Sir Terrence Mathews - ICCC

The Indonesia Canada Chamber of Commerce Monthly Newsletter
Sir Terrence
Why a
is Investing in
Economic Community:
Will or Won’t Canadian
Businesses Benefit?
IKEA Indicator:
Buy Indonesia
Discrimination Law
in Indonesia
Welcome to the October edition of Bahasa
Business, the Indonesia Canada Chamber of
Commerce (ICCC) monthly newsletter.
This month’s Bahasa Business features our
very first billionaire (and that’s in US dollars,
not Rupiah) as we were provided a very
special opportunity to conduct a question and
answer session with Sir Terrence Mathews,
a Canadian business magnate, serial high
tech entrepreneur, and chairman of two
investment firms Mitel and Wesley Clover, the
latter of which is investing to develop hightech companies in Indonesia. We asked him,
why Indonesia?
Friday, October 31th, 2014
Dinner : 18.00 – 19.00
Bowling: 19.00 – 21.00
EMAIL : [email protected]
Jakarta Bowling Center
Gelanggang Mahasiswa Soemantri Brodjonegoro
Jl. H.R Rasuna Said Kav. C-22, Jakarta Selatan
Many Bahasa Business readers are looking
at their calendars with awe, realizing that
there are only 2 months left until 2015 and
while we always look forward to a new year
with anticipation, 2015 marks the year the
ASEAN Economic Community is implemented,
leaving us wondering about the impact it will
have on Canadian businesses. Those concerns
are answered in the article The ASEAN
Economic Community: Will or Won’t Canadian
Businesses Benefit?
The team at SSEK, whose expertise embraces
all essential areas of the law and has been
honed over two decades of meeting the
legal needs of their clients, have contributed
another great piece on Indonesia’s
discrimination law. The article gives great
insight into how the discrimination law is
more or less pieced together from other
existing laws.
In another win for Indonesia, IKEA has
announced that they will be open for sales
in a few weeks and as Lars Henriksson from
Moneyweek has said, the �IKEA Indicator’ is a
great gauge to predict an upcoming consumer
market boom. You can read more about the
IKEA opening and find the link to download
their first Indonesian catalogue, on page 8.
This month we do hope to see you in person
at some key events including the Canadian
Giving Thanks Dinner on October 11th (only
a handful of tickets left), the ICCC breakfast
discussion on October 28th, and the Calindo
Halloween bowling tournament on October
Thanks everybody.
Thank you to our sponsors
Edwin Pieroelie
Secretarie-General ICCC
Law in Indonesia
By Richard D. Emmerson ([email protected]) of SSEK Legal Consultants
Indonesia does not have an overarching anti-discrimination law.
Rather, a patchwork of laws and sector-specific regulations prohibit
discrimination and encourage equality. The relevant laws are as
1945 Constitution
The 1945 Constitution is the basis for the government of Indonesia and
it carries the highest legal authority. Article 27 of the 1945 Constitution
states that: (i) all citizens shall have equal status accorded by law and
the government, and are obliged to respect the law and government
without exception; and (ii) each citizen shall be entitled to work and to
have a reasonable standard of living.
Labor Law (Law No. 13 of 2013 on Labor)
The prevailing Indonesian labor laws reflect anti-discrimination
principles. Each employee shall have equal opportunity without
discrimination to obtain work and shall be entitled to equal treatment
from the employer without discrimination (Articles 5 and 6 of the Labor
Law). The Labor Law stipulates that termination of an employment
relationship shall not be permitted if it is based on the ideology,
religion, political inclination, ethnic group, race, social group, gender,
physical condition or marital status of the employee (Article 153(i) of
the Labor Law).
Law No. 21 of 1999 and Law No. 80 of 1957
To ensure the protection of employees’ rights and to prohibit
discrimination, Law No. 21 of 1999 ratifies International Labor
Organization (ILO) Convention No. 111 concerning Discrimination
in Respect of Employment and Occupation, and Law No. 80 of 1957
ratifies ILO Convention No. 100 concerning Equal Remuneration for
Men and Women for Work of Equal Value.
Strengthening the equal remuneration regime, Article 3 of Government
Regulation No. 8 of 1981 regarding Protection of Wages (GR 8) states that
in determining an employee’s wage, an employer may not discriminate
between male and female workers who perform work of equal value.
Law No. 4 of 1997 on Disabled People
Article 14 of Law No. 4 of 1997 on Disabled People requires an employer
to employ a minimum of one disabled person for every 100 people
it employs. The disabled employee must meet the applicable work
requirements and qualifications for the given position.
High-technology companies must employ one disabled person
regardless of the number of employees (i.e., even if they employ fewer
than 100 people).
The elucidation of Law No. 4 of 1997 states that disabled employees are
entitled to equal treatment without discrimination including, without
limitation, as to wages, title and position.
Law No. 40 of 2008 on the Elimination of Racial and Ethnic
Law No. 40 of 2008 prohibits discrimination on the basis of race or
ethnicity in the civil, political, economic, social and cultural fields. Race
is defined as a group of people based on physical characteristics and
lineage. Ethnic group is defined as a group of people based on faith,
norms, customs, traditions, linguistic norms, history, geography and
The above laws provide the main anti-discrimination framework for
Indonesia. Filling out this framework and providing protections on
issues from termination to menstruation leave are a hodgepodge of
regulations and provisions.
Employment Background Investigations
When conducting interviews and background checks, employers must
be guided by the broad provisions of Articles 5 and 6 of the Labor Law,
which provide that employees shall have equal opportunity without
discrimination to obtain work, and shall be entitled to equal treatment
from the employer without discrimination on the basis of sex, ethnic
group, race, religion, skin color, political orientation or disability. It is
not considered discriminatory for an employer to select candidates
based on abilities required for the job (i.e., employing a person with
a certain language ability to serve customers speaking that language
or dialect).
Leaves of Absence
Female employees are not obliged to work on the first and second days
of menstruation if they feel sick and inform the employer. However, this
provision should be further regulated in the employment agreement,
company regulation or CLA.
A pregnant employee is entitled to three months of maternity leave with
full pay, consisting of one and one-half months prior to delivery and
one and one-half months after delivery. This three-month period may
be divided differently based on a doctor’s certificate or by agreement
of the parties. The pre-delivery time can be extended to up to three
months with a doctor’s certificate confirming that this is medically
necessary. Upon the employee’s return to work, the employee must
be given reasonable time to breastfeed the baby. In the event of a
miscarriage, a female employee will be entitled to one and one-half
months of paid leave (Article 82.2 of the Labor Law). Paternity leave of
two days is given to the father upon the birth of a child.
There are no specific rules concerning sexual harassment in connection
with the employer-employee relationship. However, most company
regulations and CLA’s note that sexual harassment is considered a
serious violation.
The basic legislation governing labor unions in Indonesia is Law No. 21
of 2000 regarding Labor Unions (Labor Union Law). A group of at least 10
workers may establish a labor union. Based on the 1945 Constitution,
labor unions, by law, are required to be democratic, independent and
responsible, and not to base their membership on politics, religion,
race and/or gender.
The Labor Union Law imposes criminal sanctions on anyone who
engages in certain anti-union activity. Such activities include: (i)
preventing workers from forming a union, becoming a member of a
union or conducting union activities; (ii) terminating an employee
or reducing his or her salary for conducting union activities; (iii)
conducting an anti-union campaign; and (iv) intimidation in any form.
Sir Terrence Mathews
Why a Billionairre
Sir Terrence Mathews
Chairman of Mitel and Wesley Clover.
is Investing in
Bahasa Business is very fortunate to have been granted an exclusive question and answer session with Sir Terrence Mathews, a
Canadian business magnate, high-tech entrepreneur addict, and billionaire.
Sir Terrence Mathews has founded or funded over 100 companies in the high-tech communications field, most notably Mitel and
Newbridge Networks and has his sights on developing many Indonesian high-tech companies through his investment firm Wesley
Sir Terrence Mathews, thank you so much
for spending your time with us today. We
have to ask, with over a billion dollars in
the bank, why don’t you just retire?
It is not in my blood to sit still. Indonesia has
some of the most beautiful beaches in the
world but I couldn’t be out on the sand for
more than 30 minutes before I need to find
something to do. To me creating a successful
business is fun, and I want to have fun. I am
really looking forward to having a lot of fun
creating businesses here in Indonesia.
So why Indonesia?
The business opportunities between Canada
and Indonesia, and the whole region in fact,
is really coming on the Canadian radar and
has piqued my interest for quite some time.
There are some key demographics that
attracted me to Indonesia but getting to know
the people and to see the country first hand
has confirmed that coming here is a great
Can you expand on that with some
Indonesia is a country of roughly 250 million
people where half of them are under 30 years
of age. That is an incredibly large workforce of
willing and eager talent. Combine that with
a fairly high unemployment rate amongst
youth, which to some may look bleak but to
me creates an environment where a large part
of the population is hungry for opportunity,
hungry to be given a chance. On the flipside
of the statistics I have had the chance to meet
hundreds of Indonesian youth face-to-face,
to talk to them, and they have impressed me
with their knowledge, ingenuity, and brain
How do you plan to develop new hi-tech
companies in Indonesia?
We have a model
whereby we look
sector to join us in
a 50/50 investment
Wesley Clover will
and guide hi-tech
companies here in
Indonesia to levels
of success they may
not have achieved without our experience
and network. I expect these companies to
eventually employ many other Indonesians
and become ICT players on an international
You are very confident, but is your model
applicable to Indonesia?
Despite thousands of books written on how to
develop a successful business, I have honed
the key components down to what I call “my
secret sauce”, with the four key ingredients
1. Allowing youth to be the business growth engine.
2. Including ownership in the business DNA.
3. Enforcing a strict monthly reporting policy that highlights �sales for the
month’ in the first sentence.
4. Seeking advice from successful industry professionals who are retired and are willing to generously provide their time and knowledge.
This secret sauce has been the reason of my
business success whereby 9 out of 10 of my
high-tech ventures have been successful and
the few that failed was due to extraneous
circumstances - none of them went bankrupt.
Compare that to venture capital organizations
which have a success rate of about 10%.
And what type of high-tech companies are
you looking to develop?
I would be supportive of any high-tech
company with a good proposal but we get a lot
of support from telecommunication partners.
I am very excited about the possibilities
here in Indonesia and I expect Wesley Clover
investments to be supportive of Indonesian
high-tech companies that focus on nextgeneration Cloud and SaaS applications,
services and hardware for fixed and mobile
customer engagement, analytics and more.
Sir Terrence, where do Bahasa Business
readers go for more information?
For more information your readers can visit
our website at
and we have also appointed Mr. Andy Cobham
as our Indonesian representative responsible
for building strong partnerships with both
national and multi-national companies doing
business in Indonesia.
Connecting at
The September 2014 ICCC Biztro networking event was held at the Frontpage restaurant
in the Plaza Gani Djemat Building and attended by a crowd of around 50 people
which included many guests from outside of the regular Indonesia-Canada community. In addition to new business
connections being made participants won vouchers for both MAP and Maroush. (And we must say Canadian Women’s
Association President Stephanie Cooke did an excellent job presenting the winners!) Very many thanks to Lasalle College
International Jakarta for sponsoring the Biztro. Mark your calendars to attend the October Biztro event on October 16th,
2014 at the Shutters Bar, Mercantile Athletic Club. See you there!
The time is right
to join
The Indonesia Canada Chamber of Commerce (ICCC) is a membership organization that exists primarily to promote positive business growth for
social and economic development both in Indonesia and in Canada.
The ICCC vision is to be recognized as the home of ideas and information to best support the connecting of Canadian and Indonesian business
interests and our organization works at the grass-roots business level to nurture local business relationship networks for the benefit of all our
There is truth in the phrase “strength in numbers” and we invite all businesses in the Indonesian-Canadian community to join us.
Below is a list of the ICCC Board of Directors who extend a warm welcome to join our organization.
Chris Bendl
Richard D. Emmerson
Vice President
Nyoto Irawan
Vice President
Dean Boulding
Chairperson – CSR & Sustainable
Development Committee
Tracy Reynolds
– Policy Committee
Stephanie Cooke
Henry Lowis
Board Member
Helmi Maemozax
Board Member
Derrick McClure
Board Member
Vice President
– Event Committee
Neil Prendergast
Tony Costa
Luc St. Amour
Board Member
Cameron Tough
Edwin Pieroelie
Gregory Elms
Board Member
Helen M. Vanwel
Charles T. Kidd
Aditi Dixit
Ipung Kurnia
Secretary General & Chairperson
– Communications Committee
Mario Babin
– Membership Committee
Board Member
Board Member
Board Member
Board Member
Board Member
contact our ICCC Secretariat at +62-21-527-7890 or [email protected] for further information.
The ASEAN Economic Community:
Will or Won’t Canadian
Businesses Benefit?
In a little over 14 months the ASEAN Economic Community
(AEC) initiative will be implemented and 10 ASEAN member states (Brunei
Darussalam, Cambodia, Indonesia, Lao PDR, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand
and Vietnam) will begin a free movement of goods, services, investment, capital and skilled labor between their
As pointed out by KPMG, on a macro level the AEC is expected to bolster the global importance of the ASEAN as an economic block as it
increases inter-trade between member countries. On a micro level there are a lot of details to be worked out as critical agreements like
a competition policy, intellectual property rights, e-commerce transactions, and the introduction of a more comprehensive investment
protection and dispute resolution system.
The bigger question for Canadian companies, however, is �Is the AEC good or bad for Canadian companies?” and the answer is good.
First, Canada and ASEAN have a long and positive relationship with ASEAN statistics indicating trade between ASEAN and Canada
grew by 9.2%, from US$12.3 billion in 2012 to US$13.5 billion in 2013 and that the stock value of Canadian direct investment in ASEAN
reached almost CAD$ 7 billion in 2012, improving nearly 20% year-on-year.
Second, ASEAN can very much benefit from Canada’s achievements, experiences and expertise in a wide range of areas, including
energy, transportation, finance, Public-Private Partnership (PPP) and promotion of innovation. In short, the AEC will be an attractive
(and welcomed) destination for Canada’s trade and investment. ASEAN and Canada are also working to strengthen cooperation in
energy, including through the development of renewable and alternative energy sources and the promotion of clean energy technology.
Third, Canada has been actively growing ASEAN ties as reflected through Canada-ASEAN enhanced partnership program and the
development of the Canada-ASEAN Business Council two years ago which aims to promote business opportunities and build business
networks between the two sides.
Finally, the relationship between Canada and ASEAN goes beyond business and into socio-cultural cooperation which defines Canada
not just as a business partner to ASEAN but as a friend.
The Indonesian government has also taken steps at improving the relations of government officials and business players from Canada
and Indonesia, and are actively encouraging improved connectivity between ASEAN and Canada, particularly through the availability
of direct flights between cities in ASEAN and Canada, institutional cooperation and people-to-people business. The Indonesian
government is confident ASEAN will develop into a solid economy and as a single market and a production base, ASEAN will offer many
business opportunities to Canadian companies.
New York is known as the Big Apple, and Jakarta is known as the Big
Durian. Like the Durian fruit, there is a lot to dislike about Jakarta, but
there is also a lot to love.
For those of you who have not watched “Jalanan” it is time to add it
to your must-see movie bucket list. Jalanan is the 6-year labor of love
documentary by Daniel Ziv, a Canadian documentary filmmaker, author
and political commentator who lives in Ubud, Bali. In short, Daniel Ziv
has gone beyond the negatives Jakarta is known for (and which are so
easy to expose) and captured a slice of beauty of the Big Durian and a
reflection of Indonesia as a whole.
“Jalanan” documents the daily life of three musicians (Boni, Ho & Titi)
as they face the challenges of making ends meet busking on Jakarta’s
ubiquitous and well-worn buses. The main characters are intriguing and
enticing. Titi is a mother of three children who are being cared for by
others in different parts of the country. Because of her limited income
she must decide which of her children will receive care-money when she
can afford it. Boni is the penultimate dreamer whose imagination lies in
sharp contrast to his reality. At night he sleeps in (what looks to be) a very
stinky and dirty tunnel, but during the day wanders some of the world’s
most luxurious shopping malls. He shares with the audience that one day
he wants to live in a five star hotel. Ho, meanwhile, provides a balance
to Boni and Titi who were easy to like. Ho is rough and his actions leave
a bad taste in the viewer’s mouth but his rawness also provides a nonfiltered view of Jakarta. Their lives are off-putting but their experiences,
their spirit, and their own touching compilations about God and the
world reflected on their existence is ultimately endearing.
In an earlier interview with the Wall Street Journal director Daniel Ziv
shares that the trio’s songs reflect the social and political conditions of
the time, as well as their own questions about love and identity in life,
“It’s often just described as a film about street musicians, and it’s not
really. It’s a portrait of Indonesia.”
In a testament to the power of the film, it won the prize for best
documentary when it had its world premiere at the Busan International
Film Festival in South Korea and The Melbourne International Film
Festival (MIFF) has just announced that JALANAN has picked up its
top prize, the People’s Choice Award, for Best Documentary making
JALANAN the first Indonesian film to win MIFF in the festival’s 63-year
For Bahasa Business readers
who have already seen
the movie and are looking
forward to more of Daniel
Ziv’s work, he is currently
working on a book about
Indonesian identity, to
be published in Bahasa
For those in Bali, Daniel
is a regular speaker at
the annual Ubud Writers
& Readers Festival and a
founding member of Hubud
– Bali’s first co-working
space. Daniel serves as
co-curator and host of
TEDxUbud, and as a creative
consultant to Bali-based
IKEA Indicator:
Buy Indonesia
Lars Henriksson from Moneyweek wrote that when Ikea, the giant
Swedish furniture retailer, starts operations in a country, it turns into
a pretty good sign that a big consumer spending boom is on its way.
Previous Ikea examples include Japan (1974), Hong Kong (1975),
Singapore (1978), Taiwan (1994), Malaysia (1996), China (1998), and
Thailand (2011).
they demand high quality items at the right price,
both of which Ikea delivers. I still remember my first
shopping experience to Ikea when I lived in Canada
as a student. I was instantly hooked and I am very
proud to say that we now have our own Ikea in
In a few weeks time, the first Ikea store will open in Indonesia.
Zuch Exchange reports that IKEA is not the only
company targeting growth from Indonesia's middle
class. Japan's Honda Motor Co., Nissan Motor
Co., and electronics maker Sharp Corp. have also
announced plans to expand in Indonesia, investing
more than $1 billion in total. Foreign direct
investment in the country, Southeast Asia's largest
economy, stood at a record $20 billion last year.
Reportedly costing USD 100 million dollars, the huge blue and yellow
building is clearly visible on the toll road when passing Alam Sutra
retail park. Indonesia's PT Hero Supermarket has signed a seven year
franchise agreement with Inter IKEA Systems BV. In terms of growth,
Indonesia has a population of millions of potential customers enjoying
a growing disposable income, and with PT Hero Supermarket’s
experience running nearly 500 grocery outlets, we do not expect the
plan is to stop at one Ikea.
Over the years many middle to upper income level Indonesians have
been seen carrying Ikea merchandise in the instantly recognizable Ikea
bags at airports, having made their purchases in Malaysia, Thailand, or
Singapore. Now they can shop in their own backyard.
Said Ipung Kurnia, President of PT Hero Supermarket, “I am very
excited about Ikea opening here in Indonesia and I think it will resonate
very well with Indonesians. Indonesians are quite savvy shoppers and
If you can’t wait for the IKEA stores to open and
would like a preview of their Indonesian catalogue,
you can download it at the following link:
Exploring Indonesia
in a Suite and Tie
By James Clinton
C linton
Last year, in my first year of Law at Queen’s
University, I told my friends that I wanted to go
to Indonesia for the year end break. “Awesome,
Bali!” was their initial reaction, but I had other
plans in mind.
Indonesia had caught my attention in
newspapers, on televised reports, and also in
several of my classes, especially related to the
global economy and future strategic partners
for Canada, and I really wanted to see what the
excitement was about. I decided that the best
way for me to spend the year end break was
to go to Indonesia and explore the Indonesian
business community by talking to Canadian
businesses operating in Indonesia. I figured this
would be the best way to paint myself a picture
of the business landscape and figure out if there
was a role I could play in the country once I had
My first impression of Jakarta wasn’t as bad as
I thought it would be. Yes, it’s a megacity with a
population in greater Jakarta of about 20 million
people, but I think I had prepared for such a
shocking experience that once I entered the city
it actually turned into a pleasant surprise.
Yes there was traffic, I saw the pollution, and
signs of urban poverty were evident but there
were so many other things I saw that most
people don’t tell you about. It migh shock you
that Jakarta is surprisingly very green. There
are trees everywhere, and they even line the
streets in downtown with Christmas colored
lights. Jakarta is a very cosmopolitan city, with
an attractive skyline and a balance of older and
modern buildings. And Jakarta has amazingly
big and beautiful malls, which they call plazas.
The plazas easily compete, and outdo, most of
the malls here in Canada both in terms of the
high-end retailers who occupy the spaces and
their grandeur. If you want to see an indication
of the wealth circulating in Jakarta, I highly
suggest you visit one of the many plazas.
Touristy observations aside, my first call in
Jakarta went to the Indonesia Canada Chamber
of Commerce (ICCC) who were very helpful
in putting me in touch with members of the
Indonesia-Canada business community. Of
course, not everyone had time to meet me for a
chat but enough people agreed to keep me busy
for the few weeks I would call Jakarta home.
To keep the interviews flowing my questions
were fairly broad as I was interested in the
general outlook of Canadian companies in
Indonesia, where the opportunities were in the
upcoming years, and if they would recommend
a fresh graduate student like me to explore job
opportunities in the country.
Despite the counter intuitive daily ritual of
putting on a suit and tie instead of a pair
of beach shorts in a tropical country, not a
day went by where I wasn’t intrigued by the
discussions I was having with a cross sector of
business people and before I knew it my time
was up and I had to go home.
Yes I traded the possibility of a great tan for a
lot of knowledge but the ultimate question is,
�was it worth it’, and I can definitely say it was.
My time in Indonesia was short but it is clear
that the people who are doing business here,
despite some unique challenges, are glad they
came and look forward to more opportunities
as the markets and policies mature.
As for me, I don’t know what my future holds but
I do know I will be back. One of the last events I
attended in Jakarta was a luncheon addressed
by his honourable Jean Charest, who is very
supportive of increased Canada-Indonesia
bilateral trade. Jean Charest currently works
with McCarthy TГ©trault a law firm I very much
respect and admire and who knows, when it
is time for me to graduate, they might need a
Canada-Indonesia liaison.
Car Trivia
Canada has a very robust and interesting automotive industry. Can you
match the name/logo of the Canadian Automotive Company with the
right description? Answers are on page 13 after the disclaimer.
Canadian Automotive Company
Summary Background
History dating back to 1930, this is a bus manufacturer
headquartered in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
Established in 1996 in Errington, British Columbia,
focused on providindg designs, parts and technical
support for converting conventional internal
combustion vehicles to non-polluting battery
powered electric vehicles.
Canada's biggest automotive company and world's
third-largest auto parts firm.
Dynasty EV
The relatively unknown company, based in Montreal,
Quebec, has been manufacturing Formula cars since
A company specializing in the manufacture and
rebuilding of buses. Based in Quebec City, it has been
in business for over 60 years.
Specializes in the design and manufacturing of ultraluxurious, fully armored, handcrafted sport utility
The company, headquartered in Toronto, Canada,
is comprised of the automotive industry’s most
respected talent whose award-winning experience
in engineering, fabrication, design, armoring and
customization combine to create one-of-a-kind SUVs
unrivaled and unmatched in today’s automotive
Maker of the Zero Emission, No Noise two-seat battery
electric vehicle. Unfortunately operations were set to
cease June 30, 2013.
With yearly sales in the billions, this is the maker of
multiple brands: Ski-Doo, Can-Am (ATV & Spyder
Roadster), Sea-Doo (PWC and SportBoats), Lynx,
Evinrude Outboard Motors, Johnson Outboards and
Initially based in Italy but moved to Canada it is now
led by 2nd generation and working on increasing
production of the Roadsters, Speedsters and
Kubelwagens destined for the US, Canada and Japan.
With a motto �DESIGN. BUILD. PERFORM.’ The
company provides engineered solutions for the
automotive resource industry
Armored car manufacturing company producing three
distinct products based on the Ford F550 chassis
LAPV (light armored patrol vehicle)
MPV (multi purpose vehicle)
RPV (rapid patrol vehicle)
Producer of a Canadian electric car
The first Canadian super car, developed and produced
in Quebec, Canada
Bahasa Business is managed by ICCC Secretary General
Edwin Pieroelie in coordination with local PR agency
klirkom ( and contributing members
from the Indonesian and Canadian community.
In this October 2014 edition, special appreciation goes to:
Sir Terrence Mathews
Wely Kustono
Karina Sherlen
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car trivia
10 m