok je uspoređivao državu u kojoj je živio
BB zauzima poziciju intelektualca,04 iako
Namjerno kažem
pokazao društvu u kojem je živio, a bio je
s Lévy-Bruhlovim opisima tzv. primitivnih
nitko osim onih koji su isti planirali nije
znakovlje, a ne
jedan od prvh koji je to učinio, da su jezik
društava, BB je verificirao činjenicu da je
mogao predvidjeti nadolazeći užas, što je
simboli, poštujući
i lingvistika esencijalna oruđa političke
dobrohotna moć, ona koja čini dobro većini,
tada postala rijetka pozicija za ljude njegove
razliku koju je učinio
antropologije. Kao što je to sâm objasnio,
obično u srži društva, dok prijeteća moć
generacije u regiji koja je danas poznata
Cassirer, baš kao
BB je poznavao rad Lévy-Bruhla još od
ostaje razasuta, djelujući poput vještičarenja.
kao bivša Jugoslavija ili Jugoistočna Evropa.
što je to poštivao i
vremena prije Drugog svjetskog rata, a
Brisanje političkih funkcija koje su bile
Upravo zbog toga, nakon gotovo četvrt stoljeća,
Bogdanović.
pišući Mrtvouzice osjetio se ponukanim da
postojale u prethodnim desetljećima sa
preispita pojam ‘primitivnog’. Bogdanović
lica zemlje, kao i brisanje društvenih
želim započeti ovu malu, izložbi pripadajuću
publikaciju s Bogdanom Bogdanovićem
kao intelektualcem koji je zauzeo politički
stav kada je to učinila tek nekolicina, u
vremenima kada su mladi ljudi to očajnički
trebali, neki mladi ljudi koji su potom bili
lukavo zavedeni znakovljem05 mržnje. Naslov
ovog teksta06 ukazuje na smjernice koje
slijedim dok čitam njegovo djelo, pokušavajući
držati na umu njegova čitanja Loosa sažeta
06
Izraz koji je Bogdan
Bogdanović
upotrijebio u
intervjuu datom
Zoranu Miloviću,
objavljenom u
magazinu Start 1988.
godine
je također demonstrirao ono što je kasnije
uloga koje su se pojavile s modernizacijom,
tijekom stravičnog rata u 1990ima postalo
omogućilo je centraliziranom državnom
još prisutnije, a to je da javne i privatne
sistemu (ili, preciznije, i djelomično
(pri)povijesti koegzistiraju (ali često ne
centraliziranim republičkim sistemima)
miroljubivo) u svakom društvu. Upozoravao
da se udruže sa segmentiranim sistemima
je na neizbježnu opasnost: trenutak u kojem
klanova. Država je bila spremna za raspad,
je politička moć postala tako centralizirana
odnosno – za kasapljenje. Naknadni efekt je
da se povijesna svijest većine građanstva
bio sličan onome koji se dogodio u većini
jednostavno raspala. Erozija relativno
post-kolonijalnih i post-konfliktnih zemalja
u izrazu kako arhitektura uvijek može biti
07
progresivne i moderne socijalističke države
širom svijeta – Jugoistočna regija Evrope
ispričana, a koncentrirajući se na intenzitet
Bogdanović
bila je u svojoj posljednjoj fazi, a i danas je
je uskoro svjedočila raznim oblicima
komunikacije koji je BB stvorio između
upotrebljava
teško vjerovati da je bio jedini koji je to sve
pseudo-tradicionalizma, u formama daleko
naizgled vrlo različitih disciplina – arhitekture
pojam politija (eng.
vidio i rijetko dovoljno hrabar da to isto stavi
zajedljivijim no što je to Hobsbawm ikad
i antropologije – intenzitet koji je konstruiran
polity, njem. das
na papir.
mogao pretpostaviti.
na kapacitetu obje da djeluju koristeći snagu
Gemeinwesen),
deskriptivnog.
Kao čovjek sensu lato dobro upoznat s
Nakon perioda ratne destrukcije kakvu
iako je to van
drevnim kulturama i društvima, a i kao
uobičajenog leksika,
pedantan etimolog, BB je bio svjestan da je
i počinjenih neizrecivih surovosti koje se do
‘pretraga u njeno ime’, kao što je to BB stavio na
a umjesto riječi
riječ polis u korijenu riječi politija i politika.07
danas nisu kaznile, pseudo-tradicionalizam je
početku svoje knjige Mrtvouzice.
policy koja također
Ukazao je na činjenicu da je analiza političke
poprimio novu formu prostornih osvajanja – u
vuče korijen iz istog
funkcije jednako neophodna kao i analiza
poslijeratnom periodu nedostatak urbanog
ogromnog ponora koji je postojao i postoji
izvora, najčešće
političke akcije. Iscrtao je liniju i secirao
planiranja donio je drugu civilizacijsku
između teorija i diskursa proizvedenih od
se, opet, koristi
asimetriju društvenih odnosa u državi koje je
cezuru, kojoj i danas padamo kao šutljive žrtve.
Činim to zbog Mnemosyne, zbog budućih
Svojim političkim stavom BB se dotaknuo
Evropa nije vidjela od Drugog svjetskog rata
društva i o društvu i ekstremno lako osvojive
riječ politika (eng.
bio građanin. Nije mogao znati, ali je osjećao,
Problem prešutnog prihvaćanja, suglasja
društvene i političke stvarnosti koja proizlazi
politics) ili ponekad
da moć koja će uskoro biti uvedena biti
pod svaku cijenu, jednostavno uporno
iz ljudskih akcija. Ili nedostatka tih akcija – što
odredba, pravilnik ili
pretežno ona koja se temelji na prisili, koja
ostavlja svoj trag. Društvene uloge koje su
jednačim s problemom prešutnog prihvaćanja.
slično.
traži suglasnost pod svaku cijenu.
svoju pojavnost mogle zahvaliti periodu
7
‘Tek dovršeni tumuli
(veštački brežuljci) Spomengroblja u Sremskoj
Mitrovici, a odmah
zatim i grupa kenotafa
u makedonskom gradu
Prilepu, otvarali su put
jednoj novoj antropologiji
sećanja’/ ‘Just finished
tumuli (artificial hummocks)
of Memorial cemetery in
Sremska Mitrovica, and
right afterwards the
group of cenotaphs in the
Macedonian town Prilep,
opened up a path towards
a new anthropology of
remembrance.’
Spomen-groblje u
Kenotafi za pale
Sremskoj Mitrovici /
borce protiv fašizma
Memorial Cemetery in
u Prilepu / Cenotaphs
Sremska Mitrovica •
for the fallen
1959–1960.
members of the
resistance against
fascism in Prilep • 1961.
8
9
bibliografija / bibliography:
socijalističke modernizacije nisu se ponovno
do tada nepoznate kvalitete koja sadrži
08
ukazale u formi u kojoj su bile izgubljene, već
longue durée multidimenzionalnost. Kao što
Kolega Ivan
pervertirane. Baš kao i u zapadnoj Njemačkoj
je Ivan Ristić istaknuo u svojoj doktorskoj
Ristić i moja
Achleitner, F., Ristić I., Komac, U.,Guillén, P., Karge,
nakon Drugog svjetskog rata, preplavljujuća
dizertaciji, Bogdanović ‘se izuzetno isticao u
malenkost došli
H., Milovanović,D., Vuković, V.: Bogdan Bogdanović.
ideologija ekonomskog progresa odzvanja u
nadrealističkoj egzegezi klasičnog curriculī.’
smo do poredbe
Memoria und Utopie in Tito – Jugoslawien.
Bogdanović-
Wien: Wieser & AzW, 2009.
svakom uhu.
Upoznati se s fenomenom Bogdan
Bogdanović životni je zadatak kojeg
Smithson nezavisno
o razvoju grada i njegovog okružja još u
pruzimam sa zahvalnošću u svojim daljnjim
jedno od drugog.
ranim 1970im: da li je moguće da još uvijek
istraživanjima u područjima urbanologije,
Ipak je važno reći
imamo to jedno jedino ime – grad – za
politike pamćenja i umjetnosti komemoracija.
da je ono što je kod
Bogdanović, Bogdan: Urbs&Logos.
potpuno izdiferencirane entitete poput
Ne mogu drugačije nego privesti kraju
mene još uvijek
Niš: Gradina, 1976.
BB je postavio svoje epohalno pitanje
suvremenog Tokija i drevne Smirne? Nakon
ovaj mali uvodni tekst riječima Friedricha
tek naznačena
što je bio izgubio bitku za Novu školu na
Achleitnera, koji je neizmjerno kompetentniji
poredba, Ivan je
Arhitektonskom fakultetu u Beogradu, borio
od mene u bavljenju nazvanim fenomenom:
pomnije elaborirao
Balandier, Georges: Anthropologie Politique.
Presses Universitaires de France, 1967.
Bogdanović, Bogdan: Mrtvouzice.
Zagreb: August Cesarec, 1988.
se protiv mogućih scenarija dezintegracije
‘memorijalna područja Bogdana
u svojoj doktorskoj
Bogdanović, Bogdan: Zelena kutija.
grada svojom školom u Malom Popoviću.
Bogdanovića su loci jedne urbane kulture,
dizertaciji, str.
Novi Sad: Mediterran Publishing, 2009.
86 – 89.
Šansa koju su mladi ljudi na taj način dobili,
...ona su uvijek bila izvedena iz topografije i
šansa da re-imaginiraju grad, bila je jedna
krajolika da bi bila tranformirana u mjesta
vrsta iznimnog pedagoškog pothvata, baš kao
promišljanja, prisjećanja i kontemplacije’.10
što su brojne transformacije raznih krajolika
09
Bogdanović, 1976.
oblikovale neusporediva memorijalna
Generirajući pejzaže kao aktere urbane
10
područja, sijući sjeme umjetnosti pejzažnog
civilizacije, Bogdanović nam je ostavljao
Achleitner, 2009.
oblikovanja čak i prije no što je Robert
ogromno transnacionalno nasljeđe širom
S njemačkog
Smithson iskovao sintagmu land-art.08 Kada
tadašnjeg suverenog političkog entiteta,
prevedeno od strane
samo i zavirimo u Bogdanovićeve temeljite
danas regije Jugoistočne Evrope. Nasljeđe
autorice.
elaborate etruščanske kulture,09 lako ćemo
koje evropska društva tek trebaju naučiti
shvatiti da je njegov environmentalism od
poznavati i cijeniti. ¶
Bogdanović, Bogdan: Ukleti neimar.
Novi Sad: Mediterran Publishing, 2011.
Braudel, Fernand & Matthews, Sarah: On History,
The University of Chicago Press, 1982.
Cassiser, Ernst: Philosophie der Symbolischen
Formen. Darmstadt: 1959.
Hobsbawm, Eric: The Invention of Tradition.
Cambridge University Press, 1983.
Plessner, Helmut: Zakašnjela nacija,
Zagreb: Naprijed, 1997.
Ristić, Ivan: Bogdan Bogdanović. Baumester und
Zeichner, University of Vienna, 2009.
http://othes.univie.ac.at/9957
polis / metropolis / megalopolis / nekropolis
10
Spomen-područje Jasenovac
/ Jasenovac Memorial Site •
1959–1966.
11
architecture
as applied
anthropology
sonja
/ lebosch
T
he invitation that came from the
01
Austrian Cultural Forum in Zagreb
I reconnected
to adapt the existing material
to Bogdanović’s
from the Architekturzentrum
memorial sites
Wien as chosen and prepared
when starting the
by the great connoisseur of Bogdan
Bogdanović’s legacy Ivan Ristić for an
exhibition in Zagreb, was an opportunity that
Memories in 2009,
I took with the greatest joy and profound
a project emerging
excitement. The title of the exhibition is
from the ideation
taken from Bogdanović’s own acceptance
of both theatre and
of Ledoux’s epithet maudit, that he adopted
theory as resting
in the 1990s. So the acceptance of being
in Greek roots theā
l’architecte maudit formulated the translation
and oros meaning
with a broader scope of meanings – ukleti
viewing and seeing.
neimar, which was then transcribed as the
http://www.
doomed architect.
My aim while preparing the exhibition as
well writing this text is neither to elucidate
completely, as Friedrich Achleitner wrote,
the ‘Bogdanović phenomenon’, nor to
show his work in its immense entirety. My
ambition is to give an opportunity primarily
to the younger generations to get acquainted
with Bogdanović’s work and to point to his
conspicuously historical, and therefore
political, relevance. BB was an outstanding
architect, landscape architect, artist, writer,
educationist, urbanologist and politician. My
gratitude to him is boundless – he was one of
the first to designate the field of work that
many of us today refer to as to the field of our
own contemporary practice: urbanology.
I got acquainted with Bogdanović’s
work in 1988,01 after his book Mrtvouzice02
12
project Mnemosyne
– Theatre of
13
theatreofmemories.
org/
02
Could be loosely
translated as
Deathtraps.
03
had been published in Zagreb. It was the
inbetween these two disciplines – architecture
and they act upon
Bogdanović, 2009.
time of interregnum – after the charismatic
and anthropology – intensity construed on
that feeling.
Translated from
domination that for decades had been
the capacity of both to work with the power of
Bosnian-Croatian-
introducing utopian fervour ceased, while
descriptive.
Serbian language by
feudal warlords were still waiting in the
the author.
ambush, giving silent orders to their vassals,
future remembrance, as BB put it at the
before those orders became commands to
beginning of Mrtvouzice.
04
When I think back,
I find it strange
that nobody had
ever mentioned
his work to my
generation in the
school curriculum
– and I was a pupil
of Zagreb School
of Applied Arts,
Department for
Architecture and
Design,1981 – 1985,
and later also
a student of
architecture at the
University of Zagreb,
1985 – 1988.
For the sake of Mnemosyne, and for the
kill, rape or burn and fictitious kinships
With his political stand, Bogdanović
established by innumerable blood pacts.
tackled that immense hiatus that existed and
Before the times that BB describes as horrible
exists between the theories and discourses
came, when ‘dreams (were) the legitimate, if
produced by and about the society and an
not the only self-defense’.03
extremely conquerable social and political
Already then, in 1988,04 it was clear that
06
I deliberately say
signage, and not
symbols, while
respecting the
distinction that
Cassirer made, just
like Bogdanović
respected it as well.
reality that comes as a result of people’s
07
Bogdanović was taking a position of an
actions. Or lack of them – tantamount to the
Bogdan Bogdanović
intellectual,05 though nobody but those who
problem of acquiescence.
With his book Mrtvouzice, BB showed
planned it could have foreseen the upcoming
used that
expression in an
horror, which became a rare position for
clearly to the society that he lived in, and he
interview conducted
the people of his generation in the region
was one of the first to do so, that language
by Zoran Milović,
that is now known as former Yugoslavia,
and linguistics were and are essential tools of
published in Start
or South Eastern Europe (SEE). Therefore
political anthropology. As he explained, he
magazine in 1988.
I would like to start this small publication
knew the work of Lévy-Bruhl from the times
Translated from
that accompanies the exhibition in Zagreb
before WWII, and while writing Mrtvouzice he
Croatian-Bosnian-
in 2012, almost a quarter of a century later,
felt drawn to the reexamination of the notion
Serbian language by
with Bogdan Bogdanović as an intellectual
of ‘primitive’. Bogdanović also demonstrated,
the author.
who took a political stand when just few
what later would become even more horridly
people did, in the times when that stand was
Spomen-područje Jasenovac /
present in the 1990s Balkan wars, that public
05
desperately needed by many young people
Jasenovac Memorial Site • 1959–1966.
and private (hi)stories coexisted and coexist
As I learned from
who soon were cunningly seduced by the
a dear colleague
signage06 of hatred. The title of this text07
and friend from
refers to the path that I am taking up in my
South America,
readings of his work, while trying to keep in
intellectuals are the
mind his readings of Loos encapsulated in the
people who feel
expression that ‘architecture can be always
responsible for the
retold in words’,08 concentrating myself on
society they live in
the intensity of communication that BB built
14
‘Vodeni čvor u koji se, na
relativno malom prostoru,
upliću tri reke – Sava, Una,
Strug – podseća na zmijsko
gnezdo ...’/
‘Water facility in which, in a
relatively small area, these
three rivers interfere – Sava,
Una, Strug – are reminiscent
of the snake’s nest ...’
in every society. He was warning against the
imminent danger: the moment when the
political power became so centralized that
the historical conscioussnes of most of the
citizenry fell apart. The erosion of a relatively
progressive and modern socialist state was
in its latest phase, and even now it is difficult
to believe that he was the only one to see it
15
08
Bogdanović, 2011.
Translated from
Bosnian-CroatianSerbian by the
author.
coming and brave enough to put it down on
cantankerous than Hobsbawm could ever
even before the syntagm land-art was coined
09
paper the way he did.
assume.
by Robert Smithson.09 When one only peeks
Ivan Ristić and
into his thoroughgoing elaborations of the
myself came to the
As a man sensu lato knowledgeable
about ancient cultures and societies, and
kind that Europe had not seen since WWII
Etruscan culture,10 it is easy to comprehend
point of comparison
as a meticulous etymologist, BB was aware
and unspeakable atrocities which have
that Bogdanović’s environmentalism is of an
Bogdanović-
that the word polis gave root to the words
mostly been granted impunity, that pseudo-
unprecedented quality that contains the
Smithson
polity, policy and politics. He pointed out that
traditionalism took over the form of spatial
longue durée multidimensionality. As Ivan
independently. It
the analysis of the political function is as
conquest of another kind – in the aftermath
Ristić pointed out in his doctoral thesis,
is important to
indispensable as the analysis of the political
of the war the lack of urban planning brought
Bogdanović ‘excelled as a surrealist exegete of
note, though, that
the classical curriculum’.
Ivan elaborated
action. He drew a datum and dissected the
up another civilisational caesura, the one that
dissymmetry of the social relations in the
we are still the silent victims of. The problem
state he was a citizen of. He could not know,
of acquiescence just keeps on lingering. The
phenomenon’ is a life time task that I am
his PhD thesis,
but he felt, that the power soon to be ushered
social roles that emerged in the period of
thankfully accepting while investigating
p. 86 – 89.
would be predominantly one of coercion, one
socialist modernization did not reappear
further in urbanology, politics of
that would require consent no matter what.
in the shape they had when they were lost,
remembrance and arts of commemoration.
but perverted, and just like in the postwar
I cannot but bring to an end this small
the state he lived in with the descriptions of
Germany, the overwhelming ideology of the
introductory text with the words of Friedrich
Lévy-Bruhl’s primitive societies, Bogdanović
economic progress was in everybody’s ear.
Achleitner, who is immeasurably more
While comparing what was going on in
verified the fact that beneficent power
usually sits at the core of the society, while
Spomen-područje
Jasenovac
/ Jasenovac
Memorial Site •
1959–1966.
Diagram, oko /
about 1980
‘Meni su se riječi
i forme … uvijek
isprepletale.’ / ‘For me,
words & forms … have
always intertwined.’
16
After the period of war destruction of a
BB posed his epochal question about the
development of the city and its environment
Getting to know the ‘Bogdanović
competent than me to tackle the named
phenomenon:
it thoroughly in
10
Bogdanović, 1976.
Translated from
Bosnian-CroatianSerbian by the
author.
the threating power remains dispersed,
already in the early 1970s: is it possible that we
‘Bogdan Bogdanović’s memorial sites are
acting like witchcraft. The effacement of the
still have one name – the city – for extremely
loci of an urban culture, ...they had always
Achleitner, 2009.
11
political functions as had been known in the
differentiated entities like contemporary
been developed out of the topography and
Translated from
previous decades, as well as the effacement
Tokyo and ancient Smyrna? He fought against
landscape that then were transformed
German by the
of the most social roles that emerged with
author.
the plausible scenarios of disintegration
into the sites of thinking, recalling and
modernization, enabled the centralized state
of the city with his school in Mali Popović,
contemplation’.11
system (and semi-centralized systems of some
after the struggle for the New School at the
republics) to merge with the segmentary
Faculty of Architecture in Belgrade had been
With generating landscapes as agents of urban
clan system. The state was ready to be
lost. The chance that was given to the young
civilizations, Bogdanović left en enormous
dismembered, or rather – butchered. The
people to re-imagine the idea of the city was
transnational legacy all over the SEE region.
Str. / pg. 18–19
after effect was similar to those exorcised in
a unique pedagogical undertaking, just like
Legacy that the European societies still have
Spomen-područje
the most of the post-colonial and post-conflict
his numerous transformations of various
to learn to know and respect. ¶
countries around the world – the SEE region
landscapes across the country had been
Jasenovac
/ Jasenovac
was soon to be witnessing diverse forms of
forming unequaled memorial sites while
Translation: Sonja Leboš
pseudo-traditionalism, in forms much more
seeding the art of landscaping of a new kind
Revision: Aleksandar Kono Hut
17
Memorial Site •
1959–1966.
‘Arhitekture
(unutrašnje i vanjske)...’ /
‘Architectures
(from the inside & from the outside)...’
‘Sve što sam umeo bilo je da posegnem za vrlo arhaičnim formulama,
jer sam smatrao da ukoliko skrivena reč oblika dalje seže u
metaistorijske slojeve ljudske fantazije, utoliko će biti veća mogućnost
solidarnog čitanja simbola.’ / ‘What I was capable of, was recoursing
to very archaic forms. I was convinced that the deeper the semantics
of form went into the meta-historical layers of the human imagination,
the more readily understood the symbols would be.’
18
19
umjesto
biografije
Grimmer: Kad bi vas, gospodine Bogdanoviću, htjeli
predstaviti, došli bismo u priličnu dilemu jer vi imate
četiri biografije – arhitekt, likovni umjetnik, književnik,
političar. Postoji li za vas određena hijerarhija u tome
pogledu?
Bogdanović: Ja sam to uvijek osjećao kao
cjelinu. Moja je ličnost bila kompozitna, pa se
to sve moglo uskladiti. Često sam razmišljao
o hijerarhiji. Kao prvo sam arhitekt, pomalo
i pisac, pomalo i crtač i vrlo malo političar.
Ali to malo bilo je žestoko. No, politika mi
se nije sviđala, bio sam političar jer je u ono
vrijeme bila takva situacija da sam smatrao
da to moram biti. Reagirao sam prema svom
temperamentu, a prema tome su onda došle i
kontrareakcije.
bogdan bogdanović/
gradovi su bića
20
Kenotafi
žrtvama fašizma
u Travniku /
Već u djetinjstvu Bogdan Bogdanović
Grimmer: Kao profesor urbanizma zauzimali ste
ušao je u svijet umjetnosti u kući
se za druge kvalitete, a ne za pragmatični, “korisni”
svoga oca, čuvenog književnog
urbanizam. Suprotstavili ste se urbanizmu kvantitete.
kritičara i kazališnog ravnatelja
Međutim, faktori koji su odredili vaš profesionalni put
Milana Bogdanovića. Tu je već
sigurno su ponešto složeniji.
kao sedmogodišnjak upoznao
Bogdanović: Dao sam se birati za asistenta
Miroslava Krležu. Pripadnost
na Katedri za urbanizam jer je u trenutku kad
krugu beogradskih nadrealista oko
sam diplomirao arhitektura u Jugoslaviji bila
Marka Ristića zauvijek je odredila
jadna, radilo se samo sa dva tipa prozora, tako
njegovu osobnu poetiku u sva tri
da se u tu siromašnu, tobože funkcionalističku
paralelna medija kojima se iskazuje
arhitekturu nisu mogle uklopiti moje
– spomeničkoj arhitekturi, crtežu i
prethodne fantazije. Počeo sam studirati prije
Cenotaphs for
literaturi. U svom životu Bogdanović
rata, a na arhitekturu sam otišao iz jednog
the victims of
ni u umjetnosti ni u politici nije
nadrealističkog miljea. Napravio sam čak i
fascism in Travnik
tražio lagan put, već se uvijek kretao
neki program i naslovio ga, parafrazirajući
• 1971–1975.
protiv struje.
Corbusiera: “Vers une architecture surealiste”.
Razgovarala u Beču Vera Grimmer,
Htio sam praviti nadrealističku arhitekturu,
29. svibnja 2006. godine
ali to je podrazumijevalo klijente koji bi to
21
htjeli, kao što je to, na primjer, bio slučaj
Grimmer: Nadrealizam je subverzivno prisutan već
Grimmer: Možda bi bilo zanimljivo nešto saznati iz
s kućom za Tristana Tzaru. Za vrijeme
stoljećima – od Hieronimusa Boscha ili čudesnih komora
vašega iskustva s nadrealističkim krugom.
rata zabavljao sam se s Markom Ristićem
manirizma, pa do Bretonovog pokreta. On je malo
tako da sam tobože za njega projektirao
potisnut, ali možda je danas vrijeme kada on opet dolazi
primaju u nadrealističko društvo ne može se
jednu sumanutu kuću, gdje se iz gornjeg
na površinu, kada ponovo ljude zanima jer u totalno
govoriti bez presjeka kroz ondašnju moralno-
Bogdanović: O onom trenutku kad me
kata moglo klizati u donji, prepunu nekih
reguliranom vremenu globalizacije, profita opet postoji
literarnu situaciju u Jugoslaviji. Nadrealizam
iznenađenja. Da je bilo moguće, ja bih tako
potreba za nekom anarhijom.
je bio beogradski, ali je bio neodvojiv od Krleže.
radio arhitekturu. U mome krugu svi smo
Bogdanović: Ja bih volio da se to vaše
Krleža nije volio nadrealizam, ali nije smio to
bili nadrealisti i ljevičari, ali kad je došlo
predviđanje ostvari. Doduše, sad je već
priznati. Nadrealisti su ga obožavali, a i on se
naše lijevo društvo, vidjeli smo da od takvih
manje-više svejedno, ali i nije. Ja sam uvijek
jako dobro slagao s njima. Zbog te svoje faze
nadrealističkih egzibicija nema ništa. U
smatrao da nadrealizam vuče duboke korijene
i druženja s nadrealistima došao je na crni
očajanju sam se odlučio za urbanizam jer je to
iz povijesti, povijesti umjetnosti, povijesti
spisak Partije; mislim da mu to nikad poslije
donekle ipak i neka znanstvena disciplina.
civilizacije. Pretpostavljam da se pravi
nije bilo oprošteno, to je uvijek prešućivano.
ondašnji nadrealisti ne bi ljutili. Nadrealizam
To je bio jedan krug – to vrijedi za onu grupu
Ali preokret u mom životu bio je kad
sam dobio natječaj za Spomenik židovskim
je nastavak romantizma.
nadrealista koji su bili bretonovci, a to su bili
žrtvama u Beogradu. Najedanput mi se
Marko Ristić, Dušan Matić, Aleksandar Vučo.
otvorio čitav novi svijet simbola, usporednih
Grimmer: Bretonovski nadrealizam bio je još obogaćen i
Ali bila je i druga nadrealistička grupa – oni
značenja. Tada počinje taj moj način mišljenja
kontekstom razvoja psihoanalize.
nisu bili bretonovci, nego su, bogami, bili
Bogdanović: Primite to kao sasvim
aragonovci, a aragonovci su bili staljinisti.
mogu misliti i na nemoderan način. Moje
arbitrarnu igru riječi – ali i psihoanaliza je
I sad, iz ove beogradske nadrealističke
prve kuće na Avali kraj Beograda s početka
vukla svoje korijene iz romantizma. Možda je
grupe su poslije izašli i vrlo dobri generali
50-ih godina bile su pune reminiscencija. Moj
apsurdno to što sam rekao, ali čini mi se tako.
revolucije – Koča Popović i drugi.
“na katove”. Ja sam moderni arhitekt, ali
prijatelj je bio inženjer na Hidro-tehničkom
Točno rečeno, mislim da je Popović bio
Grimmer: Za to sigurno imate argumente.
institutu, pa su te kuće bile namijenjene
potajni bretonovac. Takva stajališta Partija
njihovim zaposlenicima. Te bi kuće mogle
Bogdanović: Prodirati u donje slojeve,
biti i na Mediteranu, no kad sam ih gradio,
duboko, uzmite samo romantičarsku
nadrealist, do posljednjeg daha. Kad sam bio
nisam mislio da će izgledati mediteranski.
literaturu, pa nadrealizam – frojdizam je
gradonačelnik, sreo sam ga u jednoj situaciji
Građene su na starinski način, potpuno od
nastao iz toga stanja duha …
je tek tolerirala. Ali on je apsolutno ostao
kad je bio proskribiran. Uputio sam mu poziv
kamena. Te su kuće bile nadrealističke i nisu
da dođe na dodjelu nekih plaketa i on se
Grimmer: Možda je nastao iz bolesti vremena.
naišle na odobravanje struke, budući da su
pojavio sav preplašen. Morate znati da sam
Bogdanović: Da, iz bolesti vremena je Freud
svi bili moderni da ne može modernije. Oni
ja kao gradonačelnik pravio razne egzibicije
su se tada jedva odlijepili od socijalističkog
izvlačio tu svoju spekulaciju koja je divna
jer sam imao iza sebe Ivana Stambolića. Vidio
realizma, a onda dolazi netko tko opet radi
spekulacija; koliko je pomogla nesretnicima,
sam da je čovjek došao, pa nikako da sjedne, pa
takvo nešto. No nisu shvatili nadrealističku
to je sad drugo pitanje. Ali kao spekulacija je
hoće u prvi red, pa neće ... A onda ja ustanem,
podlogu.
bila divna.
cijela sala zašuti, onda ja dođem do njega:
22
23
“Kočo, dođite, sjednite sa mnom”. “O, pa vrlo
političkih klopki da se saplećete o podzemne
generacije koje su dolazile izvana. To
E sad, kako su se uopće ti spomenici mogli
rado.” Ja ga dovedem i sjednem s njim, a onda
interese. Gledao sam da budem što dalje od
zavlačenje u podrume, penjanje na tavane,
raditi i zašto su se radili, zašto sam ja dobivao
nastane jedna duboka tišina i zatim pljesak
svega toga, tako da sam poslije, kako sam
razgovori sa raznim “oriđinalima” po bifeima.
narudžbe? U jednom vremenu, kad smo već
Koči Popoviću.
vodio taj urbanizam, došao u situaciju da me
O svemu i svačemu se pričalo, samo se pazilo
sasvim raščistili sa Rusima, u spomeničkoj
biraju za docenta. Onda sam preokrenuo naziv
da ne bude politike.
arhitekturi je još uvijek sovjetski model bio
Grimmer: Vaši crteži tih fantazijskih bića koja su
predmeta – ne Urbanizam nego Urbanologija.
katkada bića i kuće istodobno na neki način podsjećaju
Tu sam bio slobodan, slobodno razmišljanje o
na onirička bića Maxa Ernsta.
pesnica, energija, budućnost, itd. I onda
Grimmer: U knjizi Zaludna mistrija – knjizi o bratstvu
dolazi jedan zamračeni “matoriji” momak,
gradu, bez praktičnog urbanizma. A praktični
uzaludnih i tragičnih graditelja Paladija, Borrominija,
počinje raditi nešto sasvim drugačije, neku
urbanizam je, htjeli, ne htjeli, mračan
Piranesija, Gaudija – govorite o pojmu unutarnje
koreografiju, neki balet. A partijski vrh je
moj svetac. Ne Picasso, Picasso je moćan, ali
posao, to je politika, to se itekako osjećalo i u
arhitekture.
pristajao na sve što ja radim samo da se
ovaj mi je bio bliži.
socijalizmu.
Bogdanović: Pa, pogodili ste, Max Ernst je
Bogdanović: Zaludna mistrija, to je kapitalna
pobjegne od sovjetskog modela. A nije se bilo
knjiga, a dovela je i do komplikacija. Govorilo
lako odlijepiti, nije bilo lako. Veliki majstori se
Grimmer: Ako krenemo na područje vaših spomenika,
Grimmer: Kako ste za vrijeme pedagoške djelatnosti
se: “Što on to piše, on treba predavati kako
nisu od toga mogli odlijepiti. A onda je tu bilo
recimo i kod Ernsta postoje te skulpture, na primjer
tretirali studente – kao sudionike u jednoj ravnopravnoj
se grade gradovi, kako se grade socijalistički
još nešto – sad ne vjerujem da je to utjecalo na
skulptura “Capricorn”, koje su od betona i imaju neke
diskusiji ili je to bilo ex catedra.
gradovi”. Pojam unutarnje arhitekture mišljen
narudžbe – ja nisam te spomenike naplaćivao.
Bogdanović: Katedra nikada nije bila. U
je ironično. Ja se podsmjehujem malo rječniku
Ja sam striktno pokrivao svoje troškove koje
Bogdanović: Mislim da je u onome što sam
životu dvaput isto predavanje nisam održao,
svoje struke u tom pojmovnom ciklusu, pa
sam imao. Morao sam imati svoj automobil,
ja radio kao graditelj, u tim spomeničkim
a profesori nose sa sobom skripte, čitaju iz
kažem što je unutarnja arhitektura. Unutarnja
morao sam na silna putovanja, ponešto
metalne aplikacije.
objektima koje sam radio moralo biti Ernsta.
njih. Ja sam improvizirao. Moja predavanja
arhitektura je u meni, koliko sam ja sebe
sam trebao da pomognem studentima koji
Čak da ja i ne primijetim. Ja sam uvijek
su izgledala kao i ovaj razgovor. Vrlo brzo sam
napravio i koliko sam nekome uspio pomoći
su mi pomagali, materijal, to sam točno
smatrao legitimnim da ono što razumijem i
na užas svojih kolega prestao i davati ocjene.
da napravi sebe, itd. U tom pojmovnom
zaračunavao. Inače pravog honorara zapravo
osjećam u svojoj preradi, obradi i iskoristim.
Tko je nešto čuo od mene, čuo je, da li će moći
ciklusu riječ unutarnja arhitektura dobiva
nije bilo. Ja bih njima plaćao da mogu raditi
nešto od mene iskoristiti ja ne znam, ali da ja
ezoterično značenje.
Grimmer: Važna tema kod vas je grad kao takav, urbs koji
dajem recepte što raditi i misliti – neću. Osim
to što sam radio … Jednom mi je u Beču prišla
jedna ne baš sasvim mlada osoba i kaže: “Ja
vrlo sveobuhvatno vidite, za koji smatrate da ga treba
toga, urbanologija – to je poslastica, tko hoće
spoznati svim osjetilima. Sjećam se onoga lijepog teksta
nešto vidjeti i čuti, može shvatiti. Možda neće
područje – spomeničku gradnju. Ako se uzme u obzir
mene su mama i tata napravili na vašem
u kojem pišete o Bologni kao gradu iz čijih dubokih
moći primijeniti, tj. sigurno neće moći. Uvijek
vrijeme u kojemu ste to radili i ako se prisjetimo tih
spomeniku”. Ja sam to shvatio kao veliki
dvorišta dopire svježina, o Veneciji kao o već pomalo
sam bio epicentar nediscipline, trudio sam se
raznoraznih spomeničkih kompleksa i skulptura iz
kompliment. Onda sam se sjetio da su to
ocvaloj dami, sa karminom na usnama. To je opet
da budem zanimljiv.
tog vremena, onda je vaš rad nešto što je dijametralno
radili i po Grčkoj i da je to antički događaj.
asocijativna strana stvari.
Grimmer: Dotakli smo već vaše veliko
sam iz Mostara, ne znam kako da vam kažem,
suprotno. Vi niste stvarali djela koja izazivaju respekt,
Bogdanović: Pa hipostazirao sam gradove,
Grimmer: U tom smislu spominjete i “filozofske” šetnje
bili su za mene bića; kao takvi su me i
sa studentima po raznim zakucima grada.
Bogdanović: To je bilo veliko zadovoljstvo
privlačili. Pričati takve priče – uvijek su me
možda čak i strah, nego su to uvijek neka kraljevstva
Grimmer: Imate poseban odnos prema antici. U vašim
u koja se ulazi, kroz koja se prolazi, u kojima se može
varijantama kapitela susreću se antika i nadrealizam,
provesti i čitav dan.
ako se tako može reći.
smatrali malo ćaknutim. Vrlo brzo sam
meni, koji sam Beograđanin, to otkrivanje
Bogdanović: Da, to je to. Ali to ne mogu ne
Bogdanović: Cijela ta serija kapitela je nastala
shvatio da je urbanizam pun mafijaških,
grada, a studentima pogotovo. To su bile
povezati sa nadrealizmom, na kraju krajeva.
tako što sam ja samo obrnuo volute naopako
24
25
što je kabala, što je židovska mistika i tu sam
gradove...”. A ja sam pisao o svemu i svačemu,
jedna nova estetika. Njih ima jako mnogo. U
Bogdanović: On je bio bizaran. Meni je bilo
već shvatio da postoji jedan čudesan svijet koji
pisao sam o fasadama, bog zna kakve
knjizi Knjiga kapitela ih ima stotinu.
dovoljno što sam vidio da ga nije ostavilo
još nisam dodirnuo. Od tog trenutka kad se ta
sam poeme pravio na trulim fasadama, o
krovovima, o podrumima, o pticama.
Grimmer: U čemu je za njega bila ta bizarnost?
i onda je krenuo jedan sasvim nov sistem,
Grimmer: Antika vam je filozofski i po cijelom svom
kulturološkom kompleksu vrlo bliska.
ravnodušnim. U onom jadnom i bijednom
perspektiva i antiperspektiva rodila iz jedne
Beogradu, u socrealističkoj arhitekturi, u
igre riječi, krenuo sam i vrlo brzo napravio
praznini i nevolji, kako je sve to izgledalo,
projekt.
Bogdanović: Sve mi je blisko – vidite da se ne
čak mi je i riječ “bizarno” zvučala kao čitava
ustručavam pokrasti Dalmaciju i prenijeti je
simfonija.
usred Beograda [kuće na Avali iz 1952., op. a.].
Grimmer: Da li biste mogli nešto reći o dijelu vašeg
života poslije Beograda. Što u vašem profesionalnom i
Grimmer: Da li bogatstvo riječi može generirati i
umjetničkom životu znači period od 90-ih godina kada
bogatstvo forme?
ste došli u Beč?
Bogdanović: Apsolutno, apsolutno. Meni
Bogdanović: Tu negdje pred 90-te i 90-ih
Grimmer: Ipak, postoje li neka imena,
Bogdanović: Dobio sam poziv za taj natječaj.
su se riječi i forme u arhitekturi uvijek
živjeli smo u velikom strahu. Stambolićeva
periodi koji su vas osobito odredili.
Grimmer: Do toga spomenika ste došli natječajem.
To je dugačka priča. Vratio sam se iz rata;
isprepletale. Ja sam vrlo često na crtežima
kćerka je bila ubijena, a i Stambolić je bio
Bogdanović: Kad se u ranoj mladosti
ratovao sam kratko, ali sam uspio biti
ispisivao nešto, nepoznatim jezikom,
predviđen za ubojstvo, što se na kraju i
inficirate nadrealizmom, onda to mora ići
prostrijeljen ovdje, kroz lijevi kuk. Ratovao
nepoznatim znacima.
dogodilo. Premda je on bio veliki optimist,
ovako kako je išlo, nema onda više vraćanja na
sam istinski, istinski sam i dobio što mi treba.
klasično stupnjevanje ideja.
Bio sam pozvan na natječaj i nije me to tko zna
bio je ovdje i uvjeravao me: “Ajde, vrati se u
Grimmer: Odakle su dolazili? Iz podsvijesti?
Beograd, nemoj se bojati”. Totalno nije bio
kako oduševilo. Jer sam još uvijek mislio da
Bogdanović: Potpuno makinalno, ali da li
svjestan; to je velika tragedija i strašna priča.
ću ipak raditi pravu arhitekturu, nikad nisam
mi je u tom trenutku nešto značilo, ne znam.
To je kruna ludila i užasa. Mislim, cijela ta
gradu, nehijerarhijskom pristupu gradu i pojedinim
ni pomišljao da ću napraviti neki spomenik.
Vjerojatno.
priča, kako je sve to izvedeno, prosto, ne volim
arhitektonskim elementima koji ga čine vi možete i u
Vrijeme je prolazilo i baš mi ništa nije padalo
jednome objektu, u jednoj arhitekturi iščitati i grad kao
na pamet. I sretnem jednoga nadobudnog
Grimmer: Može se reći da ste se u posljednje vrijeme
Beču mi je korigirao jednu veliku zabludu, a
takav, kao na primjeru Karlove crkve u Beču.
kolegu koji me preporučio za natječaj, pa mi
više orijentirali na pisanje.
to je da ja bez Beograda ne postojim. To je tako
Grimmer: U tom vašem sveobuhvatnom pristupu
pričati o tome, ne volim se prisjećati. Život u
Bogdanović: Da, to me jako obuzimalo;
on kaže: “Čujem da ti radiš”, a ja neću priznati
Bogdanović: Zapravo nikad nisam prestajao
lijepo demantirano, znate. Poslije sam često
Karlova crkva mi je jedan od repera, a znate
da ne radim. “U čemu je ideja?” Ja počinjem
pisati. Stvar je u ovome – moj otac je bio
razmišljao što bi bilo da sam se otkačio ranije;
tko je mene upoznao s tom crkvom – Krleža.
lagati: “Znaš, židovsko groblje, pa ona aleja
književni kritičar, majka je isto bila profesor
ne znam što bi bilo. Po Europi spomenike
sigurno ne bih radio. Biroi su biroi, naš posao
On mi je rekao da je to genijalno i da to
koja ide, pa se stvara jedna vrsta perspektive. A
književnosti. Oni su bili u takvoj panici da ja
moram vidjeti. Mislim da mi je dao tu
onda odjednom”, ja sad samo da bih ipak nešto
na krenem među pisce, jer su pisce poznavali.
ima i lijepe strane, ali i teške, mučne i tragične
strane... ¶
početnu ideju, da ja tu nešto tražim, da
rekao kažem “ide antiperspektiva” i odmah
Plašili su se da me to ne povuče da ne ostanem
cijelu zgradu shvatim kao metaforu. Sabire
mu kažem: “Zdravo, moram ići”. “Što ti je”, veli
bez profesije. Moj ulazak u arhitektonsko
čitavo ljudsko poimanje arhitekture. Znate, u
on. A ja odem to nacrtati. I to mi je bila najveća
pisanje je bilo jedna rubrika u Borbi koja se
životu je tako da vam ponekad netko nešto
pouka u životu – da su u arhitekturi prave
zvala “Mali urbanizam”. Pisana je ironično, za
kaže usput, a poslije to ispadne jako važno. Ja
ideje često verbalne; mislim da je Loos govorio
inat velikim urbanizmima, to je bio podtekst.
sam Krležu vodio da vidi židovski spomenik.
da se dobra arhitektura može ispričati. Onda
Veliki urbanisti su pisali redakciji da to stvara
Mislim da je bio malo začuđen jer je stalno
za mene počinje novi svijet. Odjedanput, kad
zabunu kod ljudi: “Bogdanović, to su neke
Izvorno objavljeno u časopisu za arhitekturu i
govorio: “Čudno, bizarno, bizarno, bizarno...”
sam shvatio da to može tako, počeo sam tražiti
njegove ideje, mi moramo graditi socijalističke
kulturu »ORIS« VIII – 41 – 06
26
27
instead a
biography
Grimmer: If we were to introduce you, we would find
ourselves in quite a quandary because you have four
biographies – you are an architect, visual artist, writer,
politician. Do you have a hierarchy in that sense?
Bogdanović: I have always thought of it as
a whole. My personality was composite so
everything could be harmonized. I have often
thought about hierarchy. First of all, I am
an architect, somewhat a writer, somewhat
an artist and very little a politician. But that
very little was intense. However, I did not like
the politics, I was a politician because of the
situation at that time, I simply felt I should be
one. I reacted according to my temperament,
the counter reactions soon followed.
From the earliest age, Bogdan
Grimmer: As a professor of urbanism you stood up for
Bogdanović entered the world of
other qualities, not pragmatic, “useful” urbanism. You
art in the house of his father, the
stood up against the urbanism of quantity. However,
famous literary critic and theatre
the factors that determined your professional path are
director Milan Bogdanović, where
certainly much more complex.
Bogdanović: I applied to be an assistant
he met Miroslav Krleža at the age
bogdan bogdanović/
cities are beings
28
of seven. The circle of Belgrade
lecturer at the Chair of Urbanism because
surrealist around Marko Ristić
at the time when I graduated, architecture
Stambene kuće
decisively determined his personal
in Yugoslavia was poor, with only two types
Instituta za
style in three media – monument
of windows, so my previous fantasies could
hidrotehniku
architecture, drawing and
not have fitted into this poor, ostensibly
‘Jaroslav Černi’, Avala,
literature. In his artistic as well
functional architecture. My studies began
Beograd / Apartment
political life, Bogdanović never
before the war, I went to study architecture
houses for the
went the easy way, but always
from a surrealist milieu. I even made a
Hydrotechnical
swam against the current...
program and titled it Vers une architecture
Institute ‘Jaroslav
surealiste, paraphrasing Corbusier. I wanted
Černi’, Avala,
to create surrealist architecture, and that had
Belgrade • 1952–1954.
Interviewed by Vera Grimmer
to involve willing clients, such as the case
in Vienna, May 29, 2006
with the house for Tristan Tzara. During the
29
war, I had fun with Marko Ristić by ostensibly
Grimmer: Surrealism has been subversively present
helped the unfortunate. But it was great as a
to watch my back. I saw that he showed up,
designing a silly house for him, where you
for many centuries now – from Hieronimus Bosch or
speculation.
was reluctant to sit down, looking to sit in the
could slide from the upper floor to the lower
the amazing chambers of Mannerism, all the way to
one, full of surprises. If it were possible, that
Breton’s movement. It is a little bit suppressed, but today
Grimmer: Perhaps it would be interesting
whole conference hall went silent. I came to
is how I would have made architecture. In
is perhaps the time when it is resurfacing again, when
to find out something from your
him and asked him to sit by me. “I’d love that,”
experience with the surrealist circle.
my circle, we were all surrealists and left-
people are again interested in it, because in the totally
oriented, and when our leftist society arrived,
regulated time of globalization and profit, there is again
we saw that surrealist exhibitions were not
a need for certain anarchy.
front row, then giving up … I stood up and the
he said. We sat down, the silence grew deeper,
Bogdanović: You cannot speak of the
and then there was a round of applause for
moment I was accepted into the surrealist
Koča Popović.
going to happen. In despair, I decided to go for
Bogdanović: I would like to see your
society without giving an overview of the
urbanism because it was in a way a scientific
prediction come true. However, it does not
moral and literary situation in Yugoslavia
Grimmer: Your drawings of these fantastic
discipline.
matter now, but then again it does. I have
at that time. Surrealism was from Belgrade,
creatures – creatures and houses at the same time, in a
way they remind me of oneiric creatures of Max Ernst.
But the radical change in my life
always thought that surrealism draws deep
but inseparable from Krleža. Krleža did not
occurred when I won the competition for
roots from history, history of art, history of
like surrealism, but wasn’t allowed to admit
Bogdanović: You guessed it right, Max Ernst
the monument to Jewish victims in Belgrade.
civilization. I suppose that the true surrealists
it. They adored him, and he had a very good
is my idol. Not Picasso, Picasso is powerful,
All of a sudden, a new world of symbols and
of that time would not mind. Surrealism is a
relationship with them. Due to this phase
bur Ernst was much closer to me.
comparative meanings opened. That is when I
continuation of romanticism.
and his associating with the surrealists, he
started to think in strata terms. I am a modern
architect, but I can also think in a non-
Grimmer: Bretonian surrealism was also enriched in the
contemporary way. My first houses on Avala
context of the development of psychoanalysis.
Bogdanović: You should accept this as an
near Belgrade from the early 50s were full
made it onto the Communist Party’s black
Grimmer: If we look at your monuments, for
list, I think he was never forgiven for this,
example, Ernst also has such sculptures, for
but this was always suppressed. There was
example the sculpture Capricorn, made
a circle of Bretonian surrealists around
of concrete with metal applications.
of reminiscence. My friend was an engineer
arbitrary play of words, but psychoanalysis
Marko Ristić, Dušan Matić and Aleksandar
Bogdanović: I think there was something
at the Hydro-technical Institute, so these
draws its roots from romanticism. Perhaps
Vučo, and there was another surrealist group
Ernst-like in the things I made as a
houses were intended for their employees.
it is absurd for me to say that, but it seems to
that was not Bretonian, but Aragonian, who
constructor, in those monumental structures,
They could have easily been somewhere in
be so.
were Stalinist. From the Belgrade surrealist
without me even noticing it. I always thought
group later emerged excellent generals in the
it legitimate to use the things I understand
revolution – Koča Popović and others.
and feel in my processing.
the Mediterranean, but I did not think they
Grimmer: Surely you can argue this.
would look Mediterranean when I built
them. They were built in the old fashioned
Bogdanović: To penetrate the lower layers,
way, completely made of stone. The houses
deep down, just take romanticist literature
secret Bretonian. The Party merely tolerated
Grimmer: One of the topics important to
were surreal, but were not widely approved
and surrealism – Freudianism came out of this
such views. But he remained a surrealist
you is the city as such, the urbs you see very
of in my profession, since everybody was so
spiritual state.
to the bone, to the last breath. When I was
comprehensively, that you think should be
mayor, I met him in a situation when he was
comprehended with all senses. I remember the
modern, modern to the bone. They barely
Grimmer: Perhaps it came to be from the illness of time.
managed to detach from social realism, and
To be precise, I think Popović was a
proscribed. I invited him to a medal awards
nice text in which you write about Bologna as a
Bogdanović: Yes, from the illness of time
ceremony, and he showed up all panicking.
city from whose deep backyards comes freshness,
thing again. But they did not understand the
Freud drew his great speculation. It is a
You have to know that I as mayor pulled
about Venice as a lady past its prime with lipstick
surrealist basis.
completely different matter how much it
various stunts because I had Ivan Stambolić
on. That again is the associative side of things.
then somebody comes along to do the same
30
31
Bogdanović: Well, I hypostasized cities, they
walks with your students through different hidden
were beings for me, and as such they attracted
corners of the city.
me. Everybody thought I was a little bit wacky
Bogdanović: That was a great pleasure for
for telling such stories. Very soon I realized
me, as a citizen of Belgrade, and especially for
that urbanism is full of mafia and political
the students, this discovery of the city. Those
traps, that you stumble over the interests of
were the generations that came from outside.
the underground. I always tried to distance
This crawling into cellars, climbing onto attics,
myself from all that in running this urbanism,
discussions with various “original types” in
I was in the situation where I was elected as
bars. Many topics were discussed, we just took
assistant professor. I then changed the title
care not to discuss politics.
of the course – not Urbanism but Urbanology.
I was free to think about the city without
Grimmer: In the book Zaludna mistrija – the book on the
practical urbanism. And practical urbanism
brotherhood of futile and tragic constructors – Palladio,
is a dark affair, whether you like it or not, it is
Borromini, Piranesi, Gaudi, you speak about the notion
politics. It was greatly felt in socialism as well.
of internal architecture.
Bogdanović: Zaludna mistrija, it is a capital
Grimmer: How did you treat your students during
book, and it brought too many complications.
your pedagogical years? Did you treat them as equals in
They said, “What is he writing, he should be
discussion, or was it all ex catedra?
teaching how to build cities, how to build
Bogdanović: It was never ex catedra. I never
socialist towns.” The notion of internal
held the same lecture twice. Professors always
architecture was thought of ironically. I am
carry scripts around with them, read from
mocking a little the vocabulary of my trade
them. I improvised. My lectures were just like
in that definition cycle so let me say what
this interview. Very soon I stopped grading
internal architecture is. Internal architecture
my students, to the horror of my colleagues.
is in me, how much I made myself and how
Whoever heard something from me, heard
much I helped someone to make themselves
it. Now, were they able to use something
etc. In that notional cycle, the word internal
from me, I don’t know, but I did not want to
architecture has an esoteric meaning.
give recipes what to do and think. Besides,
Partizanska akro-nekropola u Mostaru /
urbanology is a treat. Anyone who wants
Partisan acro-necropolis in Mostar • 1959–1965.
to see and hear something, can. Perhaps
they will not be able to apply it, that is, they
certainly will not. I was always the epicentre
of indiscipline, I always tried to be interesting.
Grimmer: In that sense you mention “philosophical”
‘Partizanska nekropola je bila
Mostar u malom, replika grada na
Neretvi, njegov idealni dijagram.’ /
32
Grimmer: We have already discussed another great
field of yours, monument construction. If we take into
‘Partisan necropolis was a model
of Mostar, the city on the river
Neretva, its ideal diagram.’
account the time you made it in, and if we recall the
various monumental complexes and sculpture of that
time, then your work is something that is diametrically
opposite. You did not create works that command
33
respect or even fear, these were always kingdoms you
ancient times. Your capitals combine antiquity
entire human notion of architecture. You
enter, you go through, and spend the entire day in.
with surrealism, if I can put it that way.
know, it is very important that once in a while
Bogdanović: Yes, that is it. In the end, they
Bogdanović: This whole series of capitals
somebody tells you something incidentally
cannot but to connect it to surrealism. How
was created by me turning the volutes upside
that later turns out to be quite important. I
was it even possible for these monuments
down, creating a completely new system, a
took Krleža to see a Jewish monument. I think
to be made, why were these monuments
new aesthetics. There are a lot of them. The
he was a little bit amazed, because he kept
even being made, why did I receive
Book of Capitals has hundreds of them.
saying, “Weird, bizarre, bizarre, bizarre…”.
orders? At a certain moment, when we had
already been completely through with the
Grimmer: Antiquity seems very close to you, in
Russians, monumental architecture was still
philosophical terms and in its entire cultural complex.
dominated by the Soviet model – fist, energy,
Bogdanović: Everything was close to
Grimmer: Why was it bizarre to him?
Bogdanović: He was bizarre. I was pleased
that he was not left indifferent by it. In the
the future etc. And then comes a darker
me – you saw that I did not hesitate to steal
poor and miserable socialist architecture of
older guy who starts to do things differently,
from Dalmatia and transfer it to the center of
Belgrade, in the emptiness and trouble, as it
with choreography, ballet. And the head of
Belgrade (houses on Avala, 1952).
seemed to me then, even the word “bizarre”
the Party agreed to everything I did, just to
sounded like a symphony.
break loose from the Soviet model. It was
Grimmer: Are there any names or periods
not easy. The grand masters could not break
that defined you specifically?
Grimmer: You won the competition for that monument.
loose from it. And then there was something
Bogdanović: When you are bitten by the
Bogdanović: I was invited to that
else … I do not believe now that it affected
surrealism bug early in your youth, then it
competition. It is a long story. I came back
orders, I did not charge any money for the
had to go like it went with me, there was no
from the war. I was in combat very briefly
monuments. I strictly covered my costs. I had
return to the classic grading of ideas.
but I managed to get myself shot through the
to have a car because of all the travelling, I
left hip. I was really in combat, and I truly got
needed something to support the students
Grimmer: In your comprehensive and non-
what I needed. I was invited, but I was not
who were helping me, to buy the material, I
hierarchical approach to the city and certain
very much pleased by it because I thought
charged correctly. There were no real fees.
architectural elements that make it, you can read
I was going to do some real architecture, I
I would have paid them to do what I was
an entire city from only one building, like for
never thought I would be doing a monument.
doing … Once I was approached in Vienna by
example from the St. Charles Church in Vienna.
Time went by and not a single idea crossed
a not so young person who told me, “I come
Bogdanović: Yes, I was completely
my mind. I met the eager colleague who
from Mostar. I don’t know how to tell you, but
overwhelmed by it, the St. Charles Church
recommended me for the competition. He
I was conceived on one of your monuments.” I
is one of my landmarks, and you know who
said, “I hear you are working,” and I was
received that as a great compliment. I recalled
introduced me to that church – Krleža. He
reluctant to admit I was not. When he asked
that similar things were done in Greece,
told me it was brilliant and that I should see
what my idea was, I started lying, “You know,
making it an ancient event.
it. I think it was him who gave me this initial
the Jewish cemetery and the tree-lined
Grimmer: You have a special relation with
34
idea to start exploring, to consider the entire
Memorijalni park za žrtve fašizma u Vukovaru / Memorial Park
boulevard creates a certain perspective as
building as a metaphor. It epitomizes the
for the victims of fascism in Vukovar • 1978–1980.
it goes along,” and then I said, “followed by
35
anti-perspective”. At that moment I just said,
“Bye, I have to leave now”. He was puzzled. And
I went home and put it to paper. And I think
Bogdanović: Basically, I never stopped
Bogdanović: We were living in great fear
writing. The thing is that my father was a
around the 1990s. Stambolić’s daughter was
literary critic and my mother a professor of
murdered, and Stambolić’s murder was also
this was the greatest moral in my life that
literature. They were in such a panic, they
plotted, and eventually it happened. He was a
in architecture actual ideas are often very
were concerned that I could become a writer
great optimist though, he used to come here
much verbal, I think that Loos said that good
because they knew a lot of them. They were
trying to persuade me to return to Belgrade,
architecture can be explained with words. A
concerned that I would get drawn into it
without fear. He was totally unaware of the
whole new world opened to me after that.
and lose my job. My entry into architectural
situation, it is a great tragedy and a horrific
All of a sudden, when I realized that it can
writing was in a section of Borba called
story.
be done, I began exploring Kabbalah, Jewish
“Little urbanism”. It was written ironically, to
mysticism, and then I realized that there is
spite big urbanism, that was its subtext. Big
That is the height of madness and horror.
I mean, the way this entire story turned out,
another amazing world I have not touched
urbanists wrote letters to the editors that it
how simple, I really do not like talking about
yet. From the moment when this perspective
greatly confused people. “Bogdanović has his
it and recalling it. Living in Vienna corrected
and anti-perspective was born from a play of
ideas, but we have to build socialist towns …”
a great delusion in my life, and that is that I
words, I started and very quickly completed
And I wrote about many things, I wrote
cannot exist without Belgrade. That idea was
the project.
about façades, wrote God knows what kinds
so nicely rejected, you know. Later I often
Grimmer: Can richness of words generate
of poems about deteriorating façades, roofs,
thought what would have happened if I had
basements, birds…
gone crazy earlier. I cannot tell. I surely would
not have been building monuments around
richness of form?
Bogdanović: Absolutely. I would be lying
Grimmer: Can you say something about your life after
if I said that I always whisper something to
Belgrade? What did your coming to Vienna in the 1990s
nice sides, but also darker, painful and tragic
myself when I am drawing. But perhaps I am
mean in a professional and artistic sense?
sides. ¶
Europe. Offices are offices, our job has its
not lying. For me, words and forms always
overlap in architecture. Very often I wrote
things on my drawings in unknown languages,
unknown symbols.
Grimmer: Where did this come from? The
subconscious?
Spomenik palim borcima – Čuvarima
Bogdanović: Completely automatically, but I
slobode na Klisu kraj Splita / Monument
do not know whether it meant something to
for the fallen members of antifascist
me at that moment, probably it did.
resistance, Guardians of Freedom, on Klis
near Split • 1982–1987. • Razmontiran
Grimmer: Lately you have been much
Originally published in the magazine for
1996. godine / Dismantled in 1996.
more oriented to writing.
architecture and culture »ORIS« VIII – 41 – 06
36
37
Popina kod Trstenika
Ratnički mauzolej / Warrior‘s
Mausoleum • 1979–1981.
Seoska škola filozofije
arhitekture u Malom Popoviću
/ Village School for Philosophy
of Architecture in Mali Popović
38
39
bogdan bogdanović
ukleti neimar/ the doomed architect
Korišteni citati iz / Quotations from
Izložba je dio dugoročnih UIII
Bogdanović, Bogdan: Ukleti neimar / The
projekata / Exhibition is a part
Gliptoteka HAZU • Medvedgradska 2
Doomed Architect. Novi Sad: Mediterran
of AIIR long term projects
9 – 31. listopada / October 9 – 31, 2012
Publishing, 2011, str./p. 142, 143, 237, 248
Mnemosyne – Kazalište sjećanja /
Curators / Kustosi Iveković, Rada, Bogdanović, Bogdan:
Ivan Ristić • Sonja Leboš
Eseji, Beograd: Prosveta, 1986. str./p. 7 1
U suradnji sa / In cooperation with
Maja Kućan, kustosica zbirke Donacija
BB, JUSP Jasenovac / Curator of the
Fotografije / Photos courtesy of
Architekturzentrum Wien
Mnemosyne – Theatre of Memories
http://www.theatreofmemories.org
aRs PUBLICAe /1%zaumjetnost
http://1postozaumjetnost.wordpress.com
Zahvaljujemo / We thank to
Collection Donation by BB, Memorial
Fotografija na stranicama / Photo pages
Friedrich Achleitner • Dušan Bogdanović
Site Jasenovac
12–13 © Andrija Zelmanović
• Robert Janovsky • Petar Milat • Dean
a01, 14–15 © Damil Kalogjera
Mileta • Aneta Mudronja Pletenac •
39 Jadranka Vinterhalter arhiv
Ronald Panza • Vjeran Pavlaković •
Oblikovanje postava / Exhibition design
Sonja Leboš
Medijska instalacija / Media Installation
Izložba je inicirana od strane
Ivan Marušić Klif
Austrijskog kulturnog foruma u
Autori tekstova u katalogu /
Authors of the texts in the catalogue
Vera Grimmer • Sonja Leboš
Grafičko oblikovanje projekta /
Graphic design Dejan Kršić
pisma / typography Marlene • Typonine
[Nikola Djurek • Typonine] • ITC Fat Face
Zagrebu i organizirana u suradnji s /
Exhibition is initated by the Austrian
Monika Platzer • Manja Ristić • Andrija
Rusan • Dietmar Steiner • Saša Šimpraga •
Aleš Vodopivec • Nikola Zelmanović
Naročita zahvala / Special thanks
Cultural Forum in Zagreb and
Ksenija Anastasijević Bogdanović • Vera
organized in cooperation with
Grimmer • Damil Kalogjera • Ariana Kralj
Architekturzentrum Wien
• Sarita Matijević • Milorad Mladenović •
Ksenija Anastasijević Bogdanović
Josip Ušaj • Jadranka Vinterhalter • Andrija
Udruga za interdisciplinarna i
Zelmanović • Želimir Žilnik
interkulturalna istraživanja (UIII) /
Nakladnik / Publisher UIII / AIIR
Association for Interdisciplinary &
Za nakladnika / For the publisher
Intercultural Research (AIIR)
Sonja Leboš
Gliptoteka HAZU / Glyptotheque –
Tisak / Print Tiskara Zelina
Croatian Academy of Sciences & Art
Naklada / Edition 200
Vera Grimmer
Cijena / Price 50 kn
Spomen-područje Jasenovac /
ISBN 978-953-55557-5-9
Jasenovac Memorial Site
Hrvatska akademija
znanosti i umjetnosti
Gliptoteka
Podrška / Support
Austrijski kulturni forum
Ministarstvo kulture RH

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