razgovarao interview by Maroje Mrduljaš toyo ito Granice su društveni fenomen Razgovarali u Tokiju 13. ožujka 2012. ¶ Japanska arhitektonska scena jasno je obilježena generacijskim sljedovima i prenošenjem znanja. U tom slijedu Toyo Ito zauzima posebno mjesto jer se nastavlja na djelovanje poslijeratnih modernista, sudjeluje u formiranju specifičnih intelektualnih tendencija japanske arhitekture 1970-ih i 1980-ih te razvija svoj vlastiti prosede koji je ostavio izuzetan utjecaj na vodeće protagoniste mlađih japanskih generacija. Već početkom svog rada Ito napušta tektoniku betona, ispituje lakoću i transparentnost, odbija svaku monumentalnost i naglašenije se usmjerava prema konceptualnom razmišljanju koje se ne bazira na velikim i idealističkim vizijama. Među prvim je internacionalnim arhitektima koji dubinski promišljaju transformacije metropolisa u kasnom 20. stoljeću u kontekstu dominacije vizualne domene, novih životnih stilova i utjecaja tadašnje ekonomske ekspanzije na izgrađeni okoliš. Ito i dalje ostaje predvodnik istraživačkih tendencija u japanskoj arhitekturi i danas je posvećen kompleksnim trodimenzionalnim prostornim konfiguracijama i sasvim novom poimanjima odnosa ‘unutarnjeg’ i ‘vanjskog’, što su njegove trajne teme. Ito je dobitnik Pritzkerove nagrade za 2013. godinu. 12 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 toyo ito Boundaries Are a Social Phenomenon portreti portraits Yasuhiro Takagi fotografije photography by Ishiguro Photographic Institute (IPI); Daici Ano (DA);Toyo Ito & Associates, Architects (TIAA); Nacasa & Partners Inc. (NPI); Koji Taki (KT); Nagano Consultant (NC) ¶ The Japanese architectural scene is clearly marked by generational sequences and transfer of knowledge. Toyo Ito holds a special place in this sequence as he continued the activities of post-war modernists, participated in the formation ORIS — Započet ću s pitanjem koje je u određenoj mjeri povijesno, ali mislim da se odnosi i na suvremenu situaciju i na početke vašeg rada. Upravo se održava izložba metabolističkog pokreta u Tokiju, a objavljena je i knjiga o metabolizmu, Project Japan, Rema Koolhaasa i Hansa Ulricha Obrista. Očito postoji znatan interes za metabolizam. Zašto je tako? Metabolisti su vjerovali da je moguć produktivni odnos utopijskog horizonta i društvene stvarnosti i da će biti provedene velike vizije. Moderna povijest pokazala je da arhitekti nemaju moć projektirati gradove kao cjeline. Ipak, mislite li da arhitekti danas mogu djelovati kao pokretači promjena, ali primjenjujući drugačije strategije? ¶ Toyo ito — Rem Koolhaas je moj blizak prijatelj i želio sam znati zašto je zainteresiran za japanski arhitektonski pokret poznat kao metabolizam. Rekao je da se Japan u 1960-ima ubrzano kretao iz jednog urbanog projekta u drugi, dok u 1970-ima, što je vrlo misteriozno, nitko nije započinjao velike projekte. Znam da of specific intellectual tendencies of Japanese architecture in the 1970s and 1980s, and developed his own method which has left a remarkable impact on the leading protagonists of the younger Japanese generation. At the very beginning of his career Ito left the tectonics of concrete and examined lightness and transparency, disclaiming all monumentality and prominently moving towards conceptual thinking that was not based on broad and idealistic visions. He was among the first international architects to reflect deeply on the transforming metropolis in the late 20th century in the context of the dominance of visual domains, new lifestyles and the influence of the then economic expansion on the built environment. Ito remains the leader in research trends in Japanese architecture today and is devoted to complex three-dimensional spatial configurations and an entirely new conception of the relation of ‘internal’ and ‘external’ as his permanent themes. Ito is the winner of the 2013 Pritzker Prize. oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview Interviewed in Tokyo, 13 March 2012 13 (TIAA) 14 U to vrijeme sam bio pomalo ciničan u vezi lakoće. Htio sam dizajnirati arhitekturu koja nema težinu, poput papira postoji jak razlog za to. Diplomirao sam na sveučilištu u Tokiju ORIS — I will start with a question which is to some extent 1965. godine, a ubrzo nakon toga počeo sam raditi u uredu historical but I think is related to the contemporary situaKiyonorija Kikutake, jednog od pripadnika metabolista, koji tion and also to the beginnings of your work. There is an je preminuo krajem 2011. Radio sam tamo nekoliko godina i u exhibition of the Metabolist movement currently showing tom razdoblju se situacija u Japanu jako promijenila. Tijekom in Tokyo. A book by Rem Koolhaas and Hans Ulrich Obrist 1960-ih je bilo mnogo inovativne i eksperimentalne arhitek- about Metabolism has also been published. Obviously there ture koju su stvarali Kenzo Tange i drugi metabolisti. U drugoj is considerable interest in Metabolism. Why is this? Metabopolovici šezdesetih studenti su stekli moć i godine 1969. došlo lists believed it was possible to relate a utopian horizon and je do mnogih demonstracija. Iduće godine, 1970., održan je social reality and that large-scale visions would be impleEXPO u Osaki. Bio sam obeshrabren EXPO izložbom. U 1960- mented. Modern history has proved that architects don’t ima su mnogi arhitekti, metabolisti poput Kenza Tange, imali have the power to design cities as totalities. Yet, do you snove o budućnosti grada, ali kada smo vidjeli EXPO, zapitali think that architects nowadays can act as agents of change, smo se: ‘Je li ovo taj san?’. Jednako tako, ekonomska situacija but deploying different strategies? ¶ Toyo ito — Rem promijenila se nakon naftnog šoka 1970-ih. U tom kontekstu Koolhaas is my close friend and I wanted to know why he is pokrenuo sam svoj vlastiti, vrlo mali atelje. Nismo radili na interested in the Japanese architectural movement known as urbanim projektima, gotovo da i nismo imali projekata osim Metabolism. He said that Japan in the 1960s was quickly movmalih privatnih kuća. Za većinu naše generacije arhitekata, ing from one urban project to another, but in the 1970s very uključujući Tadaa Anda i Itsuko Hasegawu, situacija je bila mysteriously there was no-one starting any large projects. ista. Osjećao sam da je arhitektonska budućnost nestala, a I know there is a strong reason for this. I graduated from ja sam kroz svoje projekte počeo kritizirati društvo. Za našu Tokyo University in 1965, and soon after that I was working generaciju mogućnost stvaranja prekrasne utopije u kući, bez in the office of Kikutake Kiyonori, one of the Metabolists who obzira koliko ona bila mala, bila je od ključne važnosti; istraži- passed away recently. I worked there for several years and in vali smo kamo ide budućnost u malom mjerilu. A to je bilo tako that period the situation in Japan changed significantly. In zbog napuštanja veza s društvom i traženja načina građenja the 1960s there was so much innovative and experimental u 1970-ima. architecture realized by Kenzo Tange and other Metabolists. ORIS — Počeli ste razvijati svoje ideje kada ste se suočili In the second half of the sixties, students gained power and s razočaranjem, znajući da su snovi o državi blagostanja iz there were many demonstrations in 1969. The next year, 1970, 1960-ih nestali, ali ste uspjeli nezadovoljstvo pretvoriti u kre- there was an Expo in Osaka. I was extremely discouraged ativnost. ¶ Toyo ito — Da. by the Expo. In the 1960s, many architects, Metabolists like Kenzo Tange met a dream of the future city, but when we saw the Expo we asked ourselves ‘Is this a dream?’ Also, the economic situation changed after the oil shock of the 1970s. In this context I started my own very small atelier. We didn’t work on urban projects; we had almost no projects except Gradski muzej Yatsushiro, Yatsushiro, Yatsushiro Municipal Museum, Yatsusmall private houses. For most of our generation of archiKumamoto, Japan, 1988. – 91. shiro, Kumamoto, Japan, 1988 – 91 tects, including Tadao Ando and Itsuko Hasegawa, the situation was the same. I felt the architectural future was gone, and I started to criticize society through my projects. For our generation the possibility of making a beautiful utopia in a house no matter how small was essential; we were exploring how the future would go in small scale. And that was due to discarding bonds with society and finding a way of building in the 1970s. ORIS — You started to develop your ideas when faced with disillusion, knowing that the dreams of the 1960s welfare state were over, but you’ve managed to turn dissatisfaction into creativity. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes. ORIS — Učinili ste pomak od prilično teške betonske arhitekture Japana prema lakoći, prema novom konceptu arhitekture koja je uglavnom sastavljena od montažnih, prefabriciranih elemenata poput čeličnih greda, aluminijskih panela… U to ste vrijeme uveli novi arhitektonski jezik. Što je bio razlog za početak arhitektonskih istraživanja u tom smjeru? ¶ Toyo ito — U 1970-ima su svi bili introvertirani, a mi smo pokušali pronaći utopiju u zatvorenim prostorima. Mislio sam da nema budućnosti za arhitekturu 1970-ih, ali kada su došle 1980-e, japanski gradovi postali su opet zanimljivi. Svatko će reći da je Japan tada ušao u razdoblje takozvanog potrošačkog društva ‘bubble ekonomije’. U to su vrijeme zgrade, zbog ekonomskih promjena, imale vrijednost koja nije bila veća od vrijednosti papira za otpad. To je bilo vrlo bolno. Vrijednost arhitekture bila je baš kao vrijednost papira, dok su troškovi zemljišta bili izrazito visoki. U usporedbi s troškovima zemljišta, troškovi gradnje bili su beznačajni. Neki arhitekti radili su samo na ljepoti i nisu obraćali pozornost na upotrebu, zgrade su bile srušene, a parcele prodane. Dakle, u to vrijeme sam bio pomalo ciničan u vezi lakoće. Htio sam projektirati arhitekturu koja nema težinu, poput papira. ORIS — Eksperimenti u malom mjerilu mogu se vidjeti u kući Bijelo U čiji se koncept temelji na sekvenci prostora s jasnim karakterom. Značajke su postignute kao susreti s jednostavnim, ali neočekivanim arhitektonskim elementima unutar fluidnog, kontinuirano zaobljenog prostora. Možete li pojasniti koncept kuće Bijelo U, jer mislim da se on ponavlja u vašem radu? Biste li se složili da je Bijelo U vrsta prototipa fluidnog prostora koji ste nastavili istraživati? ¶ Toyo ito — Sve do ORIS — You made a shift from the quite heavy concrete architecture of Japan towards lightness, towards a new concept of architecture which was mainly assembled from prefabricated materials like steel beams, aluminium sheets... You introduced a new architectural language at that time. What was the reason to start architectural research in that direction? ¶ Toyo ito — In the 1970s everyone was very introverted and we tried to find utopia in closed spaces. I thought there was no future in architecture in the 1970s, but when the 1980s came Japanese cities became interesting again. At that time everyone would say that Japan entered a so-called social consumption ‘bubble economy’. And buildings at that time, because of the economic changes, had a value no greater than wastepaper. I think that was a very painful thing for me. The value of architecture was just like paper, while land costs were very high. Compared with the cost of land, the construction cost was nothing. Some architects worked just with beauty and paid no attention to use, buildings were demolished and plots sold. So at that time I was a little cynical about lightness. I wanted to design architecture with no weight, like paper. ORIS — Experiments with a small scale can be seen in the White U, whose concept is based on a sequence of spaces with distinct characters. These distinctions were achieved as encounters with simple architectural elements within a fluid, continuous undulating space. Could you elaborate a bit more on the concept of the White U, because I think it’s recurrent, it repeats itself in your work. Would you agree that the White U is a sort of prototype of fluid space which you continued to explore? ¶ Toyo ito — Freedom is my theme from the White U, until now because for me architecture is the experience of space, just like walking around an old Japanese garden. A Japanese garden has no strong axes or visual structure. There are many elements, usually around the pond, some trees or a tea house or stepping stones. Each person walking around the garden has a different experience, tracing many elements. I like that kind of thought, so when I think about my architectural spaces I always think of some element floating in the air, and there are no boundaries. It is my ideal of space, but usually architecture has boundaries, must have boundaries. It is a contradiction which is painful for me. ORIS — In the White U, you created space which is not comprehensible at first sight but you have to walk through it. You have to discover these subtle and even enigmatic changes. Here is a chair, there is a skylight and then an opening; different elements gradually appear as the experience of the space unfolds. ¶ Toyo ito — That is right. In households the main theme has become sunlight, a light place and a dark oris, broj 80, godina 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview oris, number 80, year 2013 At that time I was a little cynical about lightness. I wanted to design architecture which has no weight, like a paper 15 (KT) Bijelo U, Nakano-ku, Tokio, Japan, 1975. – 76. White U, Nakano-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 1975 – 76 Bijelo U, Nakano-ku, Tokio, Japan, 1975. – 76. White U, Nakano-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 1975 – 76 (KT) danas je sloboda moja tema iz Bijelog U, jer je arhitektura za mene iskustvo prostora, baš kao i šetnja drevnim japanskim vrtom. Japanski vrt nema jaku os ili vizualnu strukturu. Postoje mnogi elementi, obično oko jezera, stabla ili paviljon za čaj ili kamenje u vodi. Svaki čovjek koji se kreće vrtom doživljava drugačije iskustvo otkrivajući mnoge elemente. Volim tu vrstu misli, pa kad razmišljam o svojim arhitektonskim prostorima, uvijek mislim o nekom elementu koji pluta u zraku, a ne postoje granice. To je moj ideal prostora. Ali arhitektura ima granice, mora imati granice. To je kontradikcija koja je za mene bolna. ORIS — U Bijelom U stvorili ste prostor koji nije razumljiv na prvi pogled, već se morate kretati kroz njega. Morate otkriti ove suptilne, pa čak i zagonetne promjene. Ovdje je stolica, tamo je svjetlarnik, a zatim otvor, različiti elementi se postupno pojavljuju kako se odvija iskustvo prostora. ¶ Toyo ito — To je točno. U kućama je glavna tema postala sunčevo svjetlo, svijetlo mjesto i tamno mjesto i opet svijetlo mjesto i tamno mjesto - to je ritam. Ljudi nastanjuju ritam svjetla i tame i ritam zraka i zvukova. place and again a light place and a dark place, it is a rhythm. People inhabit a rhythm of light and dark and a rhythm of air and sounds. ORIS — You used the sound of the wind in the Silver Hut house and in the Yatsushiro Municipal Museum with the curved roof. You gradually moved in the direction of the architecture of sound, light, intense experience of non-physical space. ¶ Toyo ito — In the 1980s more importance was given to materials than to light or sound. It was interesting walking through the urban space. I lost my gravity and got the impression I was floating in a space of light and sound. In that city created by light or sound or information I felt as if I was floating in the sky, in the air. Experiencing that type of city, I wondered how I could make architecture even lighter. Then the Tower of Winds project came, and the very light floating roof museum project. Srebrna koliba, Nakano-ku, Tokio, Japan, 1982. – 84. Bijelo U, Nakanoku, Tokio, Japan, 1975. – 76., tlocrt Silver Hut, Nakano-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 1982 – 84 (TIAA) White U, Nakano-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 1975 – 76, plan Bijelo U, Nakano-ku, Tokio, Japan, 1975.-76. White U, Nakano-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 1975-76 16 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 17 Toranj vjetrova u Yokohami, Nishi-ku, Yokohama, Kanagawa, Japan, 1986., kolaž Tower of Winds in Yokohama, Nishi-ku, Yokohama, Kanagawa, Japan, 1986, collage 18 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 19 ORIS — Koristili ste zvuk vjetra u kući Srebrna koliba ili u Gradskom muzeju Yatsushiro sa zaobljenim krovom. Postupno ste krenuli u smjeru arhitekture zvuka, svjetla, intenzivnog iskustva ne-fizičkog prostora. ¶ Toyo ito — U 1980-ima je materijalu dana veća važnost nego svjetlu ili zvuku. Bilo je zanimljivo hodati kroz urbani prostor. Izgubio sam gravitaciju i dobio dojam da lebdim u prostoru svjetlosti i zvuka. U tom gradu, stvorenom od svjetla ili zvuka ili informacije, osjećao sam se kao da plutam na nebu, u zraku. Doživjevši taj tip grada, pitao sam se kako bih mogao napraviti čak i lakšu arhitekturu. Tako je došlo do projekta Tower of Winds (Toranj vjetrova) i projekta vrlo laganog plutajućeg krova muzeja. Jaje vjetrova, Chuo-Ku, Tokio, Japan, 1991. ORIS — In the 1980s metropolis cityscapes were changing, becoming a sort of digital media ‘image’, especially in Tokyo. You included this new experience of urban environment as media space in the Tower of Winds and Egg of Winds projects. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes. In the 1980s Tokyo was most exciting for me, and thinking about other cities in the world I was wondering if Tokyo was the only city in the world that consists of nonmaterial things like light, sound and information. From there, I was interested in what kind of architecture would emerge from those places. That was the time when I was thinking how to make architecture as light as possible or as transparent as possible. Egg of Winds, Chuo-Ku, Tokio, Japan,1991 (TIAA) ORIS — U 1980-ima se gradske vizure metropola mijenjaju i postaju neka vrsta digitalnih medijskih ‘slika’, posebice u Tokiju. Vi ste ovo novo iskustvo urbanog okruženja kao medijskog prostora uključili u projekte Tower of Winds i Egg of Winds (Toranj vjetrova i Jaje vjetrova). ¶ Toyo ito — Da. Tokyo mi je 1980-ih bio najuzbudljiviji grad i razmišljajući o drugim gradovima u svijetu pitao sam se je li Tokio jedini grad na svijetu koji se sastoji od ne-materijalnih stvari poput svjetla, zvuka i informacije. Zanimalo me kakva će arhitektura nastati iz tih mjesta. U to vrijeme sam razmišljao kako napraviti što je moguće lakšu ili što je moguće transparentniju arhitekturu. ORIS — Vaš interes za novo stanje u metropoli nije bio samo u vizualnim aspektima, već i u novim životnim stilovima koje ste prikazali u eksperimentalnim projektima i izložbama poput Tokyo Nomad Woman (Tokijska žena nomad). ¶ Toyo ito — To vrijeme i grad temeljen na informacijama bili su mi ugodni, ali jednoj mladoj slobodnoj ženi grad je bio još ugodniji. To je razlog zašto je Tokyo Nomad Woman bio ključan projekt. Gledao sam i proučavao žene kojima je grad bio dom jer im nije bio potreban pravi dom. Čak i da su imale samo šator, to bi im bilo dovoljno. Bilo im je važno da jedu vani, piju vani, idu u kino, urbani život dožive kao uzbuđenje. Sam projekt je bio njihov gradski stil života. Ta vrsta odnosa i konzumiranje arhitekture bio mi je novi problem. ORIS — Postoje li negativni aspekti takvog načina života, pogotovo kada se promatra fenomen urbanog nomadizma iz današnje perspektive? Ekstremna mobilnost i nedostatak ukorijenjenosti mogli su izgledati kao oslobođenje, pa ORIS — Your interest in the new metropolis condition was not only about the visual aspects but also about the new and emerging lifestyles which you presented in experimental projects and exhibitions like Tokyo Nomad Woman. ¶ Toyo ito — That time and the city founded by information were enjoyable for me, but for single young women it was even more enjoyable. That’s why Tokyo Nomad Woman was a critical project. Looking at and studying those women, the city was their home so they did not need a real home; even if they owned just a tent, that would be enough for them. For them the important thing was eating out, drinking out, going to movies, urban life as excitement. The project itself was their city lifestyle. For me that kind of relationship and consummation of architecture was a new problem. ORIS — Are there some negative aspects of this way of life, especially when you observe the phenomenon of urban nomadism from today’s perspective? Extreme mobility and lack of rootedness could have seemed like liberation and even emancipation, but they also undermined the fabric of local communities and promoted an extremely individualistic self-perception. So it is quite an ambiguous situation. ¶ Toyo ito — My feeling was in a sense positive and in a sense negative. I was enjoying the new aspect of the city but enjoyment in the new lifestyles was dependent on money. In consumer societies everything is buyable. People are satisfied spending money. Young girls were enjoying themselves but they all spent money so I was critical about that aspect. Anyway, that kind of lifestyle brought an architecture that was only Pao I, skica za ‘Pao: obitavalište za Tokijsku ženu nomada’, Tokio, 1985. U eksperimentalnom projektu Obitavalište za tokijsku ženu-nomada, Ito reagira na socio-urbane dinamike Tokija 1980-ih koji je tada na vrhuncu ekonomskog prosperiteta što utječe i na radikalno nove načine života. Obzirom da se život tokijskih urbanih žena tada odvija između posla, zabave i kulture - dakle konzumiranja grada uz minimalno korištenje stalnog obitavališta - projekt predlaže lagane stambene jedinice koja uključuje mikro-prostore posebno opremljene za specifične funkcije koje se obavljaju "kod kuće": užina, uljepšavanje, intelektualni rad. 20 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview Pao I, sketch for ‘Pao: A Dwelling of Tokyo Nomad Woman’, Tokyo, 1985 With the experimental project Dwellings for a Tokyo Nomad Woman project, Ito reacts to the social and urbanistic dynamics of 1980s Tokyo. It was at the peak of its economic prosperity, which radically influenced new ways of life. Since the life of urban women in Tokyo took place between work, entertainment and culture, i.e. consuming the city with the minimum use of a permanent residence, the project suggests light housing units containing micro-spaces that would be specially equipped for specific functions that are performed ‘at home’: snack, styling, intelligence. 21 Dom za starije, Yatsushiro, čak i emancipacija, ali su isto tako potkopali tkivo lokalnih Kumamoto, Japan, 1992. – 94. zajednica i promovirali iznimno individualističku samoperOld People's House in cepciju. Dakle, to je prilično ambivalentna situacija. ¶ Toyo Yatsushiro, Yatsushiro, ito — Moj osjećaj je bio u jednom smislu pozitivan, a u druKumamoto, Japan, 1992 – 94 gom negativan. Uživao sam u novom aspektu grada, ali uživanje u novim životnim stilovima je ovisilo o novcu. U potrošačkim društvima sve se može kupiti. Ljudi su bili zadovoljni trošeći novac. Mlade djevojke su uživale, ali su svi oni trošili novac, pa sam bio kritičan u tom pogledu. U svakom slučaju, ta je vrsta života dovela do toga da je arhitektura bila zanimljiva samo površinski, a to je bilo zanimljivo samo po sebi. U to vrijeme sam napisao članak čiji naslov je bio ‘Ako ne skočimo u potrošačko more, nova arhitektura neće se dogoditi’. Postoji japanska poslovica: ‘Ako ne odemo na opasno mjesto, neće se dogoditi zanimljive stvari...’ ORIS — Godine 1997. napisali ste utjecajan tekst ‘Tarzani u interesting on the surface, and that was interesting in itself. At medijskoj šumi’ tvrdeći da ljudska bića imaju fizičko tijelo i the time I wrote an article. The title was ‘If We Don’t Jump into virtualno tijelo koje je, mislim, bitno za vaš rad. Kako je ova the Consumer Sea, New Architecture Will Not Come’. There’s a ideja o postojanju dva tijela utjecala na vaš arhitektonski rad? Japanese saying: if we don’t go to a dangerous place, interestKako prevesti koncept tih dvaju tijela u artikulaciju prostora? ing things won’t happen... ¶ Toyo ito — Tradicionalno, ljudi posjeduju fizičko tijelo, a iz ORIS — In 1997 you wrote the influential text ‘Tarzans in the različitih informacija stvaramo tijelo svjesnosti koje je u kom- Media Forest’ arguing that human beings have a real body binaciji s ovim virtualnom tijelom. Međutim, naše jedinstveno and a virtual body which is, I think, essential for your work. ljudsko tijelo polako se počelo razdvajati na dva dijela. To je How did this idea of having two bodies affect your architecdovelo do raznih socijalnih pitanja i razlika između starog i tural work? How do you translate the concept of these two novog načina načina razmišljanja. Tijela više nisu mogla biti bodies into the articulation of space? ¶ Toyo ito — Trauspješno kombinirana zajedno. Tu sam se našao u središtu ditionally, humans possess a physical body, and from differopasne situacije, iščekujući da vidim što će se dogoditi. Htio ent information we make a body of consciousness that was sam vidjeti što će se dogoditi još uvijek koristeći ovo virtu- combined in this virtual body. However, slowly our unified alno tijelo (koje se počelo razdvajati) i nastaviti graditi. To me human body began to be torn apart into two. This led to a dovelo do stvaranja arhitekture koja je u potrazi za lakoćom variety of social issues and differences between the old way and new way of thinking. Bodies could no longer be successi transparentnošću. ORIS — Ovo razmišljanje o fizičkom i virtualnom tijelu fully combined together. Here I found myself in the middle vezano je za pitanje granica. Arhitektura ima granice, ali of a dangerous situation, waiting to see what would occur. I jedna granica je za fizički prostor, a druga granica vrijedi za wanted to see what would happen, while still using this virtual virtualno tijelo koje se odnosi na perceptivni ili mentalni pro- body (that began to be torn apart) and continuing to build. stor. Mislim da ova dvosmislenost između fizičkih i mental- This led me to create architecture in the pursuit of its lightness nih granica igra važnu ulogu u vašem radu. Riječ je o razlici and transparency. između doslovne i fenomenološke transparentnosti. ¶ Toyo ORIS — This thinking about the physical and virtual body ito — Htio sam projektirati laganiju ili transparentniju arhi- relates to the question of boundaries. Architecture has tekturu, ali sva arhitektura, ako je realizirana, nije protiv gra- boundaries, but there is one boundary for the physical space vitacije i uvijek ima unutrašnjost i vanjštinu. Dakle, kao što ste and a second boundary for the virtual body related to perceprekli, arhitektura ima fizičke granice i virtualne granice, dvije tive space. I think this ambiguity between physical boundagranice koje nikada ne mogu biti iste. To je bila vrlo zanimljiva ries and mental boundaries plays an important part in your work. It’s about the difference between literal and phenomsituacija, ali imao sam dvojbe. ORIS — U Sendai Medijateci ste koristili različite vrste enal transparency. ¶ Toyo ito — I wanted to design lighter stakla kako bi se postigle različite razine transparentnosti. or more transparent architecture but all architecture, if it is 22 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Vatrogasna stanica, Yatsushiro, Kumamoto, Japan, 1992. – 95. (tiaa) Fire Station in Yatsushiro, Yatsushiro, Kumamoto, Japan, 1992 – 95 (tiaa) Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 23 Tlocrt 7. kata 7th floor plan Tlocrt 1. kata 1st floor plan Tlocrt 4. kata 4th floor plan Tlocrt 2. kata 2nd floor plan Tlocrt 5. kata 5th floor plan Tlocrt 3. kata 3rd floor plan Tlocrt 6. kata 6th floor plan Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000., lijevo: crteži Toyo Ito Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000, left: sketches by Toyo Ito 24 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Kombinirali ste transparentne i polutransparentne granice realized, is not against gravity and always has an inside and an između unutrašnjeg i vanjskog prostora, ali i unutar zgrade. outside. So as you said, architecture has a physical boundary Jednako tako, istraživali ste refleksije koje su odigrale važnu and a virtual boundary, two boundaries which can never be ulogu i u vašim ranijim projektima. U mnogim svojim pro- the same. It was a very interesting scene, but I had doubts. jektima koristite slične učinke iako koristite različite vrste ORIS — In Sendai Mediatheque you used different types of materijala. Prostor tretirate kao tekućinu tako da dobiva glass in order to achieve different levels of transparency. You gustoću i može se doživjeti i osjetiti kao gotovo opipljiv were combining transparent and semi-transparent boundafenomen. ¶ Toyo ito — Sedam je katova i obično svaki kat ries between the inside and outside, but also within the ima različite aktivnosti pa su odvojeni, ali međusobno pove- building. You also explored reflections, which also played zani cijevima. Uobičajeni redoslijed, prvi kat, drugi kat, treći an important role in your earlier projects. In many of your kat, nije bio ono što sam htio učiniti, već napraviti promjenu, projects you use similar effects but different types of materiprimjerice s rupom koja vodi od prvog do trećeg kata. To se als. You treat space like liquid, so the space gets density and one can experience and feel the space as a tangible phenomrješenje činilo zanimljivo. ORIS — Ideja preklapanja programa je već prisutna u vatro- enon. ¶ Toyo ito — There are seven floors, and usually every gasnoj postaji Yatsushiro gdje ste reinterpretirali tipološke floor’s activity is different and they are separated, but always konvencije. Podigli ste zgradu i stvorili javni prostor ispod connected to each other by the tubes. The usual order of 1st nje. To je originalan koncept koji je uveo javni prostor u inače floor, 2nd floor, 3rd floor was not what I wanted to do, but to zatvorenu tipologiju. Tu postoji kontinuirana putanja tipo- make a change, for example, with a hole leading from the 1st loškog istraživanja od vatrogasne postaje do Doma umirov- floor to the 3rd floor. That solution had an interesting feel to it. ljenika u Yatsushiru, a zatim do Medijateke Sendai. Istražili ORIS — The idea of overlapping programmes is already ste nove načine projektiranja ponekad neočekivanih tipova present in the Yatsushiro Fire Station where you reinterjavnog prostora ugrađenih u projekte. ¶ Toyo ito — Muzej u preted typological conventions. You lifted the building up Yatsushiru završio sam 1991. To je privuklo pozornost i postao and created a public space below it. It’s an original concept sam popularan. Oblikovanje je bilo dobro i svježe, ali program which introduced public space into a normally closed typolje bio vrlo klasičan i nisam ga mogao dotaknuti ili promijeniti. ogy. There is a continuous trajectory of typological research Zbog toga sam jako žalio, pa sam nakon toga htio promijeniti from the fire station to the Old People’s House in Yatsushiro programe za javne zgrade i, kao što ste rekli, za vatrogasnu and then to Sendai. You explored new ways of creating somepostaju te Dom umirovljenika. To je dvosmislenije i ljudima times unexpected types of public space embedded in the može biti ugodnije pa su opušteniji u takvom prostoru. Sviđa projects. ¶ Toyo ito — I finished the museum in Yatsushiro mi se projekt vatrogasne postaje Yatsushiro. Nalazi se pored in 1991. It attracted attention and became popular. The expresosnovne škole. Djeca odu do vatrogasne postaje nakon škole, sion was good and fresh but the programme itself was very a vježbe vatrogasaca su izuzetno uzbudljive, tako da ih sva- classical and I couldn’t touch or change it. It was a big regret kodnevno mogu promatrati. Drugi kat je posebno pogodan for me, so after that I wanted to change the programme for za gledanje treninga. Obično vatrogasne postaje nisu u blizini public buildings and, as you said, the fire station and the old stambenih zgrada jer su uvijek glasne, ali ljudi bi trebali razu- people’s home. That kind of space is more ambiguous, and mjeti običan svakodnevni, vrlo teški život vatrogasaca. Oni people can be more comfortable and relaxed in it. I like the kuhaju za sebe i imaju vrlo naporan trening. Dakle, program Yatsushiro Fire Station project, it is next to a primary school. se ponešto promijenio. I Dom za umirovljenike je isto tako The children went to the fire station after school; the firemen’s malo bolji od uobičajenog programa. Za mene je to bio dirljiv training is so exciting and they can see it every day. The seci inovativan projekt. Nakon 25 godina napokon sam mogao ond floor especially is a good space for watching the training. utjecati na programske aspekte. Usually fire stations do not have neighbours because they are ORIS — Bilo je potrebno uložiti mnogo napora u pregova- always noisy, but people should understand the firemen’s ordiranje s različitim stranama uključenim u proces projektiranja nary, everyday lives that are so hard, they cook for themselves u Sendai. Ako sam u pravu, trebalo je pet godina za izradu and it is tough training. So the programme has changed a little projekta. Svaki kat Sendaia je vrsta krajolika: krajolik infor- and the Old People’s House is also a little better than the usual macija, krajolik namještaja, krajolik događaja. Korijeni ovog programme; to me it was a touching and innovative project. otvorenog kocepta prostora mogu se pratiti od natječaja za After 25 years I could finally influence programmatic aspects. Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 25 Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000. Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000 (TIAA) 26 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 27 Natječaj za Sveučilišnu knjižnicu u Parizu, 1992. University Library Paris, competition project, 1992 (TIAA) 28 sveučilišnu knjižnicu u Parizu koja je nehijerarhijski sustav definiran jednostavnom strukturom i policama. ¶ Toyo ito — Da. Uvijek želim stvoriti nehijerarhijski prostor jer arhitektura je obično vrlo stroga i želi zadržati hijerarhiju. Programi uvijek kontroliraju ljude, a ja želim biti slobodan od takve kontrole. Kada ljudi hodaju izvan arhitekture ili grada, slobodniji su, a osobito djeca. Unutar arhitekture ne mogu trčati, moraju mirno sjediti, ali kad izađu iz kuće ili zgrade mogu biti slobodni. Htio bih napraviti više prostora gdje ljudi mogu biti slobodni. ORIS — Sendai ima prostore koji su prilično ekstrovertni i živi. To su otvoreni prostori gdje ljudi mogu čitati ili pregledavati multimediju, ali i lutati okolo i upoznavati jedni druge. Je li vaša namjera bila da se uključi socijalizacija između različitih društvenih skupina kako bi se stimulirala integracija između ljudi? ¶ Toyo ito — Da, moja namjera je bila ne odvajati društvene skupine jer bi djeca trebala biti ovdje i stari ljudi bi trebali biti ovdje, ali se dogodilo više nego što sam očekivao. Čak i u knjižnici mala djeca trče, ponekad su malo bučna, stariji ljudi po cijeli dan gledaju video i DVD, a do njih se nalazi studentska računalna radionica. Oni su uvijek pomiješani. Godinu dana nakon otvaranja čuo sam od osoblja u Medijateci da su se navike starijih ljudi promijenile. To je bilo jako lijepo. ORIS — Inovativni strukturalni sustav u Sendaiu je bitan za prostornu artikulaciju zgrade. Polazna točka projekta bila je poetična metafora plutajuće alge u tekućem prostoru. Jeste li razmišljali o strukturnim izazovima od početka? ¶ Toyo ito — Doista, prvi koncept je bio da treba biti izrađena od materijala sličnim algama. Međutim, bilo je očito da to nije moguće napraviti od te vrste mekog materijala. Materijal ORIS — It took a lot of effort to negotiate with the different parties involved in the design process of Sendai. If I’m correct it took five years to develop the project. Each floor of Sendai is a sort of landscape: landscape of information, landscape of furniture, landscape of events. The origins of this open plan can be traced from the competition for the university library in Paris which is a non-hierarchical system defined by a simple layout and the bookshelves. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes. I always want to create non-hierarchical space because architecture is usually very strict and wants to keep a hierarchy. Programmes always control people and I always want to be free from such control. When people are walking outside architecture or the city, they are freer, especially children. They cannot run inside architecture, they have to sit quietly, but when they go out of the house or the building they can be free. I’d like to make more space where people can be free. ORIS — Sendai’s spaces are quite extrovert and alive, they are open spaces where people can read or browse through multimedia but also wander around and meet each other. Was it your intention to encourage mixing between different social groups, to stimulate integration between people? ¶ Toyo ito — Yes, it was my intention not to separate social groups, children should be here, old people should be here, but it happened more than I expected. Even in the library there are small children running and sometimes being a little noisy, while older people are watching videos, DVDs, all day and next to them there is a student computer workshop. They are always mixing. A year after the opening, I heard from the staff in Mediatheque that the older people’s habits had changed. It was very nice. Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000. Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview (tiaa) 29 nosive konstrukcije morao je biti promijenjen u čvrsti materijal. To je bilo potpuno drugačije od originalne ideje, međutim, odlasci na gradilište gdje sam vidio lagane, ali čvrste oblike cijevi potaknuli su me na razmišljanje. Nisam namjeravao dijeliti sobe zidovima. Umjesto toga, pomoću cijevi sam želio stvoriti prostor sličan šumi. Namjeravao sam postići stvaranje slobode u prostoru nalik kretanju kroz šumu cijevi. Na primjer, svaki čovjek koristi prostor za različite stvari: netko tko želi čitati knjigu ići će u manji, mirniji prostor, a kad se ljudi žele okupiti i razgovarati, ići će u velike, široke prostore. Tako je prostor koncipiran od početka. ORIS — The innovative structural system in Sendai is essential for the building’s spatial articulation. The project’s starting point was a poetic metaphor of seaweed floating in liquid space. Did you think about the structural challenges from the beginning? ¶ Toyo ito — Indeed, the first concept was that it should be made from materials similar to seaweed. However, it was obvious that it was not possible to make it from that kind of soft material. That’s why the structure’s materials had to be changed to harder materials. That was completely different from the original idea; however, going to the construction site and seeing the light but strong standing shape tubes made me rethink. To divide rooms with walls was not something I intended to do. Rather, by using tubes I wanted to create a space similar to a forest. Creating freedom in space that resembles moving through a forest of tubes was what I intended to do. For example, every person uses space for different things, someone wanting to read a book wants to go to a smaller silent space, and when people want to gather and talk they go to larger, wide spaces, that’s how the space conception was decided from the beginning. ORIS — Postoje sličnosti i razlike između Sendai Medijateke ORIS — There is a similarity and a difference between the i knjižnice Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama (Hachioji kampus). Sendai Mediatheque and Tama Art University Library (HacObje su nehijerarhijski otvoreni sustavi, ali u Sveučilištu Tama hioji campus). Both are non-hierarchical open systems but in definirali ste podprostore koristeći se strukturalnim susta- Tama Art University you defined sub-spaces using an arched vom lukova. Struktura je vizualno vrlo jednostavna i diskretna, structural system. The structure is visually very simple and ali artikulira prostor. Pretpostavljam da je bilo vrlo zahtjevno discreet but it articulates the space. I imagine it was very projektirati strukturalni sustav u Sveučilištu Tama jer imate demanding to design the structural system in Tama because vrlo tanke, lagano zakrivljene zidove s lukovima velikog ras- you have very slim, gently curved walls with arches and big pona. To ne bi bilo moguće bez sofisticiranih izračuna. ¶ Toyo spans. It couldn’t be possible without sophisticated structural ito — Sendai je također bio takav... Građevinski inženjer koji calculations. ¶ Toyo ito — Sendai was also like that... The je radio na Sendai i na Tami je Mutsuro Sasaki. On je odli- structural engineer who worked on Sendai and Tama is Mutčan i uvijek odmah razumije ono što želim učiniti. Vrlo sam suro Sasaki. He is excellent and always understands immediazadovoljan njime. Kao što ste rekli, Tama je vrlo jednostavna, tely what I want to do, I am very happy with him. As you said, ali u određenom smislu također i složenija. U Tami postoji Tama is very simple but in a sense also more complicated. In mnogo vijugavih linija, svaki prostor je artikuliran. U Sendai Tama there are many winding lines, each space is articulated. In uvijek postoji kontinuirani prostor; Tama je pojednostavljena Sendai it is always continuous space; Tama is simplified by the pomoću lukova, ali imate i artikulaciju i kontinuitet. To mi je arches but you have both articulation and continuation. That uzbudljivije. Prostor je blago artikuliran, ali funkcija, zaobljeni is more exciting for me. The space is a little articulated, but the function, rounding furniture, continues the space again. namještaj, čine prostor kontinuiranim. Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000., crtež Toyo Ito Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000., presjek Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000, sketch by Toyo Ito Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000, section 30 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 31 ORIS — Sve ste više zainteresirani za arikulaciju poda. U Tami je prizemlje nagnuto, a prvi kat je horizontalan. Iskustva prostora su različita, a postigli ste to koristeći vrlo jednostavne načine. ¶ Toyo ito — Nagib prizemlja je isti kao nagib na okolnom terenu. Napravili smo nagib unutar zgrade, a studenti mogu proći kroz zgradu. Da je pod horizontalan, okolina i arhitektura bili bi razdvojeni. ORIS — Prizemlje je dio prolaza niz brdo. Gledajući iznutra, gotovo da se ne može reći gdje je granica zgrade jer su strukturni elementi pročelja i interijera isti. Staklo je vrlo tanko, ima samo jedan sloj. Kada ste u interijeru, niste potpuno sigurni koji luk je unutra, a koji definira vanjski perimetar. ¶ Toyo ito — Da, neki ljudi su rekli da je to granica. Staklo je uvijek granica, ali u mom konceptu to je luk, linija luka je kontinuirana, više se širi. Prostor se širi koliko je to moguće, ali na kraju mora negdje biti prekinut. Knjižnica Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama (Hachioji kampus) Hachioji, Tokio, Japan, 2004. – 2007. Knjižnica Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama (Hachioji kampus) Hachioji, Tokio, Japan, 2004. – 2007. Tama Art University Library (Hachioji campus), Hachioji, Tokyo, Japan, 2004 – 2007 Knjižnica Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama (Hachioji kampus) Hachioji, Tokio, Japan, 2004. – 2007., presjek Floor Raised Access Floor +Tile Carpet 500x500 t=10 Task Lighting Expand-metal Screen Indirect Lighting Disc Air Conditioning (Outlet) Fire Protection Screen Tama Art University Library (Hachioji campus), Hachioji, Tokyo, Japan, 2004 – 2007 (ipi) Tama Art University Library (Hachioji campus), Hachioji, Tokyo, Japan, 2004 – 2007, section Asphalt Prepared Roofing +Heat Insulation +Concrete Panel Book Holder + Duct Cover Gutter Void Slab 1/40 3600 (ipi) ORIS — You are increasingly interested in treatment of the floor. In Tama the ground floor is sloped, while the first floor is horizontal. The experiences of spaces are different, and you achieved that using very simple means. ¶ Toyo ito — The slope on the ground is the same slope as the surrounding terrain. We made a slope inside the building and the student can go through the building. If it was horizontal, the surroundings and the architecture would be separated. ORIS — The ground floor is partly passageways down the hill. Looking from inside, you almost can’t tell where the building’s boundary is because the structural elements of the façade and interior are the same. The glass is very thin, it has only one sheet, so it is ambiguous when you are inside the space, you are not completely sure which arch is inside and which is defining the exterior perimeter. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes, some people said it’s a boundary, the glass is always a boundary but in my concept it is the arch, the arch line is continuing, more extending. The space spreads as far as it can, but in the end it has to be cut somewhere. Float Glass t=12 (Flat) Ceiling & Wall Exposed Concrete +Hydrophobizing Agent Finish Float Glass t=15 (Curved) M2FL Open Stack & Reading FCU Laboratory Closed Stack Carrel FCU 2400 Tempered Glass t=5 (For Fire Crew) 2FL Temporary Theatre Grating Cover Arcade Gallery 17100 Cafe Air Conditioning (Outlet) 5275 Folding Doors (Gallery Carry-in Entrance) Floor Exposed Concrete +Toughening Agent Finish Gutter 1/20 1FL (Office Floor Level) Grating Cover 3675 Seismic Isolation Clearance W=500 Seismic Isolation Pit Machine Compact Stack Gutter Pendant Lighting Air Duct Slip Bearing AHU Seismic Isolator Upper Lighting 2150 B1FL Gutter FCU (Hung Under Floor) Compact Stack Air Conditioning (return) D 32 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 4 6 10 1 7 9 oris, number 80, year 2013 B Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 33 ORIS — One of the effects you wanted to achieve is to have identical finishes of the inside and outside surfaces. That is what you introduced in TOD’S Omotesando Building for example. In Tama it is the same. What is the reason for that? ¶ Toyo ito — Until Sendai the transparency was just glass, but if I used more glass it looked to me as if it was a wall and I wanted to find another method for treatment of inside and outside. In TOD’S, the wall outside and inside is completely the same. So, when people go inside they feel as if they are outside. It was a new discovery for me. So after that I tried it again in Mikimoto Ginza 2. ORIS — The design process in Mikimoto was quite complex because you were exploring where to place openings and then you were calculating the load stress in the wall and then you would place another opening so the layout of the façade is not totally random; it is a combination of random and structural calculations. The arrangement of the openings is not arbitrary but follows the inner logic of the wall. A similar synthesis of free form and perfect structural logic was achieved by Gaudi. You can design optimized free forms more efficiently today because you have new computer tools and software. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes. Until 20 years ago, we were unable to proceed with plans to make random buildings just like that. However, now we can use technology and run simulations to predict and fix any unpredictable problem using the laws of physics. Looking at Gaudi, we find it interesting that he needed ten years to complete something that nowadays with simulation would take only one week. (npi) (tiaa) oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju MIKIMOTO Ginza 2, Chuo-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 2003 – 2005 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 TOD’S Omotesando Building, Shibuya-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 2002 – 2004 ORIS — Jedan od učinaka koji ste željeli postići je da unutrašnje i vanjske površine imaju identične završetke. To ste, primjerice, uveli u zgradi TOD’S Omotesando. U Tami je isti slučaj. Što je tome razlog? ¶ Toyo ito — Do Sendaia je transparentnost bila samo u staklu, ali da sam koristio više stakla, izgledalo bi kao da je zid, pa sam htio pronaći neki drugi način za rješavanje unutrašnjeg i vanjskog. U TOD’S-u je zid izvana i iznutra potpuno isti. Dakle, kada ljudi uđu, osjećaju se kao da su vani. To mi je bilo novo otkriće. Kasnije sam to pokušao ponovno u Mikimoto Ginza 2. ORIS — Proces projektiranja u Mikimotou je bio prilično složen jer ste istraživali razmještaj otvora, a onda su se izračunavala opterećenja u zidu i potom bi smjestili drugi otvor tako da izgled pročelja nije posve slučajan. To je kombinacija slučajnosti i statičkog izračuna. Raspored otvora nije proizvoljan, već slijedi unutarnju logiku zida. Sličnu sintezu slobodne forme i savršene konstruktivne logike postigao je Gaudi. Danas je moguće učinkovitije projektirati optimizirane slobodne forme jer postoje novi računalni alati i softveri. ¶ Toyo ito — Da. Do prije dvadeset godina nismo bili u mogućnosti tako lako projektirati zgrade s kompleksnim strukturama. Međutim, sada možemo koristiti tehnologiju i koristiti simulacije kako bismo predvidjeli i popravili neki nepredviđeni problem koristeći zakone fizike. Gledajući Gaudija, zanimljivo je da je njemu bilo potrebno deset godina da dovrši nešto za što bi nam danas sa simulacijom bilo potrebno samo tjedan dana. MIKIMOTO Ginza 2, Chuo-ku, Tokio, Japan, 2003. – 2005. 34 Zgrada TOD’S Omotesando, Shibuya-ku, Tokio, Japan, 2002. – 2004. toyo Ito, Interview 35 ORIS — Je li ovo iskustvo sa slobodnim oblikovanjem vertikalnih konstruktivnih elemenata utjecalo na nove koncepte trodimenzionalnog zaobljenih prostora koje ste upotrijebili u zgradi Taichung Metropolitan Opera i drugim projektima? Rekao bih da je ovo iskustvo vertikalnih elemenata omogućilo početak istraživanja i korištenja prostora poput špilja. ¶ Toyo ito — Koristeći tehnologiju računalnih simulacija koja je dostupna danas, u mogućnosti smo napraviti složenu trodimenzionalnu arhitekturu. Sada možemo osmisliti i izračunati gotovo bilo što, ali nije jednostavno tako nešto izvesti. Na kraju je onaj koji gradi čovjek. Analiza je sada moguća, ali izgradnja je vrlo teška. Nije tako skupo, ali uvijek iziskuje borbu s građevinskom tvrtkom. Možda će u bliskoj budućnosti u izgradnji pomoći robotska tehnologija. The New ‘Real’ in Architecture, retrospektivna izložba Toya Ita, Tokyo Opera City Art Gallery, Tokio, Japan, 2006. ORIS — Did this experience with the free shaping of vertical structural elements influence the new concepts of threedimensional space you introduced in the Taichung Metropolitan Opera House and other projects? I would say that this experience of vertical elements enabled you to start with the exploration and investigation of cave-like spaces. ¶ Toyo ito — Using the technology of computer simulations available today, we are able to make complex three-dimensional architecture. Now we can design and calculate almost anything but to make something like that is very difficult, because eventually the last person making the structure is human. Analysis is now possible but construction is very difficult. It’s not so expensive but it always involves fights with the construction company. Maybe robot technology will help construction in the near future. Zgrada za Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN, Higashi-ku, Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan, 2002. – 2005. Building for Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN, Higashi-ku, Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan, 2002 – 2005 (tiaa) Zgrada za Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN, Higashi-ku, Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan, 2002. – 2005. Building for Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN, Higashi-ku, Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan, 2002 – 2005 The New ‘Real’ in Architecture, Toyo Ito retrospective exhibition, Tokyo Opera City Art Gallery, Tokyo, Japan, 2006 (npi) 36 (nc) oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 37 Godinu dana nakon otvaranja, čuo sam od osoblja u Medijateci da su se navike starijih ljudi promijenile. To je bilo jako lijepo Metropolitan Opera Taichung, Taichung, Tajvan, 2005., maketa – konceptualna faza One year after the opening, I heard from the staff in Mediatheque that older people’s habits had changed. It was very nice Taichung Metropolitan Opera House, Taichung, Taiwan, 2005, model – conceptual phase ORIS — Što je razlog za uvođenje ovog novog prostornog koncepta, za više organsku arhitekturu koja sliči Kieslerovoj Beskrajnoj kući? Zašto ste počeli s istraživanjem arhitekture koja nalikuje krajoliku gdje podovi više nisu ravni, već savinuti? ¶ Toyo ito — To je tema o granicama. Kada idemo na operu ili na koncert, obično ulazimo u zgradu izvana, hodamo po podu i uđemo u dvoranu. Pitao sam se je li moguće promijeniti taj proces, da uđemo u dvoranu, ali još uvijek imamo osjećaj da smo vani. Htio sam osmisliti takvu arhitekturu. To mi je bio izazov. Figurativno rečeno, unutar ljudskog tijela postoji mnogo cijevi, a kad ljudi jedu hranu, ona je u njihovom želucu. Je li taj želudac unutra ili izvana? Možemo reći da je oboje. ORIS — Surađivali ste s Andreom Branzijem. Kako se to dogodilo? Je li to bilo zato što cijenite njegov rad ili je on vama prišao? Kako ste se upoznali? ¶ Toyo ito — Kad smo zajedno radili, nacrtao bih neke skice, a on bi mi uvijek objasnio koncept skice. Bio je to vrlo dobar odnos. Moje zamagljene vizije rastumačene su mi riječima, a zatim su mi te misli postale jasne. Kad dizajnira proizvode, on je genij. Uvijek uživa u procesu. ORIS — What is the reason for introducing this new spatial concept, for more organic architecture which resembles Kiesler’s Endless House for example? Why did you start with the exploration of landscape like architecture where the floor is no longer flat but folds? ¶ Toyo ito — This is an issue about boundaries. Usually when we go to the opera or a concert, we enter the building from the outside, walk on the floor and enter the hall. I wondered if it would be possible to change that process, to be able to enter the hall but still have the feeling that we are outside. I wanted to make that kind of architecture, that was a challenge for me. Figuratively speaking, inside the human body there are a lot of tubes, and when humans eat food that food is in their stomach. Is that stomach inside or outside? We can say it is both. ORIS — You collaborated with Andrea Branzi. How did it happen, was it because of an affinity to his work or did he approach you, how did you meet? ¶ Toyo ito — When we worked together I drew some image and he always explained the concept of my image. It was a very good relationship. My cloudy visions were explained to me with words, and then those thoughts became clear to me. When he designs products, he is a genius. He always enjoys the ride. Metropolitan Opera Taichung, Taichung, Tajvan, 2005., presjeci Taichung Metropolitan Opera House, Taichung, Taiwan, 2005, sections 38 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 39 Muzej arhitekture, Imabari, Imabari, Ehime, Japan, 2008. – 2011. Museum of Architecture, Imabari, Imabari, Ehime, Japan, 2008 – 2011 40 ORIS — Krećete se u smjeru ne-euklidske arhitekture. Razmišljate li o tome kao o naprednom obliku javnog prostora? Mislite li da će bogatije prostorne konfiguracije potaknuti više življih društvenih susreta? Kako protumačiti ovaj novi tip prostora? Kako će ga ljudi doživjeti? ¶ Toyo ito — Podzemna konstrukcija zgrade Taichung Metropolitan Opera je završena i sada se ide prema gore, iznad površine tla, a ja to mogu osjetiti sada, vrlo djelomično, unutar trodimenzionalnog prostora. Mogu zamisliti ove prostore i oni su stvarno fluidni. Naravno, možda jedno staklo odvaja unutrašnje i vanjsko. U velikom parku je to tako da ljudi hodaju i nesvjesno prošeću unutra i iskuse stepenice, predvorje i ulazni prostor. Možda je to potpuno drugačiji tip ulaznog prostora i predvorja, to je tekući prostor. ORIS — Testirali ste pregibanje horizontalnih ploha u Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN u Fukuoki, ali ovoga puta je krov bio presavijen. Počeli ste s istraživanjem krajolika kao arhitekture. Mislite li da se u vašem radu arhitektura i krajolik sve više približavaju? ¶ Toyo ito — Da, to je moj ideal prostora. Kad sam imao retrospektivnu izložbu, dizajnirao sam valoviti pod i svi ljudi, posebice djeca, ušli su u taj prostor i počeli trčati ili sjediti. Pregibi su prostorna konfiguracija u kojoj se ljudi osjećaju kao da su vani. Uvijek želim stvoriti prostor koji ‘osobu odvodi van’. ORIS — Iznimne su ove vrste naprednih projekata i novih prostornih koncepata. No 99% izgrađene okoline je vrlo jednostavno i odvija se na uobičajen način. Ako zamislimo da je cijeli grad izgrađen kao kontinuirani fluidni prostor, to bi moglo biti u koliziji s generičkom povijesti grada. Možda gradovi trebaju neutralno tkivo. Mislite li da grad može biti projektiran kao beskrajan valoviti prostor ili ovaj novi koncept treba biti rezerviran samo za javne zgrade ili specifične situacije? ¶ Toyo ito — U mom umu prostor se uvijek se nastavlja i širi, ali svaka arhitektura ima granicu. Granica za mene nije pročelje, pitanje granica je pitanje društva. U mom umu ne postoji kraj. To je na neki način apstraktni prostor. Ne mogu zamisliti da cijeli grad postaje jedan valoviti prostor; međutim, grad i krajobrazne strukture su fleksibilniji i mogli bi se proširiti i postati više nalik starijim zgradama. ORIS — You are moving in the direction of non-Euclidian architecture. Do you think about it as an advanced form of public space? Do you think that richer spatial configurations are going to stimulate more vibrant social encounters? What is the reading of this new type of space, how are people going to experience it? ¶ Toyo ito — The underground construction of Taichung Metropolitan Opera House is finished and now it is going up above the ground and I can feel now, very partially, inside the three-dimensional spaces. I can imagine these spaces and they are really fluid. Of course maybe one glass cuts inside and outside. It is in a big park so people walk around the park and unconsciously walk through the inside and there are steps and the experience of the foyer and the hall. Maybe it’s a completely different type of entrance hall and foyer, it’s a liquid space. ORIS — You tested undulating floors in the Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN in Fukuoka but it was the roof which was folded. At that point you started the exploration of this landscape like architecture. Do you think that architecture and landscape are increasingly coming together in your work? ¶ Toyo ito — Yes, it is my ideal of space. When I had a retrospective exhibition I designed a wavy floor and everyone, especially children, went inside that space and started running or sitting. Webbing is a spatial configuration in which people feel as though they are outside. I always want to create a space which ‘takes one outside’. ORIS — These types of advanced projects and new spatial concepts are exceptional. But 99% of the built environment is very simple and done in an ordinary way. If we think of a whole city built as continuous fluid space it could be in collision with the generic history of the city, maybe cities do need this neutral tissue. Do you think that a city can be constituted as endless undulating space, or this new concept should be reserved only for public buildings or specific situations? ¶ Toyo ito — In my mind space is always continuing and expanding, but all architecture has a boundary. The boundary is not a façade for me, it’s just social. In my mind there is no ending. It is in a way an abstract space. I cannot imagine a whole city becoming one undulated space; however, city and landscape structure are more flexible and could expand and become more like older buildings here. ORIS — Istraživali ste i projektirali prostore koji su fluidni i pokušali ste se odmaknuti od konvencionalnog pojma granica. Možemo li se odnositi prema tom konceptu kao odjeku japanske graditeljske tradicije gdje se prostor slobodno proteže u svakom smjeru? ¶ Toyo ito — Stare japanske zgrade imale su razgraničenje unutarnjeg i vanjskog. One nikada nisu odvojene jednim čvrstim zidom, nego umjesto toga s puno lakih pregrada. Vjerujem da takav način gradnje ima budućnost u današnjoj arhitekturi. Japanska moderna arhitektura bila je pod utjecajem Europljana posljednjih sto godina. Zatim se način izgradnje zgrade promijenio, ako govorimo o razdvajanju vanjskog i unutarnjeg i odvajanju prostora. Ipak vjerujem da je taj utjecaj sada gotov. ORIS — You research and design spaces which are fluid and try to move away from the conventional notion of boundaries. Can we relate to this concept as an echo of Japanese architectural tradition where space freely extends in every direction? ¶ Toyo ito — Old Japanese buildings had a separation between outside and inside. They are never separated by one strong wall, but instead with lots of light partitions. I believe that way of building has a future in today’s architecture. Japanese modern architecture was influenced by Europeans for the last hundred years. Then the style of making buildings changed, talking about separation of inside and outside and separation of spaces. Still I believe that influence is now over. oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview (da) 41 42 ORIS — Utjecali ste na novu generaciju japanskih arhitekata: Kazuyo Sejima radila je s vama, puno ste pomogli Sou Fujimotu, mnogi ljudi prošli su kroz vašu školu. Prepoznajete li sličnosti između njihovih koncepata i svojeg pristupa? Mislite li da postoji takva stvar kao što je Ito škola? ¶ Toyo ito — Nisam toga svjestan. Što se tiče Kazuyo Sejime i Akihisa Hirata, oni su radili u mojem uredu, pa kad bismo nešto projektirali zajedno, dosta smo raspravljali. Mislim da nije bilo hijerarhije u radu s njima, čak ni kada su tek stigli u ured. Naravno, prvo bih im objasnio osnovnu koncepciju novog projekta, a nakon toga su imali slobodu napraviti crteže, skice i u toj fazi nije bilo hijerarhije ako sam osjećao da su ideje novaka bile dobre. Sljedećeg dana ponovno smo mijenjali, mijenjali, mijenjali i mijenjali na vrlo demokratski način. ORIS — Inicirali ste i projektirali Arhitektonski muzej u Imabari. Vaše aktivnosti uvijek su bile vezane za komuniciranje putem arhitekture - izlaganjem, pisanjem, podučavanjem. To nije bila samo praksa. Koja je bila vaša namjera s muzejom i u kakvoj je vezi sa suvremenim problemima? ¶ Toyo ito — U muzejima u Japanu nema arhitekture pa sam želio da šira publika koja posjeti muzej nešto sazna o suvremenoj arhitekturi. Za mene arhitektura nije samo projektiranje i realiziracija vlastitih radova. O arhitekturi raspravljam s javnosti, studentima, s djecom, o tome kako pomoći nekom lokalnom području, području pogođenom tsunamijem, mojem muzejskom području. Želimo graditi zgrade u jedinstvu jedne misli. Što je arhitektura i za koga je radimo, to su temeljna pitanja, a odgovaramo na njih raznim aktivnostima. Posjećivao sam područje pogođeno tsunamijem, pogotovo Kamaishi, više od pet puta mjesečno, i razgovarao sam mnogo puta s ljudima koji su izgubili svoje domove. Oni razmišljaju o svojoj zajednici, svojoj budućnosti, sigurnosti i gradu čak i više od lokalnih vlasti. Kad razgovaram s njima, predstave mi svoja razmišljanja i vizije o svojoj budućnosti i kako su je zamislili. To je stvarno uzbudljivo jer oni ne očekuju financijsku pomoć od mene, nego zahtijevaju da projektiram njihovu budućnost. ORIS — You have influenced a new generation of Japanese architects: Kazuyo Sejima worked with you, you helped Sou Fujimoto a lot, many people went through your school. Can you recognize similarities between their concepts and your approach? Do you think that there is such a thing as the Ito school? ¶ Toyo ito — I am not conscious of that. As for Kazuyo Sejima and Akihisa Hirata they were working in my office so when we designed something together, we discussed a lot. I think I had no hierarchy working with them even if they were freshmen. Of course, first I tell them the very basic conceptual image of the new project and after that they are very free to make drawings, sketches and at that stage there’s no hierarchy if I feel the freshmen’s ideas are nice. The next day, we are changing again, changing, changing, changing in a very democratic way. ORIS — You initiated and designed the architectural museum in Imabari. Your activities have always been about communicating architecture – exhibiting, writing, teaching, it was not only practice. What was your intention and how is it related to your contemporary concerns? ¶ Toyo ito — There is no architecture in museums in Japan so I want that general audience visiting the museum to know about contemporary architecture. For me, architecture is not only designing and realizing my works, but also discussing them with the general public, students, children, how to help the local area, the tsunami area, my museum area. We want to construct buildings in a unity of one thought. What is architecture and for whom are we making it, they are the fundamental questions and by various activities we are answering those questions. I visited the tsunami area, especially Kamaishi more than five times every month and I talked many times with people who lost their houses. They lost their homes and not just their homes, they are thinking about their community, their future, safety and the city, even more than the local government. When I talk to them they present me with their thoughts and vision about their future and how they imagine it. For me that is really exiting since they don’t expect financial aid from me, instead they are asking me to design their future. oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 43
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